Transcript
Speaker: I think the most common mistake that headquarters organizations make is to assume that everything is just like it is at at the headquarters, right? Hello and welcome to the Auto Ethnographer.
Speaker: I'm John Steck, your host on this journey. We travel the globe to bring you stories about culture and the global automotive industry. Fasten your seat belt and let's get started. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Autoethnographer.
Speaker: I'm really thrilled to introduce the guest this week, Toscan Bennett. This gentleman has lived in so many places and worked for so many brands that if I did an introduction that listed every single brand, this would be a three-part podcast episode.
Speaker: So I think we're gonna jump right in. And I think through the course of the conversation, all of the different brands will emerge during the conversation with Toscan.
Speaker: Let's just suffice to say that this has covered numerous continents and brands from the the highest, most aspirational levels down to startups that practically nobody has heard of.
Speaker: and a lot of very well-known brands in between on the economic scale. So welcome to the autoethnographer, Toscana. It's really great to have you here. Thanks, John. Happy to be here.
Speaker: Well, let's let's try to explore this from the very beginning. um You had a really unique childhood and and upbringing, which really planted the seed for your international career. Can you talk a little bit about about your background and and the interesting beginning that you had outside of the U.S.?
Speaker: Yeah, happily, John. but I think we're referred to as third country or third culture kids. So ah this is something I learned in in my adulthood, how people describe the way I grew up.
Speaker: And it was my normal. So I was born in Vietnam and I grew up in Asian Latin America, the son of a diplomat. And when you grow up like that,
Speaker: ah you don't know anything else. For me, it it created a lot of um positive things. You know, you're you're very open to cultures and and and change.
Speaker: um But I think there are also some challenges that come with it, not least of which is when it comes time to settle down in life, you don't really have a home. ah You don't know where where you belong, where do you fit. So that's that's one of the difficulties. But, you know,
Speaker: On balance, I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. This has been a great experience. And you know my father was a diplomat. I, at one point, thought of following in his footsteps. i've I've enjoyed that same lifestyle, but I've been doing it in an industry which I really love and am passionate about.
Speaker: Oh, that's fantastic. And so just out of curiosity, when was the first time that you visited the US, your technically home country? Or or even when when did you live there for the first time?
Speaker: Yeah, so as I mentioned, I was born in Vietnam 1963. ah And in 1965, the war had heated up to the point where dependents were evacuated and we we were sent back to the U.S. So the family moved. And the first time I lived, set foot in the U.S. was in 1965 when I was two years old as ah as a baby.
Speaker: We stayed there for another six years, roughly. and then we moved to the the Dominican Republic when I was guess about seven or eight years old.
Speaker: You were born outside of the US, then you you lived in the US briefly, ah moved outside again. i mean, at what point did you realize that that you were developing this kind of cultural fluency, you know, that that that you had roots that were easily transportable from one pot to another?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great question. um as I mentioned, for me, it was by normal. um So I didn't It wasn't different for me. It was simply the way I grew up.
Speaker: It reminds me of the old joke about the the fish, the old fish that swims by the two younger fish and asks one, how's how's the water?
Speaker: And the the young fish says to the other young fish, what's water? And for me, i think I only actually realized that um I was sort of different when I became an adult and and started working in environments where my background was was unusual.
Speaker: Growing up in high school and in in university, I had lots of international friends. um I still traveled a lot. So for for me, that was that was normal.
Speaker: But ah I recognized that I fit very well into this kind of cross-cultural environment. I like the challenges it present. And it it was something that I really enjoyed. And and so that's that's why I tried to pursue this international career.
Speaker: and And you had told me one time that these international jobs with with brands and companies around the globe, that they tended to to find you, I think is what you told me.
Speaker: what, what did the global organizations see in in you? Did they, I guess, value this experience that you had this, this fluidity with cultures?
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. ah You know, I started my international, well, I started my first job was with Alfa Romeo in the US. So I was working with Italians, traveling to Italy from time to time. Then I transitioned to Ferrari.
Speaker: So I had that experience of working with with international folks and and and traveling to Europe. And then I subsequently moved then to Chrysler. And I think that ah they were coming back to Europe in the 90s and rebuilding their business. and they were looking for people who were interested in in in building that business up. And i i was I was very interested in that. So I think that my willingness to work abroad and to work in those international environments, um combined with the experience that I got over time is is what made me more and more attractive to to this kind of assignment. In fact, I think as you um progress in your career, you tend to get a little bit pigeonholed. So for for me, it was it was normal to work in these these international assignments. I think a normal
Speaker: sort of, i don't know, domestic assignment might've been a little bit boring for me and and probably I wouldn't have necessarily been the best fit for that. um But I really, um my career was especially, i can I can give credit to my boss at Mitsubishi Europe, who I connected to fairly early in my career. He recruited me to come to the Netherlands to work in Mitsubishi Europe. And then as he progressed in his career, i followed him ah to actually,
Speaker: to the US with Volkswagen of America, and then also to Sweden with Volvo cars. And he even recommended me for my assignment, my last assignment at Seer, which is an EV startup in Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia's first EV brand. So he appreciated my, I think, ah cultural fluency and my flexibility and my customer focus. And that's that's why I think he kept hiring me.
Speaker: Okay, so for the listeners who are not keeping track, I'm keeping score here. You have just listed seven brands in this relatively short this relatively short description. um So everyone can rewind and capture back those seven brands that you just listed. And there are a lot more to go. Well, I joke that, yeah, I couldn't keep a job job.
Speaker: Well, it's a good thing that you always managed to find a new one. And you did so quite successfully. Well, like I said, very often they found me. Now that's, that's, that's great.
Speaker: Now, obviously there there's something about the way that you view the world, um, that is kind of like a bridge function, a bridging function, right? Between one culture and another culture. Um, and this would be very evident. Anybody who's worked in the corporate environment knows and has said something, you know, as a joke about the head office, about how they're located so far away and they don't know anything. Um,
Speaker: Now, you've worked for those seven brands and and lots more, and I'm sure more will come up right now when I ask you this question. um Headquarters, they always misunderstand what's going on in the local market. Can you talk about maybe one of the most common misunderstandings that the headquarters have as as you know you talk to them from ah from from another market outside of the country?
Speaker: Yeah, I think, uh, well, in fairness, I would say that, uh, headquarters, uh, misunderstands very often, misunderstands, uh, local markets, regional markets, but equally, I think sometimes, uh, when you're in the region, uh, you have to have an understanding and appreciation for how things work at headquarters too. There needs to be the right balance there, but to answer your question specifically, I think the most common mistake that headquarters organizations make is to assume that everything is just like it is at at the headquarters, right? And, uh,
Speaker: So there's a desire to impose processes, policies, customer expectations, all those kinds of things, just as they are in the home market.
Speaker: I mean, what works there? Why why shouldn't it work abroad, right? And sometimes that makes sense. and And sometimes it's a good idea, but very often it's not. And especially when it comes to things like customer needs and and local kind of cultural adaptations. So it's understandable that all these differences drive complexity. Complexity drives costs and extra efforts and organizations don't like that. They they want to to minimize that. But if you're going to be competitive overseas, you have to find the right balance between these things. You you need to be both global and local.
Speaker: Now, you told me one time that there was ah an automaker in Detroit. You've already you've already divulged a name earlier um that kind of looked at Europe as as one market.
Speaker: and And if they're trying to go in and conquer Europe by reentering the the the continent, um that That doesn't work.
Speaker: Can you tell me what moment maybe taught to you about the limits of centralized thinking, especially when you're looking at Europe as ah as a single market? Yeah, yeah. So I mentioned my first overseas assignment was with Chrysler. Chrysler was coming back from bankruptcy in the 80s, and they had actually exited Europe.
Speaker: They re-entered in the early 90s and they were building their business selling Jeeps and minivans, which were kind of niche products, but there weren't really a lot of European competitors for those. So they were showing some some good success.
Speaker: We were building the business, working with distributors. it was It was kind of a ah a small, you know lean, mean ah organization and and the business was growing very fast.
Speaker: And Chrysler at the time was also getting more and more successful. And as, as the business got more successful, there was a decision made in Detroit that, well, we should start to acquire our local distribution rights back from private importers.
Speaker: And we should set up a European headquarters um to to set the stage for the next level of growth in the in the European business. And on the surface of it, that makes perfect sense, right? um Except that and it it shows the the commitment of the company to make the investment and to to to set the strategy for Europe.
Speaker: um I think though, um There were some there was some headquarters naivete in the thinking. so we we As we acquired the distribution rights back, we built up a ah big headquarters in Brussels and sent a lot of expats over who ah didn't necessarily have um international experience and maybe lacked the understanding for some of the cultural sensitivities and the fact that these these markets are are quite different. So yes, Europe was harmonizing.
Speaker: at that time, no no doubt no doubt about it. But I think I saw or I recognize the kind of feeling that the folks back in Detroit saw the United States of Europe coming.
Speaker: And yes, there was supposed to be a common currency and all that. But anybody on the ground in Europe would recognize that in spite of this harmonization, there's still huge cultural differences, regulatory differences, tax differences, infrastructure differences, and just trying to ah take a U.S. zone office approach and applying that to the to the European continent that that would have some challenges associated with it. And and I think ah particularly in the product space, that was difficult. So that was that was one of our our biggest challenges was to to convince the engineers back home or back in in Detroit that these products had had different requirements for different customer expectations in Europe. Right.
Speaker: And, you know, when when you... ultimately have to communicate those differences. ah You've once before told me a story ah literally about where the rubber meets the road, where you brought some engineers to some local roads in order to experience what driving is like beat because they didn't quite comprehend the road conditions. and And this was something that, you know, I guess it was chassis engineers that had to tune in suspensions and springs and things like this. But but without seeing it for themselves, they they wouldn't know. ah Can you and know recount that story?
Speaker: I think it's it's basic human nature. You don't really understand something until you've experienced it yourself firsthand. And this is ah not to single out Detroit engineers. This is true of engineers all over the world, whether you're in Japan or Germany or what have you.
Speaker: um This specific example, though, talking about our our Chrysler colleagues, I think when when you come to Europe and you drive on a German Autobahn at night in the rain, ah you start to recognize that, hmm, maybe the headlights aren't as bright as they need to be. And, hmm, maybe the wipers start to lift off the windscreen at at at high speed. And, hmm,
Speaker: the the wind noise here is deafening, right? So those kinds of things, this this experience of of having this this first-hand knowledge is something that I think many of the engineers took to heart and brought back and and took really concrete steps to adapt the products more for for European needs. um I think there was another huge benefit from these drives and I was a big fan of of organizing and promoting these drives within the companies wherever i were
Speaker: this product knowledge is something and i think is just so fundamental. It also allowed us to build up relationships with our colleagues and to build up trust with them so that we became go-to people when engineers had questions about local market needs and conditions or when really critical decisions were going to be made back at the headquarters, they would often reach out to us to confirm that this is the decision was being made
Speaker: the right way. So I think that was actually one of the most satisfying and and most enjoyable experiences I had. As I mentioned, not just with American engineers, but I did this in in Volkswagen. There was a huge culture of test drives all the way up to the very top of the company.
Speaker: they They did them practically weekly, monthly, and all over the world. But this was also something we did in Mitsubishi, and and so forth so this this is this is really fundamental to to the car business and fundamental to being customer focused.
Speaker: So you just mentioned Mitsubishi. So you're talking about up until now about tuning certain existing products to the European market. But I believe that you were part of a team that was basically ah defining and and developing the Mitsubishi cult, in case anybody remembers that car, from from the ground up. and and And this was really a ah ah team ah to design this car from Germans, Americans, Japanese, French, people from all over the world.
Speaker: and And it was a car that was indeed, so I believe, supposed to sell all around the world. how How did that work out? Because that's a ah really disparate group of cultures working together, each one very different.
Speaker: how How could that be successful? Was it successful? Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess, you know, success is measured in different ways. But um this was, these these kinds of projects are born of necessity, right? So this was at the time after the Daimler Chrysler merger, ah Mitsubishi became an alliance partner of Daimler Chrysler.
Speaker: And the Mitsubishi business in Europe was in in a very, bad way and transition to Mitsubishi. um But this cold project, we called it the new compact car, the the NCC. And it was indeed a joint venture between Mitsubishi engineers, ah Daimler, specifically smart engineers, Mercedes engineers.
Speaker: And then we also had Chrysler side engineering and product planning in the mix as well. So you had this um incredible mix of cultures. You had ah The Daimler culture, which is a very hierarchical, precise, kind of top-down culture. You had the the Japanese, more humble, but still, I would say, a proud culture.
Speaker: um And you had the Chrysler culture, which I sometimes refer to as a little bit the cowboy culture, right? It was a little bit shoot from the hip and make decisions very quickly.
Speaker: um And then just to, because things weren't spicy enough, we had a French chief designer in in the mix as well. So you can imagine the these the All these different people coming from different cultures, different companies, ah it it was incredibly complex, incredibly difficult.
Speaker: But in the end, I think the playbook is always the same. You have to focus on a customer needs. You have to build trust and build relationships with your partners.
Speaker: You have to understand what's important to those partners. And I think it's always important to communicate, but in an environment like this, with three different cultures involved, three different companies involved, um it's it's all about communicate, communicate, communicate. And I think this is one of the reasons why mergers often fail, ah because there is this cultural clash and this stuff is really, really hard. And in the end, Don McCleyser merger failed and and and the Mitsubishi piece of that as as well failed.
Speaker: But we did we did actually end up ah producing, I think, a very, very credible, respectable car in that space. And it's something that we could be proud of.
Speaker: But at the cultural level, at the corporate level, things changed. yeah fell apart Now that's, that is a real, a real challenge. and And, and really when you, when you think Germans, Americans, Japanese, and and French, it's so completely different.
Speaker: Now, you you also earlier, you mentioned even a completely different culture working for Volvo. And when when you ah went with this one leader that that you went to multiple companies with that you alluded to, um that at Volvo, you had a very interesting um, requirement set forth to you by um, which flies in the face of what you mentioned about Daimler and being top down. Can you talk about that a little bit? Cause I love this story.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, this is something I'll never forget. It was at my official HR onboarding at Volvo. And, um, I remember being told that, uh, a Volvo employee, uh,
Speaker: it doesn't just consider it, uh, their right. They consider it their obligation to, how can I say this, to work against or to undermine decisions that they don't, uh, think are correct or that they don't support.
Speaker: And I think, I remember being told this and I think, well, what, how does this work? What kind of company is this? But, um, I mean, the good thing is that they recognize that and they and they they discuss it openly. But it just it it underlies the importance of consensus, I think, in Swedish culture and specifically in Volvo culture. So top-down decisions in that kind of a culture really don't work.
Speaker: And what happens is with this consensus culture, you you need to do a lot of communication, a lot of pre-work. Actually, it's not unlike what you have to do in Japanese culture as well.
Speaker: um And if it works, ah once a decision is made, everybody's behind it and things get executed pretty quickly. But it can be a very you know difficult birth getting to that point.
Speaker: ah And again, if you try to impose top down decisions in a culture like that, ah the organization just rejects it and and people will be actively working to undermine it. So that's that's that was quite an eye opener when I moved to Volvo.
Speaker: I have to say I had similar experience where where we had a meeting in Gothenburg one time to decide something. And we went around the room and at least visually a few people grudgingly nodded their heads.
Speaker: And then as soon as we went out of the room, turned off the lights, closed the door, the dissent started in the hallway. And probably within another seven days, there had to be another meeting ah but because that that dissent turned into you know going against the decision of the of the group.
Speaker: um ah Apparently, someone wasn't happy during the during the meeting and it had to be re-decided with some changes made to the decision. Yeah, very, very difficult and very important that people recognize and and understand this going into that kind of environment.
Speaker: I have to admit, um working with with Volvo myself, it was probably the most surprising culture because I went in mistakenly thinking that they were somewhat more Germanic.
Speaker: and being German myself. And so i I made that mistake and I learned very quickly that this was absolutely not the case, that like you said, that there's much more consensus driven, it's not so much top down, it's not quite a structured as as the Germans tend to operate.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I i had a similar experience. Now that was, that was my surprise. Um, what about you? What, what was for you that the most surprising corporate culture you've already talked to you, you've worked for Italians, you've worked for Americans, you've worked for Swedish, you worked in Saudi Arabia with Seer, you mentioned, and you have a couple more in different parts of the world that you can, that you can bring into the factor into the, um,
Speaker: Yeah, think it's, of course, difficult to say which was the most surprising. But I would agree with you. For me, Volvo was also very surprising. And started with this early onboarding experience and and ah learning about the importance of consensus.
Speaker: um I found that Volvo is also an extremely process-driven company. They have processes and policies for everything. And they follow these. it's It's one thing to write them down, but it's another thing ah how how precisely they followed these rules. You had to follow all the processes.
Speaker: um And so that was something else that that required getting getting accustomed to, getting used to. um Any kind of small organizational change, you know, you had to to clear this with the union and you had to to pre-align it in the whole structure. there was It was very difficult to do anything quickly in that kind of context. um On the bright side, though, there were there were really interesting things like um FICA, the the FICA culture. And the first time you experience the FICA culture, you think, what is this? I mean, work basically stops in the department. Everybody gathers around. You sit down and you have coffee and cake and you discuss. And it's it's ah it's it's not something that's informal. it's Well, it's it's both formal and informal, but it it has a rhythm and it... and it
Speaker: it's It's something they take very, very seriously. um I think the other thing that I really enjoyed in working at the headquarters there was the four-week summer shutdown, right? So this was something that it was coming from most of the companies where I had worked. The idea that you would shut down a company for four weeks was kind of shocking.
Speaker: So your your first question is, well, how does that work? And then you realize that actually the whole country of Sweden basically shuts down for those four weeks. And it's not unusual for some employees to take five or six weeks off during the summer shutdown.
Speaker: And somehow they make it work. I'm still not totally clear on on why it works, but um the whole scheduling and rhythm is is built around this this summer shutdown.
Speaker: And of course it is a reward for having survived the dark, cold, dreary, wet, swedish winter and i think that anybody who's lived in Sweden and knows how important it is to appreciate those those bright ah summer days. um I think the other culture that i surprised me was ah VinFast. there's There's a brand that we haven't discussed yet.
Speaker: There's number eight. Yeah, so I wasn't at VinFast for very long, but when I got there, it was very, very early on as the company was developing. I think it was in the in the first year or so of of the startup phase.
Speaker: And it was the speed with which decisions were made and the speeds with which they were implemented, a little bit the opposite of the Volvo culture.
Speaker: was just breathtaking. I mean, i had been i had been in cultures where where that decision-making and things happened quickly, but I had never seen anything like VinFast. the industry, I think people thought that the Chinese were fast, but I think...
Speaker: VinFast made decisions and implemented stuff at this at a pace which was which was even faster than what but we'd experienced in China. And I think this was enabled by this incredible top-down kind of hierarchical culture.
Speaker: And I mean, there are some pros to that, but there are also some cons. Sometimes decisions are changed very quickly. The strategy sometimes changed very quickly. So, um but it was still, it it i guess the good side of it is it shows how quickly something could happen. That was that was very impressive at FinFest.
Speaker: I, having also worked at Vinfast, I can tell you that years later that did not change. It continues to work at an ultra fast pace, even, even until today.
Speaker: I was there in 2022 and early
Speaker: So just one thing I wanted to go back on the on the Volvo discussion when mentioned about the the process and procedures and adhering to those rules. If i remember correctly, you were you were at Volvo um actually very shortly after it's separated from Ford, ah from the Ford ownership, and it became really kind of a freestanding company with relatively, let's say, kind of looser oversight from the new Chinese owner, Geely.
Speaker: um I remember when when I joined Volvo, I think we overlapped briefly, that there was this saying that people always said was, you can take Volvo out of Ford, but you can't get the Ford out of Volvo, which the Ford was apparently the very process-driven, data-driven, um you know procedural, follow-the-rules aspect with within that Volvo corporate culture. At least that's how i I remember it from about a decade ago.
Speaker: I think that's exactly right, John. I had the same experience. I never worked at Ford, but my colleagues at Volvo when when i asked him about these policies and procedures, um they they had really embraced the the kind of culture of all of these different policies and procedures, which again has pros and cons. um ah But that that saying about you can take Volvo out of Ford, but you can't take Ford out of Volvo is I think exactly, exactly right.
Speaker: And ah again, part of the Swedish culture, I think, is it's not it's not just having all the policies and procedures. It's how how ah rigidly they adhere to them.
Speaker: And that was that was that was also something to to adjust to. they they they They took them up a notch, right, to to the next power.
Speaker: No, exactly. i've I found the same. i found the same. And then that there was actually, um years later, there was, uh, really almost a kind of purposeful trying to tear down some of that culture. Right. And, and to remove some of those, those hurdles and, and those restraints and constraints that, that slowed things down in order to move faster.
Speaker: Well, given given what we said about the consensus, the importance of consensus, if that's to succeed, they have to get everybody on board to do it. True. it It almost becomes circular in this sense and and hard to break free free from. Now, you know you've you've alluded already, of course, to to the consumers, to the customers earlier. And, you know, we've been talking about the corporate culture and so on. And you know the the real question is how...
Speaker: you know how do you adapt to consumer expectations? They're so vastly different, right? i know this is a old cliche, but you know in in the Netherlands, towing capacity is is important. You're in the Netherlands. I don't know if you have a trailer outside or not. In Germany, Autobahn performance is is extremely important. You already talked about, you have to have windshield wipers that don't flutter on on the windshield at high speed. and And then you have K cars in Japan.
Speaker: very, very different. and And it all fits the needs of the consumers. Which market surprised you the most in terms of what customers need? Like, where were you just shocked? You know what, I have to plan that into the car?
Speaker: Yeah, gosh, there's so many examples of this, but I think one of the most striking ones has to do with how tax rules drive different customer behaviors and and ultimately end up in in different kinds of segments being developed in in countries.
Speaker: So in Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, these are relatively high tax countries when it comes to buying cars. In some cases, just prohibitively high.
Speaker: um But there are always ways of getting around these taxes. So in these countries, the authorities would exempt so-called commercial vehicles, which were, let's say, two passenger vehicles with a typical commercial van.
Speaker: the you think of it. But what ah the rules were unspecific about which kinds of vehicles could be fitting into this this category, which would then result in this big tax exemption. So ah especially in the Chrysler business, we actually sold a lot of vehicles that you wouldn't think of as commercial. You could take ah an SUV, a luxury SUV like a Jeep Grand Cherokee,
Speaker: And they would remove the rear seats, they would blind the rear the rear windows and effectively turn it into a commercial vehicle, um ah to a two seat commercial vehicle. But this this had such a huge tax savings that it was it was surprising how many people would actually make a decision to buy a car like this. So...
Speaker: I think examples like that ah are are something that really struck me. And it just shows you also the ingenuity of um customers or or or how how people work to find ways to exploit tax loopholes. There's a legendary story in the Netherlands of there was a period when Porsche 911 could actually qualify for this commercial exemption. You could blind the rear windows and well not that there are seats in a Porsche 911, but there was, I'm told a commercial version Porsche 911, which was introduced and which was sold and and fit fit the requirements without having to pay the tax. But of course, you know, these rules change the the governments as the customers adapt, the governments adapt, and then the game starts all over again.
Speaker: so ah But, you know, it it it still exists. And then talking about the Netherlands as well with this towing culture, i mean, it's a cliche, but it's true. ah the Netherlands are really, really avid towers, caravanners.
Speaker: um I remember when Chrysler, after we'd introduced the Viper, there was even a Dutch customer who installed tow hitch to his Viper. so this This was another legendary thing.
Speaker: And I think also another good example of this is MPVs in Asia. I mean, in Europe and the US, MPVs are either family haulers for soccer moms or their commercial vehicles.
Speaker: In Asia or specifically in Japan, i was stunned to learn that an MPV could be considered sexy, ah that it was it was something, a category of vehicles which had a completely different perception from customers. or a luxury vehicle that businessmen traveled in. So um these these kind of, the cultural lens with which people see different kinds of vehicles is is just stunning how different it is.
Speaker: I would agree with you there in terms of the MPVs or or vans, minivans here in Asia. I was just on the Thailand motor expo a week ago and the MPVs from all of the different brands that offer them, whether it was Lexus or Toyota or some of the Chinese brands, Denza, it's so luxurious. um it's It's absolutely the new luxury car. You have so much space. and And that's what you see when you look on the streets here. Those are the new luxury car.
Speaker: It's interesting that that that hasn't translated over to the U.S. where consumers still seem to stay away from them, especially because maybe they're they were driven around and won as a kid and they don't want their mom's car.
Speaker: Exactly right. Yeah. you know, obviously you you you learn these things through experience and and and talking to consumers. um Is there anything where, for example, research that was done kind of turned over some of your assumptions where you learned something, i don't know, through a clinic or or a survey that just blew apart something that you just assumed in the in the past?
Speaker: Yeah. I am. Well, the short answer to that is when the research, when the data wasn't aligned with my own kind of preconceptions or or preferences, I think that's when I thought, hey, wait a minute.
Speaker: what's What's going on here? You know, what's wrong with me or what's wrong with the consumers here? Why do they see it differently than I do? um i'm I'm a great believer in research. I've been responsible for research in a number of different roles that I've had. And I think it's an incredibly important tool in the car industry for understanding consumer preferences.
Speaker: I think research is often misunderstood, misinterpreted, misapplied. um it's Often it's not even sometimes done properly, um but incredibly important, especially if you want to truly understand what but consumers' preferences are.
Speaker: An example of this ah that I learned a lot from was the the introduction of the Chrysler PT Cruiser back in the day. the The PT Cruiser was an unusual car, not just because of how it looked, but also because it was extremely successful. It was a small car and it was profitable, which is a tough nut to crack in the car business, is small a well-selling car, which is is also profitable. And o for that reason, it was also, I think, very very much misunderstood.
Speaker: um But it that car's genesis came from research. It came from a ah unique kind of research which was done. And the research demonstrated that there were a group of customers who loved the car when they were shown the car in in sort of ah prototype form.
Speaker: ah And we were able to identify a subset of early adopters who were extremely enthusiastic about this car. And equally, there was another group of customers who hated it. They couldn't stand it.
Speaker: it was It was awful. So you had this extremely polarizing design. But the research convinced us that there were enough of these early adopters that were enthusiastic about the car. And if you get them to buy it, then others will follow And it was a huge bet at the time. It was it was a ah a real mold-breaking design, ah but incredibly successful.
Speaker: And the genesis of that car was research. um Through my career, i learned a lot about different kinds of research, whether it's conjoint research or whether it's um you know price positioning research.
Speaker: Research, when it's done properly, is an incredibly powerful tool. um Unfortunately, people who don't understand it or aren't familiar with it, very often um will either, they'll either use it to try to prove what they believe instead of taking the the insights which they get and and and applying them, um or they will um just reject the whole notion of research. ill You know, know there's there's a famous story that Elon Musk doesn't rely on research.
Speaker: um I don't know if that's true or not, but I think um at the end of the day, you have to find a way to understand what customers want. Conjoint research for optimizing content, all these kinds of things. I could talk a long time about this i'm i'm very enthusiastic about data and about research
Speaker: Well, to to allow your mind to to be changed by, you know, objective data, this is an important trait, right? Some people will look at at data and they'll discount it because it doesn't happen to line up with their personal understanding of things.
Speaker: you've You've one time said to me that change is inevitable. You must embrace change. what's What's the hardest change that you've ever had to embrace? you've You've talked, of course, about research and letting that drive, change of mind on product.
Speaker: The hardest change, is that something related to product or or something else? I think for me, the hardest change was reintegrating, or actually, I wasn't reintegrating, but I was integrating into a global headquarters organization.
Speaker: You know, I've already talked about my Chrysler career. I started media abroad. So when I was sent home, quote unquote, to Detroit, um I was an integrating expat at the headquarters and i was absolutely lost.
Speaker: So I went, you know, I went from a relatively small regional headquarters into this behemoth, you know, 10,000 people working at the the the headquarters there.
Speaker: and I think um for an average returning expat, it's hard enough. um They've been away for a few years. Their network might've gotten stale.
Speaker: um They might've had new experiences, which um they want to share with their colleagues back in the domestic organization. And in the domestic organization, they might be, yeah um my why should we pay attention to this, right? like this everything's working great here. This is, so um this, this experience of having been abroad, having been out of sight, out of mind, that makes integration as an expat, I think very, very difficult. In my case, it was even more difficult because for me, the reintegration, the integration was kind of the foreign assignment, right?
Speaker: um I had no network at the headquarters. um The, the folks in the headquarters really didn't know what to make of me. i was, I was a, trying to integrate into the domestic organization, but I only had international experience.
Speaker: And also with my background and my name, people, they thought of me as a foreigner. They didn't think of me as an American. So I had definitely big issues integrating back to the headquarters.
Speaker: I think by my nature, I'm also more comfortable in a smaller organization. This gigantic, this being a tiny fish in a big pond was was difficult for me. In the end, this problem solved itself because when Mitsubishi became an alliance partner for for diamond chrysler i was recruited yeah by uh by my boss at mitsubishi stephan jacobi and i went back overseas again that was that was how i solved that problem but it was it was very very challenging and i know that um this is uh not unusual this is an experience that many expats in many companies have
Speaker: Now, it's it's incredible. First of all, it's it's it's humorous that they didn't accept you or understand you as an American with with with your name or or kind of your your journey in the company.
Speaker: But you've, you've moved overseas and back and forth so many times. um and And I think you've even, you mentioned that you were at Vinfast for a very short time. and I'm guessing you probably didn't take your family with you at that time, but, but there was always a family involved. How did you manage this with, with a family moving so often or perhaps even having separation from them for a while? This is true resilience.
Speaker: Yeah, it's I think ah it's exactly right. um Look, life is full of trade-offs. So the opportunity of an exciting new job in in a location which is maybe not optimal or maybe difficult to move to for for the family um creates the need to make sometimes tough decisions.
Speaker: I was incredibly lucky. i have a wife who always supported my decisions, even if it meant her own sacrifice.
Speaker: And there were instances where At the end, for the benefit of the family, we decided that it made sense to live apart for a period of time. And it might it might have meant an extended commute, or it might have meant only seeing each other once a month. um there were it's it's ah It's a very challenging thing to do. We always made decisions as a family. We tried to include the kids as well. My kids are very adaptable. I have a son and a daughter.
Speaker: um, who I think to some degree growing up with international parents and, and, and moving around, they, they have this experience, but, um, you know, kids, kids also are, um, are different. Um, uh, some are very open to these kinds of moves and, and, and others are not, but anyway, long story short, um there were these experiences where we did live apart. Um, it can work.
Speaker: Uh, I think, uh, It's not for everybody. um in In our case, it was very important to have an idea of an end date. I think if if if we had been doing this with the idea of it being indefinite, that that wouldn't have worked.
Speaker: But I was also struck when I did this and I started to recognize how many of my colleagues
Speaker: We're also in similar positions, whether it was um commuting back to another city in the same country or or commuting, basically living apart from the partner for some for some period of time. It's really not unusual in my experience or not as unusual as you might think it might be.
Speaker: But um it requires, it definitely requires um some sacrifices and as you said, some some resiliency. And for me, I think of, again, very important, an end date. What what advice, other than maybe the having a firm end date, is is there advice you would give to an expat family and on how they would protect their well-being?
Speaker: So the best solution is when the family makes the decision and it's all in to do this together. Together. And yeah, I mean, I think if if you can keep the family together, that's fantastic. um Sometimes for all different kinds of reasons, that's that's not possible.
Speaker: um My recollection of expats who got the most out of their assignments are the ones who took full advantage of being in this new foreign place.
Speaker: They, every weekend, traveled, they explored the country, they got out of the expat bubble. um they you know for for For somebody who lived there, they they wouldn't have done all of this travel that these expats were doing because the expats knew that they were only there for a fixed period of time and they wanted to take full advantage of So sometimes I was stunned at the kinds of trips and travel that that some of my colleagues were doing.
Speaker: um But I think that was that paid huge dividends for them and for their family to have this experience to explore. i mean, for me, um I've lived an exp extended period of time and in Europe and and the U.S., so it's less important, I think, in my case to do that.
Speaker: But my most recent assignment in Saudi Arabia, that was going to a region which I had very little experience in and about.
Speaker: And I had a great deal to learn and to absorb about the culture and the history in that region. So um that's that's something where I and my family, we we really took it upon ourselves to to embrace this region and to to try and discover more about it.
Speaker: So that would be my advice. Make decisions as a family and take full advantage of everything that is there when you're when you're in this foreign environment.
Speaker: I think that's absolutely perfect advice to to separate from the expat bubble and and to see what the local culture that you're embedded in for a certain period of time really offers to you.
Speaker: I think that's fantastic. I think we're getting to the end of the episode. um i just wanted to ask if you had any last points that came into mind during our conversation, kind of closing words from from your side.
Speaker: So I will repeat what I consider to be my mantra, and you've mentioned a couple of times during the course of this discussion, which is and it's something I learned very, very early in my career, which is change is inevitable.
Speaker: Embrace change because it's inevitable. And um finally, I think especially i think it's good general advice, but especially for expats, ah grow and maintain your network.
Speaker: um You will meet again. In my case, that's that's been a huge part of how my career has developed is ah the different people that I've met along the way, what I've learned from them. And how those people have reached out to me later in my career and it's led to wonderful new challenges, new assignments. So change is inevitable, embrace change, build and grow your network.
Speaker: And yeah, keep learning. so I think those are incredibly wise words and certainly and everybody would do do very well to abide by those.
Speaker: Toscan, I think it's a great conversation. By my count, I think we reached eight of your 11 brands. So I'll have to put into the show notes which ones we missed. Okay.
Speaker: Very good. I'll put the full list into the into the show notes. So thank thank you very much for for joining today. It's been a really great conversation. And like I said, we could probably make 20 episodes based on all of the different experiences you've had around the globe. All right. Well, I've really enjoyed it, John. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to talking to you again.
Speaker: Perfect. Well, with that, I'd like to end the episode. Thank you very much to the listeners for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed it as well. It's truly been a journey around the planet several times based on Toscan's experience.
Speaker: Until next week, keep on driving. Thank you for joining us on today's journey. Please remember to like and subscribe to The Auto Ethnographer and leave us a rating or comment.
Speaker: For more information, visit our website at auto-ethnographer.com. You can also follow on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
