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EP 10: AI in Legal Ops: Hype vs Reality with Kunoor Chopra
7 Plays2 days ago
In this episode of Beacon Voices, Akshay Verma (COO at SpotDraft) sits down with Kunoor Chopra, Co-founder and Vice President at Elevate, to explore the evolution of legal operations and why it has become central to the modern legal function.
Kunoor shares her journey from traditional law firm practice to building one of the earliest legal process outsourcing (LPO) companies, and how that experience exposed the inefficiencies in legal services. She reflects on the early days of legal ops, before it had a name, and how a growing community helped turn it into a global movement.
The conversation also dives into AI, legal education, talent gaps, and the future of legal teams. Kunoor explains why AI is accelerating transformation, not replacing lawyers and why aligning people, process, technology, and data is key to turning legal from a cost center into a strategic business partner.
Topics
Introduction: 00:00
Kunoor Chopra’s background, upbringing, and decision to pursue law: 02:20
Law school experience, community, and personal growth: 04:06
Early legal career: law firm journey and exploring different paths: 04:56
Realizing inefficiencies in law firms and questioning the traditional model: 06:37
Entrepreneurial leap: starting an LPO in India and early challenges: 09:06
Building and scaling a legal outsourcing business (services, clients, operations): 13:48
Learning business fundamentals: SLAs, processes, and global delivery: 15:05
From selling the company to co-founding Elevate: 17:17
The emergence of legal operations and early community-building (pre-Corporate Legal Operations Consortium era): 19:34
Growth and impact of legal ops as a function: 21:25
Future of legal operations: people, process, technology, and data: 26:49
Talent gaps, legal education, and preparing the next generation: 30:34
AI in legal and key takeaways on the future of the profession: 35:20
Connect with us:
Kunoor Chopra - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kunoorc/
Akshay Verma - https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshay-verma-esq/
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
AI and Business Outcomes
00:00:00
Speaker
The organizations moving forward are the ones that are being intentional. They're not just adopting AI or new tools like we spoke about. They're stepping back and asking, what work are we doing? How should it be structured? And how do we align it to business outcomes?
Introduction and Guest Bio
00:00:21
Speaker
Hi, everyone. i am the host of the Beacon Voices podcast, Akshay Verma. I'm the COO at Spot Draft. And joining me today is the co-founder and vice president at Elevate and a legend in legal operations, Kunur Chopra.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hey, actually, it's so good to be talking to you today. And that is a very kind intro. Thank you. like I'm glad you took some time to talk to us today. i want to talk a a lot about your path. In some ways, I can say that I've mirrored that, although very unintentionally from my side.
00:00:53
Speaker
But I know what the transitions in my own career have done for me in terms of joy and satisfaction and energy and all those kinds of things. i want to talk a little about that for you as well. i Obviously, want to talk a about legal operations in general and clock. You were there in the very early days. And then we've got a little surprise that's going to be coming up at CGI in a couple of weeks takess around the documentary. And I'd love to get your thoughts around what really spoke to you about why you wanted to be in it, why you thought that story really should be told, and kind of what you expect, the takeaways for people who see it are going be like. does that sound? That sounds perfect. All right. Well, tell us a little bit, where are you joining us from? How's the weather? It looks beautiful. Is that your painting in the background there? It is I actually painted that. So yeah. No kidding.
00:01:44
Speaker
I did. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. That's how i you know get out kind of my, uh, anxiety, like stress and, you know, kind of go down to my studio and and do a little bit
Cultural Background and Education
00:01:54
Speaker
of art. But yeah, I'm coming live from Laguna Beach, California. So yes, weather is amazing outside. Cool.
00:02:00
Speaker
But this is also reminds me of, and we'll talk a little about this just because you went to law school. um all the different talents that many lawyers never really get to explore. yeahp And obviously hobbies are a big part of that. And things we do outside of our quote unquote day jobs are such a big part of that and who they make us who we are as human beings. But let's start a little bit from the beginning from you to tell us a little bit about kind of how you grew up and what it was about law school that really interested you in the first place that made you say, I'm not only going to apply, I'm going to go here and this is what I'm going to
00:02:34
Speaker
Well, that story may resonate with you. um'll I'll share that. So um I'm born and raised in LA. I went to UCLA undergrad. And when I was applying to law school, honestly, it came from the background of I'm the daughter of a South Asian family. And they said, lawyer, doctor, engineer, you can be whatever you want. yeah And ah so whatever you want with those three choices. exactly Engineering, I was like, I don't even know what they do. um Doctor, I'm so squeamish at even, you know, a paper cut. So I was like, well, I'll just go to law school. I can major in anything. So I majored in women's studies and minored in business at UCLA. And then I went to Loyola.
00:03:12
Speaker
um I wasn't sure that I would like it, but I absolutely loved law school. It was nice to be on a small campus at Loyola in downtown. So I had a really good experience there.
Law Career Paths and Personal Experiences
00:03:23
Speaker
That's very cool. Well, I did not have, just so you know, i did not get lawyer on my list.
00:03:27
Speaker
I barely, i barely got doctor on my list. My dad was a, was an engineer and for him, it was very um regimented and kind of single track. So I actually started off as a chemical engineer at Cal. I went to Berkeley and after my first engineering class, like, no, i was like, dad, is it's just not going happen. I'm sorry. It's not going happen. um And. You were a disappointment.
00:03:52
Speaker
I was for a little bit. furlo by He's yeah obviously very happy now. Yeah, exactly. I'll be 50 this year. If he's not happy by now, I mean, come on, way what are we even doing? Exactly. it's It was a journey for us. It very much resonates with with the way that we were raised. Yeah. All right. So um i like you, I actually also loved law school. Why? What was it about it that you really loved?
00:04:12
Speaker
For me, it was also it was also part of the community. I was at a smaller campus compared to being at UCLA. And, you know, we all kind of learned together, grew together, cried together. So I said think the community was a big aspect for me. And also just personally, like when I was at UCLA, I was really dealing with coming out as a lesbian. And so I dealt with a lot of just the challenges and are associated with that at that point. So by the time I got to law school, things were better, right? i was kind of coming into my own more. So it also, I felt better. And I think that also played a ah big role in that. And i was just, you know, i I enjoyed the law. I enjoyed learning. you know i you know, I did well in school. So I think all of that contributed to just having a really overall good experience.
Early Career and Realization for Change
00:04:55
Speaker
So you're in law school. Is law firm life kind of the only path that you're taking a look at? Was there anything else back then? You and i went to law school right around the same time. And I know for me, it was like, yeah, you go to a law firm. i mean, there really wasn't much else that you could take a look at. It was either a small law, medium law or big law. a Similar experience for you?
00:05:15
Speaker
Absolutely. and i I'd say I probably tested all of them out. I so tested out the small firms. I test i tested out public interest. i I tested out the government, but all kind of, you know, similar types of organizations. Right. I didn't I didn't try in-house. And i recall my ethics professor saying, hey, when you graduate, please make sure you do one thing. Don't take the first pi first paying job. And i was like, no, no, I won't do that. So what did I do? i took the first paying job at a small firm. Then I got an offer from a midsize firm. And within a week, like they had raised the salaries like from $75,000 to $100,000 a year for a first year. And I'm like, okay, I'll take it.
00:05:55
Speaker
um So it wasn't really well thought out. right and um And I did end up at a really good firm. it was a firm called Nossman in LA. And I had had a good experience
Entrepreneurial Journey and Industry Inefficiencies
00:06:04
Speaker
there. Yeah. and what what kind of work were doing?
00:06:06
Speaker
I was doing general litigation. So a little bit of everything like construction, a little bit of media and entertainment. um But the problem was like, even though I was having a great experience there, and I think culturally culturally it was a really good fit for me. My parents always, you know, focused on bigger is better. So then I applied to a bigger firm where I would make more money. And so I went for a year and that's where everything fell apart, fell apart or everything came together.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, let's let's take each one of those as a particular question. Like, what about it really came together? Let's start with let's start with the positive. What about it really came together for you? So I think I realized, you know, as a fifth year attorney, always say, well, back then it was, you know, it's the five year itch or the seven year itch. I don't know what it is today where you really evaluate, you know, what is it that I want to do with my career? And so as a fifth year attorney, um i realized, and I guess this is, i don't know, it's a good and the bad. I realized I was getting a lot of experience. So the good was i had a lot of experience. I was doing arbitrations, even at Nassimene, you know, I was getting a lot of experience going to court and doing hearings. And many attorneys or most associates actually don't get that experience. So I was getting really good opportunities at both firms. But when I was at the second firm at Fulbright, which is a great firm, it just wasn't the right
00:07:22
Speaker
for for me, especially with kind of what I was looking at, I just saw a lot of inefficiency in what I was doing. You know, I had customers who were really struggling to afford legal services and they were paying hundreds of dollars an hour for me to review paper documents and say what was relevant. And, you know, what we now know is kind of e-discovery. And I saw firms that were just paying a lot for expensive real estate and running their operations there. So i was like, there must be something different and better in terms of an operating model. And at that time, industries like IT and BPO um were already using global service delivery models. And so thinking about efficiency very differently. So I thought, you know, why not legal? Why isn't legal thinking differently? So um even though I had a lot of experience, I started to see these inefficiencies. And I think one of the biggest fears for me was also having to become a partner. because like you said, there were options back then, right? So if you're at a big firm, you become a partner. To to become become a partner, you have to have a big book of business. And yeah i was deathly afraid of sales and it' selling legal services, which is ironic given what I do today. Yeah.
00:08:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a different kind of selling. And I don't know, my my own experience, by way so much of that resonates with with my first few years in the law firm life. And i was somebody who went to Latham as a paralegal before law school. I knew exactly what I was getting into. i decided to do it anyway. And I probably stayed, I don't know, two years too long and in big law or medium law by then. Actually, I'd moved firms. But, but that, you know, that concept of like, yeah, I don't know if I really want to be partner was, was there for, for me. Was it just kind of the business development angle or was there anything else around it?
00:09:10
Speaker
The business development was a part of it. And the other was I wasn't enjoying what I was doing. So I wasn't enjoying the practice of law. So even at Elevate now, if you sent me an NDA to review, I, it's not going to happen. I don't enjoy the practice of law but I love what I do. And I know we'll talk about that. So yeah um I just, and so it was, it was those two things. And then just, i was like, well, let me, I liked the law. i enjoyed law school. I think there's an opportunity. So I decided to stay in law, um but I just didn't want to actually be practicing at a firm.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah. So how long did you kind of grapple with this at your last law firm? Like, was it a few months? Was it a couple of years? Like where did that go? Yeah, it it was really a few months. um I knew I didn't want to do that anymore. And i saw what the opportunities were in some of the other industries. And i was actually sitting at a court hearing and someone was telling me like, hey, I'm doing something in legal out of the Philippines. And I thought, okay, well, you know, maybe I should look at doing something out of India because my dad has a business where their offices were in India. And so when I spoke to him and he's like, well,
00:10:17
Speaker
we have offices there, you know, why don't you just go and start a company, you know, a legal company out of India? Like, why not? Why not go do that? And I'm very, I'm okay with taking risk. um And so I was like, Hey, let me just try it. I mean, what i was really going to miss out on at that point was just the big lost salary. And so that was a really hard conversation with my mom. My dad was very supportive being an, you know, a engineer turned business person. And so yeah. So 2004, I went to India, I put out an ad and I had like 200 people apply. I mean, it was people are like, what legal? And we get to support folks in the US. I mean, it was a big thing.
LPO Growth and Industry Impact
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah. one has done it Or or ah companies, I think I it was one of the pioneer companies. There was two other companies at the time who were doing something you know around the same time, but um no one had heard of it.
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I can't even imagine what that world was like. And I've used some of those services and some of my prior roles that have been both you know out of the Philippines, out of India, out of some other locations as well.
00:11:20
Speaker
We see that as very mainstay. And it's not like it was 50 years ago that this started. It was about 20 years ago that it really started to to get off the ground. But you know you obviously have this entrepreneurial spirit within you. um And this is a little bit of a spicy question. Do you think ah lawyers really lack that? Is there something inherent either about lawyers or the practice of law that prevents entrepreneurial spirits?
00:11:49
Speaker
I think for the most part, yes. And the reason is that you're supposed to be risk averse. You're supposed to like protect your client, right? And so you are looking at the risks and you want to make sure that you are representing your customers, your clients in the best way. So I think because of that, um they are you know more risk averse. And so most attorneys are like that. And so even within our organization at Elevate, there's some attorneys who are just great at kind of doing the work, right? And not necessarily being kind of the risk takers, the entrepreneurs.
00:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. and And what about law school? Like, you you you learned some of what you thought you needed to do from a business perspective when you were actually practicing law. But did anything at Loyal prepare you for that? Like, was there anything, right? like Not at all. We don't learn about data. We don't learn about process. we don't learn about technology. we didn learn Obviously, why would you learn about those things? Because the two are not connected, especially back when you and I went to law school. They were certainly not connected. They're far more connected now.
00:12:47
Speaker
And so with a little bit of that benefit of that hindsight, like here's another kind of look back, maybe to look forward question. What would you teach differently or how would you do law school differently, particularly given that you still teach at your alma mater?
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think the only regret that I had was not spending the extra year to get my joint JD MBA. You know, I had gone straight through school straight through undergrad to law school and I was, was like, I want to graduate with my friends. So looking back 100% because I had to learn so much just, you know, running, building and running my own company and it was really, really hard.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, I bet. I mean, I can't even imagine not just leaving the law firm life and like, you know, people can try and scoff at 100K now. Even now, it'd be a pretty decent salary. Back then, that's a lot of money to say no to. I mean, and just kind of walk away and to try something that was was relatively risky, but do it halfway around the world. I mean, that's not that's not something that you take very, very lightly at all. All right. So you you you decide I'm going to open up this business. What do you decide are the services that you're going to provide and how do you come to that decision?
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah. So when I started LawScribe, was actually going to be a legal transcription company because people were dictating and they needed that information transcribed. But when i went up when I went out there to set up operations and interview folks, I had just this great talent coming in. Attorneys were applying for these roles and I'm like, you guys are just way more you know talented to yeah be doing you know legal transcription. And so as I was talking to you know my friends and you know potential customers in the US, they're like, well, have you thought about like doing other types of legal services? And so really through having those conversations, it evolved into, well, what can we do well? right And so this was the first version of LPO, right legal process outsourcing. Labor arbitrage was going to be the efficiency play here.
00:14:41
Speaker
and what we started What we decided to sell was basically document review, contract drafting, and prior art searches. So LegalZoom was one of my big customers back then, which was like the coolest thing. and I hired engineers to do that. But imagine the types of inventions that consumers in the U.S. were coming up with. So, yeah, they had a fun time doing that out there.
00:15:04
Speaker
And how did you think about things like SLAs and you know communication and learning the jargon and bridging the communication gap? Because while you mean Indian lawyers, they treat they train in English, everybody, like you know I was born there, pretty much everybody goes to school, you learn, and especially in the big cities, you learn English and Hindi, the primary languages, including any additional home language that you may speak, but you learn them simultaneously. So i grew up speaking both languages.
00:15:31
Speaker
But how do you bridge all of those things to to get the the business to really click with with buyers in the United States? Oh, man, I learned so much just talking to folks. I still remember Paul Graywell. I went to his firm to pitch him document review services. And he said, so what are your like, I can't remember if said, what are your KPIs or what are your SLAs? And I was like, what is he talking about? I had no clue. So I joke about that whenever I see him now. But i I had to figure that out. And so talking to folks like that, I was like, what is he talking about? And so really then establishing that, right? What are what is success going to look like? What is our turnaround times? Communication was easy, right? we had conversations.
00:16:13
Speaker
We had computers. I didn't have video back then, but we had, I think, Vonage phones. And so, you know, voice over IP phones. And we were talking to our customers. um So and I the folks I hired, I mean, obviously, I was hiring hiring very intelligent people. Like you said, they speak English, but I had a very rigorous training program. So I was training them on all them. all of that information. I was the one who put that together, the notebooks of what they needed to learn. And then I spent a lot of time in India. I was in India, you know, probably, you know, three to four months out of the year, um spread across the year just to train them and teach them these different areas of of law. So from communication to the substance of what's involved in document review or contract support, et cetera. And of course I hired folks who would be our subject matter experts to yeah you know also help with that.
00:17:03
Speaker
And how long did that operate for? from 2004 and then in 2010, I sold to United Lex. And then I was there for about a year and a half and then co-founded Elevate 14 years ago.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah. Tell me how you met Pratik. Like how did that come about? What were the discussions like? And you guys are on your 16th year of the journey now, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So, ah well, Liam and Liam Brown and i you know, Liam had had built a company called Integrion and then I had built, you know,
Founding Elevate and Legal Ops Evolution
00:17:34
Speaker
my company. And so,
00:17:35
Speaker
um what was great about coming to United Lex was I was able to bring a really good customer base. So as much as I was afraid of sales, I started to build a really good network, but my company just wasn't big enough. And so I had to figure out, do I continue to grow and get outside investment or do I sell? And this is where, you know, kind of the the challenges around not having a business degree or a business partner to grow the the business had an impact. And so I had to make those decisions.
00:18:01
Speaker
But, and i When i United Lakes, I was focused only on sales, but I still like building businesses and there was just, you know, more I wanted to do. And so I reached out to Liam on LinkedIn and I said, hey, we're in the same city. um Would love to meet up with you and figure out what you're doing next. And so we had lunch in January of 2012 in Santa Monica. And he said he was going to do this all over again. at a ah He wanted to build a legal business all over again. And I was like, why would you do that? There's competitors like the company the company that I sold to. Like, are you sure?
00:18:34
Speaker
um But as we continued the conversation, he was like, think about it. Like, look at where data and technology are today. Don't you think there's so much more to be done? and I was like, yeah, there is. And, you know, come companies had been built in a way that, yeah, they had supported customers' needs up to that point, but things were changing and evolving, kind of like they are today. And it was at a point where you just had information in a very different way. And it ah it basically started to give birth to or you know, what what legal ops looks like now today. Yeah. So that's perfect segue into kind of the next portion of this conversation. Like when did that first become a thing for you? i think, I think you're right.
00:19:13
Speaker
I first learned about it. I i just left the law firm life in 2012. I went to Axiom. And so the concept, the terminology, the concept, the people,
00:19:24
Speaker
And then the actual practice of that function started to get onto my radar around that time. And it was still relatively new, but had been around for a little bit. What was it like for you to kind of understand that this function is coalescing together? And by the way, I've been doing this for the last 10 years almost. Yeah.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah. So I remember in 2008, well, first when I was running my company, I was just trying to figure out what conferences do I go to? Because that thing exists. I didn't, there was no word. I didn't understand. was like, where am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be at legal tech or, the International Association of Outsourcing Professionals, or, you know where do I, where does this company belong?
00:19:59
Speaker
And so I remember going to IAOP and I was going to speak on outsourcing on a panel with a law firm partner and Connie Brenton, so an early founder of Clock. And, and she was speaking, or they were speaking, you know, my language. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, this is a thing. And so That's when I'd say we I first started to meet folks in a community that they were going to evangelize from their perspective. And I was evangelizing from mine. And i was meeting folks who were in legal operations before it was a thing. So I was creating a network of folks.
00:20:33
Speaker
So by the time we started Elevate, um They were like, hey, you know, we want to do things like we need help with our, you know, with billing and e-billing and spend management and, you know, really looking at how can we right source, they weren't using the term, but how can we have better resourcing for the work that we're looking to accomplish? And so when we started Elevate, we were like, we are now at the cusp of what legal ops is going to be. And let's build a company that is really ai powered, focused on supporting that business of law Right. And obviously where we are today has evolved over time, but we had this vision of an enterprise solution really focused on what legal ops is is addressing.
00:21:15
Speaker
Right. The right people doing the right work with the right processes and tools. right People, process, tech, data. And that's all all been birthed from legal ops. Are you at all surprised at how quickly it went from what you're just discussing, like this nascent, like people doing it here and we're starting to talk about it to, I'd say within six years of that, a full-fledged function within some of the largest law departments on the planet, um a massive community with other kind of small ancillary communities popping up, an annual conference, kind of a marquee conference at CGI, but then a number of other events that are popping up. like Did that surprise you at all, how quickly it proliferated?
00:22:01
Speaker
It's interesting that you think it's quickly because when I think about it, I mean, I've seen how slow, like when I was running my company in 2004, I thought, oh my gosh, I'm at the right place. Like companies need us, law firms need us. There's such a huge opportunity and it took a long time to get to where we are. so I don't see it as quickly, but I'd say what has been quick is I think more of the adoption in the last two or three years with, um you know, with where kind of Gen AI has taken things, right? That's really forced companies and law firms to think differently because now you have a tool that completely um changes how you can potentially operate. There's a way to go there, you know, with AI. However, I think that's really accelerated where why companies are now focusing on legal ops in the way that they are. Yeah. What about legal operations really kind of speaks to you as a function? I mean, there's there's certainly a part of it that's your own experience in the law firm life, that feeling like there's got to be a better way to do this. Like we can do better. we can have better outcomes. It can be more fun. Like there's all of that. But but what about it kind of at ah at a very core level speaks to you?
00:23:11
Speaker
Absolutely. So it makes me feel like I'm being creative and I'm solutioning and I am solving challenges. So this art, I'm not a great artist. It's sort of, you know, I wish I was.
00:23:26
Speaker
ah When I think of just creativity, like the way that I'm able to bring that to Elevate and when I'm talking to customers, it's really exciting. So, you know, when I, and, and, you know, i built legal services at Elevate, but now I do sales. So I love having the conversations with folks saying, Hey,
00:23:42
Speaker
I'm trying to figure this out. And then I'm like, you know, my mind starts to spin and I'm like, oh, wait, what are the, you know, inputs here that can help them from a you know, people process tech perspective. And so that's what really excites me.
00:23:54
Speaker
I want to talk a little bit about AI and kind of the legal ops, or the future of legal ops in a minute. But you have now used the same word three different times. I ah um ah want to talk about a little bit. And that word is community.
00:24:08
Speaker
um You talked about it in your law school experience and how important that was. You talked about it as you are kind of getting your business off the ground and now meeting other people who are like minded. And you talked about it certainly in the in the context of of clock and and what that really meant as all of these people really started to come together and organize and so forth. I don't mean to make it sound like a revolution, although i think we have to admit that it very much is and or was and is is a revolution. but But what's the importance of that? Like what role does that play for you as a human being, but also ah professional and legal operations?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. That just made my heart like such a personal element to that. And so I think so on the personal track, I think it's been tough because because of my background, just feeling like I didn't belong, you know, at different times in my life. And so really coming into this community, you know, both personally and professionally, I just felt like, wow, I belonged. And this was a place where, you know, folks were coming together. People were thinking about how can we all do things better? People were willing to share, know, what are they working on? What are they not working on? What's, you know, kind of what's next? And so I think that's what was unique about CLOCK, right? I mean, I've been there since CLOCK had their first conference, you know, 10, 11 years ago, right? And there were 500 people in the room, but everyone was coming together for that purpose. And it just felt good to be able to have those conversations and feel like even as a provider,
00:25:36
Speaker
that you know my voice was important to them and they felt value we know when we had the conversations with we did that we did. yeah I think, and I've, you know, i've been being lawyers, we've been part of legal or lawyer communities as well. There's something unique about legal operations in the community. there's There's a level of support and what do you need attitude that I don't know that I necessarily have seen everywhere else. um and It's not a knock on lawyers. I'm just saying, I think there is a different feeling in the legal operations community. Maybe because we, we kind of share so much of the same pain, but also understand that there is a
Strategic Importance of Legal Ops
00:26:18
Speaker
collective solution to be had to, to address that pain that I think really makes it happen. And like, yeah there's almost no need to be competitive around it. Lawyers by nature, because they grew up in the law firm world and,
00:26:30
Speaker
You can say all you want about partners at the same firm. Like they literally compete against each other at the end of the year. So yeah it's a very different kind of mentality. I think it's one that I've really valued myself for, I think primarily for for that reason. Obviously the conference every year is is a fantastic event as well. All right, let's talk a little bit about where you see the profession going. You mentioned that things are evolving more quickly than they ever have. I 100% agree with that. We'll we'll talk a little bit separately about the technological aspects of that of that evolution, but but the function itself, and and you also used a phrase that I think should remain kind of the pillar of this profession for eternity, which is people and process plus technology and data afterwards. um but But talk a little bit about where you see it going.
00:27:20
Speaker
Sure. um i know we'll talk about AI, but I think that you know right now it is about you know you know AI standardization, um how can we be strategic, and and you know also the educational aspect of it.
00:27:36
Speaker
But you know when I think of um you know where it's headed, it is more of like, how do we, i think one of the opportunities or one of the challenges right now is that you have a lot of companies who are trying to do things. So even though there's a community, you kind of have your in-house, you have law firms, you have your ALSPs, you have the tech companies. And so I think there's an opportunity, you know, as we continue to grow and evolve for all of these to kind of converge together to really strategically design how a law department should be operating or how a law firm should be operating. And so right now, I think those pieces are still trying to come together. So that's where I think an interesting opportunity is because it does really come down right sourcing. Who's doing the work, right?
00:28:18
Speaker
Who in this community should be doing the work? What technology should they be using? Where does ai fit into that? And that's very, obviously that ties into the people element and the processes, because even though we're talking about AI and technology, if you don't have the standardization, you don't have the processes, you don't have the playbooks, you don't kind of have that core foundation in place. None of this other stuff is going to work. I mean, you work,
00:28:40
Speaker
you know, spot draft. I'm sure you see that like every day, right? It's like, today yeah, it absolutely happened today actually. yeah Yeah. Um, and data, I think data is going to be interesting right now. I think we had kind of, again, version one of that when we started Elevate and how it allowed us to do a lot in the legal ops space, but now you have so much more information and whether you're talking about contracting or litigation, um, or, uh, legal ops, uh, more, uh, when I say that a little bit more traditionally, um the insights that you're going to gain, that you're gonna use to improve your outcomes, I think is going to take companies to a whole different level. So it's not just about how do we bring efficiency into that? And that's obviously a big part of what we're all doing. But now that we have data in a way that we have never had it before, how is that going to influence outcomes? And so legal ops now is going to be even more strategic to the business if they have that information. And I'll say that power, But that information, right, and the ability to show the attorneys what they can do with that.
00:29:42
Speaker
One of the themes I think I've certainly picked up on maybe in the last year or two in legal ops is there seems to be a growing gap in talent between and and really kind of understanding and even a a level of subject lacking of subject matter expertise.
00:29:58
Speaker
between what we would consider the first and second generation of legal ops leaders and the the volume of legal ops or people that are getting into legal operations now, the at the titles, analysts, associate manager, whatever you want to call it, but folks who are much newer into legal operations. And I think we would all agree part of the beauty of this function is the diversity of kind of entry points. I don't think my at my team at Facebook I don't think had two people who came from similar backgrounds. I mean, somebody was from IP, somebody was from the nonprofit world, like just a lot of different perspectives and backgrounds that come into it. But do you, do you share that narrative at all with respect to the gap that's there? And if so, what do you think we should do about it?
00:30:43
Speaker
So I do share, as you were saying that I was reflecting and thinking, I think you're right. And it's probably because kind of the, the first generation of us legal ops leaders were building and evangelizing something that didn't exist, right? We were responsible for doing all of these things within our organizations and without the role, without the title, probably without the pay, but we were trying to make the machine work. And so when you grow up doing that, you you you have this entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so you just you you learn by doing in a way that kind of these next generation that are coming in,
00:31:17
Speaker
They haven't had to do that, right? They haven't had to walk 10 miles in the snow like we have to get to where we are. So I think that's true. And I also do believe that I'd say, you know, know if it was five or eight years ago, there weren't as many folks, you know, in legal ops. And so it is good to see that there's more of that talent. um What we need to do is kind of those those first generation leaders or CLOC or really these communities, need to help educate, right? And so we're seeing a lot more legal ops organizations out there. And I think that is going to help. And this is a a tangent a bigger conversation is just the education piece of it. And how do you educate them beyond kind of what these communities will do? And that's where law schools need to do something a little bit different. I'm teaching at Loyola on innovation and transformation and legal services. And my students' minds are blown when I tell them what's going on in the industry, you know? Yeah.
00:32:12
Speaker
um And I'm actually on the advisory council for TED Law. Like TED Law sees that there's a gap. And so they're coming in to reimagine a legal education. Yeah. so I love that all of that is going on. I think it's fantastic. I think some law schools are taking up um the responsibility to teach their students more hands-on applicable skill sets. I think legal operations and the things that we do should very much be a part of it. yeah i went to Santa Clara, so another Jesuit school, and um they started a TechEdge JD program, which is a subsection of every class, I think, Somewhere around 30 to 40 students are admitted into that. And they do, in addition to kind of your regular core law school class programming, they do hands-on ah classes. So they actually learn how to draft contracts and different provisions and write privacy policies. They get internships with in-house departments here in the Valley and get an opportunity to work directly with with in-house departments and and in-house lawyers. I think both the graduation rate, but also the employment rate for that program is 100% so far. I think it's two years in.
00:33:28
Speaker
and So I think those things are great. I think we should be adding legal operations into the mix. um I love the class that you're teaching there as well, because I don't think you can learn these things watching videos. You have to really get your hands dirty. I mean that's one thing that I will take away from my first kind of hard, you know, direct, hardcore job as a legal ops professional at Facebook. And i'd been at Axiom about seven years before that.
00:33:54
Speaker
I had seen hundreds of legal departments. And so I thought, yeah, I could i could do this. And it was, you know, getting hit over the head a little bit and be like, wow, no, this is a very different kind of feel. ah because I'm actually doing the work and not just thinking about it from a conceptual standpoint or from a consultative standpoint. very different exercise to do that. So I hope that continues. I think it's the path to up-level this next generation. and And I'm glad to see you know CLOCK and other organizations kind of taking taking that responsibility up as well. Yeah, I do think on that though, I do i strongly believe that law schools are hungry for this. And I've
00:34:30
Speaker
counseled or spoken to some of my friends who are like, Hey, we want to, you know, pitch a legal ops course to my loss alma mater. And I'm like, you should. And so I was like, Hey, here's my syllabus. And this is, you know, kind of what I, you know, taught and obviously, cause it has a lot of elements of legal ops.
00:34:43
Speaker
And so they were looking at, you know, proposing either a class or a whole curriculum. And I'm like, the law schools want this. so it' So I'd say if anyone is interested in teaching legal ops, Go talk to these law schools. I mean, there was love of curriculum on it.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, look, it helps everybody, right? It helps the law schools because the diversity of opportunities that's then available to their law grads is significantly higher. So their graduation and employment rates go up. It's great for the students because they have those opportunities. And it's great for the industry because you get flooded with new talent that wants to do different things and they're hungry as well. So it's one of those rare win-win-win situations in our profession that I think we should be taking advantage
Impact of AI on Legal Profession
00:35:20
Speaker
of.
00:35:20
Speaker
All right, well, you got to get to the two letter word that you literally can't avoid in today's conversations, which is AI. And and you rightfully said ai has been around for a lot longer than I think people understand because machine learning and those kinds of algorithms were back 20 years ago with TAR, any discovery and other things. But the generative component of it is very different. It's very powerful. um How do you see that reshaping the legal professions and how do you see it boosting or accelerating or changing legal operations?
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah. ah I think my biggest thing right now is that, you know, I don't think ai is creating the transformation, it's accelerating it. And so it's a big piece of what we all need to integrate into what we're doing. um And, you know, again, really just coming back to, you know, even at Elevate, like we're bullish on how we're advancing and ah applying our own AI technology. I mean, even we've had to kind of take a hard look at how are we operating and have the same conversation with ourselves that we're having with law firms like, Hey, know you need to think about your customer and how are you using technology? And it has to be a part of workflows. And so I think that everyone needs to look at how to integrate it. And I think you need to start small and really figure that out. And instead of trying to boil the ocean, because that's really overwhelming. So yes, it's going to be a part of it, but one of our customers said, Hey,
00:36:40
Speaker
you know they have their panel firms and their panel ALSPs. And they said, look, just pick one work stream that you're supporting for us and improve efficiency by 15%, whether you're using technology or people. Let's see what the success of that is, right? And then let's kind of, let's roll it out. And so cool um I think you have to experiment. I say, don't boil the ocean.
00:37:00
Speaker
And again, you have to really make sure that the foundation is there, right? you have to make sure you have the right data. You have to make sure that you have the right processes in place And then you figure out, okay, you know, how does the technology fit into this? and to say it a little bit better, um you know, instead of here, here's a technology, let's come solve your problems. You know, what are the problems to be solved? Right. And then figure those, again, people process technology inputs for that. Yeah.
00:37:30
Speaker
What um do you buy into any of the narrative that's around on AIs erasing this job and that job and lawyers and this and that? Any of that that resonates with you? Or do you see it the way I see it, which is that it's like any other piece of technology that we've had come into the world and into our profession, albeit maybe the most powerful one to date, who knows? And that we need to learn how to use it and we'll use it to our benefit. And then it'll be talked about the way email is talked about now.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Look, it changes the starting line. it gives us tools that we just didn't have. And I think we can do we can do things different and better. i don't have to shepherdize cases anymore because we have Lexis and Westlaw, right? So things shifted, you know, in terms of what where I had to spend my time as an attorney and I got to spend it on other things, right? I didn't have to look at paper documents anymore. E-discovery was a thing. And so it just changes, I think, what you're going to spend your time on. And so I do think some different roles will evolve, right? Different types of legal technologists or knowledge people who are, you know or prompted. So there's different roles that will evolve within the industry. And some people will need to pivot their skill sets, right? You aren't going to focus on, you know, doing research in the way you did or drafting documents in the way that you did. But gosh, you're going to spend time of time on really refining that argument or figuring out, you know, what are, you know,
00:38:52
Speaker
What can I look at, you know, if i'm looking at this prediction software and I've had this type of litigation, like how, you know, how likely are we to win or what are the settlement and what are the amounts of, you know, potential outcomes going to be. So there's a different way now that people will look at it. So it's just recalibration of what we're doing.
00:39:08
Speaker
I completely agree.
Reflecting on Legal Ops Documentary
00:39:10
Speaker
All right. Let's talk a little bit about the documentary. um Smooth Operators, The Business of Legal will be premiering at CLOCK on May 12th. It wonderful to have you be a part of that. Talk to us a little bit about what it was like to kind of think about being a part of it and why you thought it was so important for that story to be told.
00:39:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, I was definitely honored when Susan you know and and the team reached out to me. I was excited to be a part of it and really took me back to thinking about the fact that I have been there. right I've had a front row seat to how long this transformation has actually taken. um you know when i We spoke about this a little bit. you know When I started my company, I believe that the industry was on the verge of change um and we were talking about things like outsourcing and efficiency and new delivery models. um But the reality is the broader legal ecosystem wasn't ready yet. And so what feels different now and with actually doing this documentary is that we're crossing or have crossed that threshold. hasle And so you know we're seeing you know this momentum. And so the documentary felt important because it captures that inflection point. Right. It shows not just where we are today, But the journey that it took to to get there, right? The blood, the sweat, the tears, the people who've been pushing for the change and the challenges along the way and how that thinking has evolved and not from just a a professional level, but personally kind of what we all went through to get there.
00:40:37
Speaker
What are you most excited to see about the documentary? I'm nervous and excited to see like some of the parts that um ah where they recorded some of the things that I spoke about, because um I know we got a little personal. And so I'm so curious about kind of how that how that turned out and personal in a good way. It was it was such a great we had some great moments.
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah, i like there's a level of vulnerability across several people ah in in the documentary, which I think, look, we're human beings who yeah made this happen. Like yeah human beings made this happen. This didn't come out of thin air or from space or from machines. Like human beings made it happen. And so the human part of the the story had to be told as well. I think i think it really enriched it. All right. Last question. I think we'll wrap. I'm not sure what the viewership for the documentary is going to be like, ah but I hope that both lawyers and legal professionals alike get a chance to see it.
00:41:36
Speaker
What do you hope are maybe two or three of the top takeaways for them after they watch the film? Yeah. I think one of the biggest takeaways for the documentary um is that this shift in legal is no longer Holtzmane, foundational right, I mean this is not a future conversation is happening now so really thinking about that, and so. Ph.D.: If you look at the role of the general counsel and I hope any of them are watching this. Sarah Holtzmane, Ph.D.: You know it's not just about managing risk anymore it's about helping drive the business and legal ops is what makes that possible, so I think what the documentary will show is that the organizations moving forward are the ones that are being intentional.
00:42:15
Speaker
They're not just adopting AI or new tools like we spoke about. They're stepping back and asking, what work are we doing? How should it be structured? And how do we align it to business outcomes?
Embracing Technology for Legal Success
00:42:24
Speaker
um Because that's ultimately where the value is. Legal has been a cost center. We know that, and but there's an opportunity obviously to reposition it as a more strategic driver. And so, um you know, I think really, you know, I guess the final takeaway would be, you know, this isn't really about technology. It's about being willing to read ah this isn't just about technology. It's about being willing to redesign how legal work gets done. And so I think the leaders who embrace that, who bring together the people, process, technology, data, are the ones who are going to define the future of the profession.
00:42:58
Speaker
I think that is going to be a table stakes ask for most top lawyers across the profession from here on out. I think that's a really important piece that they have to take away from this as well. And legal operations can can make it happen for them.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah. All right, Kunur, thanks so much for joining me. That was a great conversation. Thanks so much, Akshay. I'm excited.