Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to In Cadence, where we talk about what it looks like to share the gospel in our lives with the military community. Join us as we talk about what God is doing in the lives of our service members and how we can be a part it.
Speaker: ah Welcome back to In Cadence. David Hutchings, Brian Cleger, and this morning we get to sit with David Schroeder, president of Cadence International. And this is a podcast Hutchings and I have been looking forward to for quite a while.
Speaker: So thanks for joining us. It's great to be here. I can't think of ah two other leaders I would rather discuss this topic with than you guys because we've shared a lot together and lived a lot and suffered a lot and enjoyed a lot. So thanks for this opportunity. Amen to that.
Speaker: We're glad to have you here. And this, it does feel like a privilege to talk about these things together and all around the world in our hospitality houses. There's questions that are being asked and stories that are being shared as people engage in relationship and in story and they meet each other for the first time and counts. catalyzes a relationship where then God does this amazing work. And, um, I'd love for us to set the context with some similar questions. And one of the questions are, are people will often ask as someone comes into their home is where are you coming from?
Speaker: ah You know, there's so many places around the world that as military PCS and come into a new community. But then also, how did you hear about Cadence is often asked. So i want to ask you the same question that's happening in our houses all around the world. Where are you coming from and how did you hear about Cadence? Hmm.
Speaker: I love the question and I love the fact that it's being discussed yeah all the time in cadence settings because our stories matter so much to the community that we're living in.
Speaker: And, you know, in 1980, when I was at my graduation from high school, Peninsula Seahawks in Gig Harbor, Washington, and the valedictorian was saying, follow my dreams and, you know, make sure that you believe and you can do whatever you set your mind to.
Speaker: i would have, I didn't think about military. I didn't think about leadership. I didn't think about anything beyond Washington State. I'd only been out of Washington State a couple of times.
Speaker: So my story is shaped by the fact that the first 10 years were in missions in Northern Vancouver Island. ah My folks were by vocational missionaries up there. And I love that setting in that life.
Speaker: Then the other 10, I lived in a single wide trailer in New York, Geek Harbor, Washington with my five siblings, two dogs, four cats. And my dad was a custodian and they had gotten out of ministry and my life got a lot smaller.
Speaker: And I enjoyed high school and i went to a little country church, but I really didn't walk with God. And I really, the spirit moved on me in a service after I graduated from high school. I thought about being an architect.
Speaker: I thought about being in theater or in music. That was it. And I don't think I would have succeeded in any of those. But God clearly moved to my heart that Sunday in church.
Speaker: And I ended up at Multnomah School the Bible down in Portland, Oregon. And it's a wonderful story of God's leading. And there I met some siblings, Joyce and Dave Patti, who grew up in Cadence International. So my connection to Cadence started in choir at Multnomah.
Speaker: And they were putting together a singing group of four people to go out and travel and minister to military people and young people all across Europe. And I tried out and daddy sang bass and they needed a bass. And the first two guys they asked declined. So I'm a third stringer cadence person.
Speaker: And I traveled for four summers ah and then stayed out a year. And I met my first military person after I got off my first airplane ride ever to Germany with the singing group.
Speaker: And it was love at first sight, truly. I i couldn't believe how open and responsive and real and how impactful a a few months could be, a few moments could be.
Speaker: So that started my cadence career. We ended up 10 years in Germany serving with Cadence Student Ministries. I led that ministry for five years. And then in 1995, God called us back to this position. So in a nutshell, that's our story. There's a lot to talk about in that story, but I'm just so grateful for the way God led in those moments where really I was just a poor country bumpkin who God just plucked and said, I've got something for you.
Speaker: And it's been a it's been a joy and a privilege to follow that path. That's great. And you mentioned the Patti siblings. You've stayed in touch with them over the years, haven't you? Yeah, generally, they're some of my closest friends. And We're laughing because if you don't know, I married into the Patti family. I sort of married in into Caden. So Joyce, the oldest, was on my singing team for four summers.
Speaker: And she says we didn't get along for three summers. And it was more like brother, sister, you know, squabbling. But the fourth summer, we started falling in love and we were kind of unlikely suspects to fall in love. And ah certainly her parents were shocked and her parents, some of the founders of the organization. Her dad was Europe director at that time.
Speaker: But through all that story and through the Patty family, really, that and including my family. But this family has impacted my life more than any other, of course.
Speaker: And Joyce and I got married in 1986. And it's ah and it's been a joy and a privilege to be married to a Patty. that' And her brothers are some of my closest friends.
Speaker: And her parents are in heaven, but they were some my closest friends here on earth as well. Going back a little bit, I love what you shared about So you could be in music or theater or an architect, but there there were things that in your own strength and wisdom that you could have pursued or could have desired and did.
Speaker: And yet the Lord redirected that. um And just, i don't I don't know what's there, but I'm curious in that step of faith away from your own wisdom to God's leading. um I'm sure you've had a lot of those moments over the years where this is what I can see.
Speaker: But this is where God's moving. Talk about the steps of faith between those two to walk in obedience, in uncertainty. think life is filled with those.
Speaker: Those I think those moments come oftentimes at points of suffering or points of disruption or times where, um,
Speaker: We're living in a sort of sense of certainty about who we are and what we're doing. We're living out of our gifts. I don't know. Things are kind of rolling. And something usually happens to create tension or ah uncertainty. And I think those are just great moments of following the calling to faith because the scriptures are just full of walking by faith.
Speaker: We know Hebrews 12, 13, just great chapters and 11. Let's go with 11 first. And there's something in me that wants to live by sight. There's something in me that...
Speaker: um Wants to follow my own desires. And a lot of times those are lined up with God in the spirit because I have his heart. I have his mind. I i am full of the spirit.
Speaker: um So a lot of life walking in the spirit is walking in faith. And those things just a align. We follow what is in front of us. But I think it's the moments of change, disruption, uncertainty that that moment you're talking about, Dave, is just really critical in terms of, OK, can we recognize that this is a turn that the spirit is asking us to do and walk in faith and follow it?
Speaker: ah Because part of the uncertainty is knowing whether that's actually happening or not, or whether that's just a stray thought in the moment. So I think walking by faith is exciting. It's an adventure and and it's a mystery still to me.
Speaker: When you're in that moment of like almost a pivot, almost, I don't know, a fork in the road. sir like, how have you experienced how you know which way to turn or whether it is just in your own head or whether it is from the Lord? How do you, how do you know? ah Well, I asked my wife because as husband sitting here, we know that a person that knows us the best and could help us decipher that is the one who lives with us. Sometimes I spend my kids. And I,
Speaker: and It also, I think a lot of those moments are a combination of quiet, um the word, ah stepping away from the torrent of busyness to actually hear the spirit.
Speaker: And it's a combination of that along with community. We've had a lot of those moments together in leadership where we've wrestled with, is this a moment? What is this moment?
Speaker: And how do we decipher it even as a community? Yeah. And so I think a lot of the really critical ones are beyond our ability just to discover on our own. There is something about the voice and eyes and ears of close friends, loved ones, and comrades in the kingdom that help us figure that out.
Speaker: Oh, so true. That's great. I appreciate that. ah More and more in my life, I'm realizing that the it seems like the normative way God works is through his people.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. And so even in those moments of uncertainty, of a fork in the road, the way I might be hearing God's voice or which path to turn is actually through his people.
Speaker: Not some, you know, close my eyes and hear a distinct, actually, I've never heard the distinct audible voice of God. So I appreciate you saying it that way. I do. I think it comes through his children and the spirit through his children, the spirit through his word through his children,
Speaker: Sometimes circumstance. um But if we're out of community, I think scriptures and our experience and our listeners experience would be if we're out of community, that's when we're in the most danger of misinterpreting.
Speaker: So if we're out of fellowship with the Lord, if we walk in the light as he is in light, we have fellowship with one another. It's in that context of fellowship and light that we see the path the clearest.
Speaker: Thanks. Yeah, that's good. um I mean, 30 years of leadership ah in this mission and 35, 30 in your current role, five leading our student ministries, Malachi.
Speaker: um You've probably found your sweet spot and learned a few lessons along the way that's shaped your style of leadership. How would you describe your leadership style?
Speaker: When I think of sweet spot, I think of golfing. And then I think, yeah, that actually is a good metaphor you know, Um, there is a sense where when you do something a long time, you find your rhythm, you know what you're good at, you understand your weaknesses.
Speaker: And yet like golf, you just still shank the ball, all kinds of directions. You have good days, bad days. You have, you wonder if you should ever be a golfer again.
Speaker: ah like what am I doing out here? And I think that's a good description of 30 years of leadership. Um, and i And I think, and I'm still learning and growing. I always want to be.
Speaker: think the last five years have been, my first five years and my last five years have by far been the hardest and most challenging and most growth producing in me as a leader.
Speaker: And i it's just interesting. And maybe we'll talk more about that. But they're also the 10 years I'm probably the most proud of. in terms of what I offered and provided and gave to the organization and to the to military.
Speaker: but In terms of my style, I'm definitely, I would use words like servant, relational, even even transformational. I mean, servant in that...
Speaker: um I think of verses like Philippians 2, 3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility of mind, consider others more important than yourselves.
Speaker: Have this attitude that Christ had. And that attitude is about incarnational service. And at the core, I think, of my leadership, I hope, is an energy that's always going towards others and towards the good of the organization. It's that servant other-centeredness.
Speaker: And when I say s servant, and clearly scripture's full of that that picture for us. And shepherd, those are two of the big ones. it It doesn't mean doormat. It doesn't mean people pleasing. It doesn't mean ah doing what makes the most feel good. There's so many hard decisions in being a servant, but I think it's the posture is that I'm here to serve.
Speaker: And I have the opportunity to do that through leadership. um And that, man... it's That gets tested whether or not you really believe you want to be a servant when people treat you like that and when you're invisible.
Speaker: I think of my dad as a custodian. He spent so much of his life invisible. People didn't even see or know he was because he worked night shifts. And a lot of leadership is just the dirty work, invisible stuff that needs to be done. So the setting is there for the work of God to happen.
Speaker: That's the non fun part of it. That's the invisible part. That's the part we don't see a lot of credit for, but I think for Christian leaders is kind of core. ah relational, I mean, it's cadence.
Speaker: ah Cadence has shaped me and I've shaped cadence. And i just think, I think all churches and Christian organization organizations, leaders leaders would say relational is important.
Speaker: Um, I think for me, somehow it is just so core to me as a person and who God made me, um what I value, what I enjoy.
Speaker: When I think about all the moments in my leadership that are most important to me, they're all usually in some context of relationship. Sometimes it's suffering. Sometimes it's just victories, rejoicing. It's in decision making.
Speaker: But I think when we look at at the word and we look at Christ's life, we have to say loving God and loving others. That is what makes the Great Commission happen. It's sometimes I think we've made the Great great Commission only a task.
Speaker: And then it's all metrics and tasks that measure whether or not we're accomplishing the Great Commission. But the Great Commission, all the ministry comes down to people.
Speaker: conversations, interactions, ah ah connections God is making. It's people. It's our relationship with him and others. And then transformational is a word that comes to mind because I think if I'm if i'm not making a difference in the people who are around me, then I'm maybe not living Philippians 2 like I think I am.
Speaker: And i like to say, as you guys know, loving you changes me. And I don't mean just you two guys, ah because you have changed me. And I think I've changed you guys. And we apologize for how we've changed you.
Speaker: It's been good. It's iron on iron. And and that's challenging. But that is that is what we seek to create in our hospitality houses and cadence and our youth groups and children's programs, coffee houses, retreats, everything is this atmosphere Where loving you not only makes a difference in your life because I'm looking, I'm seeing, I'm understanding, i'm loving, I'm mentoring.
Speaker: But loving you is is also bringing out the best in me and the worst in me. And so to love you well, I have to look at my own life and ask the Lord, what are you doing in me that you want to change? That's marriage. That's parenting. It's even grandparenting, but not near as much because that's mostly just fun.
Speaker: But it's the truth that ah it's going to be transformational if we're living with this other centeredness and it's going to go both directions. It's so compelling and counterintuitive. Like as I hear those things, I go, yes, absolutely. And I also think, oh, that's not not necessarily what we tend to gravitate towards, but it is what scripture calls us to. And so that that tension in us to walk in obedience, as you were talking about earlier, and you highlight the the strength and the power of those things so well, what are some of the
Speaker: challenges to that style and that method of leadership struggles? Well, it'll challenge your pride. It'll challenge your security.
Speaker: It'll challenge your confidence. It'll challenge your understanding of yourself and God. It'll, um, it'll expose Real humility or not, it'll expose um
Speaker: true confidence or pretend confidence. i Sometimes I don't know which is true in me because sometimes I'm confident because I just act and I have to. And and then the confidence is sort of there. but And then other times the confidence comes ahead of time.
Speaker: either because the process is so great or I know the people around, but you guys know we've been in conversations and decisions that are so complex and so impossible almost to have an outcome that is going to please the majority. And And you're working to do what's right and follow, you know, a path to make a good decision and one that the Lord would be pleased with.
Speaker: um And you do it in this kind of a way in community. um There are all kinds of things that can get exposed in us or in our relationships.
Speaker: um The honor with which we relate to each other can be challenged. The challenge is that it's raw. It's exposing. it's It can be refining, but it can also be so vulnerable that it can it can draw up our insecurities and in a way that unless we're secure in the Lord, it can be so disruptive to us our leadership. I love how you said that.
Speaker: And I think it's worth noting too, like what you're talking about here with the servant leadership, relational, transformational. um I'm John notes here. ah Maybe they're going to be the chapters of a book you need to write. um It'll challenge your pride, your security, your confidence. Like, as you said that I'm aware of,
Speaker: that Hutch and i have gotten to be a part of the intimate experience of that on the leadership team at Cadence. And so I'm just, I want to say it, you know, for others to hear like, this isn't stuff that's theoretical for you.
Speaker: Yeah. This is real stuff that you live out amongst us in intimate ways that, That ah has created a culture of leadership at cadence that is beautiful, is profound, is deep.
Speaker: It's not easy. It's hard. It's challenging. And yet ah the fruit of the spirit is experienced so readily through it. So um I appreciate getting to be a part of that. Well, I appreciate you saying that um because.
Speaker: If what anything I'm saying here doesn't resonate with your experience, then that would be a great moment to challenge, not confirm, because I would want that. And I really have sought to live that way. yeah and and And it's been reciprocated. you You all have jumped on board with that, and it has been...
Speaker: Our experience, which is the are some of our greatest joys, I've called you my small group because there's nothing like working on the kingdom of God together with people that you love, that love you know the kingdom of God. Those are the best friendships in the world. And that's what we have and have had.
Speaker: Amen to that. Yes. You said first five years and last five years of your leadership have been ah the hardest and yet the most fruitful. But I mean, even as you look at those bookends, are there other surprises about leadership then compared to now or maybe now compared to then is better way to say it?
Speaker: Yeah, you know. A lot of my memories are fuzzy from the first five years. I was 33 to 38. We had young kids in the home and, you know, we were in your season of life and travel picked up and we didn't have communication and FaceTime and Zoom. It was just crazy.
Speaker: Um, in some ways it was simpler because we didn't have all of that. Um, but in other ways, when I said goodbye to our kids, because I traveled about three months out of the year, almost every trip, our youngest Jonathan cried that I was leaving.
Speaker: And he wouldn't see me. And maybe he'd get a phone call. And for the first couple of years of his life, he just was so hard on him. And of course, that I cried going to the airport.
Speaker: um But I think in some ways, ah it was a simpler, slower kind of a leadership that...
Speaker: I benefited from that sort of fits my personality. I like to process. I like I like to make sure on decisions be thorough. I'm a very structured person. And I think it's been the you know harder with the speed, with the number of things hitting my inbox in these years, I would say, especially since covid.
Speaker: how things have picked up, that's been more challenging to me personally to stay up and to stay on top of. And the the pace of decision making has had to pick up significantly.
Speaker: um So those those are a couple of real differences. But then I was in my 30s. I had youthful energy to go after all kinds of things. And now I have aged energy, which I have to be more thoughtful and careful about.
Speaker: And i i trust that I've been benefiting the mission in other ways from years of experience and wisdom. But that relentless energy to just go after things is not there as much anymore. I have to really pace myself more. And that's difficult when the pace is picked up all around me.
Speaker: And so that's that one of the reasons why I think it's time for me to hand off to a younger person. um And I'm excited to because I think it's going to take that that vigor. And it's not that I don't have it spiritually or emotionally. It's just physically, mentally.
Speaker: Not there as much. That's interesting. And for the timeless aspect of this podcast, we don't know when people will listen to it, but we're recording in a season where ah David is transitioning out of his role as president and he'll continue to serve cadence. That's part of the humility piece you're going to continue to bless and serve and what a gift to cadence and to military families that you and your wife will continue to bless and serve. Yeah, we want to. Um, so David's stepping out of that role. And maybe by the time people are listening to this Hutchings sitting right here next to us, this will be the president. Yeah.
Speaker: So that's awesome. We're excited for it. I really am. And, I really am excited to follow. I, I don't, I've always been somewhat of a reluctant leader, like, OK, God just kind of just keeps pushing me into places of influence. And I'm like, oh, that's a man. That's that's ah a lot of criticism, a lot of work, a lot of anguish.
Speaker: And then I also experienced the privilege, the joy, the wonder of leadership. um And and I i know. What it is to have really good, strong, faithful, but also challenging followers.
Speaker: And so I think I'll be a great follower. i look forward to it. You're actually displaying incredible. i get to be a first front row ah witness to the the way you are leading following.
Speaker: Right now, i just made that up. But I know all leaders are followers to some degree, but I mean, as president right now, you're continuing to lead the organization and you're picking really key ah places to follow.
Speaker: And to so, I mean, Cadence isn't going to have one day, you're full president, next day you're full not president. It's been a really beautiful passing off. ah And so there are aspects, you're president right now and you're following Hutchings right in some aspects right now, which is, it's really fun to watch.
Speaker: Thank you for that. appreciate I think it's reciprocal in that Dave and i are both, he's not seeking to grab leadership and I'm not seeking to grab and hold on to leadership.
Speaker: We both have open hands and we're asking the Lord what this process should look like. And a I've seen some leadership changeovers not go well um in various places. And and sometimes it's for lack of clarity. Sometimes it's just simply because, um There's there's ah too much holding on to things or grabbing of things rather than letting go. And I think Dave and I are are working in sync to ah he's honoring me and the things that I want to stay involved in and be on point for.
Speaker: I'm looking for things to give to him. And so I think by the time of the turnover and we'll be well beyond this when this these folks are listening. But I I think so far so good in that we're honoring each other. We're honoring the organization.
Speaker: And I think that's just humility and security. And but the humility and the security, I'm going to ask this question to both of you. Like, ah how has that been formed? You guys are honoring each other.
Speaker: There's humility, there's security. But that doesn't just come out of a contract that you guys decided during the transition. We will do this like relationally. And David, I'll ask you first and then Hutch. But like, what would you guys say has allowed that to be the fruit of this transition between the two of you?
Speaker: Well, I think it's either there or it's not like you don't turn humility and security on for a moment. And so if it's happening now, it's because we've been living in that track in our lives. And now it's just like law leadership. It's situational and changes. There's a lot that can go wrong in a change like this, especially when someone's been in the spot for 30 years.
Speaker: um And. So I think we've been living in that. And then I think the fact that we've been working close together. So if they were coming from outside the organization, there'd be a whole ramp up to build that level of, I guess, trust and understanding um that would need to take place that we didn't need to do because it's already been there. We've already been walking in this community that we've been talking about. And therefore, this is just a Complex and challenging context to do it in, but I think, and then we had discussions about it, like what is this going to mean? We process, and I think that's a part of our leadership is we process our relationships as we go as well, because they influence how we interact and make decisions and walk through a season.
Speaker: So the fact that we have processed that and our wives have processed that some with us as well. um And then with, the course, the board who are governing this whole process. But I think it's at the core is because we've been living those things.
Speaker: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's not something you can manufacture. And there's a lot of good leadership plans and strategies out there. and people will come to the table with this is how things need to happen. It's really easy to come up with how and the what to do.
Speaker: the who we are in the midst of that is something that it comes into the equation. We don't, we don't manufacture it for the moment. And so I think everything you've talked about in your relational style of leadership, how we've sharpened one another, we've seen each other's weaknesses and struggles, and we've held each other up and challenged one another. Our pride has been challenged. You've challenged my pride. You've invited my engagement in new ways that have changed been forming not of my outward leadership, but my inward character. And we've shared in that together. Then to come into this time and say, here's here's how we want to do it. Here's what we want to do. um
Speaker: great ideas, but to actually live that out in the midst of this character that is forged together through seasons of leadership, it feels really easy. It feels really natural. And I don't know how to prescribe that for anybody listening. Like, Oh, if you do this, here's one, two, three, and you'll be there. Here's how you systematize it. Here's how you scale it. Um, takes time, takes effort. It takes relationship. takes the Holy spirit. Um,
Speaker: And to have shared that together, it it feels easy. And that's not a is not a trite answer or to diminish the depth of it. It actually, the ease represents the depth of relational work and spirit work going on in this room. I mean, we feel it with you too, Brian. And as we've navigated these things together.
Speaker: If i had to give a formula on top of all of that, it would be the incoming leader honors what has been and what is. And the outgoing leader releases what will be.
Speaker: So if the incoming leader really looks to celebrate and honor what is, not seek to, unless it's crisis and it's really broken, that's a whole different need of leadership. But if it's generally healthy, you know, as Dave honors, because he's been in it it's easy for him to honor what has been and what is right now and to celebrate that and to see what can be built on that.
Speaker: And then as the outgoing leader, you know, from the moment this transition happens, i'm I'm already starting the process of trusting God for what will be, how Dave will lead cadence and where it will go and how it will be different and the same.
Speaker: ah So we're both trusting God for some big things, but it's seeing ah and recognizing and acknowledging those truths help help the process not be full of tension and and fighting.
Speaker: This is a great conversation. It's fun hearing from the third string basis and how he's passing leadership off to the ice climbing ah young buck. hu um And we're going to keep it going, but we're going to do that in the ah the next podcast.
Speaker: And so thanks for listening today. This has been very insightful. We chased down some ah roads that we weren't planning to go on, but we're grateful for how God's leading this. But listen to part two of this episode. We're going to hear more about David's personal relationship with God, what that looks like, and also some more leadership lessons that he's had from 30 years of being president of Cadence International.
Speaker: So thanks and come back and listen to part two.
