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Cramer and Associates
249 Plays2 years ago
Robert Cramer and Dan Cramer are second-generation leaders of Cramer and Associates, a family-founded construction company specializing in bridge and culvert building. Following the entrepreneurial spirit of their fathers, both Robert and Dan have advanced the company by maintaining a strong work ethic and upholding values of integrity and quality craftsmanship.
The conversation unfolds with a reflection on the company's origins, Robert and Dan offer a historical account of how their fathers, hailing from humble beginnings, leveraged the interstate system construction boom to establish Cramer Brothers and eventually transitioned to Cramer and Associates. They emphasize the importance of the employee stock ownership plan (ESOP) in fostering a culture of ownership and responsibility among workers, fundamentally shaping the company's success.
Key Takeaways from the episode include:
- The pivotal role of strategic generational transitions in maintaining a company's longevity.
- How the ESOP model can empower employees and positively affect a company's performance.
- The significance of incorporating personal faith and values into business practices and leadership.
- The importance of on-field leadership in ensuring efficiency and fostering a culture of ownership.
- The challenges and growth opportunities presented by large-scale infrastructure projects.
Notable Quotes:
- "If you look at the ESOP as a giveaway, you'll be very happy with it." - Robert Cramer
- "Having an eternal perspective, I think a good spiritual perspective allows you to have a sense of humility in leadership." - Dan Cramer
- "It just flat doesn't work today... you've lost that 'it's on me, I need to figure this out.'" - Dan Cramer on adapting leadership styles.
- "Every job we get, we have to be the low bidder, right? Because it's public money." - Robert Cramer on the bidding nature of the construction industry.
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Goals
00:00:00
Speaker
Everyone dreams of living an uncommon life and the best asset you have to achieve your dreams is you. Welcome to the Uncommon Wealth Podcast. We're going to introduce you to people who are living uncommonly. We're also going to give you some tools and strategies for building wealth and for pursuing an uncommon path that is uniquely right for you.
Meet the Hosts & Special Family Episode
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello, and welcome, everybody, to the Uncomable Wealth Podcast, where I'm your host, Philip Ramsey. And I'm Aaron Cramer. We got a special one today. I got my family here. Wow. Yes, it's great. I'm excited. It's unique. I think a lot of you guys that own a business are going to take a lot away from this. So I know I'm excited about it because they're the...
00:00:47
Speaker
big dogs in my family and they have a lot of wisdom to give. So I'm super excited, let's get into it.
The Kramer Family Business Legacy
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, so we got Robert Kramer and Dan Kramer today. And the thing that I really wanna unpack is this is actually their second generation of taking it over. So we'll start there. How did you guys get to your point? Tell us about Kramer and Associates. Where did it come from? And like, we'll just start there. Like, where did it come from? Good as the history, so our listeners understand.
00:01:14
Speaker
Well, I'll take a shot first. Dan will fill in the blanks. So our dads were brothers and they lived in southern Missouri. Dad comes up to Iowa to go to Buena Vista College, transfers to Iowa State. At Iowa State, you know,
00:01:29
Speaker
Iowa DOT is in Ames along with Iowa State so he started working for the DOT in the summer and a contractor hired him. He was like an ag engineering major but started working for a contractor in the summer and all of a sudden he becomes a partner and moves up and now he's building bridges and culverts. So about that time as his brothers graduated out of high school and Dan's dad went to college they started coming up and joining them so then it became Kramer Brothers.
00:01:59
Speaker
Did I miss anything there, Dan? No, that's mostly it. What did you miss mostly? I'm currently working on a historical account for our yearly meeting, and yeah, there's a lot of details, but no, that's the bulk of it. They moved up there, there's a bunch of poor broke farm kids.
00:02:19
Speaker
and took the opportunity of the interstate system being constructed in the late fifties, early sixties and really worked. It's amazing to think they started with absolutely nothing. Isn't that fascinating?
Football Days & Business Beginnings
00:02:32
Speaker
A claw hammer and borrow enough money to buy a wheelbar. And knowledge in your head. Let's see how it goes. And just work ethic, just the ability to use your hands to build things and get paid for it.
00:02:43
Speaker
OK, so you guys were just a wee little lad or not even a part of the picture yet. You guys weren't born yet. Not even a glimmer in their eye. OK. All right. So they go to Iowa State. And then where did your father go to? Missouri. Missouri. OK. Played football at University of Missouri. Oh, OK. Played a little football. He's kind of a little guy. They're bigger now. What position?
00:03:05
Speaker
You know, I don't know. At college, he was kind of an all-star running back in high school. OK. But I think he was more linebacker in college. Or maybe defensive back. Yeah, defensive back. Kind of like a corner. He was fairly short. He said that his coach told him, it's not how big you are. It's how tightly you're wound. It worked out well. I kind of described him. He always told me, because he's my grandpa, he said he had to learn everything to get time on the field. So he played all the positions. It was my understanding. But you guys were no better than me.
00:03:34
Speaker
Well, I wasn't there, but it wasn't as professional a sport as it is today. The libero of football back then. Yeah. Yeah. You played both sides. You didn't have 100 people. Well, you got to ask to go pro. I didn't hear that story. I heard that story. He got asked to go pro, but you'd make a way better living. Not doing that. Not doing that. So he turned that down. Yeah, that was before pro was, not by today's standards. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Right.
Transformation to Kramer and Associates
00:04:02
Speaker
So in the late 70s, they did another transition where they became non-union. They started Kramer and Associates. They went from Kramer Brothers to Kramer Associates, which is non-union, and also it's an ESOP, employee stock ownership plan. That's huge. We're going to get into that. Yeah. So that is a good, laid a good groundwork for us. Okay. So at that point in the 70s, now you're born.
00:04:24
Speaker
Right. Yes. And switching from union to employee owned is a huge deal. Do you remember any of that? Or like, do you remember the history of why and how that went down? And I don't know the history.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know all the history. I was high schooled in. I actually worked for Kramer Brothers some when I first started and joined the labor union. So for about five, six years, both companies operated as a double-breasted company.
00:04:55
Speaker
It was a fad then. Everybody did that. I don't know all the reasons why. But the unions in the highway industry did kind of fall apart in the 80s. The market really got tough. And most highway builders moved away from union help and started doing something else.
00:05:15
Speaker
So there were places, and still are, places in the country where it is extremely difficult to work without being union.
Union Challenges & Employee Ownership
00:05:21
Speaker
You'll get picketed and your suppliers won't bring you concrete and all this kind of stuff. The union, back in the day, the unions blew up a crane or set a crane on fire or something. It was almost like the mafia. Without saying that, I'm loud. I'd probably get hit for that. Well, I had a union guy tell me just a few years ago, when we didn't want to move forward with them, they said, well, man, we might have to just go back to being nasty.
00:05:43
Speaker
Okay, good to know. It was good for them to break away. But the other big piece of it is just the control. I mean, Dan can maybe speak to this of just who's in charge on the job site. You know, is the labor going to look at you and say, I can't pick up that two by four, that's a carpenter's job, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I agree. And that was part of the, yeah, I don't want to go off on union bashing.
00:06:08
Speaker
I know a lot of union people, they're all good people. They're great people, right. For our work in our industry, the unions were gaining a little bit too much control over the trades and who did what. And it did seem like it wasn't just us, the entire road building industry
Understanding ESOP Benefits
00:06:23
Speaker
kind of moved away from union help at that time period. Right. Okay. So talk to me about employee owned and how many employees did you have at the time or did Kramer and Associates have?
00:06:34
Speaker
I don't know how many at that time. I would guess 70 or 80 at the time. OK. Yeah. And that's also, you can't be a union and an ESOP. Right. So you got to pick your lane. Yes. And so it really, my dad always said, if you look at the ESOP as a giveaway, you'll be very happy with it. If you look at it as just a tax break, trying to get around paying taxes, you'll get frustrated. Because every dollar you put into that ESOP belongs to somebody else.
00:07:02
Speaker
So you're giving it to the employees. And so we give a percentage of the employees income can be anywhere from zero to 15%. Uh, at the end of the year, we calculate their income, take, let's say 5% of it and put it into the pot and their name and that pot buys Kramer associate stock. So they are invested in the company. Right.
00:07:26
Speaker
It is a really change in mindset because no longer is it kind of management against employees. Now you're treating employees. We're all in the same boat. Yeah, you're treating employees like owners, which they are. And then they start acting like owners. And then all the time. It's huge. Yeah. Especially in our work. Our work is so labor intensive. It's all about how efficient can we be of getting the job done. If we can get it done more quickly and with less labor than our competitor, then we'll be very successful. If we can't, then we'll be toast.
00:07:58
Speaker
Okay, so I was part of a company, ITA group in West Des Moines and they were at ESOP as well. I was just out of college so I didn't really understand it and you had to be there for over five years to even get a part of that. But what I do remember is the annual meetings and the CEO would get up and kind of talk and then
00:08:15
Speaker
he would give the ESOP price. And I remember people weeping that we've been there for a while, like it's a huge benefit. And that always stuck in my head of like, this employee-owned thing, one, employees take more responsibility. But then they get to be unified in the reward of seeing that number go up exponentially. And they all just, I mean, it was just, it was impactful to me. So I think that was the right decision that both your dad's made for you.
00:08:43
Speaker
Okay. And so tell me, and sorry, Aaron, I'm kind of going this interview, but, uh, tell me how that transition went from when your parents, your dads were like, all right, here's how we're going to transition this thing. Cause that is not an easy decision and it's not normally a smooth transition only because we all have thought like I'll work forever in my mind. Maybe that's just what I've seen. So the OGs are the OGs and they, they're there. They built something for a reason. Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I wouldn't use the word smooth probably, and I'm not sure it was their idea. Um, it was Robert's dad. It was his idea to transition, I believe, but there was two other brothers that owned this thing. I wouldn't say it was unanimous. I think some thought, well, when I'm gone, it's going to fold up because I'm doing all the work, right? Yeah. So there was some of that old school mentality in there that had to be dealt with, but, um,
00:09:41
Speaker
I think Robert Stadell did try to start the transition really early, kind of almost in the early 90s. He set up a management team with us on it to manage the day-to-day operations. How old was he at that point?
00:09:53
Speaker
So, you know, I'm the youngest of six kids. So I graduated Iowa State at 1990. He graduated 1950. So he's 40 years older than I am. So he was 62 when I graduate college. So he's already thinking kind of retirement. So in 90. So that's why he started planning pretty good. And then by 2000, we finally did it. Okay.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, I had 99, but it might've been 2000. We actually retained some counsel and I affirmed to help us with the formal transition because we were getting stalled. Bunch of family in the room with yellow notepads. We need to do this and the brothers start arguing back and forth. Oh, we ain't gonna do that. You told me 30 years ago we were gonna do this. Some of that started happening. So we actually went out kind of on our own without the first generation.
00:10:44
Speaker
retain some help.
00:10:48
Speaker
And you know, you think you go out and hire an expert, it's not so much that they're experts, we needed a facilitator. Absolutely, I was gonna say that. We needed somebody. An expert. You just need somebody. Yeah, you know, they didn't know anything about what we did. Right. They didn't know anything about our business. You know it. But they knew they needed to lock us in a room and not let us out until we fought through this thing. And facilitate it. Yeah, and it worked. It wasn't cheap, it seemed like it was too much money, but in hindsight, oh, it would have been a shame if we wouldn't have got it done. Definitely, man. Yeah.
00:11:15
Speaker
So they thought, yeah, this expert's going to come down from on high and tell them what to do with their company. So they started to panic and more plans started getting cranked out. But they really couldn't agree. My dad and Dan's dad, his dad was like vice president. He really felt like my dad had been loaf in the last several years. So he wanted to become president and loaf for a few years before retirement. My dad was nervous about that, didn't want that to happen. So they couldn't get to agreement. So all he did is put the older generation in one room.
00:11:44
Speaker
the younger generation in other rooms. Fascinating. What do you need? What do you need? And within 24 hours, yeah, we had a deal.
00:11:51
Speaker
Isn't that really interesting? Like, you just go back to like, no, but what do you want? And then let's facilitate that. Because if you just think about the mountain you have to climb, it's overwhelming. But if you think about what do you want, it helps kind of
Management Transition & Leadership Planning
00:12:03
Speaker
siphon out the things, oh, that's all you want? Well, like, they'll totally give that to you. Happy to do that. Well, I don't know if we were happy, but it was worth it. Yeah. What's your father's name? George.
00:12:16
Speaker
Just wanted to know. All right, so tell us more. So after that, now has kind of been ironed out. You've hired the facilitators to help kind of work that out. Tell us about the next phase. And when did you guys start thinking of like, hey, listen, we could do this in a different way? Because there's always like, we have our own history. And that history, I think, gives us our own unique perspective. Well, yeah, hold on though, Philip. How did implementing the plan go?
00:12:43
Speaker
don't know like you did the ever plans a good plan so you know you hit the face so how'd that go yeah you know it's interesting it was it went could not have gotten better in the sense that we laid out my dad would retire right away
00:12:59
Speaker
George would retire off the board two years later. He actually kind of stopped doing day-to-day operations, but two years later he stepped off the board, and then another two years after that, or maybe four, their youngest brother Don went off. So we kind of, you know,
00:13:15
Speaker
As soon as you have a date, you can kind of live with whatever date. It's just when you're working and you think, are these guys ever going to go? That gets hard for everybody. Yeah. So having a date set made it easy on everybody. But the biggest part was the company really started to prosper during those years. And so as shareholders, they were extremely happy. We're an S corp, so they're getting a good dividend off of their shares.
00:13:42
Speaker
stepping back to that ESOP for a second. The ESOP owned about 38-40% of the company, so 40% of the profit was going to the ESOP. So that's why the ESOP participants, the employees, were very happy with what they were seeing. But the brothers were very happy too. What was going on in the 2000s, 2000 to 2006, was the reconstruction of I-235 here in Des Moines.
00:14:05
Speaker
So 77 structures were either, you know, bridges were either widened or replaced during that time. And there really were only about three contractors who would bid that because it's just, it was tough, a lot of night work, hard traffic. Big jobs. Yeah. And they got bigger and bigger. So we ended up doing about a third of that work and we bought more equipment. We hired more superintendents. So it was a good, a good time of growth for the company. So which timing was great. Perfect timing.
00:14:34
Speaker
So at the time of like the transition, how big was Cramer's and Associates? Like compared to like other bridge building companies in the Midwest? Oh, you know, similar. I'm just thinking of the ones that worked on 235. There was one that was more of a nationwide company they have.
00:14:52
Speaker
Operations outside but the rest of us were probably similar United and her burger. I mean all kind of local family businesses Okay, I don't know how many employees in between 70 and 100 maybe but okay It's like I mean I I know again my dad wasn't involved too much like Like I always thought you guys were like close to like top like for just the Midwest not your international or national companies like close to be like second largest or
00:15:18
Speaker
So here in Iowa, you know, probably before 2000, we were maybe just doing, you know, 20, 25 million a year or something, and we're doing mostly repair work. So we do, you know, build new bridges and we repair bridges kind of all around the state and a little bit of surrounding states. Well, then during that time, when you start doing more
00:15:36
Speaker
true replacement of bridges, you're buying a lot more materials and you need bigger equipment. So now all of a sudden we're growing up to 50 million a year, you know, and then, um, and stayed that size for quite a while. And then here in recent years, they've been doing these big mega projects that are a hundred million dollar jobs and stuff. So our, so our volume looks a lot bigger, even though the company isn't that much bigger, but okay.
00:16:01
Speaker
Okay, so you have six siblings. You have five and you're the sixth. How many siblings do you have? Three. So how does that work exactly in that transition? Because I feel like that's like something that can go haywire very quickly.
00:16:17
Speaker
Robert's the youngest of his family, so his siblings had already all moved on and started other careers, never worked for the company. I've got two older sisters that never had any interest, and then Aaron's dad, my little brother, he worked for the company for a while and had to retire for health reasons. So the siblings never really got.
00:16:38
Speaker
Um, it was all cut and dry. And part of the reason the transition works so well, I think once we were already. Functionally, we were already transitioned by setting up the management team in the early nineties. Um, the work had or the work leadership had already shifted. It was really a matter of formalizing it and putting an end date to the first generation of that. That was 90% of it. Yeah.
00:17:04
Speaker
So that's why it worked so well, because functionally, we were already there. How is like, for each of you, like the relationship with your dad's, like, because I mean, this is their, their baby that they grew and built, like personally, like, when you talk to them, and you hang out with them, you know, they're out of it, how'd that all go for
Post-Transition Relationships & Future Planning
00:17:25
Speaker
you guys? Like, was it like one of those, was it sour or not? Not sour, sour is not a word, but just like, hey, I don't need your opinion anymore.
00:17:32
Speaker
You know, they, we, I felt like we were very fortunate that my dad was kind of forward thinking and wanting to transition. Absolutely. And especially in our construction industry, you see a lot of guys hanging on to their, until they die. Uh,
00:17:48
Speaker
So he really wanted to get it kind of moved to this next generation and navigating his brothers. And it was probably the part that was the tougher part. It would also became very fortunate was that my dad, had we not transitioned, he passed away in 2002. So just two years after that really got implemented. So, and didn't see that coming at all. He had, you know, so it was fortunate that we had, he had done that planning. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:18:19
Speaker
Okay, so when did it start taking on a life of its own? The one that now you had a vision of and was that hard transition because like your parents, your dads ran it a certain way and then you were like, okay, now, but we need to keep moving the ball forward and expanding and growing. And we see opportunities, obviously, as you've talked about, um,
00:18:40
Speaker
How did you end up being unified on that vision, I guess, and obviously it's different because you had to grow it. So talk to me. You know, I think Robert might see it differently, but I'm not sure we had to create a new vision. They had such a strong, we had such a diving board to leap off of, such a strong roots and a family business. When I think of the growth they had from starting with nothing
00:19:09
Speaker
You know, through the fifties and sixties to building it up to where we got. All we had to do is just keep that ball rolling, man, and just keep pushing and just keep working like we'd learned to work.
00:19:20
Speaker
And it would fall into place. And it really did. I don't know that we had to create a new vision. We just had to not lose the culture that we had already and keep it moving. What a blessing. Yeah. And I think it worked well. So the way we split the task was, you know, I was more in the office doing estimating engineering, uh, that, you know, kind of the safety and accounting stuff. Dan was doing all the work. So, so he, uh, but the two of us, I think we're fairly like-minded in going after work. We're both fairly aggressive. Uh, you know, didn't,
00:19:50
Speaker
didn't shy away from the tougher jobs and that kind of thing. And so that helped and I tried to defer to Dan a lot on the field part and even on bidding what to bid because I wanted him to feel, I wanted the field guys to have some ownership too of what we're bidding. Absolutely.
00:20:11
Speaker
Right. Without that, it doesn't seems like it's just a different leadership style than like, Hey, what are you seeing in the trenches? I think that is a strength of our company is leadership in the field. Yeah. I think, um, companies tend to get too top heavy. Uh, they're in the office making decisions. They're bad decisions. Right. I think our setup really puts leadership in the field with boots on making the calls.
00:20:38
Speaker
And you just don't feel like you're working for some unknown face somewhere that you see once a year. Yeah. That's huge. How do you create that environment? Because I feel like a lot of companies want that. They don't get it.
00:20:50
Speaker
You don't sleep much. I mean, you gotta do the work. It's just not a magic bullet. It's just hard work and sweat, and it's being out there involved. Yeah, and asking when the decisions are made. Hey, what are you seeing? Fascinating. I know this is funny because I started with my brother. You guys can include on this because you guys know a lot more, but he calls you Dan a lot for questions and how to do things, especially as he stepped up.
00:21:18
Speaker
But like, you guys didn't always have cell phones to ask questions, and you're working on a bridge. So, yeah, or like GPS is to find where you're gonna go. You gotta read the map, you know? So like, how's that transition leading, like how you guys got brought up, asking questions, and now the new leadership, I mean, you guys are just a phone call away.
00:21:42
Speaker
Tell a little bit about what it was like at night having to go to find a payphone or something to call it. It's different. And I have this discussion quite a bit. And I think probably the largest technological change in my lifetime is the cell phone. I mean, we're out on the road. You know, we travel. You're out living in motels and working out in rural areas.
00:22:04
Speaker
It used to be, you left Sunday night, that's the last time you talked to anybody. You're out on your own, man. You can drive to a pay phone, 10, 15 miles away, but the person you're trying to get a hold of. Might not be there. He doesn't have a phone in his pocket. Right, right. So you spent your evenings on the phone, calling people at home. That is fascinating. If they're out on the road, you say, well, where are they? Do you know what hotel they stay in when they're there? I'll call that hotel.
00:22:32
Speaker
Do you have a Don Kramer registered there? What rooms do you have? I mean, it sounds so weird now, but it was such an integral part of your life and daily planning back then, but you did grow a fierce and a strong independence and a realization that it was on you. You weren't going to get any help because you might not get any help. You're going to have to figure it out.
00:22:55
Speaker
That's the only I'm all I'm all for technology. It's wonderful. The only downside is you've lost that it's on me. I need to figure this out the dependence attitude. Yeah, right. Yeah, and it's something that's lost. It's probably
00:23:11
Speaker
There's nothing we can do about it. Right. And if you're a listener right now and you're like, I don't know, leave your phone at home and go to the grocery store. How do you like me now? Like that's a perfect example. Like, ah, what do we do here? Just to even have that in your pocket to have an option to people. If I needed it, I can call. Yes.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah, but it's wonderful. I mean, I don't get two feet away from mine. And what it's done is it allowed us to add superintendents. And by the way, let's step back and talk a little bit about the model of our company. It's a little bit different than our competition. So my dad and George and those guys decided to, they agreed, maybe some of them reluctantly, to take our two best superintendents and take them out of the field, well, not out of the field, take them away from being a superintendent, made them a general superintendent.
00:23:58
Speaker
and put like three or four, five, six superintendents under them. And so really it was a way to multiply. So that general superintendent is now running six crews. What it appeared like at first was they thought they were taking them out of the field, you know, and these super generals might just sit in the office and goof up. But no, they are working superintendents still. So then now we have like four general superintendents overseeing like 1920 crews, but that's what really allowed us to grow. And you could,
00:24:26
Speaker
you could take a younger guy who didn't have as much experience because now you got this general looking over his shoulder. Well, probably without the cell phone, you know, been pretty risky to do that with some of those guys. That's a good point. Okay. Let's talk about your faith and how it's gotten you to where you're at today.
Influence of Faith on Company Culture
00:24:41
Speaker
And like, where does it fit in your company? Like, I feel like that's a question I love to ask, especially for uncommon people. There is a component of this underlying weaving faith component. So there's your platform. Let's rock.
00:24:55
Speaker
Well, you know, I've given this some thought and spoke about it a few times. My dad was a good example, but he wasn't someone who would just spew Jesus, you know, or Jesus talk or Christian talk. In fact, I gave Aaron the example the other day. When we were at our church, we were picking a
00:25:15
Speaker
architect for building the next church. And these different ones came in. This guy came in wearing a Jesus tie. He had a Jesus tie. Don't do it. And he had the pin. Come on now. And he said, you really need to hire me because I'm a brother, you know? Well, I think step number one is just be really good at what you do and be a really good architect. Preach it.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, so we picked this other company who seemed more professional and had more civic looking contemporary buildings. We picked them, well then actually once we got to work with them we found out he's a solid Christian that we were working with. So he was a good architect who was also a Christian as opposed to a Christian architect.
00:25:53
Speaker
So that's what we try to do. I think step one is just be really good at what you do. And I also had a really good example in Dad that he was just a good example of a Christian with integrity, you know, the way he dealt with people, treating people fairly, treating people the way he wanted to be treated. So just some good biblical values that came across. Then I think once he started to earn that reputation, then people started to figure out that he was a Christian and sometimes would come to him, you know, with their questions or concerns or in their hard times.
00:26:21
Speaker
because they knew he had an anchor. That's good, Robert. Dan. Yeah, similar. I mean, Del, Robert's dad, he was all of our mentors. He always ran the company. But all of them, they all came from a good, rooted, solid biblical bringing and background. I think that echoed through everything they did. Yeah, it's not out front every day. It's not on any of our letterhead or anything.
00:26:49
Speaker
But having an eternal perspective, I think a good spiritual perspective allows you to have a sense of humility in leadership. And I think it helps have a more servant's heart and a more servant leadership type of attitude that echoes through the company.
00:27:07
Speaker
And I think it's healthy for our company. I think it's healthy for all companies. But it's certainly been healthy for our company. I think you can see it. I hear back from some of the guys that they noticed it. Absolutely.
00:27:24
Speaker
I think it's interesting because I think if Jesus were here today, there would be many people, I love that guy. I just wanna be around him and he wouldn't be like, hey, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian. No, I'm gonna get in the depths and the trenches with you and I'm gonna serve you and I'm gonna serve you well. And when you think about this, I read a book one time, it's a leadership book, and he said, hey, the fights don't usually break out if somebody,
00:27:45
Speaker
demeans an individual. It's when they demean their mother. Now it's on. Does that make sense? Because she's served this person her whole life and now it's like, don't you ever. So there's something about serving and emulating what Jesus did and how he acted, which is so attractive to the majority of people. And so I love that when I'm also a guy that doesn't want to just put like a cross on the wall.
00:28:08
Speaker
No, I want my actions, and I want the team around you that serves you so well that you're like, there's something different. There's something uncommon here. Well, that's one of the reasons why we named it Uncommon Wealth, because we're common people. We serve an uncommon God. And so it's fascinating, too, because one of my friends started a church in Michigan.
00:28:29
Speaker
Eastern Michigan, and his church is called Commons Church. And he was like, it's interesting. I have a church called Commons Church. You have a company called Uncommon Wealth. He's like, but we're all common people. And I'm like, that's great for you, because you're in the faith, so it's common people. But we're in the secular world, and we need to be uncommon, because that's what they need. And you're in the faith world, and you need to be common people. We are common people serving an uncommon God. And I hope that, like,
00:28:59
Speaker
kind of works through us to be able to serve our clients in such a way so sounds like you do that not only from your clients perspective but from your employees perspective which i think is powerful so yeah you know it's interesting in our world every job we get we have to be the low bidder right because it's public money it's uh we're working for the dot or the county or city
00:29:20
Speaker
So therefore, we don't have to do marketing or trying to win customers. We just have to be low. However, our customers still, it's very important how we treat the DOT, those owners, and build that reputation of being honest and trustworthy.
00:29:38
Speaker
And also then a big piece is how we treat our employees because we've got it. We can't be successful without the employees and they have to kind of buy into this culture. And I think as we've thought about culture, some of those values that came from our dads are that profit sharing mentality, you know, just being honest and trustworthy, our image with the DOT and how, how we relate to
00:30:04
Speaker
subcontractors and other contractors as well as the owners and our employees.
00:30:10
Speaker
So one thing I want to make sure the listeners, we highlight for them, is that you guys have built a really big business and it's great. You guys are super successful at implementing everything in the
Balancing Family and Business
00:30:21
Speaker
business world. But what you find so often in the business world is super successful business owners, the need for their home life, and it is a hot mess. Now, I can stand here today and tell all of our listeners, that's not the case for you guys. You guys have built great homes and with your families.
00:30:41
Speaker
But talk about that and talk about making that happen because that's hardly, if our listeners remember, you guys grew up, no cell phones on the road, can't get help from your superiors, but that also means not calling your wife, telling your kids goodnight, all that stuff. Yeah. Grace. That's a great one. Yeah, I'm not gonna say did everything right or did this or did that.
00:31:07
Speaker
Probably, we're both just blessed and fortunate to have the families we have. Sometimes you just get a raw deal, you know, but yeah, I probably leaned a little bit workaholic, probably worked too much, gone too much, but just really fortunate to have the spouse I have to be supportive of that and never,
00:31:34
Speaker
downcast me for being gone too much always appreciative of my efforts and that translated into our kids then i mean they're very grateful for all the opportunities they've added it uh...
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not going to write a book on marriage or what to do right, because I doubt I did any of it right. Come on, Dan. But I'm very fortunate to have been blessed the way I have with the family I have. And it's, yeah, I think we're pretty solid. And one thing I've been impressed with Dan is that, because he spent a lot more time on the road than I did. But when he was home, he was home. So he didn't have like, you know, only be home Saturday and Sunday and then go off golfing for three hours or something. I mean, he was home with his girls. And so they still had a very close relationship.
00:32:15
Speaker
Yeah, because I will kind of echo what you said. There's a lot of people who are very successful, and they just don't have the wife that they first started with. And so there is a lot, and Aaron knows this sometimes, like when I just first meet somebody, like, how long are you married? There's a lot that you can deduce from that, whether or not they want to hear it or not. But I think there is something about your faith and your character that's like, no, I still have
00:32:40
Speaker
the same person next to me than I did. That says a lot about your spouses. It says a lot about you, too, as well. Robert, tell me yours. We've been married 36 years, so I got married at the ripe old age of 20. That's amazing. I would say that our faith is a very key component. There have been a lot of hard times. There were a lot of tough times where we were stressing each other out, but having that common faith in Christ and a
00:33:08
Speaker
kind of the rules, you know, the rules to fall back on and say, no, no, no, this is what, you know, the Bible says, or this is what Jesus said, you got to do this, was a common denominator that just held us together. And sometimes, you know, what I've found is I didn't always feel a lot of love, but when I chose to love, like 1 Corinthians 13, then I was rewarded with the feelings. The feelings would come back and I, you know, we feel closer than ever before. Yes.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah, because sometimes we're not in love anymore. Well, that's a choice. You let me know if you want to go after that, but super cool. Okay, what is some advice that you would give your younger self?
00:33:47
Speaker
Keep the weight off because it's a lot easier to get off when you're younger than when you're older. I just got that sign. I don't know. We both had awesome opportunities to be part of a successful family business. Other than a few bad decisions one day or the other, I don't know that I would change anything.
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah, probably work harder at being a better spouse and a family man if I was going to give advice to myself. But otherwise, I don't know, I certainly don't regret taking advantage of all the opportunities we had. And when you're young and healthy, you take advantage of it and do all the work you can.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think just taking advantage of every moment with your kids and with your spouse. But I really feel like that investment is paying off now. And I probably just told myself to be patient. But yeah, we have been extremely blessed.
00:34:54
Speaker
Dan, I gotta ask that, because I know I got a lot more stories about you growing up than Robert. My dad always say that you tackle everything like super competitive. I remember running to a tree or something like that in a certain amount of time. Grandpa, you made it happen, but growing up and working and growing this business, being super competitive, how would you have been more strategic with your time, I guess tackling projects?
00:35:22
Speaker
You know, like, cause you're probably like, I just jumped in two feet and just like starts handling it. But now like, you know, you, you have the knowledge that you do. If you're talking to your younger self, how would you tell them to go about it now? Yeah. I kind of segues into the last question, which I didn't answer very well. So I'll try to match them up here. Um, I mean, I grew up with.
00:35:41
Speaker
Type A depression era leaders. Not a lot of encouragement, not a lot of training, just I figured it out, you can figure it out too. So naturally that's how I was, which I thought was normal. It took me a long time to figure out that's not necessarily normal and it just flat doesn't work today. The whole concept of servant leadership and coaching people and training people, encouraging people,
00:36:11
Speaker
If I could go back and start learning some of that 20 years earlier, it would have saved a lot of grief. And you know what, that kid's still in me that learned all that stuff. So it's not like he's gone, but I've sure worked hard at retraining him to really have a deeper appreciation for people and coaching other people to succeed and giving other people opportunities.
00:36:39
Speaker
If I could have started that process a lot sooner, we'd probably have some employees today here that we lost along the way. Sure.
00:36:47
Speaker
One story I remember you telling is that you came on a job and you felt like they'd formed up this concrete totally wrong, and it was an older superintendent, a guy quite a bit older than you, who is now under your authority, and you just took it apart, the forms, and said, do that over, and this is the way you're supposed to do it. And you left the job, then you kind of snuck back to look to see what they were doing, and they were building just the way they'd always done it.
00:37:11
Speaker
So I think what you told me, the light bulb went off that, Hey, I got to come up with some other way. Cause that's not getting through. Welcome to leadership. I didn't do that. Right. I need to read and train that. That's good. Um, okay. So tell me how many employees do you have now at Kramer and associates? So at peak time will be somewhere between 140, 150. And, uh, you know, during the winter, maybe down to 90. Wow.
00:37:37
Speaker
Okay, and then what's the future of Kramer and Associates?
00:37:42
Speaker
Well, we're kind of going through transition again. Do you want to tell about that Dan? Yeah. Um, we are transitioning. Robert actually started the process a couple of years ago and stepped away from a lot of his roles. And then, uh, we actually just had a board vote, uh, this weekend to step me out at the end of this year for most of my roles. Wow. And, um, as shareholders, we'll stay on the board as co-chairs, but we'll have a new president
00:38:07
Speaker
and new vice presidents, uh, people that are currently on the team. Yeah. So not a new team, just new labels. And, uh, it'll be us to us to see if we can step away the way the first generation did, which I think we,
00:38:23
Speaker
you know it's scary but it's exciting and it's nervous but it's the right thing to do all those things right all in one bag so uh it sounds like you had really good leaders of dale and george yeah people are like this might be sooner than you want but it's better for the company in general
00:38:40
Speaker
Am I right?
Future of Kramer and Associates
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, we have these young guys who are a little older than we were when we got transitioned to us, but they're still young. They're 40s. But they're really good. So just to give them the opportunity is a great thing.
00:38:56
Speaker
Two, we're running out of Cramer's, so now it's going to be more like Associates and Cramer, instead of Cramer Associates. Aaron's brother is the only Cramer really working at the business, and he's doing well as a superintendent. So we are transitioning to our board is made up of some folks that are not Cramer's, but really high quality people.
00:39:16
Speaker
Does that make you guys feel better? Like I know like statistically, like third generation puts the family company under. No. I talked to my brother about that all the time. I was like, it's on you buddy. Yeah, I'm not worried about the company. I'm really excited about the people we have and the team we have.
00:39:35
Speaker
I'm worried about myself personally what I'm going to do, but you know, I'll deal with that. I think here's why I'm more encouraged about you guys is because you said, what's the vision different that you guys took it than the other one? And you were like, there is no different vision. It's been the same vision from the beginning and it's to serve our clients, serve our employees in such a way that we can build with integrity and character.
00:39:56
Speaker
that doesn't need to change is that make sense like that's and you're gonna be part of the board to be able to guard the company from those core values that you have instilled in you from your your dad's one of the things that they didn't do was they didn't give the company or
00:40:13
Speaker
responsibility to family members who weren't capable of doing it. And I think that's where so many third generation companies come is that they're just, you know, turning over the company to their heirs because they're the heirs instead of let's give it to the best qualified people. Right. And so would you agree? Oh, I agree. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool.
00:40:34
Speaker
Wow. This is fun. This is interesting. Okay. I've got two, I got bonus questions. All right. Uh, so bridges, that's kind of like your guys's thing. There's two bridges I wanted to talk about. I wanted to hear you guys's thoughts on that. The first one is the Minneapolis bridge that went down. So, I mean, you guys are probably up in this. Like what, what happened exactly on that thing? Cause we were in Minneapolis driving over a bridge. Here's why you take that for granted.
00:40:59
Speaker
Don't you? The work that you guys do is basically safety. And when that doesn't happen, things just go awry very quickly. Yeah, that's very interesting. They pinpointed what happened. It was a big steel gusset plate. So picture a steel plate that's maybe five foot by five foot square, and all these structural members are coming into it, and they're riveted to this plate. Well, they found out that that plate was
00:41:25
Speaker
supposed to be a hundred ksi steel but instead it was fifty ksi steel which is the way the rest of the bridge was it slipped through the uh... process and so it should have either been a hundred ksi steel or it should have been an inch thick instead of a half inch thick so this plate is half as strong as it should be but it also shows you kind of the conservative way things are designed I mean it lasted all those years I don't know how long it was you know forty years or something but they kept adding weight to it they added uh...
00:41:56
Speaker
barrier rails to this bridge. They added everything. The traffic's heavier. And then they're actually doing a concrete overlay on it. And this is the kind of work we do. So one of our competitors was working on the bridge. So the straw that broke the camel's back was that he stacked up all this big pile of rock. Do you remember how many? I want to say like 300 tons. Is that possible?
00:42:16
Speaker
Easily possible, yeah. Right on top of where this plate was. Of course, they didn't know it. Yeah. And in fact, when they were quizzed, after the bridge fell down so nobody could tell, they said, oh, no, no, that pile of rock was over the pier. So the pier's holding it up. So that wouldn't have been the problem. Well, it just so happened that some person was flying in a plane, took a picture of the bridge that day. Right on that way. Yeah, and the FBI made sure this was an authentic picture. Wow. And the date was right. And sure enough, there's that pile of rock right over where this plate collapsed.
00:42:46
Speaker
So it finally took the thing down. Oh man. Okay. The second one is the Ames bridge that goes, I, that wasn't you guys's project, right? I was just thinking like that poor person. So for those who don't know about Ames, there's this amazing overpass bridge that they had to complete. Like it was almost done. They had to completely get like, take it down and then do it again. Cause you guys know more than I do. So, but that's what happened. So it was almost done. And then they had to redo it the whole thing. So tell us about that.
00:43:16
Speaker
So this smaller contractor took this large bridge, probably a 25 million or 30 million dollar deal, and it was really more than they should have bid off. If you can picture a bridge, if you're on the interstate and you kind of veer off to the right and then fly over the traffic and over to the other direction,
00:43:34
Speaker
This bridge is, you know, it's on a slope on a super elevation as it comes around. So when you're building those piers up there in space, it's really hard to do, but they didn't do it right. You're supposed to get these anchor bolts in the correct location to hold down the steel beams that are going to sit on that pier. Well, they had a shop in the plans that said, hey, verify with your manufacturer that you're
00:44:00
Speaker
to tell you exactly how tall these little bearings are going to be, which would tell you what where to put these anchor rods and what the elevation should be. And they didn't do that. That information was in their in their office trailer and never made it out to the field. Oh, dear. So they built like five huge concrete piers huge with these anchor bolts in the wrong place. So they had to chip down each one of them like five feet off the top of the pier and chipping down the concrete to be able to get these long anchor rods out and then place them correctly and report. So it delayed it like a year.
00:44:30
Speaker
And I think if it had been a normal, if everything else had been normal, they probably would be out of business. For sure. But they were backed by a company with very deep pockets. And so they were able to weather this. Wow. Is there insurance for that? Do you have E&O insurance? No. Well, you might be able to buy it, but nobody does. Right.
00:44:51
Speaker
Mistake insurance. But you know, the owner of the Iowa DOT does kind of have an insurance policy, and that's our bond. So when we're low bidder, we have to give a performance bond to the state. And that bond tells the state that if we go belly up, the insurance company will step in, hire someone else to fix it or whatever, and finish the job. So they have kind of a guarantee. But at the end of the day, they made a gentleman's agreement that this company would not bid this kind of bridge anymore.
00:45:20
Speaker
That's great, sorry, I don't know, I'm surprised by yourself. Well, for our listeners, local listeners, if you're driving around Des Moines, Iowa, if you're driving down 235,
00:45:32
Speaker
Can you guys tell us what bridges you've built down 235? About a third. Okay. So some of the two out of the three blue arch, those pedestrian bridges, and then the three, you know, a lot of the bridges over the 235, so like Second Avenue, Third, is it? Ninth and Fifth, we did. Seventh. And then- Nineteenth. I know them all, but it'd take a minute to list them.
00:46:01
Speaker
The interesting thing we found on 19th, you might see on our website, we had a little picture of a tag. We were tearing down the old 19th Street Bridge, was that, or MLK? Sixth Street, that was Sixth Street. Okay, Sixth Street Bridge. And a laborer came up and said, hey, I found this rebar that was stuck in concrete, and it had this tag wrapped around it, and so you could open it up and you could read it perfectly. And it said, Kramer Bays Construction, 1966 or something. So we took a picture of it at least.
00:46:29
Speaker
But yeah, we're tearing down a bridge that they had built back in the 60s. Wow, that's cool. Coming full circle. Well, thank you so much for your time and expertise. And honestly, thanks for making us all safe. I think that's, we probably should say that. But yeah, super grateful just to be able to unpack some of your wisdom and how you guys are uncommon, because you guys are. So you've been listening to Uncoming Love Podcast. I've been your host, Phillip Ramsey. And Aaron Craywin. Until next time, go be uncommon. Thanks for listening.
00:46:57
Speaker
That's all for this episode, brought to you by Uncommon Wealth Partners. Be sure to visit uncommonwealth.com to learn more about our services. Don't miss an episode as we introduce you to inspiring people who are actively pursuing an uncommon life.