Transcript
Red D: Pudding?
Jamie: noted uh in answer to our curious listeners thoughts uh red does want this podcast to be recorded uh she asked me if she should hit record and i told her that she should if she wants us to be recorded so she clearly does she clearly wants you to meet us in the world of Jane Reade's children so No hands up. Let's hit the jingle and let's go, people.
Red D: That's funny because it actually reminds me of... My hip hop teacher was like, I can't answer questions that are in your head. You have to say them out loud. Sorry.
Jamie: I failed to hear what you failed to communicate and right now I'm failing to hear the jingle.
Red D: You can hear the jingle now, right?
Jen: no
Jamie: Oh no.
Jen: No jiggle.
Red D: ah thinkle That's just...
Jamie: Yeah, you can. I can.
Jen: That's what I was putting my hand up to say, where's the jiggle?
Jamie: Yeah. Dude, you just look like you're doing the Donald Trump dance.
Red D: Oh, you know why I thought you waved your hand? It's always the trap dance to the song.
Jen: Oh yeah.
Jamie: No, but you did we can't hear the jingle.
Jen: No! la
Jamie: Stop the podcast.
Red D: i can't Make you hear the jingle if you can't.
Jamie: Play the jingle! Play the jingle, Movistar!
Red D: The audience will hear the jingle, but I don't know why you can't.
Jamie: Why can't I hear the jingle?
Jen: I will live.
Red D: Zen Costa has been doing some upgrades, so I have to assume...
Jamie: I need to - Well, have a Will Ferrell fit!
Red D: I'll tell you when the jingle's over, but that is really annoying.
Jamie: I want to now do a little free interpretative dance.
Red D: But Jenny, you know when you raised your hand?
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Do interpretative dance.
Red D: I accidentally hit the jingle, then turned it off. So I thought you had noticed that. So then I hit play again, and the jingle...
Jen: I was gonna say, what i'm I'm also... really concerned about the fact that Jamie says no hands up because my timing is horrendous and I'm always going to accidentally Interrupt. If I can't put my hand up...
Jamie: Perfect. It'll massively lead into the creative anarchy that I'm trying to drive. We're going for synergy, folks. We're going for diversity of insight.
Red D: me No hands up when we're dancing.
Jamie: We're going for the insight that conflict brings. or you know you can interpretatively dance it red but We need this jingle and we need it interpreted.
Red D: The jingle has played and I have to ask the question.
Jamie: Well, that was in our... Right, listeners, I'm really sorry. This is going to be an immensely grumpy episode. One, because there's going to be no hands and Jenny will interrupt us taking that particular laurel from myself.
Jamie: And two, because we weren't able to hear the jingle and...
Red D: Do you want me to do a test? Do you want me to try play again and see what happens? We don't have to listen to the whole thing.
Jamie: Yes, yes I do.
Red D: Maybe it's because I hit play then. accidentally stopped it and then hit play again. uh
Jamie: This is the way any podcast should be run.
Jen: I didn't hear it.
Jamie: The rabble should be running the show.
Red D: professionally.
Jamie: The rabble should run the riot.
Red D: Okay, it's playing. Can you hear it?
Jamie: Uh... No because you're not interpretatively dancing it.
Jen: No.
Red D: This is so strange. I see this.
Jamie: That's a great argument to start.
Jen: Good night.
Red D: it
Jen: I had big plans for the jingle. I was going to talk, you know how you like us to talk over the jingle, Red?
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: Yes, I do like that.
Jen: And I had something to talk about over the jingle, which...
Jamie: I was... I was going to say the script was very good.
Red D: Please go ahead because the jingle is playing.
Jen: I could not hear the jingle but I was gonna say... How much do you love the little clip I sent you completely unrelated to Star Trek? but of the form Phil is seen. In the hunt. the film hunt for the wilder people
Red D: Is that a real film? Because I want to watch it.
Jamie: and I'm wondering if that became an issue yet.
Jen: watched it oh yeah no i think you'd love it definitely definitely watch it hunt hunt for them
Red D: No.
Red D: Those form fillers. I did really enjoy that line.
Jen: Oh.
Jamie: What this podcast is clearly missing is no mercy.
Jen: us us
Jamie: Enough! You're good. Thank you.
Red D: Okay, I have stopped playing the jingle.
Jamie: Good night.
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Have you indeed?
Red D: and
Jamie: I would never know if you'd say come here.
Red D: There's a new teleprompter feature, so maybe that's breaking the jingle feature. I can't explain.
Jamie: I don't know, but if there's any more of this, I'm going to repost the Bridget Jones meme that I put into the notes of, uh... Bridget Jones in Jim Jams gang all by myself.
Red D: Kind of...
Jamie: Don't want to be me all by myself. any anymore.
Red D: Well, you...
Jamie: Hello, dear friends, dear listeners, welcome.
Red D: Will you explain that?
Jamie: Welcome, I say. to this episode of Janeway's children in which we will be talking about season 3 episode 19 Rise. It is an absolute delight to have you... have you with us. Uh... With me we have ah the R and the J that compromise the other two of the initials of Janeway's children. It's great to have you both. How are you both doing?
Red D: All good. And you know what I noticed when I played this episode on Netflix? I think it's called... rise because it has an exclamation point which i did not include in the it's not how it's listed on um
Jamie: It's implicit by the fact you gave it to me to moderate that there's an exclamation mark.
Red D: That's true. But I don't know if you noticed that because I don't think it's listed like that on Wikipedia. but when i Oh, sorry.
Jamie: It is.
Red D: Amazon.
Jamie: It is, however, on Apple TV, by which I watch this, by which people will judge exactly how anachronistically millennial or baby boomer or boomer baby a baby boomer i actually am anyhow um It's great to be discussing this. I think traditionally we'd go with a one minute summary.
Red D: Correct.
Jamie: Excellent, crack on.
Red D: No, that one of us is done by you unless Jamie wants to volunteer.
Jamie: No one specified that.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: No one specified that in the breach. But as you insist, so vociferously, people. I didn't have anything prepared, but I'll do it all the same. ah So... in this.
Jamie: pretty much the prime example of a Star Trek Voyager in which Neelix is used as the generator of the plot through ineptitude. uh we find our intrepid crew trying to save a colony populated by a species called the nizu which is being bombarded by strangely resistant asteroids which resist vaporization by the cream of
Jamie: Federation weapon systems. unvaporizing yet another asteroid and generating hundreds of fragments that fool. to the planet's surface threatening the colonies Our intrepid crew discover... more than they thought they were biting off because these asteroids are in fact hardened and guidance system enabled weapons that pertain to a species known as the Itanians.
Jamie: as the crew of star trek voyager unravel this plot they go to the surface where a colossal storm has been generated by asteroid fragments and they need to find their way out Find it.
Jamie: a partially or less than partially functional maglev orbital tether on which Tuvok and Neelix form the crack team. guessing. the surviving colonists out of trouble and Neelix and Tuvok into it as they strive to rise above the storm and get back in touch with the crew.
Jamie: As they're doing this, a strange alien spaceship... approaches. and an oncoming catastrophic conflict looms. How was that?
Red D: Jamie, that was brilliant. I'm sorry. I'm like, that was so helpful to listen to before I started diving in. And it was brilliant. and Sorry, Jenny. I kind of jumped in there.
Jen: Yep, I agree.
Jamie: Jenny disagrees, but she shows disagreement balance.
Jen: Your brilliance.
Jamie: Um, That's okay.
Red D: This is why we get you to do the one minute summary.
Jamie: you
Red D: I just would not be able to.
Jamie: Well, I just feel like it's the one aspect of these things that hasn't really varied. um But, you know... Does anyone, apart from the WAG, who decided they were going to post a photo of an orbital tether in response to the question being asked, what is an orbital tether? ah or indeed the one who posted the Bridget Jones meme, would anyone like to give us an initial reaction?
Jen: Well, I don't know what to say anything here because I can't raise my hand, so I don't know.
Red D: I think Jenny. Yep.
Jen: See, I accidentally talked over red there.
Jamie: Well, that's exactly it. You don't raise your hand, you just say. It's human conversation.
Jen: What did I just say? I don't...
Jamie: Excellent. We want you to talk over me, we want you to talk over Red. This is Interrupt City.
Jen: Bye -bye.
Jamie: apart from the fact it's rise.
Jen: listeners can't hear because they have multiple voices anyway uh Yeah, I quite like this one and I remembered it immediately. and like That rarely happens. um Normally it's about halfway through and I remember it. so It must have been a good one.
Jamie: Excellent.
Red D: Yeah, I did not quite i didn't remember it as immediately but i saw your comment when i went to make my notes um and that you remembered immediately and then i remembered it as soon as i saw the tenor And then I had all flashbacks to Tuvok and being an action hero and everything. And I was like, oh, yes, this is a good episode. So.
Red D: That would be our initial direction.
Jamie: Excellent. uh someone has a cool thing is now the time or should we go a little bit later with it
Red D: Oh yeah, sorry, I kind of discarded one cool thing, but to answer Jamie's question that he sent me and to bring Jenny up to speed, one cool thing is I had a baby niece on the 23rd of August.
Jamie: ah
Red D: um My sister had her baby, little baby girl.
Jen: pancreas
Jamie: Amen. See you.
Red D: Rosa Rosa Rosa. If anyone knows Brooklyn Nine -Nine, they can sing that from the Pontiac Bandit.
Jamie: like Can I say something so unbelievably sad, Red?
Red D: Oh no. not I'm doing this one cool thing.
Jamie: See you. I, I, my memory is so bad that you told me that literally before the start of the podcast. And then I looked at the note and I thought that what you were saying was one cool thing about this episode was there was a baby in it who grows up to be. wos on walking nine nine I am so, so dopey.
Red D: You know, every now and again I just like to use this episode for my own personal... in memoriam or Like, I don't know, acknowledge like, I'll just take something, so.
Jamie: miss
Jen: listen
Jamie: is
Red D: um But since you asked the question in the chat. i just answer to tip. But that's all.
Jen: Congrats! And how is mother doing?
Red D: I think they're doing pretty well. I think it's now sleep deprived time.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: so
Jen: Yeah. They all went okay. little smoothly.
Red D: Yes, yes, that all went that all went very, very smoothly actually.
Jen: oh good
Red D: Yep.
Jen: oh Congrats!
Jamie: Right. Marvellous news. Marvellous. Thank you for covering my memory loss blushes. and
Red D: The funniest thing, oh sorry, I'm going to add some more to this, but the her baby looks exactly like Gabby when she was born.
Jamie: Jenny? No, no.
Jamie: oh
Red D: and i was eight years old when gabby was born so i still remember so when i was holding her i was like Who is this?
Jen: wow
Red D: Is it Gabby?
Jamie: with professional
Red D: Is it Rosa?
Jen: Oh my gosh.
Red D: things.
Jen: Huh?
Red D: Yeah, like exactly. It's really funny. Sorry, back to you Jamie.
Jamie: No, no, not at all. Don't worry about it. I was just going to say that in line with the principle that I apply ruthless discipline as a way to have a fun podcast. I think it's time we cracked on with what folk thought about this so Over to you Jenny first. hit Hit us and I shall sort of vibe and...
Jamie: Drawing folks things are... and bring things in and weave it and typically you know hive spin in the way that i do
Jen: ah Okay.
Jamie: Don't expect sequential order.
Red D: i'm sorry i wrote so many points you can ignore a lot of them jamie sorry
Jamie: Uh... Yeah, I think you should start with Neelix's CV, Red. No, sorry, sorry, Jenny, go for it.
Jen: ah Well, my first... point was. This one I think part of the reason I like this one is it reminds me a lot of the modern -day Star Trek movie Especially the one where they have that Nero character who has this drill that he drills down into planets and...
Jamie: system
Jen: makes a big hole so he can shove red matter in it to create a black hole at the centre of planets, if I'm remembering all this detail correctly.
Jamie: into darkness.
Jamie: Yep. Yeah.
Jen: but yeah there's this whole scene where they're on that i know it's not a tether but it just seems like a tether and they're having fight scenes on it and and several people fall off it and um I don't know if maybe they got some of that ideas from this episode but All right. It just really reminds me of that one and I love those movies. um plus i feel like it's a mixture of genres this one all the all the good genuine
Jen: genres. sort of scientific but also a bit of a mystery, a little spy thriller action in there. um So I was a fan of this one. and it's a Neelix and fully Neelix one which I really like and that's quite rare
Jamie: You clearly lined up, Red, to get me to be comparing on a Neelix -led one.
Red D: but
Jamie: You missed.
Red D: That's just unlucky timing.
Jamie: He migs you.
Jamie: Oh, no.
Red D: I mean... Am I allowed to respond to what Jenny said there, Jamie?
Jen: No.
Red D: Or are you going to bring me in?
Jen: So.
Jamie: What do you think?
Red D: and don know
Jamie: and
Red D: ah
Jamie: I think I'm just gonna keep you guessing. you You're gonna have to guess what's the correct answer to that question.
Red D: I'm gonna guess yes, because... ah
Jamie: Wrong! On to my next test.
Red D: What? so
Jamie: Easy. Go for it.
Red D: I mean, once I saw that you mentioned that it's like, it reminds me of uh i'm sorry gosh it reminds you of like your kind of the star trek movies i felt like i saw a lot of movie elements i mean it was almost like a little action movie this episode
Jen: and
Red D: um i mean they were I mean, maybe not, I didn't do an in -depth analysis, but a couple of things that happened after I saw your comment. like um and not i mean it's not really spoilers and it is a bit of jumping around a bit but the whole I mean, there's quite an action sequence on the tether. when Tuvok gets thrown off the side and then he's secretly like hanging on. I mean, that's classic action movie stuff. Then when...
Red D: and the guy goes back inside and they're like where's tubac he's like mr tubac has returned to the surface which is such a classic action movie i don't align you know it's like that
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: And then when it comes back at the end when... um you know, they get rid of Skla and Neonix gets to use the line again. and then um And also the fact that they find that device on the roof of the tether that has all the answers to the problem that they find themselves in. And at the end...
Red D: um you know it has the kind of schema i don't know not schematics but
Jen: and
Jamie: Deus Ex Machina much?
Red D: Exactly. It is an XDS machine, which I've never really quite understood. And then I saw it happening. I was like, ah, that's an XDS machine. That's just a little device or whatever that can just solve this impossible problem there. And at the end, which... I think they do use them. I mean, obviously they use it in TV and movies, but.
Red D: I just think you... I saw a lot of... i don't know action movie elements once i saw your comment um maybe i just
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: me
Red D: made them up but that's how I interpreted it.
Jamie: I would agree with that. Although, weirdly, I also saw a comment. Did anyone... so i i when i was a kid my parents would record um Popeye cartoons for me and for some bizarre reason This one, when they're in the maglev. uh this sort of enclosed thing which doesn't have enough oxygen and everything or food and everything like that i don't know why that there was a Popeye.
Jamie: in which He basically underwent astronaut training. i was sort of locked into isolation and like with all the supplies running out and things like that for like an extended period of time of whatever reason that maglev really reminded me of that uh for more sort of cramped comparts and uh
Red D: That's funny.
Jamie: you know primitive mechanisms than you typically see on Star Trek. And I was very much reminded of it. I don't know why. um So it's strange all of the sorts of heart strings that these things can pluck.
Red D: yeah definitely and i love that little anecdote from your childhood jamie thank you for sharing
Jamie: Not sure. would you Would you care to repay me by, um...
Red D: Let's go.
Jamie: giving us a couple of your thoughts on it. uh more than one absolutely viable given the fact that uh you you seem gosh how many do you have
Red D: I won't mention them all. um i guess coming back to a scene that we actually discussed offline and the thing that you picked up jenny i think you definitely oh sorry ad but i did love um
Jamie: what's going on in the background it seems like someone's shooting your side of the screen
Red D: I know I just keep dropping my phone.
Jamie: and the shots fired in South London.
Red D: I'm very sorry. I'm sorry. and No shots being fired right now. I can. Confirm.
Jamie: Can you guarantee us that?
Red D: There are actually very few shot spiders.
Jamie: All of South London? All of South London?
Red D: They could be fireworks, but they're not. um
Jamie: Oh, those shots, I can count, can't I?
Red D: um so i'll skip my first point because that's very random but when we get to the point i guess where the doctor is discussing with an elix and elix is saying how you know Tuvok doesn't, I guess, respect him or like him.
Red D: I don't have a photographic memory like the two of you. um I did like the doctor's advice, which was, you know,
Jamie: that's me
Red D: try and restrain your enthusiasm because I was like that is such a good advice but Why is people's enthusiasm sometimes so annoying? You know like I think we've been in a situation where well I have where I'm a bit annoyed by someone just being too keen Too eager.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: And what is that dynamic there, I wonder?
Jamie: grumpiness.
Red D: So I thought... Yeah, maybe. But why?
Jamie: Thanks.
Red D: I guess.
Jamie: Sorry, I was trying to say.
Jen: maybe Maybe it's an evolutionary thing. I wonder...
Red D: Thank you Jenny, go ahead.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I wonder, wonder why I'm just thinking out loud.
Jamie: Well, I know I least think I know what is
Jen: to be guarded with people who appear to be very um very enthusiastic. um
Red D: Maybe they're out to get you.
Jen: Maybe.
Red D: Yeah, that's true.
Jen: Well, maybe um
Jamie: No, no, no, no, no, no. As an evolutionary change, it makes perfect sense, right? If you think that humans evolved in sort of village side groups of people. And if you just immediately started charging around behind whoever was being enthusiastic without any thought.
Jamie: survivability of the village would instantly plummet because no one would actually do any thinking so the whole sort of I find the enthusiasm annoying slash off -putting thing.
Red D: oh
Jamie: I think is an evolutionary dynamic. designed to make groups. consider decisions more carefully and social groups consider them rather than just running around just because someone is being a bit energetic and enthusiastic.
Red D: That's very interesting. Very.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: what
Jen: Yeah, maybe that. Dangerous. Someone with. He's running around making a little noise. and um you know, in a hunting. environment.
Jamie: Well, yeah
Jen: um
Jamie: Exactly.
Jen: They're gonna... um risk
Jamie: you know, or
Jen: Losing the prey.
Jamie: Or some someone who, for instance... um overly readily becomes religiously fanatical or something like that and all of the consequences that can bring. in fragile social ecosystem which is possibly only on the edge of sustainability slash managing to survive. um without having, you know, an intonation sort of phonetical.
Jamie: conflict or something like that.
Jen: Hmm. I wonder why it's annoying though. you know.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Because that's that's the mechanism that evolution is built in. So that... we don't immediately follow behind it. It's a defence mechanism.
Red D: to prevent blind following of the most enthusiastic person.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Red D: Hmm. Interesting.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm. Well, that's my theory.
Red D: But Jenny, I think. i don't know if you wrote it down somewhere else but i think you had another takeaway from a scene so Which I thought was really brilliant.
Jamie: Go for it.
Jen: oh well thank you my goodness um so this Was this so what I was mentioning earlier about?
Red D: The doctor.
Jen: what we should we should all take away from what the doctor says yes the brilliant doctor yes were he um
Jamie: Yes. Listen. Hmm.
Jen: is ah talking to Neelix about Tuvok and saying, yes, yes, Tuvok is quite hard to impress. And the Doctor's take on it is that He doesn't like to... Tuvok doesn't like to express to the doctor how brilliant he is.
Jen: um that's just his personality he doesn't like to express it much but the doctor has absolutely no um thought that it might be because perhaps he doesn't think that the product is brilliant.
Jen: I just i just think that is so self -assured.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: I think we should all take some of that.
Jamie: He said.
Jen: self -confidence ourselves. for future when people are not, you know...
Jamie: giving us the recognition of what we meant
Jen: giving us the correct praise for our brilliance, it's because it's a character flaw in them.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: And then...
Jamie: Oh, I know.
Red D: and then
Jamie: Not that I'm glad.
Jen: It's nothing to do with our lack of brilliance.
Jamie: they They just inexplicably don't. comment on my brilliance. Perfect, I completely agree.
Red D: Enough.
Jen: That's it's all about them.
Jamie: Not just period, just period.
Jen: and
Red D: I love it
Jamie: Yeah. The Doctor didn't say enough. He was just like, inexplicably, he doesn't comment on my brilliance, which... yeah so i i mean i sort of think and going from that to the sort of a ability binary between uh Tuvok and Neelix, I think that This sort of binary incapability actually demonstrates the performance value add of diversity because by being so extreme in one way of performing of totally a very narrow
Jamie: classification of logical thinking and logical operation. To Vogue. actually limits and constrains his ability levels in such a way that actually adding I'm going to say this from gritted teeth, as I cannot believe I'm about to...
Red D: hello
Jamie: dignify. Oh my god, that's the biggest spider I've ever seen in my life. in room with me i'm not I can't believe I'm going to dignify Neelix by...
Jen: Oh no.
Jamie: ah describing him as having a abilities but adding his ability set of morale and people engagement and some instinctive logic to to 2vox toolset actually does expand his ability level and the likely evolutionary ability of that group to survive.
Jamie: and I think it's quite a nice demonstration of the value add of diversity of ability and indeed the comparative advantage theory as written by David Ricardo for those of you of you who do eat
Red D: Ricardo!
Jamie: David Ricardo.
Red D: Yes, like the doctor, the actor, the doctor.
Jamie: Ah, right, so I wasn't aware of that, of the Doctor's name.
Jen: man
Jamie: Shame on me. but You were obviously both aware of David Ricardo, The Economic. So... Well, sleep.
Jen: hi
Red D: Jamie, that's why we have you on this podcast to expand our brain.
Jamie: All right. listen
Red D: And is it Ricardo or Picardo? now Let me just Google it.
Jamie: dramas also i just want to draw people's attention to this little bugger
Jen: picardy
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: oh god don't show it to them
Jamie: ah you Are you able to see this thing here?
Jen: Yeah, but fortunately it looks quite small from the screen. I don't want to see it, Jamie.
Red D: So...
Jen: or have I won't sleep.
Red D: I think that's a lesson to all men out there. It always looks small on the screen. Anyway. but
Jamie: Yeah, that's the Huntsman Spider, people.
Red D: A huntsman!
Jen: Stop.
Jamie: No, not really.
Red D: Oh. Are they thirsty? you always get those articles at this time yeah you're being invaded by spiders they just thirsty Give us some water.
Jamie: You realize a huntsman spider is an Australian spider, right?
Red D: Yeah, that seems unlikely.
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: Is that the one that can like... like bring the mouse up into it.
Jamie: No, no, it's the one that's completely harmless but enormous.
Red D: Oh, no.
Jamie: Sorry everyone, I'm completely on.
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Sorry, right, Jenny, back to you. Get us back on the straight and narrow. Less spider -phobia and more talk.
Jen: Yes.
Jamie: about.
Jen: Cool.
Jamie: trickier.
Jen: Tethers. more tether um yeah see my question is about like what what not what a tether is
Jamie: Yes. tethers
Jen: but
Red D: Yes, that's my question.
Jen: what Good, good, what are they?
Red D: Sorry, go ahead.
Jen: Can someone describe a scenario in which they use this tether? Like what is the tether for?
Jamie: Yes. in order to transport At an economically low cost, materials mine from the surface of the planet into space where they can be picked up by transport vessels without having to break orbit or go underneath the atmospheric.
Jamie: Peace.
Jen: oh my gosh that makes so much sense
Jamie: Thank you.
Jen: Thank you, Jamie.
Red D: Did you take in what he said?
Jamie: Almost as though you expected me not to say anything that made sense.
Red D: I actually didn't.
Jen: Yeah, I did. And, you know, and you know the whole there were all so there was a lot of mining going on in that planet as well.
Jamie: Well...
Red D: yeah i was gonna say i'm sure it's very good for like moving like raw materials or like bulky things Like...
Jen: so
Jamie: to be fair it is mostly left unexplained i just i've just read a lot of star trek um not star trek uh science fiction it's almost as though i find them anonymous uh science fiction things in which um an orbital tether has been one of the plot devices.
Jamie: and conflict generations. but um Cheers.
Red D: But Jenny, did you have any concerns or thoughts about, like, how tall was this tether in this specific apps episode? Did they say... 300 kilometers or something?
Jamie: Well.
Red D: Or was it?
Jen: I mean...
Red D: Am I making a...
Jen: i feel like this is very science fictiony because like there's no way
Red D: me
Jen: this would actually work, would is there? i mean
Jamie: yeah you look youon musket yeah Elon Musk is planning to do orbital tethers and things like that.
Red D: But the tether implies it's like...
Red D: Yes. Nothing. but the table Okay, the bass is on the ground. But what is it attached to out of space beyond the planet's atmosphere that is solid enough?
Jamie: Yep.
Jamie: you're thinking You're thinking in the wrong way though, because you're thinking it gets built up from the ground.
Red D: oh
Jamie: as opposed to drop down from outer space.
Jen: Yeah but wouldn't it burn up?
Red D: Interesting.
Jamie: No, because it's... effective.
Red D: It's not moving through the atmosphere, it's just in the atmosphere.
Jamie: It's not moving, it's stationary orbit. and as long as you lowered slowly enough the sort of line developers
Red D: Oh, you mean the caught thing.
Jamie: No, no, the line down to the planet as long as you load that slowly enough then actually... It would be all right. And on the way up. it's just like a hot air balloon going straight up.
Jamie: in stationary orbit slowly. so slowly enough that it doesn't actually trigger the friction that makes things burn oh
Red D: so What stops the tether from doing this?
Jamie: um because it's anchored in space and fully taught fully taught on each end though, that's the thing.
Red D: Yes, that was my point.
Jamie: so at the
Red D: but What?
Jamie: That's a light end.
Red D: What maintains the... anchor in space, the stability of the anchor in space. That's what I'm curious about.
Jamie: geo geopositioning in the same way that we have ge ah geostationary satellites that don't move. The originals.
Red D: yeah they don't move because they don't have a giant tether with a cot running up and down.
Jamie: milk.
Jamie: The thing is, if if you're staying stationary above the same point...
Red D: and like te
Jamie: Right. And you're all tethered to that point.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: And that. satellite doesn't move relative to that point.
Red D: Does it just stay?
Jamie: then... it just sort of stays in the same place the entire time
Red D: I wonder how deep the foundations of the tether are. That's them.
Jamie: i mean
Red D: anyway I have a lot of questions.
Jamie: i'm I'm giving assured answers as though like I've been to the Universitat and Neelix of you know scale, model, orbital tethers, which I think we can all agree from experience this episode, in which Neelix is tasked with getting a maglev.
Red D: but but
Jen: that
Jamie: Sorry, I thought I spotted. Oh my god, I've lost sight of the spider.
Jen: You're all good.
Red D: ah thought the spider made that banging noise. That made me very concerned.
Jamie: No, it I did too, but that's the cat that landed on the roof and I think that scared the spider away.
Red D: Okay.
Jen: Ugh.
Jamie: which is a genuinely fucking terrifying prospect, so I don't know where in the room it is. So I'm podcasting Trapped in a Room with a Giant Spider, everybody. That's no dramas. um Can someone send ah a big strong person to help me out here?
Jamie: um
Red D: Oh, Jenny, I think that's you.
Jamie: Yeah. Um... But do you know what?
Jen: Not a chance.
Jamie: I had a comment as well on the maglev, which is, I was really disappointed that we don't see much of it. like as a whole thing all the way down to the planet until the very end where it literally looks like just this spaceship.
Jamie: with a bit of a toe line below it and i thought there was so much so much missed opportunity for cinematic scale. orbital tether. Similar to...
Jamie: frankly the um the scene, I think it was from Into Darkness, the Star Trek movie, that Jenny mentioned, where Nero is... using effectively an orbital mining tether.
Jamie: to drill into the surface of a planet and you see the entire scale of something in almost geostationary orbit mining down towards the ground.
Red D: ah
Jamie: I think that would be an amazing thing to include in this episode.
Jen: Mm.
Red D: Well, this was made in 1997 or whatever. but...
Jen: a difference
Red D: Maybe I should watch Into Darkness and that will help explain answer all my tether questions.
Jen: Yeah. Although I think it's the first one.
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: I'm not sure it's into darkness, yeah.
Jamie: Is it? What's the first one called then? Star Trek?
Jen: It's a Star Trek I think isn't it?
Jamie: a
Jen: <unk> remember but because it's Nero the bad guy in that one whereas in To Darkness the sort of bad guy is
Jamie: Yeah Yeah.
Jen: Sort of. caught on. although it ends up being the um military. okay
Jamie: i Fred, it's your turn, and I think we need to get back onto what this episode was always meant to be about, which is throwing snark in Neelix's direction.
Jen: Excuse me.
Jamie: So as a guaranteed and much -loved fellow snark -chucker, chuck some snark.
Red D: Okay, so I mean, I'll go to my point in, I guess. um But... You know ah how you see all these hilarious memes of like... I don't know, sheep dogs or dogs that lied on their CV and they can't actually herd sheep or whatever.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: am Am I getting that right? Do you know what this means?
Jamie: Yes!
Red D: Or the cat that's like atop the pillar on the other pillar is like a sphinx or something. um
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: and it's like when you lie down your cv but uh I think Felix did some lying on his CV when he told Tuvok that he had...
Jamie: She's the best.
Jen: good Yeah.
Red D: to assembled or repaired 12
Jamie: Shit.
Red D: um 12. I don't know, tether systems or...
Jamie: Well, you had gloves.
Jen: yeah experience in. But it doesn't say the experience.
Jamie: is
Red D: experience in it.
Jen: was in the model versions.
Red D: oh sorry
Jen: of
Jamie: Yeah, sure.
Jen: and Just...
Red D: uh yes and then it turns out he was just working on models one tenth of the size even if they were very accurate so As much as ah I'm a fan of Helix, that is... I think.
Red D: playing the truth a bit.
Jamie: That is a porcupine. That is a porcupine. And I, frankly, Red, think you are wrong to pick up on that aspect of him being a go -getter and just putting his best self out there to get them out of trouble. because As we hear... And as my comment says and as you also pick out, Neelix has been through some stuff.
Jamie: Now would you like to talk to that red from a slightly more caring perspective?
Red D: all works out in the end and i am a huge fan of neelix and maybe if he'd been truthful with tubac he would not have convinced him to go on that mission which ultimately was successful but That was a funny moment when it emerges that.
Jamie: But do you do you want to talk about some of the stuff that Neelix has been through and the very sweet routine that has generated for him?
Red D: Yeah.
Red D: Ah. Sure, that is a separate point, but I can throw that in now. But we know that Neelix, and he reveals again to one of the members of the Nisu. uh species a tribe or species sorry i don't know i don't know all the individual names um that he because he first of all he names the Okay.
Jamie: He names the maglev.
Red D: was The man, is it? that Yeah, her opting sister. who died and then he reveals that his whole family was killed in the the war on his home planet and then he reveals that he
Jamie: system
Red D: every night he updates each one of them about his day which i thought was such a healthy and sweet routine. I mean it was a very positive comment but it made an impression for some reason.
Jamie: I agree. It it humanizes him. If that's the right term. personises him. It makes us think of him in... More of a... you know he's been someone who's been through a lot and has still retained his joy in life. so I feel bad for the many bits of snark I've sent his way.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of awful that we I mean this is a bit more of a serious point But we live in a world where someone can say still I've lost my whole family in a war. and then there's some of us that will likely, hopefully never experience that.
Red D: and that is also like something that came to my mind when i was watching but i do think his routine is i mean maybe i'm completely wrong because i'm not a psychologist but it seems like a healthy way to keep those memories alive and keep those people alive.
Red D: um And. Yeah, I thought it was very sweet.
Jamie: I agree, and perhaps it's my way of reaction to that. I can't possibly have us dwelling on the deep and positive things for too long.
Red D: oh
Jamie: Jenny, would you like to take us in a different direction with one of your thoughts on this episode?
Jen: Yes, yes, although I will just say... in response to that. also or just to add to um And later on... I remember. It's a very memorable episode. which builds out that backstory.
Jen: and you know how they all died and the people involved.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: that basically murdered them. um in that episode um I always remember. I don't know why it's just very...
Red D: yes
Jen: I wouldn't say moving.
Jamie: Is it? What's that?
Jen: It's not moving, but it's really intense.
Jamie: Thank you. Of course.
Jen: um
Jamie: Yeah. Is that the episode where they they sort of come across this doctor or this scientist from another species who...
Jen: So we can look forward to that.
Jamie: built this enormous sort of chorus thing that destroyed the planet. Or my...
Jen: Yeah, have we already seen it?
Jamie: yeah I think we have, yeah.
Jen: Oh, so that came before this one.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Okay, so it's a little backstory. It's a pre -story.
Jamie: Yeah, I agree.
Jen: ten
Red D: It's hard to keep track now on rewatching. Well, once you've rewatched it.
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um i will in that case move on to yeah um i mean i just thought it was kind of interesting the
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: alien invasion technique that we find out about at the end.
Jamie: on
Jen: um first of all they send in these fake asteroids with hidden guidance systems Um. And then. I just wonder what other... fake natural disasters they came up with to invade other planets because they the way it's phrased at the end says this is their strategy to you know fake natural disasters.
Red D: That's a good question.
Jen: Anything? So there are different natural disasters they can make and how do they do that? And I'm fascinated because I think the the guidance system in um asteroids is is quite cunning i'm interested to know other ones they come up with
Jamie: No, no. huky
Red D: like it'd be very hard to fake a flood but i'm thinking maybe we can fake like a volcano like if they had like some kind of bomb they could put it in a volcano like a stick
Jen: Or like an earthquake.
Red D: Oh.
Jen: somehow trigger earthquakes from
Red D: a party with some kind of No.
Jen: Wherever they are.
Red D: sci -fi weapon they can do that sorry that was me really brushing over that top that's possible
Jamie: Yeah.
Jamie: I mean, if I'm brutally honest, if any of those of the spaceships that feature in Star Trek were shot down and just hit the planet hard, that would probably be an extinction -level event, wouldn't it?
Red D: Yeah, because those...
Jen: Maybe.
Red D: Yeah. but i i mean just to like build on that a little bit but when they were kind of examining that asteroid fragment and they were like you know it's i don't know titanium this and Sustraine that whatever I'm making it up.
Red D: I was like It looks like polystyrene to me, and then it did turn out to be a fake asteroid, so it kind of worked.
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: Yes.
Jamie: Nice to meet you.
Red D: I was like, that is the fakest asteroid I've ever seen.
Jen: Yeah, it was definitely showing the age that they made this on that asteroid, wasn't it?
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: It couldn't have looked more plastic.
Red D: I don't think that was intentional, but in a weird way it kind of worked, because...
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: he was like forecasting what's the word i don't know like you know that this is not a real asteroid Yeah.
Jamie: manifesting. She was manifesting an asteroid.
Red D: looks like that's
Jen: Yeah.
Jamie: but um
Jen: I mean on the same vein. when Jamie was saying earlier about how it would have been nice to see more. um footage of the maglev. um they did show one brief
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah, at the very end.
Jen: scene at the very beginning when they first started moving.
Red D: Yeah, there were two.
Jen: and I think though that was probably the right decision to only show that one time because it was very...
Red D: ah
Jen: I just don't think they had the digital capabilities at that time. to produce what you're imagining, Jamie.
Jamie: miss
Red D: I think it was already at the limits.
Jamie: ah go nothing marring is darth place We'd exhausted the budget. We had to just stretch it out.
Red D: but
Jamie: We did slow -mo for the last 10 minutes of this episode to stretch it out.
Red D: Watches. Star Trek. but
Jamie: Oh yeah.
Red D: um
Jamie: It could be, you know, a budget. control mechanism as well as you know an objectification mechanism
Jamie: Um... right it's probably my money. bit at this stage and I would just like to build on Jenny's love of the um asteroid based death weapon by saying that uh i i very much enjoyed the uh Lovely planet. Shame if something happened to it. Etonian Mafia disdain and arrogance of the...
Jamie: Sorry, the Etonian that they come across for one scene, who's say trying to threaten Star Trek Voyager and... wither them with scorn at the idea that they'll actually try and help the Nisu.
Jamie: which I enjoy. And part of me rather wonders whether they meant Itanian to be pronounced as Etonian.
Jen: flu this question
Red D: ah
Jamie: It's something I will just leave for the English listeners ah out there. We'll be right back. And, you know.
Red D: The less said the better.
Jamie: Our heartlands of Oregon listeners.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: and you know Where are our heartlands of listeners, in fact?
Red D: the states. the states. it's
Jamie: Yeah. Those guys. Um...
Red D: ah sorry i did look at the analytics the other day and i meant like we get yeah we're getting like a few hundred downloads every 30 days um so
Jamie: gosh My mother has been busy.
Red D: Keep it up guys.
Jen: this
Red D: Keep it up listeners.
Jamie: Hey, I'd just like to point out that was only me throwing snog, not Jenny. There was no need to include her in that. Shut up, guys.
Red D: Who's their shop, guys?
Jamie: hello Oh, what did you say? Oh, sorry, my bad. uh
Red D: I said, well done guys. More to the listeners. Sorry. That was me saying well done guys.
Jamie: Thank you.
Red D: so this
Jamie: Gosh, i must this is right up there with Baby Rosa. and in turns blue
Red D: This is very concerning. I already am worried that people misinterpret how I come across. And now when I said, well done, guys, and you sit thought I said, shut up, guys, that is a bit of a concern.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah, there was absolutely no...
Red D: I'm like, I'm just trying to go through life, be nice, whatever.
Jen: hmm
Red D: People at work seem to think I'm some kind of... Skeeving.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: decided I don't know, whatever
Jamie: Yeah, e there was no need to tell the listeners to F off just then.
Red D: ah
Jen: I think you just have to accept that no matter what you do, you will be misunderstood.
Jamie: Um,
Jen: And just accept it.
Jamie: yeah Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: what
Jamie: You need to lean into it, just...
Red D: Amen.
Jen: My confusion.
Jamie: Aim for misdirection anyway. i'm Talking of which, Red, misdirect us again.
Red D: Well, actually speaking maybe of being maybe this is a good time to throw in this comment speaking of maybe being misunderstood or correctly understood we don't know i don't know for sure but this whenever tuvok and neelix have these scenes of like conflict and neelix is expressing his like i guess Well, he's hurt at the fact that Tuvok doesn't seem to like him.
Red D: or you know respect him and all this kind of stuff.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: um I do worry that I see myself a bit on the Tuvok side. because I feel like I've had friendships. with people who are more like Neelix. And then I think I became more like Tuvok, if that makes sense. I mean, and was I sarcastic?
Red D: Was I condescending? i do sometimes i love the tuba character a lot but i think there's an element of me that Could be similar to that kind of negative um
Jen: oh lord though if you have had people in your life like neelix red and you put up with them i think you've done it you did a great job so i wouldn't worry about it i don't think i could cope
Red D: next
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: I...
Jamie: Can we just say, as much as he's coming across as a lovable hero here, the number of times he puts people's life in danger slash the medicine of being killed...
Jen: but
Red D: Yes, but... But I'm okay with that. i actually
Jamie: I think a little bit of sarcasm back is okay.
Jen: I, I I would kill him. I would be so... Impatient.
Jamie: But also, we've been meaning to have a word with you about this, Reg. You've been making us feel dreadfully like, you know, hangers -on this podcast.
Red D: but now i also the other recently I had like a passport photo taken and i was like oh my god i just why am i smirking in this photo like i just have smirking resting face or resting s smoke face or something
Jen: oh
Jamie: You are that character from an old...
Jen: there.
Jamie: Uh... children's sci -fi series of the 90s in the UK read, who is a dragon called Smirkenor. a series called nightmare you are smirken off that is your name from here on out
Red D: I'm gonna have to google that.
Jamie: Working off. Pass the baton to Jenny, and Jenny... Tell us your next thought on this episode.
Jen: Okay, well, mine's about to open as well. um
Jamie: gosh He was still near he's one of the main characters here.
Jen: I...
Jen: I know, shocking. um I really enjoyed all the Vulcan stuff. and by that I mean his very cool, calm, collected but...
Jen: ultimately show of super strength when he's doing battle with all these misbehaving um other characters in this episode um you know he's he's very calmly warning his his opponent in one scene uh just so you know Vulcans have superior st strength and then he he just basically reaches out a hand and
Jamie: Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie: What's this guy?
Jen: um yeah and and the guys on the floor um you know And also it just makes me think, wow, Vulcans, they have they win on the strength side. They can breathe in low oxygen.
Jamie: They wouldn't.
Jen: They can knock out someone with a single touch of the shoulder. And yeah, it just makes me feel pretty puny as a human by comparison.
Jamie: I...
Red D: They are the superior species. of
Jamie: Bye.
Jen: They really are. I mean, I wish I was Vulcan.
Jamie: Well, I would like to build on that and I would like to put the case for contra because for someone who has got super strength and theoretically should be the only one able to breathe outside, he gets beaten pretty badly by the supposedly far weaker Nizu who throws him off the roof.
Red D: Isn't he caught by surprise? I don't really remember the details.
Jen: Yeah, that's what i I think.
Red D: but
Jen: I think it was a surprise.
Jamie: The surprise was so... unrealistic like he's He's a super strength Vulcan who saw the individual coming. This is a nonsense It was brilliant looking at it.
Red D: onto the side of the maglev while it's traveling up through space let's go see yourself
Jen: Mm.
Jamie: Clearly a plot device, Michael, and I for one was not impressed by the writing. Lazy writing.
Red D: ah I did love that scene, Jenny. I love it when he gets to like... demonstrate his strength that people are like surprised. so i enjoyed it
Jamie: Um... Red. I think the button passes to you, my friend.
Red D: Gosh, okay. Alrighty. So, I mean, these... three passages on the maglev are like the absolute worst. Each one of them tries to open the door to go outside. You know who I'm talking about, the... the Dr. Bottom.
Red D: Sklop. whatever and then i mean i i mean as a nervous flyer i didn't really love this because it reminds me although of all those times that these people are opening doors on easy jet flights or Virtualizing lights over the edge.
Jamie: Amen.
Jen: Or being so sucked out the window of the Ryanair flight.
Jamie: Yep. Yep.
Red D: Oh. Yeah, I mean, if you get sacked out the window, that's really unlucky. But the fact that someone might just open a door while your mid -flight is... another thing that i have to worry about and i mean even In the end, Sklar, who was like the most inoffensive amenable of them, he turned out to be...
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: desperate to get outside as well. And I was like, these guys just need to put on their seatbelts, sit down and shut up while they get to them.
Jen: Yes. it's Such unruly passengers, how does two foot rope?
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yes! They kept trying to go for that door.
Jen: if if
Red D: Anyway, that was... I guess that's the nervous flyer in me.
Jamie: All right.
Jamie: Oh, no.
Red D: Appreciate that.
Jamie: No. Fair enough. I think... I'm trying to build on that. i think um
Jamie: As you know, I'd like to go in a totally different direction. Could we talk about... the fact that this is a bromance starter episode. of sorts, to the degree it is possible to have a bromance with Tuvok.
Jamie: and kwee! Also consider the fact there's a bit of a theme of exploring characters in more detail through making them do an episode with Neelix. uh for instance the tom paris episode in which tom and neelix bury the hatchet for instance as a way of exploring these characters in more depth and more sympathetically
Red D: Hmm.
Jamie: Is this a thing? And do we think this was one of these sorts of episodes? and Are there more to come, do you think?
Red D: That is a very astute point, Jamie. I mean... To find out that Jenny would kill Neelix has made me realize that perhaps I have some rose -tinted glasses on when it comes to Neelix.
Jamie: then What, that Jenny would kill knee legs?
Red D: Yes, in her own words.
Jen: Well, Red said she knew someone, people in real life that were like news. And I just thought, my God, if I...
Red D: and they were very good friends!
Jen: Met someone. in real life. like this I would do everything. possible to avoid them and and not have them in my life because they would, I just don't have the tolerance and patience you have read I would be.
Jen: So irritated all the time.
Red D: ahs so um i took
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: I don't think it was tolerance or patience. I genuinely like them, but I think there was elements, that Neelix -ness and my Tuvok -ness. did possibly lead to them feeling like I was condescending to them all.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: But to... uh I think you picked up a very good point because I think he is a good foil to a lot of different characters because he has all these kind of qualities that I guess a lot of people react negatively to.
Red D: And. I think you're right about the bromance because I still, well. There's an episode where... I don't know. Neelix does behave differently in response to Neelix. Sorry, Tuvok responds differently.
Red D: And it's lovely.
Jen: Hmm.
Red D: um So you're right, there's a bit of a bromance. as much it can as it can be. forming.
Jamie: i glad I'm glad you guys feel that way because, you know, we've been lacking a bit of bromance of late. um you know maybe we should get a bro on as you know on one of these episodes these sorts of things Um...
Jen: I think they often...
Red D: yeah we haven't had like harry and tom for a while i guess um
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: I think they often... in Star Trek. series. um there's often one character isn't there that is No. you not your typical Starfleet.
Jen: trained. crew member. who brings that. um
Jamie: Human touch.
Jen: normality. Yeah, like... if a lay person was suddenly on board.
Jamie: Are they always in co -
Red D: Yeah, that's a good point
Jamie: I mean to but to that point of um a human character. I was just wondering how does everyone else's instinct that their life expectancy has lowered when Neelix joins the away team get looked after? By Crew HR.
Jamie: Jenny, I think, have you is it back to you now?
Jen: d um I just thought it was really interesting. Obviously, normally I'm with Red. I normally agree with everything Tuvok says and, you know, loving all the logic. and I did think, however, it was really interesting at end when he was talking about...
Jen: you know, no logic is superior.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: instinct is just serendipity. Because. um Bye. I'm not sure I agree with that. Good night.
Red D: and i agree with you in this case.
Jen: occasion.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Ah, okay.
Red D: Um.
Jen: Because I... and i don't know if i ever thought about it before this but i read this black box thinking book. um which talks about gut instinct. um and how and there's lots of sort descriptions of scenarios.
Jen: where something that appeared as though it was gut instinct. led to like good outcomes but he was arguing the author that it was unconscious information or unconscious experience um And it made a lot of sense. um It was things like, you know,
Jen: a fireman with 20 years experience going into a burning building and immediately going to the room to find. were.
Jamie: Fine.
Jen: um a child. needs to be rescued from or immediately exiting saying we need to get out now And then the building collapses. And how did he know?
Jen: and the idea that he didn't know consciously but he's for 20 years experience working inside burning buildings. there are little things that... his unconscious noticed.
Jamie: um
Jen: which led to that gut feeling that He couldn't articulate why but we need to get out now.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: like maybe he saw a particular, a wall. smoking in a certain way which indicates that a certain part of the building is going to fall out from beneath them.
Jamie: Yeah. non -verbal knowledge
Jen: it Yeah.
Red D: yeah i mean it's i think your gut instinct when you're an expert should be trusted if it's your gut instinct and you're not a fireman then worry like like if i was in that situation i'm not gonna have the right instinct because i don't have that like accumulation of experience but i think that makes That makes total sense to me.
Jen: Mm.
Red D: um and that Yeah, I'm sorry. I interrupted, but...
Jen: No, no, I finished. Yeah, I was just, I guess I was thinking in a non -professional capacity as well, just life experience.
Red D: no
Jen: leading to gut instinct do you know like as a woman, if you family. there's something not quite right about the situation. Um. And then. you know it turns out that person is a rapist or serial killer for example i haven't this is not a situation i've been in um you know it's a
Red D: no
Jamie: You know.
Jen: up this one.
Red D: yeah Yeah, I think.
Jamie: The problem is you you almost need the...
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: and The instinct is almost the moment of extreme caution in moments of extreme potential risk. Whereas if you're literally following instinct day in day out without, you know considering logical rational factors. I think there's there's different levels of...
Jamie: value to instinct in both of those circumstances.
Jen: Yeah, yeah, I mean... um Obviously you're gonna think both of them.
Red D: But yeah.
Jen: going to be.
Red D: I think Tuvok, I mean, oh yeah, so that's what I was going to say when you started talking about this, journey it reminded me, I started watching Bones, you know,
Jamie: and
Red D: ni and nelix Netflix is always trying to promote a series for me. and to me and then i ignore it for like three years and i watch it i'm like oh this is perfect for me why did i just resist this for so long um but it is like this like very logical anthropologist and then i guess her more instinctual sidekick cop i don't know if you've watched it and
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: in the earlier series he's like really good at like i guess making leaps off judgmental like jumping to like
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: the solution or whatever she's like oh you can't just rely on your ins instinct but then she's like i've been studying you and i think you're just picking up more signals than i'm picking up you know and you know how to interpret them better so you're like picking up the body language of the suspect and the pupil dilation all this kind of stuff which is another way of I guess trying to explain.
Jen: and
Red D: what instinct is but
Jamie: or they could be like the cop in heroes who just can read people's minds.
Red D: Oh, that's very helpful. You can do that. But I did disagree with Tuvok when he was berating Neelix for doing interpersonal time instead of focusing on all the repairs, whatever. Because I think Neelix was being a good team leader and a good...
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: or team member an even leader because you have to like kind of
Jamie: Yeah, he's a morale officer.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Morale has got to be morale -ing.
Red D: So I also have my own moment of disagreement.
Jamie: We're all disagreeing with our favourite Vulcan in this episode, aren't we? oh This is good. This is the sort of anarchic rebellion I was hoping to generate.
Jen: I mean... Sometimes it is just serendipity. I mean, it's not always.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Not saying two books. Totally wrong. but
Red D: Probably the odds of just always following a logical path are better than following your gut all the time. But we need a bit of a middle.
Jen: Exactly. yeah
Red D: you know, space for both.
Jamie: Fair. Reg. Dude. I think it now falls to you for the next point, does it not?
Red D: I'm happy to have a go but um Let me just check what I have left, but I think I only have two points left, really, so...
Jamie: Red has machine gunned her... 16, 14 points.
Red D: that yeah Yeah, but luckily
Jen: I remember when we started this we were like, we'll just take two, three, two or three each. and have a discussion.
Red D: i mean i just write down everything and then often it's more like i don't they're not really my own points like i just can add to your other
Jamie: Okay, Red, you've had enough. You've had more than your share of points. Jenny?
Red D: i'll go Bye bye.
Jen: they No, no, no, you go.
Jamie: Good night.
Red D: My favorite line. My favorite line.
Jamie: I'm the chat! No, go for it.
Red D: I may have relied on the episode, I guess, because I needed to hear this. and it's about Someone's already alluded to this. anyway but uh while they're in the midst of this kind of maglev life at death situation. To book a piece, it's to Newix. Maybe it's someone else. It is illogical to dwell on circumstances circumstances beyond your control.
Red D: And at the moment, I feel like I'm in a lot... of processes and things that I can't control and it's very frustrating so it was very good.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: to be reminded of that.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Good. I'm glad to hear it.
Red D: Thank you. ah
Jen: It's wise words again for two books. And always easy to...
Red D: Thanks, guys.
Jen: apply but Wise words.
Jamie: Hmm.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Can I, I hear that. I hear that. Um... Although, all of that having been said... if it's nothing if one shouldn't sort of waste time over things one can't control Why is Tuvok so angry when... ah it turns out Neelix doesn't know how to operate the tech and how is he sup - Surprised.
Jamie: a it's neelix b it's on equipment operation built by an unknown species
Jen: Well I don't think he's angry. see because he can't experiment he doesn't
Jamie: And I cannot repeat this enough. It's Neelix.
Jen: see
Jamie: Of course he doesn't know how to use it.
Red D: he they were in that situation so all that mattered at that point in time was getting themselves out of the situation I guess
Jamie: But he was angry, and it was something that was outside of his control that was causing him anxiety. So I push it to you before I bounce back to Jenny that, uh... Tuvok was being a hypocrite.
Jamie: Jenny.
Red D: Okay. I mean, just to give an example of what I mean is at the moment I'm selling a flat. i can't force southern council to reply to us in a response from us listed so i just have to Let that go.
Red D: there are other places there are other situations that i could be in where i could have more agency
Jamie: Yeah. Give up. Give up. Couldn't force Neelix to be good with machines, he just had to let it go and he didn't.
Red D: yeah
Jamie: Also, Jenny, that was a very good South African imitation accent.
Jen: You know, I... i I don't think I had a slight cut out or delay. Oh, that's so good. I want Jesus to play. interrupted again um
Jamie: Go for it. I think Jenny
Jen: Uh... Yeah, I mean...
Jamie: Last pull.
Jen: I have my last point actually. um
Jamie: Thanks.
Jen: yeah i mean so Was anyone else slightly disappointed with where Neelix's argument ends up, right? When he's speaking to Tuvok and he's saying, you're maybe smarter and stronger and better in almost every way, but I have my gut instinct. I honestly thought it was going to end more...
Jen: you know, you're better, you're smarter, you're stronger But, you know, the importance of how you treat others regardless of their intelligence level or their skill and so it's been like that's a bit of it
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Yes.
Jen: cop out really and this doesn't feel like a very strong argument to me i because you I listen I think yeah but I would I would prefer to be smarter stronger and better in almost every way than having than having an occasionally right gut instinct itt felt like great and I don't know I guess you know what if Neelix hadn't even got that?
Jamie: o
Jen: Does that therefore mean that... Tuvok should treat him in a condescending manner. No, of course not.
Red D: No.
Jen: um
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: so uh
Red D: hmm
Jen: Yeah, just... Struck me. Remove that.
Red D: Interesting question. I guess we should mention that Tupac does... Like... What's the phrasing? in his report he does. kind of speak very highly of Neelix.
Red D: I don't know, honours? Commendation? I can't remember.
Jen: Yep.
Red D: But yes, I see what your point is. The point is, it's not like one is better than the other. It should be like that. Yeah.
Jamie: Like that.
Red D: Respect me.
Jamie: I agree. I think... I think this episode is desperate for the argument to be made by actions rather than words. um and that's perhaps a reason why they weaken Neelix's argument. as opposed to how he eventually shows his worth by his deeds, not his words.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the whole but why does he even need to show his worth? to be treated. well. you know
Jamie: Oh, I completely agree.
Jen: um
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it's just it's just that sort of...
Jamie: and then i
Jen: argument. um
Jamie: maybe Maybe it's about the character evolution.
Jen: is a bit more 2026 I guess
Jamie: Maybe.
Red D: Well.
Jamie: maiden Maybe it's about T -Roc's character evolution as much as it is Neelix's proof of worth.
Red D: Amen.
Jamie: to demonstrate that in spite of having all of these abilities He's still got a lot of growing up to do for a 300 year old.
Red D: Well, I did like that little throwaway line on the scene I already described where... Um. Is it? to the dog you know when they when um He likes to talk to the doctor. And he's all...
Red D: Or to someone on the ship. Gosh. My memory is also fading, Jane.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But he's like complaining about how he's mistreated by Tuvok. but then he's like but i do really like him i just wish he liked me back you know which is just a um
Jamie: systems
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: But... On a ship. that's supposed to be functioning in a certain way you might in a normal circumstances, he would have been thrown off that voyage.
Jen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in ah in a professional capacity, in a role.
Red D: but There is that.
Jen: you're employed to do then yes you do have to prove your worth then this you know here's actual value you need to add but um
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: mean
Jen: I guess. because he's not. um Well I guess he's an in -between. So. That's it for that point.
Red D: And actually... i thinking I was going to say maybe Tuvok treats everyone the same because you know we had the comment from the doctor. He doesn't say I'm brilliant enough. But he definitely she treats Janeway very differently. Unlike, I guess, Chakotay.
Red D: to Saint Alex.
Jen: ah
Red D: So yeah, thank you.
Jen: Yeah, it was interesting that the other character
Red D: You're right.
Jen: piped in during that argument between Lennox and Tuvok to say you do you do treat him in a condescending manner like he isn't
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: um in theory, objective outsider opinion.
Jamie: yeah
Jen: But then, of course, to the two years is too muchs response that, no, you're projecting your... um I don't know, feelings of inadequacy onto my um behavior i was like it's this interesting exchange here i'm not sure who i believe really
Jamie: Yeah, gaslighting massively. Um... Right. I have finished mine.
Red D: Yeah, I have one more, but she was... forgotten all the context and there was such a small part of the
Jamie: Gosh, what big fragments you have Mr.
Red D: um
Jamie: Asteroid.
Red D: no not that i skipped that one but at the end when they're i guess about to go to battle with the competing. species that wants to take over the colony the way she delivers battle stations i don't know if anyone noticed but i know she only had like about five seconds on screen but it was so good
Jamie: Alright.
Jamie: All you have to do.
Jen: Hmm.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Yeah, that was it I do remember that line. That was a good one. Nice Jamie delivery.
Red D: Let me just... just one word or two words or however it's spelt, but it was really good.
Jamie: I agree. I'd almost rather that were the theme of this episode, rather than the whole, are Vulcans better than Talaxians? themes Hit me, people.
Jen: Well, I put instinct versus logic. I feel like this crops up a lot. um
Jamie: on this episode.
Red D: Lying on your CV. And actually. Proving yourself. sorry yeah
Jamie: proving us.
Red D: Jamie, I spoke of you.
Jamie: No, I was just wondering how you got instinct versus logic in this one. I don't see that at all. But no, how do you get Proving Yourself read?
Jen: is
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: oh Sorry, I meant, well, because... ah You know? As I said. He looks light on a CV, but then he did a good job. They work. able to be beamed aboard.
Jamie: Why is words for any of our younger listeners wondering about how to get ahead in life?
Red D: Yes, don't be like me and be brutally honest. It's not gonna get you far.
Jamie: That's the name. I think she's doing quite well. Cool. Star Players.
Red D: I have not thought about this at all. Has anyone else thought about this yet?
Jen: Yeah, I guess I would have to go. The obvious choice.
Red D: Nice.
Jen: um Yeah, I mean I just Bye. really good in this. and I mean... Didn't feel like any of the other... card stood out. massively. Pull me on this one.
Jen: See, it was kind of the default one. but i think he had some great lines some wise words you know. I love. to you both. you know, beating people up basically with his Vulcan pinch or whatever it's called.
Jamie: Oh, you bloodthirsty thing, you. um Red?
Red D: Yes, I think I am gonna go... with Neelix as a star player. but for the scene where he was speaking to the woman on the maglev and sharing his like being vulnerable to build that rapport with this person.
Jamie: I feel there was a bit of chemistry between them.
Red D: Well at the end there was a little of chemistry but at that point in time I think he was just naturally doing that like kind of connection team -building thing where they have to kind of form Bons and quere.
Red D: stressful situation.
Jamie: Yeah.
Red D: so I'll do that.
Jamie: That's fair. So I'll preface my Star Player by saying that...
Red D: Is it a rock? Is it the maglev?
Jamie: No, remarkably actually in this episode, given the issues with the maglev.
Red D: Sorry.
Jen: I did think... I did... Hmm.
Red D: The fake asteroid.
Jamie: uh the reputation of the geo asset maintenance technicians of the delta quadrant took an absolute battering
Red D: i do you remember that
Jamie: um given exactly how faulty that thing was. um but i think it's gonna have to be the little widget that was the most effective deus ex machina plot uh circling slash tying up device that Tuvok found at the top of the maglev uh as that thing off so a spaceship single -handedly that uh the cream of the Federation's weaponry was getting trounced by.
Red D: Yes, that was very lucky and I think that's fair. and i'll I'll second that in that it was a very useful example of the concept for me to understand. That was all.
Jen: ah
Jamie: Shield modulations
Red D: A bigger potter?
Jamie: was the concept shield modulations.
Red D: No, just the concept of ex dea machine or whatever, like because I hear that.
Jamie: The ASX machine.
Red D: Deus Ex Machina, yeah.
Jamie: section.
Red D: I like the MacGuffin. I still don't quite understand what a MacGuffin is. I need a good example Anyway.
Jamie: No shit.
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: separate
Jamie: um I think that may bring us to a close. Does it bring us to a close? Or if i have I...
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Have I fulfilled my contractual obligations, or are there more duties incumbent on me?
Red D: You have. Your check will be in the mail. but
Jamie: Marvelous.
Jen: Definitely.
Jamie: Play the jingle.
Red D: but
Jamie: and play it loudly.
Red D: Blin. Oh, let's see if you can... I'll tell you when you should be able to hear it. Oh can I hear it? Yes. I can hear it.
Jen: Nope. got it
Jamie: Yeah, nothing
Red D: Oh, this is Very strange.
Jamie: There's no way that's recording.
Red D: Hopefully this is just a temporary glitch. Ah! And the Matrix! Did anyone else think that Dr. Batson or whatever his name is? He reminded me of Cypher. from The Matrix, so I didn't trust them from the very beginning.
Red D: Although actually he was
Jen: I can't remember. this life
Jamie: Is that because he was bald?
Red D: Trust within. The guy that wants to go back into the matrix.
Jamie: a
Red D: Okay, thanks everybody.
Jamie: You can't trust me.
Red D: I'm gonna hang up now.
Jamie: Thank you. It has been a pleasure. And it's been a joy.
Red D: Don't go anywhere.
Jamie: Some might say it's been a privilege.
Red D: Thank you, Jamie. That was excellent. uh one second
