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141 Pernille Hughes | Rom-Com Author
438 Plays2 years ago
Rom-com writer, Pernille Hughes is on the podcast this week. Tune in to hear all about her writing process, her latest book 'Ten Years', what it’s like to write for genre and the story of how her debut novel was re-released with a different title.
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Transcript
Introduction to Romantic Comedies
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question.
00:00:02
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:03
Speaker
Because the writing is sort of everything, right?
00:00:05
Speaker
You can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this.
00:00:11
Speaker
So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
On today's episode, I'm joined by a romantic comedy author.
00:00:22
Speaker
It's Penilla Hughes.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hi, Penilla.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to the show.
00:00:25
Speaker
Thank you.
00:00:25
Speaker
And thank you for having me.
00:00:27
Speaker
Thanks for joining me.
Pernilla Hughes on Writing 'Kissing Books'
00:00:29
Speaker
Let's talk about rom-coms.
00:00:30
Speaker
You have three published novels, all rom-coms.
00:00:34
Speaker
Are rom-coms also your favourite thing to read?
00:00:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think they really are.
00:00:39
Speaker
I am a total romantic.
00:00:42
Speaker
and just want to see happiness and feel good things in everything.
00:00:46
Speaker
And also I just like laughter and comedy.
00:00:49
Speaker
Uh, I just think love and laughter go hand in hand.
00:00:52
Speaker
So that's what I write with my kissing books.
00:00:54
Speaker
I think because I think when I was a teen, I watched a lot of, um, Hollywood screwball comedies and so that, you know, the Doris Day and, and, um,
00:01:03
Speaker
Catherine Hepburn and those kind and where it was, they were just out and out love stories.
00:01:08
Speaker
And then there was humour in there as well.
00:01:11
Speaker
So yeah, that just wrapped me up for life, I think.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yes.
00:01:16
Speaker
So, so when it came to write, like writing rom-coms was just like a very natural thing for you to do?
Challenges of Writing Rom-Coms
00:01:20
Speaker
I don't think I can write straight.
00:01:22
Speaker
I've tried to write kind of worthy, straight stuff and it just always veers into comedy, at which point it's
00:01:29
Speaker
generally inappropriate.
00:01:30
Speaker
So I just, in the end, decided that actually this was my bag and just embraced it.
00:01:36
Speaker
Well, it's funny because I think things like rom-coms, and this is, I think, is this, you can see this especially in films where it's so rare to see a rom-com nominated for awards and things like that.
00:01:48
Speaker
But like, I think it also happens with books as well, where the story archetype itself is
00:01:55
Speaker
I think is often underestimated as something that might be easier or simpler to write because there is kind of a formula to it.
00:02:05
Speaker
And you sort of, most of the time you do know how it's going to end.
00:02:09
Speaker
And I, but I just don't think that's true at all.
00:02:11
Speaker
I think it's very difficult to, to, to write things like romantic comedies where you have to maintain the romance, maintain the comedy.
00:02:20
Speaker
What do you think about that?
00:02:22
Speaker
I agree.
00:02:22
Speaker
I mean, it's,
00:02:24
Speaker
I think when people read a rom-com, they say, oh, that was an easy read.
00:02:26
Speaker
Well, I think the skill of the author is to have made it an easy read.
00:02:30
Speaker
And if they really look at it, then there would generally be, yes, there's a love story and a romance that contractually with the reader will be a happy ever after or a happy for now with hope as well.
00:02:44
Speaker
And if,
00:02:46
Speaker
I was to write a book that didn't have one of those two with hope, then I would get slaughtered in my reviews because otherwise it's, I mean, you can have a love story that's sad, but then it's not a romance.
00:02:58
Speaker
And equally so, you know, when I get a review that says, oh, predictable, it's like, no, no, you picked up a romance, you were expecting a happy end.
00:03:06
Speaker
And that is the deal.
00:03:07
Speaker
What happens in between is the story.
00:03:09
Speaker
And that's where I don't believe you could have predicted necessarily all those things that
00:03:13
Speaker
I brought to the story and all my fellow romance writers.
00:03:18
Speaker
But I don't think it's any more predictable to anyone who picks up, say, a crime novel because the deal there is that the perpetrators are brought to book by the end.
00:03:29
Speaker
And if it was just left that they got away and, you know, ha-ha, then I think the reader would say, hang on a sec, justice was not served.
00:03:37
Speaker
This was not a satisfactory ending.
Romance as a Universal Subplot
00:03:40
Speaker
so I think the romance thing people do see as fluffy and, uh, but actually if you met the vast majority nowadays that get published have underlying themes, uh, stories, messages, just as other more, and I speechy marks worthy, uh, books, uh, have.
00:04:01
Speaker
And that is the skill of the writer as well, to be able to introduce those in a way that still, uh, are pacey and funny and, um,
00:04:10
Speaker
acknowledge the things that rom-com readers expect from the genre.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
I mean, when you look at almost every book, and the same with films as well, unless it's a children's thing, sort of middle grade and under, almost every story has, even as a B-plot or a C-plot, a romance kind of underlying or implication of romance within it.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yes, because we like that.
00:04:42
Speaker
I think that is the, I think it's like the way that people like spring, you know, the birds and the bees and those things, it's a new cycle of life.
00:04:49
Speaker
It's a hopeful time.
00:04:53
Speaker
And I think there's that element as well within those kind of films that we, even if there's just like in the C plot, there's something going on.
00:05:00
Speaker
It gives you the subconscious knowledge that life is going to carry on here.
00:05:05
Speaker
There'll be other things, new things are happening.
00:05:08
Speaker
Even if the story ends, there's new little relationships or sparks or things continue on in a hopeful way.
00:05:15
Speaker
And that's kind of the hope.
00:05:16
Speaker
that I was kind of would like to include in the, in the definition of romance being happy for now, just a happy after, because I mean, just the one that speaks to my hunger games, they do get together at the end.
00:05:29
Speaker
I think that's been in a few years on to not have, but yeah,
00:05:32
Speaker
That's an A to B via Z though, right?
00:05:35
Speaker
Yes.
00:05:35
Speaker
This is a love triangle.
00:05:36
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:05:37
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:05:37
Speaker
But the couple that at the end, she is so broken.
00:05:40
Speaker
She is so broken at the end.
00:05:42
Speaker
And I'm looking at that thinking, I don't see any hope there.
00:05:45
Speaker
You know, really it's not, it's a happy ending that's not particularly happy.
00:05:50
Speaker
Um, so I think from that stance, yes, just, even if there's just a hint of something, uh, between some characters, it does lead the reader to believe that there's story beyond the story.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:03
Speaker
And also romance is so, it's almost universally relatable.
00:06:07
Speaker
You know, it's something that often grounds a character.
00:06:09
Speaker
So hunger games is a great example because it's like a Katniss, isn't just this machine that, you know, is kind of fighting the good fight and doing all that stuff.
00:06:20
Speaker
Sometimes you have these moments of romance where you as a human being are sort of like, oh, she also has feelings and emotions beyond overthrowing the world and things like that.
00:06:31
Speaker
She's like me in that way.
00:06:33
Speaker
I can relate to that.
00:06:33
Speaker
Yes, because you look at her and you think, oh, you are invincible and I would never be brave enough or strong enough.
00:06:38
Speaker
But actually there's still, at the end of the day, there's an element of, we all just want to be desired.
00:06:44
Speaker
I think the very ground level, everybody wants
00:06:48
Speaker
to be desired in some way, I think, which I think is something that I think is, is a true thing.
Keeping Rom-Coms Fresh
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:54
Speaker
So with all that in mind, then how do you keep kind of each story feeling new and fresh whilst maintaining the sort of the promise of the genre and the sort of staples that come with that?
00:07:10
Speaker
Um, I think because my three books are all
00:07:13
Speaker
They're different, but they're similar in the first two books.
00:07:16
Speaker
One's called Punch Drunk Love and one is called Probably the Best Kiss in the World.
00:07:20
Speaker
That's about, and actually 10 years as well.
00:07:24
Speaker
They're all women, young modern women who just are trying really hard and they're very capable, but they just haven't caught their brakes.
00:07:32
Speaker
So that's maybe my kind of angle on things.
00:07:36
Speaker
But also, you know, I try to bring fresh and modern because I'm maybe writing
00:07:44
Speaker
premises that aren't or you know kind of scenarios that aren't necessarily ones that I've seen before so my first book set in a boxing gym which Tiff She Inherits when I sent that was my debut and so I'd sent that out and I was getting responses like we like this this is fresh but would you be able to set it in a hotel because that was like more of a kind of
00:08:09
Speaker
Yes, exactly that.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:12
Speaker
Uh, and the answer to that was no, sorry, no, it's definitely a retro boxing gym.
00:08:16
Speaker
And also the second book, well that beer making is a big theme in that.
00:08:20
Speaker
And, and it's like, that's not necessarily something I've seen elsewhere.
00:08:24
Speaker
Uh, so it's sometimes it's women in quirky jobs.
00:08:27
Speaker
And the quirk and the freshness there comes in that it's hopefully not something that's been done too much before.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:34
Speaker
Like a, like a bakery or something.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:37
Speaker
Or a cafe or yes.
00:08:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:39
Speaker
Not to say anything against those books.
00:08:41
Speaker
I love those too.
00:08:42
Speaker
It's just not my place to, to, to write those.
00:08:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:46
Speaker
So, so for you, it's, it's a matter of like, okay, what's, let's see what there is.
00:08:50
Speaker
You know, you obviously read a lot in the genre and, you know, you're writing your own thing and you're like, okay, what's, what's the kind of completely new setting that no one's really messed around with?
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:00
Speaker
And, and, you know, sometimes it's not generally something that I, uh, have had so much experience of, but then I'll hopefully be able to go out and do some research on it and then make it seem, uh, realistic or plausible.
00:09:11
Speaker
At least I'm really quite keen to have something to be vaguely plausible, even if it is in, in,
00:09:16
Speaker
rom-com, which often people think is not plausible.
00:09:20
Speaker
So for 10 years, the list there is that they're completing a bucket list, these two characters, for a lost loved one, even though they hate each other.
00:09:30
Speaker
And there, the engine of it is this bucket list.
00:09:32
Speaker
So I was picking tasks they had to do that were not outrageously expensive, could be done from the UK, but then would still be able to bring humour to
00:09:45
Speaker
the story because it's in these false proximity moments that the bickering really happens and the conflict comes up.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, staples of that trope, I would say.
00:09:56
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:09:58
Speaker
So it sounds like, so you, you know, you kind of try and find a new setting, you go and do a bit of research about that and things like that.
00:10:05
Speaker
Do you plan all of these stories out before you start writing them?
00:10:09
Speaker
Oh, I wish.
00:10:11
Speaker
I so wish.
00:10:11
Speaker
I would love to be a planner.
00:10:15
Speaker
I highly value efficiency.
00:10:16
Speaker
And I think being a planner would make writing so much more efficient.
00:10:21
Speaker
But I think I have to accept that I am probably more of a pantser.
00:10:25
Speaker
And so I always kind of start at the beginning, right, do a plan this time, do a plan.
00:10:31
Speaker
And, and I sit staring at this plan and it just doesn't really come.
00:10:34
Speaker
So in the end I have to go, okay, you have to launch now because you can't waste too much time now.
00:10:39
Speaker
And then I kind of throw myself into it and then very quickly start flailing.
00:10:43
Speaker
And so maybe really I am kind of maybe a bit of a hybrid.
00:10:46
Speaker
So I have to start knowing roughly where it's going to go.
00:10:50
Speaker
And with 10 years, what I did was I,
00:10:53
Speaker
I wrote, because it was something that I kind of worked with my editor on, and I wrote the first chapter, the middle chapter, and the last chapter.
00:11:02
Speaker
So I then sent it to her and said, look, is this the tone you want?
00:11:07
Speaker
And do you think this will carry?
00:11:11
Speaker
And it did, thankfully.
00:11:13
Speaker
But it just meant that I already had the beginning, the middle, and the end to kind of, as those kind of tent posts to work towards.
00:11:20
Speaker
And I think that probably gave me the
00:11:23
Speaker
because much as I want to be a planner, I have a feeling that if I wrote a very, very staunch plan, I would then not want to write the story because I already knew what happened.
00:11:33
Speaker
And so really the surprise elements had gone.
00:11:35
Speaker
So I think I have to find some way of kind of finding it that there's a structure, but there's a looseness to it so that I can amuse myself, uh,
00:11:44
Speaker
in my
Character Development in Romance
00:11:45
Speaker
sad little head.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:46
Speaker
Just as I go.
00:11:48
Speaker
That's really interesting actually, as a way of doing it, because I've often the thing that I hear from, um, people who aren't, who don't plan is cause like you say, like there's a certain element of joy to writing it and discovering it as you go.
00:12:03
Speaker
So it's really interesting that you, especially as like a sort of pitch to your editor to be like, okay, so I've written the first chapter, the middle chapter, the end chapter.
00:12:10
Speaker
Obviously there was a through light, like you've basically said, okay, so we're going to start here, go here and go here.
00:12:14
Speaker
Like there is a beginning, middle, end, like you said.
00:12:17
Speaker
You have a very vague semblance of story, but between those points you're allowed to go and discover whatever crazy adventures you want.
00:12:25
Speaker
That's a really cool way of doing it.
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, it worked on this, on this last book.
00:12:29
Speaker
Also because of the nature of it, the structure of the story is, it's set over many years and they've been asked to do these tasks.
00:12:36
Speaker
So I each
00:12:38
Speaker
I break up the book by year.
00:12:41
Speaker
And then within each year, there's kind of a catch up on what's happened to each character because they alternate with what's happened in the last year.
00:12:50
Speaker
And then the actual, the second chapter is then the task where they come together and we see what happens there.
00:12:56
Speaker
And so because I had to like kind of lay that out a bit because I also had to then look at
00:13:03
Speaker
because I was taking them from a point where they can barely tolerate each other to a point where they're in love.
00:13:09
Speaker
It really, I really had to look quite carefully at how far have we come, what's changed in them, and then what's changed in their relationship to each other.
00:13:18
Speaker
And so that did have to have some kind of plotting.
00:13:21
Speaker
So the, the, I'd say the action was free to come in my head as I wrote, but I did have more of a framework of,
00:13:32
Speaker
so-and-so needs to be open to this, but still close to that.
00:13:35
Speaker
And because that was just the nature of something, which is spanning 10 years, really, I think there's, um, cause I wanted it to feel plausible and that they could really have made this leap from there to there.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:51
Speaker
It's one of those planning staples where, whereas to say like per chapter, you say, okay, here's three things that this chapter needs to accomplish.
00:14:00
Speaker
Oh, I wasn't that detailed.
00:14:02
Speaker
Wasn't that detailed.
00:14:03
Speaker
I'm making it more detailed in my head.
00:14:06
Speaker
But you, but you, you basically said, okay, this is the year we're on.
00:14:10
Speaker
This character needs to be at this point and this character needs to be at this point.
00:14:13
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think, um, because really they're each changing at different paces and in different ways.
00:14:21
Speaker
And sometimes that would have to grate with each other.
00:14:24
Speaker
And sometimes I needed it to actually be in some kind of a synchronization to each other.
00:14:30
Speaker
So that we could at various times see hints of them being together and then it falling flat on its face or other times they're rubbing each other the wrong way, actually pushed the other one on.
00:14:42
Speaker
So there was those elements as well.
00:14:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:45
Speaker
You're hitting all the, all the tropes there.
00:14:47
Speaker
And the tropes is really interesting topic.
The Role of Tropes in Romance
00:14:50
Speaker
I think it's become such a sort of big part of the genre in part, thanks to the sort of explosion of book talk and TikTok, I think.
00:14:58
Speaker
And they've very much become part of the marketing.
00:15:02
Speaker
I believe they're marketing.
00:15:03
Speaker
Definitely.
00:15:04
Speaker
Especially within romance as a genre.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:07
Speaker
and I saw online that the 10 years was being promoted with the kind of like, I think you've got, uh, it's haters to lovers, slow burn, forced proximity.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yes.
00:15:17
Speaker
When you're writing, obviously, you know, we've kind of figured out how you, how you kind of map these things out, but going into it,
00:15:27
Speaker
Do you know which tropes you want to use?
00:15:30
Speaker
Have you picked out the tropes that you want to hit?
00:15:32
Speaker
No, I haven't come to it that I recall in ever thinking, oh, I'm going to write a, I don't know, a fake dating book.
00:15:42
Speaker
But no, I think, I think we, we knew 10 years that it was an enemies.
00:15:46
Speaker
Well, it was then, you know, an enemies to lovers, but I have been since corrected that it's a haters to lovers because they're not competing for anything.
00:15:52
Speaker
But I, so other than that, because yes, that was the, the hook of it that they, they, they, they dislike each other.
00:16:00
Speaker
Other than that,
00:16:02
Speaker
everything else before that was up to grab was up for grabs.
00:16:05
Speaker
And originally it was like, we didn't quite, I didn't quite know how they were, they just had to come together every year.
00:16:11
Speaker
And it was very much, well, how do I make that happen without it being really boring?
00:16:16
Speaker
And so that's where the bucket list came in.
00:16:19
Speaker
And so that then became a Fox, a forced proximity.
00:16:23
Speaker
I mean, it was slow burn, I think because, well, it was always going to be a slow burn because it was going to span all these years.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:48
Speaker
you know, the wham up front, I think certainly for a more, for a UK audience that the slower burn kind of feels more realistic.
00:16:57
Speaker
It's what we generally know more than, than Insta love, but that now three books in, and I'm looking at a fourth book, I'm trying to think, well, actually maybe do embrace the tropes, which ones are,
00:17:12
Speaker
do I really love and which ones do I want to immerse myself in and which ones maybe sit in juxtaposition to what I've written before.
00:17:18
Speaker
So I was listening to a podcast with Emily Henry on who wrote Happy Place, which I love.
00:17:26
Speaker
And she was saying that when she looks back, she sees that each book is kind of in reaction to the last book.
00:17:34
Speaker
And I definitely see something in that because my first book, there's a, someone gets dumped right at the beginning.
00:17:43
Speaker
Well, in my second book, someone's proposed to right at the beginning.
00:17:46
Speaker
And so it's almost like you're trying to be different from the book before.
00:17:49
Speaker
And by doing that, you pick opposing kind of tropes.
00:17:53
Speaker
And whereas tropes to me have always been a marketing tool, a shorthand for what you're getting.
00:17:58
Speaker
And I know that there's certain tropes that I,
00:18:01
Speaker
wouldn't naturally pick up and some that I've just have catnip to me.
00:18:05
Speaker
Um, then actually maybe that's, what's going to happen now, you know, with each new book that I think, well, okay, I've just done a haters to lovers.
00:18:13
Speaker
Maybe this next one would be something else that's, so I am kind of using the tropes now, I think to, to work out what I want to work on next, but I haven't done that up to now.
00:18:24
Speaker
I don't think I've automatically gone in and said, I'm going to do a secret billionaire.
00:18:29
Speaker
book.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:31
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:18:32
Speaker
I guess you're just much more aware of them now.
00:18:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:35
Speaker
I think we're certainly within, if you're within romance, tropes are so key now they really are.
00:18:41
Speaker
And, but it, it, it really is kind of more, it's a classification just as if you went into the library and you'd go non-fiction or fiction and then within the, you know, the fiction, you'd go crime section or you'd go sci-fi section or you'd go romance section or
00:18:55
Speaker
whatever.
00:18:56
Speaker
And then within that, you then go to the next subsection.
00:18:59
Speaker
And it's just narrowing down niche by niche as to what your bag is really, and what shelf you should be looking at.
00:19:07
Speaker
And from a writer's point of view, it's like, which things do I really enjoy?
00:19:10
Speaker
And what will I put together to make hopefully a combination that is different?
00:19:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true.
00:19:18
Speaker
I'd not thought of it like that as a sort of smaller subcategory within romance.
00:19:23
Speaker
I don't think there's any other sort of bigger genre that has those kinds of granular breakdowns.
00:19:30
Speaker
Not this many.
00:19:30
Speaker
I'm sure crime does, whether you want a police procedural or, and I'm not familiar enough with the crime.
00:19:38
Speaker
But it's usually two or three, right?
00:19:39
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:40
Speaker
And then you can go further and further and then people will realise what the kind of things they like.
00:19:45
Speaker
I mean, I know that there's people who generally like a crime book that has no romance in it at all.
00:19:52
Speaker
They don't want to see anything like that.
00:19:54
Speaker
And so that's almost its own little niche in its, or I don't know, is that a trope?
00:19:59
Speaker
I don't know, maybe it is.
00:19:59
Speaker
You know, so people, you find what is your...
00:20:06
Speaker
what floats your boat and then you will naturally kind of seek out others do that you know a cozy crime that's a whole new one it's not new they've been around for a long time but uh it's suddenly having a real heyday and um so yeah cozy crime is its own trope too i think cozy is spreading into all the genres now because i'm a big fantasy reader and cozy fantasy has just hit the scene has it
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
There's a book called Legends and Lattes, which absolutely blew up.
00:20:33
Speaker
I read it recently.
00:20:34
Speaker
I've got that on my Kindle to read, actually.
00:20:36
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:20:37
Speaker
Maybe I've got the second one to read, I think.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:41
Speaker
It's next up.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
So I'm looking forward to that.
00:20:44
Speaker
It's fun.
00:20:44
Speaker
It's fun to see something like that, where it's like, I kind of,
00:20:49
Speaker
got to know the idea of what cozy meant within a book through like cozy crime and things like Thursday murder club and stuff.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:20:56
Speaker
Um, and then, and then seeing it transfer over to like fantasy and think, oh, this is, it's like, yeah, it's the, the genre is fantasy, but the feel, the vibe is very much cozy.
00:21:07
Speaker
And that's,
Mixing Genres for New Storytelling
00:21:08
Speaker
it's really interesting to see.
00:21:08
Speaker
That's really exciting, isn't it?
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:11
Speaker
I think that's so I'm a fan of a writer called Lindsay Davis, who writes historical crime set in Roman times.
00:21:20
Speaker
And they've always been funny and they've been going for decades.
00:21:24
Speaker
And they they've been funny.
00:21:25
Speaker
So I think that would have been you class that now as cozy historical crime.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:31
Speaker
I mean, that's that's really getting quite niche then, isn't it?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
Well, and then there's also, um, like cozy horror is a big thing in YA now you get like, they call it spooky, but it's like, it's cozy spooky where it's like ghost hunting and vampires, but it's all kind of like cute.
00:21:47
Speaker
I've just read that.
00:21:48
Speaker
Um, I've just read one of those.
00:21:49
Speaker
And are you aware of Mark Stey's, uh, Witches of Woodville series?
00:21:53
Speaker
I'm not, no.
00:21:54
Speaker
Oh, they are lovely.
00:21:55
Speaker
They are charming.
00:21:56
Speaker
They're set in the Second World War down in Kent, but they're really creepy as well.
00:22:03
Speaker
And so it's historical, I guess you could class it almost as historical, cosy historical horror.
00:22:11
Speaker
Lovely books and, you know, proper, really, really charming.
00:22:15
Speaker
But then, yes, these just that kind of really...
00:22:19
Speaker
horrible bits too.
00:22:20
Speaker
And really creepiness as well.
00:22:22
Speaker
So no, I really enjoy this kind of bringing together things from other genres or mixing it up, really like making that, that mashup to bring something new.
00:22:33
Speaker
I think that's fantastic.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool.
00:22:35
Speaker
It's very exciting.
Pernilla's Publishing Journey
00:22:36
Speaker
I'd love to talk a bit about your experiences within publishing itself.
00:22:41
Speaker
All three of your novels are published with one more chapter, which is a HarperCollins imprint.
00:22:47
Speaker
Correct.
00:22:48
Speaker
The first one, Punch Drunk Love, published 2018.
00:22:53
Speaker
But I noticed, and I was curious about this, it was published before that under a different title.
00:23:00
Speaker
What was the situation with that?
00:23:01
Speaker
Right.
00:23:02
Speaker
So the book was written under the title of Sweatpants at Tiffany's.
00:23:06
Speaker
That's a great name.
00:23:08
Speaker
I loved it.
00:23:09
Speaker
And it was actually one of those books where when people say, how did you think of your books?
00:23:13
Speaker
Well, it literally was a pun on a film.
00:23:17
Speaker
I was sitting thinking, I had just come runner up in a short story anthology.
00:23:21
Speaker
And I thought, well, now, okay, I've had the validation that I can write.
00:23:25
Speaker
Let's write something big.
00:23:27
Speaker
And then I thought, well, what's that going to be?
00:23:29
Speaker
And then on the telly, Breakfast at Tiffany's came up and I loved that film.
00:23:34
Speaker
And I thought, well, what would a pun on that be?
00:23:37
Speaker
Because there are lots of women's fiction books, which are puns on some titles or film titles.
00:23:45
Speaker
Anyway, I came up with Sweatpants at Tiffany's and thought, well, what would that story be about?
00:23:49
Speaker
And I think it'd be someone who is not a sporty, I, me,
00:23:53
Speaker
Um, and she's put into a fish out of water situation.
00:23:57
Speaker
There we go.
00:23:57
Speaker
There's a trope there.
00:23:59
Speaker
Um, and you know, she, let's say she, in her
00:24:02
Speaker
the inheritance of boxing gym, what does she do?
00:24:03
Speaker
And then it was really one of those and what happens now and what happens now.
00:24:06
Speaker
And I was just making notes.
00:24:07
Speaker
And so the book was sold, uh, as sweatpants at Tiffany's and was indeed published by one more chapter as sweatpants at Tiffany's, but we just didn't think that, well, okay.
00:24:18
Speaker
The sales weren't good enough to make us think that actually it was serving the story.
00:24:24
Speaker
Maybe enough, not enough people got the, the reference.
00:24:27
Speaker
Um, so it had a bit of a makeover, change the title, change the cover.
00:24:32
Speaker
and you know is is better off for it so sometimes you know I I love the title it really tickled me and I got so much good feedback on the title but you know if it doesn't sell then it's not doing its job and so sometimes you have to not
00:24:47
Speaker
be precious about those things and just let the marketers do their thing.
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting.
00:24:53
Speaker
And also really good that one more chapter said, look, this isn't selling, but we think, you know, mixing up the branding and the cover of the title could actually get this going well.
00:25:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
And, and so from my point of view, well, I had nothing to gain by going, Oh no, you've got to keep it.
00:25:11
Speaker
Um, so no, I, I, I, and you're right.
00:25:14
Speaker
I was, I was heartened by the fact that they were wanting to make this change and give it another push.
00:25:20
Speaker
So that was, that was a good thing.
00:25:22
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:25:22
Speaker
And, and I think,
00:25:24
Speaker
Well, you see it time and again, even with like, um, how many different covers has something like Harry Potter had now?
00:25:29
Speaker
They have different editions come out all the time, don't they?
00:25:31
Speaker
I feel like every cover gets worse with Harry Potter as well.
00:25:34
Speaker
Every time I see the new covers, I'm like, you've made it worse again.
00:25:36
Speaker
Well done.
00:25:37
Speaker
Oh no, but it makes it, well, allegedly it refreshes the brand.
00:25:42
Speaker
Um, yes.
00:25:43
Speaker
And so I do see the value in that.
00:25:45
Speaker
And so that's what happened there.
00:25:46
Speaker
But I generally, what my worry is that people would buy the book thinking it was a new book and then get it home and then open it and see that it's still Sweatpants at Tiffany's and they've already bought it.
00:25:55
Speaker
And I always therefore put Punch Drunk Love brackets, formerly known as Sweatpants at Tiffany's, just because I don't want people to buy it and already have it.
00:26:06
Speaker
Well, if they've got sweatpants at Tiffany's, that's probably a collector's item now.
00:26:11
Speaker
So I wish, uh, but yeah, I do.
00:26:15
Speaker
I've held onto a copy.
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:17
Speaker
Well, it's going to be like J.R.
00:26:19
Speaker
Hartley on his phone advert, isn't he?
00:26:21
Speaker
Or is that a really old reference?
00:26:22
Speaker
You know, um, probably is.
00:26:25
Speaker
Don't worry.
00:26:26
Speaker
Ignore that bit.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah.
Balancing Light and Shade in Writing
00:26:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:26:29
Speaker
Amazing.
00:26:29
Speaker
Well, we've talked about, so we talked a lot about rom-coms, about romance and discussed how, how difficult and tricky it is to write and to keep it fresh and to kind of like innovate within the genre.
00:26:38
Speaker
What advice would you give to, to romance writers out there, rom-com writers out there to, to write, you know, write their stories whilst keeping the romance true and also keeping the comedy funny?
00:26:53
Speaker
I think it's a balance of light and shade.
00:26:55
Speaker
I think you need to have both because one elevates the other.
00:27:02
Speaker
I would, with my, with 10 years, it was very much because of it.
00:27:05
Speaker
The book deals with grief.
00:27:06
Speaker
There's, there's that theme running through of the different ways people handle grief.
00:27:11
Speaker
And so some scenes were about the grief, but then I would look at them and I was thinking, where is the funny in this?
00:27:16
Speaker
And equally, some of them were just like kind of the, the madness of the tasks.
00:27:20
Speaker
And then I was thinking, well, okay, where is the depth in this chapter?
00:27:25
Speaker
So it was really doing a pass to kind of check that there was a balance in all of it.
00:27:31
Speaker
Equally, I wanted my characters to come across as really real.
00:27:38
Speaker
They're actually very flawed characters.
00:27:40
Speaker
And Becca, for example, the lead, she's very spiky.
00:27:43
Speaker
And I know that's made a bit of a mummite character for some, but that was deliberate because
00:27:49
Speaker
I wanted them to be flawed and relatable.
00:27:52
Speaker
And what I would definitely and do advise writers to do there is to lock yourself in a room with a pad of paper, a pen and a glass of wine.
00:28:02
Speaker
And then write down all of your own personal flaws to be merciless in this task.
00:28:10
Speaker
And if you don't come out with a list, then you're not trying hard enough.
00:28:13
Speaker
Um, and then once that is done, drink the glass of wine because you will need it.
00:28:17
Speaker
And then, um, you will have in front of you a list of flaws that you can write about with knowledge and, uh, detail and maybe some, uh, reasoning why it is as it is because you understand it.
00:28:33
Speaker
And I think that's what I take from the, the adage of, you know, write what you know, um,
00:28:39
Speaker
It's because you know those flaws because they are yours.
00:28:42
Speaker
And therefore that when it goes down on the page, if you dig deep enough, readers will recognize maybe a bit in themselves and also maybe in other people and your characters will be rounder and real for it.
00:28:57
Speaker
That's a great little tip.
00:28:58
Speaker
I've not, I've not, I've not heard of that little strategy before, but that's, yeah.
00:29:02
Speaker
I mean, that's one of the, the best things that for people to do is because I think whenever you write, there's a, you know, all the characters are created from you.
00:29:11
Speaker
So they all do have, a lot of the time people do give them their own flaws, but to, to write them all out, that's a great, that's a great plan.
00:29:17
Speaker
And then divide them equally between the characters.
00:29:19
Speaker
Well, yes, hopefully.
00:29:20
Speaker
I mean, I, I, all my characters are me in some way.
00:29:24
Speaker
And I think I've, I've kind of discovered that I'm just trying to get around doing therapy because actually if I can just do, you know, something that's wrong with me in each book or just investigate it, then I'll save some money.
00:29:35
Speaker
Then you can just do one therapy session, but like in advance, you send them all your books and be like, so this is me.
00:29:42
Speaker
You can prep for our session.
00:29:43
Speaker
I've highlighted some passages for you.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:49
Speaker
Amazing.
00:29:49
Speaker
Amazing.
Favorite Historical Romance
00:29:51
Speaker
Well, that brings us to the end of the episode and the final question, which as always is, Pernilla, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would you want it to be?
00:30:05
Speaker
Right.
00:30:05
Speaker
So this is a book by the author I mentioned earlier, Lindsay Davis, who wrote the Falco series set in ancient Rome.
00:30:13
Speaker
But she wrote this side book called The Course of Honour.
00:30:16
Speaker
And it's a romance.
00:30:17
Speaker
It's a second chance romance, which I'm an absolute sucker for.
00:30:22
Speaker
And it spans decades.
00:30:24
Speaker
And I love that.
00:30:26
Speaker
The more time between the second chance and the first is, oh, I love, I just love it.
00:30:32
Speaker
And this book is one that I will reread.
00:30:36
Speaker
I don't reread that many books, but this one I can keep returning to again and again.
00:30:40
Speaker
And it's about the emperor of Spatian and his freed woman, Canis, who
00:30:47
Speaker
I wish I pronounced those right, but that's how it is in my head.
00:30:50
Speaker
And that is actually true.
00:30:53
Speaker
That bit is true.
00:30:54
Speaker
But then she has taken it and then just run with it and made this epic romance, which I just love.
00:30:59
Speaker
And generally, it's not really, I don't think it's particularly well known, or maybe that's in my head.
00:31:04
Speaker
But I was sitting at a retreat, a writer's retreat a year ago now.
00:31:10
Speaker
And I was sitting next to someone and they said, you know, what's your, what's your favorite book?
00:31:13
Speaker
I said, this one is my favorite book.
00:31:15
Speaker
I love that book.
00:31:15
Speaker
And it was another person who had read the book.
00:31:18
Speaker
And so we, we prattled for a good half an hour just because we didn't think anyone else knew this book.
00:31:23
Speaker
And then I was at a book festival in March, May, and a lovely whitehead lady came up and spoke to me and we were talking about, and she loved
00:31:36
Speaker
And it was just, oh, the joy of finding someone else who loves a particular, but not very well known book that you love.
00:31:43
Speaker
Um, oh, there's a special joy to that.
00:31:45
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:31:45
Speaker
There is.
00:31:46
Speaker
So yeah, Lindsay Davis, The Course of Honour, if you like a romance set in historical times.
00:31:52
Speaker
Yes.
00:31:52
Speaker
Or if you think you like it, you know, some people, you'd never tried that.
00:31:55
Speaker
They're like, oh, I've only read contemporary romance.
00:31:57
Speaker
Why don't I try something in ancient romance?
00:31:58
Speaker
Yes.
00:31:58
Speaker
Try something new.
00:31:59
Speaker
Switch it up.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:02
Speaker
Um, amazing.
00:32:03
Speaker
What a, what a cool answer.
00:32:04
Speaker
And it is one of the, the moment when you, you, you meet someone and you're talking to them and you realize you both like a book, it's like, oh great.
00:32:10
Speaker
Let's talk about the book.
00:32:11
Speaker
So good.
00:32:11
Speaker
Isn't it?
00:32:12
Speaker
Yes.
00:32:13
Speaker
Cause usually you're like, oh, I wish there was someone else I could talk to about this book.
00:32:17
Speaker
It's especially if it is like an older book.
00:32:19
Speaker
And then I'm trying to think when this was written in 1997.
00:32:21
Speaker
So we're right back
Podcast Wrap-Up and Contacts
00:32:22
Speaker
into last century.
00:32:22
Speaker
Um,
00:32:29
Speaker
So yeah, the older it is, the more chance that someone won't have read it.
00:32:31
Speaker
Well, unless it's a classic.
00:32:34
Speaker
And sometimes it just pushed my buttons.
00:32:36
Speaker
I liked it a lot.
00:32:39
Speaker
Amazing.
00:32:39
Speaker
Well, a great answer, a great addition to the library.
00:32:42
Speaker
And thank you so much, Penilla, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about your writing and rom-coms and your kind of experiences with them publishing.
00:32:51
Speaker
It's been really cool chatting with you.
00:32:52
Speaker
Oh, it's been such a treat.
00:32:53
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
00:32:55
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Penilla is doing, you can follow her on Twitter and Instagram at Penilla Hughes or head over to her website, PenillaHughes.com.
00:33:05
Speaker
To make sure you didn't miss an episode of this podcast, follow along on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok and Facebook.
00:33:09
Speaker
You can support the show on Patreon and for more bookish chat, check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:33:14
Speaker
Thanks again to Penilla and thanks to everyone listening.
00:33:16
Speaker
We'll catch you in the next episode.