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Episode 61 - Kathy Rain 2: Soothsayer
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GOOD ARTIST.
We're back again to give you a dive so deep on Kathy Rain 2: Soothsayer that MAYBE one of us cries! Who's to tell? Matt played a straight-up action/arcade game and a weird little puzzle game. Roses went to the circus! And what's that? We get to move one of our rankings??
Email us!
mattandroses@gmail.com
- Games Mentioned:
- Ninja Gaiden: Ragebound
- Isoland Pumpkin Town
- Sunset Hills
- Checkers
- Space Quest IV
- Kathy Rain 2: Soothsayer
- Pine Hearts
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Email Invitation
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, Matt. yeah Hey. i've been I've been waiting here for ah like a long time to tell you something. but oh Oh, yeah? Well, yeah, I just, I, here's the thing. I noticed this Zencaster invitation in my email, and it's been sitting here for ding dang three and a half weeks.
00:00:20
Speaker
That's for me. I've been waiting. And so you've just been sitting here for three and a half weeks? Yep. Okay. Well, I mean, have you been at least like...
00:00:31
Speaker
I was recording the whole thing. Okay. My reactions to games I've played, basket meowing, every time my door buzzed, you know, exciting stuff like that. Okay. Well, maybe it's...
Wisconsin State Fair Anecdotes
00:00:48
Speaker
Were we going to record... ah If I had gotten here earlier, would we have recorded a podcast or would I have just sat and listened to...
00:00:56
Speaker
You talk about basket and your door. ah Both. Oh, okay. Yeah, why not both? Anyway, I'm here now. Yeah, I want to tell you a funny thing I overheard about pasta.
00:01:10
Speaker
i know, you're so excited. Okay, so again I went to the Wisconsin State Fair, um which I know I don't live in Wisconsin. I live in Illinois. i live in Chicago. But the our state fair is in Springfield, which is about four hours away.
00:01:26
Speaker
ah I mean, you could do it if you wanted to. You could go drive down there and and stay overnight, whatever. I've done it before. It's fine. I like our state fair. Wisconsin State Fair is only an hour and a half away. So why would I go to Illinois State Fair when I could just go to Wisconsin and eat a bunch of cheese, you know?
00:01:45
Speaker
like That seems like the better thing to do. don't know why you would or wouldn't. Exactly. It's stupid. So um this state fair is popular. I'm talking like crushed in a sardine can, person to person. You're like barely trudging through until it gets late. And I do like, I like staying at carnivals and like fairs really late. I think it's, it's like so fun.
00:02:09
Speaker
And so I'm walking and I'm close to everyone. So I can hear everybody's like conversations. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like this couple behind me. I don't know if they're like on a date. I don't I don't. It doesn't seem like they've been dating very long just due to the nature of this pasta conversation.
00:02:25
Speaker
yeah And I overhear the swans i like, I hope you hear somebody break up over pasta. Over pasta. No, they agreed. It's the weird thing. So I like farafale. I like penne.
00:02:41
Speaker
This woman is like, I just don't like pasta. I just don't like any pasta. Yeah. And the guy's like, yeah, I know what you mean. Like, what?
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah. How does he know what she means? I don't know. And he goes on to say, like, you know, like the the macaroni pastas, like the cold pastas. What's that? And she's like, I know it's so weird. And now they're putting all these like weird chemicals in the pastas.
00:03:11
Speaker
yeah like they're putting weird chemicals in the pasta it's like a um an alex jones rant they're putting weird chemicals in the pastas lizard people are making pastas and he's like yeah the cold pasta is the worst out of all of them because they're like they're putting mayonnaise in it and there's he said like they're putting weird stuff in the mayonnaise They're putting weird stuff in the mayonnaise.
00:03:37
Speaker
They're using mayonnaise to make us all woke. Lizard people. And that, and that, okay. Listen, Wisconsin, I got nothing against you.
00:03:50
Speaker
I mean, I kind of do. I'm from Chicago and Milwaukee's only second test. Okay, so you lied to them. So I lied. Well, listen, I have never seen so many fucking weirdos and bad tattoos and cream puffs in my entire fucking life.
00:04:08
Speaker
They're putting cream puffs in the pasta! In the pasta! Anyway, that's my story and I hope you liked it. I just don't understand what the fuck they were talking about that's a strange that's i got nothing i don't even know how to end this because it's so bizarre i guess i i guess we can go into the music they're putting music in the podcasts
00:04:54
Speaker
Hey everybody and welcome to Save Your Game. i am your host Matt Aukamp and with me is the mayonnaise-y, the pasta-y, the the the the cold and full of cold and full of weird stuff pushing up roses.
00:05:14
Speaker
Hi, I'm full of chemicals. Pasta's getting way too woke.
00:05:21
Speaker
ah RFK's gonna fix the pasta. I've just never heard anyone Robert Floppy Kennedy. Floppy Kennedy. I've just never heard anyone say that they don't like pasta of any kind.
00:05:32
Speaker
And then for the guy to agree, I'm just like, whoa, they're made for each other. That's strange by itself. Yeah, and then to start complaining about all the stuff they're putting... I just love how... Is it... Okay, we're breaking the fourth wall here. We're not supposed to reference the...
00:05:52
Speaker
cold open in the show but i do have to talk more about this because is it it's weird what do he was he just trying to impress her and he would have said anything and um i ah like sounded insane if it wasn't like so he's like oh an and they're putting weird stuff in the mayonnaise well if she had been like um Yeah, and I don't get hot pasta and tomato sauce.
00:06:19
Speaker
He would have been like, yeah, they're and they're putting weird stuff in the tomatoes. Was he just going to say it about anything? I don't know. It seemed earnest because she didn't prompt it. Because all she said was, i don't like I just don't like pasta. So this leads me to believe, with my deduction skills, that they've had other conversations that were kind of weird.
00:06:41
Speaker
Because they're comfortable talking about putting weird shit in the mayonnaise. Like, I don't know. yeah They must have, like, talked. They must have connected, bonded over weird stuff.
00:06:51
Speaker
Here's the last thing I'll say about it. Mayonnaise is all weird shit. That's true. I love mayonnaise. But it is all weird shit. So like, don't know. don't know what they expect from their mayonnaise.
00:07:05
Speaker
Also, you don't have to eat the macaroni salad. I don't. That's just one little part of what pasta could be. It sounds like you had a big adventure this weekend. I feel like you have There's more that you have to tell me about your big adventurous weekend.
00:07:22
Speaker
had a great time in milwaukee so i went i i stayed in milwaukee proper it was only about like eight minutes away from the from the state fair which is in a town called alice a-l-l-i-s alice okay um so i went up there i visited my best friend april um i should say my other best friend i don't want make anyone angry here hi april i know it i have met april Yeah, April's great. We had dinner.
00:07:51
Speaker
um And then where I stayed, it's called the Brumder Mansion. Yes, Brumder. No, du no i was also i was also very skeptical. It's called the Brumder Mansion. is that named Is that somebody's last name?
00:08:06
Speaker
It is. I'm Bill Brumder. Bill Brumder Esquire. um And it's one of these like you know old mansions that's decked out with all this cool... It's a bed and breakfast, but it doesn't look like a weird bed and breakfast. It looks like a mansion.
00:08:23
Speaker
but And my room was a suite. It had two bedrooms. It had ah hot tub in one of the bedrooms. Have you been to ah a bed and breakfast that wasn't in a mansion? I've never been to one.
00:08:37
Speaker
Okay, I've been to two bed and breakfasts. Okay. Neither of them were as weird as I would have thought they were, which is why I went to a second one. Yeah. um But... They were both in mansions. So I i do wonder, are all bed and breakfasts in mansions?
00:08:52
Speaker
But, okay. All right. Continue. Yeah. This was not weird. There were not Victorian dolls everywhere. It was very clean. And there was cookies outside my door. And they didn't make you hang out with them or anything?
00:09:03
Speaker
No. Of course. Of course not. And, um you know, they gave a little bit of history on it. And apparently, this was this building was owned by Al Capone. And it used to be a speakeasy and a brothel at like a gentleman's club.
00:09:18
Speaker
What people don't realize is that his full name was Al Capone Brumder.
00:09:26
Speaker
Good old Al Brumder, you know? Good old ACB. And like you can tell. AC Brumder. but Here's my friend AC Brumder.
00:09:38
Speaker
You could tell that Capone had been there. Oh, because there were dead bodies all around. Yeah, because there were dead bodies and like money flying everywhere. ah it it just had that appearance. It had that true to the period like appearance.
00:09:51
Speaker
ah But yeah, he came to own this place after the Brumders sold it. And it was so cool. It was way more interesting than staying at a hotel a motel or on someone's couch. It really cool. Holiday Inn.
00:10:07
Speaker
And yeah, Holiday Inn. And the then I went to the fair. i spent ah one night at the fair and one day at the fair. And it was so fun. didn't realize that, like, yes, I understand that cheese curds are, cheese is big. It's the dairy state.
00:10:24
Speaker
But also, cream puffs. they they're They're, okay, there's a whole building dedicated to the process of making cream puffs. I'm not kidding.
00:10:35
Speaker
This is our cream puff building. Yeah. Okay. I think it was in the dairy building. Yeah. The dairy building. And I went to the exposition center. I saw who won like the best of, like who won prettiest cow.
00:10:47
Speaker
I don't know what constitutes that. I really don't. Prettiest cow. Best in division. Staff favorite. Staff favorite cow. Which cow turns us on the most?
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Sexiest cow. Sexiest cow. There was a really cool, like... Kilf. Kilf? What is kilf? Oh, my God.
00:11:13
Speaker
Sorry. I'm really sorry about that one. I am not. i've out Anyway. That one I'm really sorry about. um There was a circus. And if you guys know me, you know, I fucking love a circus.
00:11:24
Speaker
I love circuses and adventure games. I love circuses in real life. like carnivals. I like midways. It provided all of that. And there's this really cool like dog like ah they had like dogs there all day for like dog training.
00:11:39
Speaker
And when I say dog training, what I really meant is these dogs think that they're playing, but we're really actually timing them.
00:11:49
Speaker
They just think they're getting some energy out and having a real good time. But yeah there's like a dock diving competition where like um their trainers would throw ah a fun toy into a little pool area and they would just like soar into the air and retrieve the toy for you.
00:12:05
Speaker
um So it it's like a bragging rights is like my dog plays better than. Yeah, exactly. And then like you've all seen probably agility tests. They're cut. They show them in dog shows where they weave through the poles and hop over little hurdles and stuff like that. And sure. Yeah.
00:12:22
Speaker
Some of these dogs were chaotic because they're actually these are all people's like beloved pets. john And they're you know, they're just having good time. And, you know, they they are trained. They're amazingly trained. But like.
00:12:35
Speaker
They're just like so chaotic. ah One went through the weave poles like backwards. And the trainer just started cracking up. It's like, well. ah So they don't take this that seriously. It's not it's really not. No, there was a winner.
00:12:52
Speaker
There are always winners in their divisions and stuff. ah But it's not. No, it's not that serious. Nobody was upset that they didn't do well because they're dogs. Like we they're doggies. Like how can you be upset at them? They're just being dogs.
00:13:05
Speaker
Last thing I'll say, I went on a thrill ride. um A little fun fact about me is that I love thrill rides that are extremely fast and that go around and around and like spin, you things that give me whiplash.
00:13:20
Speaker
Okay. All right. I went on something called techno power. Techno power. Which think you texted me about this and you would. It it was always full caps.
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, just techno power. Techno power. um It had the ugliest backdrop I've ever seen. And that's saying something for like a fair ride. like had all these DJs, like these tech techno DJ faces, but they're all like stretched out because they're painted on on multiple panels.
00:13:51
Speaker
okay So imagine like the ride, like the scrambler, but imagine you are being lifted up and whipped around at like 90 degrees, sometimes even higher than 90. Like you could fall out and you're going fast and in a circle and there's techno music like pumping in the background.
00:14:10
Speaker
It was great. I loved it. And I also went for the first time on a, it's a ride called the crazy mouse, which It is a crazy mouse. It's like a car. It's like a circular cart that spins and also is a roller coaster. So it's a roller coaster that spins all the way around like a tilt-a-whirl and you're in like a cart.
00:14:30
Speaker
I love it. um And I just I love going fast. Fast is like my favorite thing ever. um I did not eat anything unusual. Sad to report that I had some fried mushrooms and Ooh, yum.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, I love fried. Dude, I love fried vegetables.
Excitement for Local Food Festivals
00:14:48
Speaker
And cheese curds? I did not have any. What the fuck? Dude, I live so close to Wisconsin. I don't need... you're always yeah drowning in cheese curds. Yeah, I don't need cheese curds.
00:14:59
Speaker
I live near Kennett Square, which is where the majority of, i think, the world, but at least the country, gets most of their mushrooms. Okay.
00:15:11
Speaker
And... They have a mushroom festival. Nice. Every year. And fried mushrooms and cheese curds is like the big, the reason to go to the mushroom festival. What is that? Because want to go because I love mushrooms. not even kidding.
00:15:27
Speaker
I love mushrooms. i I had ordered from this new cafe and they were out of like mushroom tacos. That's what I wanted was mushroom tacos. Yeah. Yeah. um It's just a it's just a ah vegan type of taco, but I love mushrooms. I was so excited.
00:15:42
Speaker
And I get my order and there's a note in there and it says, I'm so sorry. We're out of mushrooms, but here's a cookie instead. And I was angry. i was angry at a cookie.
00:15:53
Speaker
ah You didn't want. Don't give me a cookie. I would love a mushroom, though. I don't want this dum-dum cookie. I want my mushrooms. so That's okay. So the next mushroom festival.
00:16:05
Speaker
is in on September 6th and 7th. Oh my god, it's coming up! The Mushroom Fest! It's a little too close for what I was going to say. i was like, what if we did a Savior Game meetup at the Mushroom Festival? That's so funny! Oh my gosh, let's gauge interest. It's come it's coming up!
00:16:23
Speaker
It's coming up soon. i think it's too close. I think it's too close to do something that stupid. I still think I should go to the Mushroom Festival. yeah Yeah, come on come to Mushroom Festival. Can i buy, like, produce?
00:16:35
Speaker
As long as the produce is mushrooms. No, I think it's... That's It's really just mushrooms. Most of it is, you know, fairs and booths and there's a... ah There's like ah ah a cooking contest. There's a fried mushroom eating contest. Oh my gosh.
00:16:54
Speaker
There are tents where they show you the process of growing mushrooms. Amazing. But mostly it's just, you know, what any festival would be. It's, you know, they close down the streets and yeah they have bands playing and they have a bunch of food stalls and ah local...
00:17:17
Speaker
um vendors selling their wares. I love shit like that. Like for real. I love it. Okay. I'll come to the Wisconsin state fair next year and we'll do a meet.
00:17:28
Speaker
2026. Let's do two meetups to back. Yes. in twenty twenty six let's do two meetups back to back yes With our fans. We'll do a at one at the Wisconsin State Fair. Come find us. One on East Coast. One on Mid... Yeah.
00:17:41
Speaker
Then we'll do one at the Kennett Square Mushroom Festival. Come find us. Yeah, come find us. Nobody wanted to go on Technopower with me. So if y'all want to go on Technopower with me, it's all right. It's I'm your girl.
00:17:53
Speaker
If you we forget, you guys have to email us mattandrosesatgmail.com and remind us closer this time next year. closer to this time next year You guys, remember, you guys are doing a meetup at the Wisconsin State Fair.
00:18:10
Speaker
Remember, Roses wants to go on Technopower. What have you been riding? Is it Technopower? No, what have you been playing? i Oh, okay. All right. Playing.
00:18:22
Speaker
Phew. I thought you were asking me about my new relationship and I was about I was getting very sweaty.
Video Games Discussion: Ninja Gaiden and Pumpkin Town
00:18:27
Speaker
Who have you been, who have you been writing? Who have you been writing lately? Oh my God. Cut this. No, you don't have to.
00:18:35
Speaker
and yeah You know, I have been playing ah couple things. Let's see. what Here's what I'll talk about. I'll touch on one thing, and then I'll talk about another thing. ah The one thing that I've been playing just this past week that is really fucking fun, and it's not an adventure game, and there's basically no story, but it rules. It is um the new Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden Ragebound. Okay. Okay.
00:19:05
Speaker
And it is just a a pixel art 2D platformer. Classic. ah And it fucking rules. It's high octane. It's super fun. It's very fluid. It's um not as punishingly difficult as, like, the Ninja Gaidans you remember as a kid. oh yeah.
00:19:25
Speaker
Those are tough and games. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just having a fucking blast with it, dude. ah Climbing on walls and... throwing ninja stars and stabbing folks ninja guy den so cool didn't even know there was there was gonna be a new one love it yeah listen i love it when games just come out like there's no it's a risk right like there's no advert for it it just like shocks and surprises you and i kind of i mean monkey island did that a return mcnalan to that and it's just like it's so fun i just really like it
00:20:00
Speaker
All right, but here's ah a game that I played beginning to end recently. um And it's called Pumpkin Town, iso or Isoland Pumpkin Town. i I don't know which one comes first and which one comes first. There is a loose crank in it.
00:20:18
Speaker
Oh, no. Oh, no. I need to do a video of like, top 10 loose cranks.
00:20:28
Speaker
You've got to feature me on this video. That was my nickname in high school. Loose Crank. I would feature you. Absolutely. That's still my name. That's still his name.
00:20:40
Speaker
Still people call me Loose Crank. So... so I don't know if you've played any of the cotton ah any of the cotton game games.
00:20:50
Speaker
I have not, but I know of them because i accidentally bought you one for your birthday because it was on – it was Reviver and it was on your wish list. I'm like, this looks cool. and like I was telling you know Matt off off recording that I don't just go to people's wish lists and buy stuff.
00:21:07
Speaker
I also have to like it. I have to like how it looks. and that's and I'm like, yeah, I like how this looks. Yeah, so and Cotton Game, i don't know.
00:21:19
Speaker
They have, a lot of these games have the flavor. It's a Chinese developer. And a lot of these games have the flavor of mobile sort of that escape room style puzzle game, right? Where you're going around, there's clues written on the walls and there's, you go, you pick up inventory and every inventory item has basically one use and And there's fetch quests, but there's also, it's also a lot of intricate mini game style puzzles.
00:21:51
Speaker
Mr. Pumpkin was the earliest of their games, and it was a little bit more like a point and click adventure, but again, very, very simple.
00:22:03
Speaker
um And then the Isoland game started. They all take place, I think, in this sort of same universe. If there's a story, it is impossible to discern what it is. But he he just packs his games full of ah literary references and references to philosophy and references to
Kathy Rain Game Series Analysis
00:22:19
Speaker
art. um So there's there's a lot of times puzzles will have some metaphorical meaning. And 90% of the time, you won't be able to really figure out what it is because it's really obtuse.
00:22:31
Speaker
um But recently, um they've been getting into games that have more of a I say recently, but ah well I'll talk about it. um Especially recently, they've been getting into games that have more of a complex feel to them, right? ah There was a game that came out.
00:22:50
Speaker
Last year called Sunset Hills. That is a really beautiful kind of just regular old adventure game. It's a little bit clunkier and more simple than say Wajradi game.
00:23:06
Speaker
um But it's really, and you can tell that it's a cotton game when you're playing it. You can tell that it it has the same sort of puzzle sensibilities, but there is a story and the art is like, they took their time and with the art, whereas the Isoland games and Mr. Pumpkin games are kind of maybe a little rudimentary.
00:23:25
Speaker
Maybe. They're not not detailed, but they are very stylized and they look... yes a ah Kid-like, but intentionally. So you know that right does take talent to do a style like this, but you're you're right. It's not going to be as detailed as like the game we'll be discussing today or heavily heavily pixelated you know games.
00:23:49
Speaker
It's just, if you don't know these games, they're worth taking a look at. I think you'll know by looking at them whether they're your type of game or not, to be honest. Yeah, think so too. ah You can tell pretty much what they are by looking at them.
00:24:01
Speaker
But that all to say i played Iso Land Pumpkin Town it is just very much like an Iso Land game I got incredibly stuck at one point which always happens because again The games are, there's some very difficult logic puzzles and some, most of it is very obtuse.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah. And metaphorical. So there's, there will always be some puzzle where you're just like, I don't fucking know. I don't know. I can't possibly know this.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yeah. And that happened ah in Pumpkin Town. But if you like the Isoland games, it was a very good installment. So. Excellent. That's what I played.
00:24:42
Speaker
But we've also been playing something else. I can't imagine what. That we'll be talking about today. I'm doing that thing again where I'm keeping it a secret and I don't know why because it's in the title.
00:24:53
Speaker
It's checkers. We've been playing checkers. We've been playing online checkers. Yeah. and the story in this game is crazy.
00:25:06
Speaker
ah That reminds me what you said there reminds me of this thing that happens in Space Quest 4 where you find like a bargain bin of games that just don't they just didn't go anywhere.
00:25:17
Speaker
And one of them is checkerboard set, like checkerboard construction set. And that's all you do. And I just i remember thinking it was so funny. And the ah the tagline is like, Phil Fudge does it again in checker construction set.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah. Put down oppositely colored checkers in any way you want to, as long as they're opposite.
00:25:44
Speaker
But yeah, we're talking about Kathy Rain, too. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah, I can talk about that. Sure. We can talk about that. I just, I got to take some notes real quick. What, right now? Oh, God. Yeah, I didn't...
00:25:56
Speaker
I wasn't prepared for this. You didn't tell me. yes All right. Are you you thinking get your notes done in the time that ah the music or which which we need to generate get your generator? Get your generator. I'm just going to call it Kathy Rainer Reno because I'm so busy writing these notes.
00:26:10
Speaker
All right. we'll We'll be back with notes.
00:26:28
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to Save Your Game. I'm one of your hosts. I was going to say co-host again. That just doesn't sound right. Yeah, because co-host always sounds like, and it's not, but it sounds lesser, right? It does.
00:26:43
Speaker
i don't know why. But it's We are co-hosts. We are co-hosts. co-host this show. why why should we be ashamed My brain likes short circuits. I don't know. We need to end the stigma. Let's it.
00:26:55
Speaker
Raise our co-host flag high. We are co-hosts. We are co-hosts. I am one of your co-hosts. Pushing up roses with me as as always, Matt Aukamp. Hey, I'm a co-host.
00:27:07
Speaker
So did you get your notes in order? ah Yeah, but then ah they fell out of a window and into a big fire. So I'm just going to have to win it.
00:27:19
Speaker
I will save them for you. This is a thing. People don't know. i live ah in a 40 story building above a giant fire.
00:27:33
Speaker
yeah so i want to make that into an adventure game setting like so bad. Like somebody lives in a building and there's just like this perpetual fire going on and that's it. It's contained.
00:27:45
Speaker
But it's there. Yeah, it's just there's a fire. It's constantly going. You're you're solving puzzles all the way down. shit. But you one thing you constantly have to deal with on each forty forty each of the 40 floors is that there's a never-ending fire. Never-ending fire.
00:28:03
Speaker
I don't even think it's contained. i think that's part of the challenge is that sometimes it shoots up the building and then you have to deal with the fire. And then you can get back to solving, i don't know, your like ah best friend's murder or whatever.
00:28:18
Speaker
All those loose cranks everywhere. your but hurt her we got to Everybody get her, get, get to your crank stations and we'll crank this fire down together.
00:28:29
Speaker
We all have to have one crank in our hand. They all have to be in the crank holes at the same time. And if we tie it wrong, we start all over again. and We got to and then you just crank down the fire every, every couple hours. And that's how you keep it controlled.
00:28:46
Speaker
ah But anyway, this has nothing to do with the game that we're talking about, which is... That's all I had in my notes, so... Oh, boy.
00:28:56
Speaker
Well, I guess I'll do the heavy lifting on this one. ah Kathy Rain 2 Soothsayer, which I want to say also kind of crept up on me. As I kind of mentioned ah earlier, I said I kind of like games that don't have a lot of marketing, that they kind of just surprise you, which is very risky.
00:29:15
Speaker
um You would never see that in a triple A title. um They have deadlines and marketing deadlines and, and all this stuff, but indie games do it sometimes. And Kathy rain too, just kind of crept up on me.
00:29:28
Speaker
It had been almost 10 years about nine, I guess. Yeah. A little over nine years since the first Kathy rain. Yeah. And I thought it was solid. it's It's interesting. So, Kathy Rain, number one, was published by Raw Fury.
00:29:45
Speaker
And I remember they did a bunch of interviews around that time about how the game, at least at first, wasn't profitable. Right. But they had a lot of faith in ah Joel Stoff Hasto.
00:30:00
Speaker
um I know I'm butchering that name. but he's the developer of Kathy rain. And he was, like if yeah he was a one man studio at that time. Yes. i met I met him at Pat oh and I played the demo for Kathy rain one. And I was thrilled with it. wow Yeah. I was one of the first people to have played that demo.
00:30:19
Speaker
And I'm like, that's yeah amazing. Absolutely. i am very excited about this. So they even said at the time, we are going to keep funding this guy and his studio because what they said was, this is a game that needs to exist.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah. They're like, there's more metrics to judge a game by than how much money it makes. And we are, we believe in Kathy rain. um So I don't know if he was developing it the entire time. I know he has like, he's had jobs in other working on other games. Sure.
00:30:55
Speaker
So maybe Kathy Rayne is just his sort of passion project in the background, and that's why it took ten or nine years. Sure. I... Yeah, I'm really impressed with what he created. Oh, I'm so impressed.
00:31:07
Speaker
I'm so impressed. I have criticisms on it, but that's because I am a game critic. I will always... yeah Find something to that. That's going to make it better or that could be better because that's art. I think we've, we've had this discussion. That's art. That's what it is.
00:31:21
Speaker
But man, was thrilled when I saw the, the trailers for this. Thrilled. Critiquing art is a compliment to art because you are taking it seriously.
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah. And I do take, I do take it seriously, especially. and even Even if you hate somebody's stuff, you are taking seriously their craft.
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah. And I really liked Kathy Rain 1 because it gave me Gabriel Knight vibes. And to be perfectly frank, Gabriel Knight was a pretty unique type of game.
00:31:57
Speaker
Structure, story-wise, weren't seeing a lot of that in adventure games. so It just felt very unique. And to bring kind of a structure like that back and have people be interested in it, I think is a great feat.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah, there was a lot of, i mean... People think of or people thought of, it especially people outside of the adventure game world. We are a little too enmeshed in it.
00:32:23
Speaker
um Sure. people Normal people, I think, look at adventure games as a or for a long time did as a funny genre.
00:32:34
Speaker
Sure. Not exactly comedy, but funny. Yeah. Yeah. Like a silly like, oh, those are those silly games like Day of the Tentacle. and Or just or just like high fantasy.
00:32:45
Speaker
Because like, let's let's look at it even further back, starting with like King's Quest, a lot of high fantasy ah adventure games happened. And King's Quest games were silly.
00:32:58
Speaker
And Quest for Glory games were silly. Quest for Glory games were more silly, definitely. yeah Yeah. So I think Gabriel Knight, like, don't know, like The Dig or um even Broken Sword, right? Sure. These were deviation. And um ah Beneath a Steel Sky, these were deviations from the formula.
00:33:23
Speaker
Gabriel Knight was a thriller. Just hate full on was a thriller and and written by an author, by an author who writes thrillers, Jane Jensen. So yeah, it is unique.
00:33:34
Speaker
And at this point, We've seen as many, if not more, serious point-and-click games than goofy ones. Yeah. But it's still, it's still nice to see a game that is, I'd say, following the Gabriel Knight formula fairly faithfully.
00:33:57
Speaker
Very faithfully. And like, I want to make it clear, i am very okay with that. I like literary parody. ah ah Romeo and Juliet is literary parody. um I studied parody actually when I was in college because I was a fiction writing major and I had to write one-to-one parody on the, on the penal colony by Franz Kafka.
00:34:19
Speaker
And when you're writing a one-to-one, so if Franz Kafka has um a paragraph with this many sentences, I also need to have a paragraph with this many sentences. It's hard. It's actually really, really hard. So this isn't like super one-to-one, but in tone and structure, i think it is.
00:34:36
Speaker
And even in in characters, but am fine with that. It is not copying. It's not plagiarism. It's just very faithful and it's really good. They did a really good job. Yeah.
00:34:49
Speaker
I think before we get too deep into Kathy Rain 2, we should just go over briefly what happened in Kathy Rain 1. Yeah, go for it. Because i am yeah I'm having a hard time remembering. it was I did even a video on it, but that was nine years ago.
00:35:03
Speaker
ah Yeah. So you're a college student. And your roommate is this girl named Eileen, who is this sort of intrepid. I think she's probably a journalism student. I don't know if they say. think she is. But she a journalist eventually. So I think even if it's, whether it's retconned or not, she's a journalism student.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah. And she... and she finds an article that your grandfather had died and to you know your family who you've been estranged from you go to your grandfather's funeral you meet your grandmother um it leads you to sort of discovering that these circumstances of your grandfather's death are suspicious well i'll say this his death is not suspicious But the catatonic state he's been in for 15 years is suspicious.
00:35:57
Speaker
And so you start looking into that, which leads you on this... sort of detective chase where where you're kind of following a creepy church that turned into ah sort of drug cult based around this, um this flower called the red scythe that causes hallucinations.
00:36:23
Speaker
Yeah. um And has been somehow a lot of people in this town have been either going insane or disappearing. And it is either related to this flower or related to this series of lights that happen in the woods, ultimately you end up finding that there is this supernatural, the Red Scythe is a gateway to this supernatural realm called the Malleable.
00:36:52
Speaker
And there's a man in the Malleable called the Crimson One, whose motivations I'm not entirely sure what they are. its it The motivations almost sound like a very Cthulhu type thing. Like they're there' in communication with the old gods.
00:37:10
Speaker
And now they think that maybe they can be a part of that. and yeah It seems like a power thing. Most cults are. i do finally meet one of the old gods in... um Kathy rang two and we fought and it's pretty much confirmed that the old gods want nothing to do with what these people have been doing with with the cults.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so in the first one, it is a cult that they have linked the crimson one to Jesus Christ and they've linked these ah strange light formations to the Holy Trinity and they believe that they can bring the Crimson One to Earth and, I don't know, I guess create some sort of rapturous event. i't that's Again, that's the part that's not entirely clear to me. What is the end goal?
00:38:00
Speaker
But it is, they do have this very religious faith in it. So the the story ends with you visiting the malleable, and the malleable will take the traumas of your past and make them sort of manifest, or the psychological things that are Torturing you, rather.
00:38:20
Speaker
And make them manifest. And so you end up having to confront that. Your dad ah left you and your mom when you were young. Joined a biker gang.
00:38:30
Speaker
Ended up running away to Mexico and starting a new family. Your mom kind of went insane. and yeah had some and her her it seems like paranoid delusions were focused on your grandparents so she took you from your grandparents seems to be an abusive mother to you and yeah you kind of raised yourself because she was incapable of raising you so you thought your grandparents abandoned you you know your dad abandoned you
00:39:02
Speaker
Your mom is in in a psychiatric facility. So you feel guilty about having put her there, but you also feel resentful because she wasn't a mother to you.
00:39:14
Speaker
Right. ah and you're struggling with an abortion you had. Yeah. So the first game is very much about confronting your grief rather than hiding from it.
00:39:28
Speaker
Right. um Because Kathy Raines, she ran away from her family and she doesn't and um she doesn't visit her mom and she doesn't think about the abortion, right? Like she tries to push it all out of her head. And this has made her confront the fact that her grandparents tried to adopt her.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah. All the way up till the time she was an adult. um She shouldn't have been running from her grandparents. They wanted to be in her life. Yeah. And she had to face the fact that whether...
00:39:59
Speaker
her mom is conscious or of it or not, she's she can't be blamed for putting her mom in the facility. And it's interesting. The abortion is more up to you as a player because you have a bunch of different options.
00:40:15
Speaker
Or just one dialogue option. But it's just about how you feel about abortion. you can How you personally feel? Okay. Exactly. You can either regret it or say you've done nothing wrong. or And there's a bunch of different flavors of that regret.
00:40:27
Speaker
Sure, sure. I regret that it happened. I wish I hadn't done it. Or i I forget what the kind of the point behind the thing. fourth one is but the first one what i chose is i did nothing wrong yeah yeah that's probably what i chose as well if but if i wanted to give her a little more like flavor or a a little little more realism because i think that people do struggle with choices they've made whether it's from societal guilt or you know whatever might have chose something like more in the middle i'm not really i don't really remember
00:41:00
Speaker
um But yeah, I feel like that that's almost like a side thought where really the the main points were the grief about the life she didn't really have. Yeah, right.
00:41:11
Speaker
That she she grew up without a father and she grew up without her grandparents. Without mother, really, too. And without a mother. yeah And she had this other opportunity, I guess, to have a different life, to be a mother and chose not to.
00:41:27
Speaker
um And whether or not that's something to regret it's still like you said another life she could have had yeah yeah it's all tied there is there is a type of grief that i think even if you don't think there's anything wrong with abortion as i don't yeah i don't either but i could see but i've definitely had friends who have felt the grief from it because it's still it's still another life that you didn't necessarily have it doesn't mean you did something wrong you know exactly
00:42:02
Speaker
It's you've made a choice about something. You've made a very definite choice about a path. Yeah. It's complicated. That's why I don't like pro-lifers because they act like it's not complicated. And it is.
00:42:14
Speaker
It's very hard and it's complicated. Attack you at the most vulnerable place in your life by standing outside of Planned Parenthood clinics and...
00:42:27
Speaker
yeah Anyway, if you want to win hearts and minds, maybe don't do it right at the most vulnerable part of somebody's life when they are at their absolute lowest.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, maybe don't do that. That is what we call predation. Yeah, don't be doing that, folks. um And speaking of predation,
00:42:51
Speaker
that is sort of, that's one of the themes of... Both Kathy Rains is the way that um people with these zealots with fanatical beliefs prey on people at their weakest moments.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Not, again, yeah this this isn't to say this is true of all faithful people. I don't want yeah anyone to away thinking that's what I'm saying. do think there is a big difference between ah having faith, having a religion, and a fucking cult.
00:43:22
Speaker
And I love cult stuff. i In my spare time, man, I'm looking up cults. There's something wrong with me. yeah I think, and in Kathy Rain, I think they make that clear, too. They do.
00:43:34
Speaker
You learn at one point there is a deacon was... was He's one of the victims of the soothsayer. We'll get into it real soon. um yeah And he was trying to help somebody he thought was in crisis.
00:43:46
Speaker
Right. um Turns out she was manipulating him. But it is... There is a way to help somebody who's in crisis without... preying on them.
00:43:57
Speaker
ah But both games are about some are about, you know, people doing the opposite of that. Yeah. I think even more so ah for Kathy, it's gone from like her personal story now is that it seems like in the last few years,
00:44:14
Speaker
not a few years but yeah because 1998 this game takes place just so you guys know in 1998 the previous game took place in 1995 so correct three years have passed and it seems now that what she's dealing with is that she's become maybe not a great person in these last few years she's kind of dealing with the fact that she's mistreated eileen which was her friend and roommate from the last game she's mistreated a guy who is who is really into her and is not reliable and and now we're kind of dealing with those with those demons as we go through this game yeah it's funny because it feels like we're gonna do the deep dive before we do the regular dive but i'm good with that i'm fine because you know i think it is you know kathy rain is so much about her grief
00:45:04
Speaker
And Kathy Rain 2 is about, yeah, her manipulation, the way she yeah uses people um and the way she refuses to... Take accountability. Right. There's a difference between depending on somebody and using
Kathy Rain 2: New Mysteries and Themes
00:45:20
Speaker
somebody.
00:45:20
Speaker
There's a difference between ah friendship and a, you know, um who what would you even call it? Like a...
00:45:32
Speaker
um A fair weather friend? I don't know. yeah Yeah, yeah. There's a difference between being friends with somebody and manipulating using somebody, manipulating somebody. For convenience, yeah.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah, and it's clear, for example, that she loves Eileen, her friend. But can't admit that.
00:45:55
Speaker
And can't ask Eileen for help. She can only sort of manipulate Eileen into helping her. Right. She won't ask. She'll just kind of cleverly get the help using more manipulation tactics.
00:46:06
Speaker
And that Yeah, and they address that really directly in the game. Yeah. A moment. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't mind, li maybe I can just give the rundown then. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Let's get let's do let's do the rundown.
00:46:20
Speaker
To start again, three years have passed. You are now 1998. And since then... You have started your own PI operation. You are a PI um in your own office, but things have not been going well.
00:46:33
Speaker
um You haven't had a great case, you know, since since the last case, ah which was, again, three years ago. She's still living in the small town of Cassidy and.
00:46:45
Speaker
It seems that she had a bit of a falling out with Eileen. um And now, again, we are we are to speculate that these things happened off screen within the last three years.
00:46:56
Speaker
So I guess Eileen wanted to be a part of, you know, Kathy Arane's PI operation, but it wasn't working out. I think Kathy fired her. And it seems that Kathy also reports or has ah has ah a work relationship and a friendship with another PI named Lucas, who is older. yeah um It seems like they have worked together to swap information that they get and ah sometimes work together on paper.
00:47:23
Speaker
It's a lot to happen in three years. is. I wonder if they maybe should have said it in like 2001 or something. I know, I know. It's a lot and it's explained very quickly. as ah And again, we are supposed to kind of be on board with that, that these things happened. Here are the new set of characters.
00:47:41
Speaker
But I think... I like that about both games is that they don't, there's no info dump. Sure. either game. There is, you uncover the characters' backgrounds through their interactions with other characters. and Yeah.
00:48:00
Speaker
And, you know, little side comments they make and stuff. it's yeah I think that's really smart storytelling and it's something that I really admire about both of these games. Yeah. And so ah Lucas, who he's not your direct superior, but he is a respected ah PI in your world. it seems like that you were you used to work for him for a little while. was your mentor.
00:48:21
Speaker
And now you have a working relationship and he's almost like a father figure. You can tell that they really care about each other, which would be very pertinent and personal to Kathy. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:33
Speaker
yeah um and he somehow convinces her to look into this new case that's happening and this is your very classic serial killer case uh he's gonna go by the soothsayer and there have been five the victims they're not connected in any way that people can tell uh you know they're not you know for example they're not all women women of a certain age they're not all children they're all different um And so Kathy kind of goes on this, what I would call like a procedural, almost like a law and order type of ah a format to figure out more about the the victims ah so we can find out what's going on. So we can find out more about the soothsayer.
00:49:16
Speaker
At the same time, something new is kind of included in this game introduced. And that is a drug kind of operation and this drug called Pyre.
00:49:27
Speaker
Which I have thoughts on. I feel like this was an interesting part of the game. I was trying to figure out, you know, how Pyre was connected to the killer and what they were using Pyre for.
00:49:40
Speaker
But in the end, I felt like it was never quite explained or what the drugs are really used for. um At least the flower, the red scythe, that is a little bit more explained.
00:49:51
Speaker
Pyre, I don't know if that was just a red herring because that it can be. If it's a procedural, you can have red herring plot lines that maybe don't go anywhere. I think Pyre was the way they were delivering the red scythe to what ended up...
00:50:11
Speaker
All the you almost all the users of Pyre. This is where this is the only thing that's confusing about Pyre to me is um they talk about how there were there are basically two people who are for all intents and purposes who are the soothsayer.
00:50:29
Speaker
Right. Right. um You learn this about halfway through the game. I don't think that's a huge spoiler. Yeah. mate well Maybe we'll spoil it a little more later yeah in this episode. But um they're they tend to give this drug to people that they are going to use as victims.
00:50:53
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. um And the victims are for some supernatural purpose that yeah also is a little bit nebulous. But there's some other people you meet that have taken the drugs and the the drug. And there's some people who took it once and then got killed. And there's some people who seemed to be taking it for a long time. So there are some things about Pyre that I'm not sure about, but what I am sure about is that it is their way of delivering the red scythe to people that in the first game was used to cross over into the malleable. Right.
00:51:29
Speaker
Right. It seems like there's some experimentation here from the, the two people who are the soothsayer. Um,
00:51:39
Speaker
And yeah, you're right. There are thrillers can be this way sometimes, especially when there is a supernatural element to it. yeah. But there for me, there were some things that were a little too nebulous.
00:51:53
Speaker
I thought the malleable was a little nebulous in the last game. And I think that some of the paranormal stuff here can be even more nebulous. like i'm not yeah i think I do want to say this, though. I think it is a tangible paranormal thing.
00:52:06
Speaker
We were kind of speculating on, since there is a drug element, how much of it is hallucination. And that we are solving puzzles in a dreamlike state. Like, let's say the malleable from the first game and end this game are just, we're we solving them in a dreamlike state.
00:52:24
Speaker
Because that happens in adventure games. There's a lot of games where you go into a dream world and it's more metaphorical. I am of the belief that these are tangible and that the paranormal is actually happening.
00:52:35
Speaker
That's my, that's how I interpret and how I play it. So how I'm trying to think of how to say this without spoiling the end of this game. But in the first game, there is a very... You could... There's a very logical read of the first game in which none of the paranormal stuff happened.
00:52:58
Speaker
Yeah. In which it is all um cult activity and drug related, like ah like a mythos that are built around people's hallucinations.
00:53:16
Speaker
And even their final scene takes place in the malleable, but right after you stumble across a field of red scythe.
00:53:28
Speaker
Right. So there is a, you know, Dorothy and the Poppy Fields explanation here where Kathy Rain hallucinated the entire supernatural element that the game ends on.
00:53:44
Speaker
Right. um That same kind of explanation would not be possible in Kathy Rain 2. I agree. Yeah. be And I think because it's not possible that we again would maybe interpret it as tangible in one as well. i Now that we have the sequels connect, you know, that it's connecting.
00:54:04
Speaker
I agree. And I think the reason that I had wanted to bring that up to you was because I wonder if you feel like that robs the first game of something.
00:54:17
Speaker
No, I don't think it does. i think I think it holds the same themes of grief. um And because I had already played it like that, I hadn't even really considered that the drug that it could be in a hallucination.
00:54:32
Speaker
What I think would have more of what I get from these games are, because you you go into the yeah the malleable two times. These games are connected, that the plot lines are connected. um And you end up in the malleable again.
00:54:44
Speaker
And i think part of me considered that the drug, either Pyre or Red Scythe, or that if it is the same thing, it is making you hallucinate, but it's also giving you access that maybe normally you couldn't see. yeah you know Almost maybe like the upside down in Stranger Things. Maybe, again, we talked about Twin Peaks off recording, but yeah, things like things of that nature.
00:55:11
Speaker
I think that is, I think that's right. And i mean, the things that you do in the first game, for example, setting fire to the red scythe and closing off the malleable, have tangible consequences in this game.
00:55:26
Speaker
This is some minor spoilers, I guess. Well, this one's a pretty major spoiler. If you don't want any spoilers, maybe hop ahead a little bit. Yeah. But...
00:55:38
Speaker
When you burn the Red Scythe in the first game, you close off the malleable, and another something that it somehow does is freeze this...
00:55:51
Speaker
ah
00:55:54
Speaker
This... I don't really know what he is. This... avatar of some aspect of the old god maybe not even that mean it like a demon almost like an in and like a mischievous kind of demon counterpart working yeah demon that's not working for the old god a demon that seems to be drawing its power from the old god but it's also trapped yeah so like it's that's what i'm having hard time that's what i'm having a hard time basically but this crimson one
00:56:29
Speaker
as he's called, gets freed. And he becomes a character in this game. he becomes a librarian. Because he's now free of his ah possession, I guess. You know what I mean?
00:56:41
Speaker
The issue is that now there's probably going to be a new one. Because it seems like this this demon uses real people to do his bidding, you know?
00:56:51
Speaker
Yes, which the big... spoiler is that new Crimson One is the priest from the old game, which actually you might know if you watch the post-credits scene in the first game, because a ah the Crimson One walks out.
00:57:13
Speaker
you're you You end that game at the cemetery, saying goodbye to your grandfather again. And the Crimson Man... walks out looking an awful lot in the face. I mean, he's bald now and he's wearing a crimson suit, but has the same sort of beard as the priest.
00:57:32
Speaker
Right. And that's who it ends up being. It's the priest who ran the church in the first game and then ended up hanging himself in his cell at the end. wonder if that, I do wonder if hanging in the cell was super intentional because in obviously in the Catholic religion, if you're a priest, that's not great.
00:57:55
Speaker
Yeah. That's not thing that would normally happen. Yeah. Yeah. Suicide. You can't get into heaven if you commit suicide. Listen, it has since been rescinded. That's not a thing in Catholicism anymore.
00:58:07
Speaker
But I do wonder if it is a call back to that, to the fact that the priest maybe intentionally took his life to get into hell. Because one of the very last things you hear as you see him kind of hanging in the jail cell, it's really dark, is welcome home.
00:58:24
Speaker
from it Oh, yeah. So it I think the malleable is definitely kind of a hell type of a setting. The Crimson One is a demon. Probably why the older god Elder Gods don't want anything to do with it, because it's it is, in all essence, a hell.
00:58:41
Speaker
you know it's It's a hell that can easily victimize people, too. Obviously, it it it goes after Kathy. It makes her question her sanity. And I think that's what a true hell but That is hell.
00:58:54
Speaker
That's what hell would do. So yeah, I think that's very intentional and interesting. And it's a good way to continue the story of the Crimson One and ah have it keep going, you know?
00:59:07
Speaker
Yeah, and while we're in this spoiler section, i do we should say the soothsayer ends up being another person who wants to use the malleable.
00:59:19
Speaker
A little more villainous about it than the priest was in the first game. Both of them did terrible things. But this guy yeah is like, I want to take over the world. the first guy the The priest in the first game was sort of like, I want to enlighten people.
00:59:35
Speaker
Right. Right. so No, these these people had very bad intention. yeah And ah at the end of the first game, you meet basically a doppelganger of of Kathy Rain.
00:59:47
Speaker
ah The other person who ends up being the soothsayer is the burned... but still living doppelganger of Kathy rain, who's now loose in the world after that gateway was closed.
01:00:03
Speaker
um They use the, the phrase Tulpa. but Which is, yeah. I mean, Tulpa, they use that a lot in twin peaks. Oh, do they? Okay. Yeah. It's a, it's an ah old, it's an old Buddhist term. Yeah. That has often been mythologized as like, yeah, a, a,
01:00:26
Speaker
thought form of yourself like a like a doppelganger of certain feelings or emotions that you've had that lives on earth that's not what it really meant in the buddhist religion but that's how it's been mythologized in fiction over the past yeah couple hundred years um Yeah, it it is like ah it. They do look like people, but they're not.
01:00:47
Speaker
It's almost like a copy, kind of like in in Twin Peaks. There was like a copy of I think it was Diane who turned out to be a tulpa. OK. Yeah. So, um yeah. So you find her again in in Kathy Rain 2 and she's the other soothsayer.
01:01:04
Speaker
Right. Or the other part, I guess the other part of the soothsayer. So if we're talking about the metaphor here, you could think of her as a manifestation of Kathy's um
01:01:23
Speaker
bitterness. Yeah. ah About lobe yeah the things that have been done to her in her life, right? Like in... the malleable in the first game, the Topa sort of uses your mother against you and uses your, like, uses all these, uses your father against you.
01:01:41
Speaker
um There's even an implication when she sticks your father on you that maybe your father was abusive to you in a really disturbing way.
01:01:53
Speaker
um he i forget, he says something to you that is
01:01:59
Speaker
I don't remember what it is, but he says something creepy to you. Yeah, it goes hard. That sounds like it's something he said to you before and doesn't fit with the context of the situation. And it makes you think, oh, is that a reference to him abusing Kathy when she was young?
01:02:15
Speaker
um Anyway, so she's using these people against you. Therefore, as a she serves as sort of a metaphor of your bitterness. So if you've destroyed that part of your life.
01:02:30
Speaker
And now what you're living with is the the coping mechanisms that you've had ah be from your grief have been, on I'm so independent.
01:02:43
Speaker
I'm not attached to nobody. and Nobody can tell me what to do and nobody can pin me, hold me down, right? Because she had to raise herself. she Every parental figure in her life ended up being...
01:02:58
Speaker
Ended up letting her down. and yeah So
01:03:04
Speaker
she ends up trying not to be attached to anybody and and and it hurts people. Right. Right. That's what she's dealing with in the second game.
01:03:15
Speaker
So what does the Topa in your mind represent? For me, it represents everything she doesn't like about herself. Okay.
01:03:27
Speaker
Because that Tulpa or again or again, once again, it it does seem to be like a life that you didn't have. Like I could have been a better daughter to mom. Look at how good I am mom and your mom at all.
01:03:42
Speaker
So it's kind of like these lingering feelings of doubt and guilt and all the things that maybe one doesn't like about themselves and their life because.
01:03:53
Speaker
Even though she's a doppelganger, she also has somewhat of a different aesthetic, which I think is interesting. She doesn't have the weird hair that Kathy Rayne does. I think that's such an interesting thing to put in.
01:04:09
Speaker
um i guess are we are we suggesting that the tulpa though is she is seeing the tulpa though this is still tangible to you right yes okay yeah um but i do think it's i think like everything else in the malleable whether or not it's real it is also metaphor there is a metaphor happening here right there like it is a meaning happening yeah yes you are these are manifestations of something in your psyche yeah yeah i I think it's also interesting to point out her mother believes Tulpa is her daughter. Yeah. And Kathy is not.
01:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. Which is. It's sad. Such a fucking rough moment. It is rough. Yeah, it's sad. It's rough. And I do feel for of the realistic way they portray this mother daughter relationship.
01:05:05
Speaker
um Because her mom is obviously still in a psychiatric facility. You do visit her because she has a little bit of a connection to one of the soothsayer victims. So we're able to get a little bit of information that way.
01:05:17
Speaker
And, you know, Kathy thinks she's connecting with her mom, but she's really not. And, you know, her mom goes right back to her old typical, you know, kind of abusive behavior. And it sucks.
01:05:29
Speaker
It's rough because it's realistic, you know. there There is not going to be in this game, which is, again, as we talked about, it's a more serious game. It's a thriller and a procedural. It's not meant to be a funny game.
01:05:42
Speaker
There is not going to be a happy ending here with her mom. And that's the real realism of it, you know? Yeah, I mean, at the end of the game, you how what was your ending with the mom? I i wonder because there are some choices you can make in those final in that those final confrontations.
01:06:01
Speaker
And I wonder there's more than one outcome. I don't know. I think we probably got the same outcome. I convinced the mom that I was the real Kathy.
01:06:12
Speaker
So did i so that I. I convinced her with something like, I'm so stubborn. I would never do that. Kind of like, yeah, I got that stubbornness from you or something. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Then you say you do save her and then she agrees to go back to the facility. The facility. Yeah.
01:06:30
Speaker
Okay. So maybe that is the only ending. I wondered if you picked the wrong dialogue options if she died. And I mean, like that would also be I would understand that as an ending to that character, too.
01:06:41
Speaker
Absolutely. would suck. It would suck. But I would get it. I would get it fanatically. and That's maybe the happiest ending you can get is the mom coming to terms with that this does need to happen.
01:06:53
Speaker
i do need to be in this facility. And that's the safest place that it this is going to be for me. And then you knowing that the the really hard thing about having somebody in your life that deals with really severe mental illness is you know it's not permanent.
01:07:11
Speaker
Right. You know, this is unsaid in the game, but you kind of know she's accepting now. In yeah two weeks when Kathy goes to visit her, is she going to be like, you're not my daughter again? Is she going to be like, get me out of here? Why did, why are you this horrible person locking me up in here?
01:07:30
Speaker
It's. But it's nice to have like those moments of lucidity because moments of lucidity happen all the time. It's this ongoing thing, you know, with mental illness. you have this moment of lucidity and then you go back and then you have it again. and and so it makes a mental illness, right? it It doesn't quite, it doesn't fix itself unless you're, you know, very heavily treated, I should say. Yeah. if if you're If your thoughts and feelings were consistent,
01:07:57
Speaker
Even if they were shitty thoughts and feelings, you still wouldn't, you wouldn't be mentally ill. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I will say. okay. Why don't we, do you have anything else to say that, that requires a spoiler to talk about or do we want to come back out of it?
01:08:10
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I have one more thing to say. And that's. Yes. which I've given some thought to. Now, I think both Kathy Raines are too abrupt in their ending. I think there's too many loose ends. It gets a little nebulous. I understand that you need to have a certain suspension of disbelief for a fantasy game and for paranormal.
01:08:29
Speaker
But that being said, it still needs to be a realistic within the story. You can give me any story you want, but that story still has to make sense, you know, whether it's paranormal or not.
01:08:40
Speaker
ah So to me, there like I said, there were some nebulous questions I had about Pyre, about how we even got to the malleable and and those type of things. However, this is a good ending.
01:08:52
Speaker
So she, major, major, major, major spoiler here, people. um Her peer, Lucas, the older PI, dies.
01:09:02
Speaker
He gets killed by the soothsayer. And in the end of the game, unlike every other adult figure that has let her down or she's felt that has let her down, he was the only one that didn't let her down. Not that he was going to anyway, but he's the only one who left her something to show that he cared.
01:09:24
Speaker
And it even was said that, you know, this P.I. looked at her like a daughter. And I thought that's that's poignant and important. Like everybody else kind of left her out to dry. Right. Her mom can't give her anything. Her dad left her grandparents. You know, they weren't there most of her life, not by choice, but they weren't, you know. Yeah. um And so Lucas was the only thing that ever early person that as a parental figure that gave her something good.
01:09:50
Speaker
And I think she felt that she had somebody to rely on, like, finally, you know. yeah yeah that's wow yeah um holy shit i don't think i had internalized that in that way like there's that there's that moment where um you know okay so her detective agency gets shut down and she gets evicted and so she has to go for the first time ask for help yeah um not manipulate somebody into helping her, not demand somebody help her. She has to ask for help because Eileen is her friend.
01:10:26
Speaker
She has to stay at Eileen's house. um And it's a growth moment for Kathy. um It is her finally learning to embrace connection with another person.
01:10:41
Speaker
And then like you're saying immediately another connection that she was really hesitant about ah connection that she made with Lucas who she was, she was conflicted about how, like she was trying to pretend like she wasn't as close to him as she was.
01:10:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And he, like you said, he comes through for her. Yeah, he comes through for her. Yeah. That's.
01:11:08
Speaker
just a wild one-two punch yeah yeah because okay i was thinking of it more in terms of tropes right um we we talked about this a little again off air we should stop talking about how we talked about so much stuff off air you guys um okay boy um so i was thinking of it mostly in terms of tropes right i was thinking of it in terms of like Oh, yeah, and here's the that trope that we get at the end of certain stories where, oh, and all that met that debt you're in?
01:11:41
Speaker
Well, here's... Somebody died and left you a whole bunch of money, right? because kathy ra It's easy to look at it that way, because it does end abruptly.
01:11:53
Speaker
And Kathy Rain really does employ tropes throughout, right? It employs tropes about detective stories. It employs tropes about um serial killers. It employs tropes about, ah you know... Relationships. Kathy Rain herself is a kind of trope.
01:12:10
Speaker
Sure, sure. um And it employs tropes about paranormal stuff being this reflective thing of your...
01:12:23
Speaker
other things in your life and tropes aren't always bad right they can be a shorthand they can be like a um they could be used as symbols almost right like yeah you as the audience it's a neutral term you can there are bad tropes that don't work and then there are tropes that are classic and that that survive across genres I think that's entirely true. And I mean, using tropes is a like a semiotic act, right? You are you are speaking to a you are speaking to symbols, cultural symbols that people recognize.
01:12:59
Speaker
Yeah. and that just helps you to avoid excessive over explaining. yeah Right. It can be a very powerful thing to use a trope is I guess my point. And because, but because of that,
01:13:16
Speaker
Because I was looking at it as ah as a trope, I wasn't thinking as deeply about it as I should have. And yeah you're entirely right. This an answer, not just to the financial struggle she's been having, but to the emotional struggles that she's been having. That some people, even in the very end, whether you've pushed them away or not, are going to come through for you.
01:13:41
Speaker
Yeah. Not everyone will abandon you. Yeah. Even, yeah, even in death, you know, he still can. And I thought that was sweet. um Again, I still think the end is very abrupt.
01:13:54
Speaker
The end reminds me of Gabriel Knight. don't know if you remember the end of Gabriel Knight, but in the end, the characters are looking over that this kind of mass destruction of the Hanfur. That's it. That's what they're doing. And that's exactly what they do in Cathy Reade. They look over this mass destruction.
01:14:10
Speaker
Yeah. There's a Han IV scene here, right? Yes. yeah it is 100%. You go into an underground cult ah facility where they're trying to do a ritual because and another trope, oh, we solved the mystery just hours before they complete the ritual.
01:14:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it ends very quickly. But I think because of such a sweet sentiment at the end, forgive it a little bit.
01:14:41
Speaker
I forgive yeah Gabriel Knight didn't have that sweet sentiment. He's just like, well, my girlfriend's dead. It's like, oh, OK. All right, dude. No, this was way sweeter. And like, yes, obviously on the surface, it kind of looks like a trope. It looks corny.
01:14:59
Speaker
But I really think there's more to it than that. I think Kathy is learning that she had people in her life that truly loved her. And for the first time, she doesn't feel abandoned by a parent parental figure. Somebody supports her.
01:15:14
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Why don't we come out of spoilers? Okay. And sort of talk about our, what we liked and didn't like about the game and, and,
01:15:25
Speaker
if If I may posit what I
Comparison with Gabriel Knight
01:15:28
Speaker
think we should do. I think that we should play our, what did you call it? Kathy Rainerino? i think we should play some music and come back. And we'll talk about things like puzzles and just our overall opinion on on the gameplay. Because we've not talked about that at all.
01:15:45
Speaker
You're right. You're right. Yeah. Let's do that so that people who um who wanted to skip the spoilers. Yeah. Yeah. all right. Let's do it. Yeah, those people, you all know the story now.
01:15:57
Speaker
now we're going to talk about ah the the gameplay stuff and what we liked. All right, play some Cory Fasorino.
01:16:22
Speaker
Welcome back, people who skipped the spoilers. Yes, yes. I hope you... ah i don't know i don't know where it was going. but i was going to say I hope you enjoyed it, but if you skipped it, then you did it. hope you didn't enjoy it.
01:16:38
Speaker
I hope you were so angry. didn't enjoy skipping our discussion. And you won't even know what made me almost cry.
01:16:45
Speaker
ah so take that, motherfuckers. I think i i hit a chord with Matt. You know what? This is going make you have to go... Play Kathy Rain 2 so that you go back and listen to what almost made Matt cry.
01:16:58
Speaker
I think I also, like, touched on – I have, a like, a vague memory of when we talked to Dave Gilbert. Where he was like, yeah, never thought about that, Roses. I'm like, what is wrong with me? Like, why do have to make everyone sad all the time? Think of things that they – no, no. yeah I think that's – That's a helpful thing. I mean, thinking of new dimensions of art that other people haven't thought of and like art is meant to bring something emotional out of us. So sure I think you helping that is what makes you a good critic.
01:17:28
Speaker
Thank you. And a good artist. I'm an artist. I don't know if you guys knew, but I am also an artist. I create art. I think you're a good artist, but I think it's funny that you just appended a second compliment onto my compliment.
01:17:43
Speaker
Also, here's the other thing you went. Nat, you know me and you know that I do not compliment myself. So let's let this this lovely compliment train ride out, you know? I just thought it was funny. No, I absolutely, you know I think you're a good artist. And so do all our listeners. Email mattandroses.gmail.com and just say, good artist.
01:18:04
Speaker
That's all. That's Good artist. yeah So we know that you listened to this third segment. Just say, good artist. And that you think Rose's is a good artist. Don't, no details. Just the words good artist.
01:18:15
Speaker
You don't have to go into, no, you don't have to be specific with me. I don't care.
01:18:21
Speaker
but yeah, I would, I would like to touch on a few things gameplay wise, because when I played this demo, i forget when, out when we played it, but obviously a handful of months back, I was so impressed and enthralled by the graphics. This is a beautiful game.
01:18:39
Speaker
The graphics are amazing. And going back and playing Kathy rain one, it this is such a step up. Like I thought Kathy rain one looked good. Same. Yeah. Same. Looks fucking amazing. that's fine It's phenomenal.
01:18:52
Speaker
It's still pixel art, but like the, they've, they've leveled up by, you know, by, ah by leaps and bounds.
01:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's just gorgeous. I oh, man, it just made me feel so good and cozy because it is kind of a cozy thriller mystery type of vibe. on The portraits are are wonderful. They now have these kind of dynamic close up shots, these action shots, kind of like think about like Hobbs Barrow.
01:19:24
Speaker
Think about those ugly action shots that were done intentionally. We love Hobbs Barrow. ah These were just gorgeous and added kind of another dimension to the game. So like in terms of art style, it's gorgeous.
01:19:40
Speaker
I was so impressed. It looks so good. And some Kathy rain in her underwear, which was nice. Oh, good. I'm glad that you enjoyed that. no um No, I think ah one of the things that i one of my criticisms very of the demo was that it it looked softer.
01:20:00
Speaker
And I think what I was reacting to was just the art being better. And I think of Kathy Rain as a tough chick, right? Like that's what they want us to think of her as. Like yeah even using the word chick, I think it's like part of, she's a tough biker chick, right? Tough chick.
01:20:17
Speaker
But because of that, Because um the art was a little skilled. Her portrait looks softer than the Kathy Rain of Kathy Rain 1.
01:20:28
Speaker
um So I thought, you know, it it put me in mind of them kind of like pulling... back on some of her toughness which are they didn't they didn't at all she's felt way tougher in this game she shoots shoots people with guns and stuff yeah and the ah we all know that like varying aesthetics you know ah alternative women who change their aesthetic uh it doesn't always look badass i have blonde hair right now you know so ah that doesn't make me any less tough of a person right
01:21:00
Speaker
I think it was that it wasn't it wasn't her aesthetic looked less tough. It was that the portrait looked less tough. And I think there were some lines in the demo that were delivered in a slightly softer way.
01:21:14
Speaker
But that's not how I felt overall. Like, I don't think I didn't either. I liked her character. Yeah. I think three years later, it makes sense. You're always kind of growing. And and even if it was just an art style, ah you might be less tough after college, you know, like you might be a stereotypical tough girl in college. And then you grow up a little bit in the next couple years.
01:21:36
Speaker
How you feel about the gameplay? ah So yeah, you were kind of questioning me off recording. you want to do You wanted to know more about the things that I thought were more one-to-one Gabriel Knight.
01:21:51
Speaker
And so I'm going to bring those up to you guys. And it's also going to explain the gameplay. You're going to get it, if you if you especially if you played Gabriel Knight. So um the first first things first, this is an interrogative game.
01:22:04
Speaker
ah Much like Kathy Arayne you are asking people a lot of questions. You have a notebook, kind of Dagger of Amon Ra style, and you use that notebook to question people. And, um you know, you're you're interrogating people.
01:22:18
Speaker
And so that's very Gabriel Knight-like. ah To me, even the portraits that come up look like they're not exact. Right. But it reminds me of Gabriel Knight ah a little bit.
01:22:32
Speaker
But some of the would say some of the tropes and some of the characters and structure are almost one to one. So in Gabriel Knight, one, we have a character named Moonbeam.
01:22:43
Speaker
She's kind of a new age um clairvoyant. ah I forgot what she calls herself. Oh, a priestess. She calls herself a voodoo priestess. Okay, yeah. um So in this game, we have, it even starts with the same letter. It's Meadow.
01:22:58
Speaker
We have a character named Meadow, who's also New Age Reiki. It's funny. i didn't realize this until I replayed Kathy Rain this week. Mm-hmm.
01:23:09
Speaker
Meadow is mentioned in Kathy Rain 1. Oh, didn't know that. As Eileen's hippie friend that Kathy refuses to talk to. She's like, oh, you should talk to my friend, my my my friend Meadow. She knows about that stuff. And she's like, you have a friend named Meadow. Like, she's like really dismissive of it.
01:23:28
Speaker
okay Okay. Like, I'm good. in this game, we meet Meadow. And it's very much a Moonbeam character. You have that Moonbeam character. You also have your ah religious character. Maybe your overly religious character. In Gabriel Knight, one, it was Lady Casanooga in this game.
01:23:47
Speaker
It's Rachel, a girl woman named Rachel who knew one of the victims, who is ah maybe a little bit hyper, hyper religious. and and And that kind of goes into there is a church in this game. There is a priest that you talk to and meet.
01:24:02
Speaker
um There is what are some of the other one to one things? I mean, the Han for. but OK, we won't talk about that. mention that. We can't talk about that in the non-spoiler area, but there is a Han IV-like situation. Sure.
01:24:17
Speaker
um But also some of the... ah ah Not just the structure of the interrogation, but some of the ah some of the puzzles as well. So you guys might remember the rat-a-drum puzzle from Gabriel Knight, or maybe more notably, the message puzzle on the tomb, which is way too nitpicky for our taste.
01:24:37
Speaker
ah But there is there's kind of... it's It's interesting. There are um analogous puzzles to both in this game.
01:24:49
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, to both. Yeah. um There's certainly a message puzzle that involves a beeper, um ah deciphering puzzle. a hack There's a hacking puzzle.
01:25:01
Speaker
Puzzles that I think are very close to to Gabriel Knight, but especially like the messaging puzzle. Yeah. And I liked that puzzle. I like a good, they're not, they're kind of logic-y, so they're not always my jam, but I like stuff like that. I like, I like getting into the, into the, the situation we're in and, or like sending a message to someone else. I like that.
01:25:25
Speaker
And that's what you do in Gabriel Knight too. You send a message as someone else. um obviously there's a bit of a culty aspect to both games um there's another thing that there's another thing i was going to mention besides the puzzles and i'm i'm now blanking on it i'm sure it'll come back um but that being said of course uh the nightmares the nightmares that kathy has every night this is kind of a day one day two kind of a that's what was gonna say even the day even the the the The chapters being divided by days is a Gabriel Knight thing. Yes.
01:26:03
Speaker
Yeah. And the nightmares that she has every night. um There's one last thing and I'm not going to spoil it. I'm just going to talk about it super vaguely. But in Gabriel Knight 1, you will lose somebody.
01:26:16
Speaker
ah tragically. And ah that's your, that's uncle Wolfgang. He, you know, he unfortunately dies and something very similar happens in Kathy rain. And I won't go into details. We talked about it in the spoiler section, but I'm not going to detail that now.
01:26:34
Speaker
Obviously it's a murder mystery game, but trust me when I say it's a little more one-to-one than you think. Yeah. You know, it's also interesting.
01:26:45
Speaker
Oh, yes, please. i just i just had this thought. ah Gabriel Knight's a bit of a hoe. Remember that? He's a bit of a man slut. He sleeps around and doesn't commit to people.
01:26:57
Speaker
Kathy Rain is the same way. There's actually a character, that ah new character that's introduced. um that you kind of use a little bit and you kind of refuse to get close to. mean, that's super interesting. those and And I want to say this too, again, i think, I don't know if I said this out now, I don't know what I've set off for recording, but I'm okay with it being a parody like this. I think it's great and it's different enough and it has its own unique identity. i don't care.
01:27:24
Speaker
i don't care that it's using these structures at all. She doesn't care at all. She won't even bring it up, actually. I'll fucking care. You can't tell her that she cares. She didn't even mention it. Get the fuck out here. and griev Leave us alone. Don't talk to me or my son ever again.
01:27:43
Speaker
I think, ah yeah. Yeah, there's another thing that I don't know. This could just be in my dumb head.
01:27:54
Speaker
But in...
01:27:57
Speaker
Gabriel Knight. Before, I think, what, the end of Gabriel Knight 2. There's sort of just this very vague question.
01:28:10
Speaker
Is there something romantic between Grace and... I know where you're going. And Gabriel Knight. Oh my god, another peril! It's mostly just very deep subtext, right? like Yes. um There's no, you know...
01:28:27
Speaker
You could be talking to somebody else who played all the Gabriel Knight game or who played Gabriel Knight one. And you could say, there something going on between Gabriel Knight and Grace?
01:28:38
Speaker
Right. And they'd be like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's nothing in the text that supports that. And you'd be like, okay, that's fair. That's fair. I think. But there's another type of person who saw maybe there is something.
01:28:50
Speaker
Yeah. and turned out there was. Yeah.
01:28:55
Speaker
I feel the exact same way between Eileen and Kathy. I think, yeah. I think a lot people do. There's not, there's nothing explicit.
01:29:06
Speaker
Right. So I could, it could be entirely just in my fucking head, but there's something about the way they talk to each other sometimes that I'm like, is there or was there? Did Eileen, like, I almost got this sense my brain went even deeper. I almost got this sense that Eileen wanted something to happen between her and Kathy and Kathy said no at some point.
01:29:33
Speaker
Yeah. Being a commit a phobe. Sure. Or maybe even just straight. Right. Like I don't know. Yeah. yeah i either Yeah. Or not straight, but not having reckoned with her own sexuality yet. Who knows? But I just got this. I got this sense throughout the game.
01:29:50
Speaker
um yeah It's definitely, Yes, it's definitely similar similar in that way. There is that banter there. Eileen is kind of a Grace character and not just in that banter, but she becomes kind of assistant to Kathy, whereas Grace becomes assistant to Gabriel. She's always doing, always doing research for Gabriel and finding new things.
01:30:13
Speaker
And that's kind of Eileen's role as well. She helps you with several things. And there's there's a deep affection there, which could just be friendly. Yeah, it could be. Yep.
01:30:24
Speaker
But they're... Again, they're just these little moments... And little interactions between them. Where like, am I supposed to think that? I think you are at least supposed to question it.
01:30:37
Speaker
Okay. um I would be delighted if it was just like a girl friendship. I think we need more of those. You know, I think. Yeah. I just I love a healthy girl best friend relationship.
01:30:51
Speaker
Awesome. I love any friendship where love is expressed, right? Like I love any friendship that dares to be, um that dares to be ah emotionally vulnerable, right? Like, cause you don't get a lot of those in, in media. You don't get a lot of those in life.
01:31:14
Speaker
um I think you get more of them in media now than ever before. Yeah, definitely. Obviously that's a bigger deal in, male friendships sure that it's like it's a thing that is missing in male friendships more than it's missing in female friendships but um but it's still it is a it is always a thing that yes that I I love And it's, and I mean, female friendships have been written so cattily, you know, in the past. That's true. Women being catty and not liking each other. It's been such a thing for so long.
01:31:47
Speaker
That's why I'm delighted by, it was like, it's either romantic or everyone hates each other. You know what i mean? Like women hate each other or they love each other romantically. competing over a man. Yeah. Yeah.
01:31:58
Speaker
Yeah. So i'm I'm always delighted when I see kind of a best friend situation, you know? Yes. But like, i' and I want to ask you, what did you think of the... I kind of described a little bit of the puzzles.
01:32:12
Speaker
What did you think about them, though? Were they enjoyable to you? Actually, I loved them. I really enjoyed ah figuring out the beeper. I really enjoyed figuring figuring out the hacking.
01:32:22
Speaker
um I enjoyed figuring out... um the details there's a there's a puzzle early on where you have to sort of put together the details you have to take an actual quiz I loved that quiz I love that quiz honestly and you know that's that's a thing that I've come to really really love in video games over the past few years right is this idea of doing actual detective work in a game yeah and that is a thing you have to do and you have to make inferences and then verify them against facts to see if you know if they if you're uh these inferences hold water or not and then you test them by again filling out an actual test which is very funny that's a very jane jensen thing too it's like research in the game like go to the library in game
01:33:20
Speaker
and look up microfiche stuff, and like computer stuff, and you're doing actual research within the game's story. It was fun. I like i liked it. It's not everybody's thing, but I love it.
01:33:33
Speaker
And like i felt like this game not only had just the the sort of cozy point and click, almost fetch quests, like just running around.
01:33:44
Speaker
This person wants this thing and who, you know, whatever. But it had some puzzles that really did strain my brain a little bit. Same. I only got stuck once and I think it was because I had taken like two weeks.
01:33:58
Speaker
Oh, okay. You took some time off and it wasn't. took some time off and came back and I forgot for got ah thing that I had already seen. Right. Yeah. That was the clue to, it was the cigarette puzzle. I i figured out how to.
01:34:13
Speaker
like change the color. Change the color of the cigarette pack. I didn't figure out how to change the scent of the cigarettes because I've forgotten. Right. right There's a clue that it's not just a clue that helps. It's a clue you have to look at. You you can't gather the ingredients until Kathy Ring comments on the clue.
01:34:34
Speaker
Right. It's one of those things where like locked behind that. But I'd forgotten that that clue was there and I'd seen it before it was relevant.
01:34:47
Speaker
And i completely yeah, I played i just played through it. So it's obviously it's stuck with me. so I'm like, OK. Yeah. just Yeah. I'll just go find that clue and see what I see what I can do.
01:34:58
Speaker
Where that clue is, i had i had read everything in those. Yeah. We're being so vague right now. This is going to be annoying to somebody who hasn't played the game. or Yeah. I i had poured over that section. Yeah. you ran you Basically, you you had run into it before. You had seen it before. Exactly. I'd seen it seen it. I'd even logged it in my memory because, again, I had read all of it.
01:35:21
Speaker
Yeah. it left it left in the couple weeks that I took a break so but being beyond that I didn't find anything so hard that I needed like walkthroughs or that I needed you know it was i loved I loved it I loved the puzzles there's also a hint system so hopefully you don't you're not going to need to resort to a walkthrough obviously I have no problem if you do I don't want people getting so stuck that they are irritated you know because how are you going to solve a puzzle when you're irritated like it's
01:35:52
Speaker
Right, right.
Critique on Kathy Rain Series
01:35:55
Speaker
What did you think about the characters of this game? They were a little less developed than the characters in Kathy Rain 1.
01:36:03
Speaker
Agreed. That's my main criticism of this game is that because it is a faster paced procedural, you're not going back to familiarize yourself with these characters as much as you do in Kathy Rain 1 or Gabriel Knight.
01:36:17
Speaker
We talk to Lady Casanooga all the time and and you know Detective Mosley. We talk to them all the time. They became routine characters. um which I like in a game. This is a little different in that some of these characters you kind of kind of bond with, right?
01:36:32
Speaker
And then you never see them again. was like, oh. The games are about the same length. Kathy Rain 2 is maybe an hour longer or so than Kathy Rain 1. But... but you But it has like twice the amount of characters.
01:36:48
Speaker
Yeah. and so That's a lot. it's So the result of that is you just spend less time with them. You go back to each character. like Like there is a moment.
01:36:59
Speaker
There's a woman in a flower shop who they're supposed to be a big moment with. Mm-hmm. but I didn't know her. Right. So when the big moment happened, i was kind of like, Oh, so there like yeah, I, I totally get it. It still was like a little jarring.
01:37:18
Speaker
Cause you know, it, it, some of these moments are, that is basically a mirror of um it's again, this is not a spoiler. Cause it's really not one-to-one. You're not even going to know which character I'm talking about in Kathy rain, but it's kind of mirroring the professor of Tulane university in Gabriel night one. And,
01:37:36
Speaker
um But again, we get to know the professor in Gabriel Knight one. yeah We question him. all He does research for us. These are fully developed characters that are kind of helping us out and we're going back to talk to them.
01:37:51
Speaker
And I think this is either going to be a thing that people really like or really don't because it does. It does cut back on backtracking, right? Some people don't like dialogue, heavy games and, know,
01:38:03
Speaker
some of the criticism for Gabriel Knight is that it's long-winded, man. Like, it is backtracking like crazy. And you're either going to like that because it gives routine familiarity, or you're just going be like, God, this is so much information. I don't like it.
01:38:20
Speaker
And also, Kathy Rain is not long-winded, right? Yeah, it's not. For game and a point-and-click adventure game, there's no point in which I'm like, get it get through this dialogue the dialogue is not only well written it's also breezy it passes by you you know it it keeps moving it is not disc world the other character that i don't feel is developed at all um is and i know this is such a cliche to call a location a character but cassidy illinois yeah i don't
01:38:54
Speaker
I don't understand. There's not a lot about is there? No. We spent two games in it now. And the places in it just don't seem to... Like, there's a biker bar, but there's also... And there's a flower shop, and there's like a poetry bar.
01:39:13
Speaker
There's like a poetry bar. there's yeah like a There's like a bad side of town, I guess. But there's also... The biker bar seems to be kind of outside the town. Yeah. I don't...
01:39:25
Speaker
There's, I guess, a college there? No, the college is in the city, which is right next to the town. I don't know. I have such ah hard time and putting this suburb...
01:39:38
Speaker
together in my mind or and i think and in you know if we look back to gabriel knight it's taking from a real city you know new orleans and gabriel knight too went on to do germany um and because they're using these real places they're actually dedicated to making it as accurate as possible i think it would have been a better thing to do maybe just make it in chicago Maybe make it in a city where you can make these things familiar, where where you can give it a personality.
01:40:12
Speaker
What a surprise. Roses wants something set in Chicago. Oh my God. That's just coincidence. No. Yeah. i I think honestly, I almost wonder if just putting a map.
01:40:33
Speaker
Hmm. Would have helped. Sure. Gabriel Knight. Puts all the locations on the map. And then you can picture where they are. And it almost gives you a sense of.
01:40:47
Speaker
This that version of New Orleans. That's true. This I don't have it again. I don't have a sense of what Cassidy looks like. Is there forest between all these different places?
01:40:58
Speaker
Is there woods? arab Woods is forest. Is there is there are there hills? Is there is there is it ah like a suburb that is mostly city?
01:41:09
Speaker
And so in between everything is just a small town. roses roads and apartments, right? Because we do go to like a cabin in the woods. We go to a ah forest preserve, but also there's a city part. You're right. it The city has a little bit of an identity crisis and I can't I don't really feel connected to the setting.
01:41:31
Speaker
I feel connected to the ah individual settings. Yeah. Those are great. Yeah. Because if they just showed me a map, there's like, this is the downtown. Yeah. This is where, this is like the...
01:41:45
Speaker
ah the neighborhoods where your grandmother lives and maybe the cemetery is and maybe the flower shop is. And this out here is like the outskirts where the biker bar is.
01:41:58
Speaker
Yeah. And, and in maybe in the center is the, Is the nature preserve. Like I would feel so just that. Just seeing how the town was laid out. Maybe this is I'm harping too much on it.
01:42:13
Speaker
But I agree with it it would have made me feel attached. In a way that I didn't. And I think that is the thing. Kathy rain too is missing the most is a sense of attachment, like a sense of giving us a reason to feel attached to any of it.
01:42:34
Speaker
Yeah. Agreed. i agree. Um, but here's a funny part is an adventure game where you find a rope and you can't pick it up. ah Wait, when was when is that?
01:42:46
Speaker
When there's a moment where you, um,
01:42:52
Speaker
how do I say this without spoiling you don't have to it sits there's a moment where you get caught okay you caught in something that involves a rope oh right don't know if I okay I don't think I tried to pick up the rope the first thing I did adventure game I want that rope Oh, give me the rope.
01:43:14
Speaker
Losing it. umm lo I'm losing it. I think I just I do think it's funny. Like yeah like every adventure game, you need a rope. Kathy Rain. Now she doesn't want that rope. it doesn't want a rope I'm putting that in our outfit.
01:43:28
Speaker
All right. Well, do you have any final thoughts on Kathy Rain to soothsayer? We talked about this a lot more than I thought we would. Yeah, yeah. um Honestly, my only final thought is that I really like this game. it did It did miss a couple points for me, as we talked about.
01:43:45
Speaker
That's only because I liked it, though. and And I've said that before. When I like a game, I want it to be as developed as it possibly can. But it is a fantastic procedural It makes sense.
01:43:57
Speaker
ah The character of Kathy Rain is great. And yeah, the dialogue is really breezy. And again, it's beautiful. i I'm so enamored with what this game looks like. Well done. Absolutely. I feel the same way. i'm I was really taken with this game. I think I was taken with the first one. Oh, yeah, I was too. yeah Yeah.
01:44:16
Speaker
This one, i think, was a great follow-up. i'm I'm really happy having played it like i'm yeah i'm glad that we play that we played this one and glad we talked about this one i think there's a lot to love there i yeah i'd i'd highly recommend it yeah absolutely recommend anyone who's a fan of detective games uh story games and uh especially if you're a fan of point and click adventures yeah um and it says does that is that is that a wrap on this episode did we do it think that's a wrap there's one other thing i wanted to tell you about actually you did yes okay and we won't do okay why don't we go ahead and play cranky boozerino
01:45:09
Speaker
Oh, shit. That's not a good combo. No. ah And come back and i will i have one more thing to tell you before we say goodbye. Okay.
01:45:19
Speaker
Hey, roses. Hi.
01:45:38
Speaker
I want to tell you about a thing that I played that, a you know, we've already talked about a little bit.
01:45:49
Speaker
Okay. Go for it. And it is the game Pine Hearts, which is number 49 on our list of every adventure game of all time. So you actually went and played one of the ranks.
01:46:04
Speaker
I actually went and played a game that i we ranked and i had and I hadn't played before. You know what that means. I get to re-rank it! You can if you want to! But yeah, so me tell me well.
01:46:16
Speaker
Let me tell you about it a little quick ah a little bit first. It is a a sort of top-down, well, isometric maybe, cute little 3D game where it's sort of like a...
01:46:30
Speaker
like a real simplified version of maybe a, top town Zelda or something. Sure. Where it's not quite a Metroidvania, but you are getting new abilities and new tools throughout the game that will allow you to pass barriers that you've encountered before.
01:46:51
Speaker
um but You are a dude returning to a mountain, from your childhood. I think this takes place somewhere in Scotland because people say some Scottish slang every now and then.
01:47:08
Speaker
but By the way, it's by Hyperluminal Games. um It came out in 2024. twenty twenty four so you You're back at this mountain that you were, and you, you're, I guess the forest ranger or something won't let you climb the mountain until you have all the equipment you need. So you have to go around helping people with these little, again, little abilities that you learn. You're also collecting memory droplets.
01:47:42
Speaker
And when you have enough memory droplets, you enter a memory and learn a new ability. ah So those abilities will be a thing like you can push over a tree to make yourself a little bridge.
01:47:56
Speaker
um You can pick up a block and move it. You can ah hop across a little gap.
01:48:08
Speaker
And all of them have their own sort of... i don't Calling them minigames isn't even, but it'll be like, Hopping across the gap, you have to get your accuracy right. So there's a little meter that bounces back and forth and you have to catch it in the middle.
01:48:26
Speaker
um Or if you're lifting a block, you have to move the stick up and then hold in a so that he can gather up his strength. Just little things like that. Right.
01:48:38
Speaker
A little bit like a short hike. Right. Where you're kind of getting abilities. You're climbing up a mountain. Yeah. I can see how it would sound the same. Yeah. But it's I think it's very different than a short hike.
01:48:51
Speaker
But like an indie game, like a short hike even, it does have that... You find out throughout the game you are grieving ah lost parent.
01:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. Who you visited this mountain with when you were a little kid. And you're remembering moments with them. and And that's how you remember these different... things And, you know, like a short hike, you are trying to distract yourself from a parent who is going through some surgery, it sounds like, and you don't know if they're going to make it or not.
01:49:25
Speaker
um It's just a very indie game thing. Like, oh, you you know, you're doing this very simple task, but... your parent died and you have to yeah you're constantly remembering them like that's every indie game is that plot right so the plot you know it might resonate with some people I don't know that it resonated very strongly with me because again it's just like I've seen this i've seen this so many times sure yeah yeah
01:49:56
Speaker
um And it wasn't done in a particularly unique way, but it was cute. And mostly you're just running around meeting these people in this big park and seeing the silly stuff they're up to and maybe helping them with silly little tasks.
01:50:14
Speaker
A lot of fetch quests. I like a lot of fetch quests. love a fetch quest though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you'd enjoy it. Yeah. and And some of the some of the quests are as simple as walking over to something and pressing A. like so It's a very, very simplistic game.
01:50:33
Speaker
Yeah. I don't... It's a little hard to tell who the audience is because it it feels simple enough for a child. but
01:50:42
Speaker
But I don't know... I guess a child can understand the concept of grief. yeah So yeah, maybe this is meant to be like a family friendly game. Maybe you're meant to play this with your kid.
01:50:55
Speaker
Yeah. Or maybe it's just for, you know, children of all ages. Maybe. yeah Yeah. It's just, the again, the gameplay is very, very simple. um
01:51:09
Speaker
there's a lot of backtracking. So for that reason, I don't want to kick it very high up the chart. Okay. But I do you think it belongs a little higher than where we put it.
01:51:24
Speaker
Okay, fair. Where would you like to place it? So, right now it's at 49, which is right behind Flight of the Amazon Queen.
01:51:40
Speaker
Now... It sounds like i'm going to be it's going to be making a big jump, but...
01:51:50
Speaker
Over time, i think this is going to drop, that where I'm going to put it is going to drop further and further on the list as we get. We've had so few games that are like classics or that we love show up yet.
01:52:05
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm looking around 31 between Wavetail and Shady Part of Me.
01:52:15
Speaker
I will allow it because you play you played it. You were using the rule that we did. so you play it and you want to kick it back down, can't stop you. That'd be so funny. I just play all these games to spite you.
Pine Hearts Game Review
01:52:30
Speaker
um move of Just move them anywhere you want. yeah like Every game that I play, you play You always play second so that I can't argue.
01:52:41
Speaker
um Yeah, so that's Pine Hearts. Nice. It's worth, I think, watch a trailer and see if it's something that you're going to like. ah Because again, it's very cozy. It's a relaxing game. The soundtrack can get a little repetitive, but it's different in each area. So there's some songs that were more annoying than others and some that I really liked.
01:53:04
Speaker
um And there's some funny stuff in it too. So if you don't mind... just the most gossamer of mechanics again really just walking up to shit and pressing a yeah ah then yeah maybe give pine hearts a whirl yeah it sounds like a great stress reliever i'm gonna play it and i'm gonna move it
01:53:32
Speaker
it's so all right so that said guys thank you so much for listening yeah thank you thank you for joining us today Thank you for joining us today. We know we've been we've been inconsistent lately, and we're working on it.
01:53:47
Speaker
That's just life, you know? Podcasts is like life. Is like life. inconsist Inconsistent. Inconsistent. But yeah, um you know what, though?
01:53:59
Speaker
I'm proud of both of us and this podcast. We've got out over 60 episodes, and that's it for any podcaster. so Absolutely. And hey, send us some encouraging words.
Podcast Updates and Social Media
01:54:13
Speaker
You can email us, madamroces at gmail.com.
01:54:16
Speaker
And you can sit yeah say, what was it? Good art? Good art. a Good artist. Good artist. Yeah. Send us good artist and nothing else. Or send us questions for a future Q&A episode.
01:54:29
Speaker
um We haven't done one of those. We haven't done anything in a while. Yeah. Open suggestion. We're open to we're open to all things. And if you're interested in talking to us on social media, we do have an Instagram that sometimes we update with cute little things. You can find us at Save Your Game Podcast on Instagram.
01:54:51
Speaker
And yeah, we we up every time we upload an episode, we do update on Instagram as well. Oh, and thanks everyone for the great feedback about the last episode. It was a departure.
01:55:02
Speaker
it was, yeah. from what we normally do and it seems like you guys enjoyed it so you know I enjoyed doing it it was fun absolutely I don't know that a thing will come up but off like again that will make us have to do something like feel like we have to do something like that but you know knowing that you guys liked it means that we know we have that option available in the future absolutely that said I think there's only one thing left to say.
01:55:35
Speaker
What's that? and On the theme of good artist, I actually believe that podcast is art. agree. Podcast is art. if you and But also... What? our Yeah, but also artists suffer.