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Why Other People Do Wrong – Socrates Was Right! (Episode 163)
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No one chooses to be wrong. This core Stoic teaching, inherited from Socrates, shaped how ancient philosophers viewed human behavior and mistakes. In this episode, Caleb explores why the Stoics believed people only do what they think is best – even when those choices seem obviously wrong to others.
The episode tackles challenging questions: How do addictions and bad habits fit into this framework? What does this mean for personal responsibility? And most importantly, how can we use this ancient insight to better understand ourselves and others?
Read this letter
Video animation of this letter
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoic Empathy and Socratic Intellectualism
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros, and today we'll do a solo episode. I'll be reading through and discussing a letter from the Stoa Letter entitled, Stoic Empathy, the True Meaning of Socratic Intellectualism. It's a short letter. What I'll do is read through it and then ah expand on it.
Understanding Socratic Intellectualism and Stoic Empathy
00:00:30
Speaker
It's about a crucial concept, one that doesn't always come to mind when we think about Stoicism today, and also one that I think is one of the most difficult ones to keep in mind and to apply in a consistent way and to internalize in a deep way. But it's a powerful one, both in terms of how we relate to others and how we relate to ourselves.
00:01:01
Speaker
Here it is. One of the most difficult Stoic teachings for me to internalize is Socratic intellectualism. The simple idea is that no one intentionally does wrong. People do wrong out of ignorance, not evil. Epictetus summarizes it perfectly in his discourses.
00:01:24
Speaker
When then any man ascends to that which is false, be assured that he did not intend to assent to it as false, for every soul is unwillingly deprived of the truth, as Plato says. Can then a man think that a thing is useful to him and not choose it? He cannot. In other words, everyone does what they believe is best. No one desires evil for its own sake.
00:01:52
Speaker
This opens up space for empathy. Stoic empathy means understanding of the human condition. We're confused and imperfect creatures. We can't expect other people to do what we believe is right.
Actions Driven by Wisdom and Gentleness
00:02:06
Speaker
We then should sympathize with others, even those who treat us poorly. They are not happy.
00:02:13
Speaker
Like Marcus Aurelius reminding himself in Meditations 2.1, we must be prepared to meet with ignorant people. They don't know how to do good. Nonetheless, we're made to live with them.
00:02:26
Speaker
This doesn't mean we should fail to be assertive or just. Rather, it means that our actions should begin from gentleness, not anger. Other people do not deserve to be harmed because they harmed us. Instead, our immediate reaction should be one of kindness, resourcefulness, and wisdom. This is what a virtuous disposition looks like. After all, we can remember that we also do wrong because we're often mistaken too.
00:02:55
Speaker
We aren't much better than other people. We shouldn't be angry with them or ourselves. Instead, work to improve. So that's a short letter then on Socratic intellectualism. If you'd like one missive, one letter like this a week, do check out stowalletter.com.
Exploring Stoicism's Socratic Roots
00:03:20
Speaker
To go into more detail, this idea of Socratic intellectualism of course comes from Socrates. It's one way in which Stoicism is shows itself to be a Socratic philosophy. Socrates believed that people desire to do what is good.
00:03:47
Speaker
Or to state that more precisely, Socrates believed that people only desire to do what they believe is good. So as such, he denied the possibility that someone could act from weakness of will. So weakness of will, that's the idea that you've determined a certain course of action to be good or best, all things considered, but decide to do something different. You lack the motivation,
00:04:22
Speaker
In the moment, whatever it is, you choose the path that you believe is not best. Also called Acresia, which means the lack of self-power, lack of self-will. It's an instance of someone failing to master themselves, failing to rule themselves properly as weakness of will.
00:04:49
Speaker
And though, of course, the Stoics and Socrates know that situations like this can occur, ultimately, they do not see it as a matter of weakness of will. Instead, they believe what's going on is in these situations, we do what we believe is best, but for whatever reason,
00:05:17
Speaker
We look back on those actions and realize that we acted poorly or acted in a way we wish we had not.
Beliefs and Actions: Lessons from Epictetus and Medea
00:05:27
Speaker
So just to go into more detail into that, we do have a ah longer episode on weakness of will. That's episode 35.
00:05:40
Speaker
And, uh, but I, we should go into more detail here, you know, this, uh, I think it's, uh, some people find this idea intuitive, others and don't, but it's a common situation to or perhaps be.
00:05:57
Speaker
stuck in bed, be faced with an addiction and think, you know, I ought to get out of bed or I ought not take or do whatever thing I'm addicted to and and left feel as though we believe that such an action would, that staying in bed would be worse for us. Taking that substance, doing that, whatever we happen to be addicted to would be worse for us.
00:06:26
Speaker
but end up doing it nonetheless. So I think what what the Stoics say here is a better way to explain these situations is that we have two competing beliefs sometimes.
00:06:40
Speaker
So maybe you truly don't believe all things considered that a given route is best. Maybe you think, uh,
00:06:50
Speaker
It's better not to partake in my addiction because it'll have worse consequences, but that's a fairly limited belief. Uh, it's consistent with other beliefs, such as the fact that, you know, engaging my addiction will cease powerful craving. Also true. And perhaps that belief is wins a competition, as it were, and is what you think all things considered as a stronger belief.
00:07:21
Speaker
Alternatively, people also have weak beliefs. And I think one way to think about that is if you truly believe at a given moment that it would be imprudent or rational for you to do something, but when that moment arrives, the belief falls away. And I think that reveals that the belief was weak in a real sense. It didn't either didn't transform into a full belief or the scope of it again was, was limited.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I think also people just act in ways where they don't realize what they're doing. And it's maybe even less a matter of belief, but a much more matter of giving into passions, of course, passions driven by judgments. They are driven by judgments, but we're not always aware of, of the passions at play. Otherwise, other than thinking in the moments, you know, it's better for me to indulge in my passion or that's anger, desire for pleasure.
00:08:22
Speaker
Laziness. Lethargy. And um to see this, the Epictetus gives ah ah gives a nice example of this in the rest of Discourses 1.28. He talks about the mythical case of Medea. And Medea is a character who decides to kill her children because she's been betrayed by Jason. So he kills the two of their children.
00:08:52
Speaker
and ah is represented in many tellings as knowing. Well, this is how Epictetus puts it. Medea's words are, "'Tis true, I know what evil I shall do, but passion overpowers the better counsel.'"
00:09:10
Speaker
andphichetuss continues She thought that to indulge her passion and take vengeance on her husband was more profitable than to spare her children. It was so, but she was deceived. Show her plainly that she is deceived and she will not do it. But so long as you do not show it, what can she follow except that which appears to herself?
00:09:33
Speaker
Her opinion, nothing else.
Ignorance and the Search for Unconditional Good
00:09:35
Speaker
Why then are you angry with the unhappy woman that she has been bewildered about the most important things and has become a viper instead of a human creature? And why not, if it is possible, rather pity as we pity the blind and the lame, so those who are blinded and maimed in the faculties which are supreme?
00:09:55
Speaker
Of course, the metaphor here is quite literal, but you cannot see the truth of the matter. And because of that, she believes that the best action is one that is in fact wrong. And that's why it's a tragedy, of course. And that's why so many other mistakes are tragic.
00:10:20
Speaker
So that's a, that's a, that's good. ah like That goes into a little bit more detail and weakness of will and how it's related to Socratic intellectualism. You know, this idea that the simple idea that we do what we believe is best.
00:10:37
Speaker
That means that weakness of will is impossible. It means that people, including ourselves, make mistakes, act wrongly, out of ignorance, not out of, say, a pure desire to do evil.
00:10:54
Speaker
And it's also connected to the the stoic argument for virtue, where if you think about you know but stoics believe virtue is what is ultimately important. And in part, one of the key arguments for that is that virtue is always good and that they're looking for something that's unconditionally good, virtue is what fits that bill, what fits that description. And, of course, the question is, well, why are they looking for the unconditional good? It's because they see humans as doing what they believe as good all the time. And hence, you want to, ah as a human, as a rational creature, ensure that your belief about what is good maps onto what is good all the time in every situation.
Marcus Aurelius on Coexisting with Ignorance
00:11:43
Speaker
And that's, I think, another connection here about why the Stoics sort of think this way, think you think about how the other system sort of comes comes together and is connected to this idea of Socratic intellectualism and the importance of the belief that virtue is always good and and the importance of of their ethics you know and how their ethics maps onto their psychology.
00:12:13
Speaker
So that's just a little bit more detail on that letter. I think a great place to end is with another instance that I mentioned in a letter of the yeah Socratic intellectualism in action. And that's of course Marcus Aurelius's book two, part one. So I'll read that out from the George Long translation.
00:12:34
Speaker
Begin the morning by saying to yourself, I shall meet with the busy body the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, and social. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I, who have seen the nature of the good, that it is beautiful, and of the bad, that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to me.
00:12:56
Speaker
Not only of the same blood or seed, but that it participates in the same intelligence and the same portion of divinity. I can neither be injured by any of them, for no one can fix on me what is ugly, nor can I be angry with my kinsmen nor hate him.
Conclusion and Holiday Wishes
00:13:12
Speaker
For we are made for cooperation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth. To act against one another then is contrary to nature, and it is acting against one another to be vexed and to turn away." Thanks so much for listening, and Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Bye.
00:13:36
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more.
00:13:55
Speaker
Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyer.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.