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New Year, New Binge Part 2
3k Plays1 year ago
The New Years holiday is a celebration of new beginnings. With that in mind, we know this collaboration will introduce you to several amazing new true-crime podcasts that will quickly become your newest true-crime binges as we enter 2024 because, let’s face it, we know that’s exactly what you needed! With tons of episodes each, investigative curiosity, and a focus on advocacy, these podcasts will live up to the theme of our collaboration (“New Year, New Binge”) because you’ll soon find yourself falling in love with the podcasters included in these episodes. So, sit back, grab your detective caps, and let’s get this party started!
Be sure to follow all of the podcasts you enjoyed so you never miss a new episode. Podcasts are listed below in the order in which you will be introduced to them:
Crimelines https://linktr.ee/crimelines
Sirens: A Southern True Crime Podcast https://bit.ly/TheSirensNetwork
Private Dicks Podcast https://linktr.ee/privatedicks
Morning Cup of Murder www.morningcupofmurder.com
Persons Unknown https://personsunknown.buzzsprout.com
Fresh Hell Podcast https://freshhellpodcast.com/
Stories With Sapphire www.storieswithsapphire.com
Twisted Travel and True Crime https://linktr.ee/twistedtraveltruecrimepodcast
Excuse Me, That’s Illegal www.linktr.ee/excusemethatsillegal.pod
A Nefarious Nightmare www.linktr.ee/anefariousnightmarepodcast
The Trail Went Cold https://www.trailwentcold.com
Coffee and Cases Podcast https://linktr.ee/coffeeandcases
Teachers Talk Crime https://linktr.ee/teacherstalkcrime?fbclid=PAAablNVcCCe_8e_esABIA6xwBYR9wXcbACg__wuyIvH28Ai72S4wnOdqYvGg
True Crime Creepers https://linktr.ee/TrueCrimeCreepers
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to True Crime Podcasts
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome back to Crime Devotees. We're continuing our journey into the darkest corners of the podcast world and we've got an even more extensive lineup of spine-chilling and mind-bending true crime podcasts. I'm Johanna, co-host of Fresh Help Podcast, and I'm joined by the amazing Allison, co-host of Coffee and Cases podcast.
00:00:29
Speaker
we're about to reveal some hidden gems in the true crime podcast realm. Brace yourselves for an even deeper dive into the mysteries that await in 2024.
00:00:40
Speaker
Absolutely Alison, New Year, New Binge is still the theme and we've got some fantastic recommendations for you. So grab your detective hats, lock the doors and let's continue this true crime podcast thriller.
Crime Stories and Travel Adventures
00:00:54
Speaker
If you're looking for a true crime combined with a touch of vandalism, Twisted Travel and True Crime explores crimes in different corners of the world, making each episode a captivating journey.
00:01:10
Speaker
It was an uncomfortably hot and dry day in February of 2016 when two backpackers, one from Germany and one from Brazil, struck up a friendship and decided to head to Melbourne, Australia from Adelaide. They asked to ride share with 59-year-old Roman Hines. Little did they know, they had accepted a lift from a man who was planning a vile and terrifying attack.
00:01:34
Speaker
You're listening to Twisted Travel and True Crime, and I'm your host, Sandy. Let's hit the road.
Lena and Beatrice's Australian Journey
00:01:40
Speaker
Australia has been a country that people aspire to travel to. The appeal of the golden beaches, the surf culture, and the never-ending sunshine make it attractive to young backpackers in particular.
00:01:51
Speaker
as one of the most diverse countries in the world with over 10,000 gorgeous beaches, the incredible beauty of the outback, hundreds of tropical islands, vibrant cities, friendly people, and of course, we can't forget the strange and wonderful creatures that can't be found anywhere else in the world. Australia is at the top of many travelers bucket lists, including mine. Lena Rabente.
00:02:15
Speaker
a pretty petite blonde from Germany, was 23 years old when she decided she would visit the country.
00:02:22
Speaker
She was in her gap year. Gap years can look different for everyone, but for those of us who didn't have one or don't know what they are, it's essentially a full year or even a semester of learning experiences. Usually it's taken after high school and before taking a job or post-secondary education. Many people consider it to be an opportunity to immerse themselves in another culture or to challenge their comfort zones. It also gives them time to consider what they really want to do with their lives.
00:02:51
Speaker
Lena decided backpacking to Australia was what she wanted to do. As part of her preparation, she and her friends watched a backpacker horror film called Wolf Creek. If you haven't seen it, it's about three backpackers who find themselves taken captive and then hunted by a psychopath who chases them through several mining sites south of Wolf Creek in Australia.
Dangerous Ride with Roman Hines
00:03:13
Speaker
Lena laughed the movie off, thinking it was a work of pure fiction, although it was loosely based on true crime, including the murders of backpackers by serial killer Ivan Milat in the 1990s and Bradley Murdoch in 2001. Little did she know how close her real-life story would come to the plot of the movie. Lena's backpacking plans brought her to Adelaide. It was in this coastal city that she would meet a fellow backpacker named Beatrice.
00:03:42
Speaker
Beatrice, a Brazilian beauty with long dark hair and eyes, contrasted beautifully with Lena's fair skin and blonde hair. Beatrice was in Australia because she had met a young man online. She'd spent a week with him before deciding to take some short trips to see the sights.
00:04:00
Speaker
The girls were both young and adventurous, but it was also their first time traveling alone, and because they were new to Australia, they decided to pair up. They had the same destination in mind, the Great Ocean Road. This stretch of road is 150 miles long. It's one of the most beautiful scenic roads in the world. The girls would get to see rugged cliffs, beautiful rock formations, and stunning beaches along the way.
00:04:27
Speaker
The first part of their trip would take them to Melbourne. It was an eight-hour ride from Adelaide. Neither of the girls had much money, so they thought the best thing they could do was try to find a ride with someone else. They used an app called Gumtree. I believe it's a lot like Craigslist in the States. You can buy and sell things, look for jobs, and in Lena and Beatrice's case, rideshare or carpool.
00:04:53
Speaker
Beatrice posted an ad reading, Hey, I'm a 23-year-old Brazilian looking for someone to travel from Adelaide to Melbourne from the 9th to the 11th. I'm flexible. I can change my plans a bit. Just let me know if you're interested. Cheers. She had only two responses to her ad. One she felt very comfortable with, but unfortunately those plans fell through because the gentleman's car broke down the night before they were planning to leave.
00:05:20
Speaker
The second response she received was from a man named Roman. She decided to call him, even though she felt like he was impatient. When she wouldn't respond to him quickly, he would send her messages like, just reply, tell me if you want to go or not, and words along the lines of, don't be rude. Her options had been limited, and because she was traveling with Lena, she decided to call Roman and catch that ride after all.
00:05:47
Speaker
The following Tuesday, the three of them would meet to begin the road trip. When the girls first laid eyes on Roman Hines, they were surprised because he was older than they expected. He was fifty-nine and sported a handlebar mustache. The girls both had passing thoughts that, if they had been alone, they probably wouldn't have taken a ride with a tall, older man. What the girls didn't know was that they were now inside the car of a man who had no good intentions when it came to the girls.
00:06:16
Speaker
Blissfully unaware of what was going on inside Roman's head, the girls rode along happily. Beatrice took a short video of the three of them driving together. She has a huge smile on her face, the windows are open, and the fresh sea breeze is blowing in their faces. She's in the passenger seat next to Roman, and Lena is sitting in the backseat with their bags. Roman told the girls a little bit about the history of Australia, the landscapes that they passed, but mostly he was quiet.
00:06:46
Speaker
He'd stop occasionally for the girls to get out and take pictures. In one video Beatrice is taking a selfie, turning herself in a circle so her audience can see the beauty surrounding her. In the background, Roman's truck comes into view and then just as quickly moves off the screen.
00:07:04
Speaker
He worked to make them feel comfortable with him, and in all honesty they were. That is until two hours into the trip, when he unexpectedly drove off the main road into an area called Salt Creek. Salt Creek is a remote fishing destination that is part of the Kurong National Park. He tells the girls that most of the year that part of the beach they are driving on was underwater and they were lucky to be able to see it.
00:07:30
Speaker
He reassured them by saying it was a beautiful area and suggested they should camp there for the night. Once again, the girls are feeling a bit strange about the circumstances they are in, but they also want to enjoy the sights. Taking the advice of a local seemed like an opportunity they shouldn't miss.
Assault and Escape
00:07:47
Speaker
They rationalized.
00:07:49
Speaker
Roman got out of the truck and began pulling out camping equipment. The girls had a brief discussion about whether Roman was an okay guy. Beatrice reassured Lena, saying that she thought he was weird but that everything was okay. Roman set up a tent for himself and one for the girls. The campsite was in a bit of a depression where the beach ends and the sand dunes begin. The dunes were fairly small near the beach, but tall enough that if you walked behind one, someone wouldn't see you from the other side.
00:08:19
Speaker
They raised and lowered across the landscape like waves. There were bushes and scrub plants growing on the dunes varying in height from a foot to large enough to hide a car, but they were sporadic. The isolated campsite was sandwiched between sand dunes and brush on one side and a large extended beach leading to the water on the other.
00:08:41
Speaker
Once the tents and pop-up table were set up, Roman takes out a bit of a meal and some wine. Beatrice begins cooking some pasta. Lana is tired, so she decides to take a nap in the back of Roman's truck, while Beatrice decides to catch some sun. She puts on her bathing suit and begins to relax. After a while, Roman tells her that he has seen some kangaroo prints and there must be some nearby. He asks Beatrice if she wants to come with him to look for them.
00:09:11
Speaker
Beatrice, not wanting to miss an opportunity, trustingly agrees, and they began to walk further back from the beach into the undulating dunes. They searched, but they didn't see any kangaroos. Beatrice was becoming bored, so she told Roman she wanted to head back to camp. She turned to leave when he grabbed her and pushed her to the ground.
00:09:32
Speaker
She was so surprised by that attack that at first she thought he was joking. She turned towards him and said, don't do that. That's not funny. But that's when she realized he was going to hurt her. He climbed on her back and put his arm around her neck. Then he pulled out a knife, stabbing it into the sand near her head. Out came some ropes he'd concealed from her, and he began making movements toward tying her up. In an act of defiance, she grabbed the ropes and threw them away from her.
00:10:02
Speaker
He punched her in the face and told her that if she made it hard for him, he'd break her arm. He then grabbed her, pushing her face into the ground and placing himself over her, preventing her from getting up. He tied her hands together behind her back, and once he had total dominance over her, he cut her bathing suit off. He punched her and spit in her face, then began kissing and licking her face and her body.
00:10:29
Speaker
Beatrice was terrified and began thinking she might be murdered. She asked Roman if he was going to kill her, but he didn't answer. At that point, he shoved her bikini bottoms into her mouth in an attempt to keep her quiet. She spit them out and tried to reason with him, but that made him even more angry. He punched her over and over.
00:10:50
Speaker
Beatrice was forced to imagine what it would be like to die there. She pictured her mother having to see her dead body. She realized it was unlikely she'd survive or even be found. She pushed these negative thoughts aside and chose to think about what she had to do to get out of the situation. She thought she'd try to manipulate him by getting him closer to camp and closer to Lena.
00:11:13
Speaker
She asked him why it had to be this way, telling him that if he wanted to do something with her, all he had to do was ask. Things would be nicer if they could just go to one of the tents. They could relax together. It didn't have to be so rough. At this point, Roman turned her face down in the dirt and tied her ankles. He lifted her up so she could walk with small steps, but she couldn't run. He began walking her slowly back towards their campsite through the dunes.
00:11:42
Speaker
When the tents came into sight, Roman began having second thoughts, and he started to turn Beatrice away from the tents. She knew she only had one chance, so she screamed at the top of her lungs for Lena, hoping her screams would wake the sleeping girl up. In response to the screams, Roman punched Beatrice again and climbed on top of her.
00:12:04
Speaker
Luckily, Laina did hear the scream. She heard the terror in Beatrice's voice and jumped out of the car. She walked around the front of the vehicle listening for a second scream, but heard nothing.
00:12:17
Speaker
It had been a miracle that she heard the sound of Beatrice's scream over the sound of the wind and waves in the first place, but now she had to figure out where Beatrice was. As she wandered in the direction she thought the sound had come from, she saw a Roman leaning over Beatrice's naked body. She was shocked by what she saw, and her first emotion was anger. She yelled at him, shouting, Let her go! Let her go!
00:12:41
Speaker
She couldn't believe what her eyes were telling her. Lena grew more angry and wondered how the hell Roman could do this to Beatrice. Lena kept yelling at Roman, telling him to get off of Beatrice. He turned to face Lena. He tried to explain himself and said, disgustingly, I just wanted to try her. Then he began to chase Lena.
00:13:04
Speaker
Lena ran as quickly as she could back towards the truck. Beatrice was screaming after her, telling her to run and be careful because she thought Roman had an axe. He was holding something with a handle as he chased Lena.
00:13:18
Speaker
Lena ran for her phone in the truck. She wanted to call the police. As she opened the door, Roman caught up to her. She told him all she wanted was her bag. He yelled back at her, yeah, get your fucking bag.
Willie's Heroic Defense
00:13:31
Speaker
As she turned away from him to reach inside, he hit her on the top of the head with a hammer, as hard as he could.
00:13:39
Speaker
Lena thought she was going to die hurt so badly. She wasn't sure what she'd been hit with because she couldn't see for a few seconds after that first blow. She felt wobbly on her feet, but she knew she had to run. Roman chased her, hitting her again and again and again. She ran as fast as she could, feeling dazed and dizzy, stumbling.
00:14:03
Speaker
He would hit her four more times in the head, but she never gave up. She kept running. She was small, but fast. At six foot six inches and 61 years old, Roman was having a hard time catching her on his feet. So he retreated to his vehicle with the intention of driving her down. I'm sorry I have to leave you on a bit of a cliffhanger there, but I would love for you to come and listen to the rest of this episode on Twisted Travel and True Crime.
00:14:33
Speaker
It's called The Salt Creek Attack, Roman Hines, Lena Robente, and Beatrice. Please come check it out and check the rest of Twisted Travel and True Crime's social media on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. Thanks for listening.
00:14:52
Speaker
Excuse me, That's Illegal is a true crime comedy podcast that brings a lighthearted touch to some of the most outrageous and illegal acts. It's the perfect blend of humor and grime.
00:15:07
Speaker
Hey there, potential new listeners. I'm Leroy, host of the hit True Crime podcast, Excuse Me, That's Illegal, where I cover only the pettiest of criminals. I'm dropping new episodes every 10 days, and you can find, Excuse Me, That's Illegal, anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. I would love to have you come join me. That is enough self-promotion over here?
00:15:30
Speaker
Now let's get into a story about an old lady you do not want to mess with. And we are headed over to Rochester for this one baby. Rochester is the third most populous city in the state of New York. Beaten only by New York City and Buffalo. Some notable people born in Rochester include a couple of old dogs in Robert Forrester and John Lithgow. Great actors. So not too shabby as far as that goes.
00:15:56
Speaker
As for crime, is Rochester a safe place to live? Let's check in with our friends at NeighborhoodScout.com to find out more. Rochester has given us 7 on their crime index, meaning it's only safer than 7% of the cities in the United States.
00:16:12
Speaker
Chances of becoming a victim of a property crime in Rochester are 1 in 29, while chances of becoming a victim of a violent crime are 1 in 132. Not sure exactly what the intent of the criminal in this story was though, because things just didn't play out the way he intended. With that being said, let's join 82 year old grandmother, Willie Murphy, at her home.
00:16:33
Speaker
The date is November 21st, 2019. It's a Thursday night, a little before 11pm. And Willie? Well, she's winding down and getting ready for bed. 11pm on a Thursday night and she's still up. Was she a rock star or something? Most old ladies are dozing off in their easy chairs by 8 o'clock while watching Jeopardy. But Willie is definitely not like most old ladies, perhaps unlike any of them, as the cool kids would say.
00:16:59
Speaker
She's built different. Before we get into the events that are about to unfold, let's get some important background on this little firecracker. Willie stands at just 5 feet tall and 105 pounds, but she is full of energy and oozing charisma. She's also a bit of a local celebrity.
00:17:18
Speaker
One year earlier she was interviewed on The Today Show and ESPN also did a feature on her. This is all due to a little hobby Willie decided to pick up 10 years ago. And that hobby was knitting. No, just kidding. She actually got into powerlifting. She originally tried it out as a way to stay in shape, keep her independence and all that.
00:17:39
Speaker
But turns out, she was pretty darn good at it. It wasn't long before she joined the WNPF, the World National Powerlifting Federation, and she was smashing state records in her age bracket. As you can imagine, there ain't too many seniors who powerlift.
00:17:55
Speaker
They're mostly lifting pills and prescriptions from their many doctor's visits. Getting up out of that lazy boy and working the remote is likely how I'm gonna exercise if I ever hit 80. Here's what WNPF Vice President Ron Diamisis. Diamisis. Ah, something like that, whatever. Here's what he had to say about Willie. Quote, I've had other seniors competing in their low 70s or middle 70s.
00:18:22
Speaker
but Willie's my first 80 year and older. And as far as her personality, there's no one that can beat Willie." They actually had to create an 80 and older bracket specifically for Willie. Let's hear what she has to say about all this. Weightlifting Willie, quote, everybody's not able to power lift.
00:18:42
Speaker
A lot of older people, they're into swimming, yoga, tai chi, various other things, but I guess I'm just unusual because I'm into natural powerlifting." Willie's old school. She doesn't have a trainer or any of that shit. She doesn't really diet. She's not down in protein shakes and bars and calorie counting.
00:19:04
Speaker
She still enjoys pizza and the occasional rum with cranberry juice. Delicious. She works out at her local YMCA gym a few days a week. She figured things out by just kind of watching the men lifting weights and she picked up pointers here and there. Let's get another weightlifting Willy quote about how she got started.
00:19:22
Speaker
I was surprised that people were thinking that it was strange of me to be in the gym with mostly men at that particular time, but I kept getting stronger and stronger. And I don't wear any belts, I don't use chalk, and I don't use the ammonia like other people when they compete in a competition. It just happened, I guess. I'm just one of those things that nature is taking good care of me.
00:19:45
Speaker
end quote. I'm not going to pretend I know much about weightlifting, but Willie is impressive. Sure, she's the only one participating at meets in her category right now, but I mean, at 82, she can do one-handed push-ups and she can deadlift 225 pounds repeatedly, like a boss.
00:20:02
Speaker
Like I said, she's only 105 pounds, so I'd say that's pretty great. In 2014, Willie was named WNPF Powerlifter of the Year, a very prestigious honor. She also held a government job for 40 years. She was a social worker, and now she volunteers at her local health center, helping elderly people, probably most of them younger than her, do basic exercises.
00:20:26
Speaker
Willie's an extremely accomplished woman, a good person, and tough as they come. Okay, I think we've got a pretty good handle on old Willie here, and what she's all about.
00:20:35
Speaker
So let's get back to her home on that cold November night just before 11pm. As she gets ready for bed, Willie hears some thumping at her front door. She walks over and hollers, who is it, to the person on the other side. She ain't no fool. She's not opening the door this time of night until she gets some details. There's a man yelling for her to let him in. He claims he's been shot and he needs an ambulance.
00:21:00
Speaker
Willie runs over to the telephone and dials 911 and it's at this moment she hears another loud bang. Ah hell no. The man busted down her door and now it's just old Willie face to face with this strange man in her home. And guess what? He hasn't been shot. It was all a ruse. That's when the pruney power lifter springs into action.
00:21:21
Speaker
She grabs a small table close by and smacked. You know what? Let's hear how it all went down according to Willie in her animated retelling of events in an interview with ABC 13 News. Weightlifting Willie quote, I'm alone and I'm old, but guess what? I am tough. She says as she flexes her muscles. And you want to know what happened? He picked the wrong house to break into.
00:21:46
Speaker
I took that table and I got to working on him and guess what? The table broke and it had middle legs and I'm jugging him and jugging him and jugging him and when he's down I'm jumping on him.
00:22:03
Speaker
and the telephone is still on for 911 and I'm running into the kitchen and there's a bottle of baby shampoo on the table. I grab the shampoo and guess what? He's still on the ground and I'm pouring it all on his face. The whole thing and he's trying to get up and he's pulling and I got the broom and now he's pulling the broom and I'm hitting him. I'm hitting him with the broom. I'm hitting him and guess what? He wants to get the heck out of there.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I'm trying to help him get out of the house, but he's too heavy. I can't move him. He's dead weight.
00:22:40
Speaker
And at that time, the police arrive on my porch." End quote. I love Willie. She's hilarious. As she's describing the scene, she's wearing a red bandana, du-reg kind of thing, and a world national powerlifting federation muscle shirt. And I gotta say, she looks great for 82. She has a lot of baggage under her eyes, which is to be expected. But other than that, smooth skin. Very toned muscular biceps. Not an ounce of flab on those bad boys. No bingo wings on her.
00:23:09
Speaker
as I like to call them. You know that flabby skin hanging below the arms? Yep, her body's holding up real nice. Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a pervert there.
00:23:19
Speaker
But it's the truth, and she's very sharp, still got her wits about her. There was a lot going on in her retelling of events there. Imagine this man. We never find out his name, but he's 29 years old, and he busts into this 82 year old woman's home. She's only 5 feet tall, a little over 100 pounds, soaking wet. She's probably on a robe with curlers in her hair. He's likely thinking, damn.
00:23:43
Speaker
I couldn't have picked an easier victim if I tried. And boy was he wrong. She beat the brakes off him. It sounded like a wrestling match. He's getting smashed with tables, chairs, jabbed with brooms, baby shampoo smeared in his eyes. She's jumping on him. Oh man, I'd buy that fight on pay-per-view in a heartbeat. I'd pay 50 bucks right now. For sure. I like how at the end of it she was even trying to help the guy out, feeling sorry for him. Getting the heck out of there before the police showed up.
00:24:12
Speaker
Thankfully, police were pretty cool about the whole situation once they arrived. They said the man was extremely intoxicated and had no clue what was going on. I don't doubt the man was inebriated, but it makes you wonder how much of his cluelessness was due to the booze and how much was due to the absolute beatdown Willie just unleashed upon him.
00:24:32
Speaker
I'm not sure what the man's intentions were, but Willie, being the caring soul she is, asked police not to press charges. She also made sure that the guy received proper medical treatment. She knew she messed him up pretty good. After the intruder was taken to the hospital, police stuck around for a while, hanging out on Willie's front porch, partly to make sure she was okay, but also so they could take selfies with her. After all, she's a local legend.
00:24:58
Speaker
So there you have it, a happy ending. The intruder learned a hard lesson. Strange that he didn't get arrested, but I suppose the humiliation of getting roughed up by an 82 year old 105 pound granny was punishment enough. At least he didn't have to go to jail. And Willie didn't seem rattled by the situation at all. If anything, she just has another cool story to tell her pals over at the YMCA.
00:25:22
Speaker
Alright, that'll do it for the tale of the bodybuilding badass Willie Murphy. I hope you enjoyed it, even half as much as I did. A nefarious nightmare lives up to its name. It's a deep dive into the darkest realms of crime, focusing awareness mainly on lesser known crimes and crimes against those who are especially vulnerable. It will leave you questioning the very nature of humanity.
Diverse Podcast Themes
00:25:49
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Courtney and I am one half of a true crime podcast called A Nefarious Nightmare. My co-host is also my best friend, Amanda Cronin. I've known her for over 10 years now and we decided one day to start a podcast and here we are. To explain, our podcast considers victims and survivors bees because bees are strong, resilient, yet vulnerable. And as we all know, the world can't survive and thrive without bees.
00:26:18
Speaker
We all know this, right? I hope so. Typically, we like to dive into the psychology behind the crime and delve deep into things such as narcissism and sociopathy. Amanda and I are versed in statistics behind sexual assault based off of my background and working with lawyers to prevent sex abuse in child-serving organizations. The majority of our episodes discuss sexual abuse or sexual assault.
00:26:42
Speaker
In a lot of our episodes, you hear straight from the survivor themselves. Every now and then, we will delve into a case that is a little more well known, either because it's relevant to the movement in some way, or just that it piqued our interest, such as the case that we bring you today about Tamla Horsford.
00:27:00
Speaker
Here's a small preview of that episode titled, Tequila and a Prayer. What really happened to Tamla Horsford? We hope you enjoy it. We want to make you all aware that, as with every case we cover, all parties are presumed innocent until proven guilty by law. We shouldn't have to give that disclaimer, but there it is.
00:27:22
Speaker
Take that however you may and deduce from this case what you will. We have our own minds made up, and I think after listening to this podcast as a whole you can probably guess what that is, but please, draw your own conclusions. Always keep the victim and their family in your mind when doing so.
00:27:40
Speaker
Forsyth County, Georgia has a major history of extreme racism, starting around 1912. In 1910, there were just over 10,000 white and 1,000 black people residing in Forsyth County.
00:27:55
Speaker
There are several examples of the history of severe racism, which you will come across in a quick Google search. But one major example is that on September 9, 1912, a white 18-year-old girl named May Crow was found brutally raped and murdered in a wooded area. The only item that was found by police was a small pocket mirror nearby and it was assumed to have belonged to a 16-year-old boy by the name of Ernest Knox.
00:28:25
Speaker
Shortly after, he and a few friends were arrested, despite there being no link to the crime. One of his friends was a 24 year old by the name of Rob Edwards. He is important, so remember his name. They did live close by and they were all black. So it's been alleged that they were targeted due to those facts. False confessions have been a topic brought up in many true crime shows and podcasts.
00:28:54
Speaker
And it's been believed that Ernest gave a false confession because he was taunted and threatened by the lead deputy via mock lynching. All of them were arrested and then held at the county jail. There was quite a bit of public outrage and an all-white mob then busted in and shot Rob, murdering him. And then they dragged him through the streets right up to the entrance of City Hall where he was then hanged publicly from a telephone pole as if to send some message.
00:29:24
Speaker
The mob then went door to door demanding that all black residents leave the county within 24 hours and then they'd ransacked their homes, killed their livestock, and destroyed everything that they owned. This county stayed primarily white until 1987 when this quote-unquote racial cleansing was highly publicized.
00:29:44
Speaker
Activists and allies protested to remind the county of the heavily racist past, while several white residents retaliated with a so-called peaceful protest in response, holding signs saying things such as, keep Forsyth white, and hurled slurs and hate at the black residents.
00:30:02
Speaker
The white residents also threw rocks and other heavy items at them, so today the county has a population of more than 244,000, and while more than 182,000 are white, only 9,500, or 4%, are black, so it's changed, but not by much.
00:30:22
Speaker
As a whole, this was known as, quote, racial cleansing that drove 1,100 black residents out of Forsyth County, end quote, according to one of our sources. All of this to say, essentially, it hasn't gotten better.
00:30:38
Speaker
We as well as many others agree that this is hugely relevant to the entire story. So it's important to be aware that while we do not know whether anything had happened to Tamua was racially motivated or not, we do know that there are racist undertones that do take place in the county altogether as well as in this case, which includes some insensitive and tone deaf things that were said after she had passed.
00:31:08
Speaker
some will argue that because there's a minority that's also highly suspicious in this case that this can't be a racism issue I'm here to tell you that this is not at all true please remove that from your mind moving forward when listening to this episode
00:31:25
Speaker
If you're looking at this entire story through that lens, like you know, saying, oh they were Latino so they couldn't have been racist, then your perception of the whole case is skewed and you probably aren't paying much attention to the bigger picture which is, a black woman died under mysterious circumstances and the entire case is a clusterfuck from the moment she was seen. Tamla Horsford
00:31:48
Speaker
also referred to as Tam, was born October 10, 1978 in St. Vincent and the Grenadines in the Caribbean. She lived there until she was 12 when she and her family moved to the Bronx in New York. When she was older, she moved to Florida where she met her husband, Leander, also known as Lee, who had a daughter from a previous relationship and they went on to have five sons together.
00:32:15
Speaker
By all accounts, Tam was close with Lee's daughter and made her feel included and accepted her as though she was her own. When Tamla passed away, her youngest son was only four years old. Tam had a really close friend by the name of Michelle Graves, who we will bring up later again very briefly, but she is a huge reason why this case has gotten a lot of attention.
00:32:39
Speaker
Tamla was known to be a compassionate and selfless person. She was the life of the party. She liked to laugh, to dance, to have fun. Leander had to relocate for work, so the Horsefords picked up and moved to Georgia five and a half years prior to this whole incident.
00:32:55
Speaker
Tam quickly made friends because she's warm, outgoing, charismatic, and really had this motherly instinct to her. She was heavily involved in her children's extracurriculars. Basically, she was the kind of mom who was there at the football games, cheering her kids on, did the whole PTA thing, and also liked to have fun with the adults when the kids went to bed, which that is absolutely fine. Side note,
00:33:18
Speaker
We as parents, we deserve some time to unwind and let loose too, so please don't judge. I mean, parenting isn't our entire personality or anything. Yeah, that's part of it, but I mean, sometimes we just want to chill, man. Anyway, her daughter was pregnant, and she was just thrilled about becoming a grandma.
00:33:37
Speaker
She was simply a free spirit, but also really cared a lot about her kids. She also really enjoyed making friends. It was one of those situations where people could have likely taken advantage of her kindness. There was a birthday party being celebrated, which was held by the homeowner, Jean Myers, who was turning 46, and it was planned and organized by Stacy Smith, a friend of Tamless.
00:34:02
Speaker
Tam knew Jean from a youth football game held that August in which both of their sons were in attendance. The party was supposed to start at 7.30, but Tamla was busy cooking and feeding her family. Prior to even coming to the sleepover, Tam opened up to her husband Lee and said she didn't feel right about going, but didn't want to be rude or inconsiderate. So she went anyways, arriving closer to 9pm. This was in Cumming, Georgia.
00:34:32
Speaker
which is located in the center of Forsyth County, about 39 miles northeast from downtown Atlanta, which is one reason we brought up the horrific background on Forsyth in the beginning. Now, it is important to bring up here that John was also dating a pretrial probation officer by the name of Jose Barrera.
00:34:53
Speaker
who worked for the Forsyth County Sheriff's Department. Now, keep this in mind because this does come to play later, but also, it's mighty weird that just about every case we cover, and which the result wasn't true justice, has had some heavy link to law enforcement. You know, the good old boys club, if you will. Imagine that.
00:35:15
Speaker
But anyway, Tam hung out with either Stacy or Jean the week previous for another event, so Tam felt comfortable enough and came to the birthday sleepover. They didn't allow men to be there, but, you know, men ended up sticking around as you're gonna find out.
00:35:32
Speaker
Tam showed up at this party in this super adorable white onesie with gray paw prints all over it. She had showed up with a big nice bottle of tequila as a gift for Jean. It's been said that Jean did not appreciate this, which I get it. If you don't drink tequila, you don't drink tequila, do you? But the way she accepted her gift wasn't with a thank you or really any kindness.
00:36:00
Speaker
It was more as if someone removed a dirty diaper and gave it to her. She was extremely stuck up about it and said something to the effect of, quote, I don't drink tequila. I don't like this. And even you drink it. Stuff like that.
00:36:17
Speaker
All right, if you haven't watched that show on Netflix called The Watcher, I'm about to give a slight spoiler alert, so you might want to skip ahead about 10 seconds. But to give an example of how Jean accepted the tequila, Jennifer Coolidge's character, Karen, gave the exact same vibe I'm imagining when her two neighbors ended up showing up with a pie and some brownies in the last episode. I'd imagine that Jean acted the same way. So after this not so nice exchange,
00:36:47
Speaker
There were points where they all had fun, ate gumbo, watched the LSU game, and also played cards against humanity. At one point, Jose and another man at this quote-unquote, no boys allowed, adult white woman sleepover, did come through for a bite to eat, some of the party food, and maybe catch glimpses of the game. It was brought up that Jose kept mentioning things like, ugh, women, as if he was a chauvinist.
00:37:17
Speaker
I don't know exactly how relevant to the case that might be, but maybe it is. All right. Sorry, guys. Another side note. I do remember listening to a podcast back in 2020 where they were pointing out the picture of all the ladies together, and it was noted that she absolutely was the light in that darkness. You know, when you're in a room full of stuck up Neiman Marcus customers judging you because you aren't wearing Chanel, but everyone else outside of Neiman Marcus wants to hang out with you because you're fucking awesome and hilarious and beautiful.
00:37:46
Speaker
sorry, I had a flashback, but it was quite like this. Everyone else seemed, you know, robotic and Stepford wife like, you know, basic, as if they were tolerating more than having a good time. And I mean, I don't know if that's true, but I definitely saw it and agreed and absolutely sympathized with Tam in that moment.
00:38:10
Speaker
Yes, Tam seemed to have felt a little left out from what we can see. What's even shittier is that people cracked a few jokes such as saying that she was a female Bob Marley because she's from the Caribbean, but she stayed connected with Bridget, whom you can
00:38:28
Speaker
find the rest of this episode in season three, episode 14 of A Nefarious Nightmare. If you've gained some insight or really just enjoyed this episode, we have over 120 episodes for you to binge. That's six full seasons of content for your new year, new binge. You can find A Nefarious Nightmare anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thank you so much for featuring us on your platform. And like we tell everybody listening, be vigilant.
00:38:56
Speaker
For when you mess with the bees, you get the hive. New episodes every Tuesday at Midnight Central. For those who enjoy a classic mystery with a side of investigative prowess, the trail went cold as a must listen. It's like being transported into a detective's office with each episode dedicated to solving unsolved cases.
00:39:25
Speaker
Hello everyone, this is Robin Warder, host of the True Crime podcast, The Trail Went Cold.
Podcast Anniversary and Cold Cases
00:39:31
Speaker
In case you've never heard of my show, we release weekly episodes, which each cover a different cold case or unsolved mystery. It's incredible to think that at the time of this recording, The Trail Went Cold is only a few months shy of its 8 year anniversary as a podcast, and during that time period, we have released over 350 episodes and over 30 minisodes.
00:39:53
Speaker
Even though we focus exclusively on unsolved cases, we always love it when some of them actually achieve a resolution and, to our delight, quite a few cold cases we have featured on a podcast have wound up being solved these past eight years. In fact, we recently completed our fourth special update episode, which chronicled all the cases we covered, which either wound up being solved or had major developments in 2023.
00:40:20
Speaker
And of course, when we originally started the trail went cold, we never envisioned that there would be so many updates to our featured cases that we'd wind up having enough material for a total of four update episodes, but the way things have been going these past few years, I'm sure we'll still have many more to come. Anyway, for this special collaboration episode, I'm going to talk about one of our most unusual updates, which also happened to be connected to one of the more unique missing persons cases we've ever covered.
00:40:50
Speaker
Like many true crime podcasts, the trail went cold sometimes receives requests from the loved ones of missing and murdered victims to cover their stories on our show. Over three years ago, I received one of these requests from a woman named Mindy Wilson, but what stood out is that she wanted us to cover the unsolved disappearance of her grandmother, who went missing all the way back in 1945.
00:41:13
Speaker
The victim in question was Mary Jane Van Gilder, who was 34 years old when she was last confirmed to be alive, and even though Mindy had not yet been born and never got to meet her grandmother, she still wanted to find out what happened to her.
00:41:26
Speaker
And what made this situation even more unique is that Mindy actually put me in touch with a law enforcement officer, Detective Adam Turner of the Shelby Police Department, who was actively investigating this case even though it was 75 years old. So in September of 2020, the trail went cold dropped episode number 190, which covered the unsolved disappearance of Mary Jane Van Gilder.
00:41:50
Speaker
Of course, this was not a missing persons case with a lot of evidence to work with, and you could not pinpoint an exact time or place when Mary Jane went missing. Mary Jane was the mother of five children who lived in Marion County, West Virginia, but her marriage was an abusive and unhappy one, so in 1944, she decided to move away and relocate to Ohio, and got a job at the Shelby Army Air Force Depot near the town of Shelby.
00:42:17
Speaker
She remained in the area for a year, but in March of 1945, Mary Jane quit her job at the depot, and just seemed to drop out of sight, as she cut off all communication with her family. Now, from here on out, I'm actually going to be talking about an entirely different case, so if you want to learn more about Mary Jane Van Gilder's story, I suggest you go back and listen to Trail went Cold episode number 190.
00:42:42
Speaker
One lead that Detective Adam Turner wanted to investigate was an unidentified decedent whose skeletal remains were found in a drainage ditch in Preble County, Ohio on May 25, 1968. The original coroner had been unable to determine the victim's exact cause of death, but it was theorized that they might have been buried in a shallow grave somewhere before heavy rain and flooding hit the area and caused the remains to be unearthed.
00:43:09
Speaker
The coroner believed that the remains belonged to a female who was between 30 and 50 years old and may have been pregnant at some point in her life. Since she could not be identified, she became known as the Preble County Jane Doe as well as the nickname Preble County Penny and was buried at Mount Hill Cemetery in the town of Eaton. Detective Turner wanted to investigate the possibility that Preble County Penny was Mary Jane Van Gilder, so he arranged to have her exhumed in August of 2019.
00:43:39
Speaker
Turner held the mentality that even if this victim wasn't Mary Jane, she could still be identified, and this might help provide answers for another family somewhere. Well that turned out to be exactly what happened, but it also led to the uncovering of an all new rabbit hole.
00:43:55
Speaker
After the Preble County Jane Doe was exhumed, investigators were unable to construct a full DNA profile for her since her bones had degraded so much over the past 5 decades.
Family Mystery Unraveled
00:44:06
Speaker
But surprisingly, the examination turned up the presence of male DNA on the remains, though it was possible that it could have been left there by a male contributor or wound up on the remains accidentally due to contamination.
00:44:19
Speaker
It would take about 3 years in order to construct a full DNA profile for this victim, and it came about after the Shelby Police Department partnered within an organization called Moxie Forensic Investigations who specialized in identifying unknown decedents. The remains were subsequently sent to Intermountain Forensics, a non-profit forensic DNA testing laboratory with specialized procedures for extracting DNA from human bones, even older ones which were heavily degraded.
00:44:50
Speaker
This procedure would cost $5,000, but Criminal Coffee Company, a business run by Stephanie Harlow and Derek LaVassar, co-hosts of the Crime Weekly podcast, generously donated the full funding, and in the end, a DNA profile was finally constructed for the Preble County Jane Doe. After the DNA was entered into GEDmatch, it would eventually be linked to biological relatives of the victim.
00:45:15
Speaker
Well this past November, the Shelby Police Department held a press conference in which Detective Turner announced that the decedent had finally been identified but there was a surprising twist. That male DNA found on the remains was not caused by contamination. The Preble County Jane Doe was actually a John Doe and his name was Albert Allen Frost.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yes, it sounds like the original coroner mistakenly believed that Albert was female because he had a much smaller stature than usual for a male. He was also quite wrong about the victim once having been pregnant, but you have to remember that we are talking about 1968 forensics here. The identification was made possible when Tina Barrett, the granddaughter of one of Albert's sisters, provided a sample of her DNA for a comparison to the remains, and a genetic match was made.
00:46:08
Speaker
It turned out that Albert Alan Frost had originally been born in Hamilton, Ohio on January 25, 1935 and was the youngest of eight siblings. He was a military veteran who served in the United States Army, but he was also a very shy individual who was not particularly talkative. In retrospect, his grand-niece Tina suspects that Albert may have been on the autism spectrum, but nobody would have even known what that was back then.
00:46:37
Speaker
He pretty much lived a transient lifestyle, it did not seem to have a permanent home, and he also had a history of brushes with the law. Since Albert would drift in and out of his family's lives and disappear for long periods of time without settling down, this probably explains why he was never officially reported missing.
00:46:55
Speaker
As far as his surviving relatives remember, he was last confirmed to be alive sometime in 1963 or 1964, but then the family seemed to lose track of Albert and rarely spoke about him over the next several decades. Albert had one marriage which only lasted 14 months before they divorced and he is believed to have had a daughter at one point who was adopted in 1963 and had her name legally changed.
00:47:21
Speaker
Detective Turner was able to locate this woman and speak to her and needless to say, she was quite overwhelmed by the whole situation. There is no official record of Albert's death anywhere, but while there are no obvious signs of trauma on his remains to indicate foul play, there is definitely good reason to suspect he may have been murdered. After all, if the theory about the flooding having unearthed Albert's remains from a shallow grave is correct, then someone had to bury him there.
00:47:52
Speaker
While two of Albert's closest surviving relatives are his nieces, Denise Frost and Diana Frost Russell, the surviving daughters of one of Albert's brothers, George Frost. They both claimed that when they were children, there was always a rumor circulated among the family that Albert had been murdered before his body was rolled up in a piece of carpet and left on someone's porch.
00:48:14
Speaker
Unfortunately, since both of Albert's parents and all of his siblings, including George, have since passed away, and his surviving relatives were children at the time he went missing, no one has been able to provide some additional context about this rumor. But the story gets even stranger and here's where the term rabbit hole enters the equation.
00:48:35
Speaker
It turns out that one of Albert's sisters, Clara Frost Koprowski, also vanished without a trace sometime between 1950 and 1952, when she would have been in her early 20s. And of course, it does not appear she was ever found, and there's no record of her ever having been reported missing. At one point, George apparently told his daughters that his mother had sold Clara to a German man.
00:48:59
Speaker
Since Clara's husband, Chester Kaprowski, married her when she was still a teenager, I get the impression that he's the German man George was referring to, but this remark about her being sold to him is all sorts of creepy. Well, Clara and Chester had a son and a daughter together, and Chester got remarried to another woman not long after Clara disappeared.
00:49:22
Speaker
It's been reported that Chester was abusive towards Clara during the marriage, so this might be the reason she suddenly went missing, but both Chester and their two children are now deceased, so we have no real evidence to work with. In a crazy coincidence, it turns out that Mary Jane Van Gilder had a sister named Rose, who also seemed to disappear sometime during the 1940s, but the details are too vague to know what actually happened to her.
00:49:49
Speaker
But what are the odds that the investigation into the disappearance of the Van Gilder sisters would lead to the uncovering of another completely unrelated case in which two siblings from the same family went missing at different times? So yes, there are so many answered questions about what actually happened to Albert and Clara.
00:50:09
Speaker
After Albert's death certificate is completed, a new investigation will be launched in order to determine if he was the victim of a homicide, and hopefully, Claire's disappearance might get some attention as well. But when I first learned about the Mary Jean Van Gilder case back in 2020, I did not expect it to uncover all these additional mysteries within a mystery.
00:50:32
Speaker
But Detective Adam Turner, who is one of the most dedicated law enforcement officers I have ever seen, he was spot on when he provided his reasoning for exhuming the Preble County Jane Doe four years ago. It may not have led to a resolution in Mary Jane's case, but it did provide some answers to the family of Albert Alan Frost, a victim who otherwise would have been completely lost to history.
00:50:56
Speaker
As a side note, when Detective Turner spoke at the press conference about Albert's identification, he actually gave a shout out to The Trail Went Cold, as well as the other podcasts and YouTube shows who put this story into the spotlight. It was a pretty cool moment, since that was the first time our podcast had ever been mentioned at a police press conference, but admittedly, I don't think any of the true crime creators who took on the Van Gilder case expected things to lead in this direction.
00:51:23
Speaker
I know that true crime podcasters sometimes get criticized if they decide to cover old or cold cases from several decades ago, as some people believe it's a waste of time and there's no chance that these cases being solved. And I know that when law enforcement officers like Adam Turner take on these cases, they sometimes face criticism as well. However, stories like this only demonstrate that it's all worthwhile.
00:51:47
Speaker
I also wanted to mention that in addition to this case, 2023 saw the resolution of another ancient unsolved mystery which was once covered on the trail went cold. The abduction and disappearance of two year old Mary Agnes Maroney, which took place all the way back in 1930. So yeah, it's never too late to solve a cold case.
00:52:09
Speaker
Anyway, thanks so much for listening, and thanks to Joanna and Allison for organizing this collaboration episode. If you want to hear my episode about Mary Jane Van Gilder, or any other episodes for that matter, my podcast has got a huge backlog of episodes you can binge through.
00:52:26
Speaker
So be sure to check out my website at trailwentcold.com or look for The Trail Went Cold wherever you listen to your podcasts. Everyone have yourself a Happy New Year and here's hoping that a lot more cold cases get solved in 2024.
00:52:45
Speaker
Next is Coffee and Cases with my co-host for this collaboration, Alison. Imagine sipping your favourite brew while unravelling the details behind lesser-known unsolved cases. This podcast combines the warmth of your morning coffee with the chill of true crime.
00:53:04
Speaker
The New Year is a time when most are making plans to attend a party with family or friends to welcome in the New Year.
Lauren's Disappearance
00:53:12
Speaker
The idea of a New Year holds promise of a change for the better. It's why we make New Year's resolutions. They're promises to ourselves for a future better than our past. A vocalized yearning of something we desperately want.
00:53:29
Speaker
For the Will Hoyt family, like Sister Michelle Osborne, with whom I had the pleasure of speaking for our coverage of this case, their resolution for 2024 hasn't changed since 2023 to find Lauren Will Hoyt.
00:53:48
Speaker
Lauren, the baby of the family, her parents, and her sister and brother, eight and ten years her elder, respectively, grew up in a suburban area near Chicago, Illinois. When Lauren's brother and then her sister graduated high school and joined the military, it effectively meant that Lauren was almost like an only child at home.
00:54:11
Speaker
In high school, Lauren was introduced to marijuana and later to heroin. That introduction effectively started a battle with addiction that Lauren would face her whole life.
00:54:24
Speaker
Now, we make it a point on our show to emphasize that factors like addiction, mental health, homelessness, and other factors have no bearing on the value of human life. Much of the time, though, unfortunately, it's those cases that don't get the same coverage as others, leaving families feeling often like they're fighting for answers and justice alone.
00:54:51
Speaker
The picture I'd like to paint instead is what Michelle envisions when she thinks of her favorite memory of her sister, Lauren. Here's Michelle. Probably my favorite would be when we were all little. My brother played in football, like the town's football team. I was a cheerleader and
00:55:18
Speaker
She wanted to do everything that like my brother and I did. And my mom ended up sewing her like her own little cheerleading costume. I think she's probably like three or four, like barely talk, barely walk, cute little chubby cheeks girl.
00:55:36
Speaker
But she was like our little mascot, our little cheerleading mascot. And that's basically how she was the whole life, like goofy, adorable person. A few years after high school, Lauren and her boyfriend Mike moved to Melrose Park, an incorporated area also known as Layden Park, a neighboring town to where she grew up, right outside of Cook County in Illinois.
00:56:02
Speaker
While living on her own though, she continued to struggle with addiction, having stretches of sobriety dotted with periods where her addiction won out. Despite her personal battles, she stayed in contact with her family who were always trying to be a cheerleader for her in the same way that she was for others.
00:56:23
Speaker
In early January, 2023, Lauren's boyfriend had called Michelle to check if anyone in the family had heard from Lauren in the last several days. No one had, which was unusual since, as I said a moment ago, Lauren was in contact with her sister fairly regularly and spoke with her parents about once a week, if not more often. From this point of the phone call from her boyfriend, the search for Lauren began.
00:56:53
Speaker
Part of the problem her family faced in their search stems from the lack of straightforward answers, no matter what questions they asked. Where was Lauren last seen? When was she last seen? To illustrate, even in my research, some reports stated that Lauren was last seen leaving her home on December 29th, 2022. Other reports state that Lauren was last seen leaving a hotel on Mannheim Road on December 31st.
00:57:24
Speaker
It is believed that she may have been heading to Franklin Park, Illinois, again, a neighboring town, but we can't be sure on that detail either. Her family further don't even know whether Lauren would have left of her own accord, whether there was an accident, or whether she met with foul play.
00:57:49
Speaker
Still further, her family can't answer to a motive for either her leaving or for foul play.
00:57:57
Speaker
While most families in the cases we cover have some idea, some gut feeling of what may have happened to their loved one, even that aspect of Lauren's disappearance remains a huge question mark. I asked Michelle since there wasn't one theory that made more sense to her than any other, if there were at least a theory that she believes could be ruled out. But even that was something she didn't feel comfortable doing.
00:58:25
Speaker
What have been the tips or the rumors that you've learned over the course of this last year? I mean, not anything. I mean, what we have heard or what we think is, you know, it could be anywhere from, you know, with her being a heroin addict, she OG'd the 29th, you know, and then who knows, you know, was she with people and they were too scared so they hit
00:58:55
Speaker
her body somewhere? Or is she running from a drug dealer? Is she, I mean, does she end up getting trafficked? No idea. Wow. Are there any, I guess, rumors or theories that you feel like could be ruled out at least? I mean, if we're, you know, if there are all these different possibilities, are there any that you think, okay, that is not like Lauren? No.
00:59:20
Speaker
No, unfortunately not, because I mean, I just, I don't know. Right. And I have no feeling one way or another, you know, like, is she out there? Is she not? I don't know. Whatever happened to Lauren right before New Year's in 2022 could literally have been anything. While I don't feel comfortable suggesting one theory over another, I can provide the few details we do have.
00:59:49
Speaker
Here's what we know from Lauren's final days. We know that Lauren spoke to Michelle on December 28th and that she didn't mention anything particularly troubling to her sister. Lauren's boyfriend Mike said that he spoke with Lauren a day or two later. Unfortunately, some of Mike's recollection of dates and times has been a little fuzzy, so it's been hard to nail down specifics.
01:00:15
Speaker
Michelle learned from him, though, that Lauren was supposed to be staying at a nearby hotel for new years. Despite telling Michelle that he had called the hotel in order to reach Lauren, unfortunately, when he spoke with Michelle, Mike could no longer remember the name of that hotel.
01:00:35
Speaker
The family spent weeks searching that tip to try to figure out what may have happened to Lauren. Then in February, 2023, Michelle remembered that Lauren had sent her an email asking her to be a recovery person to her iCloud in case anything ever happened. Now Michelle could gain information. Hope elevated. Would this lead to answers?
01:01:02
Speaker
When Michelle looked, however, there was really only one thing that she saw that gave her any information, a photo. That photo was a selfie taken in front of a local hotel and it was time stamped on December 31st.
01:01:19
Speaker
so we know that Lauren was still alive on the 31st, the date of the photo. It also seemed very likely that the hotel Mike remembered Lauren staying in was the hotel in front of which her last photo was taken.
01:01:36
Speaker
According to Michelle, Lauren's boyfriend informed her that Lauren had left their shared home with a plan to go to the hotel to stay there for several days. Given that the last photo on Lauren's phone was taken in front of a hotel, they now knew one more piece to the puzzle. Where Lauren had been. Maybe the hotel would have video footage that could lead to more answers. Again, hope rose.
01:02:04
Speaker
And again, it quickly disappeared. Sadly, that particular hotel only kept its video surveillance footage for five days before writing over it. That short timeframe seems crazy to me, but Michelle told me the following about the neighborhood itself. It's, there's kind of, I guess like growing up, it wasn't so bad.
01:02:34
Speaker
but it's always been known for like the late night bars and strip clubs and things like that. Chicago O'Hare Airport is right there as well. So just like cheaper hotels, motels, things like that. And I feel like over the years it's probably gotten a little worse, but like I wouldn't be scared to walk around there by myself.
01:03:04
Speaker
Yeah. Now had she been there long? I think her and her boyfriend lived at that place for like a year or two. Okay.
01:03:18
Speaker
I asked Michelle about Lauren's relationship with her boyfriend Mike. Obviously, our mind goes, one, to those closest to the victim, and two, to the last person who we can verify saw her alive. Both of those people would be Mike.
01:03:35
Speaker
And she responded that their relationship seemed normal to her. Perhaps it wasn't healthy since they both suffered from addiction issues. And Michelle admitted that she didn't know Mike well. But from the time she was around the two of them, they had dated for five or six years after all. He and Lauren had seemed happy.
01:03:58
Speaker
While Michelle has, in the time after Lauren's disappearance, heard more menacing rumors about Mike, she also acknowledged in our conversation that, other than wishing Mike were still more involved in searching for Lauren, that she wasn't given reason to believe he was directly involved in anything that could have happened to Lauren. And we discussed how all people grieve differently.
01:04:25
Speaker
though she does wonder if he might know more than he has revealed to the family so far. While Lauren's family hasn't had many breaks in terms of gaining information about Lauren, the log at the hotel did reveal a name, though it wasn't Lauren Wilhite. The name on the books was the name of a person known to Lauren and to her boyfriend Mike.
01:04:53
Speaker
Was this who she was coming to meet? Did she stay with this individual? Her family also learned that someone had checked out of the hotel at the end of the book to stay. Was it the individual in the books who checked out? What does that person know? And was that person responsible for whatever happened to Lauren?
01:05:17
Speaker
Michelle even explained to me another possibility that Lauren may have been staying at the hotel under the name of the other individual. You see, Lauren had previously been accused of stealing postal checks from this same man. Could she also have stolen his credit card as well and been using it? Here's Michelle.
01:05:41
Speaker
It wasn't rented by her, but it was rented by someone who she knows and the boyfriend knows and the boyfriend doesn't like and he has threatened Lauren prior, like a week prior to Christmas last year. He had threatened her over some stolen postal checks, I guess, which I don't know if Lauren stole them or not, but it's also that lifestyle, so good possibility.
01:06:07
Speaker
I also don't know then did this person actually rent that room or did my sister steal his credit card information and rent it herself. I got you.
01:06:19
Speaker
And so the room was rented for those three days. She took a selfie outside, so we know she was there, and it was time date stamped, so 29th. So we know she was alive and there on the 29th, but that was the last picture, the last anything we were able to find. So we don't know how long she stayed there, but whoever checked out of the room on the 31st or the 1st, whatever it was. But we don't know who.
01:06:48
Speaker
Unfortunately, that detail too led to even more questions. Was it Lauren who checked out? Was she still alive at that point? If so, where did she go?
01:07:03
Speaker
Some have argued that Lauren may have left of her own volition to escape from the problem still chasing her from her past or to escape from drug dealers. According to one source, Lauren had a drug-related charge from 2018 and more recently had been arrested again for possession of a controlled substance, marijuana. But her family has no more information now, a year later, than they did just days after Lauren disappeared.
01:07:32
Speaker
That is why information from you listeners is so incredibly important. Maybe you hold information that can answer even one of their questions. Here's a message to you from Michelle.
01:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, if anybody has any information, you can remain anonymous. Call the Cook County Sheriff's Office. We just want to know where she is. We're hoping she's safe. We just want to know that she's okay or what happened. There's people who love her and care for her and we just want to know we need some closure.
01:08:08
Speaker
So if you could, please contact the Cook County Sheriff's Department in Illinois or Missing Women of America. They're a nonprofit. You can find them on Facebook. They'll keep you anonymous as well. Thank you. And Lauren, if you're out there listening, Michelle has a message for you as well.
01:08:28
Speaker
We love you and we don't care what you did, what happened. Just reach out, let us know you're okay. We'll help you with whatever we can. We love you and we miss you. 30 years old when she went missing, Lauren stands around five foot six, has brown hair and green eyes, and weighs approximately 120 pounds. She has a heart-shaped outline tattoo under her left eye and a tattoo of a Chinese symbol on her hip.
01:08:54
Speaker
Anyone with information about Lauren Wilhoit's disappearance or her whereabouts is asked to call the Cook County Sheriff's Office at 708-865-4896.
01:09:08
Speaker
To hear other lesser known unsolved cases, like Lauren's, and help do your part in sharing their stories, please check out Coffee and Cases. We release a new episode every Thursday, have over 200 episodes to binge, and can be found on your favorite podcasting app.
01:09:31
Speaker
If you want a unique perspective on crime from the education sector, Teachers Taught Crime brings together two educators discussing both tales from their own classrooms as well as true crime cases with a focus on students and sometimes teachers.
01:09:50
Speaker
I'm Ashley. And I'm Brooke. And you're here with us on a Teachers Who Talk Crime Podcast. So as you see, guys, it's a new year, new binge. So if you have not
01:10:05
Speaker
Binge Teachers Talk Crime. We are a podcast that focus on true crime committed by adolescents, young adults, and clearly in the title, we are teachers. So we like to bring our educational standpoints to some of our cases, if not all of them, and just bring our little insights about what we would do if we had these children in our class, how we would help them, X, Y, and Z, things of that nature. So welcome.
01:10:28
Speaker
Yes. And we are on all streaming platforms as well as YouTube. We release new episodes every Monday. We try to do bonus episodes every full moon and an occasional other bonus content. You never know what you're going to get from us. But definitely every Monday you can see us, YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever you stream your podcast. So sit down, shut up. The murder is about to begin.
01:10:56
Speaker
The case of Isaac Grimes is a chilling story of manipulation, betrayal, and tragic consequences that rocked Palmer High School in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Isaac Grimes was once a shy and introverted teenager. He found an unlikely friendship with a charismatic and popular senior, Simon Su.
01:11:16
Speaker
This instant connection led Grimes into a group Sue ran called the OARA, Operations and Reconnaissance Agents, which is seemingly a place of camaraderie and acceptance for Grimes, who had once struggled to fit in amongst his peers.
01:11:32
Speaker
However, behind the facade of friendship lay a darker reality no one saw coming. Simon Su, the seemingly cool leader, had a sinister agenda. He manipulated Grimes and other members of the group, employing threats, exposure to violence, and a sense of belonging to coerce them into criminal activities.
01:11:52
Speaker
The group began with petty crimes such as robbery, but escalated into something far more sinister no one saw coming. The horrifying climax of what this group was capable of came on January 3, 2001, when the new year had just rang in. It was then that the bodies of Carl and Joanna Dutcher, Tony Dutcher's grandparents, were discovered in their home.
01:12:15
Speaker
Tony Dutcher, their grandson, had once been Isaac Grimes' best friend in their freshman year. He, too, was found murdered in a nearby fort on a hill up from the home. The investigation initially struggled with leads until Grimes was implicated through witness accounts and eventually confessed to his involvement, both to his mom and police. Grimes revealed a twisted scenario where he and another member of the group, John Matheny, were ordered by Simon Su to commit the murders.
01:12:44
Speaker
Grimes himself did not pull the trigger when it came to the Dutcher couple, but he was present during the killing, and he was the one responsible for Tony's death having cut his throat, which led to his death. The motive, you wonder? Well, it was all a sick and twisted loyalty test to secure Grimes' position within the group. It was all orchestrated by Simon Su, a twisted game of Simon Says.
01:13:10
Speaker
who was out of town at the time of the murders, but received a phone call confirming that it had been done. The legal aftermath saw Grimes and Matheny facing charges of first-degree murder where Simon Sue was arrested for conspiracy to commit murder, along with violating organized crime laws in the state of Colorado.
01:13:29
Speaker
While Grimes confessed and cooperated with the authorities, Simon Sue attempted to downplay his role, claiming innocence and denying all allegations of brainwashing or cult-like behavior.
Isaac Grimes and Youth Vulnerability
01:13:40
Speaker
The trial was contentious, with the defense painting a picture of Grimes being manipulated and brainwashed under Sue's control.
01:13:48
Speaker
while the prosecution argued that he had made conscious choices and acted alone and was complicit in the crimes. Grimes received 60 years in prison while Simon Su was given 53. The judge recognized Grimes' cooperation and reduced his sentence to 50 years, but remained steadfast that Grimes did not warrant unlimited mercy given the gravity of his actions.
01:14:12
Speaker
The aftermath of the tragedy extended beyond the courtroom to Jennifer, Tony's mother, who publicly forgave Grimes for his actions, believing he was manipulated and was in fact brainwashed. But she too faced her own struggles dealing with Tony's death, which included imprisonment after a fatal collision left someone dead. And this was due to her alcohol addiction, which came about after Tony had died.
01:14:37
Speaker
The case stands as a harrowing example of how vulnerable individuals seeking acceptance in their adolescent years and friendship can fall prey to manipulation and commit unspeakable acts under the influence of sick individuals. It's a tragic narrative that shattered lives, leaving scars that may never fully heal into a new year people thought would bring new beginnings, not tragedy.
01:15:00
Speaker
And that is the case of Simon Su. The Simon Says Murders. You can listen to all the details of this case as we do go more in depth on our podcast, Teachers Talk Crime. And as always, the bell don't dismiss you. We do. And Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everyone. New Year, new binge. Bye.
01:15:24
Speaker
Finally, we have a podcast that will be your new favorite binge if, like me, you love stories about sketchy people, serial killers, con artists, and everything in between. Oh, and some humor and waffle house stories thrown in for good measure. It's true crime creepers.
01:15:44
Speaker
Welcome to a little mini episode of True Crime Creepers, where we talk about all the real-life creeps, from serial killers to con artists. I'm Kristen, the true crime fanatic who loves to tell these stories. And I'm MoGap, the true crime newbie who hasn't heard any of them. We hope you'll check out True Crime Creepers. We drop new episodes every Thursday everywhere you get your podcasts.
The McDonald's Coffee Lawsuit
01:16:05
Speaker
That being said, that's kind of the mindset that was around at the time when this whole McDonald's thing happened. So most of us have probably heard the story of the woman who was awarded millions of dollars after suing McDonald's for the coffee being too hot after it spilled in her lap. Just at me next time, OK? I feel like I'm just getting scolded, you know? At the MoGap.
01:16:31
Speaker
Oh, and did I mention she was like holding the cup in between her legs while she was driving? Just another dum-dum, filing a frivolous lawsuit, trying to get rich quick off her own stupidity. Yeah, I mean, that's where I'm at right now, so prove me wrong.
01:16:47
Speaker
This woman became the laughingstock of the entire country, but it was way more insidious than even that. I mean, it struck fear in the country, this idea that these people were just out there being stupid, suing whoever they could, and then being rewarded for that. It really scared people. Yes, I can confirm.
01:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, headlines would run about suing people for the most ridiculous thing. It really gave people this idea that it was this huge problem that they were going to be the downfall of our whole system. They're costing businesses millions of dollars, and that's going to trickle down to the consumer as a result. And we're going to end up paying more because some lady was dumb enough to drive around with coffee between her legs and then have the audacity to sue for it being too hot.
01:17:37
Speaker
The McDonald's coffee case became the definition of a frivolous lawsuit, practically synonymous with the term. It was the single most used example of why we need tort reform, which was reform on lawsuits. A tort is a wrong. Somebody has harmed you, you sue for that. I don't want to get a whole lot into tort reform because it's kind of dry tort. It sounds like a snooze fest.
01:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's not great, but this case was used as an example of why we needed to change the system. I mean, hot coffee is one thing, but like, was there a lawsuit when people were finding fingers in chili? Was there a Wendy's finger chili case?
01:18:22
Speaker
It sure is. Oh. That's totally different though, because if somebody actually did find a finger in Wendy's chili, I think everybody would say, yeah, you have the right to sue. The issue with that case was nobody believed that this woman actually found the finger, which then leads to a whole other issue of where this finger come from. That's also a whole nother story. OK, I want that to be the next minisode. And then for the third minisode, I'll tell you about his tooth in the grits.
01:18:49
Speaker
at the waffle, huh? No. No. Uh-uh. Okay, so what are the facts? What actually happened with this case? Well, hold on to your leggings. I'm bringing that back.
01:19:00
Speaker
I will tell you. I'm actually wearing joggers. Hold on to your joggers. Stella Liebeck was 79 years old when this whole thing went down. Aww. I know. She'd been working full time in a department store until about a week before. And on this day, she was riding with her grandson Chris in his 1989 Ford Probe.
01:19:21
Speaker
to take her son to the airport. On the way home from the airport, Chris decided to stop by McDonald's drive through to get breakfast and with breakfast, Stella also got a coffee with cream and sugar. They got all the items and then Chris pulled into a parking spot in the McDonald's parking lot so that Stella could add the cream and sugar into her coffee. It was widely spread
01:19:42
Speaker
that she spilled the coffee while she was driving. She's driving. She has the coffee stuck between her legs, and it spills, and she soothes. That was the common story. But in actuality, they were in a parked car when this happened. This super awesome Ford Probe, I'm sure had many wonderful features. But cup holders were not amongst them.
01:20:04
Speaker
And not only did it have cup holders, did it not have cup holders, the dashboard was slanted. So she did put the coffee between her knees to take the lid off, to put the cream and sugar in. I believe I had heard this before, but I wasn't able to fact check it before this mini sewed. I believe that at the time,
01:20:23
Speaker
The McDonald's lids didn't even have that little flappy thing that they have now. So she had to take off the entire lid to put her cream and sugar in. That does seem like an enhancement in later years. Yes. Yeah. And as she did, the coffee just flipped back and dumped all into her lap, completely saturating the cotton sweat suit that she was wearing. Stella started screaming. Chris jumped out of the car to help, but the coffee had already seared her skin.
01:20:53
Speaker
He took her to the emergency room but the wait there was hours long so they tried a different hospital. It was about 45 minutes since the incident before doctors were able to look at Stella and they saw that she had 16% of her body was burned and 6% of that were third degree burns covering her groin, thighs, genitalia, and butt. Why is it that hot? She was in cotton.
01:21:21
Speaker
Yes, and unfortunately I have seen the pictures and they are, I mean, it's terrible. Third degree burns extend through every layer of skin, like almost out of the tissue they can. And she had them in the worst places.
01:21:38
Speaker
Anyone that has had third degree burns can attest. It is a brutal injury. I couldn't imagine being burned that badly. Did you get them on your arms or your chest or something? Yeah, I had them on my arm. Yeah, I still have the scars from when I landed on a stove. Doctors initially thought that Stella wouldn't even survive these burns. She almost died from coffee from how hot this coffee was. How is that possible?
01:22:05
Speaker
They had to take skin from her outer thigh and graft it onto her inner thigh, permanently disfiguring her.
01:22:12
Speaker
I saw these pictures in the documentary, Hot Coffee, and they show the picture, so watch it at your own risk because it's horrifying. She could not get out of bed for a full three days. She spent seven days in the hospital. Doctors wanted to keep her longer, but Stella knew that she couldn't even afford the medical bills she'd already racked up. So she went home where she spent another three weeks recovering. Oh my god. Her daughter had to take off work to stay with her and take care of her.
01:22:42
Speaker
So McDonald's serves their coffee at a temperature between 180 degrees and 190 degrees. That's 20 to 30 degrees hotter than the coffee served at most other restaurants. For reference, Starbucks coffee is served between 150 to 170 degrees and Dunkin is served between 165 and 180. Why would you not? The audacity for you to rattle off Starbucks and Dunkin and not even
01:23:10
Speaker
give me the Waffle House coffee, which burned me for years. You better look that up right now and tell me. I spilled coffee on me once a day at the Waffle. Oh, God. But I mean, it would like be like, oh, on your hand. But I mean, it wasn't leaving any marks. Always hot, always fresh. 208 degrees is the temperature that our Ninja coffee maker brews coffee at.
01:23:33
Speaker
That's unsafe. No, it has to be really, really hot to brew. Oh, but it's served. It does not have to be that hot to serve. Got it. Do you think the employee would know if I called the Waffle House? Oh my God. No, but you need to anyways.
01:23:52
Speaker
Regardless, we all know coffee is hot. Coffee has to be brewed at extremely hot temperatures to get the flavors out of the coffee. But here's the thing. No one drinks it when it's that hot. People either have to sit there and wait forever for it to cool down or they have to add milk or whatever to cool it off. That's what I do.
01:24:11
Speaker
Studies were done that show that people actually prefer to drink their coffee between 135 degrees and 162 degrees, which shows that coffee does not have to be served at or near brewing temperatures. I think drinking hot stuff is gross. You can come at me all you want, but I'm just not a hot drinks gal.
01:24:33
Speaker
And that opinion is not of the majority. This is America. We are coffee drinkers here, MoGab. So show some respect. All right. I'll try. Also, McDonald's knew their coffee was too hot. In the 10 years before this incident with Stella, they'd had more than 700 people scalded by coffee burns and make complaints against them. Oh, my God. But they had never lowered the temperature of the coffee. Why not?
01:25:00
Speaker
Right, so another myth about this whole case is that Stella, this happened to her, and she just saw dollar signs in her eyes, and she just sued the crap out of McDonald's. But she just wanted them to cover her medical bills, which were about $10,000. She couldn't afford them. She'd had to have skin grafts. She'd stayed in the hospital for seven days. And this is America. She had a lot of medical bills.
01:25:28
Speaker
And that's all that they wanted. They wanted McDonald's, like their insurance to cover the medical bills that Stella's insurance wouldn't cover. She was on Medicaid. And like maybe nugs for life or like french fries, you know? Like could she get some coupons?
01:25:44
Speaker
Perhaps. McDonald's wouldn't even give her nugs for a year. OK. Oh, her daughter, Judy, and her husband, Chuck, wrote a letter to McDonald's. They told them that machine must be too hot. They wanted them to just look at this machine and just fix it if it was broken because they didn't think that it was possible that McDonald's policy was to keep coffee so hot that it could give you cause you to need skin grafts. Then it could literally make a crime.
01:26:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't think anyone would expect third degree burns from a hot cup of coffee. They were just like, this has to be an aberration. And they said, if it wasn't the machine's fault, then they should look at the policy of how hot they keep their coffee and make adjustments because it's obviously dangerous. And also, will you pay for my mother's medical bills that are $10,000? And McDonald said, no, thank you. Will you take this $800 and please go away?
01:26:45
Speaker
So Stella's family was really upset. Yeah, Stella's family was really upset that McDonald's wouldn't give them more than $800. They didn't want millions. They just wanted her medical bills paid. $10,000 is like nothing to McDonald's. And it's devastating to Stella. Where did they get the $800, even?
01:27:05
Speaker
Right. I have no idea. They were just like, what's the minimum amount we can offer to make her go away? So she took them to court. And at the trial, McDonald's defense was that people like coffee the way that they serve it.
01:27:20
Speaker
They sell over a million dollars worth of coffee every day. Why fix what isn't broken? But McDonald's admitted they'd never actually tested if lowering the temperature would affect coffee sales, which was a real bad look on McDonald's because they had been sued before by another burn victim and had promised to do that testing.
01:27:40
Speaker
Well, and these are different locations, yes? So every McDonald's across America has scalding hot coffee and a broken ice cream machine. Those are the two identifying factors. The two things you can count on, yes. Yeah, because it was in their policy.
01:27:57
Speaker
A quality control manager from McDonald's testified and they asked him if he was aware of the 700 complaints between 1983 and 1992 about people being burned by their coffee. The quality control manager on the stand says he's glad the number wasn't higher. He said he was really pleased. I'm really pleased that that number isn't higher, that it's only 700 people we've burned the shit out of.
01:28:25
Speaker
Which I will say, comparatively, that is a big number. But if you were selling millions of dollars worth of coffee every day. Yeah. I mean, just saying. Yeah. Thank God more people didn't spill it on themselves because we'd be up a creek.
01:28:47
Speaker
They knew how dangerously hot their coffee was. They had no plans to lower their temperature or warn their customers that their coffee was near boiling. And the jury was just really shocked at how indifferent they were about it. So when it came time for the jury to make their decision, they had to decide a percentage of fault.
01:29:05
Speaker
Oh, yes. And they decided that, yeah, they decided that Stella was 20% responsible because she had spilled the coffee on herself, but that McDonald's was 80% at fault because they had a very long history of people being injured and they were so dismissive of it. They treated it like it was this trivial thing. Like, oh, did someone get a little owie from the hot coffee?
01:29:29
Speaker
So the story everyone heard was that McDonald's was sued for millions and that she got millions, but she didn't. She sued them for $100,000 in compensatory damages for her pain and suffering and triple punitive damages to send a message to McDonald's that the temperature of their coffee is dangerous. But for the record, again, they could have just paid her $10,000 to cover her medical bills.
01:29:54
Speaker
But again, it goes to show the story that's out there because I immediately thought I feel like a big ass hat in case you're wondering. I mean, I don't know why you would set the coffee on a slanted dash. I mean, I've done way dumb. No, she didn't. The dashboard was slanted so she couldn't set it on the dashboard. So she had it in between her knees. OK. She wasn't just like being an idiot asshole like she was really portrayed to be. And then she literally she spent the rest of her life
01:30:23
Speaker
just being a target of people hating her and being vilified as this person who sued McDonald. She's a sweet little old lady. Plus, not to mention she's 79 years old. So her skin is a lot thinner. It's just awful. I know, but. So the jury ended up awarding her $160,000 in compensatory damages for her pain and suffering and medical bills and all that.
01:30:53
Speaker
and $2.7 million in punitive damages. And this is how they came to that $2.7 million. Everybody was outraged. She gets $2.7 million, which she didn't get that money. They arrived at that figure because that is two days worth of coffee sales. They figured McDonald's should be penalized two days of coffee sales.
01:31:13
Speaker
Which is crazy. Crazy. So the judge decided that two days worth of copy sales was much too high. Even though he also said that McDonald's had engaged in willful wanton and reckless behavior, he still reduced that amount to $480,000, which gave Stella a total of $640,000. And then McDonald's planned to appeal that. So to avoid that, she settled for an amount that I'm sure was less than $640,000.
01:31:43
Speaker
probably more than $800 somewhere in the middle there. She did not get that they appealed it like just I know. I know. And I'm annoyed that it was headlines everywhere that she was awarded two point seven million dollars because that makes everybody think she got that money. She didn't get that money.
Conclusion and Appreciation
01:32:09
Speaker
And there you have it listeners, another fantastic list to kick off your new year, new binge listening. Thanks for tuning in and be sure to follow all of the podcasts you enjoyed so you'll never miss a new episode. Absolutely. Remember to follow them on social media as well. We hope you've enjoyed our collaboration. We want to thank all of the podcasters who participated and you, our listeners, who make shows like ours possible.
01:32:38
Speaker
and who helped the families of victims by sharing these stories, because in that way, you're also providing support. Johanna and I hope that you've found several new podcasts to enjoy in 2024. Until next year, happy binging.