Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of Gender in Focus. I'm Elle, I'm here with Kai. How's it going? Hello, I'm doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing so well. I'm in actually quite a funny mood today, like i feel silly. Okay. It might come through.
Speaker: Yeah, sorry for whatever is about to happen. ah Sorry that you're going to have fun. Yeah, sorry. And even if you're not, I'm dragging you with me. For some reason, conversations about trans people so often have a habit of turning into the direction of surgery. Today, we're going to be talking about why surgery becomes...
Speaker: such a focus in conversations about trans people and what this curiosity can look like, especially at work, which can get a little bit dicey. So to start us off, Kai, um could you go into what we're actually talking about when we're talking about balancing kind of privacy and openness around surgeries at work?
Speaker: Yeah, this is a good one to anchor in because we might be looking at one thing, but it actually will unpack a lot of different things. But it's helpful to anchor in one thing because this one's a big one and it comes up so much. Yes, I can't tell you. I mean, i don't get any more now that I work at or that I'm with Transfocus. dealing with these issues directly.
Speaker: But certainly, you know, when I first came out, um I got a lot of questions, even within a workplace context, about my body.
Speaker: Like, if we're talking about surgeries, we are talking about bodies. And it's not just bodies, it's the more private aspects of body, right? Right, yeah. And the common reframe, just to make it really concrete for folks who either haven't experienced it themselves or haven't heard of it, is the common question is, drum roll,
Speaker: ah Have you had ah the surgery? And I paused briefly on the the, because we'll unpack that a little bit later on. But there's something to be said about that part. But yeah, it's the common thing. People want to know what's happening. And, you know,
Speaker: what trans people are doing and what's you know who are they and they're very inquisitive but the surgery one is kind of top of the list among many others so yeah why why why is that why do conversations about trans and non-binary people always seem to go in that direction or very often end up focusing on surgery in the first place Yeah, I was a bit taken aback, especially in the workplace. I thought i can imagine people would have pause, right?
Speaker: But i think what happens, and of course, we would need to ask cis people directly, you know, what's kind of happening behind the scenes. Yeah, exactly. ah Maybe we'll get somebody on who can kind of unpack that.
Speaker: I think what happens or what I kind observed from the outside, whenever somebody asked me that question is they're very excited to talk about a trans to a trans person, a real live in the flesh holy crap, here he is, right? like And so I think it's coming from a good place of like enthusiasm and like finally I have all of these built up questions that I finally get to place somewhere, right? And potentially even get answered.
Speaker: And so I think that enthusiasm kind of takes them away from thinking about the person and what they're feeling and experiencing with this inquiry process.
Speaker: A second part to it is that people are very focused on trans bodies because for many cis people, their gender is deeply interwoven with their bodies. In fact, for many, gender equals body, right?
Speaker: End of story, right? And so a natural starting point for them is the the body of a trans person. like you should or you why haven't you? Or, you know, like kind of almost a bit of an anxiety around, okay, I know you're trans, but like, we got to make it fit, right?
Speaker: So, you know, let's inquire to see what's happening here. And I don't think people intend for that, but that's certainly how it comes across on the ah receiving end of that ah that type of question.
Speaker: For sure. I want to just sort of reverse a second because you brought up ah at the beginning, sort of, you mentioned about the surgery and the emphasis on the. And I i would love for you to go into the assumptions that are sort of hiding beneath that, the surgery.
Speaker: Yeah, there's so much packed into that question. i don't think people who are asking it may not entirely realize And it's it's not like they're a bad person for asking or and there's something wrong, right? ah We're simply wanting to show and highlight what is actually baked in to that question. So and I don't want to kind of blame or shame people, but there is a lot there that on the surface is not apparent at first glance. So what's what are the things? um
Speaker: The first thing that it it says is that, you know, the assumption that people kind of ought to have surgery. um yeah and And not everybody undergoes gender affirming care, including surgeries. In fact, I would say the majority don't.
Speaker: And that does surprise people. Because the assumption being that trans people want to be more like cis people and be aligned, right? Yeah. That's not always the case. So it's important not to presume that somebody pat is wanting to have surgery or is going to, or maybe they want it, but they can't access it. Right. And that's painful to know that and not be able through cost or some other reason not be able to access.
Speaker: The part that I paused with the is because it's singular, the surgery, one surgery. And, you know, maybe some trans people would love that to be one surgery, but it is, in fact, many different surgeries.
Speaker: upper and lower, stuff related to the the vocal cords, um related to the face, on and on, really. There's so many different options. And of course, not everybody avails themselves if they want surgery to everything.
Speaker: So everybody is kind of picking and choosing the ones that are right for them. And also, ah it it kind of gets to this um that we kind of think of when we think of trans people is often you know really related to their body, as I was saying at the beginning, but not just to their body, but kind of if i could go it a layer deeper it's actually to their genitals right and that being kind of the epicenter i'm putting in heavy air quotes um of of one's identity uh for from the perspective of cis people and that is not how most trans people certainly we may have feelings and thoughts and experiences of of that part of our body but that's not
Speaker: the center of our identity. There's so much more to us. I would say for everyone, but. For sure. Yeah. See, when you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous. that that The idea that your very identity is tied to whatever genital someone has. And yet that is so often how it's perceived. And when you lay it out like that, I would imagine most people would go, oh, right.
Speaker: Of course not. but when But that is the focus for so many people. That's like the laser focuses on that as soon as somebody comes as trans. want to really get into all of that and really, it's coming from a place of wanting to understand, but yeah it's like how that understanding is kind of brought about that is ah feels off to many trans and non-binary folks. Yeah. Because usually when people are coming out they're very excited about so many different things you know being able to be themselves you know being properly addressed and you know it's certainly changing bodies for some is at play and that is exciting right it's not to downplay that because that is important um but if that's the only thing it's like hey wait a second there's so much more right
Speaker: I think that's so ah like become so apparent when speaking to trans people about what brings them that gender euphoria or that gender joy is of course for for some or for many bodies bodies are a part of that but when I've had conversations at least it's always been or predominantly been this kind of smaller things like getting someone's someone getting their first haircut where they cut their hair short was like a huge thing and bodies are of course part of it but like it's not it's not the thing it's not the main thing part of it.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's why having this kind of question be the only thing misses all of the richness. Yeah.
Speaker: um People are generally asking that for a lot of reasons. And you've talked about how it's just trying to make sense of things. And often, yeah like you said at the beginning, where it's like exciting because you suddenly got this trans person in front of you and maybe you've never knowingly met a trans person before. So now you've got this live podcast.
Speaker: person to answer all my questions. And so a lot of it is just curiosity, right? People are so curious about this and Bodies comes into that for the reasons that you've listed. But I wanted to ask about the difference between um asking a question because you're wanting to support someone and asking question because you're super curious and why that feels different to be on the receiving end of that too.
Speaker: Yeah, that's such an important thing because ah we we may not be aware of why we're asking and that can then kind of impact how that person receives the question. yeah But if you're able to ask a question that is oriented towards support rather than fulfilling one's curiosity, that's a totally different ball game, right? One where, especially if you're trying to determine if some sort of support is needed, uh,
Speaker: that um is oriented on the trans and non-binary person and where they're at and their humanity and their dignity, right? Versus fulfilling one's own or centering one's own curiosity is actually more about, it can convey, even if you don't feel this way, that, you know, oh, this this odd, this oddity or this kind of outlier, right?
Speaker: thing And I want to go kind of look at it and then figure it out. Right. that just feels totally different. And I'm sure people who are cisgender on this call might be able to relate in a different way. When somebody comes from abroad, they can have a similar vibe of like, know, you're weird, i got to figure you out, and I'm going to pummel you with questions to serve my needs, right? Versus like, what does this person need? What is their experience? How can I be you know of service to them?
Speaker: you know it's ah It's a very different orientation. One can that can make a huge difference if focused on the other person. And you're also kind of baked into that is there's a bit of a reflection of like, do I need to know this?
Speaker: Will this help this person or is it just primarily for me? hey You know what I was thinking about like some like a little while ago was this came up for a friend of mine who's not trans, who's cis, who's pregnant. And when they told people that they were pregnant, the question people asked quite a lot was, are you were you trying or was it an accident?
Speaker: And when you really think about that question, it's so weird, but it came up all the time. And I think people, ah ah they're curious or they're wanting to connect or they're they're trying to figure something out, but don't realize how weird the questions are. And I think that's like such an odd thing. And trans people are kind of experiencing this on on a whole other level where you're like, I get that it's ah it's something to be interested in or something that's curious, but it's weird. It's a really weird question to ask, no? Especially at work.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, for sure at work. And i think sometimes people, because they're talking euphemistically, so they're kind of in a kind of have you had the surgery doesn't feel as weird as have you changed your genitals, you know, which is kind of what you're asking about, right? So right.
Speaker: And similar with the pregnancy, it's like, you know, was it an accident is not or were you trying is not saying have you had lots of sex in the last little bit, you know, like, People, because they can kind of code it a bit, it it buffers in it. But this is kind of at the core, especially on the receiving end of the awkwardness of like, I don't want to have to talk to you about this for some. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's such a good reframe to figure out like whether a question is appropriate or not. It's to be like, okay, get specific. What is it that you're actually asking? Yeah, yeah. really unpack it to like its base layer. um And then do you still feel comfortable asking? Right.
Speaker: Okay, it might give us some clues. I kind of want to switch into looking at it specifically about work. Because this those questions get asked outside of work as well. But yeah within work, it's such a different vibe. Like it's such a different context. And it feels very different when it's a work. And so when someone is considering um sharing information about potentially having surgery um in in their workplace, what factors might influence how much a trans person wants to disclose? Because it is such a different context.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, there's just so much at play in terms of, you know, where they're situated, how long they've been at the organization, um how relevant it is to the workplace. I mean, you know, if it's about something in the past, maybe not as relevant versus something that's about to happen and maybe people need time off. That's a practical consideration. Right.
Speaker: And yet, you know As the employer human resources or even the manager of this trans individual who's about to do surgery, you're not getting into the detail of this surgery, right, necessarily. ah It's a really about the time off that's really the key.
Speaker: thing, right? You know, do you need three weeks off? Do you need a month? Do you need, you know, two months, right? What what are the kind of nitty gritty of that? And so those are some of the things at play for a trans individual and whether or not they're wanting or needing to share about about surgeries at work.
Speaker: um Some people are more open than others. Some people are super open and happy to discuss and others are extremely private and ah not wanting, understandably, not wanting to discuss it with their their colleagues. So ah how can organizations avoid treating trans and non-binary employees as a sort of monolith or in the same way but taking into account the the different ways that people are feeling about sharing.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where it's really important to be attuned to and aligned with the trans person. So and not kind of assuming one way or another, one way ah they don't want to talk about it at all versus they want to talk about it every minute, you know, like,
Speaker: you need to really see the person in front of you to check in to be like, okay, um you know you're under you're taking kind of next steps in your journey. We want to be as supportive as possible. um Are there things that you're comfortable talking about and are there things that you're not comfortable talking about? And then ah like giving that non-divinative person the stage to clarify in their own words what they are okay with. and And, you know, some people are very, as you mentioned, very private about surgeries and certainly don't want to talk about it in the workplace. And then for others, it's like not a big deal or perhaps they're pretty excited about it. And, you know, for those who are okay with talking about it, they're
Speaker: they might want to, right? And not to be kind of stifled in that. um Obviously, for it it needs to be both ways, right? For the surgeries, you know, maybe not everybody's comfortable talking about those with folks, even if trans people do. But for those who are comfortable, it's it's okay to go into that conversation. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think it's just understanding where somebody falls along that range of different approaches to talking about surgeries or other aspects of coming out or being trans.
Speaker: Yeah. Mm hmm. If someone is finding themselves very curious about, if someone is is, there's a trans person at work and they're finding themselves pretty curious about surgery or or their transition in general, what are some questions that they can ask themselves before saying anything? That feels like a really patronizing question, but sometimes I think a lot of this is not even thought about at all. Like the question will just come out of their mouth. so And I've definitely, as an ADHDer, impulsivity is a problem. And so information can be shared en masse without thinking and questions can be asked en masse without thinking. So I get it. yeah yeah It's hard sometimes when people are curious.
Speaker: Oh, for sure. And I think to some degree, it's really important, especially if it's new to people to slow down. So I think that's step number one is just to like breathe, you know, and we're going to go through this slowly so that we don't jump and, you know, um and, you know, to varying degrees of success, I'm sure. And that's OK. But I think the the other thing that folks can do is to reflect on but Ask yourself, you know, to yourself, not with others. in the it does Why do i need to know this or do I want to know this?
Speaker: And you might be surprised by the answer. It's like, I don't know enough about this and I wanna be sure and understand or you know whatever the reasons may be. um And another thing to do too is kind of, we we have this concept of turning around statements towards oneself, right? So just flipping that question to ask yourself to to ask yourself the question of like,
Speaker: you know Not have you had the surgery, because likely if you're cis, you're not having surgeries, although some do, right? um And it's just to say, you know some ask ah yourself a question about your own genitals and think about it coming from somebody else. Would you feel comfortable with that?
Speaker: Probably not, especially at work. Right. That could give you ah a hint, like, i don't feel comfortable, so probably somebody else might not, right? It's not to paint everybody with the same brush, but at least we're being a bit more cautious, right? And the last thing that I would suggest is...
Speaker: Also, if you're really wanting to know, there are so many other places to go. That's the thing. Now we have, especially on YouTube, there are so many trans and non-binary folks sharing their story, talking in depth about surgery, right? Like giving you like footage from within the surgical room, right? Like detailed. You don't actually need to...
Speaker: have everyone all the questions answered by the person in front of you you can go to youtube and google that and probably get a good cross-section too of not just white able-bodied you know trans masculine folks right like you can get you know people with you know who are black who are people with disability like you can get a bit more of a range that can really highlight some of the things in common and that are distinct too so that's where i would say you're better kind of bang for your buck to go to YouTube.
Speaker: Yeah. I want to also talk about the dynamic at work when someone has been away, they've had surgery, they've gone away. For for some people, it can be like two months. It can be short, but it can be, depending on the surgery, it can be a really long time that someone's away. And so what does it look like to acknowledge that someone has been away, like when they've when they come back, to acknowledge that someone has been away without immediately turning into an interrogation about their surgeries? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: yeah, this is really important because something has happened, right? And it's not like, because one other extreme can be is just to pretend like nothing has happened, right? Right, yeah. And people, for some that might be comfortable, right? If we think about kind of the style of reception, some people just want a business as usual. They want to talk about it, think about it, whatever. And if we've checked in with them, we know that. And versus, some sort of acknowledgement, but not in a way that pinpoints it.
Speaker: So, you know, to say, hey, you've been away for six weeks, how are you feeling? And we talk about that in a general way, not specific to the surgery, not how are you feeling after having gotten top surgery, you know, or whatever, if you if you know that. I mean, sometimes people don't know that, but, and, and or,
Speaker: rather than asking, you know, what kind of surgery did you have? Does it work? You know, are you regretting it? You know, like people can be peppered with these types of things. Does it work?
Speaker: i mean So yeah, the kind of checking in to see how they're doing, and as you would with other people who are recovering, right? your Your care and concern is in their state, not the specifics of what they did, right? And I think that's a beautiful way to acknowledge it. And then that gives you indication of how much or little they want to talk about it, right? Mm-hmm. Because if they're kind of quick answer and then on to their task, that tells you something versus, you know, maybe they go into a little bit of detail, in which case there is a bit of an open door there. Not for going all in with all the questions, but just more another thoughtful question, you know, and see where it goes from there.
Speaker: Yeah. That's the thing I think a lot of people maybe forget that if if somebody does want to share, they will. Like if if they're feeling comfortable, you don't actually need to drag it out of someone. Because if you're having to do that, then there's probably not ah a willingness to discuss it.
Speaker: um So with that, I really want to touch on what you just said about in some cases, there is maybe a lack of acknowledgement and that kind of lets completely avoid talking about it at all. And what happens there when workplaces swing too far in either direction, when they're either making a huge spectacle of someone's return or someone's transition in the first place coming out or whatever it is versus acting as though nothing has happened at all.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. I'll start on the pretending nothing's happened. That is has its own harm. And I think people may not realize it because they think, oh, well, it's a private matter and it's not relevant to the workplace. And so we shouldn't even like glance in its direction. you know And that that is harmful because people are undergoing something big um if there is some sort of surgery involved and it has a net positive impact but it's still a big thing right and for there to be nothing it's like i've just done this thing at big thing and i you know
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's very strange. It's a very strange type of silence that um in some cases can feel uncomfortable or even sad or even isolating because some of the messaging that can be baked in there is, oh, this is too odd for us to to go there, right? Yeah. And, um you know, this is this is your own thing, you do you, but, like, we're not going to deal with it, right? And so that can be kind of very disconcerting.
Speaker: versus the kind of um the the really wanting to acknowledge and even celebrate and really go into it, that might work if that person is comfortable with that style of reception, right?
Speaker: Maybe they want a cake, you know, I don't know. but so and But if you've mismatched with somebody who wants to remain more private or quiet about it,
Speaker: that's, that can be jarring. Cause you're like, Holy smokes. I just want to go about my work. And suddenly there's something very personal, very private um out in the open. um And I just want to crawl under a rock, you know? So yeah it's so important. It's not just about what actions are taken, but it's like figuring out or knowing the personality of the person in front of you. And,
Speaker: And we know this about birthdays, right? Like, or maybe we should, i don't know. but like, I know among my friends, who doesn't like to have like, if I were to do a surprise birthday party for one of my friends, they would, they would break up with me, like, they'd be like, that's it Like, you don't know me. So in the similar vein, and then there's others who like, if I don't, it's like also a problem, you know, so just thinking about that analogy, hopefully helps with matching in ways that are more helpful to the individual.
Speaker: hmm. Oh my gosh, that's such a good example of the birthday party. If somebody made a surprise party for me, I'd cry. i think I'd cry and run away. Right? So would I be like, i don't, what is going on i don't want this. I i had i had a ah ah person in my life many years ago who was like, I'm going to arrange a surprise birthday party for you. Is that okay? They knew enough to check in. and then I was like, please don't. and then like
Speaker: But they had to unsurprise it. Right. Yeah, that's good that they they got a vibe of being like, something's not quite right here. I better check in. Ruined the surprise in the process. um That's funny.
Speaker: i would like to just go back to thinking about your own curiosity versus centering what that other person might need. Because you you gave you were really you explained that really well. And I can't remember what you said, but it was the way that you're...
Speaker: who is your centering in the questions that are being asked and I would really like it if you could go into that a little bit deeper. Yeah, absolutely. This kind of focused on the other, the trans or non-binary person or focused on yourself and what you need based on your curiosity. And that distinction is something that came up in like as an, I have a little bit of a story from something I was attending at the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade, there was a keynote speaker there, JQ, who had this beautiful story that was really impactful for him. He has a glass eye and he had was meeting up with somebody to to visit with him. And that person asked a very poignant question that he's never been asked before. And he's like, which side of you should I sit so you could see me?
Speaker: right? Because he's not seeing out of his glass eye, right? And so just that that consideration. So it is asking about, um you know, Jay's glass eye, but it's oriented in a way that impacts or improves his ability to be with that person. And he had enough foresight to think to ask that question, or maybe spontaneously in the moment, who knows. But um That's not coming from that. I mean, there might be some curiosity for that person, but it is to support that person.
Speaker: You know what i mean? So it is a very differently oriented question that's not just fully self-serving. It's really with that person in mind. And similar things can also be done with trans and non-binary folks where If you're asking as a way to better support them, that's a very powerful question versus you just really want to know about X, Y, and z which is generally readily available on the internet nowadays. Right.
Speaker: I love that example because it's so it's it's such a perfect way to describe like we're not going to because sometimes people can be like, oh, I don't really want to acknowledge. But like you can acknowledge that that there's something to consider, but it can be from the position of um it's not just me satisfying a curiosity. I think that's so powerful. With that, then, just to end this episode, what would you want I don't know if listeners are remembering just one thing from the conversation today. what Yes. What would you want them to keep in mind when navigating privacy and openness and all of that around surgery, specifically at work?
Speaker: Yeah. It's to slow down. and pause and just figure out a way to ask questions that isn't only about satisfying our own curiosity. There are places to meet.
Speaker: So curiosity isn't a bad thing. I think sometimes we think, oh, that's bad of me to think or say that. It's not so much that it's a bad thing. It it will likely come up and But then it's just like where to place that. that makes Are you going to orient it to the person so they're responsible for it? Or are you going to take responsibility for it and direct it in different ways to to satisfy it?
Speaker: and And in that way, you don't have to ask every single thing that comes to mind, and especially for for trans people who are already navigating quite a bit of inquiry. I think that's probably missing... in many people's understanding is that it's not just that one person who asked it. It's right times a hundred, times a thousand, you know, it's just a lot.
Speaker: And so I think taking responsibility for one's own curiosity is an important aspect, but certainly not completely shying away and and pretending like nothing, you know, but it's just thoughtful in the moment, um ah aligned with the the trans or non-binary person can help you find a better way forward. Thank you so much, Kai. Thank you. That will be helpful because I'm sure that comes up a lot for trans people.
Speaker: Yes, it does. Absolutely. Well, thank you too. All right. Well, we'll see you next week. Bye for now. Cheerio.
