Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
146. Doug Meacham on Perspective in Sports and Life
102 Plays2 months ago
This week, we sat down with former University of Utah basketball player and current high school basketball coach Doug Meacham for a deep and inspiring conversation sparked by comments from professional golfer Scottie Scheffler. After winning a major tournament, Scheffler said that while victory brings excitement, his true fulfillment comes from faith and family—not trophies. He shared that he’d rather be remembered as a great father than a great golfer.
Coach Meacham, along with Especially for Athletes founder Dustin Smith, explored how keeping sports in proper perspective can ground us, steady us, and make us better both on and off the field. Coach Smith shared the powerful story of a devastating state championship loss and how the five minutes he spent with his team afterward may have been the most important coaching moment of the season.
This is a conversation every athlete and coach should hear—a reminder that while the desire to win is important, the lessons learned in the process are what truly last. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
Eyes Up – Do the Work.
####
Especially for Athletes:
- Website: https://e4a.org
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EspeciallyForAthletes/
- X: https://x.com/E4Afamily
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/especiallyforathletes/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmbWc7diAvstLMfjBL-bMMQ
Join the conversation using #TheSportlightPodcast
####
Credits:
Hosted by Shad Martin & Dustin Smith
Produced by Shad Martin and IMAGINATE STUDIO
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Especially for Athletes podcast, where we explore essential principles that empower athletes to learn life's most valuable lessons through sports.
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello,
Doug Meacham's Athletic Journey
00:00:16
Speaker
everybody. Welcome to the Especially for Athletes podcast. We are so excited to be joined by Doug Meacham, the head basketball coach of Harriman High School there and former University of Utah. Great.
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm going to call you ah great because that team went to the final four, made it all the way to the final game. And we've done a podcast with Doug in the past. Dustin, you'll remember his story. Just a remarkable story.
00:00:44
Speaker
Doug, you were cut, if I remember correctly, your junior year of high school. Is that when you were cut? Yeah, that that was. It was definitely a huge thing.
00:00:55
Speaker
part in my life of just learning how to deal with something that something was taken away from you. And yeah, just a ah big impact on my life for sure. Yeah. And we did a whole episode on that.
00:01:06
Speaker
The way that your mom reacted when you came home, just an incredible mother who said, well, what are you going to do to get so good that they can't cut you next year. right and And so just an amazing story.
00:01:19
Speaker
We'll put
Influence of Doug Meacham
00:01:20
Speaker
the link to that episode in our in the show notes here so that anyone listening to that could go back and listen to that story and how you went from getting cut your junior year of high school to sitting there on the sidelines playing mostly a ah practice player role, but still with one of the greatest coaches in college basketball history, one of the most unique, Rick Majerus, and going all the way to the final game. And that's a unique journey. But we delved all into that the first time that we we met with you. However, we didn't have Dustin on there with us on ah that one. So Dustin, as you've got to know Doug, you've become great friends with him, and you've listened to that episode.
00:01:58
Speaker
Any thoughts you would share with parents and coaches about Doug Meacham and his his story there? Well, I've i've known Doug you know ah several schools ago and he was coaching probably what coach two schools ago when you were at American Fork High School.
00:02:12
Speaker
And I knew him back then when I was a little bit more involved in basketball actually myself and and got to know him then. and And when he was coaching down south from from where we live for four hours or so, we were working with the school that he was at. In fact, he's probably the reason the program came into that school. And again, you know, now working with at Harriman because of Doug. And so guys like that, coaches like that who really practice what they preach, they don't just talk how important it is to do these other things. They actually live it. That's how Doug is. and that's why
00:02:43
Speaker
that's why we found him back, you know, on the podcast the first time and then back a second time. And since then, I've met with Doug I don't know, half a dozen times we've probably gotten together and ended up chatting about something. He's let me speak to his team. And and so I think i I am super comfortable having him speak to our team, you know, the E4A team, the kids here in E4A.
00:03:04
Speaker
Anybody who gets a chance to play for Doug is is lucky. He's respected around the state in that basketball world. The coaches respect him and he's been around a while and and I'm sure will continue to to coach and and impact a lot of good lives or a lot of young men's lives. So Doug, it's again,
Golfing Insights with Doug Meacham
00:03:20
Speaker
it's always good to have you on and we appreciate you taking time to join us.
00:03:23
Speaker
But thank you. I really appreciate you guys and all that you do for high school sports. And I'm honored to always have you come into the school. and visit with our team and our our programs. And as a school counselor, the impact that that has on behind the scenes, you know, is just a lot. I've been lucky enough to have my boys involved in the program. And i you know, I want them there every single time, you know, they get a chance to learn some of the life lessons that that your program and and you teach that just helps them the rest of their life. Thanks, Doug.
00:03:56
Speaker
Well, we appreciate it, Doug. And we had an opportunity to golf together at our annual tournament down at Black Desert. Beautiful Black Desert resort down there. If anyone hasn't visited Black Desert, Reef Capital is one of our sponsors there. They they put on a tournament to help us fund our program every year. They're very generous of that way. And it is an incredible place to golf. But I love it because the interactions I get to have in addition to the great golf.
00:04:26
Speaker
I got to ride in a cart with Doug. And Doug, you you and I started to have this conversation about some comments that Scotty Scheffler made, pro golfer, right after he had just won ah major. And he made some comments that we're going to listen to here together.
00:04:44
Speaker
And then just talk about the implications of his comments to high school kids, to to parents who are listening to this, to coaches, and maybe some things that they should consider. And I think it's really a wonderful thing. So I'm going to play those comments here. And let's just take them in as we listen together. And then we'll
Scotty Scheffler on Success and Life Beyond Sports
00:05:04
Speaker
we'll share our thoughts on it after.
00:05:06
Speaker
Okay? So here's here's Scotty Scheffler. It feels like you work your whole life to celebrate... winning a tournament for like a few minutes. It only lasts a few minutes, that kind of euphoric feeling.
00:05:19
Speaker
And i'd like to win the Byron Nelson Championship at home, I literally worked my entire life to become good at golf, to have an opportunity to win that tournament. And you win it, you celebrate, get to hug hug my family, my sister's there. It's such an amazing moment.
00:05:32
Speaker
And then it's like, okay, now now what are we going for dinner? You know, life goes on. This is
00:05:40
Speaker
Is it great to be able to win tournaments and to accomplish the things I have in the game of golf yet? I mean, it it brings tears to my eyes just to think about because it's literally worked my entire life to become good at this sport and to have that kind of sense of accomplishment, I think is is a pretty cool feeling. You know, to get to live out your dreams is very special. But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not out here to inspire the next generation of golfers. i don't I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world because what's the point? You know, this is not a fulfilling...
00:06:10
Speaker
life it's It's fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but it's not fulfilling from a sense of like the deepest you know places of your heart. you know There's a lot of people that make it to what they thought was gonna fulfill them in life, and then you get there and and all of a sudden you get to number one in the world and then they're like, what's the point?
00:06:26
Speaker
And you know I really do believe that because you know what what is the point? like why Why do I wanna win this tournament so bad? That's something that I wrestle with on a daily basis. It's like showing up at the Masters every year, it's like why do wanna win this golf tournament so badly?
00:06:40
Speaker
Why do I wanna win the Open Championship so badly? I don't know, because if I win, it's gonna be awesome for about two minutes. And then we're going to get to the next week and it's gonna be like, hey, you won two majors this year, how important is it for you to win the FedExCup playoffs? it's just like, we're we're back here again, you know?
00:06:56
Speaker
um So we really do, we work so hard for such little moments and, um you know, I'm kind of sicko, I love putting in the work, I love being able to practice, I love getting out to live out my dreams, but at the end of the day, sometimes I just don't understand the point, you know, because,
00:07:10
Speaker
that i don't know if I'm making any sense or not, but, am I not? it's It's just one of those deals. you know i I love the challenge. I love being able to play this game for a living. It's it's one of the greatest joys of my life, but does it fill the deepest you know wants and desires of my heart?
00:07:29
Speaker
Absolutely not. What do you find fulfilling? I love playing golf. I love being able to compete. I love living out my dreams. I love being a father, I love being able to take care of my son, I love being able to provide for my family out here playing golf. and um you know Every day when I wake up early to go put in the work, you know my wife thanks me for going out and working so hard.
00:07:50
Speaker
And when I get home, I try and thank her every day for taking care of our son. it's just yeah That's why i talk about families being my priority because it really is. you know I'm blessed to be able to come out here and play golf, but if my golf ever started affecting my home life or it ever affected the relationship I have with my wife or with my son, you know that's going to be the last day that I play out here for a living. you know This is not the be-all, end-all. This is not the most important thing in my life. and That's why I wrestle with why is this so important to me because you know i would much rather be a great father than I would be a great golfer.
00:08:19
Speaker
you know that At the end of the day, that's what's more important to me. when I sit back at the end of the year and, you know, I kind of try to reflect on things like having that sense of accomplishment from winning the master's tournament, from winning the PGA championship, I have a deep sense of gratitude and appreciation for it, but it's just hard to explain how it doesn't, it just doesn't satisfy as, is how I would describe it. It's an unsatisfying venture.
00:08:44
Speaker
And so I guess what ah what I'm trying to say is, this is not This is not the place to look for your satisfaction. This is something that's where you can have a great appreciation for and a great like a great amount of thankfulness for being able to do this. and it's i mean Like I said, it's it's literally one of the most fun things that I can do in my entire life. I love being able to come out here and play golf and compete, but at the end of the day, it's just not what satisfies me.
00:09:10
Speaker
Does that make sense?
Balanced Life Approach of Scotty Scheffler
00:09:11
Speaker
So there's Scotty Scheffler. Doug, when you listened to that, that portion of his post-victory news conference, something struck you about that and made you think of our program. I think you sent us that clip.
00:09:25
Speaker
Tell me why why you sent that to us. What do you think that has to do with some high school athletes and coaches and parents? I'd love to know what's on your mind about that. Yeah, I just think he's an elite in so many different ways. His his ability to have the balance and we're all competitors. We all want to win. And, you know, sometimes people look at it and think it's a weakness that he's not a certain way, but he has a humility about himself. They were asking him about, you know, compare yourself to Tiger Woods. he And he just blows it off. And he just understands that, you know, winning is fleeting.
00:09:59
Speaker
and in terms of after the win all of a sudden they're looking at what's next and are you ready for the the next tournament and i think that's just it just stood out that the principles that your program emphasizes you know he seeks to bless not impress he's very resilient i mean look how he handled getting put in jail you know there's not a better example of that and he ends up getting the part in the movie about it just and he's just so fun and and people like this i they just don't come that very often and i turn on to watch every time he has a chance to win and be in the tournament because i want to see something special. But he's just an elite balance, a great person, has a focus with his family faith, family, and then golf being third.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I think we've heard a lot of successful coaches and people that are able to take what they learn in sports, able to have that that balance in their life. And I think
Challenges for Young Athletes
00:10:53
Speaker
it's something that we're always trying to find even after we're involved in sports. yeah Dustin, what does that clip and Scotty Scheffler, all of that, what does that make you think about as a high school coach, as the founder of this program?
00:11:07
Speaker
We'd love to know what's on your mind about it. I like to hear, he's matured a bunch. If if you mean if you know Scotty Scheffler, anybody who likes golf or stuff, studies golf when he first came into golf he had a little bit of a temper he would sometimes act out on the course when he when he made mistakes like we all do when we're younger and and and as he got a little bit older and especially after he had a family he got married and started to have you know his his kids and things he did what most of us do and you you get a little grounded and things make a little more sense what's what's most important really becomes most important um or should at least and
00:11:41
Speaker
case, it did. it It wasn't golf. It wasn't missing a six-foot putt anymore. that As much as that might have stung, that wasn't nearly as important to him as making sure that he spent time with his son when he got done with the the round of golf.
00:11:54
Speaker
Where before, and I think athletes, whether you're an an adult or a high school athlete, there are other things in our life that we we put second, third, and fourth in front of or behind, excuse me, the winning.
00:12:07
Speaker
And sometimes you have to, to be great. You do have to put things in second, third place for a time. And once that time's done, you got to be able to transition into being a dad. In his case, for a kid, it might be going home and and being a th son or a friend or a brother or sister or something.
00:12:23
Speaker
And that's our win the hour principle, the ability to turn off cam no longer a golfer anymore. I'm a dad now. And don't worry about the putt you missed or the tournament you missed. And like he said, I don't feel any different because I won this tournament. He says, right? Like,
00:12:36
Speaker
He wins it, he loses it, whatever it's his job, but I got a son to go home to and a family to go home to. and And when you can get that perspective and that sort of balance, whether you're an athlete or not, right? Whatever you do for for a living, that whatever you're passionate about,
00:12:51
Speaker
To have that sort of balance, to be able to compartmentalize, this is a time of my day, but now it's not. I've got other responsibilities and and put my full focus into that.
00:13:02
Speaker
That sort of balance, I think, is what's going to make him a a a professional athlete for for a long, long time. Tiger
Coaches' Responsibility in Athlete Well-being
00:13:09
Speaker
Woods was sort of the opposite of that. Tiger Woods was a grinder. It was, if he missed a six-foot putt, he'd go make a hundred of them.
00:13:16
Speaker
200 of them after the round and wouldn't go home. He'd turn the lights on and he'd go out there and keep putting. And he would just grind and his whole life was golf, everything, since he was a little kid. And if you look at Tiger's life, they're both great golfers.
00:13:29
Speaker
There's some other areas though, I would guess in Tiger's life, if you went back and asked him that maybe if he could have done a couple things a little differently, that maybe things might've been a little better for him. So I think Scotty Shuffler's approach is a much more less risky and more balanced approach.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's not that he doesn't care about golf. It's not that he doesn't practice. It's not that he's not serious about it. He just doesn't let it define who he is because he realizes he's not a golfer.
00:13:58
Speaker
Something he does. He's a dad and a husband. How does that become a challenge? You both are coaches and have coached. high-level teams that have accomplished a lot. Where do you see this becoming a challenge for high school kids? I'm just curious, like, what are you seeing that where sometimes kids get maybe a little bit out of balance to their detriment?
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I've been fortunate to be a school counselor and and watch the behind the scenes in terms of their academics. You know, when students can have the ability to balance out their time with handling school It carries over into them being more successful in their sport and in their relationships, too. i always kind of tease my players a little bit with their, you know, sometimes some of them have girlfriends. And when it starts to seem like, wait a minute, this is out out of balance where they're always together, 100, you know,
00:14:52
Speaker
you know 100% of the day, it it becomes out of out of whack a little bit. So it is, it's just ah a constant struggle of learning what's important. Winning the hour is the principle that you guys always talk about. And and I remember, i go back to John Calipari in terms of, you know, he would always, his book, Players First, was was talked about. He said he gets them in and he wants to have them make mistakes. He wants them to come and start making mistakes in a hurry because they can learn and and figure it out. And i think that's, you know, important part of learning that balance of managing your mistakes and and knowing what they should focus on. Yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
Dustin, how about you? you You know, I think in anything, if you're it's important to recognize that, you know, A, B, C, and d they're affected by each other. what You know, D is affected by A, meaning you're not going to be a great basketball player if you know, the C and D in your life, whatever that is is, is there's an issue there. It's going poorly. If you have a family issue at home, that's not, that that's getting to be detrimental to your mental health, you won't be at your 100% greatest at the basketball court, right?
00:16:05
Speaker
um on the football field because you're, yeah and and nor should you be like that's, I think we would all understand that you're, you're distracted. It's hard. It's going to be hard to be completely focused for a couple hours every day. If you've got a ah dad who's, who's struggling with something, right? A mom who's sick, yeah a divorce that's happening.
00:16:22
Speaker
Your girlfriend just broke up with you. She said something about you right before the game online and you're, And you know, that's out there and I can't, I got to get to that, but I got to go to practice. So yes, these other areas of our life, they transition just like sports transitions into how well sometimes kids study and prepare for a test or the, the, the energy or mental, you know,
00:16:43
Speaker
energy they maybe have at the house. When you come home from a game that you lost, you're probably going to be acting differently than you would have before. And we're all trying to balance that being a unit for as coaches, being a dad at home and being a coach and not bringing work home with us. And right. We, whether you coach or not, we all battle that. So for a young kid,
00:17:02
Speaker
whose minds are still developing, it's their first time dealing with some of these issues, right? Off the court, off the field. When those issues pop up, if they don't have people to help them navigate those, how do we expect them to manage that?
00:17:15
Speaker
To put that away and go and play in a game and be completely committed. And we say, give us 100%. Can they? Like, is it even possible for them to give us 100% if one of these other things is going on?
00:17:28
Speaker
It's their first time dealing with that and then also having to turn that off and be an athlete if we don't help them. You know, I don't think that's fair. And I think now with... with some of these things they're dealing with potentially being on social media and who's going to read it and how are they going to see it and what are they going to think. And just imagine how that would, the wiring of a kid's brain would get, you know, just really messed up, right? And screwy if if we as adults don't have the ability to explain to them and talk with them and let them work through it.
00:17:59
Speaker
Scotty Shuffler's having that this quote here well into his adult life. Well, a lot of mistakes have been made. He's learned a lot of things before he's gotten to be this grounded. This was not him 10 years ago.
00:18:11
Speaker
um And but we're we're talking about 15, 16, 17 year old kids. They're not
From Sports Disappointments to Personal Success
00:18:17
Speaker
ready to handle all this by themselves as adults. I think we have to do a better job of of helping them manage all these things yeah it makes me think of adam hall head coach of uvu wrestling he talked about how with his wrestlers he has the mat and he actually put ah a whiteboard right outside the door of his wrestling mat just as a way to signal like hey if you have something else on your mind if you're bringing something else to the map to the write it here on the board and try to intentionally leave it here so we could focus in on the mat
00:18:52
Speaker
And I think those little things that coaches do, you know, instead of just criticizing or belittling a kid for having a girlfriend or these emotions are real to the kids and to think through what are some things I could do to help them in the transition? I think that that's a great question for parents, coaches and for young athletes, right? Is how can I mentally transition from one thing to another? And what are some things I could do to intentionally transition?
00:19:21
Speaker
say, okay, i'm I'm going into practice now. I'm going to be 100% present at practice. And, okay, now I'm going home. What could a coach do to tell his players? I know that i I've heard a lot of BYU players talk about how Kalani Satake is really, really good at this.
00:19:40
Speaker
One of them mentioned that they had just lost. It was ah the Kansas loss last year. So it was the week after they beat Utah in that very emotional game. Now they're 9-0 and they're coming in and they're playing Kansas and trying to go 10-0 and Kansas isn't having a great year. And then they lose to Kansas. Right. And all the players are dejected.
00:20:03
Speaker
And one of them talked about how coach Satake talked to the the team. And then he said this to them. And I'm paraphrasing, of course, because I can't I don't remember it perfectly. But he said something to the effect of now, look, you are sons.
00:20:17
Speaker
You are brothers. You are husbands and you are fathers. Right. When you leave this locker room, you could be disappointed here. You could cry. You could be frustrated. You could yell here. But when you go out to them, you be a great husband, a great son, a great brother, and great to the people who love and care about you.
00:20:36
Speaker
So it's those little things I think that coaches could do to help perspective. Maybe we've already hit it, but I i just want to ask the two of you, two great coaches, what do you do? You've both experienced devastating losses or or disappointments. What do you do to help your players have that perspective. Or if you look, yeah, what could I do? Either of those. i've just I'm curious what coaches could do to help their players have that perspective, that it's a game and there's more important things. Well, maybe I'll start,
Coping with Loss and Finding Value Beyond Sports
00:21:08
Speaker
Doug. you can Doug will have more thoughts on this. i i wouldn't
00:21:12
Speaker
First of all, Chad, I would consider Doug, and i'm ah I'm not saying this, I mean this, i wouldn't I would consider Doug a great coach. He's coached a long time. I've only been a head coach for five seasons. Two of those were losing seasons.
00:21:25
Speaker
So I'm nowhere near and in the category of great coach as Doug is. I have had some tough losses, both as a head coach and as an assistant coach and as a player. And ah the the the most recent one being this last November where the high school that I was coaching at who does not make it to state championships very often did and and had a big lead late in the game and ended up losing in a triple overtime thriller, really. It was one of the best games. Some people say the best high school state championship game they'd ever seen. Records were broken in and it was just this battle back and forth, but we ended up losing.
00:22:00
Speaker
And I had a son who was a quarterback on that team and his best friends. And I'd coached those boys since they were eight. And I've been in a lot of huddles, literally in the huddle with them until sixth grade. I could be on the field. And yeah and and been in a lot of wins with those boys.
00:22:15
Speaker
And in that moment, right when the game ended, saw some of the coaches were also dejected and were looking for someone to hug. I remember mentioned the words came to my head as clear as anything I've had as a coach. Calling up a play that I thought was a good play or making a decision. Nothing was clearer than this thought to me that this is when you have to be your very best as a coach right now.
00:22:35
Speaker
This is your very best coaching job is the next five minutes. The game's over. But what you do the next five minutes is the most important five minutes of your coaching career so far.
00:22:46
Speaker
What I meant by that is I had a bunch of kids who were distraught, right? The whole city was at the game up in the stands. It was a big deal in Spanish folk City. And as much as I wanted to go and...
00:22:57
Speaker
talk with a coach and and kind of commiserate together, find my wife or even find my son. i had 70, 80 boys I had to get together and tell them, like, this is the, first of all, the last post-game talk you're going to have with all these boys you brought up. This is it. It's over.
00:23:13
Speaker
And secondly, this this is their minds. Where are their minds right now? and i don't remember what I said. I know that what I i said, what probably ah I didn't say anything special. I said what I think most coaches would say. You talk about the good and how much you love the boys and how great they're going to be. But months later, I realized something that I think is true. And I'm seeing it right now with some of those boys who are doing some really hard things all over the world, some of them.
00:23:37
Speaker
And that is that the only difference but in that game is they got the exact same experience as the other team did, meaning they got to play at Rice-Eccles Stadium and with their whole family and everybody in the city watching on TV.
00:23:51
Speaker
They got three overtimes. They actually got extra time to play. They played extra. They had the same experience as the other team did, except for at the end, they didn't get a chance to hold a trophy that has a one on it. It has a second place on it.
00:24:05
Speaker
And they didn't have that celebration that night or that week. It didn't mean that they weren't a good team. It didn't mean that they're not bonded forever. It didn't mean that when they came home, people didn't still appreciate them and love them and think they were great players who did great things, who set records, who, you know, they still had everything except for maybe a... a ring that says champion and a trophy that says champion.
00:24:26
Speaker
But what they did get from it that the other team didn't get is the the lesson of losing, right? Like in 10 years from now, or for some of those boys right now and the the things they're doing at this very second, which are very hard, that that yeah the experience of bouncing back and having to go back to school and go back into another sport. Some of them were right into basketball on Monday.
00:24:47
Speaker
Some of them did it the next day, like literally. I mean, they were back into it on Saturday, basketball. um they had to move on. And the lesson that they learned from that, honestly, looking back at it now, you know, almost a year later, it's probably going to be more valuable for them than winning would have been.
00:25:04
Speaker
The winning would have been
Life Lessons from Losing in Sports
00:25:05
Speaker
great. would have got together and talked about how we won, but we still get together and talk about how many games we won and how many good times we had and all the, you know, the the great moments of records and everything.
00:25:15
Speaker
And then we have this story that bonds us probably even more of Man, we got our got just KO'd there in the last couple of minutes of the game. But look at what we're all doing. Anyway, the experiences from losing in the long run is probably going to be more valuable than them than had they won the game.
00:25:33
Speaker
And trying to bring that perspective to sports as a coach is really hard because you have to believe it yourself, which is hard. and I still haven't had a day coach. This is probably the same, and he'll tell you his story. But I don't think I've had a day gone by. I haven't thought of that game.
00:25:47
Speaker
um something about that game, especially if I'm out and I'll see people that, oh, hey, coach, and immediately it's all that game, right? you got to rehash it. But anyway, it's just a game. We move on and hopefully the lesson sticks with the kids.
00:26:00
Speaker
What about you, coach? Yeah, there are just some amazing lessons and you just never prepare for those moments of what are you going to say? Because, yeah, yeah those are some some tough, tough moments. I remember losing, ah being in a locker room at University of Utah Majerus would say losing a basketball game is the worst thing that happens to you in your life.
00:26:21
Speaker
You're going to have a successful life. And I don't remember much anything else that was said. And how true is it that that's what happens is we're going to be in those situations and things do have to kind of go your way sometimes to win one. And i just remember the I remember losing one as a player. We lost to Bingham. I was at American Fork High School as a player. We lost in the state championship. But coming home on the bus,
00:26:43
Speaker
I was just reminiscing with my friends of this this is what it was about, the experience together. And it taught me how much I loved it. And I love being around the game of basketball. But it's it's you tough. It's tough to watch those players bounce back. And I remember early in my years, within the first five years, lost a heartbreaker to Orem.
00:27:03
Speaker
was at American Fork and it was in an overtime game. And Craig Cusick, yeah you know, hit some big shots down the stretch and they literally hit a three quarter court shot to beat what I thought at that time was a really good American 14 that was ranked number one through the year. The biggest, one of the biggest gut punches I've had as a coach to this day, I would swear that the player double dribbled and walked at the same time and then made the shot. You know, I still think about that that play every single day.
00:27:33
Speaker
um you know, the the very next day, Coach Rags Ingersoll, Carl Ingersoll, famous coach at American Fork over the years, came, knocked on my door, boom, just gave me a hug. And, you know, he didn't say much, just came and gave me a hug. And I think that impression was, what do you do to help these players learn and bounce back?
00:27:54
Speaker
You love them and you guide them. Because as coaches, we're still figuring it out. We're trying to learn how to how to bounce back. And You know, there's nothing more satisfying than to watch players have these things happen to them. Then they they go on and they're successful. And Brendan Bailey was at another team, American fourth. had Brendan Bailey and had Spencer Johnson on the same team.
00:28:14
Speaker
And we were favored to go into the state tournament that year and do well. But the very last game of the season, it was a region game. Brendan Bailey goes up and has an amazing block up on ah guy and then hit his hand on the ball so hard.
00:28:30
Speaker
that it broke his hand. He came over to me and said, Coach, I think I broke my hand. And then, know, another gut punch in the spirit of, the arena of competition the day before going into a state tournament, you know, but yet to watch this young man, Brendan Bailey, go on and and and serve a church mission and go on to Marquette and and do well and be guarding Jean Morant in the NCAA tournament down the road. He's got a beautiful young family. He's playing overseas in China. He learned those things. And I think sometimes as maybe a seasoned coach, I've seen it enough where you understand that the losses are just part of it. But to watch these young men figure out how to move on to the next play and how to say, well,
00:29:19
Speaker
You got to get up and and go. and So some amazing lessons for sure. Thank you both for
Love and Passion in Coaching
00:29:24
Speaker
letting us in there. Dustin, do you have another thought? No, that thought was i i was Doug summarized it perfectly. Yeah.
00:29:32
Speaker
I love that the coaches that I have that really stick out to me in my life. It's funny because they were tough. They demanded a lot of us, but I knew that coach loved me. And those are the ones I'm still in touch with to this day.
00:29:46
Speaker
And, and so on the other hand, those that it felt like I was a tool to help them accomplish their goals. And as soon as I was not useful, I was discarded. Those ones are the ones that I, you know, now that I'm an adult, I just, I don't have a ill feelings or anything toward them, but I don't respect them. I don't long to be around them.
00:30:06
Speaker
You know, my high school basketball coach was a Doug Meacham. He had us, I mean, inner city, it was ah a rough neighborhood. He would have us over to his house every single Friday night after a home game.
00:30:19
Speaker
And his wife would make us fresh lemonade. And we had watched the game tape together. And we could bring our friends and play pool at his house. And it's funny, i I remember those things way more than I remember...
00:30:32
Speaker
but X's and O's or anything like that. And when COVID hit and he's living in Minnesota, you know, we had a team get together on Zoom just to make sure our coach wasn't lonely in Minnesota because he moved there after he retired. That that that comes from loving a coach, but really it comes from a coach loving us, right? And I train teachers and do that for ah profession. And I would often, when we would hire a new teacher, I would say, i don't care whether it's a coach or a high school teacher or a church teacher. I just want you to tell me who is the teacher who had the most valuable
00:31:13
Speaker
powerful impact on your life as a young person. And they would always reflect and I'd say, okay, you got the name of the coach, the teacher in your mind. And I'd say, tell me what was it about them that allowed them to impact your life so much to where their name came to your mind? I am telling you guys, and this is not hyperbole, a hundred percent of the time they mentioned two things. They loved me and they were passionate about the sport, the subject,
00:31:42
Speaker
whatever it is. They loved me and they were passionate about what they were teaching me. And I just thought how true that is. Like, as you two reflect upon those coaches that had that impact on you, I look back and I'm like, man, Coach Phelps loved basketball and he loved me.
00:31:59
Speaker
Coach Bothwell loved baseball and he loved me. Coach Herbold loved baseball and he loved me. Like I could reflect upon those and they had a huge impact on my life. And so as coaches kind of think of what's the most important thing, i and Dustin, I would say you are a great coach, man. it's about It's about process, not podiums, Dustin. You should go back and listen to a few things here.
00:32:23
Speaker
I had two losing seasons. Come on. I've coached a lot of kids. I have done that with with all of this, but and i hope I hope that some goods come from it. But Unfortunately, the points and losses is part of it. um I wanted to, maybe this is another podcast and I know we're we're out of time here, but you said something shout that I wanted to get both of your guys' thoughts on. Maybe we just use this for a, in a social media post or something, but you said passion and, and they loved me are the two things that the kids remember the most.
00:32:51
Speaker
Do you think that those things are contagious is love in a team or from a coach or, a classroom or something we talk about we want kids to be kind to others we want them to look out for each other i kind of it's kind of maybe at the core of each of especially for athletes is we want these kids who have the sport light on them to go out of their way to be a little extra thoughtful and caring of people that's one of the arms of especially for athletes right in the hallways and stuff with the idea being that if they would do it it might creep into the rest of the school in other words be contagious
00:33:22
Speaker
Make it cool to be cool, right? Cool to be kind, cool to be friendly. but And I think on the passion side, apathy is contagious and so is so is ah to apathetic people, to to ah high motivated people. Apathy is like, I mean, it's you avoid it like the plague.
00:33:39
Speaker
You can't stand to be around it. But passion, I think it is. So I wanted your guys' as thought. it When you have a passionate kid on your team, It seems to leak into other kids, right? or Or a coach. Is it? Is that something that's really important?
00:33:52
Speaker
Coach or shout. know all the teams you played on, we played on the team. We had guys that were ah this way and and a coach that was a certain style. Doug, what's your thoughts? yeah absolutely. I've been fortunate to be around some amazing young men, some great players, you know, and even coached against some amazing players.
00:34:11
Speaker
remember listening to a bus driver. talked to me um about one of his players. and I can say, Lone Peak now, because I'm not an American fork. I can say the word. I don't have to say the School of North. But when I was coaching against some of those great teams they had at that time, the bus driver just shared some information about Tyler Hawes. He says, you know, Tyler Hawes would, after the bus, kids would come off the bus. He was the the senior. And instead of, you know, that ego of the senior gets off first, he was the guy that would pick up and clean up.
00:34:44
Speaker
after his team got off and made sure the bus was clean when they left before the game. You know, Brett Kinghorn was on a podcast the other day. He's referee for many years, and he brings up Tyler Hawes and how he handled ah hard things and and calls. He never complained about a call. And you can't question that kid's passion.
00:35:02
Speaker
You can't question ah Scottie Scheffler's passion because even though it may be quiet and humble, I know and and just believe that that spills over into those teams that they were on to make them great. And I think that's the difference from being a good team to a great team is is that that quiet, powerful leadership that is going to do it first.
00:35:25
Speaker
and And maybe going full circle here with Scotty Scheffler and how it led to this place where we are now, where I didn't really expect it to lead, but it's been an awesome discussion, is that perspective that Scotty Scheffler shared at the beginning of this podcast, if if that's true within us, you know, Dustin, when are you're saying...
00:35:45
Speaker
Yeah, we lost the state championship game in a devastating way. But these next five minutes are actually the most important five minutes of my season. It's not about wins and losses. It's about process. It's about learning. It's about relationships.
00:35:59
Speaker
If we have that trend. Truly within us that it's not just about wins and losses. There are way more important things in life than that. Then it brings about those Tyler Haas like behaviors. Solid. You become solid men and women if you have proper perspective. If you have a coach or a parent or you are a player who doesn't have that perspective, then you don't handle things the right way. I just think it it's a really good thing to be grounded. And coach,
Impact of Passionate Coaching
00:36:28
Speaker
I had this thing come to mind when it comes to passion and love. And Dustin, I know this is a good discussion because I don't want to stop it. So hopefully those who are listening don't want to stop listening to it. So for me, in my experience, having a loving coach does not mean that that coach is not demanding, that that coach does not get on your tail and yell at you and expect a lot of you and be disappointed when you're not your best self. and So to me, a loving coach is not just all sunshines and rainbows and come here. Oh, you fault started again.
00:37:00
Speaker
Give me a hug. You know, I love you more. More than anything, sometimes I had a great mentor in my life who said something one time about raising children. I love you enough to let you hate me for a while. And that's ah that's a really good parenting principle. I also think it's a coaching principle.
00:37:18
Speaker
You're demanding things. You're holding them to a standard. And when they get older, they start to realize, wow, Coach Meacham, Coach Smith really loved me. That's why they demanded a lot of me.
00:37:30
Speaker
The reason why I bring this up, Doug, is you play for Coach Majerus. And if we were pull the people on this podcast, say, okay, if you listen listen to this podcast, describe Rick Majerus in... In one word, I mean, intense. And, you know, he he was a very intense coach.
00:37:49
Speaker
But as we've had discussions about Coach Majerus, I felt within you a deep appreciation and love for Coach Majerus. Can you tell us passion and love?
00:38:00
Speaker
How do those things relate to Rick Majerus? Yeah, he absolutely loved the game. There was no question about that. He was a savant and he was a genius of the game. um I think his balance in life and family was probably off a little bit. But I think what was special about those years, that the guys really learned to galvanize each other and love each other. The assistant coaches took on huge roles of showing love maybe differently than coach.
00:38:27
Speaker
and But you hear the stories of him You know, when Keith Van Horn's father passed away, of him taking him out um and just spending that time with him. Myself as a walk-on, he treated me unbelievably well um and and helped me and guided me and and gave me great direction and ultimately, you know, kind of guided my path of where i I today. But yes, I mean, his way of doing it was a little bit old school and different, but you knew and didn't question that he cared about winning and he cared about his players.
00:38:59
Speaker
And it was a little bit of that tough love for sure. But, you know, I've got a player this last year, of Malcolm, who was at the Naval Academy. And, you know, I'm not a kind of coach that probably prepared him for that and what he was going to face there. But I think it's ah important that the players, you know, realize, you know, that the love is there. and And even though it comes across different sometimes. Yeah.
00:39:21
Speaker
Dustin, what would you say to that? That's really important, though. I remember us saying something about this in a post, and I got ah something about, I think it was a ah comment we had made about when coaches are getting on you and riding yeah you, know take that as a compliment, really. It's because they see that you, they wouldn't waste their breath. Most coaches, good coaches, I don't think, would waste their breath on you if they didn't think you could do it.
00:39:44
Speaker
It's when they become apathetic to you and don't you do something wrong and they don't coach it up because they just feel like, He's not going to get it anyway. Right, I've tried. That's when you should be worried. Well, somebody reached out on on social media, it was a quarterback who I trained with with quarterback elite who plays at another school 100 miles from here and said, I agree with everything you said if if that coach who's getting on you and riding and things really does care about you.
00:40:11
Speaker
If not, it's awful for that kid, right? and And it's true. I think it is. And that's hard, I think, as a coach to let a kid know that, you know, you you really, you you do care about him, but you you also are as a competitive person. And as somebody who wants to see that kid be good, you know that there's better in him. And sometimes the way that you you get that out comes across as you're Don't like that kid, right? The way you say it, the tone your voice that, you know, I ask the kids all the time, please just hear the the the words I'm saying, not so much read into my body language and sometimes how I say it, right?
00:40:46
Speaker
But you do have to make sure that afterwards you show that player that you care about him. If you jump a kid or get on a kid, it's... The most important part of the coaching isn't that message you shared with them.
00:40:58
Speaker
It's the message you share with them after practice when you say, hey, come here. And you say, hey you know why I got on you there, right? Did it make sense? Did you understand it? All right. Hey, we're good. You know I love you, right? You're a stud. If you have any questions, come talk to me. Had a good practice. Tomorrow's going to be even better. You fist bump them, right? And that, I think, is the kid.
00:41:17
Speaker
As an athlete, that's what I would want, right? When a coach would do that to me, I was like, no, coach me. I had a kid last year. And again, I had a pretty dang good team. I said some things at a practice last year to a player that I've never said before. I i lost it.
00:41:32
Speaker
I snapped on a kid who was a captain for me. And I snapped at something because he didn't come down hard on a play, didn't show the aggression I needed. And I knew that there was going to come a time in the game where we were going to get away with the way he was playing against other teams, but later in the year, we wouldn't get away with that against better teams.
00:41:50
Speaker
And I had to have him do it a certain way. Not enough to win this week's game, but enough to win later in the season. And I snapped. And I said some things that I, right after I said it, I knew was Idiot, you're better than that. I can't believe you did that.
00:42:03
Speaker
So immediately practice was still going. I had to pull him aside and I said, hey, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry. And he looked at me and he said, coach, we're good. I want you to coach me like that. I have to do better.
00:42:14
Speaker
I need that. You don't, coach, I love you. We're good. Like she was the one. when he said that, out that's when you're like, I got it. Like, I got a squad, right? Like, we're good. Like, I got a team. Like, thank you.
00:42:26
Speaker
and And it's hard to get those. But I would say to any coaches listening in my experiences, coaching sports on teams I've coached, You know, in football total, everything I've done as an assistant and had, you know, close to 300 games. And I've coached as many quarterback training sessions with kids as I think anybody in the country.
00:42:47
Speaker
So I've been around these kids a lot. They want to be driven and pushed. And if they know you really do love them, but you have to make sure you really show that you do. You can't be just lip service. You've got to. That's They got to know it, right? And they know it when you put your arm around them and when you stick up for them.
00:43:03
Speaker
In a game, don't yell at your players, right? I mean, yell at them to try hard and stuff. But if they miss a shot, they missed a shot. That's part of the game. Don't so yell at a kid for missing a shot or dropping a pass. It happens, right?
00:43:15
Speaker
Was it the right shot? Right, coach? or Did he hit the right shot and he just missed it? Okay. Right? When you hear kids hear coaches saying tackle or catch it or, well, come on, coach.
00:43:25
Speaker
The kid meant to make the tackle. Right? Hit the ball. Well, coach, you didn't mean to miss it when he swung the bat. Like, Teach them how to hit it. But anyway, I'm rambling a little bit, but I think that's critical that the boys really are the girls, whoever it is you're coaching.
00:43:40
Speaker
They have to really, you have to earn that a little bit. Then that respect and love, if you want to get on them and have it be accepted by them. Otherwise they can despise it and push back and you can, I think, have it be counterproductive and find out later you have a player who really doesn't care for you at all.
00:43:54
Speaker
Yeah. You know, one thing
Lasting Influence of Coaches
00:43:56
Speaker
that comes to mind is something that you said, Dustin, at the beginning of this, that five minutes after the state championship loss is when was a really important moment of that year.
00:44:05
Speaker
i think sometimes coaches can after players win a big game or pull one out or whatever. That's the natural time. Like, I love you guys, man. I love you. This is so fun to coach you.
00:44:18
Speaker
I think one of the ways we can help young people understand that we really do love and appreciate them more than the game, more than the wins, more than that, is during those losses. Where during that time after you get on them when they're not being successful, it's one thing like, man, I love you. Great block. Great block. Great pass. I love you. you know Great shot.
00:44:37
Speaker
You have ice water in your veins. Great shot. That's... That's awesome. And that that stuff's good too. But I think those moments of failure when coaches handle it the right way, when parents handle it the right way, i remember the most dejected I've ever felt in my life.
00:44:52
Speaker
Dustin, I've shared this before, but as a sophomore playing on the varsity basketball team, 14 years old, got fouled shooting a three-pointer, got called off the bench to come in the game because we had fouled the guy. We were down one with like five seconds left.
00:45:08
Speaker
we thought he was going to hit both free throws. We'd be down three. And that's kind of what I did, especially as a sophomore. And I got fouled shooting a three-pointer at the buzzer and had three free throws to make two or three to win it, two to tie it, one to lose it. And I made one.
00:45:26
Speaker
I mean, it's still to this moment, like sharing that as a 48 year old man, I still, I still feel some of the emotions of that. Right. And it was a big semi-final of a big tournament. Those moments when a kid feels like everyone in the world hates me, everyone.
00:45:45
Speaker
like all the fans, all my teammates. I didn't miss those free throws on purpose. fact, I went on and set a school record for a little while in free throw percentage, right?
00:45:56
Speaker
Things like that. That's not who I was. I did choke in the moment. The way a coach handles that with a player is so important. And just to have a coach put his arm around me and say, hey,
00:46:07
Speaker
Yeah, he said this to me. He said, if that were to happen tomorrow, you would be the one I wanted at the line. And just that moment for me was more important than my dad saying something to me, than a girl in the stand saying, oh, don't even care. You look good in your shorts. You know, none of that.
00:46:26
Speaker
You never had that. Stop it. Stop it. Whatever, dude. I got legs, man. I got legs for days, Dustin. That's the one thing that I've held on. just kidding. No, I just, that that moment with my coach where he said, if this happened tomorrow, i would want you at the line was so impactful for me. And so I do think I'm grateful for the way this podcast went with with two coaches that work with so many young people.
00:46:51
Speaker
When we have that Scotty Scheffler perspective, it allows us to be the people we need to be, both as players, coaches, parents, when we realize what this is all about. And I'm grateful it went this direction. i don't think we could be the coaches, the parents,
00:47:06
Speaker
the players we need to be, unless we have that proper perspective about where sports and outcomes in sports ranks in the importance of things. And life lessons from sports will always be more important than accomplishments in sports. So any closing thoughts? I don't know, Doug. No, I quote, it's been ringing out relationships are more important than results has always been something that I've remembered and And that's what it's about. I've been lucky to have so many contacts with assistant coaches, great administrators, and then the players. you know just It's a special and sacred time that I've had to be able to spend with these young men.
00:47:46
Speaker
And you know it's just I don't take it for granted. And I think Scotty Scheffler, so fun to listen to him. He just continually says, I am grateful that I get to do what I love.
00:47:56
Speaker
and A game that I love and I've worked so hard for it, but that that being grateful is something that um I hope that I can continue to strive for. and And I'm grateful to be able to get to meet great guys like you and and other coaches that are.
00:48:11
Speaker
out there just grinding and and trying to make a difference in helping young people. Well, thanks, Coach Meacham. Thank you, Coach Smith, for this one. So grateful for your perspective. And thank you all for joining the Especially for Athletes podcast.
00:48:28
Speaker
I think this was a really important podcast and one that causes a lot of reflection in myself as a parent. helping my daughter. She's doing high school tennis right now and all those those things that we do.
00:48:39
Speaker
i think it's really important to reflect upon these things. and So share this podcast with someone who who would be blessed by it. And we appreciate you joining the Especially for Athletes podcast.
00:48:51
Speaker
Eyes up, do the work. Thank you for joining the Especially for Athletes podcast. To learn more about Especially for Athletes organization, get a copy of our book, The Sport Light, or to bring our program to your team, school, business, or organization, visit us at especiallyforathletes.org.