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EP 22: Ageism – a conversation about its impact in Vietnam and the United States
37 Plays1 month ago
This episode tackles ageism a growing issue across the globe. Along with two distinguished human resources experts, Auto Ethnographer host John Stech takes on the topic of age discrimination in the context of the American and Vietnamese cultures.
Discussing that today are Tamica Sears, The Corporate Fixer and Founder of Sears Coaching, a human resources consulting agency. She has built her vast experience working with Fortune 500 companies including Raytheon and Gannett, among others. Tamica is also the author of management book, How to tell if you’re an A**hole Boss. Learn more about the book here: https://a.co/d/93hOqnU
Joining Tamica is Kelvin Nguyen, an experienced corporate recruiter, member of VinGroup’s (Vietnam’s largest private company) talent team, and Co-Founder of Pharaon, a premier lifestyle management service that helps high-performing individuals and executives reclaim their time and enhance their day-to-day lives.
We start the conversation by defining what ageism means within each nation’s culture. Thanks to Hollywood, the fashion industry, and social media, American culture has an obsession with youth. Stereotypes lead to considering grey-haired people as dinosaurs and of less value in the workplace. Meanwhile, in Vietnam, a combination of Buddhist and Confucian influences combine to place veneration on age and experience.
But mindsets are changing rapidly as technology evolves. In America the situation is rapidly becoming more ominous for workers of age. Meanwhile, in Vietnam, long-held cultural values are under pressure from fast-evolving technology.
Tamica, Kelvin, and John explore these mindsets, the current situation in each nation, and future expectations in a 45-minute conversation.
You can learn more about Tamica Sears and Sears Consulting at http://www.thecorporatefixers.com/
You can learn more about Kelvin Nguyen’s Pharaon at https://pharaon.vn
Follow The Auto Ethnographer’s homepage at https://www.auto-ethnographer.com
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Transcript
Introduction to The Auto Ethnographer Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The most important thing is look inside yourself, not look outside. Because anything comes, if you are strong enough inside, you can get getting through.
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Auto Ethnographer. I'm John Steck, your host on this journey. We travel the globe to bring you stories about culture and the global automotive industry. Fasten your seatbelt and let's get started.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Auto Ethnographer.
Introducing Guests: Tamika Sears and Kelvin Nguyen
00:00:29
Speaker
This week I have not one, but two fantastic guests, and they're located almost totally are on the opposite sides of the planet from each other.
00:00:38
Speaker
One is in Arizona in the United States, and the other one is in Hanoi, Vietnam. Both are experts in the human resources and talent recruiting fields. And we're going to tackle the topic of ageism, which is something that's been popping up in my life a lot more, given that peers are reaching out and talking to me about it.
00:00:59
Speaker
I want to look at it from the perspective of culture and how ageism is reflected in different cultures around the globe. As the pace of technology increases, birth rates are decreasing and populations age, there's got to be a shift.
00:01:16
Speaker
We're gonna talk about age in the workplace and compare the history, the status and the future expectations in the United States and Vietnam. So now let me introduce the guests.
00:01:28
Speaker
Tamika Sears is joining us from Arizona in the United States. She's known to many as the corporate fixer. I love that title. Tamika is a powerhouse in the world of human resources and executive coaching with over 20 years of experience of transforming leaders across Fortune 500 companies and grassroots organizations alike.
00:01:49
Speaker
She operates Sears Consulting based on experience that she's gained at Fortune 500 companies like Raytheon and Gannett, among others. Her mission, to help people lead with authenticity, empathy, and innovation.
00:02:05
Speaker
She's guided teams through mergers, strategic shifts, and leadership development programs that don't just check boxes, but they actually change the culture. She's a proud mom, a dog lover, and maybe we'll even see or hear from Duke at some point, and a fierce advocate for inclusive workplaces.
00:02:24
Speaker
And i have to say, she's the author of a provocatively titled book called How to Tell if You're an Asshole Boss. And I do want to point out, I have probably the only copy in Thailand.
00:02:38
Speaker
and check I read the book. I read the book and I know several people that I would have given it to over the course of my career. And I might have to do that retroactively.
Ageism in the Workplace Across Cultures
00:02:51
Speaker
So now swinging many time zones ahead and joining us from Vietnam is Kelvin Nguyen, as he is known in English. A dynamic force in Vietnam's world of executive search and human capital strategy, he's a talent acquisition expert.
00:03:08
Speaker
He spent over a decade helping companies navigate the complexities of talent acquisition, leadership development, and organizational transformation in one of Asia's fastest evolving markets.
00:03:20
Speaker
His work bridges global best practices with deep local insight in Vietnam, making him a go-to advisor for multinational firms and Vietnamese enterprises alike.
00:03:33
Speaker
He's garnered that vast experience with Vingroup, which is Vietnam's largest private company with over 50,000 employees. And in full transparency, I have previously worked at Vingroup's electric vehicle division, VinFast, where I actually met Kelvin.
00:03:49
Speaker
Kelvin is a co-founder at Faryon, a premier lifestyle management service that helps high-performing individuals and executives reclaim their time and enhance their day-to-day lives.
00:04:02
Speaker
At Faryon, Kelvin brings his ah HR insights into a new business idea, supporting is busy professionals, not only in their work, but in their overall wellbeing, productivity, and fulfillment.
00:04:15
Speaker
This holistic approach gives them a unique vantage point, for example, on today's topic of ageism, as well as work-life balance and the evolving needs of multi-generational workforces.
00:04:27
Speaker
So Tamika, Kelvin, welcome to the Autoethnographer. It's great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you, John. It's great to be here.
00:04:36
Speaker
I especially appreciate the fact that we've pulled you together over, I think it's a 14 hour time zone difference. Yeah. from ah yeah Even the arrangement is like, very difficult.
00:04:49
Speaker
Great. So let's let's dive right in. um i think let's set the stage with the first question, which is, and I'll start with you, Tamika, from a US perspective, how would you define ageism in the context of America's workforce?
00:05:06
Speaker
So ageism, you know, it's it's when people are conscious and discriminated against someone based on their age. um Typically, you think of this as older people.
00:05:20
Speaker
But there have been some states recently that have passed laws that say that you are committing ageism, you know, criminally, legally, if you treating someone differently because of their age, if they are 18 plus.
00:05:36
Speaker
which I thought was really interesting because and when you when you think of ageism, mean you don't think of somebody um discriminating against or being prejudiced against like you know the the young people.
00:05:49
Speaker
But there does come in that like when the millennials entered the workforce, they people are like, oh these young whippersnappers. So it's I can ah can see it.
00:06:00
Speaker
um But I definitely do think that if in the workplace, it is... more hurtful and harmful to the older generations.
00:06:12
Speaker
Okay, and I think that's probably how how many people envision ageism, you know, when they hear the word.
Legislation and Challenges Against Ageism
00:06:19
Speaker
How about you, Kelvin in in Vietnam? What, what, how do you think that ageism would be defined in the context of of Vietnam's workforce?
00:06:28
Speaker
So, ah yeah, based on the culture, I think like Vietnam and the US is kind of different in cultures. For Vietnamese, edges they represent for experience.
00:06:40
Speaker
So basically before, in like 10 or 20 years before, like people with age mean that they have experience in the workforce and they are appreciated by ah most of the companies.
00:06:55
Speaker
But you know, with the advancement of technologies and AI, things changing like dramatically in the last five years and like in the last two years, it's like totally changed.
00:07:08
Speaker
Because like now people with, you know, technology skills and like they can use AI, and the young people, they have much more advantage. So even people with experience, they can be replaced by young people with, you know, like the suitable skills for for the organizations.
00:07:28
Speaker
Because for most of the companies and organizations, efficiency is like the most important thing they're looking for in this very, you know, challenging world nowadays.
00:07:39
Speaker
So yeah, even with the culture that like appreciate the age, the experience, It cannot avoid the fact that many professionals with experience now are being replaced by the young people with technology skills.
00:07:59
Speaker
and And how about in the United States, Tamika? Is that something ah that's similar or or is is it ah a more long-term issue? That's been while. Yeah, it's that's been happening for a while. I feel like anytime there's any sort of advancing technology,
00:08:14
Speaker
um It's viewed as the older you are, the less likely you are to know that. And so the less likely you are to be hired. but Which I guess it makes sense. I mean, it's it's always plays into these stereotypes, right? It's not necessarily looking into whether someone actually knows something, but if they fit into some somebody's perceived stereotype.
00:08:35
Speaker
Right. So you mentioned to me a few moments ago about legislation to protect American workers, but how effective is that really? Does it really help in curbing workplace ageism?
00:08:47
Speaker
No, um I think like many of the other isms, there's a lot that you have to do to prove that that is the reason why. Thankfully, there are some employers that say stupid things like, you know, why don't you just retire? And then two weeks later,
00:09:04
Speaker
like they They fire the person. So that that's kind of blatant. um But outside of that, it can be really difficult to prove that that was the reason why you were terminated. You know, with it in most states, you can be terminated for any reason except an illegal one.
00:09:18
Speaker
And so they just find one that's not illegal.
00:09:23
Speaker
and And then in follow-up to that, um that's when people are already in the company and and being protected. But what about like tech-centric and industries? you know How does age influence the the hiring or the retention policies there?
00:09:37
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Given that tech is developing so quickly. Looking at like the age that you but you graduated from college, that's a a big thing. And people will just kind of,
00:09:51
Speaker
If it's a 19, they don't care, right? Like you're you're tossed out. And so that is one thing that I i do kind of recommend to people is leave leave those dates off to give yourself a little bit of a better chance to get the interview.
00:10:08
Speaker
But also when you have a ah full resume and you've been working for, you know, 20, 30 years, thirty years You know, your your resume starts with the things you did in and in the 1900s, as they say now.
00:10:22
Speaker
ah So automatically people are like, oh, thats that's an old guy. Do we really want him? so doesn't it So sometimes it doesn't matter. Like your most recent experience could be you are like doing the most up-to-date technical work, but you're just kind of disregarded because of what you what it looks like you did and what it looks like your age is.
Cultural Perspectives on Age and Efficiency
00:10:46
Speaker
Right now that <unk> I've experienced that personally seeing seeing companies that have have made you know IT t department shifts um purely based on age.
00:10:58
Speaker
So Kelvin, looking back at Vietnam, you you talked to a little bit about the traditional values about elder respect. um How does that shape the corporate dynamics today? you You said that it's really changed over the last two years.
00:11:13
Speaker
So there must be some conflict between traditional values and what's happening now with respect to the hiring of you know tech workers specifically. Yep.
00:11:24
Speaker
Alright, so I think there are some reasons for change in like recent years. Firstly, you know that Vietnam not now like become more like more and more like a hub for international firms to invest in and to play, you know, move their headquarters and ah factories here to Vietnam.
00:11:44
Speaker
So basically, the culture is also influenced by, you know, like the overseas factors. And secondly, the world's changing so quickly, so all the companies and organizers organizations have to be adept with the like change in the world.
00:12:01
Speaker
And they have to put their efficiencies in the first priority of, you know, like... organizational strategy. So with that, I think that like, of course, I think like the government and also company still try to protect the labor, like the worker, the laborers, ah and people working for them. But like when they have to push efficiency at first, they have to like consider the factors like age, like, you know, the right skills, the suitable skills,
00:12:32
Speaker
And at the end of the day, um the ability to like bring the result to the organizations to meet their KPI and the expectation for their stakeholders and for like the investors.
00:12:49
Speaker
So of course, there will be change and it cannot be avoided. Even with a country with a like a very long history of appreciating the Asian people.
00:13:03
Speaker
so So what place is there for older workers? what What place do they tend to occupy in Vietnamese companies? Actually, there will be still like a lot of you know older workers.
00:13:17
Speaker
They have positions, senior positions at the companies in Vietnam. But mostly it's state-owned company or like local company where relationships play a very important role in in in working the environment.
00:13:35
Speaker
But for your younger companies, for startups, for tech startups, and for like ah international companies, and also Vietnamese companies that looking for international you know expansion, ah it's totally different because at the end of the day, recent results pick it all.
00:13:53
Speaker
And you know the importance of AI and you know tech skills now in in in making results happen. Before, you can like, based on your experience, based on like your relationship with like, you know, internal and external stakeholders ah to bring results to the companies.
00:14:13
Speaker
But now, you know, you have to combine a lot of skills, including AI, including tech, in order to make it quick. So I think one of the key words here is it's about speed.
00:14:24
Speaker
before some tasks can be done for like two or three weeks. But now with the support of AI, with the support of you know like technologies, it can be done in three days.
00:14:35
Speaker
And if like a senior worker, a senior professional, they are not like quick enough to equip themselves with, you know, technology skills, with AI skills, of course, they can, they will be replaced.
00:14:50
Speaker
And it's like a mega chance over the world. And i I don't think it's going to avoided in any nation, any culture. And the same for Vietnam. No, thank you very much for the for the the insights. It's not necessarily what what someone would expect, um but but clearly the world is changing.
00:15:07
Speaker
um I want to move on a little bit to to corporate culture and HR practices in general. um Tamika, how do you think ageism
Generational Differences and Adaptability
00:15:18
Speaker
appears, for example, in day-to-day ah HR decisions, like in recruitment or promotion or training from a US perspective?
00:15:25
Speaker
Oh, gosh. I mean, there's there. I've been in conversations where people will say, ah do we really want to promote John? He's only going to be here for another three or four years. Right.
00:15:37
Speaker
And that's some of the things I'm like, but if he's the guy, he's the guy like get three or four good years out of him and help him train the next person. um in hiring again, it's, you know, Kelvin talked about things getting done fast.
00:15:52
Speaker
And I think that there is just this overall thought and picture that you don't think of the person, you know, with gray hair getting something done fast.
00:16:03
Speaker
And I think that that's just the, the total prejudice that just colors a lot of these decisions is just the assumption that the person's not going to be able to learn the technology.
00:16:13
Speaker
They're not going to be able to do it as fast. They're not going to be a efficient. um Like I do feel like they expect someone who is, you know, over 40 to show up with a notebook and a pen.
00:16:25
Speaker
and not know how to use a computer. Like, and that's just not really the case. I will raise my hand and say that I went 100% paperless in 2015. So I have a decade of of no more paper, no more pen.
00:16:39
Speaker
In fact, my handwriting has suffered for it. Same here. Yes. um How about for you on your side, Kelvin? how do you see ageism go, you know, ah make its way into ah HR decisions on a daily basis? like Like recruitment where you're an expert or promotion or training?
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, I read a story on LinkedIn yesterday, LinkedIn of like a Vietnamese professional. And he complained that, Before, some months before, people were worrying about like when they get over 45 years old, it's very difficult for them to get a job.
00:17:24
Speaker
But now it's become 35, not 45 anymore. So it's changing like very quickly.
00:17:33
Speaker
And you know that, as I said before, It's not about the age, it's about the adaptability and the ability to learn things quickly. I'm in my 35 years old, you know, like area, area now.
00:17:50
Speaker
And I totally, you know, understand that. It's not just about tech in marketing field, you know, like the young people now, they have different behavior. They have different chance.
00:18:02
Speaker
they have different factors for them to like make the decision to buy things. Like before, for us, we have a lot of other you know like factors to decide to buy something.
00:18:14
Speaker
And the marketing was totally different before. But now they have, they make a very very quick decision to buy things with the, you know, development platform like TikTok or like other social platform.
00:18:29
Speaker
And then they making decisions to buy something in like three to five seconds. That like causes before, like even, you know, a week to think about that.
00:18:40
Speaker
So it's not just about that. It's about the mindset, the behavior, The way thinking about the world is totally different now. And even people in their 30s, if they are not adapt quickly, if they are not having the ability to learn things quickly, to adapt themselves quickly in the very quickly trending world, they're gonna be, you know, like in a very dangerous position.
00:19:10
Speaker
Before, people like us, we watched the movie for one and a half hour, two hours, and we enjoyed it. Nowadays, young people, they were they they enjoy the clip, for they enjoy the video for 30 seconds.
00:19:24
Speaker
So the world's changing from the mindset, and the mindset is changing from the platform.
00:19:31
Speaker
And of course, it affects the age of the professionals that are working around the world and also in Vietnam.
00:19:42
Speaker
That's a fantastic observation, link linking the development of platforms with the consumer and and even um generational behavior. I really like that.
00:19:53
Speaker
um Just a very quick question and follow up, Tamika, stereotypes, we mentioned the word earlier. um What pops to mind really quickly when it comes to a stereotype that that you or your team have encountered?
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah, so it's the the the gray hair. so I dye my hair. Like, I'm like, if there's any gray, like, get it out of here, right? Because i I fully understand that people see gray hair and they're immediately like, this woman has no idea what she's talking about. She's in the dinosaur age, right? So it's, stereotypes are so prevalent and people just, they will make up their minds immediately.
00:20:38
Speaker
you know, I i i got Botox. a few months ago, right? Because it's like, i'm like, oh man, I'm starting to really show my age here. Um, and it's funny because I don't say how many actual years of experience I have because it will make me sound too old.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah. Which is so perverse. I mean, that's yeah yeah perverse in a way. Yeah. And people have said like, oh, I don't care that you have 30 years of experience. It's what you're doing now that matters. Right.
00:21:09
Speaker
And what about you, Kelvin? um Stereotype, what what pops up quickly in your mind? what What would be a stereotype and in Vietnam with regards to ageism?
00:21:22
Speaker
In Vietnam, one of the key words that most of the HR professionals focus on right now is the Gen Z, Generation Z. Because their behavior, even the language they use,
00:21:38
Speaker
And the mindset about workplace is totally different. I think that for people even in 30s or 40s, in like generation, millennials or before, the working behavior is totally different because we are more patient.
00:21:56
Speaker
we so We spend more time at work and we like move the like the letters in a very patient manner. But now for the like young people, they're looking for different values when they're looking for work, when they're looking for the right place to work for them.
00:22:16
Speaker
They're looking for purpose. They're looking for reputation. They're looking for the quick way, the soft way for them to show themselves to the world.
00:22:31
Speaker
And in order to do that, I think that they're looking for road hacking ways of working. and And in order to do some road hacking things, they have to apply technologies, they have to apply ah the new mindset in the way that they work.
00:22:51
Speaker
And you know, for senior professionals to manage the young generation is also totally different and it's very difficult if they are not adapt well with the new you know like ah behavior of of a younger professionals now.
00:23:08
Speaker
Young professionals, they can leave a company just because they don't have you know ah a good place in the office for them to like have peaceful in their mind. ah I mean that they love themselves more and they're looking for like the work-life balance definition is totally different now for them as well.
00:23:34
Speaker
Before, we're just looking for, you know, like if we have the weekend for the family, but now they have time for themselves. They should have time for themselves during the day, even at work.
00:23:46
Speaker
So I think the line between work and life for young professionals nowadays is not as clear as before.
Reskilling and Opportunities for Older Workers
00:23:55
Speaker
That's why many companies have to design their office, you know, that place for them to you know can enjoy themselves as well at work.
00:24:05
Speaker
And the way that the managers, the senior people behave with younger professionals have to be like also adept. Because they can leave the company now just because a saying of their managers.
00:24:21
Speaker
it If it touches their ego. And because they have like many other opportunities. So sometimes I have to be like brother. Sometimes I have to be like father to my steps.
00:24:37
Speaker
To understand what they need. To understand like what they feel like. to understand, i even have to learn their language in order to like to understand them and to talk to them, to communicate to them.
00:24:50
Speaker
And i think in in any generation, in any any period of time, the communication is very important in any workplace. And it's also decided it's a it's a vital factor that decides the sustainability and also like the efficiency of the company.
00:25:06
Speaker
And for senior professionals that still working, that still in the leadership position, I think they have to like like like like focus on you know adapting quickly with the younger generation. No, I think absolutely. I think you're you're you're on target there.
00:25:22
Speaker
Tamika, following up on that, you know in the US with older workers, do they even get opportunities for reskilling or leadership development? mean, Kelvin talked a lot just now about they have to adapt even to work with the younger generation.
00:25:37
Speaker
what What do you see in terms of these opportunities for them? I don't see them. um I think that i think that Kind of similar.
00:25:48
Speaker
People are very focused on what are we going to do for Gen Z? Like how are we going to make Gen Z comfortable? What are we going to do to get gen Gen Z, you know, in here and learn the communication skills and learn this?
00:26:00
Speaker
But I don't think there is anywhere near the investment and workers who are mid-career or or senior at all. um you You just don't see that as much. It really is focused on um the the emerging leaders, developing leaders,
00:26:17
Speaker
And I don't know if that's because they think that the others are doing just great, which, you know, they're not.
Balancing Skills and Experiences in Companies
00:26:23
Speaker
um But there is such a focus on i'm Gen Z. But I also think they're focusing on some of the wrong things.
00:26:31
Speaker
Like Kelvin talked about how we' how they're being treated and that they want to be treated differently than some of the other workers. And I read something in article that there are more like Gen Z professionals, like people at work,
00:26:46
Speaker
living at home with their parents now than there ever were like younger workers living at home. And so that's part of it is like, when you are younger, you're living at home, your bills are paid for.
00:27:00
Speaker
if you can start an Instagram channel and make $2,000 a month, that's enough of you to live off of when you're with your parents. So if you go to work and your boss is new to you,
00:27:13
Speaker
you're not going to stay. And I try to get some leaders to understand that with the younger generation, like you have to be kind, right? And it's not the, well, I went through it, so they have to they have to go through it.
00:27:26
Speaker
um But I do think that we're also paving the way for madness because if we continue to treat the younger generation as we do, 10 years, when they're the ones making the decisions, we are double screwed.
00:27:43
Speaker
I was actually going to ask about implications, but I think you expressed that one quite clearly. what What about on your side, Kelvin, in Vietnam? um Implications of for companies that don't address or deal with the ah topic of age diversity.
00:28:01
Speaker
do Do you see there to be ah an issue there in Vietnam? Yeah, I think that like most of the companies in Vietnam that I know, aware of, you know, like the difference, the differentiation between age in the workplace.
00:28:17
Speaker
So they have like HR strategy to deal with that. And ah to build the culture, to build the company yeah image, to build the like employment branding kind of things to attract the right talents for them is very important like strategy that most of the company are aware of.
00:28:39
Speaker
At the end of the day, i think that it's not about age, it's about the combination of the skills. um So ah most of the company I know, even my my own companies or you know like the company I'm working for, is still like the combination and between experience, skills and the new mindset.
00:28:58
Speaker
And as a leader of the company, they have to combine very well or between those factors. If in a company and they are they are like all young people and they they're using a new mindset to do things, technologies to do things, but if they have no experience, it's still no going nowhere. way vice versa.
00:29:17
Speaker
If a company having, you know, experience and they're having like yeah the old way of working, that working well before, but but like the new generation of consumers going into the market and if they don't have like younger talents,
00:29:34
Speaker
they're gonna go in doubt. So I think for the leaders of the company, it also it's also, it's like, you know, like, purchase. They have to combine very well but between the different factors to make, like, to guide the company going ahead.
00:29:49
Speaker
And edge is one of the like most important factors they have to, you know, like, doing the purchase in their companies. So and on your side, from the Vietnamese perspective, you're you're saying that there are benefits to having age inclusive teams and and they perform differently. How do you see that in the U.S., Tamika?
00:30:11
Speaker
do Do you feel that there is a difference of performance? Oh, absolutely. Because the older generation doesn't necessarily know what speaks to that younger generation.
00:30:23
Speaker
But the younger generation sometimes doesn't have the experience to actually get the the work done. um I don't know if he watched the the Netflix documentary on the Titan, the submersible that imploded.
00:30:38
Speaker
have not. One of the biggest problems there was you had someone who wanted you know adoration, so they hired a bunch of young people to adore them and and you know try to do the work, and then got rid of the older people, the more experienced people,
00:30:55
Speaker
that could point out that there were problems and and that things weren't weren't going to work. And so with that, there was like literally a complete and utter fatality disaster.
00:31:06
Speaker
So it it can be that bad, but you do definitely do need the fresh ideas, but also need that kind of guiding hand to say, you know, if this, then this, because sometimes the the younger yeah where people don't know the if then.
00:31:24
Speaker
Right. So um I think in follow-up to that, and I think I know the answer to this already, but I'll ask it anyway. um what What plays a greater role in American HR policy regarding age? Is it the cultural consideration or is it really just the the legal risk and the exposure?
00:31:44
Speaker
i It's the legal risk and exposure. I think that if people just, I think that if there were no laws and people could do whatever they wanted to do, most people over 40 wouldn't have a job. That's that's a pretty strong statement.
00:32:01
Speaker
But I would say what what I hear seems to to bear that out. it's Especially now, it's been really, with the recent job market, like it's been and fairly awful for people that I know that are, i mean, kind of like Kelvin said, really, it's like 35 the new
00:32:24
Speaker
There's been a shift. It's been really, really hard for some people with a really good experience to get roles. Shifting over to to Vietnam for people who are in the workforce, um you know I understand that in ah pension coverage is is fairly limited in Vietnam. It's still a growing ah economy. it's it's It's growing quickly, but it's not there yet.
00:32:49
Speaker
um how How do companies navigate with older employees who want to stay in the workforce and continue working, who cannot leave yet because of those, let's say, in insufficient pension coverages?
00:33:05
Speaker
I think it depends on the policy of each company. International companies, they have different policy. Big local company, they have different policy, and small local company, they have different policies.
00:33:19
Speaker
So it totally depends on the company that have like the policy for for senior workers. um and And you are right, the pension scheme in Vietnam is not at that level to protect the senior professionals in Vietnam.
00:33:39
Speaker
But there are more opportunities for people in Vietnam if they are out of the workforce to start up than the US, I think. Because it's a developing country, i there are still a lot of opportunities for people to start up their own business.
00:33:57
Speaker
There are a a lot of play problems here to be solved. A lot of new demands from the consumers.
Future Workforce Demographics and Challenges
00:34:05
Speaker
And like to start a company here, you know,
00:34:09
Speaker
I have to say that like like like cheaper labor is easier. So many of the senior professionals that I know after they getting out of professional life, they start up themselves or they can be consultants or they can be trainer for the companies.
00:34:29
Speaker
So it's also a way out for for for the senior professionals. in a country like Vietnam after they they are not like having opportunity to find a new job. That makes a lot of sense.
00:34:42
Speaker
And I think it sounds like a natural progression when you take your experience that you've gained over the years and you reflect that back to the to the younger generation. So looking ahead now a little bit into the into the future, um let me start with you, Tamika.
00:34:58
Speaker
So what does an ideal age diverse workforce even look like in your national context? Yeah, I think it looks like...
00:35:08
Speaker
um people that are in the workforce, like from 18 to 70, working on teams and respecting each other and getting to know each other and knowing that there are going to be differences and and meeting people where they are.
00:35:23
Speaker
um Because we we don't have the opportunities as older workers to just go start our own thing as easily. When you're an older worker, that's when you really need that health insurance. think did So you get your health insurance through your job. you can't just you know, leave that. And so we do need to find a way where everyone can be collaborative, where everyone can say, um i respect your opinion, right?
00:35:50
Speaker
And not just kind of be at each other and not just see from both sides. Like there's just that a really harsh environment right now where if you disagree with someone, it's like, might as well just like split their throat. Like we'll never agree.
00:36:08
Speaker
Right. And there needs to be a lot more conflict resolution, I think, in the workplace right now so that people can meet in the middle.
00:36:17
Speaker
Right. And there does seem to be a lot a lot of um polarity and polarization. i would have to say I agree. What about you, Kelvin? um From a Vietnamese perspective, what does an ideal age diverse workforce look like there? are
00:36:35
Speaker
the ideal... age-diverse workforce? Yeah, it's the very interesting question and it's hard to, like, ah with my, you know, like, with what I know, it's hard for me to answer those questions.
00:36:51
Speaker
But as I said before, you know, Vietnam has younger, like, workforce generations compared to most of the economies in the world. And I think it's fortunate for for a country like Vietnam to have that kind of younger workforce.
00:37:06
Speaker
So because we have abundant young workforce, we also have like older generation. Of course, the young workforce is not one of the advantages of Vietnam like in the near future, just like other countries.
00:37:21
Speaker
Because of that, the leaders of the companies and organizations in Vietnam have the like advantage to combine workforce in their organizations.
00:37:32
Speaker
They can combine like young workforce with senior workforce. And the thing is still good here, I think, in at least the next five five to ten years, that the age gap is not a big deal for you know the leaders of the companies in Vietnam because we still have abundant younger workforce.
00:37:58
Speaker
But in the next 10 years, with the birth rate of Vietnam like becoming decline in recent years, it's going to be a big deal um in the future. That's why the government now have to focus on you know increasing the birth rate.
00:38:13
Speaker
ah They don't want Vietnam to become the next Korea. They don't want Vietnam to become the next Japan. So from a demographic point of view, the birth rate also plays an important factor and Vietnam is still not you now on the golden edge of workforce with the like you know like the so table ah the suitable ratio between young and the old generation in the workforce.
00:38:47
Speaker
It's interesting that you bring that up. um I actually, because I was curious, I looked up the age profile of the population between the United States and Vietnam. And I looked at the percent of the population in each of the 10 years, right? From 20 to 30, 30 to 40, et cetera.
00:39:04
Speaker
And it's extremely similar, extremely similar. I was actually quite surprised um how similar they are ah in terms of the the age profile. But you mentioned something with the birth rates and and and also the aging of the population.
00:39:19
Speaker
So this is my last question. So Tamika, and maybe this is, ah you know, I don't know if it's all doom and gloom, but the question is, you know do you see this becoming more of ah pronounced issue or or less prevalent in the U.S. over the next decade, and given the the rapid rise of technology?
00:39:40
Speaker
with the rapid rise of technology, with the number of people that are older in the workforce versus younger, and the amount of people now who are like, babies, I'm not doing that.
00:39:54
Speaker
I think we we might have some problems here soon. um Because it's, unless AI is the big, you know, equalizer and those roles aren't going to be needed,
00:40:08
Speaker
um there aren't going to be enough people to fill those entry-level roles because i mean our our birth rates are going down. And not just the birth rates going down, but people entering the workforce is going down as well because of the new economy, right the gig economy, the influencer economy, there aren't as many people going into the the ah regular workforce as it was before.
00:40:36
Speaker
No, that's a great ah observation. And those happen to be in in that gig economy are probably more technically skilled because their whole, you know, gig job is tech based.
00:40:48
Speaker
How do you see it, Kelvin, over the next decade or so? Do you see ah improvement or or, you know, ageism becoming more of an issue in Vietnam?
00:41:01
Speaker
ah Frankly speaking, I have to say it's going to be like, ah ah big deal in Vietnam in the next 10 years. As I mentioned, firstly, the birth rate is becoming decline in in recent years.
00:41:20
Speaker
And secondly, i think for younger generation, the mindset between, you know, I have to say like masculine and feminine is totally different. As Tamika mentioned, now with technologies, with the influence of social media, it's more equal between men and women.
00:41:41
Speaker
And with that, of course, the birth rate have to be you know like affected. Because women, they are now stronger.
00:41:52
Speaker
and you know like they are equal to men, right? So in a family, there should be someone taking care of the family. And if, like, with that equality, how can they have the behavior, how how can they have the mindset to bring a child to the world?
00:42:11
Speaker
So I think even with the effort of of the government, of the, like, policy makers, but with the mindset, I think that mindset is, like, spreading globally.
00:42:22
Speaker
ah The younger younger generation now, they can do nothing to avoid it. And the world gonna be older. Each nation gonna be older.
00:42:34
Speaker
And we have to accept the fact that it's gonna be like a big deal in any economies, including Vietnam, including US, including rich country, including, you know, developing countries. And we we cannot avoid that.
00:42:49
Speaker
And let's see you what next with the development of AI and technologies. Let's see what next. I'm curious because we don't know. Maybe AI can help us to fix that. or they can totally like you know make that a big good deal for all human.
00:43:09
Speaker
Now, it sounds when I listen to both of you, you're you're coming from two different pasts in in terms of your nations, but the trajectory, the direction seems to be somewhat aligned. um as As culturally,
00:43:24
Speaker
you know, certain things take root like ah women equality working in the in the workplace or or working independently in their in their own companies. It sounds like like there's this alignment happening globally, which is which is impacting both countries.
00:43:39
Speaker
So that that's the last of my questions. What I wanted to do is maybe give each of you a ah moment to kind of give your final word, um you know, summarize from from your perspective.
00:43:50
Speaker
And I think ill I'll start with you, Tamika. So I think you're in summary, treat people right, latter no matter what color the hair is. but but i vote I vote for that one personally. yeah And how about the final word from you, Kelvin?
00:44:11
Speaker
I think like for any generation nowadays, the most important thing is look inside yourself, not look outside. Because anything comes...
00:44:22
Speaker
If you are strong enough inside, you can get getting through. For the older generation and for the younger generation, if they look inside themselves enough, they even find their way.
00:44:36
Speaker
And that's my final words for, you know, like the book, postcard today.
Closing and Audience Engagement
00:44:42
Speaker
And I think that's a universal, a universal message for for everybody. it doesn't matter which time zone they have until they...
00:44:50
Speaker
Well, I think with that, we're reaching the end of the of the episode. um I wanted to thank both of you for your time. ah One of you in the morning, one of you in the evening. It's it's it's an experiment the first time on this podcast to to have a three-way conversation, especially across the globe like this.
00:45:08
Speaker
But thank thank you for joining. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much, Joe. so And with that, I'd like to thank the listeners for joining us today.
00:45:20
Speaker
And until next week, keep on driving.
00:45:24
Speaker
Thank you for joining us on today's journey. Please remember to like and subscribe to The Auto Ethnographer and leave us a rating or comment. For more information, visit our website at auto-ethnographer.com.
00:45:36
Speaker
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