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Contending for Marriage — Danny and Kathryn Perez
68 Plays15 days ago
Anyone who has had the blessing of crossing paths with Danny and Kathryn Perez's ministry has been blessed by their wealth of wisdom in marriage. From the outside, however, one could easily miss the long journey they have taken to get to where they are now, and their openness and honesty in marriage has served as an inspiration and an example to countless marriages. They sat down to discuss their story with Brian and Dave.
Learn more about Cadence's ministry to the military: https://cadence.org/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'In Cadence' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to In Cadence, where we talk about what it looks like to share the gospel in our lives with the military community. Join us as we talk about what God is doing in the lives of our service members and how we can be a part of it.
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to the In Cadence podcast, where we share stories of God's work among military communities around the world.
Meet Danny and Catherine Perez
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm Brian. I'm here with Hutch, and we've got some fun guests for you today.
00:00:36
Speaker
We're joined by Danny and Catherine Perez, who have served as missionaries with Cadence for over 40 years. And over those decades, they've walked through joys, challenges, and plenty of real life experience in both ministry and marriage. And one of the things that makes their story so powerful It's their willingness to be transparent about the struggles that they've faced together.
00:00:58
Speaker
So in today's episode, we'll talk honestly about conflict in marriage, how God has met them in difficult seasons, and why they believe openness and vulnerability are key to building authentic relationships in ministry and in life. So their testimony is not about a perfect marriage, but about a faithful God who works through imperfect people. So grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and we're glad that you're listening today. so huch Welcome to the podcast, Perezas. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Glad to hear Thanks, Brian. It's good to be here. Honestly, these last few months have been kind of a whirlwind for me. And you talk about grab a cup of coffee and join us for this podcast. It just feels good to sit down, to sit down with friends, to hear stories of God's faithfulness, and even to journey into the rocky places of each other's lives where the Spirit has moved in ways that we couldn't have anticipated. And yet he's proven himself good and faithful. So...
00:01:58
Speaker
It just feels good to sit together um to talk about his goodness. And for those of you who are listening, werere we're glad you're sitting down with us. um So Danny, Catherine, great to have
Journey from Military to Ministry
00:02:11
Speaker
you guys here. Tell us a little bit about, you guys have this incredible history, both in your marriage and in Cadence, in Cadence over 40 years now.
00:02:18
Speaker
um Tell us a little bit about your background, how you connected with Cadence and how long you've been a part of the ministry. So I grew up in California and came to Christ as a senior in high school and um joined the Navy. while While my time was in the Navy, I was in the wound up at the Subic Servicemen Center in Olagopo City in the Philippines. And that was my first introduction to Cadence, originally Overseas Christian Servicemen Centers.
00:02:52
Speaker
And I was so blessed and grew so much. And the house director there really mentored me and really moved into my life. And so it was there ah through and another missionary speaker that he had brought in that i realized I wanted to go into the ministry. So I got out of the Navy and went to Multnomah Bible College.
00:03:14
Speaker
And during that time, really excited. really infused in relationship with a number of people who had grown up in Cadence. um Their parents were missionaries, some of the founders of our organization.
00:03:29
Speaker
And my senior year, I had a conversation with Dick Paddy and he he said, i could put you in five places right now for ministry. And so I decided to come to serve with Cadence in 1984.
00:03:43
Speaker
and came to Germany and started working in several different hospitality houses. And it was there during one of those years that I met Catherine and we started dating and that' history I was in Germany as a medical service corps officer and it was 1987 and I had only been there a couple months.
Challenges in Early Ministry and Marriage
00:04:05
Speaker
And I met Danny at the Schweinfurt hospitality house where he was working. And there was a ministry, the Hanau hospitality house was located in the city where I was stationed.
00:04:15
Speaker
So I started going to that. And that was my first introduction to real community and vibrant community. people that had really vibrant walks with Jesus. And I'd never seen that before. Yeah. So we started dating, got married, and they would call us an officer and a gentleman.
00:04:38
Speaker
That's great. So how long did you stay? Did you get married before you got out of the military? We did. And I was pregnant with the first one And um I finished my four years and then got out.
00:04:50
Speaker
And then joined Cadence shortly thereafter? Joined Cadence when I got married. Great. Yeah. And so we we actually ran ministry. We actually probably, i mean I mean, this kind of leads into what we're talking about, but we did too much ministry right off the bat, probably, for a couple like us. We we had no idea what we were in for, but we were doing ministry right away.
00:05:17
Speaker
And I think that really hurt us, to be honest. So there's some negative impact to that. But talk about, I think, what so many, and I think about even my time when I was first on the mission field, the the energy and the excitement. I want to serve the Lord. I want to give all that I can for him. What, if you can reflect back on that time, some of that passion that you had for the Lord and and serving military communities. ah Talk about that a little bit.
00:05:47
Speaker
I mean, I often wonder where I'd be if it weren't for cadence. Like it saved my life. It did. Yeah. can We just love military people.
00:05:58
Speaker
And it was just a joy to have them in our home and to live life with them on a regular basis. Catherine, when you say that, like, what what are you picturing? when Well, I mean, I had never, i hadn't grown up with, um,
00:06:15
Speaker
of an understanding of what healthy, vibrant community looks like. And so hospitality house ministry and seeing Cadence houses, it was my first look at people sharing their lives together.
00:06:31
Speaker
And I had come into the army and I was going to be a career military officer and the Lord quickly, i mean, miraculously changed my direction instantly. um I mean, Danny was real upfront that he, that if we would have a relationship and continue that he was like, he wanted to do this for the rest of his life.
00:06:51
Speaker
And I, I bought in hook, line and sinker and the Lord just did a, like a one 80 on me. And I, I easily walked away from my career in the army to do this.
00:07:06
Speaker
That's great. So early in marriage, Uh-huh. We're curious, how did you guys imagine marriage would look like? And how has reality either been what it looks like or been different for you?
00:07:21
Speaker
So I grew up in a home, a very moral home. And I would say my parents just had this sweet relationship. I never saw them argue my whole life.
00:07:34
Speaker
I'm sure they had disagreements, but they just never did it in front of us. And so I grew up with this picture that marriage was this fairytale thing and you would live happily ever after and we'd never fight or argue. And we get married and we start conflicting. And I'm just like...
00:07:55
Speaker
shocked, like, this isn't what I signed up for. this This is so surprising to me. This is not what I thought it was going to be like. This is not what I dreamed that it was going to be like. And so it was it was quite shocking.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think there was a lot of disappointment, like right off the bat, right out of the gate that this is this is going to be really hard work. And it has been really hard work for us. Yeah. I would say the first two years weren't as difficult. There were some moments, but she went to work at 6.30 every morning because she was still in the military and then didn't come home till 6.30 at night. And so we'd eat dinner and it was mostly peaceful. And then she'd go to bed pretty soon after that. And so it's like we didn't have the the time to conflict. It was still in the honeymoon period. But then when we went back to the States and now we're ah around one another, we were both in school, we're conflicting all the time. And it was, it was very, very challenging. And so right away we called some of our friends and we asked them to come sit with us. And Brian and Lori Davis came and sat in our living room and tried to help us figure out what this marriage thing was supposed to look like. A lot of people tried to help us.
00:09:14
Speaker
And, uh, I mean, our personalities are really, really different. Danny's very gentle and tolerant. I'm really hostile and wired tight and sharp and aggressive.
Managing Conflict and Counseling in Marriage
00:09:25
Speaker
and um And our generational issues in our families came into play right off the bat.
00:09:34
Speaker
And we've been really kind of unraveling some of that stuff our whole married life. So tell us a little bit more about that, the the normalcy of conflict, like that conflict has just been a normal part of your marriage for all of these years.
00:09:51
Speaker
Help paint a picture of that for us. What has that conflict looked like over time? Well, we've shared with people that we really don't. think the same about just about everything.
00:10:03
Speaker
Or anything. We don't think the same about anything. everything. Even that sounds. mean, we're pretty one on ministry things, but everything else.
00:10:16
Speaker
And in a counseling program, I was a part of the professor made this statement. He said in marriage, there there are three types of marriages. The first marriage for about 10% of couples, they have...
00:10:29
Speaker
they they just get along and their marriage flows really freely. They hardly have any conflict. and And marriage just works for them with their personalities or temperament. And I believe that's what my parents were. And then he said about 80% of couples, they just have a normal up and down, high and low conflict and and sweet times. And then he said, and then there's about 10% of couples that have just fight and are at war all the time.
00:10:59
Speaker
And I realized that is us. And he said that was them and his wife too. And he said, but it doesn't matter what category you're in You can have a great marriage.
00:11:09
Speaker
And so that statement really gave me hope. I was just like, oh, I'm not weird or different. We do have conflict, but we can have a great marriage.
00:11:20
Speaker
And that really gave me a lot of hope. And we went and got some counseling to help us Get better at this thing called living together. Well, and then we went and got some more and some more and some more. i mean, we've really gotten intense counseling several times and been deeply helped each time.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I really think that the Lord has been doing a work of healing. in I mean, I know in my own personal life, like he, you know, he saves us and then he's saving us.
00:11:50
Speaker
And I don't know that if I'd been married to anybody else, that the healing that the Lord, I mean, he would have accomplished it somehow, but I'm very aware that it has been through our marriage and the difficulties that he's been healing me and sanctifying me.
00:12:07
Speaker
It's happened through our marriage. Yeah, it's both. And it's happening through a hard marriage. Absolutely. And I met you guys over 20 years ago. And something that's been um unique about you guys is this conversation we're having right now um is not uncommon for you.
Transparency and Encouragement in Struggles
00:12:27
Speaker
You guys are transparent. You're vulnerable with the fact that your marriage is challenging, can be difficult or is often difficult. what Why have you guys chosen to be more transparent instead of less transparent? It'd be easier to try to dress it up and make people think it's not what it is, but it's actually a prettier picture than it is.
00:12:47
Speaker
Well, I just hate hypocrisy. So I'm not, I'm not a good hypocrite. um But we run into more people who are struggling than we do who aren't.
00:13:00
Speaker
And we feel like that's the honest reality. And so if we feel like we bring encouragement by just saying, okay, we sure are messy.
00:13:11
Speaker
We're struggling to do this. And God's grace has shown up for us over and over and over and supernaturally and miraculously over and over and over to, um, he's been enough for us, you know?
00:13:26
Speaker
So I think we give hope that way. Yeah, absolutely. I think people have often commented Wow, I have the freedom to be messy.
00:13:38
Speaker
Sometimes i had a friend of mine that said to me, you know, sometimes I went to this church where the pastor, it just seemed like he had it all together. And they seemed like they had this perfect marriage and everything. And I couldn't relate to him. And I thought, he said, I thought I could never be like them.
00:13:55
Speaker
I could never do it i always thought I was a failure. And he said, in being with you guys, I feel like there's hope because I know our marriage is a mess. and i and you're transparent about that your marriage is a mess. And wow, that gives me a lot of hope that that we can do this together and we can get the help that we need.
00:14:17
Speaker
And we don't have to pretend that things are better than they are. Yeah. And what would you say I'm thinking of even those who are listening to this right now? And there's probably some people who are feeling the tension inside like, oh, missionaries, ministers, isn and their marriage has been a mess all these years.
00:14:37
Speaker
Is that okay? I don't know. How do I feel about that? am i feeling some of that tension about following Jesus and being a mess at the same time. What would you say to them?
00:14:49
Speaker
Hmm.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah. What would you say, Henny? I would say I've always wanted to get T-shirts and hand it out to a group that say, I'm a mess, you're a mess.
00:15:04
Speaker
Because if if if we had it all together, we wouldn't need him. We wouldn't need the Lord. We wouldn't need dependence. We wouldn't need trust.
00:15:15
Speaker
We wouldn't need to um rely on anybody else but ourselves. And relying on ourselves doesn't work very well. And so I think, you know, one of my favorite verses has been that God's power is made perfect in my weakness, in my struggle.
00:15:37
Speaker
know, in 2 Corinthians, Paul talks about this. And I think oftentimes we rewrite that verse and we say that God's power is made perfect in my giftedness, in my education, in my knowledge, in my wisdom. And that's how God's going to use me. God says, no, my power comes out when you're not enough, when you need help, when you're broken.
00:16:02
Speaker
Because then you bring that brokenness into the world that is already broken and saying, that's where God's going to meet you. He's going to meet you in the midst of that.
00:16:14
Speaker
there Yeah. Amen. Amen to that. Yeah. Love that. So with that in mind, as you continue to talk about this, how do you guys navigate the tension in talking about your struggles while honoring one another? what What does that look like to to be honest about the difficulties and not throw the other person under the bus, so to speak?
00:16:42
Speaker
I don't think I did it well in the early years. i mean, I don't know that I honored him well. And... um I think the spirit just brought conviction about that, that I needed to, we we had to have conversations about what we were going to share and how we were going to share it and come to some level of agreement.
00:17:04
Speaker
I tend to be the more vulnerable one. And um I think that that's helped you move towards that and offer more vulnerability. But, um, yeah, because you become like the people that you spend time with.
00:17:23
Speaker
And that's why i used to say, you know, you look at old people and they even look like one another and we do rub off on one another. And I think in, in our, uh,
00:17:35
Speaker
relationship we've gotten better through counseling, through necessarily techniques, but through honesty and trying to move towards one another, to love the other person, to hear the other person. That's been a thing that that I think has been hard for me because oftentimes you just want them to understand you and you're not as naturally inclined to really hear the other person.
00:18:05
Speaker
We say we hear you, but I think sometimes in reality, im I'm not really hearing her, not really hearing what's going on in her soul. And so I miss her.
00:18:16
Speaker
And that that causes frustration. I mean, it's been one of the places where um i think there was a place in my childhood where I was alone and not heard. And so in marriage, when I have felt alone and not heard, i have felt been triggered and then I have erupted and escalated and then attacked him and... um And then I run away emotionally. i shut down and then, oh, she is alone.
00:18:50
Speaker
And then then I'm actually terrified in my soul. But I didn't know I was terrified because I'm just angry. I'm just, I'm loud and I'm angry, which is scary for him. So we've done that a lot over the years.
00:19:04
Speaker
And honestly, just in the last, within the last decade, and most recently in the last year, have we understood some of the specifics of what's going on between us?
00:19:16
Speaker
Because we've gotten, because we've continued to get help.
Emotional Support and Personal Strength
00:19:20
Speaker
And then does that help you? Because the picture you just painted, I just see you moving away from each other. oh Or if ah if you're moving towards each other, with aggression.
00:19:29
Speaker
um What... When there is that distance between you or the felt, agreement I mean, are there ways that you guys have learned for the two of you to move towards each other in love versus run away and hide or want to attack or? Yeah, I think one of our counselors, Caden's counselors, shared with us, and it was so helpful for me.
00:19:57
Speaker
when he said, can you look at the little girl inside of her? Can you take care of that girl? Because I never thought she was needy because she was a strong person. She's she' not needy.
00:20:10
Speaker
She's strong and powerful and and vocal. And who needs to take care of that? She's quite capable. But he helped me to see, no, there's a little girl inside there that's really vulnerable and really hurting. Can you take care of that girl? And I was like, oh.
00:20:27
Speaker
I can do that. i can move toward that. So it's really helpful now. i don't get it right all the time, but every once in a while when she's frightened, really was what's happening, frightened and fearful, instead of responding to her anger or her frustration, I can say, oh there's a little girl in there that I need to take care of that I need to move towards and calm help to calm her soul. That has helped me, I think, more than anything else.
00:21:03
Speaker
And I think the thing that's helped me really is establishing really solid rhythms of being alone with the Lord, because He's the one that has made me feel safe and secure.
00:21:15
Speaker
So I spend a good amount of time in the Word every morning, alone, quiet with him. and I start my practice. Like I light a candle and I look at that as a visual reminder that he's with me. And I say, you are here and I'm safe.
00:21:31
Speaker
And I, sometimes I got to breathe deep and like get regulated, but because he's become over the years, he's become the, my safe place. He's the fortress that I run to Then I haven't been demanding it at Danny as much. And so it,
00:21:47
Speaker
It's not as loud and it's not as it doesn't look like what it used to for sure. That's great to hear. and Even as you guys are talking about this, I'm sure there's some marriages out there that feel similar. Well, we know there are some that feel similar to what you're saying.
00:22:03
Speaker
um And we're just mindful, too, of there's there's appropriate vulnerability and inappropriate vulnerabilities. I'm sure you guys don't share everything. hmm. ah Like what advice would you give having walked this journey for years?
00:22:18
Speaker
How do you find what's appropriate, vulnerable and transparency in what you share? I think for us, a very high value is hearing other people's stories.
00:22:30
Speaker
Because once you hear someone's story, you can't help but love them. And so generally, when we sit down with a couple or out to dinner for the first time, we usually share our stories. We take you know, 15, 20 minutes, maybe sometimes a half hour each. And we tell our story and we're pretty vulnerable about our sin and our brokenness.
00:22:51
Speaker
And so we've found that after we've done that, then when it's their turn to share their story, we hear things we never dreamed that we we're hearing. And sometimes even the spouse goes, I never knew that about you because they're hearing that for the first time. So the vulnerability and ah and openness and transparency has been just, it's, um I wouldn't say the magic pill, but it's been wonderful to connect with people and they feel so heard, understood, and known in a very short period of time.
00:23:29
Speaker
I think when we hear people's pain, you know, i think the spirit then gives, has given us clarity about what part of our story and what part of our pain connects to their pain.
00:23:43
Speaker
And then we can share that. mean, we really believe that it's in tight community and in relationship and being honest that we help one another grow up.
00:23:57
Speaker
into Christ, into all things that he has for us. And I, the, one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard is like when, when Jesus calls Lazarus out of the tomb, he in, in John, I wrote it down in John 11 44, he calls undoubtedly the men around him and says, take the grave clothes off.
Community and Vulnerability in Faith
00:24:20
Speaker
Right? Like bind him unbind, ah take the grave clothes off. Yeah. And it's this picture of like a group of close friends coming alongside to to remove the grave clothes.
00:24:35
Speaker
And to protect him. Yeah. And to cover him. And it's just such a beautiful picture of what community is called to be as we throw off the grave clothes, as we put off the old and we put on the new.
00:24:48
Speaker
And um so, I mean, I feel strongly that that happens in these kinds of conversations in foursomes and sixsomes as we, as we hear each other's suffering and pain and we help one another see the Lord's goodness in the land of the living. Who was the guy famous guy said we are wounded in community and we are healed in community. Yeah.
00:25:13
Speaker
That's, that's the thing that makes it really powerful. I think you're you're speaking as something so significant and at the heart of what we do in our ministry, in the ministry of hospitality and community. And for so many of us, when we hear an invitation of vulnerability and an expression of that, that the desire to self-protect is what usually takes over. It's the first thing that we feel internally is I've got a guard. I don't want to share. Here's the reasons why I can't share.
00:25:45
Speaker
um And yet it's that very sharing that builds community and community gives us a safe place to share. And when we share safely, builds deeper community. And so there is this give and take between both of those that I'm going to have to take some risk in order to be known and to be healed in the presence of Jesus, but also in the presence of his people.
00:26:12
Speaker
yeah And you guys are talking about the ways that you live that out. That comes on the tail of years of practice, years of maybe, maybe tell us about a moment that that vulnerability was fearful.
00:26:28
Speaker
Was there ever a time when you were uncertain? Oh, can we be open here? Can we be honest here? And then you saw God do good in that moment. I think for me, it's personality driven. used to think that my, my honesty, my transparency was like,
00:26:46
Speaker
I thought it was there was maturity in that. But honestly, I've come to realize that it is part, it's really personality driven. Like I don't mind exposing my sin.
00:26:58
Speaker
It's harder for Danny. So you're probably one that it's been more, so it's been scarier for you than it has been for me. Yeah, would say.
00:27:10
Speaker
I mean, I think I've ended up exposing him at times when I've talked about how I've treated him. You know, I mean, I have some pretty shameful moments.
00:27:20
Speaker
I mean, one that's glaring in our background where I back him into a corner. And I mean, I've been triggered by feeling alone. And then I back him into a corner and he collapses under the weight of my verbal that assault.
00:27:39
Speaker
my machine gun that I'm using on him. And I think probably that that's been hard on him. Like my honesty about what it's been like for him to have to live with me.
00:27:54
Speaker
I think it's been very hard on him at times. what What I'm hearing that's really beautiful. It helps me see things in a different way. I think when we talk about falling after Jesus, we all want our lives to be transformed. Mm-hmm.
00:28:10
Speaker
but we only want to talk about them ah when the transformation looks real shiny, beautiful, and nice. And you guys are talking about a decades long marriage that has been transformed in beautiful ways and still carries mess with it and hardness with it.
00:28:26
Speaker
And yet the work of the spirit Like I'm here too, like, and I wish, I wish our podcast listeners could see your guys' faces when you guys look at each other, how you're smiling right now, Danny, how the little smirk you got there, Catherine. I mean, there's there's a beautiful work that God has done and persevered your marriage to this point.
00:28:48
Speaker
Hasn't perfected it. Truly the grace of God. Like it's miraculous. And it, it is a miracle that we are still married. Yeah. And it is a miracle that, um that and obviously, he's borne fruit.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yes. Through our our broken, messy lives. He's done it. Yeah. Beauty out of ashes. I love it. I love it. And you guys have continued to choose each other.
Practices for a Strong Marriage
00:29:18
Speaker
Like we, you've alluded to, and even explicitly talked about the hardships and the challenges you guys have faced in your relationship and a marriage.
00:29:27
Speaker
And I'm sure in ministry too, after 37 years of that choosing one another and choosing the Lord day after day after day, um How you do it?
00:29:39
Speaker
How do you keep choosing one another? Recently, Danny, um sometime in the last year, he he challenged us that like we aren't smiling at each other.
00:29:52
Speaker
Like, what are we doing? Like, we're not starting our day, like looking into each other's eyes and smiling. And um also he challenged me sometime through some teaching and some reading he'd done just that I wasn't, I wasn't being grateful. So just the practice of gratefulness and thanksgiving.
00:30:14
Speaker
And, um, I think some of those simple practices of being, of practicing gratefulness and starting my morning, like sometimes, i mean, if we're in an ugly spot, then I have to begin by writing down, you know, maybe 20 things that I'm about him that I'm just thankful for.
00:30:33
Speaker
And then remembering to greet each other and to smile and to look into each other's eyes. Yeah. We were missing each other's eyes. Like God doesn't miss our eyes. You know, I needed we needed to pay attention to each other's eyes. Yeah.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah. That and for me, it was just um waking up. And i remember for when I got confronted me with my lack of forgiveness towards her.
00:31:02
Speaker
For about six months, my first prayer in the morning was, Lord, I'm going to choose to forgive her to- today. Because I know she's going to say something or she's going to do something that's going to trigger me.
00:31:14
Speaker
And I'm going to be frustrated. So I'm choosing now to forgive her. And Lord, would you give me a posture of forgiveness? Would you give me a posture um of gratefulness and not complaining?
00:31:28
Speaker
And that has been that's been huge as well. I just want to say that it in the scriptures, it talks about God's steadfast love.
00:31:39
Speaker
And in the Old Testament, that Hebrew word is hesed. You guys have reflected steadfast love. um It's one thing to have steadfast love when it's easy and everything. But I mean, God's love for us as rebellious people is steadfast even when every day i wrong God it's almost like he wakes up in the morning like you said Danny said I'm going to be forgiving Brian today but that's his steadfast love towards us absolutely much
Reflections on Love and Faithfulness
00:32:06
Speaker
it's his posture isn't it and it is and in your marriage you guys have reflected steadfast love to each other but it's been through the messy and the hard sure has
00:32:18
Speaker
And there's plenty of people listening to this who will appreciate hearing this story today. Okay. Thanks for allowing us to be here. Absolutely. Thank you for for sharing it, for opening your hearts, your lives. I know it's who you are and what you do, but taking the time to let a few more people out there hear your story and hear his story through you.
00:32:40
Speaker
Thanks, guys.