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Episode 30: How Could a Loving God Send People to Hell
69 Plays4 years ago
Key Idea: Hell is not where God sends us; hell is what God gives us when we freely choose to reject His gracious invitation of Heaven.
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This podcast is produced and edited by Angie Elkins Media, Inc.
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of Root Like Faith
00:00:08
Speaker
Hi, I'm Ruth Twink and I am so thrilled you're listening in with us at Root Like Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
Addressing Tough Questions: Good God and Hell
00:00:25
Speaker
Over the next few weeks, we are talking about tough questions people ask about Christianity. In particular, today we are discussing how could a good God send people to hell. Maybe you've wondered that, or maybe you've had others ask you that question. Either way, we hope that this gives you good insight and an answer. Let's get started.
Challenging Perceptions of Hell
00:00:55
Speaker
On today's episode of Root Like Faith, we are talking about hell. And more specifically, how could a loving God send people to hell? But as we'll see, hell is not where God sends us. Hell is what God gives us. Now hold on, because we're going to explain this. We're going to talk about this. And this is just a really important thing to understand.
00:01:19
Speaker
And I have to be honest, I'm so grateful, honey, that you're here as a pastor. And I know you've spent so many years studying and learning the Bible. And I just feel a lot better that you're with me to talk about this topic because it is so complex. And it's honestly a topic that people bring up a lot. I think it's a question a lot of people ask and they want to know how could a good God
00:01:45
Speaker
Send people to hell because it just doesn't seem like it adds up. It seems inconsistent, right with God's character, right? That's sort of a common Objection when you when you're talking to somebody that's that's not yet a Christian and so I just wonder who decided to do this miniseries, you know, this is difficult I'm ready to get back to something like this was you I mean, let's just go for it I mean, I think you know
00:02:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, just to kind of go back to what you were saying earlier, like this, nobody really enjoys talking about hell.
Biblical Perspective on Hell
00:02:18
Speaker
And if you do, there's something wrong with you. And yet when you read the Bible, like you can't get around the presence of hell in the scriptures and Jesus is teaching on it and the other New Testament writers, their instruction on it.
00:02:32
Speaker
So it is, I think, something really important for us as followers of Jesus. Just again, as we want to root ourselves in our faith, we want to be rooted in Christ. That means, you know, having a biblical picture, biblical understanding of what hell is and how that's consistent, you know, with God's character and why that matters. Yeah.
00:02:49
Speaker
for us as followers of Jesus and why it matters for family and friends or classmates, you know, that are not following Jesus. Right. And I think, you know, some people, because it just doesn't make sense, the tendency is to dismiss hell altogether. Like we think, well, this doesn't add up. So it must just not even be true. It must not be real.
00:03:10
Speaker
You know, maybe we need to interpret that a different way today than they had in the past, that
Evolution of Hell in Scripture
00:03:15
Speaker
kind of thing. Right. Or some people say the Old Testament, you know, is clearly approaching hell in a different manner than the New Testament. This isn't true, right? These arguments that we hear.
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, so let's maybe just sort of maybe paint a little bit of a big picture of where we see that idea of hell in the scriptures. I think for folks that are listening and want to kind of take some notes, it'd be good to go back and read a couple of these when you have an opportunity to.
00:03:44
Speaker
In the Old Testament, especially in Daniel chapter 12 verse 2, that's a good example of kind of a common Jewish understanding. I mean, you don't see a very well-developed concept necessarily of how in the Old Testament, I mean, you see sort of seeds of that and it'll come into greater clarity as Jesus talks about it and the New Testament writers talk about it.
00:04:04
Speaker
But you know Daniel chapter 12 verse 2 is one example and I think you know kind of the common Jewish understanding you know the Old Testament then really leading up to the time of Christ and even in the in the time of Christ is that you know how was this place of you know it's kind of the the abode of the dead it's where both the righteous and the unrighteous went or the unrighteous went you know when they died
00:04:26
Speaker
And so you kind of see that concept in the Old Testament and certainly in the time of Jesus as well. But Daniel 12, verse 2 would be one example from the Old Testament for those that want to just look at that at some point. And then you see the idea of how it talked about throughout the New Testament in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, verses 8 and 9. You see this teaching by the Apostle Paul. Peter talks about it.
00:04:53
Speaker
in 2 Peter chapter 2 verse 4, that hell is the place of judgment for fallen angels. And then I think what surprises a lot of people is that Jesus talked about hell a lot. And so you're talking about that idea that oftentimes we try to sort of force a division between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.
00:05:12
Speaker
And we try to go, oh man, the God of the Old Testament just seems so mad all the time. He just seems so angry. And the God of the New Testament just seems so kind and loving, and yet that's not quite true. And you see God's mercy and his grace throughout the Old Testament. And then you see in the New Testament, Jesus talking about hell a lot. And so that division isn't quite as clean as people would like it. But let me give some references of where Jesus talks about hell.
00:05:39
Speaker
But before I do that, this might be helpful. There's a couple words that are generally translated from the Hebrew and the Greek.
00:05:46
Speaker
And so when we read that word hell, there's usually either a Greek word behind it or a Hebrew word behind
Hebrew and Greek Terms for Hell
00:05:52
Speaker
it. So again, the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek. And so oftentimes what you'll read in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word sheol or gehenna. Those are two Hebrew words that get translated for us as hell. In the New Testament, you read Hades, that's the Greek word that gets translated hell.
00:06:13
Speaker
So when Jesus talks about hell, Gehenna is an interesting one because Gehenna
00:06:18
Speaker
actually is translated Valley of Henan and it was this valley just outside of Jerusalem. I think it's on the south side of Jerusalem. And it was the place where it was like a garbage dump. So if you ever see these images on TV or maybe we've seen those types of places, even in the world today, where there's like this refuse that's just burned and it's smoldering and smoking, that's what the Valley of Henan was.
00:06:44
Speaker
essentially a garbage dump, and it was a place of decay, and it was this rotting, smoking, smoldering place. Wow, what a powerful picture. Yeah, and it was also the place where child sacrifices happened. The Old Testament mentions that. I remember hearing about that. So what Jesus does is he oftentimes picks up on a physical place that would have been very familiar to those living in the city of Jerusalem or living in the land of what we call the land of Israel today.
00:07:11
Speaker
And so he picks up on that symbolism or that physical place to essentially make spiritual proclamations about what hell is like. And so every Jew living in Jerusalem or living in the land of Israel knew exactly what the Valley of Hanam was talking about. And so he uses that imagery when describing what hell is like or what eternal separation from God is really like. And so I think in the New Testament,
00:07:37
Speaker
That word Gehenna gets translated 12 times or to use 12 times. And I believe that 11 of those 12 are used by Jesus. So you just think about that for a moment. 11 out of the 12 uses in the New Testament are coming from Jesus himself.
00:07:54
Speaker
where he's talking about hell and he's referencing Gehen, or at least that word is behind his use of it. Yeah, and that is so powerful to think about because he is pointing the people there that he is speaking to. He keeps pointing them to that, to think about this place, this terrible, awful,
00:08:11
Speaker
up close, personal, vivid place. Wow, that's just really a powerful picture. I think a powerful picture for us even today, but certainly for those that had seen it, had with their eyes seen that valley. Yeah, so when you have that sort of in the background of what Jesus is talking about when he's describing hell, I mean, here's a couple
00:08:32
Speaker
places where he describes how he speaks of hell as a fiery furnace in Matthew 1342. He speaks of it as a place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth in Luke 13 verse 28. He talks about it as a place of outer darkness in Matthew 25 verse 30.
00:08:47
Speaker
He talks about it as a place where the worm, you know, does not die in Mark chapter 9 verse 48. And then he talks about it as a place of eternal punishment in Matthew chapter 25 verse 46. And then he talks about it as a place of unquenchable fire in Mark chapter 9 verse 43. And then, you know, you just see, again, that imagery and, again, a real-life connection to a place that many of the Jewish people would have been very familiar with. Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
The point there is that clearly that dichotomy that people try to make between a God of the Old Testament and a God of the New Testament is not is not accurate. You see how the picture he's showing there of how okay and now we see also why we don't like to talk about hell.
00:09:31
Speaker
wow you know it's scary it's it's intense and I also that I think of the people you know sometimes we also there are people that do like to talk about how well yeah that's you okay honey that's what I was sorry but like I think about
00:09:50
Speaker
The cringe were the times where I'm walking. You know, we used to we went to school at Moody Bible Institute. Obviously, this is a long time ago now. But and so we were in downtown Chicago. We lived in downtown Chicago for about four years, five years. And I remember walking, you know, down the sidewalks and the people are standing there, the sidewalk preachers, or I guess you would call them. But they were actually kind of scary to me. And I was following Christ.
00:10:20
Speaker
I was scared of them because they were shouting and it was you know You're going to hell and and I don't know I I don't think of like is that the right way do we scare people? We don't want to scare people into accepting Jesus and following Jesus But it is important I don't want to minimize the importance of talking about hell But there has to be a different way and I think that we see that Jesus talks about hell in a different way than that
00:10:50
Speaker
He does and you know, I think that that's you know, just you're sharing that story about being in Chicago and I was you know thinking back to you know, I Guess was last season when we were on our way to the Big House to Michigan Stadium Everybody knows what the I know I just assume that everybody is a is a superfan super fan like I am we were on our way to the stadium on that glorious October Saturday afternoon and
00:11:11
Speaker
When we could still gather in large crowds and Ruth Wolverines on and there were you know, several You know followers of Jesus who were doing just what you were describing. They were there on the corner not far from from the main gates Yeah, they make you like then you question. Oh, I don't want to go to hell Yeah, and I think that that is and I know other people have talked about about that it that
00:11:35
Speaker
that is never the way Jesus uses hell.
Jesus' Teachings on Hell
00:11:38
Speaker
And so I think one of the interesting things that when you read the Gospels is that Jesus is oftentimes talking to the religious when he's talking about hell, that usually when he's talking to the irreligious, it's when Jesus is talking to the irreligious that he does not sort of try to bully them into heaven or to argue them into heaven in that way or scare them into heaven. And so when you read the Gospels, which this is an interesting thing to do,
00:12:04
Speaker
You know, pick a gospel, read through Matthew or through Mark or Luke, and you'll notice that oftentimes Jesus is talking to religious people when he talks about the idea of hell. And so I think that's just really important for us, that on the one hand, we do need to take serious the reality that Jesus, he came and he laid down his life for us, that he is a gracious God who, you know, died for us and he has been raised to new life for us. And there is coming a day when we will stand before God, that God's judgment is real.
00:12:32
Speaker
And so we need to take that serious and it ought to, our love for people and where they're gonna spend eternity, it ought to move us. We ought to be broken over that and we ought to have a real love and we should be compelled to tell other people about Jesus if we really believe in that eternal reality.
00:12:54
Speaker
And yet Jesus doesn't seem to like try to spook people into heaven in that way. And so I think that's just a really good reminder for us as we are talking to friends or to family members or classmates or neighbors, that leading in that way is not the way Jesus did it. And I don't think it's necessarily terribly effective either in the culture that we live. And I think when you look back at different times in history,
00:13:18
Speaker
different movements of God. There were times where that type of preaching or approach may have been more effective, but I think you always, as a good missionary, as a good follower of Jesus trying to reach people with God's love and His grace, you wanna think about what's the most effective way. And so you don't see that in the life of Jesus. And I think as you think about our culture, you wanna do it in a way that takes as many of those barriers out of the way as possible for them to hopefully receive God's love and His grace.
00:13:47
Speaker
with gentleness and humbleness. And that's a work of the Holy Spirit. We don't do that on our own, that the Spirit of God is the one that is drawing people to a saving faith. And through relationships, which is, I think through relationships we can have such an impact. And that brings us back to the question, so we've set the stage here,
00:14:08
Speaker
And what do you say, you know, when your friend asks you, how could a good God, a good loving God send people to hell? So when, when a friend asks that, or when you feel, when you're questioning that yourself,
00:14:27
Speaker
Let's talk about what is underneath that question. Honey, why do you think people... What are you getting at there? What's under all that main question that we're kind of answering today? I think that's really important to get behind the question. We've talked about that when we were in the previous episode when we were talking about how could a good God allow so much suffering and oftentimes
00:14:50
Speaker
you know, behind that question, there's certain misconceptions somebody has or... Well, it helps us answer the question better when we know what's behind it. Yeah. So I think there's behind that question, you know, you want to get behind certain, you know, again, myths that people might believe about, you know, who we are, who God is. And so I think one of them that is really important, just to keep in mind as we're having that conversation or as God gives us opportunities,
00:15:12
Speaker
is I think the myth that people are basically good. And so when somebody's asking that question, part of what they're likely believing is that we're basically good and so therefore deserving of spending forever with God. Now, that's a totally different starting point than what the scriptures teach, right? So Genesis 1, of course, before the fall, is that we were created as image bearers of God, we were created to know God, to
00:15:37
Speaker
experienced life and truth and beauty and goodness, all of those things. And yet Genesis 3 tells us about that fall. And we still bear the image of God, but sin distorts that. And so the Bible begins to talk about, especially in the New Testament, this idea that even though we're still image bearers of God, and we are still loved by Him and created by Him for a purpose and with meaning,
00:15:59
Speaker
that we're born with a sinful nature. And so that's a very different starting point than most people are starting from who don't believe in God, who are not following Jesus. And so sometimes just getting behind that and getting to the conversation that, no, we're not basically
00:16:18
Speaker
good, we're basically bad. We have what the scriptures say, a fallen, sinful human nature. And so our greatest need then is to be saved, to be forgiven. So I think that's part of it. Certainly that's not all of it, but just sort of getting at the core is getting to that question. Then I think the second thing that people are oftentimes wrestling with is they buy into another myth, and that myth is that God can't be just and loving at the same time.
00:16:46
Speaker
Yes, that is that's a very I think that's very prevalent people that they can't reconcile that. Yeah. And so I think, you know, they oftentimes will say, well, I could never reconcile in my mind, you know, a loving God sending somebody to hell. And yet we would never want God to be all love. I mean, just think about in in our life like we would not want prisons to be opened like we believe in justice. I mean, we believe in love.
00:17:12
Speaker
but we also believe in justice. And we would not, you know, we all want justice done. Because there's evil. Because there's evil in the world, there's sin in the world, there's...
00:17:22
Speaker
you know, great wrong that happens from other
God's Justice, Love, and Human Choice
00:17:25
Speaker
people. And so I think part of getting to that answer is also getting, you know, to that myth behind the question, which is that God can't be loving and just. And as we've talked about before, I mean, God is a unity, that he is the sum of all of his attributes. And we oftentimes think that it's impossible for God to get angry, but like God gets angry because of his love. And so what you see in the scriptures
00:17:51
Speaker
is that God's wrath or his love or his justice is a response to what it is that he loves. Yeah. And it totally reminds me of like our kids, you know, when we're really upset about something, maybe that they did, it's because we love them, you know, but yet we can, so that's like a real life example. We can be angry.
00:18:10
Speaker
because we actually have this depth of love for someone. And I feel like that that's the picture I always get when I think of God loving and getting upset over things.
00:18:22
Speaker
I think in the scriptures, the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite is God's anger, his wrath. And so again, every time you see God get angry, it's out of an expression or response to that which he loves. So God is wrathful towards falsehood because he loves truth. God becomes wrathful or angry at impurity because he loves purity.
00:18:49
Speaker
I mean, you just go down the list. And so God's anger and his rightful judgment is really a response out of that which he loves. And so I think just helping people, again, that's not the only answer or the silver bullet answer to that. But again, it's a layer to talking through this with somebody that, again, we are basically
00:19:09
Speaker
you know, sinful, we are in need of a savior, and that it's not inconsistent for God to be loving and just at the same time. Yeah, that's really good.
00:19:21
Speaker
And then lastly, we're talking about what's underneath the question. And so the third and final, I think, sort of layer to this that's behind the question, underneath the question, is that God sends people to hell. Now, there will be followers of Jesus who believe that. There's certain camps within the church that believe that God chooses some to be saved and some to be damned. But I think what you see in the scriptures is that God, he desires for all to come to a saving faith in Jesus.
00:19:49
Speaker
2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9 is one example of that and talks about how God is patient. He's not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. And so the heart of God is that He loves us, that He has made a way for us to be saved and to be forgiven through His Son Jesus, and it's by grace through our faith in Him, that He washes us clean, He gives us a new life, He gives us the hope of everlasting life, that Jesus is judged on our behalf, He goes to the cross,
00:20:16
Speaker
and he's punished for our sins. He stands in our place. And so at the cross, you see both God's justice and his love poured out. And so I think oftentimes though that what's underneath that, I mean, that's the gospel, that's the good news, but what's underneath that is this idea that God sends people to hell. And I think what we need to do is help people understand that it's not so much that God sends people to hell, it's that he gives us what we have chosen over and over and over again for our entire life.
00:20:45
Speaker
that the logical conclusion of somebody rejecting God's love and His grace and His life over and over again is the reality of eternal separation from God. Yeah, and that reminds me of Romans, Romans 1, 18, and 19. I'm going to read that really quick because I think that it's just so powerful. Romans 1, chapter 1, verses 18 and 19 says, the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people.
00:21:15
Speaker
who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made so that people are without excuse." And that scripture, I feel like, sums it up.
Free Will and Separation from God
00:21:40
Speaker
He doesn't send people to hell. We have a choice.
00:21:44
Speaker
I'm glad you brought up Romans 1 because that passage, Paul says, therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts. So if you read that entire passage, I think 18 through 25, one of the things that you notice about God, we oftentimes think of God's wrath as God opening the heavens and just pouring down fire and brimstone.
00:22:05
Speaker
Right. But what Paul's teaching is that God's wrath sometimes is just giving us what we want, giving us what we desire that God gives us or what we think we want. And so God gives us over Paul is saying to our sinful desires. And that's the idea that that's really what most of the church has believed.
00:22:20
Speaker
for most of church history is this idea that God doesn't so much send us to hell as much as we choose. God gives us that free choice. God is pursuing us by his grace and we reject that, we resist that. And so hell then is the freely chosen eternal separation that we experience because for a lifetime we've said no to God, essentially.
00:22:48
Speaker
And so I think, you know, one of the, you know, one of my favorite authors is C.S. Lewis. And, you know, he says it this way. He says that there are only two kinds of people, those who say, thy will be done to God, and those to whom God in the end says, thy will be done. All that are in hell choose it. Without that self choice,
00:23:06
Speaker
it wouldn't be hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will miss it. Now, don't miss that. I mean, that's, you know, he's talking about that idea that God doesn't so much send us to hell as much as he gives us hell. But he also says for those that seriously pursue or look or desire for joy, they won't miss it. And what Lewis is saying is that it's not God's heart for anybody to spend eternity in hell. That the message of
00:23:34
Speaker
The scriptures is that God loves us, that He has been pursuing us. He is pursuing us right now for those that might be listening that are not a follower of Jesus, that God is pursuing you even in this moment. He loves you and He sent His Son Jesus to die for you so that you might experience the abundant life that you were created to experience, that you were made for life and truth and goodness and beauty, intimacy with God, and eternity with God. And that's what God wants for us. That's how much He loves us.
00:24:02
Speaker
And so hell then is just the rejection of that over and over and over again. But it's never God's heart. I love that because it totally reminds me of just my own personal life. Growing up, I was not a Christ follower. I didn't grow up in a Christian home. But I knew there was something more. And I had this desire, like when I hear that quote by C.S. Lewis, this desire for joy, I did. I knew there was something more. I had this desire for hope.
00:24:31
Speaker
and joy, and I sought it out. I mean, honestly, it's a free gift that God offers to us. So I think the overall message here, and really the answer to this question, how could a good and loving God send people to hell is that He doesn't send us to hell. He gives us the choice. We've been given the choice to follow God or not.
00:24:56
Speaker
And I remember last week we were talking on the podcast about politics, which was a weighty topic, but very important to discuss. But the one thing that we came back to when we were talking about that was that our greatest problem
00:25:13
Speaker
is that we are all sinners in need of a Savior. And I think that so pertains here as well to this topic that we need Jesus. We are in need of a Savior and we can freely choose to follow Him.
00:25:31
Speaker
Wow, what a great conversation today. And as you know, if you've been joining us every week, each week we walk away with a key idea. It's that main takeaway summing up what we've talked about.
Conclusion: Hell as a Choice
00:25:43
Speaker
So today's key idea is hell is not where God sends us. Hell is what God gives us when we freely choose to reject his gracious invitation of heaven.
00:25:57
Speaker
We will also be sure to put that key idea in the show notes as well as anything else we referenced at rootlegfaith.com forward slash podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram and honestly, we'd love to see you over there. So at Patrick W. Schwank and at Ruth Schwank is where to be. Or you can also follow us on Facebook.
00:26:18
Speaker
And as if I didn't say it enough already, I mean, we say this every single week, but we have to let you know, we are so thrilled you're joining us and we welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith. If you enjoyed the show today, would you be so kind to leave us a review or rating? That is a tremendous help to us as we spread the word about Root Like Faith and we are so, so grateful for your help in that.