Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
T Edward Bak
1.6k Plays1 year ago
T Edward Bak is a cartoonist and illustrator exploring the crossroads of culture and the natural environment.
We talked about art, service industry work, Alaska, graphic novels, Buddhism, Shunryu Suzuki, energy, ecology Saint Nagarjuna, Thomas Merton, Jack Kerouac and more . . .
Follow on Instagram @t.edward.bak
Check out T Edward Bak's Website
Purchase his comics through Floating World Comics
Paypal quick links:
(please contact for International)
SEA OF TIME #1
https://www.paypal.com/instantcommerce/checkout/6VMA7CGLMQDLQ
NOT A PLACE TO VISIT
https://www.paypal.com/instantcommerce/checkout/AB95GGGS7EZC2
BAK BOOK BATCH
https://www.paypal.com/instantcommerce/checkout/BMLJK9TCGUJTS
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Ken Zalante. Editor and producer, Peter Bauer. Absolutely. Yeah, and I love that service industry work that you've done. Can you tell us a little bit about, like, that was a little while back for you, but tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:32
Speaker
Yeah, um, service industry came about because I made a decision that I wanted to be, get serious about making comics. And, um, you know, I had mostly been working in, you know, food service jobs and I, you know, was working at a job in this little town in Athens, Georgia in, uh, for about 10 years, you know, I lived down there.
00:01:00
Speaker
And, you know, that's a big music scene. It's a great, you know, great community there, actually. Very much a little oasis in the Deep South. And I, so, you know, it was a lot of cool stuff happening there. And I wanted to make comics. I actually went down there. I, you know, was interested in comics, but then I decided to get serious about it. And I went to the newspaper, Flagpole Magazine, and, you know, went to Pete McComins, the editor, and said,
00:01:30
Speaker
Hey, I'm interested in doing a comic strip. He said, bring me four weeks worth of work. And so I did. I cranked out like four strips, big strips, and brought them to him. And they were like, OK, get it in here every Wednesday. We'll pay you weekly. And I just started doing it. And I was like, well, what I wanted to do was figure out
00:01:51
Speaker
my storytelling, like how, how storytelling worked for me. But I also wanted to like, be honest about my life and what I was doing, you know, what it's like for me working in, in, you know, as a dishwasher, you know, prep cook and doing all this stuff in this in this restaurant situation with people I knew and people like, you know, friends and everything. Yeah, we're also artists for in large part, you know, musicians mostly, and
00:02:21
Speaker
It was a fun scene and a lot of late night partying too, but also just connected to that community, this little punk scene there.
Art's Role in Environmental Crises
00:02:35
Speaker
I had friends who were getting tattooed with my art and I was doing artwork for posters, flyers, bands and stuff. It was a lot of fun. I did that script for about three years and did some artwork for the paper and stuff.
00:02:50
Speaker
But it was kind of a trial by fire. I had to figure out how to make comics. And I had been reading mostly comic strips and graphic novels and things like this. At the time, I had no real knowledge or experience with mainstream comic books. That came later on. I had to learn late. Usually, you get that stuff when you're a kid. But I learned about that stuff later on. Yeah.
00:03:20
Speaker
I find that just so great, the kind of tone in the voice service industry, there's something about as I...
00:03:31
Speaker
Mentioned a little bit. Um, you know working with working people and just hearing what people really have to say about like the shit that they deal with is It's just so refreshing and I I can read that stuff all day. So I'm gonna go back into the archives I know they've been collected There so we're talking with T. Edward Bach and I'm so excited. It is his birthday It is Super Bowl Sunday
00:03:55
Speaker
And, uh, I, I got, I got them on the, on the something rather than nothing podcast. And, uh, we've been really excited to chat with each other about comics and, and art. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he invited me on and I'm looking forward to talking and yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
Wanted to go a little I don't know saw the sequence but it's just like radio really on the top of my head given some of the ways you communicated about what you do with regards to environment the environmental Crisis and art and I want to just want to tell you is a quick background. I ended up I've done a hundred over 175 episodes and Talk about the environment a lot or the environment and other crisis that we that we
00:04:47
Speaker
that we experience. I've been wondering if the role of art and what art needs to do, if it needs to do anything, has changed with the situation here and just seeing your conversations about the environment and your direct talk about impacts on our life and world. Are things different now when it comes to art?
00:05:17
Speaker
Hmm. I don't think so, but I do think that there's more, I think what I've noticed is that there might be a little more awareness and effort among artists to address some of this stuff. I think, you know, a lot of times
00:05:46
Speaker
I mean, comics, I'll just talk about comics, really. Because I'm not really, I'm not in the fine arts world. I don't, you know, the illustration. And I know that, like, those that artists in, you know, the art world, you know, are really addressing some of this stuff. And, you know, many of them have been for decades. And, you know, a lot of people have been involved. In comics, I think it's a little, it's an, it's an interesting
00:06:14
Speaker
medium because it's so, uh, associated with, um, modern cosmopolitan, urban sorts of, you know, relationships and, um, dynamics, right? It's very urban, you know, came up, you know, up in, in, uh, in newspapers and, you know, diet pulp, digest, things like this. Yeah.
00:06:42
Speaker
So there was no real connection to things that were environmentally related, really, in many terms, for the most part. There's things like Mark Trail in the comics, daily newspaper strips, right? And over time, you've seen things emerge. But I think now, lately, there are people who are paying more attention to it
00:07:11
Speaker
there are artists who are more interested in it and artists who are interested in addressing it. So I feel like I'm sort of answering the question there.
Comics and Environmental Awareness
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's one of the things that I've asked the question and we'll explore this a little bit with the other answers, but that backdrop for me is I think how we think about
00:07:36
Speaker
responding, how artists may respond or not respond to, whether it's environmental or political crisis or things that we feel right now, it impacts, I don't know, maybe approach, meaning, distribution and all those things. So I've become really interested in it because my belief on it is that
00:07:56
Speaker
Human beings are always trying to define meaning by crisis, and that doesn't diminish the actual crisis that exists, but we respond to crises. And I think these are as existential as could be. And I think the role of our, you know, like it's just squishing in or something like where responses are necessary. So I've been really thinking a lot about this one. I think there's a great example in, you know,
00:08:26
Speaker
Rachel Carson, right, you know, and like her impact and how that like affected, you know, policy even, you know, eventually with Silent Spring, right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's a vital role that art plays in this. And I think, you know, as far as like raising public awareness and creating awareness among
00:08:54
Speaker
people in power that can affect legislation and affect not just policy, but action in everyone. It's a tricky situation. There's so many habitat crises. There's so many things to be concerned about.
00:09:21
Speaker
ecology that's recovering on its own. There's also habitat restoration. There's also the question of like, yeah, well, you know, is stewardship, you know, ecologically ethical, like what how and how much like, it's a it's an interesting issue. And, you know, to me, the real vital thing is paying attention to what's happening. But I also really try to avoid alarmist
"Sea of Time" and Indigenous Themes
00:09:51
Speaker
perspectives in my work. I'm really interested in like the ecology itself and, you know, what's happening. I'm not oblivious to, you know, things that things that may seem to me not working. Yeah, right. In a major dynamics process for everyone, but for everything. But my perspective is focus on what's
00:10:19
Speaker
what these relationships are, what's happening in the ecosystem, what's the ecology, what's really happening over the long term.
00:10:27
Speaker
Thank you for spending some time with that. I had talked a few episodes back with Jonathan Case and did a little monarchs and just a beautiful learning experience for me. And also, you know, around a graphic novel, you know, immersing itself in these questions. Yeah, thanks so much. It's super complicated, I think. I think it's I think it's it's it's I don't want to say it's dangerous.
00:10:57
Speaker
But I think it's, um, it's kind of tricky to, you know, um, it's tricky to minimize what's happening, but it's also tricky to, uh, oversimplify it, you know? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
00:11:16
Speaker
uh... okay uh... you got a a newer publication sea of time i got a copy of it uh... i've been uh... dropping deep into uh... independent publications things i come in contact with the beautiful bookstore floating world comics and uh...
00:11:34
Speaker
Encounted your work on Instagram and there in person I want to say that the one main thing that I just want to let you know as somebody looking at your art the beautiful cover of feminine form and antlers on that cover just in a jaw-dropping image and Beautiful piece of work so I wondered if you could
00:12:03
Speaker
Yeah, just chat a little bit about that and it's accessible from you. Just tell folks about that recent piece. Are you asking about the work on the cover or just the book itself? The book itself overall, yeah. Sure. So yeah, let's see. Hmm.
00:12:29
Speaker
This is one of those shows. This is one of those shows where some of the questions are, yeah. It's good. It's a good, I can talk about this a little bit. I don't mind talking about it. And, you know, this is like one of those opportunities where it's like, okay, I have the opportunity, I have the chance. So I'll talk as much as I can about it and really dive in because, you know, I've been working on this project so long that, you know, if I, you know, encounter someone who
00:12:56
Speaker
is new to my work or I meet someone for the first time, I have to remember to give them the elevator version of the work instead of being like, well, let me start. Let me tell you how this is. It's like, I've been working on this project for over a decade. So the work sea of time is really kind of a sequel, prequel accompaniment to an earlier
00:13:26
Speaker
a graphic novel called Island of Memory, which focused really on a moment in time in the life of a naturalist, Georg Steller, who came with the Russians across the North Pacific to Alaska in the 18th century. So Sea of Time is sort of a follow-up, but also kind of like prequel, sequel, shows different perspectives
00:13:54
Speaker
introduces different elements to the overall narrative. Now, I'm working on more Sea of Time chapters, but also the island of memory sort of bookends the entire project. So there's another island of memory that will be at the end, and they'll just sort of be, like I said, a bookend. It's interesting you brought up service industry, and then we talked about that first.
00:14:20
Speaker
Service industry was autobiographical work, or I should say semiotic biographical, really, because there's all these fantastic elements in there. But also, it was my first real experience telling my own story and figuring out storytelling, comics storytelling for myself. So what I ended up doing, I'll cut to the chase a little bit here,
00:14:49
Speaker
I ended up working on a boat in Southeast Alaska. When I came back from Georgia, I came back to Portland. I ended up working on a tour ship in Southeast Alaska for a few months and had a contract position on that ship. And we went and spent time in Alaska and the North Pacific. And it was my first real encounter. I grew up
00:15:16
Speaker
traveling through the West quite a bit, but I had never been in such a remote wilderness and it absolutely just transformed my life. It completely refocused everything in my life. When I got out there, my goal was I wanted to save some money. I wanted to work, save some money, see some wilderness nature, get in that
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. Because I had, I had worked a little on a boat before previously and I had, you know, wanted to get back to it. I had a friend who had been doing it for a while too. So I went up there expecting to do some, uh, like a work that was sort of service industry ish. It was going to be like, Hey, I'm now I'm doing this service industry thing on this boat. Cause I got a job. Yeah. So I got up there and honestly, like I,
00:16:08
Speaker
you know, was just, I mean, I can't, I can't even like begin to tell you what it's like there, you know, it's like, I mean, we were surrounded by wildlife constantly. I mean, it was, I'm not kidding. Every day, it's just whales, orcas, doll's porpoises, there's bears on the shore, there's wolves out there, moose every, it's constant, like constant. And it was just unreal and mind blowing, you know, to be, you know, my first day I come up, you know, on deck and it's like, there's,
00:16:38
Speaker
humpback whales like right beside right next to us. You know, so it's Wow, it sounds fantastical in the scope of it as you describe and it sounds fantastical and magic. Yeah, it was unreal. And what happened was, you know, the more time I spent, I think within the first few weeks, I, you know, I was drawing a lot on my spare time. And it started, it occurred to me that, you know, the stuff that I was experiencing was
00:17:09
Speaker
so much more meaningful than me, than my life experience, than what was happening with me. And I was like, I'm nothing. That's one of the great things that I like living on the Pacific Coast is that sense of being near an ocean, you get that sense of insignificance. And I think people need that. I really need it.
00:17:36
Speaker
Cause I have, my ego can get, you know, pretty, I need, I need the same type of thing that, that, that, that, that much bigger thing. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, everyone needs it. And, and when I was out there, I definitely got it. And I was like, you know what? My, my story is not important. What's, what's more important is like, what's happening here? Um, among, you know, I was like, you know, we spent time in this Tlingit community. There was Haida and Tlingit art everywhere. Athabascan, you know, uh,
00:18:07
Speaker
and got to see all this and some of this culture on the coast and how that's connected to coastal ecology and not to mention just the coastal and forest succession that's happening because they're so close to glaciation out there. And it was just constant, phenomenal. And I was like, you know what?
00:18:34
Speaker
I'm totally insignificant. Me doing this service industry story out here is just ridiculous. I don't want to do that. I want to talk about what's happening in nature. I want to talk about what's happening in this other stuff. But I knew I needed that human element there. And I'd heard about this story about the second Kumpchatka expedition. What I heard about first was the St. Paul
00:19:01
Speaker
There were two ships that left from Kamchatka in this expedition. I heard about the Saint Paul, which was commanded by a Russian sea captain named Kirikov. And they got to what is essentially Sitka now and lost men there. So I heard about that story first. And then reading more, you know, there was actually, you know, work, books on the boat that I worked on
00:19:31
Speaker
that were addressed and talked about Steller. I started reading about George Steller, the naturalist, despotanist. And from there, I was like, here's the story that I want to tell. And here's what I want to learn about. So I did. I started working on this project that was about Steller's experience and his connection to the indigenous populations that he encountered and spent time with in Kamchatka and that the expedition encountered in the North Pacific, the Aleutian Islands,
00:20:01
Speaker
So what I did was I ended up going back to school. I went back to school for environmental studies. And I was working on this project, learning more about habitat ecology and things like this and environmental systems in the Pacific Northwest, really. But I was interested in Alaska. So I ended up kind of raising money to do a little drawing expedition and went back to the
00:20:29
Speaker
went back to Alaska and then went out to the Aleutian Islands to do some research out there and spent a few weeks out there and then came back on the ferry and met an Unangan family on the way back and connected with them and then reconnected with them later and decided, you know, this is the perspective that needs to be addressed and balanced out with this Russian history, this imperial history, is the history of these people who were impacted by this Russian exploration and this expedition
00:20:58
Speaker
And the impact on the ecology, obviously. Yeah. So in a nutshell, that's scene of time addresses that begins to address that stuff. And then as the chapters progress more and more, and some of this work will actually be translated into Unangam Tunu. I'll work with the Aleut Pribilov Island Association to get help translating. And also they're going to be reviewing my work as well and kind of guiding me in this stuff.
00:21:27
Speaker
Where it's where I'm talking about traditional ecological knowledge and you know indigenous Knowledge in the in the Aleutian Islands. Oh, thank you I mean my heart was just but I mean I was kind of lost my breath a little bit there because I'm that impacted by What you're talking about and even going back to the to the beginning for me I was trying to I was trying to put myself in you, you know in your head right you you talking about your experience in Athens and I
00:21:57
Speaker
Figuring out the form and storytelling and then you're up there in Alaska. Can you tell me when you saw Tlingit art when you saw that art like what happened then because The way you described it was connected to all those pieces in it I don't know that it was new for you But there had to be an aspect where had to be completely new for you in your in person Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it, but I guess I
00:22:25
Speaker
What made it, as far as the Tlingit culture goes, I think we were in this place called Alert Bay, and we were allowed to get off the boat, and there were totem pole carvings. There was a pole carving in process on one of the roads we were driving down
00:22:55
Speaker
to observe a dance ceremony that was at the lodge, one of the lodges we went to. And we observed this dance and we're surrounded by panels of these forms and learning about the different type of family clans, like the Moyetes is what they call them. And it's so interesting the way those clans are established and they're associated with wolf, with raven,
00:23:26
Speaker
and whale, and learning about this stuff gave me this kind of concept of this relationship with nature is so vital here, right? And I mean, you hear about that all the time, but to see it, to witness it, it made a solid impact on me. It was very inspiring to see that.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and thanks, thanks, thanks for, thanks for sharing that because, and I was also the part that had lifted my heart in here and you talk about of course, was the language and you working with the, you know, the language and translation because, um, for I've, uh, in, in, in doing this podcast, I've spoken with, um, indigenous creators, probably, uh, 18, uh, or so represent more than 20.
00:24:26
Speaker
20 nations.
00:24:28
Speaker
And I'm curious and I want to learn in the depth of the language or in the understanding language with the Leschutzid and Umatilla tribes. I saw a Black Belt Eagle Scout on Friday. She had just released her new album. And there's a song that it was, I thought it was just fascinating to me because I could see that it was written in Leschutzid. I didn't understand it, but I'm like, oh, I just felt good that like I was going, I was,
00:24:58
Speaker
I don't know, I just had learned something deep. And just hearing about your work and putting it in the language, can you tell us a little bit about that and doing it right and what that can mean to see your work in the language? It's interesting because we haven't started working on any of the translation yet. Sure. So we'll find out.
00:25:26
Speaker
Yeah, I will. I'll have to find out. And the thing is, I'll have to, you know, the the Tlingit stuff is probably not going to be part of this book, but Unangan culture will be in there. Unangan people are, you know, primarily the, you know, population that we associate that when people say when Americans or, you know, Canadians or, you know, people say that they're talking about the Aleutians and they talk about Aleut people.
00:25:56
Speaker
Aleut is really a word that comes from a Russian description. And those people don't call themselves Aleut. They call themselves Unangan. And then that's actually more of a broad term because there's different communities on different islands that have different associations. But Unangan-tunu is a language that is spoken by quite a few people
00:26:24
Speaker
in the Aleutians, which is sparsely populated, you know, but still has a, you know, a range of different cultural dynamics using this, you know, using, you know, using a similar language. So I'll, I'll work with the, uh, with the, uh, Aleut Pribilof Island Association to get some guidance on accuracy, cultural accuracy and representation. But I'm also.
00:26:53
Speaker
I've also been interviewing an Unangan woman who I've become friends with, and she's the head of the Alute Marine Mammal Commission. So she's also provided me with a lot of insight and really great conversations about what life is like now. So that's a perspective that will be in Sea of Time. What it's like now versus deep time, mythic time,
00:27:24
Speaker
like stories that come from like whoever, they're still relevant. And then like what happened during the expedition and now like what's life like today?
Connection with Nature and Indigenous Cultures
00:27:35
Speaker
Just to emphasize that continuum and that, you know, to make sure that these communities are, you know, still thriving. They still, you know, are still there. They still have this relationship with the,
00:27:54
Speaker
nature in the North Pacific. They still have a relationship with the Russian exploration that took place in the North Pacific. Yeah. Well, and thank you for that. I got to tell you, we're talking with T. Edward Bach. And thank you for spending the time and talking about some of the process pieces in your experience, too. It really adds a lot for me.
00:28:24
Speaker
I want to say one other thing. Of course. I was extremely fortunate. I was invited to participate in a comics convention in St. Petersburg, Russia. And I went out there, went to St. Petersburg, and managed to visit the Ethnographic Museum and was able to see some of the stuff
00:28:54
Speaker
that some of the objects that came back from the expedition but also saw some of the Imperial Academy
00:29:03
Speaker
you know, offices that had been preserved. So it's like, I get to use all this historical material to represent all kinds of different aspects of this expedition and this part of history and show how this is still ecologically relevant, right? Because that's the idea. It's all, well, ecologically relevant. Ecologically, you know, it's still vital and important. And I think, to me,
00:29:32
Speaker
one of the things I want with this project is, you know, to sort of heal that rift between nature and human beings, which I think is, uh, that's, that's like the, really the most important thing right now, you know, um, for everyone. So to me, this work is like sort of a, uh, picture medicine, picture story medicine, you know? Yeah. I, uh, I, um,
00:29:58
Speaker
I Will I think there's certain aspects of this way and end up talking again because I was gonna start talking about I've never been to st. Petersburg, but I'm I'm a deep into Russian literature Yeah, and I've studied I've I've I studied it Formally, you know some classes and done on my own too. So I've been interested lately in kind of the
00:30:24
Speaker
the mythos around things that I've created in my head that come from literature and history about what a place is. So when you said St. Petersburg, in connecting that piece of the story where you're looking at the pieces moving from being taken or placed there in St. Petersburg, it has to be just quite an amazing experience in the sense of just seeing
00:30:51
Speaker
the total of it. Yeah. And Siberia being so huge. I mean, they traveled from Siberia, Saint Petersburg, all the way across, you know, to Kamchatka. It took them like two years to get from Saint, you know, in the 18th century. Right. And it was like this. I mean, I read somewhere. I can't remember who wrote about this. I think it was. Oh, man. Anyway, I think it was Empire of Extinction was the book. But I think he was saying something like,
00:31:22
Speaker
the, you know, financially, this, uh, the, uh, like what Russia had accomplished and what they, what they tried to accomplish and what they did was, you know, the equivalent of, you know, like now, like mapping the entire, you know, um, like North American continent, you know, every river, every, you know,
00:31:49
Speaker
forest, every mountain range, you know, like now it would be just like the equivalent of that. For what they did, you know, and all the money they spent, you know, just to get across Siberia and the North Pacific and exploring, just like, just a little section of, at first in 1741, just a tiny little section. It was insane, you know, I mean, it was an insane amount of money. And of course, like,
00:32:19
Speaker
Once they had made it back to Russia, I think they were just like, no more. We're not spending any more money on this expedition. Because the leader of the expedition, Bering Sea, Bering Strait, is named after the leader of this expedition. He had gone twice, looking for a connection to America and Asia.
00:32:41
Speaker
So he had gone across all the way, then went all the way back to report to them and said, I think maybe it's there. And then they were like, well, I gotta go back and check. So they're like, okay, we'll give you more time, more resources, go again. He went again, and then they found it, they realized there was no land link. Then they came back and shipwrecked, and he died. And then they rebuilt their ship and made it back to Kamchatka.
00:33:09
Speaker
That's when the expedition, you know, pretty much ended. So the whole crazy sweeping histories. So there's so many little side expeditions as well. Like they went up to the Arctic, they explored out there that Japan, everything, they just did this whole insane thing. This was, this bearings expedition was only a small, well, it was only one part of it, but it's mostly.
00:33:34
Speaker
known because it was America. They got to America. So that's why it's more historically recognized, I think. At least in North America, I should say. Sure. Sure. Oh, man. Thank you.
Art as Alchemy and Artist's Role
00:33:52
Speaker
Big question. What is art? What is art? Right. It's always such a great question.
00:34:04
Speaker
I think there's an idea that there's this position that art's really just the mastery of a type of alchemy. It's partially this process of curiosity and opening oneself to ethereal forms that are triggered by inspiration. But then through a motive,
00:34:33
Speaker
and a knowledge and a practice and application of skills. You have these forms that are transliterated or deconstructed as corporeal expressions for others to witness, right? But then there's the idea that this is, art is like an acknowledgement of the brain's tendency towards symmetry, idealizing form and color and space.
00:35:04
Speaker
And I think all this stuff can be true. All this stuff can be true. But I think in so far as my concern, like over time, like realizing, I'm a cartoonist. I don't know if I'm an artist. I'm working at a practice to master the medium of comics. And in that sense, I'm a cartoonist.
00:35:30
Speaker
Am I an artist at comics? I don't even really think so. I think I'm creating some work. I'm not saying like, oh, art's just all self-expression. I think maybe when I was younger, I had this kind of notion. And I think you go through a phase where you have to see this, and then you have to realize there's formal elements you have to master. Or you can think this. Ultimately, I feel like for myself, there's a
00:36:00
Speaker
it's about relationships in the mastery of the creative work. So you have the relationship, the artist to the canvas, to the subject, you have the subject to the process, to the space, the materials, the method, the relationship of the viewer to the work, the relationship of the elements of the work within themselves. And I really think it's just about that.
00:36:29
Speaker
you know, that may be oversimplifying it, but to me, that's what makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I like the question and I think one of the, in talking about this, I like to, you know, recognize some of the dynamics that go into it, you know, what do we think about it now? How do we do it? And, you know, what it is kind of like,
00:36:55
Speaker
philosophical stuff. What is the thing? Why are we doing the thing? Which gets us to the big question, which is how ever you want to go at this. What do you think it is? How do you feel about it? As far as why is there something rather than nothing? No, no, no, the art.
00:37:23
Speaker
I am very much influenced in a simple way about what art is. I'm very influenced by Andy Warhol, what you can get away with, what you can show, the displaying of itself, somebody saying, hey, look at this. There's something about the way that I think about it is
00:37:48
Speaker
The people I have in an art experience, and I think they're having it a lot, like as far as, and there's a presentation and a knowing that humans need to be helped along with. And so I'm in like cultivating that, show it. Okay, we got a wall here and it has all these weird things on it. Let's put some sticker tape around it and say, look, is that a piece of art? You know, there's just something about that.
00:38:19
Speaker
I like the presentation and the display in the show. I take notice. And that's the dynamic. I really dig. But the constituent elements are in that too. Is that a work of art? And why is it? So I like the display. And the display kind of tells me, I give a lot of license to somebody saying, they're performing, they're doing. I'll watch. Let's watch this art.
00:38:48
Speaker
So I defer a lot, I think. I like your question about the role of art. And I think if anything, like maybe my role or my job is not necessarily an artist, but I'm an art worker.
00:39:17
Speaker
the role for the art is, and for the artist, is sort of inducing forms which demonstrate a potential to sort of unconfound human experience for those who encounter it, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, the, yeah, I wanted- That gets to what you say about display, is all I'm saying.
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and um, I don't I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that dynamic. I found that in the show. Let me let me tell you a little bit too just about the art. Um, I don't know it's like in the fall and you know, I work hard at doing this show and it's a lot of fun for me, but then yeah, I would say is you as an artist when you're stuck in certain
Creative Blocks and Artistic Inspiration
00:40:05
Speaker
places or things aren't working and then it's a few days or it's a few weeks. Had trouble booking folks and my head was busy and everything and then I was like
00:40:17
Speaker
wanted to tap into the kind of the kinetic energy that was around artists that were around in a breakthrough I had was I Interviewed Death Valley girls outside of Kelly outside of Kelly's in Portland great small music venue bar hangout Yeah, it was great and I talked to him and then the recording from inside was just an atypical episode was like I'm very moved by
00:40:45
Speaker
They're very moved by drums and journeying drums. I'm very susceptible to them. I will go with those drums. And I caught some of that live there. So then I put out this episode, and it was just so different. And we didn't drop into everything. It was like, hey, you're going into a show. You're about to play. Let's chat. And we had some of the music and that energy there and my focus and trying to get at that.
00:41:09
Speaker
It got me over that hump. I'm going to be like, I need to be doing this. I need to be having some fun. And if I need to go look where the wire is, I'll go search for the wire. And I got to do it. So that really helped me. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Music, right? And it was music, which can kind of
00:41:30
Speaker
just get you, jump you over to some of the difficult things, right? You can recharge, that's for sure. So, yeah, it's great. We're talking with T. Edward Bock, and I, for listeners, I encountered his works at Floating World Comics in Portland, which is a great publisher and shop. And continuing the conversation with him, I was really exploring
00:42:01
Speaker
art Ecology and history leading us to the question Why is there something rather than nothing?
Philosophical Musings on Existence
00:42:11
Speaker
Do you know? That's a that's an interesting question too, I I don't know I I wrote about this and I tried to kind of you know parse it out for myself and
00:42:29
Speaker
So I guess there has to be both, sort of, which is really kind of determined by the process of elimination. You have to like account for one in order to like discount the other. If not this, then this or maybe this or this or this until you determine that.
00:42:47
Speaker
In one circumstance, there's an absence of everything which is nothing. In another circumstance, there's the absence of nothing which indicates something, right? But I suppose maybe because of human consciousness and language of human consciousness, it may not be fully capable for us to really grasp nothing. We may not be able to actually like
00:43:15
Speaker
understand what nothing is. You're always going to encounter the concept of nothing being essentially something, right? Nothing is obviously something too. So maybe until the mind evolves the process to encounter or an undefined, which is without even its own absence, there will probably always be something. All right. That's the best I can get. That's the best I can get.
00:43:44
Speaker
There's something about the way you were talking about it for me made me think of I maybe haven't mentioned it in the show before but uh, I studied philosophy at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and my first contact with Buddhist philosophy was a course offering and Buddhist philosophy And there's this great fascinating curious work and I might have it dated wrong but it's from centuries ago and it's from uh,
00:44:12
Speaker
Buddhist Saint Nagarjuna, and the name of the work is called Mula Marhaya Makikarika, and I hope I got that right. We normally call it MMK for short. But what's fascinating about this work is it's a something rather than nothing. So you have this sage, philosopher, and you have these interlocutors who come to him. And during the course of this book, and you can decide whether it's successful or not,
00:44:40
Speaker
Everybody comes with some things. He shows them to be nothings. He takes on all. And so it's within the subtle point within Buddha's philosophy is flashy things. We see all these type of things.
00:44:54
Speaker
But the thinginess all underneath, get your hands on it. And it's a great exercise because everybody's coming to me, hey, this is surely something. And I'm paraphrasing, of course, but this is surely something. And you'd be like, it's a logical kind of practical treatise. And it isn't just within the tradition, it isn't just for mental exercise. It's soteriological in the sense of this
00:45:21
Speaker
Analysis can help you lead through your salvation if you believe it to be so you can get away from The some things and the other things and experience in life as a flow. So if Nagar's unit was successful the MMK for short, um, I just I just loved that that dynamic and I really loved your answer and You prompted me to think about Nagar's unit, which I hadn't in a little while. I
00:45:48
Speaker
I think, you know, I read something that I go back to constantly is Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Yeah. Shinryo Suzuki. Suzuki. Yeah, I read that. And I constantly go back to that. Like I can just open it up and it's like, oh, this is like addressing exactly what's going on with me. And so I know that there's like, there's a, you know, constant, or I don't want to say constant,
00:46:17
Speaker
maybe concept is a better idea, concept of presence, right? Being present, if you're present now, you're here with what you are and everything that's going on. Like everything else that's something that's bombarding you, something over here, something over here, it's nothing because you're just present, right? You're just present with what you are now. And if you're, you know, relaxed in that moment and you're just like letting it be, then yeah, there's not, there's,
00:46:47
Speaker
That something is nothing, but it's also, you're something, but not really. I love the discussion. I think, and I asked the question too, as a significant philosophical question, but I also understand that within that.
00:47:09
Speaker
You know even defining concepts something or nothing because if you look at nothing from the from Maybe the Buddhist tradition. Nothing isn't any big deal at all. It ain't a big deal versus the idea which is Important is is this a nihilism? Is there nothing is there a vacuum? It's all You know, and that's scary as shit for humans. So it's like how do like what is it? you know, what is it that's the nothing and the something and and
00:47:37
Speaker
I think the joy and the reclamation within you mentioned Zen mind beginner's mind by Suzuki. I think that's one of the greatest books ever written. I'm glad you refer to it and I'm going to remember to refer to it because I remember reading it and it was like breathing and I'm saying I understood it all or I practiced it all but I'm like
00:48:00
Speaker
There is some clarity and wisdom that was just right within there. And it's a good touchstone. Thanks for bringing it up again. Oh, yeah. I love it. I need to read more. I have a good friend who's Buddhist who recommends things all the time. He'll even send me books sometimes. And I'll look at that stuff. And I'll be like, well, this is good. But it's not Zen mind, beginner to mind. Sounds good after that. I need to expand my reading on that a little bit more and open my mind to it a little bit more.
00:48:31
Speaker
And what I think we can do is maybe put a little bit of a list in the show notes for this show, because it's really a great fertile area. And I've approached this question of some of the bigger things from Thomas Merton, who was
00:48:51
Speaker
a monk, but also understood Buddhism, in my opinion, almost better than anybody I've come in contact with, you know, a holy man, a Christian holy man. Yeah, the Jesuit, and I believe as a Benedictine, I could have that wrong, but with Merton, Merton and Suzuki also talked, and what I found beautiful about that conversation
00:49:20
Speaker
And I'll share this too, is that these were two folks jostling and they're jostling in territory. And I thought they were both very close to the truth and just playing in that area. Like that's all I needed. It wasn't, you know, I put the book down and walk away. It's not that it was like, I think they're near the sun or something. So that's fascinating.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, beautiful. I feel like I've always been sort of a, you know, I was raised Catholic and like I got away from it. And I felt like I was always kind of seeking on my own.
Spirituality and Artistic Focus
00:50:04
Speaker
And I remember at some point, you know, before I sort of walked away from all that stuff, I remember feeling like, well, you know, making art
00:50:13
Speaker
you know, making my well, making drawings, I should say, making drawings to me was it was so much a part of my like daily life, like so much part of my, you know, like a ritual for me. When I was much younger, I thought, oh, it's like, you know, for me, this is what prayer really is, like, this is really what this is, you know, making it. And, you know, I got away from that idea. But like, over time, I've sort of reexamined that and feel like
00:50:42
Speaker
there is this definitely like a spiritual element that I'm seeking and like maybe even trying to connect with or portray in the work. And like you mentioned this cover of, of a sea of time with this, yeah, this dear goddess, which is a real, you know, thing in Siberia, ancient, you know, it comes from a book called the ancient ecology of belief, the ancient dear goddess of, or the dear goddess of ancient Siberia by Esther Jacobson,
00:51:11
Speaker
And she talks about the continuum of this, you know, through neolithic times, through like, you know, early, you know, early present times, where it's like this prevalent deer goddess that appears in different forms throughout Siberia, throughout this part of Asia, northern Asia. And I thought, this is what, you know, in a way, this is what stellar is experiencing, right? For me, I felt like
00:51:42
Speaker
The experience that I had in nature in the Alaskan wilderness was, for lack of a better word, lack of a better term, a spiritual experience. It was something where I was no longer distinct from the natural environment. I was aware of how, not when, but
00:52:11
Speaker
that and how I would be subsumed back into this and reintegrated and regurgitated. I felt very connected and very much part of the cycle of everything. And that's what was so like
00:52:32
Speaker
overwhelming and made me feel like, OK, me as a, you know, this ego, you know, individual self is is not really the story here, you know. Yeah, it is. It is completely the story, but it's not the story. It's, you know, it's exactly exactly. Yeah. And I would say I appreciate your comments, too, because on the you know, I think I think any of the show or maybe a lot of the conversations
00:53:01
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of people do feel a spiritual longing. I grew up a Roman Catholic, have a very unique relationship with that. And actually one of my touchstones to understand myself truly has been Jack Kerouac, who grew up in New England, Miltown. I grew up in Pataka, Rhode Island. And of course, Kerouac is up in Lowell, Massachusetts. And I have a lot of Québécois, French-Canadian,
00:53:29
Speaker
background and I encountered Kerouac very late because there's caricatures of who Kerouac is which some are his own doing and otherwise but grew up Roman Catholic didn't even speak English spoke a Dialect of French as a first language then French then English Complete Roman Catholic and but when he went on his journey out West as you might be familiar with of coming in contact with the Dharma and
00:53:57
Speaker
wrote a book some of the dharma the scripture of the golden eternity and if you look at it feels a little bit for the outside a little bit fufi like a little bit strange but this was a deep spiritual writing in in him exploring the wisdom of of zen and of course before he died and you know it's long story and all that he was attracted back to
00:54:23
Speaker
Catholic ghosts and saints and and Mother Mary comforting his pain and Jesus Christ taking I mean that's how it happened for him but I believe like from my background at least saying like I can understand all of that is his journey so for me I've taken a lot of heed in kind of like looking at some of his interactions with you know with you know just with that
00:54:53
Speaker
with that dynamic between Roman Catholicism and... You're in darkness. Yeah. Well, yeah. I was just making a joke.
00:55:03
Speaker
Hey, we had to tell the folks, the listeners, nobody saw this, but we're talking about Kerouac here and we're talking, I don't know, maybe mystical stuff. The sun lamp, which probably Todd T. Edward Bach and I use to survive, or at least I do, turned off during that discussion.
00:55:24
Speaker
I know you're wondering. So yeah, Kerouac, I just wanted to jump in on that and what you know, like is probably one of my favorite books. I absolutely read that stuff. And I don't know if you know this, but like, you know, I, you know, I'm not a place to visit. I don't know if I sent you that book. That was a that's a little collection of Oh, you didn't even know about that book. Maybe I didn't. That's that book is a collection of illustrated
00:55:52
Speaker
essays, like comics essays about different environmental, you know, environmental crossroads and ecological crossroads, cultural crossroads in Oregon, like Wyam, you know, people on the Columbia River, the Salton Sea in California, fracking in Colorado, some family stuff in Colorado. So I did this little book. The name of it is Not a Place to Visit, which comes from a Gary Snyder poem.
Influence of Beat Literature and Rediscovered Works
00:56:19
Speaker
So
00:56:21
Speaker
some uh definitely some beat influence and you know like when I lived in Athens I was definitely like you know very enamored of beat writers and Bukowski and all those guys too and Henry Miller especially like later on too so yeah I was definitely into that stuff much more when I was younger but I still value a lot of that writing you know Karak is really a brilliant mind so
00:56:46
Speaker
I do. I think for me, for me, just talking about my reaction to it, it's punk as fuck. I always been. And, and I think people, I think people get caught up. And when I caught a look, I was, I, I had counted Kerouac and I was in my twenties and it was in an academic setting. And I felt like all my classmates were like tired of life already. Like they had all these formalistic arguments that they had been taught that Kerouac was not, uh,
00:57:12
Speaker
You know good enough for it was you know, they had really strong opinions and I Experienced and say look at the friggin energy in this man. This shit's bringing me to life and that's me I'm not saying everybody has to be that way, but I'm like, are you looking at the same book? I am Yeah, I think they you know, they're it's you know, they're that that group is, you know understandably criticized
00:57:41
Speaker
But also some of it is is too easily dismissed. But, you know, it is it is also, you know, it's the 21st century. Like there's time. It's time to like examine other work, other writers. And, you know, oh, absolutely. Absolutely. From all that stuff, too. So but that's absolutely that that kind of that whole phenomenon, you know, in that era is, you know, definitely always going to be a part of that literature. Right. So
00:58:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. In the same way that like Thoreau would be and those guys, the early romantic people too. Yeah, thank you. Well, we're covering everything. Something, nothing, Kerouac, Alaska, graphic novels, environmental crisis.
00:58:31
Speaker
Where do we find, could you tell the listeners here before we leave off, just kind of really kind of, I mean, there's some pieces of yours as we come through the conversation. I want to get my hands on, I know some listeners will be like, you know, where do I find this? For Portland and online and stuff, can you tell us where to encounter you? Yeah, so I, well, I teach comics classes with Pacific Northwest College of Art and Portland Community College.
00:59:01
Speaker
So those are community ed classes that anyone can take. They're introduction to comics classes that focus on nonfiction comics and graphic novels. I have a Patreon that you are more than welcome to check out and sign up for, subscribe to. I have a lot of great followers and subscribers and sign up folks. I just did sign up, sign up. Yes, thank you Ken, I appreciate that too.
00:59:29
Speaker
Lots of updates on works in progress and things. Maybe making some more small videos for that too. Anyhow, Sea of Time, not a place to visit, can be purchased at Floating World or any fine comic book shops in your community. Also, you can find early stuff in things like Drawn and Quarterly Showcase, Best American Comics, Moam. All these comic book collections have earlier versions of comics that I've done.
00:59:59
Speaker
And yeah, service industry, you'd have to get in touch with me personally, because I have the stock of that. And it's a funny story of how I came to that, but maybe that's for another time. So you have them, it's up to you, because I'll listen.
01:00:18
Speaker
Okay, well what happened was I you know, this book was published back in Originally 2005 and it was not the entire strip. It was a story that Like that I had sort of developed in during the strip and then it was published as all one like standalone story on its own and the publisher Sort of you know, we we got some of it out, you know We promoted it and everything and it's you know got out in the world
01:00:47
Speaker
But the publisher unbeknownst to me lost track of like almost two thirds of the stock. They lost it, you know, or didn't know where it was in this warehouse. And so it was gone for like 15 years. And I really thought, wow, like, I guess that's it. Like, you know, we sold out and then nobody was paying attention anymore. Nobody was ordering anymore.
01:01:09
Speaker
And it was just like done. And I was like, okay, like this experience was a little disappointing, but I understand like, yeah, just a guy on the block. So whatever it's fine. But then it turns out like the publisher distributor guy got in touch with me like last year or two years ago. And he's like, Hey, guess what I found? And I was like, what? And he's like, I found like this big stock of like the year books. And I just want to give them to you because like, you know, we didn't even get to sell them or do anything with it. They didn't get distributed.
01:01:37
Speaker
So I like came into like, you know, kind of a boon of like having, you know, most of the stock that was well, a big chunk of the stock that was left over. And yeah, he shipped a bunch of that stuff to me. So now I have that stuff, you can order it from me. And you can, you can write me on Instagram, I'm on Instagram. And you can find me, I don't know if I should get my email here, you can
01:02:02
Speaker
find me on instagram that's probably the best yeah yeah that's the easiest easiest way thanks thanks for doing that and i i i i really appreciate it i don't overlook the opportunities and the connections i try to make on you know i make on this show and i i just really appreciate the conversation because what happens for me is my mind gets energized and i deepen my understanding or curiosity and um
01:02:28
Speaker
There's a lot of great work coming out of Floating World Comics publishing and the stuff that they carry. If you love independent publishing, if you love any type of comic book or counterculture, Floating World Comics is just really a candy store for your mind in that way.
01:02:52
Speaker
It's nice to talk about, at least as far as a recent Nexus, as far as with you and the show coming in. I had the Greg and Fake from the Santos Sisters comic that Floating World publishes, which is a really cool one.
01:03:09
Speaker
even recorded something rather than nothing podcast episode just within the mall but down away past Floating World with Marouche Masmayan that'll be that'll be coming out so yeah I mean thank you for mentioning that kind of because I was tapping in tapping into the vibe because I wanted some of the
01:03:32
Speaker
I don't know, mall acoustics or whatever's happening there to capture some of that floating world. But if you have the ability to order from Floating World or visit it yourself, you can hear in our enthusiasm as a place to get some jazzy art. So I wanted to thank you, Todd, T. Edward Bach.
01:03:57
Speaker
to get his stuff, incredible conversation with you and got me thinking about a lot of things. This is something rather than nothing.