Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 71 - CARIMARA and Mouthwashing
2 Playsin 7 hours
SPOOKY MONTH CONTINUES! With Roses really wanting a coffee and Matt wanting to figure out how to make baths less hot. After a quick discussion about spookycute game CARIMARA: Beneath the forlorn limbs, they dive headfirst into the horrifying waters of Mouthwashing!
Games Mentioned:
- Carimara: Beneath the forlorn limbs
- Inscryption
- No, I'm Not Human
- Mouthwashing
Email us! mattandroses@gmail.com
Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/fPv7hRgTeV
Follow us on Instagram: instagram.com/saveyourgamepodcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Vaccine Chat
00:00:00
Speaker
My arm hurts. I'm sorry. got three vaccines in it today. That's <unk> it's actually a lot of shots to get in one day. i mean, not not only because like you're going to get tired, but doesn't your does your arm feel fatigued too? Yeah.
00:00:19
Speaker
It hurts so bad. She was like, we're going to do a little triangle. It seemed like ah she was just she just thought it was going to be fun to put three holes in my arm.
00:00:30
Speaker
Make a little pattern, little triforce. I'm just going to do a little triangle. And, you know, maybe she would have even felt better if I had done four. And then she could have done a little... yeah square?
00:00:41
Speaker
Diamond. Diamond? A triangle's good, though. I would have started talking about Zelda and confusing the shit out of everyone. So I am... Absolutely now immune to illness.
00:00:57
Speaker
Wow. Can't get any illnesses. I can't give you a cold?
Colds vs. Flu: A Heated Debate
00:01:02
Speaker
You immune to colds? I'm immune to colds. How is it? I have a question. I got the cold shot.
00:01:11
Speaker
Dude, I wish. Colds are, I don't care what anyone says. I would rather be throwing up than have a cold. Let me know if you're with me on this because I can't stand not being able to breathe. I can't stand the mucus. It lasts for like 500 years.
00:01:28
Speaker
The medicines don't help. this soup is no good. Sorry. Soup is no good. You mean soup doesn't help or just you don't like soup? It doesn't help. Okay. Actually, it kind of helps a little bit if I'm honest.
00:01:42
Speaker
I just got real riled up there for a second. I mean, with a cold, you can take like a hot bath. But if you have the flu, that just makes you feel worse. Yes, it definitely. it definitely does.
00:01:54
Speaker
But then I'm just in a hot bath with my nose fucking running. Here's a problem with a hot bath. It feels so good when that bathtub is filling up, right?
00:02:06
Speaker
And you got this hot water flooding in on your feet, on your butt hole.
00:02:14
Speaker
Wow. Okay. And then, so then you're covered in the hot water and you're like, oh this is so great. I'm ready to turn off the hot water. the The tub's all full and I'll just kick back and be in the tub. And then within five minutes, you're like, it's so hot in here! No, I know!
00:02:32
Speaker
I know! I'm just like, Jesus! I hate this! It's so hot! and then So then you do the thing where you're like, okay, I'm gonna turn on the cold water.
Mishaps and Humor in Everyday Life
00:02:42
Speaker
Right, to like, to yeah, to cool it down a little bit. to To cool it down, but and then it feels so good to feel like the the the nice, like, ah soothing cold water kind of flooding into the bathtub and then like,
00:02:58
Speaker
ah On the bottom, you're like, ooh, I'm a little too cold. Like, my feet are a little too cold, but, like, my nipples are a little, are just so warm that it is, like, evening it out. And it feels so good, like, eating an ice cream sundae.
00:03:15
Speaker
And then you're like, all right, it's it's it's balanced out enough. I'm going to turn off the water. And then you're sitting there and after a couple minutes, you're like, it's so cold. i know. How do we fix this issue?
00:03:32
Speaker
ah What happened? Okay. Listen, I know I just asked you a question. on how to ah fix this problem.
00:03:43
Speaker
But I have to let you and the listeners know that during that, I went to go get my coffee order that I had Ubered to me. huh and i you know they buzzed in and i I answered and I let them in and I set up the stairs.
00:03:57
Speaker
And they're like, I'm so sorry, it's spilled everywhere. and no way. Yes. And they're like, I'm going to go get you a new one. And I'm like, are you sure?
00:04:10
Speaker
And he and theyre he's just like, yeah, like the whole bag is soaked and like it spilled. And i I had gotten some banana bread with it and it's soaked. its So nothing was salvaged.
00:04:21
Speaker
He's very sorry about it. he I'm like two minutes away from the Starbucks. So he's like, no, I'll just go get you a non ruined order.
Podcast Introduction and Beverage Talk
00:04:30
Speaker
he has to go get another.
00:04:33
Speaker
was so close. He was so close. He was in the building, Matt. All I was going to say was hot cubes.
00:05:16
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome to Save Your Game. i am your host, Matt Aukamp, and with me, this spooky scary, heepy creepy, crawly, crow crabby, car crab scary?
00:05:36
Speaker
It's Pushing Up Roses. No, but neither am I, really. No, you're not. Hi everyone, Pushing Up Roses here. I'm just trying to get my coffee. yeah I'm going to edit this in a way i Well, you told me before recording that you were having pizza. And naturally, the response to that is, i want a pumpkin spice latte. I'm going to get a pumpkin spice latte. Ooh, pizza. I'm going to get a pumpkin spice latte.
00:06:01
Speaker
Ooh, pumpkins. So I did that. And it's a whole thing now.
Exploring 'Karimara, Beneath the Forlorn Limbs'
00:06:05
Speaker
um Because my order is trashed.
00:06:12
Speaker
I'm just waiting. youre that You're doing that thing where you're like, you're sort of like, you're clearly waiting for the guy to call back. I am, but he's not going to call back. you're like so you're like, you're trying to not wait for it. So you're still talking. and i know. i just and you so like trying to carry on the cup But you are waiting for it. So you're like talking slow and deliberately.
00:06:36
Speaker
I i is and
00:06:42
Speaker
Hey, roses. Yes. I've got a jump scare for you. Okay. No intro this week. Play batty spookerino.
00:07:06
Speaker
Everybody, welcome back to Save Your Game. It seems like I just welcomed you here. You guys have gotten so needy.
00:07:15
Speaker
Clingy. Yeah, clingy. Welcome us twice in a row, they say. um i'm Matt Alcab. This is Pushing a Process. You just heard our names.
00:07:31
Speaker
but hi again. Here's the thing. Here's why we skipped the intro. ah Because normally in the intro, we ask each other what we've been playing. This week, we played the same damn things. We did. We did that.
00:07:42
Speaker
we yeah The game that I was going to talk about in the intro is, ah what's it called? Karimara, Beneath the Forlorn Limbs.
00:07:55
Speaker
And I told Roses about it. and she went and played the ding dang thing. I did it this time. Like, I don't know. Something, i don't know. Something sparked me. You know what it was?
00:08:07
Speaker
Spooky. You're like, this game is really good. It's like spooky, cute. It's endearing. I'm like, okay, okay. It's short. yeah Sold. It sold me. I'm like, it's short. And then I put 45 hours into it because I left it running.
00:08:22
Speaker
wonder if the developers get like some sort of notice of like somebody, like, but like if they get like stats, like yeah what's the longest somebody has spent on your game.
00:08:35
Speaker
And it's like, how did somebody spend 45 hours in our game?
00:08:41
Speaker
I do, it's not the first time that I have done this. ah So my hours on my Steam page are all kinds of messed up. Because, okay, I'll say, I'll i'll just explain. Karimara Beneath the Forlorn Limbs, we're just going to call it Karimara from here on out, yeah is by the developer Bastinus Rex and published by Critical Reflex, which we normally, we don't always say the publisher, but There's a reason I'm bringing that up.
00:09:07
Speaker
We'll come back to them. yeah um It was just released this month, earlier this month, and it's only about an hour long game. So we're going to be a little, ah we're going to sort of tiptoe around spoilers. We're going to have to talk about ah the way this game develops.
00:09:29
Speaker
But I think we'll try and avoid saying the plot points. Yes. that it develops into. that the Yeah, where the story goes. So, the premise of this game...
00:09:44
Speaker
Is that you are Akari Mara, which you find out is like a little magical gnome guy. He's so cute. ah you You wear like a skull on your head.
00:09:59
Speaker
got like a staff. And you got a staff with a skull on it. Very skull-based. You walk kind of like wobbly, kind of like a little wobble walk. It's so cute.
00:10:10
Speaker
You are a type of magical creature in this world. That can only interact with your world through cards. Right. that is That is the magic that you wield. So when you see somebody, like when you interact with somebody, when you meet somebody or discover an object, that thing will become a card in your hand.
00:10:34
Speaker
And then when you want to interact with other objects or you want to talk to somebody about a certain subject, you have to present them the card. Yeah. So that's a new mechanic for me. i looked at that and thought like, is this a card game?
00:10:52
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. And you know what I'm asking. You know, like what I mean. Yes. Well, I looked at it and thought of the game Inscription. Okay. Because it also has this like Inscription.
00:11:06
Speaker
It's a 3D game. It's first person. There is a the begins with you looking at cards across the table from a very spooky-looking person.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah. um In a little hut. Very, again, very inscription-like. But it's different than that. You are here.
00:11:30
Speaker
the The role of Akari Mara in this world is to...
00:11:36
Speaker
Dispel spirits. Yeah, you're like a little ghost hunter. So there's an old lady in this village who put out an ad asking for somebody to dispel the ghost in her basement because it is keeping her up at night and won't won't leave her alone.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah.
Personal Connections and Indie Games
00:11:56
Speaker
She also feels as if it's bringing her some kind of misfortune. This woman is terrible. Like, this game starts out as really scary. It does. Yeah, I was kind of... There there was a point where i decided where I decided it was more spooky cute, which was pretty early on for me. I know you said it was not for you. It took a while um to get over the the spookiness of it, but I decided early on that this was going to be more spooky cute.
00:12:26
Speaker
There's a moment where you something you turn ah you're in a so You're in a scary area, right? like It is scary, yeah. You talk to this old woman. She sends you to her basement. This basement is also scary. and It's a cellar. and it's Yeah, it's scary. She has these really creepy dolls hanging up all around her house. And she's being cagey with you. Yeah.
00:12:50
Speaker
You know that she has more information than she's giving you. And you don't know what she's keeping secrets about. So you're looking at all of these things and being like, something is wrong here. i don't know what.
00:13:02
Speaker
This is scary. And there's a moment that you are descending into the darkness that if you turn around, something has changed. And you interpreted that as a very cute.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I did. Yeah. As terrifying. was like a legitimate jump scare for me. or no i know i understand I understand why it i understand why it would be. I think that I was interpreting it almost immediately as this kind of Tim Burton-y type of experience where like it does look aesthetically spooky, but it's not.
00:13:37
Speaker
It still is, though. there are I do think this game has like kind of a scary feel to it, for sure. It's utilizing low-res textures. Yeah.
00:13:49
Speaker
which is going to be a theme to this episode. It's utilizing low res 3D textures to make things feel unsettling. And again, all the characters are designed in an unsettling way. There is an owl.
00:14:03
Speaker
i love the owl my favorite. They did that. You know how we sometimes talk about like millennial humor and like internet speak humor. And we were a little sick of it.
00:14:14
Speaker
I was afraid that's how it was going to be. with these characters but as soon as the owl started talking in this kind of morbidly cute way yeah i was like i love this character actually i think that's exactly what spooky cute is meant to be yes like this owl is is super hungry and she wants to like eat the woman after she dies and he's like why is she's like why don't you have food do you have food not interested and Okay, so you go, you descend into this basement, you meet the ghost.
00:14:46
Speaker
this is This is very early on in the game. This is the first well at five minutes of the game or less. um And you meet the ghost and the ghost asks you, who am I?
00:14:58
Speaker
And you can only use your cards to answer. And then it asks you, what killed me? And you can only use your cards to answer. And then it says, who killed me?
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah. And you use your cards to answer. It becomes like a little murder mystery. Unless something very strange has happened with your first playthrough, you won will, number one, not know the answers to these questions. Correct. And number two, just not have the cards, the correct cards to do this.
00:15:30
Speaker
Right. So...
00:15:33
Speaker
She lashes out at you, which again can be a little scary. Lashes out at you. It asks if you're mocking it And then you pass out. And then you wake up in the old woman's hut with her hovering over you once again.
00:15:50
Speaker
But this is where the game starts to get interesting. So now you're a detective. You know, you're wandering around this very small little area trying to solve the murder problem.
00:16:03
Speaker
Of this ghost. yeah Who is this ghost? so What killed them? Who killed them?
00:16:10
Speaker
Now, I think that the theme of this game is examining your prior assumptions. Sure. And I think you've already hit, Roses, on a couple ways that the game does that. First of all, the game comes off immediately as terrifying. And the characters come off as scary and suspicious.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah. And you are asked throughout the game to constantly reevaluate those things. Is this game scary? Yeah.
00:16:42
Speaker
Or is it kind of sweet and kind of beautiful? Or even sad. And sad. And I think by the end, I felt it was all of these things. It scared me at the beginning.
00:16:53
Speaker
By the end, it it had a this game has a legitimately beautiful ending. Yeah, it does. It's sad. It's sweet. It's beautiful. It's tragic.
00:17:03
Speaker
There comes a point where if you make enough guesses to the ghost, the ghost will tell you to re-examine everything you thought you knew from... Go back to the beginning.
00:17:16
Speaker
Oh, I didn't know that. to the very like Think things through from the very beginning to try and figure this out. Re-examine everything you thought. And again That is what the entirety, I think, of this game is about.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And I love that. I love that. i love i love and love anything that's like, is it spooky or is it nice and cool?
00:17:46
Speaker
you know and i just love any game that makes its gameplay interesting. Be a part of the story. Like, be a part of the themes.
00:17:57
Speaker
Yeah. Uses the gameplay to tell the story rather than just to have you sort of watch a story and interrupt it occasionally. And I think this is a game that I don't know if you would fully, if you just watched this story, you'd kind of get this idea of like, oh, okay, yeah. Yeah. Assumptions.
00:18:18
Speaker
Assumptions. are misleading. like ah Like first impressions and the assumptions you make can mislead you. but yes But without playing it and without the atmosphere that it sets up, without coming across as a horror game at first, you're not going to get those themes.
00:18:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah, that's true. You're not going to digest them as well. What did you think of Karimara? I really love it. I loved it so much that I did a fan art of it.
00:18:48
Speaker
It's true. post it on Instagram. Yeah, we'll post it. And you know me. I never do that. Never. Unless it's like older. think I drew us as Sam and Max. I drew couple things for our Instagram that were retro, adventure game related, King's Quest, whatever. It's not because I don't want to. just don't have a lot of time to do art that isn't for another purpose.
00:19:12
Speaker
Sure. And I liked it so much. I like the aesthetic so much that I drew a fan art of the owl character aforementioned that's in this game. And I wanted to show like the dev. don't think they're on Blue Sky. Unfortunately, I did post it.
00:19:28
Speaker
okay But i I really like it. I really love the art style. i I thought it was sad, but but also relieving by the time I got to the end.
00:19:41
Speaker
Right. I think that is but i will say that on a personal level it really spoke to me okay and i i actually felt like a little bit relieved of some of my own sadness Oh, okay. Like, the game was taking the brunt of some of this sadness that I relate to. And if you have played this game and you know something about me, you might you might get it.
00:20:10
Speaker
um Listen, it's only 45 minutes to, like, an hour. maybe you can make Maybe you can make it longer if you really wanted to, but... And it's only, like i think, $6 or something, maybe less. i got It's on sale.
00:20:25
Speaker
I bought it on sale for like $5. So honestly, I think it's very worth it. It might not be by the time this episode comes out. Yeah, maybe. I think it's worth it and And as we've talked about sometimes on the show, especially when we're playing shorter, smaller games, it is a developer who made a smaller game.
00:20:46
Speaker
who that that is really masterful and if we ever want to see more games from this person we gotta buy this one i know yes absolutely i really want to see more games from this person okay it i just looked it up for for our viewers it is normally only five dollars i got it for ah four dollars and fifty cents Yes.
00:21:10
Speaker
So please support it. it's It's great. um Yeah,
Nostalgia in Low-Res Horror Games
00:21:14
Speaker
it's great. It's called Karimara Beneath the Forlorn Limbs. Definitely worth your time. It's by Bastinus Rex.
00:21:21
Speaker
I think... ah Looks like this is their only game, at least on Steam. So... Yeah. So let's get more. And, interestingly enough, this game is published by...
00:21:35
Speaker
Critical reflex. Roses, do you want to tell us a little bit about critical reflex before we move on to our next game? Yeah. So I noticed that after playing mouthwashing, right, I had started getting a lot of other adverts, not adverts, but recommendations for other things that,
00:21:56
Speaker
that kind of looks similar to mouthwashing in that it's a slow res horror, right? So Karimara, I think that's how you got to Karimara was probably through the publisher.
00:22:07
Speaker
No. No, really? i Yes. i had i saw it on, somebody recommended it on Blue Sky. I think Casey Explosion, who I'm a big fan of. i i ah When she recommends a game, I pay attention. i you say i don't yeah play ah I don't play all of them because ah I've...
00:22:26
Speaker
Me and you, we have particular tastes in games. I know. Yeah, I know. but ah But i I generally look up everything Casey Explosion. do too. Yeah. a Casey Explosion is why i bought Dredge and loved it. I put many hours into Dredge.
00:22:43
Speaker
But yeah, no, that's that's a good call. I think it is interesting that... That recommendation correlates to what we're talking about. because yeah no and Yeah, it's so interesting. So Critical Reflex, the they published Mouthwashing, and they also published these very strange, low-res horror games. They all seem to have...
00:23:04
Speaker
ah a similar thing to each other it seems like this publisher maybe has a point of view or a mission for certain games so i i actually played another one after mouth washing i play or i didn't play i watch well i may as well have to be quite honest with you i watched two full playthroughs of no i'm not a human oh my god I know so much about this game now. but Like I can do a deep dive on it because it's so it's so good. But I do think it's interesting just in looking at this publisher and what they choose to publish.
00:23:41
Speaker
Right. I just find all these low-res horror things really interesting. And like i'm I'm kind of like stoked that people like it so much. That there is a An audience for psychological horror in like this low-res kind of ah aesthetic.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's interesting. There's definitely something about low-res. Well, I think there's two things happening here. There's an eeriness to low-res, right? And ah like a little bit having to use your imagination to fill in the gaps that the resolution doesn't.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's one thing. And the other thing is the throwback to a time when the internet was spooky. Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
I think, like, the internet's scary now for other reasons. Right. But when we were kids, the internet was spooky. It was such a mystery place. And that's where all the, like, you know, spooky pastas or creepy pastas came from. Yeah, creepy pastas, yeah. Is that...
00:24:47
Speaker
there It was a legitimate time and where somebody could post something about a TV show that they half remembered from being a kid, and somebody else could be like, oh my god, I remember that show too.
00:25:01
Speaker
And they're both lying. Yeah. and you can't just look it up. Right. so That's true. You don't know.
00:25:13
Speaker
So when they're talking about like a TV show where somebody ate a crow in front of the camera or something, you, as a you know teenager or whatever, even probably into your 20s or thirty probably any age in that era, early you were...
00:25:35
Speaker
you were It was scary. Absolutely. You were like, i don't know it I don't know if these people are being – don't know if this is real or not. Yeah.
00:25:46
Speaker
That era of the internet has kind of gone away. But to me, that also holds hands with the
00:25:55
Speaker
um the low-res PlayStation 1, PlayStation 2 horror. Yeah. Yeah. This is like the two scary things. Those are two new scary dimensions of horror that were happening in the early 2000s. And so something about seeing these low res games brings me back to that that time in my in my life.
00:26:20
Speaker
I don't know if you feel similarly. I do feel that way. um there's there's a It's like scary nostalgia. Yes. Yeah, it's like scary nostalgia. It's weird. I mean, she feels strange. Noscari- Noscari- Noscari- Noscari-Sari- Noscari- Noscari-Sari- Noscari- please don't start saying that oh no think yeah if we start hearing scartalgia on the internet i'm going to quit all things my job my real life job my job becomes destitute sorry sorry guys I have to I have to quit my job I heard scarestalgia on the internet
00:26:57
Speaker
pet I also think that like low res lends itself to things looking obscure, you know, like, so you're, especially because these games seemingly are mostly first person.
00:27:09
Speaker
So like when you're approaching something that's low res, you're not really sure what it is. It could be something scary. Maybe it's not something scary, but it's like everything is a little obscured, a little bit lower in quality. Yeah.
00:27:23
Speaker
That's sorry. I'm sorry if you had more to go. but that But you just reminded me of something. that's That is the point I was building to, and I think I kind of lost it halfway through. Because scary nostalgia.
00:27:35
Speaker
The scary nostalgia is there was that sort of thing on the Internet. That was a thing you would discover video games you'd never played before or video games that somebody made.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah. Somebody made a spooky game and just uploaded it to the internet. Yeah. And they all looked like this. That's true. Yeah. So that, I think, is why the two things are linked in my head. Yeah.
00:28:01
Speaker
it, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. No, I, it's so interesting to see it come back because this is not, and This is not a roses aesthetic
Introducing 'Mouthwashing' and Its Themes
00:28:10
Speaker
at all. It's just not. um And I'll explain more about that as we talk about mouth washing. Now I already spoke a little bit about mouth washing in our last episode.
00:28:21
Speaker
ah So I am not going to go over those things that we already talked about by this point. If you want to go listen to it, go listen to it. In fact, yes, go listen to it because. also Do you want to, is it time for us to put on.
00:28:37
Speaker
Spooky Draculino and talk about mouthwashing? But you, I already played spooky Macarino. Yeah, that was segment one. This is segment two.
00:28:51
Speaker
Okay. Incoming.
00:29:07
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to Save Your Game. I'm Pushing Up Roses with me as always, the scare-style chick.
00:29:19
Speaker
He's got to quit his job now. I'm calling my boss. The unemployed Okamp. yeah Hey, hey, everybody. Hi. So, yeah, I'm just going to dive. I'm just going fucking nosedive right into this. So as I was saying, we already talked about mouthwashing before, or at least I did. And then Matt played it upon my recommendation.
00:29:40
Speaker
So hopefully you already know what it's about. um And now we're just going to discuss things a little bit further. Something I want to add on top of this whole low res thing is that I don't think that this that mouthwashing in particular is a game you can just simply watch a playthrough for. it No.
00:29:59
Speaker
And the reason is because you, I feel like with the way that the characters are designed, they're so strange looking. If you just see that, it just doesn't, you need to be able to like read and feel and think about the dialogue. You need to be able to read it in your own tone ah because otherwise it kind of looks a mess to be honest with you.
00:30:22
Speaker
So I do think maybe don't, I mean, I watched a playthrough after I played it. um Just because I wanted to think. I'm doing a video on it. I want to think about it more.
00:30:33
Speaker
See if I miss anything. I think that's helpful. I think there's a lot of different interpretations people have of this game. Definitely. we are going to talk about ours. And i think ours match.
00:30:45
Speaker
They do match. But I think our and initial takeaways, again, they don't they didn't disagree with each other. But they were focused on different areas.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah. um But because of that, and because I think all, honestly, all interpretations of this game, at least that I've heard so far, are valid interpretations. Absolutely, yeah. ah I think listening to other people's perspectives about this game is a good idea. Now, for people like me and Rose's...
00:31:23
Speaker
We are game critics and game commenters. So in order to not be, we we need to have developed our opinions before we start watching other people's.
00:31:36
Speaker
But yeah yeah, I think I wouldn't, if you're interested in mouthwashing and if you played mouthwashing, I wouldn't just stop with us. I would i would seek out some other interpretations as well.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I really do, I do feel, and obviously listen to our takes no matter what, but I think that our opinions are going to be ah more interesting to listen to if you've played Mouthwashing. Sure. Because then, you know, it kind of feels like you're part of the conversation, I guess. um Right. And yeah, because there's going to be things that, I don't know, it's just a very interesting and unique game. You'll never have played anything like it.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it it is psychological horror. do you ah So do you want me to just go into my interpretation of what I took away from it? um
00:32:30
Speaker
here's Here's what I think. So the last time you explained the very basic premise. Yes. I think we're going to have to spoil some big plot stuff in order to even discuss it.
00:32:44
Speaker
Yes, I'm going to be. We're going into spoilers hard. I think we're just going to start. We're going to get into spoilers kind of high immediately. Yeah. So we'll give you like a couple seconds.
00:32:55
Speaker
um And now. Why don't we talk about the rest of the plot? took some pretty intense things away from this game, as one can imagine, because.
00:33:10
Speaker
my Remember I told you last time about, you know, how psychological horror really deals with human horrors. And I think it's, I think this kind of genre and artist is sadistic at best.
00:33:23
Speaker
of It's not always quote fun, right? Because it does deal with human, like very human horror with an often more like surreal aesthetic.
00:33:34
Speaker
like the aesthetics in this game, not grounded in reality at all. We're talking horrific and visuals, eyeballs, just weird, weird stuff. Right. yeah ah But the fear that we're dealing with, those are very grounded. Those are very human, um which I think is such an interesting ah juxtaposition. So my main thing, and I do, and I, and Matt's going to give his ah kind of parallel, parallel interpretation.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah. To me, this game is about sexual assault. yeah I think that's the only thing. Well, I don't, but I think it's the biggest thing that this game is talking about. And even some of the other themes kind of drive that.
00:34:19
Speaker
I also think it is about a boys club. Remember how I told you that one of the scariest parts of this game was that you're stuck on in space. Yes. And there are four men and one woman.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yes. we're going to give ah I'm going to give away the two big twists yeah here. The two big plot points. Number one, you start out this game playing the person who crashes the ship. You are forced to crash the ship.
00:34:45
Speaker
You are playing first person. You crash the ship. Suddenly, it tells you to swerve left. Right. Right. And the only thing you can do swerve right.
00:34:55
Speaker
It tells you that the autopilot has been engaged. The only thing it'll allow you to do is disengage the autopilot. And you crash. And then you kind of cut to a the All the crew except for the captain have survived.
00:35:14
Speaker
And they have a couple months of rations left over. Well, no, the captain survives. Yeah. Well, right. Yeah, so... He's a alive. He just, you Yeah, all the other crew are, like, together in the sort of lounge area.
00:35:31
Speaker
The captain is... He lost the use of his arms and legs. He lost a lot of skin to burns. He seems to have lost one eye. Can't really speak. Yeah, no, he's... lost his lips and it seems like he lost his tongue, perhaps.
00:35:47
Speaker
And so he can't, you know... he It's bad. It's horrific looking. He can't eat or speak. and so you ah and And so you are now playing Jimmy, the like his second in command.
00:36:07
Speaker
And there's some other characters. Daisuke, who is the mechanics intern. Swansea, who's the mechanic. um Anya, who is their...
00:36:18
Speaker
medical person and then Jimmy who was the co-pilot and Curly was the captain and they're all talking about how you know they can't ever know why Curly crashed the ship.
00:36:31
Speaker
Right. So the big plot point here is you eventually find out Curly didn't crash the ship. Jimmy crashed the ship.
00:36:43
Speaker
You were playing Jimmy the whole time. Well, you're not playing Jimmy the whole time. You're playing him in the the beginning, and then you've been playing through the game, throughout the game. We should say that. Also, the game is nonlinear, so you jump back and forth in time to before the crash and after the crash.
00:37:00
Speaker
Right. And so you are playing the captain, Curly, but ah before the crash. Before the crash. And after the crash, you're playing Jimmy, which I think is really excellent storytelling. Yeah.
00:37:12
Speaker
And eventually you discover that during the crash in that intro, you were playing Jimmy. Correct. Yes. He is the one that crashed. I guess there's another couple of big plot points. You discover also that what you were carrying was mouthwash.
00:37:26
Speaker
You had been on a 382 journey. You're days in. and this is just what this business
Character Dynamics and Moral Complexity
00:37:34
Speaker
does. they transport um But everybody's very surprised when they find out it's something as pointless as mouthwash.
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah, and only mouthwash. Given up over a year of their lives. Yeah. To transport what they they describe as an ocean of mouthwash.
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah. um And I'm going to, because you have a lot to say about it, I'm going to let you say yeah sort of the other big plot point.
00:38:04
Speaker
This, I think, is really the critical thing of this story and what kind of drives the characters and what what themes you can take away is that Anya, who is the, she's also, she's the psych eval as well, by the way. She is a nurse. She's the psych eval nurse and she's the medical nurse.
00:38:23
Speaker
At some point after the crash, she tells... Actually, was it before the crash? At some point on the ship... Before Okay. She tells Curly, the captain, we're playing Curly at this point, that she is pregnant.
00:38:37
Speaker
And, you know, Curly is a little taken back by this, and he's like, who? How? And Anya says, Curly, I told you. Now, prior to this conversation, I think this is ah an interesting thing about mouthwashing.
00:38:50
Speaker
You can easily miss that this might not have been ah ah non-consensual. You might think that this was consensual and that she is simply freaking out because she is pregnant on a ship in space and she may have to give birth in space. That's that's a huge deal, right?
00:39:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. yeah However, throughout the game, there's little nuggets of Anya talking to each of the guys, particularly about Jimmy, who seems to be an extremely toxic person, completely obsessed with um success and being a better man than Curly and never doing anything wrong.
00:39:29
Speaker
um There is a part where... Anya asks Curly why there are not locks on the bedrooms, but there's a lock on like the medical bay and the cockpit.
00:39:40
Speaker
And it Curly just offhandedly remarks you know just to keep to keep those things safe. But not the bedrooms. um And there's... there let Yeah, let's talk about Anya's character. so she but There's some other indicators. ah Before we get off this, do you mind if we talk about some of the other indicators?
00:39:57
Speaker
At one point, she says... um that she mentions that Curly won't let her carry the gun.
00:40:09
Speaker
Correct. Correct. in indicating that she's asked him and he said no uh but she will let him take the locked gun case and hide it so that quote he doesn't get it correct yeah so that's another indicator uh you might uh you know that jimmy has been harassing her sexually harassing her in his psyche vows yep that's one of the first things you learn actually Mm-hmm. And you might you might easily, in that first scene, think that it's just a joke that everybody's in on. Because Curly doesn't take it seriously. And you don't know anything about these characters yet. So you might think, like, oh, what a silly guy. He's just a dick. Yeah. Yeah. yeah um and you
00:40:58
Speaker
also know that she so that after the crash Where she chooses to sleep, and I had to have this pointed out to me by like a podcast I listened to, she sleeps underneath the the the Pony Express statue, which has a motion sensor that goes off if you come near it.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah. So, again, you sort of string all those things together. Yeah. She has made references to being at least afraid of Jimmy, afraid of his anger.
00:41:42
Speaker
um There's also a thing that Anya's character does, which is very, again, rooted in real life and how victims react to an abusive person. But she's clearly, because they are stuck in space together, there's no way out, can't go anywhere.
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah. she displays something called fawning, which is kind of a defense mechanism of when you are deeply afraid of upsetting somebody. So you kind of gas them up.
00:42:08
Speaker
And i think that's an interesting part of the game. I think it can be overlooked, but there is a point where you playing Jimmy, you have to go find extra painkillers. And Anya's like, you did it.
00:42:19
Speaker
You're just, you're amazing, Jimmy. Like you really are. And I think that That is an interesting and grounded thing that I really related to. It's like, yeah, yeah that is what somebody would do ah for anyone who thinks that's a weird thing to do to just praise your, your abuser.
00:42:36
Speaker
It's not especially somebody who is violent um or angry And yeah, I just thought that was so sad. Is always asking him to do things for And there's one very tough thing that she asks him to do um over and over, which is give Curly his pain medicine.
00:42:54
Speaker
Yeah. um But she also asks him to do really easy things. like Yeah. Like, go get something out of the medicine cabinet. And... like she's She's just always asking him for little things like that.
00:43:05
Speaker
The other thing you might notice is anytime you talk to her, you're Jimmy, anytime you talk to her, you might mistake this as her just always being lost in thought or something.
00:43:19
Speaker
Yeah. But she's always spooked. Yeah. Every time you talk to her, she jumps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she's traumatized. um So that that's the main horrific thing that happens.
00:43:31
Speaker
But I think even more horrific is the response or lack of response from kind of this boys club that has formed on the Tulpar, which is the name of the ship.
00:43:45
Speaker
So when you tell the captain, Captain Curly, his response is very strange. It's not uncommon. I've heard this response from ah from a boys club before. And that is that, let me just go talk to him. I've known him a long time. We can fix this.
00:44:00
Speaker
Let me go talk to him. Even when he's talking to Jimmy, he's not he's not even angry at his actions. He just said, hey, we can fix this. And he says specifically, we've been through worse.
00:44:14
Speaker
It's not the end of the world. We can fix this. As if the bad thing that happened happened is happening to Jimmy. Yes. as And Curly, too. As if Jimmy and Curly are the victims. And also, you're going wonder, what does he mean we've been through worse? Either he's downplaying what happened or they've been through worse, which is even scarier.
00:44:33
Speaker
Yeah, which I don't, I'm going to say that they're downplaying it. Jimmy certainly does not give two shits about what he's done. it is shown through the mechanic.
00:44:44
Speaker
ah And i'll i'll get to I'll get to that in ah in in a little bit. um So some people say, because I have been listening to other people's critique, and some people say that the character of Swansea is very complicated. and had had Anya told him,
00:45:00
Speaker
It would have gone, and you know, instead of telling Curly, maybe it would have been dealt with a different way. Maybe Swansea, you know, he's kind of this gruff mechanic, middle-aged man. He's a bit of an alcoholic, anger problems, does not, quote, doesn't like his intern Daisuke.
00:45:18
Speaker
yeah But I actually don't think it's as complex as people are making it. I actually, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I actually put him in the same boys club because he really only reacts strongly.
00:45:32
Speaker
again, we're going into spoiler territories is when another character dies. Daisuke is his intern. Yeah. When Daisuke dies, Swansea loses his mind.
00:45:45
Speaker
And it's just interesting to me that these men are really only acting and responding to each other. They're not responding to Anya. They're responding to other guys that they care about. Swansea is upset, so upset,
00:46:00
Speaker
about Daisuke that he but tries to attack Jimmy. ah Curly is upset, but he takes that upset to Jimmy. Nobody is talking to Anya about it. I think i think the only other character that maybe would have shown compassion was Daisuke, but he is maybe too young to carry that kind of weight. I don't think Anya confided in him the way he can the way she confided in the captain.
00:46:25
Speaker
you know and the captain One thing about Swansea in this scenario that I will mention is he does find out about Anya and Swansea and Daisuke's death at the same time.
00:46:39
Speaker
He does, yes. He learns of Anya's death, then immediately Daisuke dies. Yes. Or, well, Daisuke becomes... this is This is a really disturbing part.
00:46:53
Speaker
Daisuke becomes... um ma like he gets maimed and becomes potentially fatally injured. Yeah. And
00:47:05
Speaker
Anya has told Jimmy, Anya, who at this point is dead, Yeah. I'll talk about that too. um With all the painkillers that were meant for Curly, that they'd been saving for Curly and they'd been feeding Curly.
00:47:19
Speaker
Anya had told Jimmy that you cannot use mouthwash as a disinfectant because there's too much sugar content. It'll cause an infection. And it shows how little Jimmy cares about Anya's opinion or expertise because He dumps mouthwash all over Daisuke.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah. and Swansea, who does listen to Anya and does take her seriously, immediately says, well, you've basically, you've just killed him. He's like, whether he was going to survive or not, he, you, now he's going to be covered in infections fucking kills him with an ax to the face.
00:48:05
Speaker
Yeah. Which was definitely more than he needed to do. Yeah, it's definitely a mercy killing. And something I clocked about that is his name being Swansea and his keychain having a swan on it.
00:48:22
Speaker
And swans kill their children when they are infected. When they're sick, about to die, they will actually do a mercy killing on their children. Right.
00:48:34
Speaker
And I feel like that's what he did there. And that's why people think he is a very complex character. He kind of shown this kind of ah grumpy, angry side toward Daisuke, who's just a young kid, you know, just trying to do his job.
00:48:47
Speaker
But that he looked at him like a son. Like a son. um And that kind of, yeah. Well, ah a thing that we also find out at this time is that Swansea has been refusing to let anybody into the utility room and the utility room holds like cryogenic pods so every the food's going to run out within five months i think and you can stay alive in the cryogenic pod for i think two years
00:49:23
Speaker
20. Maybe 20 years. 20 years. 20, yep. um So you have a ah much higher chance of getting rescued. but like Again, but ah before you starve to death.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah. If you go into the cryogenic pod. And Swansea's been saving the cryogenic pod. Jimmy, who is selfish, assumes other people are selfish. So when he sees this pod, he assumes Swansea's been saving it for himself.
00:49:48
Speaker
Yeah. There's a lot of theories that Swansea was saving it for either Anya. Or Daisuke, and then,
00:49:58
Speaker
again, loses both of them immediately, one after the other. and Yeah. That being what causes him to lose his mind. Yes.
00:50:09
Speaker
I do think it's still unfortunate that he knew about what happened. there's There's a part earlier in the game where it's implied that Anya told Swansea what happened.
00:50:21
Speaker
So he knew about this beforehand, before she died. And he still didn't keep her safe. He still got more upset at, I think, losing Daisuke.
00:50:34
Speaker
I do think that it might have something to do with why he carried the axe around, though. He didn't start carrying the axe around everywhere immediately.
00:50:46
Speaker
Yeah. Right? he He would not let Jimmy have the axe. Correct, yeah. For most of the game. Right. Yeah. And Swansea has this philosophy.
00:51:01
Speaker
And this is this is going to tie into the capitalism stuff that I'm going to get into. um Swansea has this sort of philosophy that we spend our whole lives trying to build something important out of ourselves and trying to create a life for the future and for other people.
00:51:22
Speaker
And something like this can happen. And it was all for nothing. Yeah. And so he throws away, ah ah think, something like a decade of sobriety.
00:51:35
Speaker
Yes. For, because he's like, we're all going to die. I guess I've been sober for nothing. And so by the time he lets Jimmy have the axe, by the time Anya tells him about the rape, by the time and he lets Jimmy into... Well, he doesn't let Jimmy into the utility room. This is another thing we should talk about with Jimmy. is He's always talking about solving problems, but all of his problems... Every problem he solves involves...
00:52:07
Speaker
Taking agency away from somebody else. Correct. He gets into the utility room by getting Swansea wasted ah Yeah. By mixing alcohol, ah rubbing alcohol with his drink.
00:52:19
Speaker
So by the time Swansea is in the position to be of any help to anybody, he... has already sort of given up on life, yeah given up on humanity, given up on himself, and no longer is in his right head, right? He's just drunk on mouthwash at all times.
00:52:44
Speaker
Yeah. um
00:52:48
Speaker
But we don't have confirmation, but he's saving. The only thing that he's trying to do at this point is run out the clock and int until everybody is close to dead.
00:53:04
Speaker
So we can throw one person in the cryogenic chamber. Yeah. And it's not going to be himself. It's not going to be Jimmy. Um,
00:53:14
Speaker
It's likely either Anya or Daisuke, and I think it's clear in the narrative that he doesn't know which, and that is one of the things that makes him upset.
00:53:27
Speaker
Not to me. To me, it's clear that it is Daisuke. Okay. I think it all because he just strangely, and one of the last things he does is he talks to to Jimmy about what exactly what you're saying about the sobriety. And the only person he even mentions is Daisuke and getting him off this rock and giving this guy a life.
00:53:51
Speaker
He doesn't mention Anya. He has no sadness towards that situation. I think that's very strange. Yeah. but And I'm not even saying that Swansea is a bad guy. sure I'm not saying that. I think this happens a lot. I think that women in circles, they'll get harassed or assaulted, and and yet guys will kind of still band and kind of look after each other.
00:54:17
Speaker
Maybe he was just thinking that Daisuke was the youngest person. Sure. of the group and that and that's why but i do think it's interesting that they all kind of just take care of themselves and i do i do want to piggyback off of you saying like jimmy is constantly trying to quote take responsibility Yes, that is different than him trying to fix things. These are two different phrases right that are said a lot in the game. Yes. and He's trying to do both, right? He's trying to fix things. He's trying to take responsibility for things.
00:54:50
Speaker
And even this is also very infuriating. um He is always still looking out for either himself or trying to take responsibility for what happened to Curly. Yes.
00:55:04
Speaker
Yes. Swansea does mention Anya to Jimmy. It's when he's trying to kill Jimmy. He's chasing. There's a scene where he's chasing Jimmy around and he tells him. Yeah.
00:55:15
Speaker
Anya told me all sorts of things. Right. But that that's is exactly why he could have done something before. Right. so But he chose not to. It seems clear that he told... This is the other thing about... This is the other reason why I do have ah give Swansea some benefit of the doubt.
00:55:34
Speaker
is It is... um So this all happens at, what, five months? And I believe it's four months... Five months after the crash? And it's four months after the crash where we know for sure that Swansea has been told because yeah he is found...
00:55:54
Speaker
having secret conversations with Anya. Yeah. And the two are plotting something together. And I think during that conversation,
00:56:05
Speaker
i believe you can read it in a way that he has told Anya about the pod. And Anya is the only person he's confided in about the pod.
00:56:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That is a thing I don't think I don't know is true, but it's a thing that I think very well could be true. Yeah. And it is potential. There's a potential that Anya, if he was saving it for Daisuke, which I think you're probably right, um that was a decision that was made with Anya.
00:56:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think it probably was. But I also think that that kind of says something really interesting, right? Is that a woman is now expected to sacrifice her trauma for a dude.
00:56:51
Speaker
Again, i think that's, that's, that's very interesting. Again, I don't think that Swansea is a bad guy character. i think he is looking out for a younger character that he interprets as one, one of his own, like a Swan would.
00:57:05
Speaker
And so don't think he's a bad character. i think that, He's both complex and common at the same time, where again, you know, where a woman's problems are swept aside for for something else that's maybe a little bit more important, even though in hindsight, this was pretty important. Something needed to be done immediately, not a month later.
00:57:27
Speaker
Right. So but tragically, Anya is traumatized by what happened. ah She was not only assaulted, but now they are stuck in space. She has to take care of Curly, who is who, frankly, I don't think even wants to be kept alive. i don't think anybody would. Right.
00:57:47
Speaker
um So she does take her own life with an oxycodone overdose, which is a painkiller. Right. I'm not going to get into this too much, but and this is something that always bothers me in any media. So don't take this as ah as like a ah hard critique of the game.
00:58:03
Speaker
That's not how painkillers work. ah You can't just take painkillers and die. ah You will slowly die. Yeah. Maybe in two days. um Spoken from suicide survivor.
00:58:15
Speaker
So that kind of took me out of it a little bit. But that's a me problem. That's not a you problem. That's a me problem. And I'll concede to that. um But she does overdose. She locks herself in the medical room with Curly and takes all of the all of the painkillers.
00:58:32
Speaker
And, you know, Daisuke notices this right away. And he goes to Jimmy and says she locked herself in the room. Something I don't know what she's going to do. Something bad's going to happen. And so we try to get her to open the door, but not really.
00:58:44
Speaker
Jimmy's just like, open the door. And Anya makes a quip about, i shit you're right, I should have done this before when you told me. Meaning at some point, Jimmy told her to kill herself, which is horrific and terrible.
00:58:59
Speaker
um And even when you find her passed away, her at first, her body's blurred out. Like, it's really smart. You can't see it. You go into the room. They set it up as if you don't know if she killed herself.
00:59:16
Speaker
Or she killed... Or Curly, yeah. Like, it seems as if she's killing Curly. And that's what... Yeah. That's what Jimmy assumes. Yeah.
00:59:27
Speaker
And that's what we, the player, are supposed to assume. So the two are both blurred out and you don't know which happened. Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's knowing what you do in retrospect, it's just clear that he doesn't even notice her.
00:59:43
Speaker
He doesn't even care, won't even look at her, doesn't acknowledge her existence, her body. And that's even that's even made more relevant ah later when you are able to go into the room and you do see that she's overdosed.
00:59:58
Speaker
You can't even look at her. The controls are not even there. You won't do anything. Jimmy will not do shit to look at this. And that's kind of where the strange, where he kind of has a strange definition of A, fixing things, and B, taking responsibility.
01:00:17
Speaker
Because he never does with the ah with Anya. In fact, he doesn't even really focus on the assault. He focuses on, oh, I crashed the ship. I gotta fix this. Curly, you can still be a good captain.
01:00:30
Speaker
I'm gonna put i'm goingnna fix this. I'm gonna put you in in the and the cryopod. Which is like, so you've still not taken responsibility for this woman. You're just trying to help another dude, even at the end, who doesn't even want to live?
01:00:44
Speaker
Infuriating. To be clear to the listeners, at the end of the game, his his final act is to put Curly in that final cryopod and then shoot himself.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, which honestly is such an easy way out. I definitely subscribe to the idea that there are worse things than death. And one of those things is living with guilt or torture or suffer, which he just gets to...
01:01:17
Speaker
To not have to do anymore. But I did the way, dude, Matt, the way I was infuriated when he's like, I'm not going to acknowledge this Anya thing that happened. That's not even my fault.
01:01:30
Speaker
I'm going to make it up to Curly, this other fucking dude, who, again, i don't think wants to be alive. He's just suffering this entire game. And I also think it says something that even though Curly was...
01:01:44
Speaker
not helpful right he he was complicit um not helpful not supportive enough to anya he is not the one that deserved to be at be um what's not attacked but what's the word i'm looking for injured injured like yeah incredibly incredibly critically injured and i think that's interesting too The guy who is maybe more complacent is the one who got the most hurt out of what happened. Because I think i think it goes without saying that this is why Jimmy crashed the ship.
01:02:19
Speaker
He did something shitty. He was going to Curly was going to talk to him about it. And he decided this was going to hurt his, you know, his ah reputation after they land. It's going to hurt Curly's reputation. So don't worry.
01:02:32
Speaker
I'll fix it. by crashing us and sending us all to our death. And that way no one will ever notice. Yes. No one will know that we're quote, we're both bad people.
01:02:43
Speaker
And I just think it's so interesting that the one who committed the worst atrocity, because lets let's be honest, you know, being complacent about something is still not the same as being the abuser. It's not the same as being the one who did the rape.
01:02:59
Speaker
So literally every other person is suffering. Except Jimmy. It's the the way that I was just like, oh, I was so infuriated. But also like, yeah, I get it.
01:03:11
Speaker
This is exactly what happens. It's exactly what's happened to me, um especially like in early days when I was like of of woman talking about video games in a male dominated space.
01:03:25
Speaker
Men will look after each other. They will not look after you. I'm not saying that about you, Matt. Matt is actually a really good guy. no for real. I wouldn't do a podcast with an asshole, right?
01:03:37
Speaker
But in in my direct experience, that is how I felt. That they will look out for each other and they will... kind of deflect responsibility by taking responsibility for something that they didn't even need to do.
01:03:54
Speaker
but and i'm I'm not immune to this, right? like Like all of us, you know, i think one of the things about one of the things about addressing sexism and misogyny um is acknowledging, and i would i would I would suggest this to both our male and
Capitalism Critique in 'Mouthwashing'
01:04:12
Speaker
female listeners, that even those of us who are deeply feminist is all of us are guilty of it no matter how much you think you're not there are this is the culture you spent your whole life in you have absorbed some of it i promise you and i promise you no matter how much you've analyzed and worked out of your own head there's more
01:04:34
Speaker
So it's a lifelong, same with racism, right? These are lifelong processes. You never being anti-sexist, being anti-racist, being a feminist. These are verbs.
01:04:45
Speaker
These are not nouns or these are not adjectives. You will never be those things. You're always working to be those things. You're always having to re-examine your assumptions. You're always having to re-examine your behaviors under the, did did I,
01:05:03
Speaker
you know Is that truly the belief I have or is that from a sexist assumption or yeah racist assumption or whatever? really connected with it, obviously. like I hope not speaking about it two ah in an upset way ah because though it is infuriating to me, it's infuriating because of how much it, it resonated with me. That's why I'm frustrated. And it's, I'm almost speaking about it and getting a little bit of relief from it you because that means the person who wrote it gets it and, and understands and,
01:05:43
Speaker
And this was a female writer who, um and, you know, there's a lot of people who talk about this as being a, about the video game industry, because this is written by Johanna Kassarinen, who's a, you know, the, one of the artists and designers and writers for Wrong Organ, who's the developer.
01:06:07
Speaker
And she wrote the game How Fish is Made also. And, you know, she's a woman in games. She has been part of these boys clubs where they all protected each other and they all rallied around each other and they ignored her.
01:06:24
Speaker
Right. Like we can. Even the good guys. Even the good guys are absolutely protecting each other. Yeah. So.
01:06:33
Speaker
I do think i want i want to let you i want to continue to let you have all the space you need to talk about this, but there are some other layers to this game that we need to discuss.
01:06:45
Speaker
I'm going to segue into those layers because the thing I'm going kind of end on... Because I could talk about more stuff. i'm I'm not going to. I might talk about way more in the video that I'm working on about this game.
01:06:58
Speaker
I do want to talk about the mouthwash. And that's going to lead into, I think, a parallel theme that you're going to discuss. So again, you are hauling just endless amounts of mouthwash. And this mouthwash is not like any other mouthwash. It's super high in sugar content. It's 14% ethanol.
01:07:17
Speaker
It's it's toxic. ah And the advertising is that what is it called? Like dragon breath? magwa yeah Dragon fire. And that this mouthwash will not leave any trace behind.
01:07:33
Speaker
It will leave your breath fiery fresh. And I'm like, that's interesting because that's what Jimmy is trying to do. He's trying to get rid of a problem, cover it up without a trace, but ultimately making it worse, burning everything down, you know, fire and burning it all down, leaving things without any evidence that something bad even happened.
01:07:57
Speaker
I think like Jimmy covering up things is such a big theme to mouthwash temporarily covering up a problem like bad breath or something like that. So that's that's why I think it's mouthwash. It's it's kind of in line with um Jimmy just trying to cover up all his problems with a fix that's not going to fix it. It's just not.
01:08:22
Speaker
It may look good. It may smell good, but it's not going to fix it. and But also, in regards to what I think you're going to bring up, mouthwash is such like a mundane, pretty pointless thing to haul in bulk.
01:08:36
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that's what i'm I was going to... that That's the first thing I thought about. like Why mouthwash? Why is it called mouthwashing? why is Why are they hauling mouthwash? And I think what you're saying is absolutely true, number number one.
01:08:55
Speaker
It is a temporary solution to a deeper problem. Yeah. um And that is all that Jimmy knows how to do. I think Jimmy is maybe the most hated game character I've ever seen online, by the way. Man, it's rough in those comments. i will I will have some stuff to say about about that too, I think. Yeah.
01:09:19
Speaker
Because there's another thing that is repeated throughout this game that I think is really important. which is so before I get into the capitalism metaphor, I think maybe, maybe now is the time to talk about it. There's another thing that is repeated throughout this game that Curly says, which is our worst moments.
01:09:39
Speaker
Don't make us monsters. And that is meant as a sort of, Hey, don't give up. Don't give up on life. Um,
01:09:53
Speaker
You can, even if you've done something terrible, you can move forward.
01:09:59
Speaker
that That is how Curly means it. Yeah. um Jimmy takes it. As an excuse to do terrible things. Correct. Yeah. Right. He, before he does something terrible, he says to himself, we, uh, our worst moments don't make us monsters.
01:10:16
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so it is not only, it is firstly how he absolves himself. Secondly, how he absolves, curly out loud to everybody else he knows that curly didn't crash the ship but that's what he that's how he um launders how he mouthwashes curly's reputation to all the other crewmates who think that curly was the one who crashed the ship is yeah he repeats our worst ah moments don't make us monsters and he makes other people repeat it and
01:10:50
Speaker
i think That is why we play as Jimmy. Yeah. Because
01:11:01
Speaker
ah monster behaves the way it behaves because that's in its nature. And because it can't do anything else. A Dracula.
01:11:12
Speaker
A Dracula's got to bite a neck. It's the only way it can survive. Yeah. A Frankenstein has to chase little girls. That's all it can do. No, we made friends with the little girl. I'm like, what are you talking about? Made friends with the little... Frankenstein has to make friends with little girls and chase villagers. That's all I know is how to do a This is... That's what it is to be a monster.
01:11:38
Speaker
But humans aren't monsters.
01:11:42
Speaker
Humans make decisions. Yeah. They are in charge of their actions. And they can change those actions at any time. And Jimmy... Could have chosen other things at any time.
01:11:55
Speaker
He's not just a monster who has to do these things. yeah So. even think that like even. i even think after the assault happened.
01:12:07
Speaker
He could have done something. Yes. There's a million things he could have done. And I think like, you know, I'm just speaking, I'm speaking for myself here and maybe other, you know, survivors and victims can relate to this.
01:12:18
Speaker
But for a long time, I waited for an apology that never came. i was just going to say he could have apologized. Yeah. And I know that sounds trite. And that's why I'm speaking about it, from it like frankly, from my experience. Because i truly... so now some some victims don't want that.
01:12:38
Speaker
And that's not what's going to help them heal, obviously. Because you know what? An abuser is rarely going to apologize. ah It's it's ah an apology that doesn't come, right? But for me, for a long time,
01:12:51
Speaker
i I like fantasize and idealized getting an apology, how much that would mean to me yeah that somebody would take accountability, that somebody even even after such a traumatic event, it would still mean something. It would still relieve me of something. Yeah.
01:13:08
Speaker
And it just never came. And it's not an apology is an absolution. It's just an admission of guilt. And he could have. Admitted his guilt.
01:13:19
Speaker
He never did. Never did. He take responsibility for it. The only thing, and that's flashes on the screen a million times, take responsibility, and he's only taking responsibility for what he did to Curly. Yeah.
01:13:29
Speaker
Kind of what he did to the crew, but barely. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. and never what he did to Anya.
01:13:40
Speaker
so making you play as Jimmy, I think hammers home that idea. He's making choices. You have to do these things.
01:13:51
Speaker
You as the player keep wanting to not do some of the shit that you have to do. Yeah. I don't want to any of that. It felt terrible. But it becomes the only option because that's all Jimmy will let you do.
01:14:03
Speaker
Correct. it's not It's not the only option. You don't have to you
01:14:11
Speaker
to. You know when you're steering the ship into the asteroid. Right. Or the planet or whatever it is. You know you could have gone the other direction.
01:14:22
Speaker
But Jimmy wouldn't let you. Yeah. The same as he controlled everyone else, he's controlling you, the player. And again, he's making choices. And i think it is really important when we, not only is it important for thinking of a life after mistakes, which ah you know is something i don't think we should ask of victims, but I think is something that we can ask of the rest of, that we can ask of, say, people we know.
01:14:53
Speaker
Yeah. Or care about. That there there is a life after mistakes. And one of the re the one of the things to... um ah One of the the first steps towards seeing that in somebody else is realizing they're not a monster. They made a bad choice or a series of bad choices.
01:15:12
Speaker
um But it is also important to realize that about...
01:15:21
Speaker
Ourselves and each other is that nothing is a foregone conclusion in our behavior. Yeah. We are not programmed to harm people.
01:15:35
Speaker
Harming somebody is a choice you're making. So anyway, I think that's the last thing I want to say about Jimmy. Yeah. um And actually kind of the last thing I want to say about this crew at all um because I think there's another villain in this game.
01:15:54
Speaker
Yes. And that villain is Pony Express. Yes. There's parallels with how the crew treated each other, right? There's a lack of human caring that happens in a capitalist system system the exact same way, like caring about individuals the exact same way as um in a patriarchy.
01:16:17
Speaker
the culture at large or individuals will refuse to care about women ah women right and the agency and the suffering of women so let's start with the very beginning here right they're sending crews crews of people out for a full year of their lives yeah To cart mouthwash across the galaxy. And this is why the crew loses their minds when they see yeah if they see what they're car carting is mouthwash.
01:16:53
Speaker
They've given up now. They're giving up the rest of their lives, right? They're going to die. And yeah they're reacting to it in the moment. The shallow read of it is they're reacting because they can't use mouthwash for anything, right? It's not food.
01:17:07
Speaker
It's not medicine. Yeah. It's not. It's not anything. An escape pod, right? it is It is something that they can't use. But. Hey, it it's it's another temporary fix for Swansea because right the only real thing that they're using it for is to get a little drunk.
01:17:25
Speaker
Yes. Well, Swansea is. Swansea is getting very drunk. Swansea, yeah, he's getting plastered. So this is that this is the part where they all start to spiral into complete madness because
01:17:39
Speaker
they realize that this has all been pointless. This tragedy that they're in is completely meaningless. No one needed this mouthwash. No one needs mouthwash. Yeah, especially mouthwash that is just sugar. but Right. And I mean, and most mouthwash has a lot of sugar in it. Like, this is not just this mouthwash. This is a normal thing about mouthwash.
01:18:03
Speaker
And so... The company is asking people to give up all this time of their lives. And another thing that happens that we didn't talk about is ah couple... What?
01:18:17
Speaker
I guess it's like ah around 100 days into this 382-day trip, the company contacts Curly and tells him that they are...
01:18:34
Speaker
Getting out of the transport business. Yeah. And everybody's losing their jobs. Yes. Except for Curly. Yes. and And I do want to say that this happened, I think, before the assault.
01:18:49
Speaker
So we talk when we talk about like this making people actually lose their minds, I think it really did. And it it was just avoidable altogether. Well, so it does make Jimmy lose his mind because Jimmy's take on this and he says it, says as much to Curly, he's like, you act, basically you act like we're in this together, but we're not.
01:19:15
Speaker
We live completely different lives. After this, after this trip, you're going to move on to better days. Us?
01:19:26
Speaker
Anya? Curly? Daisuke? Well, Daisuke is a slightly different story because he is... He comes from a rich family and they're basically sending him on this crew to ah get some life experience before he yeah goes back to being just a rich kid.
01:19:44
Speaker
I also think Jimmy's being presumptuous and that just dice game will be okay. he's He's very victimizing it up right now. Sure.
01:19:54
Speaker
Yeah. well Also, he's under – I mean, he's right about Curly. or ah Sorry. He's right about Swansea. Swansea feels the same yeah way about himself. Yeah.
01:20:04
Speaker
It's not clear that he's right about Anya. Right. A couple characters during the course of the game say that Anya's a bad nurse. And it's possible she is.
01:20:16
Speaker
We don't know her skills as a nurse. But it's also impossible to tell based on what she's been through and the things that are being asked of her. So, you know, I don't think...
01:20:33
Speaker
I don't think that any of these points hinge on whether or not Anya was a good nurse. Right. But ah whatever the case, Jimmy doesn't think that she is. So thinks that, you know, Anya is not going to be able to find work after this.
01:20:53
Speaker
Swansea. It's not going to be able to find work after this. Me, Jimmy, I'm not going be able to find work after this. What he says is, and I really love this quote. He's like, the top of our ladder, the top rung of our ladder the bottom rung of yours.
01:21:08
Speaker
Yeah. There's a just a deep cruelty about doing this in the first place, about not informing them. Of this huge change that's going to occur in their lives until they're 140 days Mm-hmm.
01:21:25
Speaker
into this journey they're going to be unemployed when they get back home. You know what i mean? It's not like they can't start applying for jobs. Now they're on the ship in the middle of space.
01:21:36
Speaker
In addition to that, there's all these things when you're going around the ship. Um, and they're, they're, they're kind of funny at first where it's like, there'll be a poster that says, um, be careful when lifting a box, not to injure yourself. And it's like, and then if you look closer, there's small text that says, uh,
01:21:56
Speaker
remember that all injuries are go like all any medical supplies that you use to treat an injury will be docked from your pay. and so It's just that concept of like, no, really don't injure yourself. Cause we don't want to take responsibility for that shit.
01:22:11
Speaker
Exactly. There's something that's like, make sure you get enough rest. ah ah ah A well-rested employee is a happy employee. And then underneath it's like, you are, ah you know, you're not allotted more than five hours of sleep per night.
01:22:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, This is a company that does not care about these people. And if you're in doubt of that, they're on It's five months after the crash is when this game ends.
01:22:43
Speaker
Yeah. Nobody has come to rescue them. Yeah. And five months is longer than it took them to get here. Took them 147 days to get to where they are.
01:22:56
Speaker
yeah It is five months is at 150 days. Yeah. ah hundred and fifty days yeah So they could have been rescued by now.
01:23:08
Speaker
Yeah, they could have been. They aren't rescued. Yeah, it's just clear that they're working for a company that does not give a shit about them. And i think when you live
Finding Purpose Beyond Capitalism
01:23:19
Speaker
I think when you live in a ah and as a society, and in a capitalist society that doesn't care, you also take that in and you also don't care, right?
01:23:30
Speaker
And i'm not I'm not standing up or sympathizing with Jimmy in in any way because he is – the villain here, but it's easy to understand why people who don't feel cared about also just don't care about other people. You know, it leaks onto other people, this kind of kind of bigger picture thing. I agree.
01:23:51
Speaker
And a villain can be a victim. In fact, most often they are. Yes. Right? Yes. um most people are doing Most people that do horrible things are doing horrible things because they're Horrible things have been done to them and they, you know, processed them poorly or they yeah um feel powerless and then want to transfer that powerlessness on to other people, which is, I think, the case for Jimmy.
01:24:15
Speaker
Or, you know, they are ah deprived and desperate. Of many things, of of kindness, affection, love, purpose, or, you know, material things, right?
01:24:29
Speaker
Why do people mug other people? It's not because they love it. It's because they feel desperate, right? Right. So I think all of these characters are victims of this system. And I think exactly what you're saying, because of this, there's a lot of scenes in this game where you are watching characters Capitalist propaganda on TV screens.
01:24:53
Speaker
Are those real, by the way? Yes. Okay. So they weren't made for the game. The game is showing you ah like real animated cartoons and real clips.
01:25:06
Speaker
Correct. I don't know that that's true about all of them, but I know that there is a there's a cartoon that you see in this game about the about how work gives your life meaning, basically.
01:25:19
Speaker
Okay. um And I've seen that cartoon before. Oh, have you? That's so interesting. So this was, yeah, this was like 1940s, I think, nineteen s propaganda about capitalism, right? It was, they were fighting, i guess it was fifty s Because they were fighting communism at the time.
01:25:44
Speaker
Right? And so they were trying to you know indoctrinate American youth into capitalist system. Yeah. So that that is a theme for this game. It's about how work... but These people are told their whole lives that work is what makes what gives their lives meaning.
01:26:01
Speaker
yeah Climbing up a ladder, a corporate ladder. of you know um Bringing home money to support... your life and lifestyle.
01:26:12
Speaker
And as Swansea recognizes, the moment they open up that cart cargo hold and see the mouthwash, Swansea instantly realizes, number one, they don't care about us. We're not going to get rescued. Number two, I've wasted my life because I have i bought the capitalist idea. I bought the quote-unquote American dream.
01:26:39
Speaker
The two, you know, the two car garage, dog, ah two and a half kids, a wife and a basketball hoop in the driveway.
01:26:51
Speaker
i I bought that myth and it was empty. It was as empty as this job in which I have been for 147 days now.
01:27:03
Speaker
And clearly now for the rest of my life, transporting mouthwash. yeah Yeah. um And i do want I do want to say it's not just the the pressure to work, right? Because I think it is very satisfying to to do stuff. I'm i'm a creative.
01:27:21
Speaker
I like working in the creative space. And that does give me a purpose. But like in the 50s and 60s, it wasn't just get a job to feel good about yourself. Right. That's not what it is. It's you need to keep hustling all the time and be the best. It's like Jimmy said, right? They were always going to be on that bottom rung.
01:27:41
Speaker
Well, I think, yes. And I think it's defining yourself by work yeah and defining yourself by um the striving for these These goals rather than living as yourself in the moment and enjoying things.
01:28:03
Speaker
Swansea has a big long speech about how you know he was a bad person, violent person, and this is how he can recognize it in Jimmy.
01:28:16
Speaker
He's a bad person. He's a violent person. He was an alcoholic and he gave up alcohol and he got himself a job. He cleaned himself up.
01:28:26
Speaker
Got a wife, had some kids, tried to be a good dad, tried to be a good husband, tried to be a good employee. and after all that, as now he's facing his death and given up his sobriety and is intentionally drinking himself to death.
01:28:46
Speaker
He realizes that the best days of his life were those horrible days where he was sick on the floor, hungover, picking up another bottle.
01:28:56
Speaker
And i think what the game is trying to say with that speech is not that it is good to be an alcoholic. No, of course not. Not trying to romanticize those things in the way Swansea is.
01:29:11
Speaker
They're trying to use a bad example of this. To illustrate this idea that even a bad life is better than no life, right?
01:29:22
Speaker
Even a bad version of learning how to live in the moment and learning how to enjoy yourself and learning how to just be, just exist in the world where you're not always striving to give other people things and to work for somebody above you or even somebody below you to work together.
01:29:45
Speaker
And be part, like, just be another cog in a system to use a really, ah a cliche that is often employed very glibly, but I think it's zapped here.
01:30:03
Speaker
To be your own machine, living for yourself. um Doing that but poorly, like Swansea was, Is better than doing the other thing well.
01:30:16
Speaker
Yeah. Better than being a good, shiny, well-oiled cog. Yeah. and And what i kind of took away from yeah some of the propaganda that was being shown, the these these really like happy, like, if you just do this, you'll be so happy.
01:30:33
Speaker
it reminded me so heavily. My dad was in Vietnam. um ah He died later from Agent Orange complications. And there's this idea that he was always unhappy to hear and that if he just did this, if he was just a hero,
01:30:51
Speaker
that he would have a great life, right? Yeah. And he he was told that. And then later he dies of the same thing that he was meant to be a hero about. There's this great there's this great song by Roger Whitaker. It's called If.
01:31:05
Speaker
Highly recommend going to listen to it. And it's just this idea that is pushed upon us that if we just do this thing, if we just sacrifice our time and our wants and our energies, that we'll just have a good life. And it's so rarely...
01:31:20
Speaker
is like that so rarely and it's kind of just promoting this all-american dream white picket fence like just do the thing get promoted you'll have a family you can have a kid house it's fine you know and it's just not that's not healthy it's not productive you know it's dehumanizing once yeah once it is dehumanizing because being a human is about living right you know uh it's one thing that it's a another glib thing that people say all the time when they're telling you to live for today live laugh love ah they they bring up this idea of like oh tomorrow you could get hit by a bus
01:32:04
Speaker
And what's glib about that is, yeah, but so you shouldn't drain your savings every day. Right. Absolutely. what's true about it is if you're making yourself miserable to strive
01:32:23
Speaker
and you get hit by bus tomorrow, then you've only known misery, right? Yeah. You should combine... You should make sure you spend time enjoying life basically every day as often as you can because you could get stranded on a fucking asteroid in the middle of space with nothing but mouthwash.
01:32:48
Speaker
Right? Yeah. That probably won't happen to you. and This will not happen to you guys. Just don't don't be alarmed. Not a real fear. But...
01:33:00
Speaker
Something similar could happen to you. There's so many, you could, you know, so many things could happen to us every single day. We want to have had a good day that day.
01:33:11
Speaker
And we want to have had a good yesterday that day, the the day before, right? Yeah. um And a lot of people don't because they expect some reward later on. So one of those videos that you're talking about shows, it casts the company, right?
01:33:28
Speaker
Not Pony Express, but the gen just generically the company. but Any company. All companies.
01:33:39
Speaker
As these heroic figures who... They take care of you. They take care of your ah life by... They take care of your health by giving you health insurance.
01:33:51
Speaker
Which is one of the biggest scams of all time. They take care of your... um They take care of your family by giving you a paycheck. They take care of your...
01:34:03
Speaker
um Leisure. By giving you vacation time. Which, if you think about that, that is so such a perverse thing to say. You're allowed. I'll allow you to have five days.
01:34:15
Speaker
Right. yeah Who's taking me away from vacation but you? Yeah. Right? i We give you vacation time for your leisure. Okay, but not all I would have is leisure if I wasn't having to come in every... Like, that's an absurd thing to say. So... Yeah.
01:34:31
Speaker
And... You know, the invention of health insurance is just to de-socialize meant ah to desocialize medical care in capitalist countries. that is the That is why health insurance was invented. It was, hey, we could profit off of this. And it's the only reason we don't have a single-payer universal health care is because the insurance lobby has been so strong and they were able to convince people that...
01:34:58
Speaker
um the single payer universal healthcare care plans that were being circulated a hundred years ago were quote communism.
01:35:09
Speaker
Yeah. um So anyway, ah sorry, that's, that's me ranting a little bit, but we watch these things in mouthwashing. We watch this thing that just valorizes the, i the corp, the corporation. And, um, and You're watching it knowing that none of those things happened for Daisuke.
01:35:32
Speaker
None of those things happened for Anya. Yeah. None of those things happened for Curly. None of them happened for Swansea. None of them happened for Jimmy.
01:35:41
Speaker
So to me, so when I turned off this game, right, like I understood the Anya plotline.
01:35:54
Speaker
i understood what had happened to Anya. I understood the tragedy of it. I understood how Jimmy sucked. um Yeah. But I hadn't digested all the ways that the game was centered around the rape theme.
01:36:12
Speaker
Right. um Because I was focused on this capitalism theme. Yeah. And I just kept, I saw it early on and I just kind of kept plucking out almost ah like many of the same details you did.
01:36:30
Speaker
Yeah. Because i think the game is drawing a parallel between the two. I think it absolutely is. Yeah. um I think it is.
01:36:41
Speaker
Yeah. And we all know capitalism, ah Here, ah two statements that are absolutely true, and you probably heard them before.
01:36:52
Speaker
Well, one of them you might have heard before. Two statements that are absolutely true. Sorry. Start again. it Two statements that are absolutely true. Capitalism is worse for women than it is for men.
01:37:03
Speaker
Another statement that's true. Misogyny hurts men as much as it hurts women. Absolutely, it does. And I think the reason we're able to draw a metaphor between both of these, things between those two themes is because those two things are true.
01:37:23
Speaker
Yes, I agree. And do do you remember the the one thing I texted you that you didn't clock and you were, your mind was like blown for a second?
01:37:35
Speaker
ah Remind me. All right. I don't know if you want to
Symbolism and Mechanics in 'Mouthwashing'
01:37:38
Speaker
talk about it or not, but um Pony Express has a mascot. I guess it's a pony. I when I saw it, I thought it was a moose.
01:37:48
Speaker
Is it pony? OK, it's a very weird looking pony. It does look kind of like a moose, but there's so much pony imagery. There's a point. I also want to say this game is scary. This game is scary, and there are there are absurd scenes, like you're being chased by a ghost pony at one point, yeah and it's scary. yeah It's scary, yeah.
01:38:06
Speaker
Maybe we should talk about the mechanics at the very end, because it is my only criticism of this game. yeah mean about why it' some of this game Yeah, why it's a it's a good... Oh, or or critique it. um And that'll maybe work as a little bit of a palate cleanser, too. We'll we'll do a bit of more of our own objective. I mean, it's always going to be subjective. But you know what I mean, more on mechanic.
01:38:26
Speaker
um but But yeah, that there's a mascot. I guess it's a pony. It's very weird-looking pony. a weird-looking pony. And in the beginning of the game...
01:38:38
Speaker
You are running around playing as Jimmy in the kind of this very dreamy, but horrifying. Let's not say dreamy. Let's say nightmare scape type of thing. And you keep running into this mascot, this little pony, and you hear a baby crying in the background as you do. And every and the last time you find the pony, it is disfigured.
01:38:58
Speaker
yeah Well, you find this pony, ah her name is Polly, or he I think it's ah Her name is Polly, and you meet Polly at the end of the game. It kind of personifies, and Jimmy's losing its mind into his mind now and talking to this mascot. And it's the it's the only character who speaks truth Jimmy. Correct.
01:39:17
Speaker
It's the only character that speaks at all. That's true, too. It's the only character that has a voice. And I think that that kind of represents... for For Jimmy and for the player, the unborn child you know that didn't get a chance, they are the most innocent one in the story. And thus they do have a voice that is uncorrupt because they didn't they didn't do anything.
01:39:42
Speaker
And yeah, you're right. it It is the only character that not only has a speaking voice, everything else is unvoiced, but also is telling the truth you know to Jimmy. And I just think that's really interesting.
01:39:54
Speaker
its It says take responsibility and Jimmy says I am. ah you know, like, And it's basically, I can't remember the quotes, right? But it basically says something like.
01:40:05
Speaker
Then why are you still concerned with him? Yeah. It's not about Curly, dude. Yeah. It's not about Curly. Right? Like when he's like, our what he says our worst moments don't make us monsters. And the thing's basically like, that doesn't apply to you right now. It does not.
01:40:24
Speaker
And, you know, and again, what it's saying to him is like,
01:40:30
Speaker
That doesn't – sorry, just to back up, just to repeat, what it means by that is it doesn't apply to you because you're talking about something you haven't even done yet.
01:40:45
Speaker
It doesn't absolve you of future crimes or crimes you're committing currently. It means you can be better than your worst mistakes.
01:40:58
Speaker
Yes. It doesn't mean if I make, if I do something terrible, I'm still a good person. Right. Like, you can't, you can't, anyway.
01:41:10
Speaker
I'm mad at Jimmy. But yeah, I texted that to you when we were talking to the mask and we're talking about the mask. And I'm like, yeah, it has a voice. It's the only one. Well, so I think it makes a lot of sense that it is a represent, it represents the unborn child.
01:41:27
Speaker
Yeah. um and You're being chased. Yeah, like you said, you're being chased by it at the beginning when you are Jimmy. you don't even know you're Jimmy. And at that time, you're also hearing sounds of like a baby crying and you don't know why. You think it's just trying to unsettle you, which it is, but it's also making a point here. And think there's something the metaphor here and i think there
01:41:52
Speaker
there's something there's something to the metaphor here ah but This baby was forced upon Anya. She didn't want it.
01:42:04
Speaker
Happened through non-consensual means. And... you'll never... It'll never Because... know, Jimmy...
01:42:19
Speaker
life because you know jimmy created yeah but you know was half of what created it but also killed it yeah by crashing the ship yeah um and driving on you to suicide both things yeah both things yep you can draw a parallel between that and the mouthwash itself it is a thing they didn't know that they were being made they were yeah you know they were kind of tricked into carrying it it's a thing that'll never reach its destination
01:42:51
Speaker
yeah It is a symbol of the cruelty that's been done to them. And
01:43:01
Speaker
yeah think that is, think, yeah, I think there's a, there's a strong connection between, you know, the cargo and the horse and the unborn baby.
01:43:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's very well done in terms of psychological horror.
01:43:28
Speaker
So let's talk about mechanics for a little bit. Do we have to? Listen, I struggled, okay? It was a struggle for me with these mechanics.
01:43:38
Speaker
This game is mostly a walking sim. You're basically walking around and talking to people. Yeah. Looking at stuff. You are doing objectives, but don't look at this like ah fetch quest thing. It's not quite like that.
01:43:54
Speaker
it's You are progressing the story by doing objectives, but it's they're they're very easy. And there's very, very simple puzzles like yeah yeah you have to...
01:44:06
Speaker
Here's another thing. There's all sorts of stuff like the cargo and certain supplies and the sweetener that are locked behind a code that only the captain can read with a, like a code reader. Yeah.
01:44:23
Speaker
Which is silly because you fucking stand behind the captain. You see the code and now you know how to get the sweetener. It's just, but it's, it's just a conceit. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, So, yeah, very simple little puzzles like that.
01:44:37
Speaker
But there's, like, other stuff. Like, there is a first-person shooter sequence that sucks. God, I – dude, I'm so glad that you're saying that because I failed so many times.
01:44:50
Speaker
I don't even – I played this game with my son. Don't worry, everybody is 20 years old. um i I – he is a – pro at like he he played overwatch not literal pro but he played overwatch like for a long time and he played a lot of fortnight and stuff yeah so he should be good at this right yeah so i gave it to him and he struggled with it but he got it i think he got it after twat too and it was funny to hand him the controller because in the middle of this game that was really deep and really intense and he was doing the sorts of things where he's like stutter stuttering like pulling up the gut like ah
01:45:28
Speaker
aiming and dropping the aim just over and over again in this rapid pattern. And it's like, that just comes naturally to you. Yeah. That's so funny. He just knows how to do it. um And he's like, you know, like edging around the sides of like corners.
01:45:45
Speaker
Where I had no idea how to, so basically this first person shooter thing is Swansea's chasing you with an axe and he keeps sneaking up on you from behind and killing you. To me, it he sneaks up way too fast.
01:45:58
Speaker
Like, it gives you a little bit of a warning. And then as soon as I try to turn around, I'm dead. Yeah, that's how I was. and And my son was sympathetic to that. He was like, wow, that happens really fast. Yeah, it's fast. um But he was so good at it that he was basically just like following Swansea around. Oh, wow. and like ah always knew like For me, i just I had no idea where Swansea was at any given time.
01:46:27
Speaker
Same. And my son was just him. just all like chasing him Damn it, dude. But there's yeah, there's a stealth sequence that is like very opaque too, because you're being chased by something invisible.
01:46:44
Speaker
ah The only thing you know is that you need to be quiet. um But it doesn't tell you, you only have to be quiet when the thing is nearby. Yeah. When it's very far away, you you can run.
01:46:54
Speaker
So I was just walking so slowly through the entire thing. And its so it's slightly maze-like, too. So it took me a long time and it sucked.
01:47:07
Speaker
What are some other bits of gameplay here? Well, I think... There's a chase sequence where you're being chased by a weird monster thing that is... yeah Like a... That's that's like, what?
01:47:21
Speaker
A thousand curlies all turned into like a centipede? I thought it was um the pony, Polly. Polly. Was it Polly that's trying to figure thought, yeah. I thought at that point it was Curly. I don't know. You might be right. I can't remember.
01:47:34
Speaker
um There's a sequence. There's a puzzle sequence where this is a metaphor I don't get. At some point, you serve Curly as if he's cake to the crew. They're all dead at this point. So you're putting them in chairs and...
01:47:55
Speaker
um cutting his leg off and serving it to them on plates. It's unclear if Jimmy eats a piece of him, but what Jimmy does is he feeds a piece of Curly's leg to Curly.
01:48:06
Speaker
To himself, yeah. And he does it later in one of these dream sequence-y things during his hallucination breakdown towards the end. And you have to arrange a series of TV screens so that they all connect.
01:48:22
Speaker
All his digestive tracks connect. I didn't even... I didn't understand that. ah My son figured out for me. I kept turning the things and turning the things. And I was like...
01:48:33
Speaker
I don't get it And he was like, oh, it wraps around. And he sees something. Like, I get that, but I still couldn't see it. Like, I was like, i I don't know if I'm doing this right or not. Like, I don't. I couldn't see it.
01:48:46
Speaker
I couldn't see it until he pointed out that it wrapped around. And then I got it. but okay But from that point.
01:48:55
Speaker
But at that point, i was already sick of it. And like.
01:49:01
Speaker
I almost think this game would have been better served to have just been a walking simulator, yeah do a bunch of tasks.
01:49:13
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I agree. I do see how people might like it because it does cut those slower times with something a little more. you know, something with more adrenaline in it. So I do understand.
01:49:27
Speaker
I just think it was a little too overcompensating. There's also a lot of backtracking. Like, the ship itself is not that big, so that's nice.
01:49:38
Speaker
I enjoy that the that the setting was relatively easy to navigate. But as you're losing your mind, it just seems like the setting gets longer and longer and these hallways don't end and here's a hallway of eyeballs and it's never ending. Oh!
01:49:54
Speaker
So i I'll agree with that. The backtracking didn't bother me, but some sometimes the like incredibly long hallways. Yeah, I think that's what I'm trying to say. It's not the backtracking on the ship.
01:50:05
Speaker
Just running. Just running, yeah. Just having to run for so, so long. Yeah. yeah I agree with that. Yeah. um
01:50:17
Speaker
But this game... if you've somehow listened to this whole thing and haven't played it and are still interested in playing it, I think there's, there's still more to pick up. Like, I think I might replay it at some point, not because it's pleasant. Yeah. No, it's not pleasant.
01:50:35
Speaker
um But because now I know more about it and I'll know to pay attention to certain things. So, again, if you're a person who did listen to this whole thing, hasn't played the game and want to, i think there's still maybe value in it.
01:50:49
Speaker
I think there is value in it. If not, to just to just witness a piece of art, a piece of psychological horror art, I think... Yes. Is good. and You know, it's, it's hard to do horror, man. Like that's why there's so much bad horror out there. It's hard. actually, there's one other thing I did want to get your thoughts on. And that is.
01:51:14
Speaker
Okay. This is probably the only time we're going to talk about this game. but probably not going to bring this up a third time. I'm go to bring it up next week. Oh yeah. I'm kidding. I'm not. um So.
01:51:26
Speaker
want to say two things. One. A lot of this game, yeah like it takes place after this crash, and every... ah A lot of the hull has been sealed with this, like, foam.
01:51:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's such an interesting sci-fi concept that I've never seen before. Oh, okay. Just like large chunks of the hull just sealed with this big foam stuff.
01:51:51
Speaker
Yeah. And so you can't access it. Oh, that was cool. is It was just like a cool little sci-fi concept in the middle of this really intense horror game. um Another thing that I thought was very interesting was there's only one point in the game where we actually see Curly.
01:52:09
Speaker
unharmed right and the the weird sort of twist that curl is like a young guy yeah he's about our age yeah or sorry he's about jimmy's age and
01:52:31
Speaker
just really interesting sort of like this idea of you You go through the entire game thinking like he's this this he's the captain and he's been on this other track his whole life and whatever. you yeah get this ah so You just have this assumption that he's this much older, wiser guy. And he's just a dumb kid.
01:52:51
Speaker
ah yeah Just a dumb, dumb guy. Yeah. Just a bunch of dumb kids. Just a bunch of dumb kids who are like
01:53:00
Speaker
ah thrown into this fucking situation yeah the whole thing's horrifying it's horrifying i yeah yeah and even if jimmy wasn't the the piece of garbage that he is this would still be horrifying Absolutely. Even if the fucking ship didn't crash, it'd be horrifying.
01:53:20
Speaker
Absolutely. whole concept is yeah the horrifying and terrible. And yeah, and I think that's that's that's why, like, you know, Curly, again, he is, he didn't take as much responsibility as needed.
01:53:35
Speaker
But there's, there I think we can say that he also is just a young kid thrown into this thing by society responsibility yeah and how is he supposed to deal with this you know idea he was just put on the same he's putting you know this this thing of this like dual tracks in society yeah he was put on one ladder jimmy was put on another jimmy is
01:54:02
Speaker
it pains me to say jimmy is right to be upset about that he is yes he is correct in that but yeah One of the other things about this game, all the characters are complex.
01:54:13
Speaker
Even the worst guy who is irredeemably bad.
01:54:19
Speaker
There's things to feel sympathetic to him about. There's things he was right about. There's, you know, ways in which he did good.
01:54:30
Speaker
Very few. But there are ways in which he did good yeah this game. It's a
01:54:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's a complex game. It really is. And i I'm not going to say i had fun with it, but what what psychological horror or anything is fun? It's not. i'm
Future Plans and Farewell
01:54:51
Speaker
I'm sorry. It's not. You think I watched Insomnia because I wanted to have fun?
01:54:55
Speaker
No, ah absolutely not. So, and I know it's different because you are playing a game, you are interacting with it. So it's, it can feel even more intense since you're kind of a part of it. You're steering it.
01:55:07
Speaker
Right. But I do think it's worth playing because it really, again, for me, it was almost relieving, cathartic, maybe for you too, or thoughtful, right?
01:55:18
Speaker
For sure. or provocative in a way, maybe. So I really do think it is like a work, ah truly like a work of art. And I know everyone's saying that this this game got very popular, but I do believe that to be true, that it is a very artfully done game.
01:55:34
Speaker
i I agree. I think it is i think it is a a ah small masterpiece. Yeah, yeah. I think it is.
01:55:44
Speaker
think it's a a really...
01:55:48
Speaker
It was a really important piece of work. Yeah. We should probably say that if you're still here... We're not going to – we were going to cover another game in this episode.
01:56:01
Speaker
We are not going to have time to do that. No. But we are going to cover it next episode. We're going to cover it next week. Yeah. Maybe we'll find a second game to do. Maybe we'll just – that'll be the theme, right? Yeah. Do two games every week for Spooky Month.
01:56:16
Speaker
Yeah. But, I mean, there's just so much to talk about about mouthwashing. And people in the Discord, yeah you've been – begging for more mouth-washing talk all week so hey you fucking got it there you go and don't and don't forget i will be doing a video on a video from roses yeah so where i will talk even more assume that's why you're subscribed. And if you're not, well, what what are you doing here?
01:56:42
Speaker
yeah yeah Why are you Why are you here? get Get out of here. yeah let me just You're eavesdropping on other people's stuff. Weird. are you being weird?
01:56:54
Speaker
Weird. Get out of here. They're hiding in the corner. get, get. Jerry, Jerry, get out of here. you lurking. All right.
01:57:04
Speaker
Well, if this has been an interesting spooky month because it has has has been, not only have we played a bunch of really incredible games, we've also played a bunch of games that aren't just like spooky, scary monsters.
01:57:18
Speaker
Yeah. We've been playing games that have been just like deeply interesting. Agreed. and where just like straight up and down Halloween style horror yeah is one of the,
01:57:35
Speaker
um least important aspects of them. Yeah. No, that's interesting. And and honestly, just even like playing mouthwashing and then looking at the publisher, really feels like kind of this intense psychological horror is' kind of popular right now. Like people are are appreciating it, I think, especially since we can do so much with the gaming medium.
01:58:05
Speaker
And yeah, I would love to revisit this entire topic.
01:58:11
Speaker
Not mouthwashing. ah Again. Just the psychological horror games. The topic of psychological horror games. Yeah. yeah yeah i would I would too. um I think we'll probably go for ah some lighter horror next week.
01:58:26
Speaker
Because we've had some intense discussions. Yes. Yes. um But.
01:58:35
Speaker
I'm glad we did and I'm glad we played this yeah me too I'm glad you recommended it um Dana in the discord for hi Dana recommending it um I think it's a game that we this game that I already knew about I don't know did you had you heard of it at all yes okay and I kind of filed it as not interested because of the graphic style because of the art style You know, me too. Well, I'd heard that it was more than its graphic style. So, like, I was like, eh, maybe one day. Yeah.
01:59:08
Speaker
But I probably never was going to until it was recommended again. Yeah. And I'm glad we played it. Yeah, me too. Me too.
01:59:21
Speaker
So how should we close this this episode?
01:59:30
Speaker
I remember Kari Mara. That was cute. That was cute. What a cute, cute little thing. Well, a email email us, obviously. MattRoses at gmail.com.
01:59:42
Speaker
Jinx!
01:59:44
Speaker
Now I owe you a Coke. You owe me a Coke now. um You can follow us on Instagram. You can see Homard. He is now posted on Instagram. Save Your Game Podcast.
01:59:55
Speaker
I'll soon post your ah picture of the owl. Oh, yeah, yeah. Cardi Mara. ah a Discord. We have a Discord. It's hopping.
02:00:05
Speaker
It's popping. yeah We should have a permanent link. You don't know how to do stuff in the show description. I i learned how to do it. I had to Google it.
02:00:18
Speaker
What even is technology? I know. ah And. Oh, you know and I'll say I'll say this ah a little bit ahead of time after. So next week is our last week of spooky month. And then we're going to take ah just a little break. It might be a week. It might be two weeks. I'm not sure yet.
02:00:35
Speaker
Or I'll be like, I miss it. let's do a record podcast yeah hey man if we do a record we are going to both also be at adventure x we are in london uh at the towards the end of november so first of if you're gonna be at adventure x hit us up come say hi but um but don't bother me sorry sorry
02:01:05
Speaker
you know So you know we will probably will try to pre-record an episode to put up during that time, but yeah you might end up with two breaks in November. Yeah, that's true.
02:01:16
Speaker
That true. But yeah, first week of November, we're going to take a little – we're going to take a break, and then um and then we'll see from there. Yeah. um But you know if if we disappear for a couple weeks, we're not we not gone forever.
02:01:29
Speaker
You'll hear from us in November. You will definitely hear from us in December. Yeah. And we'll be in the Discord. We'll update the Instagram. We're here. Thank you everybody, for listening.
02:01:40
Speaker
and
02:01:43
Speaker
Keep it spooky. oh dear. i don't know. I don't know. How do we end these podcasts? like I mean, my tagline on YouTube when I do spooky stuff is stay spooky. But that's not our tagline. That's not our tagline.
02:01:56
Speaker
and ah Our tagline goes a little bit like this. Podcasts is art. And art is suffer. So relevant, though.
02:02:09
Speaker
God. So relevant.