Transcript
Speaker: This past week, my daughter came home having taken the Meyer Briggs personality test at school. She is an INTP, the logician, a category filled with lawyers, scientists, engineers, and architects. I, on the other hand, am an INFJ, the advocate, a category filled mostly with counselors, teachers, writers, and social workers.
Speaker: And INFP is the most creative personality type. And ENTJ is the CEO personality. But as we were exploring the personality types, I was reminded again that we're all talented and intelligent in our own way. Some of us are better at reading the feelings of others. Some of us are calm in the face of danger. Some of us are good at math. Some with words.
Speaker: and some with their hands, and some, like the woman at the center of our case this week, see and appreciate light and color, shadow and textures. She had a unique ability to see beauty and meaning in the faces of strangers, in the sunlight streaming down through the trees, in the busyness of the big city, and in the architecture surrounding her,
Speaker: The world was one big canvas that she felt deeply and saw in all its vivid intricacies. It was a vision she shared with the world through her photography and art until the day she vanished without a trace. This is the case of Chelsea Grim.
Speaker: Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
Speaker: We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
Speaker: Alright Maggie, so our episode this week is a pretty recent case and as such, while there's some information out there, a lot of it can't be verified or it hasn't been corroborated in multiple sources yet because it is so new. But, you know, I say this all the time.
Speaker: And I feel like I'm just repeating myself again and again, but I will say it again. Like a broken record. Yes. I refuse to not cover a case merely because there isn't as much information out there because those families deserve media coverage and attention as much, if not more so than the cases that have loads and loads of details available. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: So when a listener suggested this case to us, I immediately began looking into it. So keep those suggestions coming, Sleuthhounds. You know what cases are local to you that need coverage, so send them our way. Yes, please.
Speaker: So Maggie, 32 -year -old Chelsea Grimm, was from everything I've read, watched, listened to, the kind of person who saw beauty in the ordinary. She felt emotions intensely and she appreciated kindness when she saw it in others and she cared about people and their well -being.
Speaker: She kind of sounds like us a little. I know. She would be our friend. According to the disappeared blog, Chelsea was born on March 22nd, 1991 to Stephen and Janet Grimm and grew up in Stamford, Connecticut. She went to college in New York, which how cool would that be, at Pace University and majored in psychology.
Speaker: After college, she went on to get her master's degree from NYU in social work before moving in 2020 across the country. Wow. Yeah. That's brave, bold, fearless. Yeah. Right during COVID too. So good for her. She moved to Ocean Beach, California. So to San Diego.
Speaker: and she was trying to get work as a licensed associate clinical social worker. But in addition to helping people, Chelsea Grimm, like I said before, was an artist and a photographer, Maggie. She liked to document life in all its forms, and she would take on photography projects for various publications as part of the way that she would support herself.
Speaker: So that's kind of how her, she was actually making money from her talents. Her art. Yeah, that's awesome. Maggie, Chelsea was extremely talented and it is clear from her art that she was just drawn to vibrancy, whether that was in graffiti in a very urban setting to
Speaker: people, characters on the street or nature and the way the sunlight was streaming through in various settings. She captured it all in a way that everything looks new and it makes you pause to really look. So I've included Maggie some of her images that I found on her Instagram page.
Speaker: By looking at these, I can really see what you mean by she sees the beauty in ordinary things. Isn't that a gang board? Yeah. But it looks so cool. It does look really neat. Like you said, you look at it in a different way. Yeah, so extremely talented. And you can just see all the vibrant colors. And you can see her most recent shots, which are the last picture, are mostly the way the sunlight is. Yeah.
Speaker: streaming through different things. Yeah. I saw a post on Instagram today and it was like, um, the person that always talks about how pretty the sky is or we'll take pictures of a pretty sky. That's me. I know me too. I know my daughter and I will send, if we see a rainbow, we'll send pictures to one another and yeah, we'll just look out the window and say how beautiful the sky looks. I know. So we would be friends with Chelsea. Absolutely.
Speaker: And we have reason to believe that around the time of our case this week, so in late September, 2023. So this is why I said recent because we're talking.
Speaker: six months ago. During the birth month of my baby, yeah. Yeah, like five months ago. Yeah, not very long ago. As I'll tell you a little bit more about here in a moment, Chelsea was working on a project, it seems, having to do with fallen or missing soldiers. And it was a project that her parents said sounds like something Chelsea would have been interested in since her
Speaker: maternal grandfather had been in the military. And so they said, yeah, she would have really been drawn to a project that would honor those soldiers who maybe weren't given the gratitude and glory either in their homecoming or in their death. That's sweet. Yeah. Chelsea had in the weeks leading up to our case, though, Maggie had a couple
Speaker: major life changes. She had just gone through a breakup according to her parents that they said had affected her quite a bit and I mean breakups do.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it's it's everything about your life seems like it's changed. Based on text conversations with them, as reported in an interview with Law and Crime Trial Network on October 16th, 2023, her father said that Chelsea had seemed, quote unquote, uneven. Hmm.
Speaker: And when asked what emotions kind of all over the place. Yeah, I think that's what he meant. So the reporter actually said, what do you mean by that word? And he he just said that she had a lot on her mind that she was expressing through her texts having to do with the end of that relationship and about her ex. So I think you're right. I think just her emotions were. If I hear uneven, I think, OK, maybe she's glad in one moment that
Speaker: The relationship is over, but then she gets sad, not knowing how to process. Yeah, that's what I would think too. Apparently he had posted some things. This is according to her parents on social media that had hurt her. And she had also mentioned to them that she was afraid of him.
Speaker: Oh, okay. Here we go. Yeah. But even though the breakup was hard on her, there were other things going on in her life that helped keep her focused on continuing to move forward. And here's a couple other life changes. So she had projects that were keeping her busy, photography projects, but she additionally had just adopted a so positive life change here. Y 'all know I'm a sucker for an animal. I know. But Maggie, she didn't adopt a dog.
Speaker: She didn't adopt a cat. She adopted, no, a bearded dragon, or beardies, as they are affectionately called. And she named - I don't know if I could do that. Yeah. Well, I've just never been a lizard kind of gal, but it is cute. She had named her bearded dragon
Speaker: I saw in different sources, some said ros, some said rosy, some said roxy, but I mean, fairly similar. So something to that extent. But apparently Maggie bearded dragons make great pets because I actually looked it up. And it said that they're easygoing. They like to be around humans. They're very entertaining and they're social animals that are easily trained.
Speaker: I actually had a student that had a bearded dragon and she would show me his picture all the time. And she said the same thing. Like he was trained to do things. He liked to sit like on her. She was obsessed. Yeah. Well, apparently the same was true with Chelsea because
Speaker: She loved this bearded dragon as a companion and she would let it sit on her shoulder and she would just hold him and pet him. I say him, but Roxy sounds female. I have no idea. I did not see a gender for the bearded dragon stated. So, but I did include a picture for you that was taken. He's cute. He is cute.
Speaker: He's just chilling on her purse. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's quite cute. But yeah, he was on a car ride in that picture. So apparently they like car rides too. But Chelsea also had a wedding that she was going to attend back home in Connecticut. So she had been planning on flying back to Connecticut to meet up with her family to attend this wedding.
Speaker: And she had, I think, I don't know if they arranged it, but she had originally planned on flying, obviously from San Diego, where she currently lived back to Connecticut, until she found out that the airline would not let her fly with her bearded dragon. Even if he was like registered as an emotional support animal?
Speaker: I'm pretty sure I saw on like CNN 10 some random animal like a goose or something like that was allowed on an airplane. Mm hmm. Maybe that's what needed to be done. Roxy needed to be an emotional support animal, but that paperwork was not filed, apparently. And so the airline said, nope, it's against our regulations. You cannot take your bearded dragon on board the plane.
Speaker: And so Chelsea said, all right, then I guess I'll just drive. Wow. So she really does love this thing. Yes. Even though she had just recently adopted. So this choice to drive rather than fly obviously was a significant one because to fly across the country on a direct flight would take with only one stop around eight hours.
Speaker: to drive would take more than 40 hours. And that's driving straight. So no potty breaks, no stops for food, no stops for sleeping, nada. 40 hours. I would have been like, can I board my bearded dragon just for a few days? Right. I don't think I could do that. Yeah. To commit to that drive of such a long distance. I mean, obviously, that was a lofty undertaking.
Speaker: And it was actually one that her parents were a little bit concerned about her taking on, as I think any parent would feel, especially since their daughter obviously would be traveling alone. Because, you know, so that would make you a little bit nervous, I feel like. Yeah, I would be scared to do that. Yeah. Here's Chelsea, though. She sets out on her own with just her bearded dragon to keep her company.
Speaker: Taking on the world. That's right. Chelsea and Roxy taking on the world. But Chelsea's father said to reporters from News Nation that, quote, Chelsea was spontaneous. She changed plans a lot, end quote. So I don't think it seemed of the ordinary to them that she would be like, you know what, not going to fly, going to drive.
Speaker: and just being that spontaneous. I don't think that surprised them, but her father did also acknowledge in that same interview quote, the magnitude of this adventure of driving across the country was a lot, even for Chelsea, end quote. Yeah, for sure. Because that, gosh, I mean, I don't get nervous driving. I really don't.
Speaker: Rodney hates driving long distances. It doesn't bother me, but I've also only ever driven like 12 hours. Yeah. Like the farthest I've driven was to like a little bit past St. Louis. I've never done like significantly long. I think that was like nine hours or something. Yeah. I've driven 12, just me and my daughter.
Speaker: Wow. See, I think I'd be scared. Because Anthony was with me the last time. Yeah. I wasn't scared with 12, but I feel like 40. I think I'd be like Chelsea. I think I would just realize, I don't know. That seems like a lot.
Speaker: But I think, though, that's different for us because we're planners. So we would need to be like, okay, I'm driving to here. We're saying the night, then I'm going to drive to here and we're saying the night. Whereas I get the picture, Chelsea is just kind of driving. And when she gets tired, she'll find a hotel and get a room and then keep going. Right. Yeah. And it does sound like initially she was kind of thinking of this 2 ,800 mile road trip.
Speaker: as an adventure because she had told her parents that she was going to document the trip and photos. And I mean, what an exciting opportunity that had to have felt like for her.
Speaker: As someone who is drawn to the artistic myself, I can understand how exhilarating that plan may have seemed, at least from the start. You know, because I'm a dreamer. I got big ideas, but then I start putting them into action and I'm like, man, I have gotten myself in way over my head.
Speaker: Yeah, I have dug this hole too deep. Yeah, that is me to a tease. So I totally get how at the beginning maybe she was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be so exciting. I'm going to document this trip. And then she realizes maybe it wasn't such a good idea. But on September 24th of 2023, when she set out in her white 2019 Ford Focus SUV,
Speaker: She was loaded down with all the clothes that she would need, her purse, her cell phone, her camera, her bearded dragon, of course, and even a sleeping bag along with a tent just in case she got a whim and decided to camp instead of stay at a hotel. Well, thank you. But Maggie, when she made this decision to trek it across country, like I said, she
Speaker: didn't have the plans like you and I would have. You know, you said we're planners. We, we would be like, okay, I'm going to drive this far. I've got this hotel. It's right off the interstate or whatever it is. But yeah, she's more fly by the seat of her pants. Like, you know what? I may camp. I may stay at a hotel. You know what? I'm just going to be prepared either way. But by September 27th, three days into the trip,
Speaker: She had only traveled from San Diego to close to Phoenix, only about five hours away. So she, in three days, only went five hours? Yes. I did not read anywhere why it had taken three days to travel such a short distance.
Speaker: I can only imagine that it was because she had been documenting so much about her journey, maybe. I mean, if you're the kind of person who sees beauty in everything. Oh, like maybe she was stopping a lot. Yeah. I'm wondering if maybe it makes it hard to decide which scene is worthy of documenting and which one isn't. That's the only reason I can come up with because I don't know why else it would take you three days driving.
Speaker: to only go five hours. And I guess my question is, and you may talk about this, but why did she, I guess did she say I'm leaving on the 24th. I have this many days to get to Connecticut. Did she leave extra time? Because I feel like if you have a day in mind, you need to be to Connecticut, then you would be like, Oh, I should probably go more than five hours and three days.
Speaker: Right. Right. Exactly. And of all of the research that I did, of all the articles I read, the police reports, all of that, I don't think I saw anywhere where the date of the wedding was named. So I don't know by when she needed to be in Connecticut.
Speaker: Interesting. To know, yeah, if she had plenty of time, well then who cares if she spent three days going five hours. I'm gonna guess, I mean, I wouldn't think that one would leave super early. So I would mean, I would guess that it would have been on the 29th or the 30th because that was Friday and Saturday. So she's not gonna make it if that's what it is.
Speaker: Well, and she does decide, she does recognize, obviously at this rate, she most definitely isn't going to be able to make it to Connecticut in time for the wedding. So she did call her parents on the 27th and let them know that she didn't think that she could make the rest of the drive by herself, right? So she was basically like, you know what, you're right. This was too big of a task.
Speaker: I don't think I can make the rest of the drive by myself and rather than join you for the wedding, I'm just going to camp in Arizona for a few days. And then she kind of made it sound like, or she came to Arizona for a couple of days that she would return to San Diego. This is all very interesting to me. Like I'm trying to figure out, I guess like how her brain was working. Cause I would have just been like, yeah, I'm not going to make it. I'm going home.
Speaker: Well, I did read that while she hadn't done it in a while, she had gone on these kind of hamping retreats before. I think for a lot of artistic types, that solitude can be very healing in a lot of ways, I think. And so I believe it was in 2008,
Speaker: was really the last time she had done one of these multi -day camping adventures. So it had been quite some time, but she had done it before.
Speaker: She tells them that, yeah, she's going to go camping for a few days, and then it makes it sound like she'll return to San Diego. And Maggie, even though Chelsea was spontaneous, like her dad said, her mom also said that she was an over -sharer. So she was extremely communicative. She was continually in contact with her parents. They pretty much knew where she was.
Speaker: all the time and she did go ahead and let them know when she said that she was gonna go camping for a couple days that where she planned on camping would likely not have good cell service. So it might be a couple of days before they heard from her again. And that makes me nervous because obviously we know something bad's happened to her. We wouldn't be talking about it. And so I'm wondering now like how many days went by before they realized something was wrong.
Speaker: So that was on the 27th that she tells them this. And she did, well, she did have some other contact with people. Let me tell you about that first. She did, while she was in Phoenix, meet up with both her sister and with a friend.
Speaker: and she visited with both of them on the 27th. Okay. And she had actually made plans to meet up with her friend again for lunch the next day on the 28th as well. However, on the 28th, pretty close to the time when they were supposed to meet up again for lunch, Chelsea called her friend and canceled the lunch date. Okay. So we know she talked to someone on the 28th. Correct.
Speaker: So several days pass with Chelsea's parents not hearing from her, which of course they didn't think anything about because she'd already told them that she likely wouldn't have self service for a couple of days. However, when about a week had passed without hearing from Chelsea, because remember, she would reach out to her parents. They pretty much always knew where she was and they were like, okay, her camping trip wouldn't have lasted.
Speaker: this long. They felt something was wrong, so on October 4, 2023, her parents filed a missing person court. Have you ever found yourself wishing you were wealthy enough to have a personal chef, or found yourself thinking about how easy it must be to lose weight with a dietitian fixing all of your meals? If so, we have a solution, and today's your lucky day.
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Speaker: It's been about a week, right out of week. The very next day on October 5th, her SUV was located by some hunters, a woman and her son outside of Ash Fork, Arizona on Forest Service Road 6 and Kaibab National Forest, which is a 1 .6 million acre forest
Speaker: that borders both the north and south rim of the Grand Canyon. Her vehicle is located on this forest service road and it's a dirt road. So these hunters looking in, they observe packed bags, a purse in the front passenger seat, and it looked
Speaker: they made interesting that the hunters noticed it as they told somebody like she's talking or something of when they went into the forest and then they saw it again two days later and so at first they were like okay well you know maybe
Speaker: somebody just parked here and they went, you know, into the forest to do something or whatever. But then when they see it exact same spot on the fifth, two days later, that's when they reported it to law enforcement. And Chelsea's father, Stephen, though, told News Nation of the state of our quote, she seemed to have left the car of her own volition in an organized way. It was locked.
Speaker: She had taken her wallet, her phone, and her sleeping bag, among other things, along with the bearded dragon." End quote. Yeah, so to him, it appeared as though, because even though her purse is in there, she has her wallet. He said she had her phone.
Speaker: and her sleeping bag and the bearded dragon, then he's thinking, okay, well, maybe she, you know, had just chosen the spot to stop for the night to camp and had locked her doors and had said, obviously taken anything that she would need. And so he's thinking, okay, well, maybe she's fine because obviously she took the bearded dragon as she would have done, you know, if she's going to go camp out.
Speaker: But to me, everything would seem normal except the state of her car. And I don't mean what's in the car because obviously her dad commented on that and the doors were locked and it seems very organized. But Maggie, her two tires on the right side of the vehicle were both flat. And the police report like flat.
Speaker: From weather because you know, your tire pressure can get low. No, but I while I didn't read any per statement about what caused the loss of air tires, I did read in a police report that there were, quote, multiple minor scratches
Speaker: and quote, tree branches embedded in the vehicle's hood and front bumper, end quote. So I don't know if she had been off -roading or something. Right, or collided with a tree or something like that, which of course could have, you know, if you've got branches embedded in the gaps of your hood and your front bumper,
Speaker: obviously that could have punctured tires as well, right? And it would make sense then that the two punctured tires would be on the same side. However, I also did not read. I just read the report just says that there are multiple minor scratches. It does not indicate whether
Speaker: the minor scratches and the embedded branches are on the right side of the car where the two punctured tires are. I'm inferring that they are on the same side, but it does not say that. Gotcha. So if not for those details, then I would believe as her parents are initially hoping that Chelsea had just gone out to camp and maybe she had gotten lost.
Speaker: right, or something like that. Their thinking, and I would agree, was that, well, if she were under duress, then she wouldn't have grabbed those items, wouldn't have locked the door of the car, et cetera, right? So if she's like super upset, maybe she's not, right, she's not gonna grab your, you're not gonna grab your sleeping bag and the specific items that she took.
Speaker: And had she been abducted or something directly from the site, then she likely wouldn't have been able to grab the bearded dragon because what abductor would be like, sure, grab your bearded dragon.
Speaker: Yeah, sure. Go ahead. So looking at the items that were missing, her parents, they're like, okay, we know that she would never voluntarily have left the bearded dragon behind. So the fact that the pet is gone as well kind of gave them hope that maybe Chelsea was fine and that she was just out there somewhere. They just needed to find her. Maybe she had gotten lost or turned around or
Speaker: something like she was hurt right but then well we'll get back to the state of the car and my concerns with it but more days pass with no word and now that her car was found so soon after she was reported missing remember it's found the very next day
Speaker: after she's reported missing. It actually allowed searching of the area to be completed pretty quickly, but there were no signs of Chelsea. Interesting. I wonder if somebody moved her car there, which I'm sure we'll talk about it. We will. And her parents, obviously at this point, are forced to consider the alternative, and that is that she met with foul play. And again,
Speaker: Going back to the car, here's what concerns me and doesn't make me think she just nonchalantly went out to camp. If she had gotten two flat tires on this dirt road, I feel like she would have contacted her parents or somebody to let them know that she had
Speaker: two flats and that she had decided to just camp out because obviously, even when she's done camping, she's going to return to a car with two flat tires and she can't go anywhere. Did she have cell phone service on this road? Well, okay. Perhaps not. So in my mind, initially I'm thinking, okay, this doesn't make any sense because if she had two flat tires,
Speaker: Obviously, I feel like she would have called somebody to say, hey, I need to get these tires changed. But literally no one has come forward to say that she contacted them, which is going to be weird. Yeah, I feel her family would. Yeah. When I tell you some details here in a second. But no one has come forward to say that she contacted them.
Speaker: Now, like you said, it could be the case that there is no cell service here. Remember, that's why she told her parents they might not hear from her because cell service is sketchy.
Speaker: Maybe she left the car and she was like, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and take the sleeping bag with me just in case because I don't know how far I'm going to have to walk in order to get cell service. Right. So I mean, maybe she's thinking, okay, what if I have to walk really far to get a signal? Maybe it's already getting late. So I'm just going to take everything I need and then camp out if I need to, or it could be the case.
Speaker: another alternative theory that someone else came along after Chelsea had left her car because I don't know if the tires were punctured from limbs or not. All I know is that they're flat. Obviously it could potentially be a possibility that somebody came by after she left her car and immobilized
Speaker: That's kind of where I went when I first heard that the tires were flat. And again, honestly, we just don't know. However, as part of the investigation, law enforcement in Coconino County, where her car was located, were able to piece together a few clues from the preceding days. So here's what they were able to discover.
Speaker: According to Investigation Discovery, Chelsea was seen at a hotel in Seligman, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, in Seligman, Arizona on September 27th. So remember, this is the same day. She calls her parents and she says, I'm not going to make it to the wedding. I'm just going to camp out a little bit. Right. So same day as that. But at this hotel,
Speaker: Several sources mention that the hotel employee recalled that Chelsea seemed disoriented when they saw her and that she was trying to pay for a hotel room using euros rather than American dollars because she was, quote, trying to stay off the grid. Did Chelsea have
Speaker: like any anxiety disorder or like mental health issues that she may have struggled with. She did struggle with some mental health issues. And we will talk about those briefly here in just a moment. Cause it almost sounds like she's kind of having like a manic episode or something. Right. So the, yeah, the owner of the Aztec motel reported that Chelsea was quote, out of it.
Speaker: and quote having anxiety issues in her words. On September 28, instead of meeting back with that friend for lunch, remember that was her initial plan, the one that she canceled, Chelsea was in Williams, Arizona. Again, not a long drive, only about two and a half hours away from Phoenix.
Speaker: and only about 40 minutes away from Seligman where that motel was. So the next day when she's supposed to meet up with her friend, she cancels, she had really only driven about 40 minutes away, but this town where she was, and I'll tell you how we know she was here in a second, is a town of only about 3 ,000 people,
Speaker: And it's only 60 miles south of the Grand Canyon because it has earned the moniker of Gateway to Grand Canyon National Park because it's the beginning to the Grand Canyon Railway, which is a train that you can still ride today right into the Grand Canyon. So we know she was there because she was caught on a police officer's body cam footage.
Speaker: A call came in concerning suspicious activity near a local war memorial cemetery. Oh, just kind of fitting with her project. Well, this is how we think that that could be her project. We don't for sure know that she had a project, but it is from this interaction that we believe she may have had one.
Speaker: So this officer walks up to where he goes to check it out and on the footage, you can see the officer approach Chelsea's white SUV and you see a teary eyed Chelsea through her rolled down window. So the officer asks Chelsea if she's okay and she assures them that she is.
Speaker: saying, quote, I was just doing a photo shoot of the lost soldiers and I got a little emotional. So I was crying before I got back on the road, end quote. Well, I mean, you know, some people may think that's weird, but as a crier, yeah, I don't think that's weird because I feel like that's something I would do. Yeah, me too. But it is because of that comment
Speaker: that we believe maybe she was working on a project like that. And her mom had said that very much sounds like a project that she would work on. So we don't know for sure, but that's what she told the officer. The officer, I'm assuming, smells marijuana because he also asks her in this footage if she had been smoking.
Speaker: And she admits to having smoked earlier in the day, but it is clear from the video, and I'll let you hear the audio here in just a moment, to me anyway, that she was not impaired. And it seems the officer believed that as well. So he asks her what her plans are. And she says, well, I thought about camping out, but I didn't expect to be here until
Speaker: sunset and the officer says, well, we have some ordinances that prohibit camping. So how about he points out this like loves, travel, stop. Absolutely not. Yeah. Well, that's what he points out to her and
Speaker: Yeah, he says it's one of those big ones for those of you who don't know what a loves is. There are many of them in Kentucky. Maggie and I are very familiar with it. But it's like where big semi trucks might stop for the night to stay. And so this officer says you can go and you can stay over there and quote, no one will bother you. End quote.
Speaker: She then tells the officer, she's like, well, if it's okay with you, I'd like to stay here about maybe 10 or 15 more minutes, kind of collect my emotions. And then that sounds like a great idea. Maybe I'll stay at the loves and try to get some good pictures of the sunrise the next morning. And with that, he leaves her. He talks to her for about nine minutes.
Speaker: So, I mean, you'd think if there were something... Like you would think he would know, you know, he would catch on. Right, exactly. If she were impaired in some way or something. From there, we don't know if Chelsea decided to get back on the road or to stay at the love's filling station. There's never been, from my research, any security camera footage that shows
Speaker: matter of factly, that she went to the filling station. So the next and last, or so we think I'll get to that in a second, sighting that we have of Chelsea doesn't happen until a couple of days later on September 30th. So this interaction with the officer happened on the 28th. And then the next contact that we know of
Speaker: happens on September 30th. And this site was in Ash Fork, Arizona, only a 20 minute drive from Williams, Arizona, where she is spoken to by the officer. I just need to know what she's doing and all this time. I know. And I feel like there has to be someone who knows. Yeah. There's footage somewhere.
Speaker: Or someone saw her. Because what's she eating during this time? You know, because you don't pack food and then it sits in your car for a week and it's still good enough to eat. I mean, so she's going. She would have to get food for the bearded dragon too, right? Well, I mean, it eats insects. Unless she packs like a whole bag. Right. Yeah. I don't know. But I feel like there has to be someone out there who has answers.
Speaker: Here, Chelsea is seen by two woodcutters who noted seeing a woman camping out in a white SUV like Chelsea's. So they stop, they make sure everything is okay because obviously they see this woman here who's just sitting in her SUV and she says, nope, everything is fine. And she made a comment about the sunset.
Speaker: They basically said, though, that there wasn't anything that seemed odd or off about her behavior. And that interaction is the last that we know of.
Speaker: There is a report from a woman named Laura said that she was scouting some wood cutting areas and saw on October 1st. So that would have been after the, the other woodcutters around 2 PM, a white Ford escape in the area where Chelsea's vehicle was later found. So Laura could have seen Chelsea's vehicle and she said that it was unoccupied.
Speaker: So just the same way police find it on the fifth. But Laura said that she had continued driving down the road and about two miles down the road, she saw a peach colored tent, a smoldering unattended fire. And she thought that someone was in the tent because she thought it was weird that here's this campsite, but the vehicle isn't right beside of it.
Speaker: Now, I do not know what color tent she had, but if it were peach, then I'm going to assume that this was indeed Chelsea. But when Laura was back in the area on the 4th or the 5th, now she saw the vehicle, but the tent was gone.
Speaker: So where did it go? So that was on the first, but again, we can't verify because no physical person was actually seeing just a 10th. Hmm. There were other reports, some of which say that they saw a girl that they thought was Chelsea with a man in the vehicle with her. But again, that couldn't be verified. Another, a hunter.
Speaker: said that he saw Chelsea's vehicle in the middle of the road on September 30th and that he had pulled alongside of it and he asked if she needed help to which she responded with an apology for being in the middle of the road and said that she had two flat tires but that she had called someone already and so she didn't need any more help.
Speaker: And is this like the dirt road, that same road? Yes. Okay. So this is why I said it was weird earlier that nobody has come forward to say that she was the person or he was the person that Chelsea called for help. Because remember I said it seems weird to me that if she had two flat tires, that she wouldn't have called somebody, yet not a single person has come forward to say,
Speaker: Yes, I'm the person Chelsea called for help, right? But here we have a person who says, I saw this vehicle and this girl on September 30th. And I asked her if she needed help and she pointed out her two flat tires and said that she had already called somebody. So she didn't need any more help. And this report from this man came in
Speaker: after she's already reported missing. He didn't call the day he saw her. Correct, yes. The man told law enforcement that the woman did seem, quote, out of it, end quote. And that's the second or third time she's been described that way. Correct.
Speaker: So this driver, he actually had a friend with him. They drive away after they stop and she says, nope, I'm fine. I've called somebody. Don't need your help. They drive like 10 or 15 minutes down the road and then they feel bad about leaving this woman unattended in the middle of this dirt road. So they actually turn back around.
Speaker: because they feel so bad and they're like, you know what, we should go back. We should maybe wait with her or something. But when they get back, they find her vehicle locked and the woman gone. But they did see through the window, they saw a purse and a bong in the driver's seat.
Speaker: So essentially the same things that were in her car a couple of days later when the other people notice it. Except, and I know this is a tiny difference and it could just be misremembering, but these two gentlemen who turn around, this is on September 30th, say that they saw her purse in the driver's seat.
Speaker: And yet others who reported looking into the car a couple of days later see the purse in the passenger seat. So I don't know if she came back to her car for something and then something. I do not know. Or it could just be people misremembering details. And I wonder if the Bong appeared in both reports of her vehicle being spotted. I do not know.
Speaker: I do not know. But after searchers and alerts were sent to even surrounding states, Maggie, looking for Chelsea, they produced no new leads. So Chelsea's family actually hired a private investigator to aid in the search, Kelly Townsend. And luckily, in most every interview I've read with Townsend, he has said that local law enforcement
Speaker: was really working very closely with him and that they had been very welcoming. So that is a positive. But there are still questions that Townsend posed even from early on that I haven't seen exact answers to. Namely, as he stated in reports with News Nation, he wondered, quote, how far was the body cam video taken where she talked to police
Speaker: to where her car was found. And he asks, quote, did somebody interact with her? And then they drove down that road, end quote. So they're wondering if somebody maybe followed her here? Like maybe somebody she met in one of the towns? Or we don't know. I did find a
Speaker: concerning Chelsea Grimm on X, which still feels weird to say rather than Twitter, but here we are. It'll always be Twitter. Yes. So somebody posted, it was posted by SF Investigates, which is a private investigator who totes on his webpage
Speaker: helping to find 15 missing persons in 2023 alone. Well, good for him. So I cannot comment on the veracity, so the truthfulness of this post, but I can read you what he posted. So some portions of his post, he said, quote,
Speaker: I was contracted for four days of search efforts. I did nine days and other days pro bono. In those days, I'm proud of what I was able to accomplish. Motel surveillance, viewing loves surveillance. Another business Chelsea visited at 4 .10 p .m. on September 28.
Speaker: and interviewing three employees, inspecting and searching her vehicle at the police impound yard." And he says, also looking at, quote, her Canon camera, which had over 400 pictures from the area she went missing, miles and miles of foot search and over 120 gigs of drone footage. One of the last photos Chelsea took is a selfie
Speaker: time stamped 551 September 30, putting her inside the vehicle and almost dark at the exact spot her car was recovered. Hundreds of text messages were also recovered. The single biggest piece of evidence, in my opinion, is a handwritten note from September 28,
Speaker: that is rather cryptic, but after interviewing an employee at a business and a few of Chelsea's friends, I was able to figure out the meaning and significance. It's not a suicide note. This was all passed along to the lead investigators, and I hope they will follow up on it." End quote. So the cryptic note was one Chelsea wrote? Yes, but was not a suicide note, he says.
Speaker: He ends by saying that he has, quote, attached one photo proving she was in her car at 5 .51 p .m. Pacific Standard Time on September 30th, end quote. And this image is posted for you below, Maggie. He noted elsewhere in the post that there were other images that showed Chelsea's face in the frame, so you knew it was her, but said that he didn't attach any of those images out of respect for her privacy.
Speaker: Now, here's why I kept saying, I don't know the veracity of this claim. I am not in any way trying to discount SF Investigates because I do not know them. I do not know their work. I can't comment on that. But I also did not read anywhere, including in police reports,
Speaker: there was love's surveillance that were at least there wasn't surveillance that was looking in the direction where Chelsea would have been. So he could have viewed surveillance but not in the area she was in. Right. I also
Speaker: And again, I don't want to cast shade or bring doubt on this investigator, but I don't know how likely local law enforcement would be to let an outside investigator not hired by the family come in and view all of these things. And can you just do that? Can you be like, hey, I'm working? Yeah, I don't know. He also says that he was paid for four days, but I don't know paid by whom.
Speaker: I don't know, because from my understanding this SF is not the family hired investigator. At least I didn't see that name connected with it. But there is a photo that was attached to that post on Twitter. And you can see it there. You know, again, I don't know, maybe this is a real
Speaker: photo of her vehicle, but I don't think it'd be very hard to recreate this image, you know what I mean? Like to make it appear that it's her. But again, I don't want to discredit this guy because maybe it is her. I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point. Yeah, exactly. And a couple of sources I was able to locate also stated that, and this is just side note before we get into the theories, Chelsea's sister, Sarah, actually warned people on Facebook
Speaker: that Chelsea's ex -boyfriend, remember the one that she had just broken up with, that after Chelsea was declared missing, had set up a phony GoFundMe to try to financially benefit from her disappearance. That GoFundMe read, in part, quote, I am Phillip, Chelsea Grimm's fiance,
Speaker: We have lived together for eight months and have known each other for years. I am extremely close and she is my other half." The GoFundMe goes on to state that he has been looking for Chelsea and handing out flyers and how expensive the search is, claiming to have spent thousands of dollars in the search efforts and trying to get donations on this GoFundMe of $30 ,000.
Speaker: You should see my face right now. Yeah. But at the same time, so that was the warning that her sister put out was that it was a phony page. It was not run by the family. That's what the GoFundMe post said. But I will also tell you that according to CBS 8, her ex -boyfriend has been ruled out as a suspect.
Speaker: Okay, her parents have indicated you asked about this a minute ago in interviews that Chelsea had
Speaker: previously struggled with her mental health. But they have not specified in what way. I saw some sources that mentioned anxiety. I saw some that mentioned PTSD. She had an ex -boyfriend who she had lost due to an overdose. And I know she had a very hard time dealing with that. But they did indicate, her parents did, that to them,
Speaker: the struggles that she had with her mental health, they weren't significant enough in their opinion, that they believe that Chelsea had even anything like a mental break around the time of her disappearance. But I mean, a lot of people who bring it up, who bring up this theory, they do so because
Speaker: You called it. How many different people said that she seemed, quote unquote, out of it? There was something going on. I mean, you don't walk into a hotel and you try to pay in euros instead of dollars, especially if you're trying to kind of fly under the radar. Because that's something that's going to be something you remember. Exactly.
Speaker: I will say, again, if people are noticing that she's dealing with trauma or something, then we do have to at least think about this theory. They also bring up how upset she was because of this recent breakup as well. And they also mention, and I saw this in a police report, I was not able, again,
Speaker: This was online, this police report. It was 56 pages of police documentation that I read. It looked official, I'm assuming right now that it was, but in it, it said that law enforcement had spoken with Chelsea's friend that she had lunch with on the 27th. She was supposed to have lunch with again on the 28th.
Speaker: And then that friend mentioned to law enforcement that when she saw Chelsea on the 27th, that she quote, seemed paranoid, saying she was escaping a domestic dispute.
Speaker: and that her ex -boyfriend could track her using her phone GPS. Okay. And this may be like, everybody knows this and Maggie is just behind the times, but unless you share your location with someone, can people just track random cell phones? I don't know. I don't know. Like if there's a way, if you're on the same plan, if there's like some sort of like fake
Speaker: I don't know. I'm sure that there are other ways other than you telling somebody. People can also tell where you are through Snapchat, through different other applications. Her friend, again in this report, told police that she thought Chelsea was quote,
Speaker: just processing trauma. With this theory, the big clue that to me says that her intent were not to harm herself is that she took her bearded dragon with her because, you know, she loves animals. She wouldn't even fly to Connecticut because it would mean leaving her pet behind. Well, she's definitely not going to go out just days later and
Speaker: you know, to harm herself and therefore leave her pet behind alone for good. Now, it is possible, obviously, that she did have a mental break and maybe she were disoriented, but I feel like even though there were some people who said
Speaker: that she did seem quote out of it, like the ones who stopped when she's in the middle of the road and she says, no, I've called somebody, somebody's coming. The woodcutters, who were the last ones that we know of who spoke with Chelsea, didn't mention any odd behavior or disorientation. And I'm with you. I don't think that she would have intentionally harmed herself.
Speaker: because I just feel like, you know, she had the plans to go to Connecticut and I think this will be a very elaborate plan if that was the whole purpose of this. And I just don't get that vibe. Now maybe she got hurt in this, like on her camping adventure and she couldn't get help, maybe something like that. I don't know, but I don't know that I think it's number one.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that as theory number two is that Chelsea got lost in the forest or she had some sort of an accident. She got hurt.
Speaker: Obviously, this theory is very possible. I mean, based on the final photos from online, again, if we believe this private investigator who posted on Twitter, that was just before sunset. So it could be possible that Chelsea took her camping equipment with the intent to camp somewhere for the night, thus explaining why her car was locked up, why there wasn't a sign
Speaker: any sort of struggle at her car and then maybe she got lost after darkness fell or she hurt herself somehow and couldn't get help, right? But my problem with this though is there were ground searches and that same private investigator said there was drone footage, right? Yeah. So I feel like that was a pretty thorough investigation to kind of rule out this theory and
Speaker: Didn't the police officer say there were camping regulations and she couldn't camp there? Well, that was near that cemetery. So this is in a different area. I don't know how much ground was covered in those ground searches, but I mean, I would think
Speaker: they would cover at least more ground than a single person could walk. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. In the number of days that she was missing. And my big question is this, if she left of her own volition, right, if she's gonna go out camping and, you know, that's what happened when she got lost or whatever, why didn't she take her camera?
Speaker: Right, because it wasn't part of this whole camping adventure to take pictures and kind of document this whole experience. Yeah. So the camera being left behind, it honestly throws me off of a lot of the theories because yeah, I don't understand that choice if she loved art as we know she did. And like you said, her whole purpose is to document this entire trip and everything around her.
Speaker: most of her last photos that I showed you on her Instagram were of the sun kind of streaming down through the trees. Why did she take all of these photos of herself sitting in the car? But if she actually did go camping, she didn't take her camera with her to get pictures of that. Right. So I'm not convinced that she even went
Speaker: necessarily of her own volition camping because she left her camera. So theory number three is that Chelsea met with foul play. So obviously just as getting lost is easily possible, so too it is easily possible that somebody followed her to the spot, that somebody came upon her, right? I mean she had two flat tires. Did she
Speaker: get picked up by somebody. Maybe she said, oh no, I've got a friend coming to those two guys because maybe for some reason she just didn't feel comfortable with them. But then somebody else comes along and she hitches a ride.
Speaker: And obviously that could have been somebody she knew. I mean, obviously if she actually did call somebody, there's a reason that person hasn't come forward and said, Hey, I'm the person she called. So something could have happened or it could have been a stranger who intended her harm. Obviously I love to play devil's advocate with everything. So to play devil's advocate with this theory.
Speaker: The search and rescue, which started the day after her car was discovered, there were helicopters, there were dogs, and the like, found nothing. And even 10 days into the search for Chelsea Grim, police announced that while it was a possibility that there was foul play, they did not believe foul play was involved. So there's literally no sign
Speaker: site of where her car was abandoned that there was foul play. Yeah I don't know like how you can rule that out though just because there's not sufficient evidence. Right because there's not evidence either way. Right. Yeah I'm with you on that one. Or there's theory number four that Chelsea is still out there and is living somewhere off the grid.
Speaker: Her father told Michael Chen of 10 News, quote, she was on a road. It's possible she got a ride out of there. That gives us some hope. The fact that she's experienced obviously gives us some hope, end quote, and what he's referring to there, Maggie.
Speaker: is that Chelsea was an experienced camper, like I told you before. Even Coconino Sheriff's Office spokesperson, John Paxton, told Williams News on October 17th, 2023. So again, about 12 days after her vehicle is discovered, quote, I think our strongest theory right now is that she tried to walk out or she got into a vehicle with somebody.
Speaker: If you've been in that area, you know you can't go a mile without coming across a road. So it doesn't seem like she would wander out in the wilderness and never find a road. And there are hunters all over the place. And with this theory that she's still out there somewhere, obviously that's the hope of her parents. So they're thinking, okay, well,
Speaker: Was it some sort of indication that she was giving at that hotel in Seligman of her true intent? Cause she said she was trying to get off the grid and kind of get away. And she told her friend that she was escaping a domestic situation. Yeah. So could that explain the choice to take her camping equipment and her pay, but obviously never again log onto social media or use
Speaker: her credit card because she's just trying to escape. If they're tracking her phone, though, she wouldn't necessarily have to open up social media for someone to know where she's at. I mean, that's true. And again, to present the opposing viewpoint,
Speaker: Why would you take, if you're trying to live off the grid and not be recognized, why would you take an easily recognizable bearded dragon pet with you if you're trying to quote unquote disappear? Because people would recognize you. And again, why not take the camera? Because this is, it's a camera, right? And this is some deep seated passion that she has.
Speaker: I just, if you're escaping your life I don't know if you necessarily stop everything that you're passionate about.
Speaker: So Maggie, given the information, what are you inclined to believe? Well, I don't know if she would try to like kind of fall off the grid and just do her own thing because I feel like she was so close with her parents. I don't know. Could she cut ties like that? If she's telling them where she's at every single day, could she just no longer contact them? I don't. I'm almost wondering if maybe she hitchhiked
Speaker: and they dropped her off at another camping location and then she had like a camping accident you know she
Speaker: I don't know fell down a ravine or twisted her ankle and couldn't walk to get help and had no cell phone service. Like I'm wondering if it's something like that. And she had intended to come back to the car. But I guess the thing I keep coming back to is the shape that her car is found in. And I want to know how it got that way. Because I think then we would have more answers. But right now I just don't really know.
Speaker: And I would have hoped that someone would have seen an accident happening to know how her guard got that way. But in my mind, even if a friend had come to pick her up, I feel like she would have taken her camera and again, documented. Because she even used that word that she was going to document
Speaker: her trip. And so the fact that her camera is still in the car makes me wonder if she met with foul play and somebody tried to make it look like she left of her own free will. Months later, Chelsea's parents still hold out hope that their daughter will be found. The private investigator, from my understanding, is still seeking new leads in the case.
Speaker: her family just want their daughter, but they want to know she's okay. If Chelsea is out there, her parents hope that she wouldn't be difficult to identify. First, she has a distinctive black ink vine tattoo that wraps around her left arm and wrist and a red Sanskrit tattoo below
Speaker: Additionally, her parents hoped that she might still have her bearded dragon with her. Chelsea's mother, Janet Grimm, told News Nation, quote, The chances of people recognizing Chelsea and sort of connecting the dots, if they see somebody with a bearded dragon, they're going to take an extra look at that person.
Speaker: that vivid image of their daughter that her parents want people to remember, not just on the outside, as I'll describe to you in just a moment, but also on the inside. Her mother told Colin Kalbacher of law and crime, quote, Chelsea is an incredibly vivacious and talented young lady, and she's got a heart of gold. As all of this has unrolled, we
Speaker: It's hard to look at the situation in the circumstances and you need to make sure that the vision of the real person is part of the picture and she was a treasure. Her father adds in that same article quote, we love you Chelsea. We can't wait to see you again.
Speaker: If you have seen someone fitting Chelsea Grimm's description, five foot eight inches tall with blonde or strawberry blonde hair at the time of her disappearance, and weighing between 115 and 135 pounds, paying particular attention to her tattoos, or if you have information that could aid in her case by filling in the timeline, if you saw her in any detail
Speaker: that can help her family, please contact Coconino County Sheriff's Office at 928 -774 -4523.
Speaker: Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail .com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
Speaker: Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
