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E099: Irvin Groeninger III
1.5k Plays4 years ago
In 2008, Crystal had been out of touch with her adoptive brother for nine years, after her mom said he had been taken back into state custody in 1999. When Crystal called to find out information about how to find him and was told that he was NEVER back in state custody at all, she began asking the very same question we are still asking today: then where IS he?
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Transcript
Starting a Podcast with Buzzsprout
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds. Have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own? Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are,
00:00:19
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends,
00:00:44
Speaker
and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So, what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today.
00:01:02
Speaker
If you use our Coffee & Case as a referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now, it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Child Abuse Reflections: Society's Role
00:01:32
Speaker
The saddest sight in the world is a broken child. A child who looks in a mirror and sees nothing worthy. A child who looks at beauty and can't see it for the dark cloud in his mind. A child who draws away from a touch instead of pulling into it for comfort and safety and love.
00:01:58
Speaker
A child whose bruises never fade to a greenish hue because they're always fresh. The saddest sound in the world is a broken child. A child who cries in secret because she cannot laugh in the open. A child whose lips have forgotten the smooth, easy curve of a smile. A child who is silent in the corner because he's never been taught the sweet dreams and escape
00:02:28
Speaker
that imagination can vocalize. The saddest thought in the world is that someone out there could break a child. Strip him of his faith and belief and goodness, make her feel trapped in her own body or make him feel empty and unseen. Yet as horrific as those thoughts are, we would be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit that we can hear the breaking.
00:02:58
Speaker
Cracking, fracturing all around us in this world. We know it's going on. But what are we doing to stop it? Are we yelling, pointing, pleading for it to stop? Are we bringing it up in conversations, forcing others to think about the uncomfortable?
00:03:19
Speaker
Or are we passive bystanders, waiting only for the icy grip of guilt to claw us in the middle of the night and whisper in our ears that we let innocence die again and again without protection?
Case of Ervin Greniger III: Awareness and Actions
00:03:36
Speaker
Those were my thoughts when I researched this week's case. How many people were aware of the pain inflicted? How many heard the cries? How many saw him break?
00:03:48
Speaker
without stepping in to protect him? How many saw the bruises and heard the deafening silence or alternatively the screams? How many ignored him until it was too late? Now, how many are willing to step up to find answers and to share his story? Are you? This is the case of Ervin Greniger III.
Introduction to Coffee and Cases Podcast
00:04:54
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:05:03
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page.
00:05:19
Speaker
Coffee and Cases podcast and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast. Because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
Bonus Episode and Listener Engagement
00:05:43
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, Maggie and I have a few announcements before we start our show this week.
00:05:49
Speaker
Okay, so the first is a request. This Saturday, Alice and I are gonna release a bonus episode.
00:05:58
Speaker
And in that episode, you'll hear updates on cases we've covered up to this point. So some recent ones and some back to the very beginning of our little podcast. So go back and listen again to those early episodes you may have forgotten because, you know, if you're like me, you don't remember yesterday. If you're like Maggie, you need to make remembering your New Year's resolution. Exactly. Exactly.
00:06:22
Speaker
So, refresh your memory on your favorites and make sure to listen to us on Saturday.
Milestone Celebration: 100K Downloads
00:06:28
Speaker
So, in that episode, you'll hear about new suspects in some cases, new details in others. If you've left us a written review on Apple Podcast or a message on our Facebook page post from last week, you will probably hear some of those as well read on that bonus episode.
00:06:44
Speaker
And now for the celebration. Maggie and I are so incredibly blessed to have listeners like all of you who reach out to us, who turn to us when you need to relax, shake off the day, or forget about the troubles that are out of your control. We love hearing that you giggle over something we say, usually something Maggie said. She's the funny one.
00:07:12
Speaker
We cry when you tell us how much we mean to you. And Maggie and I have both said it before, we need this podcast. We need you, Sleuth Hounds. And we just pray that we can play some small role in helping families find closure, at least know that they have another advocate willing to take up the torch and bring light to a case that has been shrouded in the dark recesses of memory. And this past weekend,
00:07:38
Speaker
Because of you, we wept for joy. Yes, we did. Yes. And because of you, more people have heard these stories because do you want to tell a Maggie? I'll give you a drumroll. We reached 100,000 total downloads of the podcast.
00:07:59
Speaker
It was a pretty great day. It was an awesome day. So Maggie, here's to many, many more and to celebrations that involve Krispy Kreme donuts. And Backstreet Boys music party. I'm in. I mean, no more needs to be said. Can't go wrong. OK, Maggie, let's get into the episode. OK.
Ervin's Disappearance and Family Issues
00:08:22
Speaker
So this week, like every week, led to me weeping while doing a bunch of my research because the boy at the center of the case was only 11, but he had suffered so much. So the age of some of my babies at school. Yeah, so picture them when I'm telling you this story.
00:08:50
Speaker
And I also had the pleasure of speaking to Irvin's sister, Tiffany, about the case. And in this case, there was a decent amount of research out there, but it's plagued with problems, including one big problem. All of the research is about a young boy named Adam Joseph Herman.
00:09:15
Speaker
But that's not the name you said. Exactly. Because the issue is that is not his birth name. That's the name that they gave him. Those who were supposed to care for him, but didn't.
00:09:34
Speaker
So at his sister's request, and I couldn't agree more, I will not be calling him by that name. Instead, I will be calling him by his birth name of Ervin Sylvester Greniger III. I didn't even know people could just change your name. I guess, was that like a legal change? Or they just... Well, it was an adoption. Okay. Gotcha. Yes. So I will be referring to him by his birth name.
00:10:03
Speaker
Okay. So it had been ages since anyone had seen him or heard his voice, years in fact, since April 1999.
00:10:20
Speaker
So what had happened to the young four foot four inch 67 pound sandy brown hair blue eyed boy that Doug and Valerie Herman had adopted but had to send back to state custody because he had become according to Valerie too hard to care for.
00:10:40
Speaker
Okay, hold on. So, at first, I thought you were gonna say like it had been ages since anyone had heard his voice because he was missing, but he was alive in this time. He had just gone mute. No, you would be right the first time. This is a very confusing case with lots of twists. So, it was around Thanksgiving of 2008.
00:11:11
Speaker
And those very questions that I just asked, like what had happened to this little boy, were the thoughts and questions that were plaguing Crystal Herman, Irvin's adoptive sister and the biological daughter of Doug and Valerie who had not seen Irvin since April of 1999. So she decided she had to find him.
00:11:41
Speaker
So she picked up the phone to call SRS, which is Kansas's Department of Social and Rehabilitation Services, because she had not seen her adoptive brother for nine years. And her mom said that he was sent back into state custody. And she's like, I would like to hear his voice. I would like to see him. So she calls the Department of Social and Rehabilitation Services
00:12:11
Speaker
but what she was told would change everything. When Crystal asked on the phone, you know, to what home Irvin had been taken nine years earlier, how she could contact him, she was told, well, he's been living with Doug and Valerie Herman until 2005 when he would have turned 18 and aged out of the system. She said, that can't be.
00:12:41
Speaker
She was in the household, Maggie, and she hadn't seen Irvin since 1999. OK, and he was 11 right in 1991? Right. OK. So she says the records have to be wrong. You've got to be mistaken. Or your parents are liars. Well, OK, we'll get to that. So she said, you know, Irvin has to be somewhere, but that somewhere is most definitely not with her parents.
00:13:08
Speaker
Luckily, in fact, she said, since her parents, particularly her mother, Crystal alleged, had not treated Ervin with the love that all children deserve to feel.
00:13:22
Speaker
So SRS now confronted with this fact that they thought that Irvin had been living with Doug and Valerie Herman, at least as far as they knew until 2005. And now hearing that someone else who was in the household hadn't seen him since 1999, started looking into the situation.
00:13:42
Speaker
So was this like a foster care situation? He went to live with the family and then they adopted him? Correct. So were the home visits, did they end after adoption then? Don't really hear much about home visits in this case. We do know that the Hermans had been collecting money from the state for the care of Ervin. Even though he wasn't living with him? Well, the state didn't know that.
00:14:12
Speaker
Well, that's illegal people. Yes. So the Hermans had been collecting money from the state $700 a month from the time that Ervin and two of his biological siblings had come to live with the Hermans and they collected that money until Ervin's 18th birthday. So long after Valerie told everyone that Ervin was taken back into state custody. Well, she told everybody except the state.
00:14:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. So if the Hermans had been collecting money, but Crystal knew that Ervin had not been in the household for years, then where was he? Finally, people were asking a question that should have been asked by someone years earlier. Maggie, that's nine years of time during which Ervin was unaccounted for. No one had seen him nor heard from him.
00:15:06
Speaker
So this is like a whole different level of missing for us as far as children are concerned, right? Like we haven't had some family blatantly lie about where a child has been like this. Right. Yeah. We've never seen a case like this one.
00:15:26
Speaker
And now, Crystal was left questioning if my parents led SRS to believe he was still with us, but I know that he wasn't. Why would they have lied? In addition to all of these questions, think of the shock when in 2008, Irvin's biological family was also made aware of this recent discovery.
00:15:55
Speaker
That had completely slipped my mind, but yes, oh my God. In an article with K.A.K.E. News, Ervin Greniger II, so young Ervin's biological father and namesake, noted the following, quote, When I was first told he was missing, I was figuring he was 20 or 21 years old, an adult. I wouldn't figure he'd be missing.
00:16:18
Speaker
Then they told me he was missing for nine years and I didn't know what to think." End quote. Yeah. And I don't think you would know what to think. Like, what do you think? Yeah. To be told that, oh, your child's missing and has been missing for nine years. Yeah. But we didn't know it.
Abuse Reports and Investigation Failures
00:16:40
Speaker
So it was then, Maggie, that police began searching for Ervin, for clues, for answers, for something.
00:16:49
Speaker
In July 2010, while Irvin was still missing, Doug and Valerie Herman were convicted of felony theft for accepting those monthly $700 payments and for continuing to claim Irvin on their taxes throughout those years. They had received $52,800 in subsidies for a child whom they no longer cared for. Yeah, that's a felony.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yes. Nearly a year later, in June 2011, the two, Doug and Valerie, finally admitted to taking a portion of that payment and they reached a plea agreement with the prosecuting lawyers. How can you take a portion of that?
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. This deposited directly into your bank account. Yeah. They were like, well, we only falsified it for these years instead of all of the years. It was very confusing how that could be. They were never charged for not reporting urban missing. I feel like that's the biggest issue. Yeah. You stole $52,000 from the government. That's bad, but you didn't report a child missing. I feel like that's the big issue here. Exactly.
00:18:03
Speaker
And as a result of these felony charges, Doug was sentenced to nine months in prison and Valerie to seven months for the fraud. And they were forced to repay only $2,500 each. OK, but I'm going to have to repay all my student loans when I'm a productive member of society. But it's fine. What, Maggie? That is a fantastic point. How do we get to that point in society? Yeah.
00:18:28
Speaker
It's like we were talking about this earlier. People that do what they're supposed to do continue to have more things put on them than they have to do. And people that don't do what they are supposed to do, just get by with it. Just get away with it. Yeah, this needs to change. But before I get into even more about the current situation, Maggie, I'm going to step back, slow down, and let you know how we got here. OK. So I'm going to start from the beginning. OK.
00:18:56
Speaker
Irvin was born June 8th of 1987 and his parents were having trouble in their marriage. I won't get into nitty gritty details, but I'll kind of give the synopsis. His parents were having troubles in their marriage and his father was trying to get back home to his family so he could get things settled
00:19:18
Speaker
create a stable life to bring his two biological children along with his wife's two children from previous relationships to him. So he's like, I'm just going to go get everything set up and send for you. So he sent his wife money for bus tickets for all of them to come to him, but they never came.
00:19:41
Speaker
Eventually, after a bit, Ervin's father and mother filed for divorce and his mother wanted no contact with her ex-husband. When that ex-husband was finally able to see his children, remember he has two biological children, he saw the signs of abuse that you shouldn't see on anyone, let alone a child.
00:20:11
Speaker
So this is, is this Irvin's dad? It is. Okay. And so he took his child to the hospital, right, because there are signs of abuse, and he was arrested. He was finally able to clear his name, you know, because I guess he's showing up with a child who has signs of abuse, right? Yeah. So he's, he's finally able to clear his name.
00:20:38
Speaker
But by that point, all of the children had been removed from the home.
00:20:44
Speaker
A judge declared him to be unfit to care for four children on his own. Do we know the circumstances behind that or was the judge just like, meh? I think part of it was financial part lifestyle, just a bunch of different issues. Okay. But he went
00:21:11
Speaker
to a lawyer and this lawyer said, you know, he wanted to find out like, what's gonna happen if I continue to fight to get my kids back? And he was told that if he did continue to fight, then his children would stay in the foster system during that whole process. So basically bouncing around from home to home to home. And he said, but what would happen to them if I stop fighting for them?
00:21:41
Speaker
And he was told, well, then they could be placed and adopted potentially within a matter of months.
00:21:49
Speaker
And Tiffany and I talked about this on the phone, and she said it so poignantly that, you know, a lot of people assume that the most noble thing a father could do is to fight for his children. Oh, see, no, I was going to say the opposite. Well, and that's what she said. Yeah, that's what she said to Maggie. She said in this case, the most noble thing was what he did, which was to let them go.
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah, because that gives them a chance at stability, at being in maybe a loving family with a mom and a dad and other siblings, chances that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Yeah. And that's what he thought would happen. He also thought that, you know, they would more than likely be together. So, Ervin Greniger II terminated his parental rights, thinking, you know, this is going to give them those opportunities.
00:22:43
Speaker
Sadly, Maggie, what he hoped would happen, that they would be together, that they would be safe, didn't happen.
00:22:52
Speaker
Instead, the children were split up. They were sent to various foster homes with Ervin and two of his younger siblings being adopted by Doug and Valerie Herman, who already had two older biological children in the home as well, one of whom was Crystal, remember, who made the phone call looking for Ervin. And so the Hermans were going from a family of four to a family of seven, making Ervin the middle child.
00:23:22
Speaker
Okay. A Facebook page hosted by the local sheriff's department provided this description of Ervin and full disclosure, they refer to him as Adam, his adoptive name in the post. So when I read quotes, this one being the first one, I am going to change that name to Ervin when I read the quote. Okay.
00:23:48
Speaker
So the local sheriff's department gave this description of Ervin. Quote, he was an average student, but teachers could see the potential for him to do well for himself. Ervin's closest childhood friends remember another side to Ervin. They describe him as a young man who was his sister's protector. When she got picked on at school, he would never leave her side until it was time to be in class.
00:24:15
Speaker
Ervin liked spending time outdoors with his siblings and going to the lake to camp and fish with his family," end quote. So I have a question. Yeah. Does it hamper or help the investigation that we're calling, that there's two, like, does it help it that we're calling him Ervin or does it hamper the investigation that we're not referring to him by, was it Adam?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I will mention in the end of the episode, the name that he could be known by. And that is the name that he's called in the research. But
00:25:00
Speaker
I feel like especially once you hear the full story and you understand what he went through at the hands of those who gave him the name Adam Herman, I think you'll understand why I feel it necessary to refer to him by his birth name. Okay.
00:25:27
Speaker
From that quote, though, Maggie, he just sounds so protective, like such a good big brother. Yeah. But what strikes me is how normal that post makes Irvin's life sound when, honestly, from the accounts given by multiple people, it was anything but. Like, it makes it sound like, oh, he enjoyed camping and fishing.
00:25:58
Speaker
Until you hear what I'm getting ready to tell you. So as I walk you through the story, Maggie, I will have to continually say words like alleged and reported because there have yet to be any charges related to any of the things that I'm about to tell you about. And it was really,
00:26:25
Speaker
after the family found out that Ervin had not been sent back to state custody in 1999, as Valerie had told everyone, that they began voicing the concerns that they had been having from the very beginning. Unfortunately, because they waited so long to voice those concerns, so basically, all of Valerie's relatives were concerned for Ervin's welfare when he was in the Herman household.
00:26:55
Speaker
Okay, and this is something we've talked about too. We've talked about wanting to protect your family or protect your friends and not report things that you may think are going on in your little circle of people. But if there's something fishy going on, I mean, I would rather my family hate me
00:27:20
Speaker
for trying to keep a child or family member safe, then like live in this pretend bubble that everything's okay when I know it really isn't. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And unfortunately, because they waited so long to voice the concerns, many now like question the validity of what they report. Because they're like, this is unconscionable that they could have seen what they say they saw and not report it.
00:27:47
Speaker
And I just hope that even though they didn't voice them when these events were happening, that someone out there hearing them now will come forward to corroborate or clarify, whichever it is, to either help find Irvin or to provide closure. Because we still don't know. Nope.
00:28:11
Speaker
Family members now recognize that in hindsight, Valerie Herman never took to Ervin. In fact, they say she picked on him. And then it escalated. The first big red flag alert came into authorities in November 1996. So we're still three years before no one sees or speaks to him.
00:28:42
Speaker
So in November of 1996, police were called to the Herman home to investigate allegations of child abuse. And they found, quote, bruises and abrasions, end quote, on Ervin. So you may be wondering like, well, why didn't they then fully remove him from the home, right? Well, I'm really not though, because I feel like the child protective system is just so broken, like,
00:29:10
Speaker
I feel like this probably happens more than, well, it should never ever happen. And I feel like it happens frequently with no real punishment. I agree. According to the source with the Charlie Project, it was Irvin's adoptive brother, Justin, who placed the call to report the abuse. So the biological child of Doug and Valerie. Yes.
00:29:36
Speaker
According to the Charlie Project, he had witnessed several instances of his mother physically abusing Ervin, though he also stated that his father, while his father knew of the abuse, never took part, which to me, I have a hard time reconciling that also. Yeah. Without placing guilt. That's like, I mean, the author of Knight says, basically, if you stand by and say nothing,
00:30:07
Speaker
You're just as bad as the people who were doing it. Yeah. And on the day that Justin called, he had seen his mother throw Irvin against a wall and pull his hair. But before law enforcement arrived at the Herman's home, he alleges that Valerie had convinced him to tell authorities that he had made it all up. How did she know he called? Well, I guess he told her. Or maybe she overheard her. I don't know.
00:30:36
Speaker
A timeline by reporter Tim Potter for the Wichita Eagle indicates that Derby Police Lieutenant Tim Brandt told him this reporter via an email that, quote, it was investigated by our detective and SRS. The matter was referred for counseling through SRS, end quote. And per an article by Annette Lawless for KAKE News, Ervin was still removed from the home.
00:31:04
Speaker
and sent to Wichita Children's Home for two days. But soon the Hermans were cleared and Ervin was sent back with the Hermans given just a warning not to spank Ervin with a belt again. Oh, okay. So that's basically all that happened from the first red flag. A second incident arose in early January, 1998. So now we're like a year before anyone
00:31:35
Speaker
The last time anyone hears or sees Ervin. In January 1998, Ervin's elementary school, Pleasant View Elementary, reported suspected abuse of him in the Herman home. According to that same article by lawless, police interviewed several educators at the school.
00:31:57
Speaker
including one who, as indicated in the police report, said he didn't believe that Ervin was being abused because he thought Ervin would, quote, speak up if there was a problem. Oh my God. Yeah, Ervin's only 10 at the time. Like, I'm doubting that most children who are abused are going to speak up to adults. In this red flag instance,
00:32:23
Speaker
Lieutenant Brandt again told 10 Potter of the Wichita Eagle that quote, the investigation revealed the injuries occurred while the child was engaged in sporting activity with siblings, end quote. Okay.
00:32:38
Speaker
only five days after the accusations of abuse this time in 1998, Ervin had run away. Okay. He's telling you without telling you that something is wrong if he's running away. That's what I'm saying.
00:32:57
Speaker
And that runaway instance was per report with the Derby police from the Hermans, but he returned within a couple of hours and no action was taken.
Isolation and Disappearance of Ervin Greniger
00:33:07
Speaker
But during that incident, Valerie reported to police that Irvin had attempted to run away six or eight times before, but was usually only gone an hour or two. And she told police that she thought he was doing it, quote, to get attention, end quote.
00:33:24
Speaker
or quote, because someone was beating him at home, end quote. After that investigation into abuse that was initiated by the school, Doug and Valerie moved away from Derby, Kansas, which is where they were living at the time, to Tawanda, Kansas, where Doug Herman could continue his, he had a successful like concrete masonry business.
00:33:46
Speaker
But with this move, Valerie was going to take a job as manager of the Pine Ridge Mobile Home Park, which is where they lived. And also with that move, Maggie, the Hermans kept all of the other children enrolled in public school. Guess who they decided to homeschool? I know it wasn't Ervin. It was. Because remember, if they send him to public school, what might the public school do? Oh, we'll call and report him. Report abuse. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:16
Speaker
So they began to homeschool only Irvin, thus continuing the isolation. Valerie Herman would later justify the action and tell reporters and investigators alike that Irvin didn't like regular school. Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't the quote literally like 10 minutes ago say he was a great student? Yep. How his teachers all saw his potential.
00:34:42
Speaker
But she said that he didn't like regular school and that he actually preferred homeschooling because it meant one-on-one attention from her, and that it was a better fit for him anyway because she argued that he suffered from, quote, psychological problems, end quote. Then, by 1999, Ervin was gone.
00:35:05
Speaker
Valerie told everyone that he had been taken back into state custody because she couldn't handle him, and then to other peoples just that the state had taken him back. And that's what everyone believed happened, Maggie, until that phone call Crystal made in 2008 to find out that Irvin had never gone back into state custody at all. Let's talk about slipping through the cracks.
00:35:29
Speaker
He fell through a gaping hole. Yeah, this is why at the beginning I was like, how many people heard things? How many people saw things? How many people let him down? And like, if Crystal hadn't made the phone call, we wouldn't be talking about him right now. Right. Yeah, we would have no idea. And wait till you hear this, Maggie.
00:35:52
Speaker
During these turbulent times, Irvin's biological sister, Tiffany, the one I spoke with, who had been adopted by a different family, had tried to maintain contact with him. In fact, she wanted to keep contact with all of her brothers and sisters, like to maintain that bond.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, it is super sad they were separated. I completely agree. And in our conversation, Tiffany recalled calling the Herman household several times in the years from 1999. And remember, from 1999, he's not heard from or seen again. So she called them between the years of 1999 into the years that followed. But in hindsight, when she found out that all of these years she'd been calling Valerie,
00:36:40
Speaker
Irvin had been nowhere. Now she thinks about all of the excuses that she had been told about why she couldn't speak with Irvin. Valerie Wood, Maggie, weaved these stories for Tiffany in these phone calls. Like first, Tiffany called and Valerie was like, oh, the siblings are great. They aren't home, but they're doing really well. You should call back some other time.
00:37:07
Speaker
So then Tiffany recalls calling multiple times. Every time they would be out, but Valerie would be like, oh, they're doing great. And she'd give these updates. One time, around the time that Irvin would have been 16, so in 2003, and again, in hindsight, we now know no one has seen him in four years at that point, right?
00:37:28
Speaker
Tiffany calls and Valerie is like, oh yeah, Irvin's getting ready to take his driver's license test. He's doing really well. In 2005, Valerie told Tiffany that Irvin was about to graduate high school. Everything's going great. And all the while, Maggie, Tiffany didn't speak with Irvin on these occasions, but she had no reason not to believe Valerie Herman.
00:37:58
Speaker
Knowing what we know now, of course Irvin couldn't speak on the phone to Tiffany because he wasn't there. And what breaks my heart more than anything, Maggie, are the stories that I'm getting ready to tell you, as reported by members of the Herman family of what daily life was like for Irvin from the time he was adopted until the last we know of him in 1999.
00:38:24
Speaker
a situation felt not just by Ervin, but also by the other children in the home. So these stories I'm getting ready to tell you were not just things that happened to Ervin, according to my sources. But again, before I do, and this gets into what you were just asking,
00:38:50
Speaker
All of these are allegations, right? And here's why I'm bringing this up, because I feel like I need to clarify, there were people who reported abuse to authorities. I mean, you've got the school reporting abuse, you have family members reporting it, you have neighbors reporting it, but each time the reports were investigated and then closed. And in my gut, I feel I know what's true.
00:39:18
Speaker
But I do have to tell you many of the details that I'm going to share. Doug and Valerie deny that they ever happened. But some other details, they acknowledge as true, but they say they have justifiable reasons. Account number one is from Kim Winslow, Irvin's aunt.
00:39:44
Speaker
like biological ant or adopted ant? Adoptive ant. Okay. On Super Bowl Sunday, 1999. So we're talking like just weeks before the last time anyone sees or hears from Ervin. She witnessed Ervin. And again, these are her allegations. She says that she witnessed Ervin chained to the bathtub faucet. What? In the Herman's mobile home in Tawanda. As in like,
00:40:15
Speaker
He was playing with his siblings and he was in jail and they chained him there? No, as in he was handcuffed to the bathtub faucet. She recalls that all day long, no one took Irvin any food, any water, anything.
00:40:37
Speaker
And later in the day, Kim suggested that she make Ervin a plate of food and take it into him, but that Valerie insinuated that Ervin didn't deserve to eat. And other relatives, Maggie, would corroborate that same site or told similar stories of Valerie forcing Ervin to sleep in the bathtub.
00:41:01
Speaker
Valerie told Kim that she locked Irvin in the bathroom because he'd been bad. But Kim would later say that she never saw Irvin cause any problems for Doug and Valerie, nor did she think that he would dare disobey them. So even if he was a bad kid, you still don't chain your kid to the bathtub when they're bad. Exactly.
00:41:27
Speaker
And that character statement from Kim is a far cry from the justification that Valerie would give for her actions. So she actually admitted that she did force Irvin to sleep in the bathtub and that she restrained him there. But she says she was told to do so. By who?
00:41:48
Speaker
She said, well, she argues that Irvin suffered from attachment disorder and either bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, and that it was a psychiatrist who had actually advised her to lock him in the bathroom after Irvin had, according to Valerie, threatened to kill both her and Doug.
00:42:10
Speaker
What? Yeah. She also argued that threats like that from Ervin were why she did on occasion whip him with a belt. This is what she says. So she actually admits to whipping him with a belt. She admits to locking him in the bathroom and she admits to restraining him to the tub. But she says she had reason to. In hindsight,
00:42:36
Speaker
Now that everyone was aware that Valerie had lied about Irvin's whereabouts, Kim seemed to see with much more clarity what she now wishes she had reported long ago. Well, yeah. So in another article by Tim Potter and the Wichita Eagle, here's the description of another instance of abuse that Kim Winslow
00:43:00
Speaker
asserts that she witnessed. Again with me replacing the name Adam with his birth name of Ervin. Quote, when Ervin was younger, maybe seven or eight, and living with his adoptive family in Derby, Winslow said she heard her sister tell Ervin to eat food that his younger siblings had left on their plates. He told her he was full, and she hit the back of his head, causing his face to come down in his plate.
00:43:29
Speaker
Winslow said. Winslow said it bothered her. I went over to him and I rubbed his little head and I
Regrets and Legal Challenges in Ervin's Case
00:43:35
Speaker
talked to him to soothe him. She said, I feel sick for not reporting the incident. End quote. Well, I do feel like that would kind of stay with you because. If those incidents had been reported, would we be having? Would we not even be having this conversation? Right, I mean, I would hope that had they been reported,
00:43:59
Speaker
Ervin and the other children would have been removed from the home. Account number two comes from Justin Herman, Ervin's adoptive brother. Remember, he's the one who made the phone call to police in 1996 when he says he saw his mom throw Ervin against a wall and pull his hair.
00:44:18
Speaker
He now says that through the course of several years, he remembers his mother would often, quote, hit or beat him with a belt, end quote. Him as in Ervin or him as in Justin? Yes. Okay. Ervin. He also remembers Ervin being locked in the bathroom. And when he had questioned his mother about it, she told him that Ervin was in there because he was threatening the family and that he couldn't be trusted.
00:44:48
Speaker
So she's sticking to the story from the previous incident, that he's threatening them. Right. Account number three is from Valerie's estranged mother, Margaret Davis.
00:45:02
Speaker
So, Margaret Davis admitted that she and Valerie had a turbulent relationship, but she reported that Valerie could be, quote, very, very mean sometimes, end quote. And she also corroborated the bathroom punishment. And I feel like if your mom, I don't know what I'd do if my mom, yeah. I would cry. I would too.
00:45:29
Speaker
Margaret Davis said that the act of locking Ervin in the bathroom had been something that had been happening since before the move to Tawanda. So it had been happening for a while.
00:45:42
Speaker
She recalled a time when she and Valerie's aunt had been visiting the Hermans and Valerie's aunt needed to use a bathroom. And she said Valerie had to unlock the door and that when she did, they saw Ervin with a blanket and a pillow in the tub. And Valerie told them that he was in there for the same reason that she had used before, that Ervin had threatened to kill Doug and Valerie in their sleep.
00:46:05
Speaker
And Valerie's mom says she remembers thinking that claim was odd because she had only ever known Ervin as, quote, a darling little boy, end quote. But because Valerie's mom knew of the turmoil that was in the house toward all of the children, when Valerie told her that she had sent Ervin back into state custody, her mom believed her and was actually relieved for Ervin's sake.
00:46:31
Speaker
So the same as Crystal. Yeah. So like all these people who are reporting abuse, when Valerie says, well, he's back in state custody, they're almost like, phew, good. You know, like, I'm glad for Irvin. Sad. Account number four, Irvin's uncle, Sam Bush, Valerie's brother. He says that he now wishes he had taken action as well on a memory that haunts him.
00:47:00
Speaker
He said that he had been living with the Hermans in 1995, and he remembers a time when Doug and Valerie's biological daughter, Crystal, was sitting on the stairs crying. And remember, Crystal's the one we can thank for us even knowing that Ervin was missing when she made that call looking to get in contact with him.
00:47:20
Speaker
In this instance, this is according to Sam Bush, Valerie's brother, he said that she was telling him that she couldn't bear to watch her mom hurt Ervin any longer. And Sam actually admitted his own complicity in Ervin's abuse continuing and the guilt that he feels over what he said next. He convinced Crystal not to report her mother.
00:47:47
Speaker
because he told Crystal it would cause problems between them and that instead they should just hold out hope that the situation would get better on its own.
00:48:00
Speaker
I know. He also says that in the time that he was in the home, he witnessed his sister curse at Ervin, scream at him inches from his face, beat him with a belt, slap him, and throw him down. And he said there were times that he would attempt to step in to stop the abuse, but that often he would end up withdrawing out of fear that him trying to get involved would only make the situation worse for Ervin.
00:48:28
Speaker
But it should have been reported. I agree. And Sam Bush recalled in an article in the Wichita Eagle one very specific memory of the treatment that he alleges that he witnessed. He said Irvin had been around seven at the time and he saw Irvin folding six or seven baskets of laundry in the living room.
00:48:51
Speaker
And he said he started helping Ervin fold the clothes because he felt bad for him. I mean, that's a lot of clothes. But as soon as he started helping, Valerie came flying out of the kitchen to yell at Sam for helping. And so after that, Sam had just sat down to watch television, but he was still in a spot where he could see Ervin folding the clothes.
00:49:12
Speaker
And Sam actually saw one of the younger siblings walk by a sack of newly folded clothes and knock them over, which is like a total sibling thing to do, right? But Irvin scolded his sibling for messing up the pile, right? Like, listen, you know, I just folded this. What are you doing? Why would you do that? And when Valerie heard him, again, she flew out of the kitchen in a rage that she's the parent, not him.
00:49:40
Speaker
He had no right to tell his siblings what to do or not to do. And then Valerie proceeded to go around the room and knock over every single pile of folded clothes that Ervin had just completed and make him do it all again. Oh, this is where I would have had a total fit. Like, yeah. So with all of these accusations mounting, Doug and Valerie maintain that much of these accounts are lies.
00:50:10
Speaker
They say that they loved Irvin very much and that those making the reports, including Valerie's brother Sam and their daughter Crystal, are lying.
00:50:22
Speaker
Doug Herman even argued that Sam wasn't even living with them at the time and that Sam would lie to try to harm them because according to Doug, Sam would quote, do anything to ruin us, end quote. Okay. Okay. Maybe these are lies, but how did they justify the fact that they didn't report him missing if he was like a runaway or whatever for that? I mean, yeah, what justification is there for that? And in my head, I'm like,
00:50:52
Speaker
That's a lot of people to corroborate similar stories. So Doug and Valerie said, nope, they are all lying. But Sam would tell you, as he did to Tim Potter of the Wichita Eagle, that the guilt he feels doesn't lie. He told Potter that he blames himself. He said, quote, we should have done more. I don't blame Crystal or her brother Justin. At the time, they were kids.
00:51:20
Speaker
I was the adult the night I went in there and Crystal was sitting on those stairs and I talked her out of it." He said that the whole family would walk on eggshells around Valerie because they knew that if they did anything to make her upset that whatever scene was already being made would get worse. These are his words. This is what he says.
00:51:47
Speaker
And while that was his justification then, he says he now realizes that there shouldn't have been any justification of that behavior at all. And Maggie, I mean, I feel like if what he were saying weren't true, then I don't know why you would ever admit to what he said his own role was in allowing child abuse to continue.
00:52:14
Speaker
Right, exactly. Yes. So when Valerie told her brother, Sam, as well, like just as she had told everybody else that Ervin was back in state custody in 1999, he reported feeling relieved.
00:52:30
Speaker
again, just like Valerie's mother, you know, just like the other family members. Because while he knew, this is what he said in an interview, while he knew that Ervin had already been damaged emotionally and psychologically, Sam Bush was thinking, well, at least the physical abuse will end.
00:52:51
Speaker
But as we know, Maggie, Ervin was never sent back to state custody, as everybody was told. Nor was he living happily in the Herman household, as Tiffany had been told. So now, law enforcement had to set about figuring out where Ervin Greniger III, AKA Adam Herman, was for all these years.
00:53:15
Speaker
Since the first story that was told that he had been sent back to state custody was proven to be a lie. Obviously. As you can imagine, yes. Doug and Valerie's story changed. Oh, OK. Now they maintain that in 1999, when Irvin disappeared, Valerie had spanked him with a belt. They had an argument with him, with him saying, I'm running away and I'm not coming back. And Valerie said, good.
00:53:43
Speaker
and that he had indeed run away. Okay, he ran away but he didn't report it? Yeah, basically. They said that they went out to look for him and searched for several hours, but they assumed that one of two things must have happened when they couldn't find him. Either he would return home in a few hours since, you know, they say that he had run away like this before. Or number two, they're like, maybe he ran away to his biological parents.
00:54:13
Speaker
Either way, they told police in, you know, 2008 when all of this is coming to life. Right, so it's not a couple hours that he's been ran away, that he had his run away. It's nine years. Years. Yes. So they told police that they didn't report it at the time because they were afraid that, because they had been told not to spank Irvin with a belt again and that they had, that the state would take their other children away if the police found out he was missing.
00:54:43
Speaker
First off, they didn't report a period, right? No. But that was the reason why they said they didn't report it. OK. In terms of resolution in Irvin's case, herein lies the problem, Maggie. The Hermans have maintained over the years that Irvin ran away, and that they say he's likely still alive out there somewhere. While there are others,
00:55:11
Speaker
most who fear the worst and want to accuse the Hermans of foul play in terms of Ervin's disappearance. While the Hermans are persons of interest in the disappearance, there are many people out there who want murder charges. I feel like that would be kind of hard to bring about though. Right. And the logistics
00:55:38
Speaker
are that, I mean, first we have to prove that Irvin is deceased as a first step. The Butler County Sheriff in 2009, Craig Murphy, argued in a news interview, quote, what are we going to lock them up for? Because if you lock someone up, you better have the proof to back up what you just did. We're not at that point.
00:56:01
Speaker
I don't know if we're going to get to that point," end quote, as he argued that he wanted to make sure that whatever charges he might level at the Hermans would stand up in court. And I get that. I mean, I do feel like, yeah, I do too, but I do feel like, I mean, I can see what he's saying, but then you hear all of this that's happened to this kid and you're like, somebody needs to be in jail for this. Even if it's just for the child abuse.
00:56:30
Speaker
Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say too. I feel, I understand, and it happens in so many cases, that we want swift justice and justice is slow. We need to make sure that we have all of the evidence, all our ducks in a row before we take someone to trial.
00:56:51
Speaker
But I do personally feel that at minimum, with so much corroboration, that the abuse should carry a punishment at least, in addition to the fact that they didn't report him missing. Right, yes. And to me, one other detail that doesn't look good, in my opinion, for the Hermans, is the fact that very soon after Ervin's disappearance, Doug and Valerie moved again to Sedgwick.
Search Efforts and Valerie Herman's Claims
00:57:20
Speaker
I know I'm judging based on what I would do. And yes, I understand that just a couple of weeks ago, Maggie, we said that everybody reacts differently. I can't judge, but I will just say that if my child went missing, I would never leave by choice where I was living at the time because I would hold out alone. Because maybe they come back. Yes. And if they're going to come back, where are they going to come looking for me? The place where they last saw me.
00:57:50
Speaker
So I would have stayed put. As for murder charges though, as of yet, no human remains have been located. Again, making the leveling of a charge like that very difficult.
00:58:07
Speaker
After Ervin was discovered missing for all those years, law enforcement began digging, both literally and figuratively, into the Herman's. They went into the Herman home and seized laptops, medical records, pictures, and much more.
00:58:23
Speaker
They also literally dug around properties owned by the Hermans over the years. After receiving one tip from an out-of-stater, police dug and sifted ground around the Hermans old mobile home near a shed that Doug had put in near the time Ervin was last seen. So there, remember, he works in concrete masonry. So this tip was that, you know, could he be buried
00:58:53
Speaker
under or around the shed. Law enforcement searched for six hours before realizing that they wouldn't find what they were looking for. They have used cadaver dogs. They have searched in several places. They've spent money on that ground penetrating sonar searches that can look under like concrete and things like that.
00:59:20
Speaker
And while they have not released what all they have found as a result of these multiple search efforts, they did, in several reports, I saw it corroborated, say that they had discovered, quote, the answer to one of the questions they had, end quote. But they haven't said what that question is. So if I had to hypothesize, I would guess that the question is
00:59:49
Speaker
is Ervin still alive? Right. Or like, did he leave of his own volition? Like, those are the only two questions that I can think of. But whatever they found, they said that they are, quote, holding tightly, end quote, onto it. So, like, holding tightly until they have something more than hearsay to attach it to.
01:00:15
Speaker
Many have criticized the investigation that it was running under the assumption from early on that Irvin were dead rather than alive. But Butler County Sheriff Craig Murphy said that choice was strategic because they could actually get more resources for the investigation if it were investigated that way.
01:00:35
Speaker
No, I didn't know that. I didn't either. But I read that in a report. So I was like, hmm. Law enforcement did ask for familial DNA from Irvin's biological family. So from his father, from Tiffany, just to help them to potentially identify or find Irvin in the future. Meanwhile, Valerie,
01:01:02
Speaker
has been attempting to provide an explanation for all of these accusations being leveled against her. The argument she maintains that she and Irvin got into, you know, when he ran away, she stated to KWCH-TV, quote, I was upset and we say mean things when we get mad, things you don't mean, end quote.
01:01:26
Speaker
She went on to tell the news station that she, quote, likely went too far. Probably. Yeah, with Ervin when they used a belt. And that she did lock him in a bathroom. She argued, quote, yes, I left bruises on his legs. I didn't starve him or chain him up like people talked about, end quote.
01:01:51
Speaker
Valerie even went so far as to say that she is still waiting for a phone call from Irvin, letting her know that he's okay. Okay, but if that's the case and like, because I just think about like, if it's a child that you love and care about, you would have reported them missing before nine years passed or however long it was.
01:02:21
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:23
Speaker
And when presented with the fact that Doug and Valerie continued to collect money for Ervin and didn't report him missing, which is what you were just talking about, their attorney, Warner Eisenbeese, said that Doug and Valerie felt, quote, horribly guilty, end quote, for not reporting him missing earlier, that they also felt guilty for stealing that money, and that they, quote, love and miss their son.
01:02:54
Speaker
Well, actions speak louder than words. Yeah. And that's how I feel too. Like speaking personally, love means you never stop searching. It means that you call the police. Love means protection that based on these allegations was not provided. And love does mean more than just words.
01:03:20
Speaker
Tiffany still feels the impact of her brother's disappearance. And as she feels in her heart, his death, she feels the burdens of survivor's guilt, wondering why Irvin suffered the wrath he did rather than her. And she means it. You can hear it in her voice. She loves her brother with the fierce love of loyalty to the end.
01:03:49
Speaker
and she feels pain as she does love very deeply. So let's see how she deserves answers. Doug Herman died in July 2016 of natural causes and can no longer provide information, but there are still those alive who can.
Appeal for Information: Love and Search Continues
01:04:11
Speaker
In fact, the Butler County Sheriff, Kelly Herzit, has pulled no punches and directly pointing to Valerie Herman for answers. He told KWCH-TV, quote, I believe Valerie Herman has more to tell, and she's not talking at this point, end quote. Is there someone out there who could tell law enforcement what that item is that may have answered a main question in the investigation?
01:04:41
Speaker
Someone who might have more information either about where Ervin might have gone or in what happened to him. Did someone witness odd behavior or activity from anyone who might be involved? Ervin Greniger II said the following in an interview with KSNW-TV, quote, you know, I've lost him once. I can't lose him twice. I can't do that.
01:05:08
Speaker
Well, I'm not going to point any fingers at the Hermans. I don't know anything about what went on or what's possible that went on. I just know what I've read in the media. I'm sure there's somebody out there that knows something, and I just wish they'd step forward, right or wrong, step forward. If you've seen him, step forward." End quote.
01:05:32
Speaker
What we do know is a simple fact that Sheriff Craig Murphy made abundantly clear in an interview back in 2009 that's still true today. He noted, quote, one thing I've learned in my career is not all evidence disappears. It's just up to us to dig it out, end quote.
01:05:52
Speaker
Ervin had some identifiable scars, such as a birthmark on his waistline on his back, about a quarter inch by half an inch big, several scars on his abdomen, and a three quarter inch scar on the inside of his left thigh. He was called at the time by the name his foster parents gave him, Adam Herman. The saddest feeling in the world is that a broken child
01:06:21
Speaker
has been overlooked again. Do not let that happen, Sleuthhounds. Do not be passive bystanders this week, but bring up the name, Irvin Greniger III in conversation. Talk about the hard issues. Cry for justice. Post about him on social media. And above all, just as Sheriff Murphy urged us to do, keep digging.
01:06:49
Speaker
And if by some chance you're still out there, Irvin, I want you to know that your family has never stopped thinking about you, have never stopped hoping for justice.
01:07:02
Speaker
have never stopped loving you and that they want you to come home to them. That love, the kind that lasts through trial and tribulation, the kind Tiffany feels for all of her siblings, the ability to see the good and the hope through all of the pain as she does, that, sleuthounds, is what love should look like, the kind all people deserve.
01:07:29
Speaker
If you have any information concerning Ervin's whereabouts or details concerning his disappearance, any detail you remember, please contact the Butler County Sheriff's Department at 316-322-4254 or Butler County Investigations at 316-322-4257.
01:07:55
Speaker
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01:08:16
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.