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Lessons on Leadership — David Schroeder (Part 2)
31 Plays7 days ago
Building on their dynamic conversation from the previous episode, David Schroeder expands on some of the lessons God taught him over the course of three decades in leadership with Cadence International.
Learn more about Cadence's ministry to the military here: https://cadence.org/
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Transcript
Introduction to In Cadence Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to In Cadence, where we talk about what it looks like to share the gospel in our lives with the military community. Join us as we talk about what God is doing in the lives of our service members and how we can be a part it.
David Schroeder's Leadership Journey
00:00:23
Speaker
Hey, welcome back to the Incadence podcast. We're continuing our conversation with David Schroeder, president of Cadence for the last 30 years and gleaning some of the wisdom and the experience and the story of his leadership and this new podcast room, a space that we get to sit and have these conversations.
00:00:46
Speaker
really exciting and challenging conversations that hopefully will continue to move us and the military community and the community of cadence closer to Jesus. um David, it's good to have you back.
00:00:59
Speaker
Thanks. Enjoyed the first one. Looking forward to what's going to happen in the next few minutes. Yeah, we david reference David referenced this room we're sitting in, which is nobody else gets to see it.
00:01:10
Speaker
ah But even as we prayed before we started recording, we just prayed for it to be sacred ground, to be hallowed ground. And the fact that the Holy Spirit is with us wherever we go, we're grateful for that.
00:01:23
Speaker
And David, we're curious, just as you think back to being a part of Cadence for several decades and being president for 30 years, how would you describe your relationship
Faith, Doubt, and Trusting God
00:01:36
Speaker
with God? Is it something that has changed a lot? Is it there's parts of it that have remained the same?
00:01:43
Speaker
Just as you look back and even look at now, how would you describe your relationship with God? Yeah, I think that's probably the most important question.
00:01:54
Speaker
And in some ways for me, one of the more challenging ones to answer. And i don't know all the reasons why that is true. i think it's had both a consistency to it and it's also changed significantly over the years.
Challenges in Leadership
00:02:10
Speaker
And I think the consistent part is think i um I've just since, especially since God got a hold of my life and led me to Multnomah and just opened the path of life and ministry. I've just, I just have loved him deeply and I've never wavered from that love. I've gone through seasons of tremendous doubt.
00:02:34
Speaker
And I love that part in the great commission before they're commissioned and some doubted. Those are my favorite three words because that's been the story of my life. And and again, those moments like,
00:02:45
Speaker
Faith is faith until it's not. It's like the first Peter passage about the fire and our faith emerging. It's like what is true emerges and the rest is burnt.
00:02:57
Speaker
And I think all people suffer and i it's not wise to compare suffering, but in leadership, there's a unique kind of suffering that comes from um the weight of responsibility, that sense that um people are looking for answers. I know
Creating a Diverse Leadership Environment
00:03:16
Speaker
in my earlier years, I felt more pressure to have the answers. Like on the leader show, I should have the answer. I should, I should be the one to figure this out. And I think it took me a while to realize as Liz Wiseman says, it's, you know, it's, it's the room.
00:03:32
Speaker
What's the quote? The genius is the room. The genius is the room. And that God really made us to, to have a diversity of people around the table, bringing in various perspectives and experiences.
00:03:45
Speaker
And that there are some decisions and answers and trajectories that can only be discovered there. And that my job as the leader is to create the environment where that's going to happen.
00:03:56
Speaker
And, um And I think all of our walks with the Lord impact how we go about that. And for me, early on, i had that young, you know, trust God, let's do it kind of energy and faith.
The Joys and Challenges of Faith in Leadership
00:04:13
Speaker
I've always had a very, I'm ah an emotionally sensitive person. So I've always had that kind of relationship with the Lord.
00:04:20
Speaker
um I literally well go out at night and put on worship and dance to the Lord like David did. I have that kind of joy in my relationship with the Lord.
00:04:31
Speaker
And then the suffering comes and the challenges come or the seasons of life come and and those get ah challenged. And ah so and the doubts emerge or the questions or the parts of my heart that I thought were completely settled on trusting God. And then I realized, actually, I'm not.
00:04:50
Speaker
you Or people go through horrific suffering that I love. And it again, it gets uncovered. I think I'm in a season of settledness and of peace, but I'm i'm facing a whole new chapter as a 63-year-old.
00:05:08
Speaker
And that whole new chapter is gonna require a whole new level of faith. In some ways, this leadership is familiar and I understand it and I'm comfortable with it, even though it's constant disruption and challenge.
Vulnerability in Leadership
00:05:21
Speaker
And now I'm going into whole new season in my sixties where we feel like we have a lot of ministry left, a lot to give. We don't know what it's gonna be and how it's gonna be supported. Bummer, I feel in my relationship with the Lord, this settled peace um And that deep love, that love has just deepened, just like in my marriage to Joyce after 38 years.
00:05:42
Speaker
It's very familiar. It's still passionate, but it's a settled friendship that is just so solid. And that's how i relate to the Lord in this season currently. It's so strong. And it's so, like you said, it is the most important question. And And so many of these things we've talked about together already and in our last podcast, but, and even now these aren't things you can fake.
00:06:09
Speaker
Like to have a solid relationship with Jesus is it's one thing to say, but I've seen you live it. I've seen you share it. seen you call other people back to the Lord in the midst of difficult circumstances, because that's where you need to go and you invite people to join you in it. It's not, it's not a,
00:06:29
Speaker
outward declaration of, well, this is what we should do. It's leadership by example, servant leadership saying, this is where I'm going. And I hope you join me because this is
Relational Leadership
00:06:40
Speaker
where we have to go. So we lead God's people. um i I see that.
00:06:45
Speaker
Thanks. I like the, you said you were talking about the quote, the genius is the room, but you had a subtle little thing in there. You said it is your role as the leader to create the environment for the room. Right.
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah. How do you intentionally think about that? Yeah, that's a that's a great point. I think some of that comes back to what we've been talking about. I mean, the best ideas come from people who are in the healthiest relationships.
00:07:15
Speaker
Because there's trust, you can speak your mind. you don't you're not worried about repercussions. There's a sense of safety. um And Liz Weissman also talks about brainstorming inside the box, which is I really love that because yes, outside the box, what we dream we whiteboard, we flip chart we there's, you know, God, what do you want to do? But inside the box is all the all the scriptures that call us to gratefulness to to celebration to encouragement.
00:07:45
Speaker
And when you when you brainstorm inside the box, those are, okay, what has God given us? So we're not like the teenagers always asking God for what we don't have, because that's somehow leadership.
00:07:58
Speaker
I think leadership is also saying, God, what have you given us? Who have you given us? um What are you doing amongst us? And, you know, Henry Blackaby kind of helped us think about that way a little bit more. But um it's the idea that, let's whether the weather you're looking at what God has given and saying, okay, what do you want to use from what's already here to expand your kingdom?
Maintaining Intimacy with God in Leadership
00:08:23
Speaker
Or it's dreaming of things that are just outside our comfortability and that are bigger than us. Either of those take relationships that are secure, that there's freedom.
00:08:38
Speaker
And ah you guys know I haven't done that perfectly because i'm I'm a creative, but I'm also a guardian and a structured person. And I have 30 years experience. So I'm like, my head can just click like that ain't going to work. That ain't going to work. That ain't going to work. Now, hopefully that's not coming out of my mouth because that stifles the creativity to get to what, whatever it is that God's leading us to. You said it to me much more gently than that. Yeah, good. I guess.
00:09:08
Speaker
And I, only I know how much I thought it and never said it and And, and that's good. That's restraint on my part, because, and and the the room, if it's healthy, there can be push back as we've had against that or against a pace that is too slow driven by fear rather than by wisdom and love. And so I think it really, it comes down to relationships.
00:09:35
Speaker
And then that's the atmosphere, just like the atmosphere in our ministries that produces fruit. That's the atmosphere that produces the best ideas, the best decisions, the most cohesive ones ah that are going to benefit the military communities around the world.
00:09:49
Speaker
Ultimately. Thank you. Thanks. That's good. As we think about intimacy with God, um i because I've gotten to be a part of your inner circle, I know there have been seasons in your leadership where the level of intimacy with God isn't as deep as it is at others.
00:10:08
Speaker
And my guess is on leadership podcast, that doesn't get talked about too much. It's for a leader who's not feeling as intimate with God as maybe he has before, she has before, she wants to, or as you think back to some of those seasons, what would you say to the leader who's right now in a season where the intimacy levels, it's just not there for whatever reason, what would you say to that leader?
00:10:37
Speaker
Hmm. Well, one, I would say, conventional wisdom is to keep that to yourself because the leader shouldn't be weak. The leader is the one who has faith. The leader is the one who is trusting God for the next mountain.
00:10:55
Speaker
And I'm not saying, you know, podcast that to the whole world, but I am saying that if you haven't developed the relationships around you at some level of intimacy, because conventional wisdom is don't be vulnerable with those you're leading.
00:11:13
Speaker
because that'll bite you in the long run. And yet I can't get away from how Jesus led, how Paul led, how all of really our scriptural leaders led and the kind of relationships they had around them and the vulnerability that existed there. I think that's what we have in our ELT.
00:11:32
Speaker
And yeah, that could be dangerous. You guys could use my struggle times against me, but you haven't and you don't because I've given you permission to have those as well.
00:11:45
Speaker
And we have walked through those together. So I think the first thing I would say to a leader, if you're in that place is, um yes, outside your organization, be completely vulnerable. You got to be in fellowship in the light with somebody, with your spouse, with your close friends. They need to know what's truly going on. But I'm also encouraging that with the people around you, you have an opportunity, if you haven't,
00:12:11
Speaker
to create
Balancing Vulnerability and Leadership
00:12:12
Speaker
permission with the people that are working around you for them to be human, because you'll be surprised what they're struggling with and that they're afraid to tell you because they don't want to lose their job or they don't want to ah you to think less of them.
00:12:24
Speaker
And it's an opportunity to open up that light. You have to do that with discretion and appropriateness. But I know for me, those times where I have just been usually induced by incredible fatigue and exhaustion and overwork and those kinds of things.
00:12:41
Speaker
up That's when I've relied on your faith, on Natalie's faith, on Paul's faith, on those around me. It's like I borrowed off of you guys. and Natalie during those times, because that's what communities do. That's what friends do. That's what soldiers should do.
00:12:59
Speaker
Jonathan's armor bearer. I just love that passage. Do what's in your heart to do. I have you. i have your back, heart and soul, heart and soul. And so I think those moments, those seasons are normal.
00:13:13
Speaker
They're very challenging. I have had seasons where I have shared with the whole organization because it was appropriate for them to know the struggle their leader was going through in in a circumstance or a relationship. A lot of times that doesn't take place. It only happens here, but it also has happened with the board.
00:13:30
Speaker
Because I've believed if we're going to live in transformative relationships throughout the organization, that should be true with the board yesterday. I had lunch with one of the board members yesterday, and he was just saying without prompting, the board is a safe place for me to share my life and to pray with people.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's not all business. It's relationship. And I think it's happened there as well with intentionality and with modeling. And so there's a couple of things that come to my mind on those seasons and that they won't last.
00:14:00
Speaker
yeah If they do last, you might have to make a change. Maybe it's context, maybe it's other circumstance, but generally you'll get through them.
00:14:12
Speaker
Thanks. That's great. In reference to ELT, that's the executive leadership team here at Cadence. And I've gotten to experience that, but even you're leading up to the board of directors.
00:14:26
Speaker
And I'm guessing that's ah quite a different feel for our board of directors, some of whom are on different boards. Right. And this might be the board where they get actually to be safe and relational and prayerful and...
00:14:41
Speaker
yeah and i've gotten to sit in on parts of those meetings and see that so yeah it's i again i think the best decisions the the most productive decisions for the organization are going to come from healthy relationships and so i don't think boards tend to think about that quite as much because of the they're governing their volunteers they see each other a few times a year But there are people and they're hungry for it. And sometimes it's amazing the intimacy you can have with someone you see once or twice a year.
00:15:13
Speaker
If you really believe it can happen and you're willing to be a little vulnerable. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's so easy for us as leaders to think about how do we facilitate that for other people, but not participate in in ourselves and that it actually like we're talking here, goes upward through the organization, up through the senior leadership and board of directors, and then down through our staff and the people that they serve in their communities and the military.
00:15:42
Speaker
uh and their families that we serve that that we're we're facilitating that space uh both directions and that we participate in it um that creates something that i think we all desire um but we probably have a tendency to be reserved in opening our lives one way or the other and so like you said with discretion with wisdom but with a commitment to that vulnerability. yeah therere There's health, there's life to be found in that. And I think what we were designed for in Christian community.
00:16:15
Speaker
um Can I just add one thing to that? And just there are liabilities to it. There's risk to it. yeah And one of them is when you have to make a hard decision as a leader about one of your leaders that is one of your best friends now because of the way you've been living in leadership.
00:16:31
Speaker
And, and I'm not speaking to any current relationships, but I've had to make hard decisions. And that really tested. ah this this idea that we can be this close.
00:16:42
Speaker
And ultimately, those i wouldn't trade it. it made It made those decisions more challenging, but also because of everything that was there in the relationship, it also made it, I think, more healthy.
Holistic Leadership and Influential Traits
00:16:56
Speaker
It wasn't just a power move from the president to to this person, but it was a dialogue and a conversation that still ended up with the result. That was challenging. um So there are liabilities to this, but I just can't get away from the triune God all the way through scripture to us and to what heaven's going to be like. This is how we're called to live um with wisdom and with appropriateness. But if we don't have this, I think a lot of leadership teams, boards don't have the most important thing.
00:17:31
Speaker
So as we've talked about all of these things and the things that have shaped your leadership, your practices, what leadership culture you've developed around you looking now externally and maybe not, but looking outward a little bit, who are some leaders that you admire and why? what What do you admire about them? How has that shaped you?
00:17:55
Speaker
I admire the leaders I'm around that I've worked with, including our HQ team, you know, um You guys know that i I like to think about leadership in a holistic way versus a little less positionally then than it might be talked about.
00:18:12
Speaker
On that cadence, we have a definition of leadership. Let's see if I can quote it after all this time of working on it. Leadership is loving influence for the good of another with movement towards a worthy outcome.
00:18:26
Speaker
Leadership is loving influence. So it's personal. It's a professional. It can be positional. But it's all of us living out the great commandment on behalf of the Great Commission, whatever context we're in. Sometimes that's positions.
00:18:40
Speaker
Sometimes that's roles. and But it's life. it's life. I'm watching my daughter, Kyrie love her two-year-old toddler. They were here yesterday upstairs. I'm like, wow, that what she is doing, the thousands of decisions she's making with him every day, that's exercising loving influence for the good of another with movement towards worthy outcomes, which ah currently is our rephrasing of vision, our rephrasing of, of, you know, just goals and objectives, worthy outcomes. Um,
00:19:16
Speaker
I love that because it's fresh and it helps us think about the future in a fresh way. i just think like here at our headquarters and our organization, i just admire people who are out exercising loving influence for the cause of others, ah the good of others and worthy outcomes. And the worthy outcomes are the kingdom of God. And the kingdom of God is, it's what gives us purpose. It's what gives us identity. is what bonds us.
00:19:46
Speaker
ah One of my favorite leaders was, was he's in heaven now, Dick Patty, my wife's dad, one of the founders of Cadence, one of the presidents of Cadence.
00:19:58
Speaker
um And one way, some reason that I admire him is is because he's the exact opposite kind of leader of me. His EQ was not very high. IQ, his intelligence was very high. And I and i have always stated humbly and proudly than I am of average intelligence.
00:20:17
Speaker
And while that's a detriment, it's also been a great gift because it's forced me to towards wisdom because I didn't have the brilliance to remember all the stuff we're talking about.
00:20:31
Speaker
But I love having brilliant people around me and and Dick was just so brilliant and creative and visionary and a risk taker and just like all our founders. And I just those aren't natural strengths for me. So when I experience those in the leader, they challenge me, but they also i enjoy them um because i I see the hand of God in that kind of leadership.
00:20:54
Speaker
And then I would just also say. Probably the leader i admire the most is Joyce, my wife. because I've walked with her daily for 38 years and I've watched her live out Philippians 2 in just significant ways in every context and relationship.
Key Leadership Traits: Integrity and Humility
00:21:12
Speaker
Wherever she goes, there is this life of Jesus pouring out for the good of others towards worthy outcomes.
00:21:18
Speaker
Her life has influenced so many and I just admire how she lives in that way. Thinking about those leaders or just leadership in general,
00:21:30
Speaker
Well, not quite calling them non-negotiables, but are there any leadership traits that are just top tier for you when you're looking for either bringing someone onto a leadership team or you're just looking at leaders that you admire? I'll read you a couple of scriptures that relate to that. One is Proverbs 4.23.
00:21:53
Speaker
Above all else, guard your heart. For everything you do flows from it. I care so much about a leader's heart. Everything flows from it. So what is in our hearts? and all of our hearts are full of redemption and love, Christ transformation, his heart, his mind, all the good, the fruit of the spirit.
00:22:20
Speaker
And then in our hearts are sinful tendencies, our insecurities, the things we don't recognize are influencing us, our motives, our history, our ambitions, our need for recognition or attention or success, all the things that actually can derail a leader because they're in the heart and they're not in these kind of relationships where there's the opportunity for them to be lovingly exposed and processed and really for grace to flood that area because that's what that's what heals those parts in us that are broken.
00:22:59
Speaker
um If they're hidden, they do their work and it's negative. um And then my favorite leadership verses, because probably the name, but also the character, Psalm 78 about David.
00:23:11
Speaker
He chose David his servant and took him from the sheep pens. From tending the sheep, he brought him to be the shepherd of his people, Jacob of Israel, his inheritance. And David shepherded them with integrity of heart and skillful hands. He led them.
00:23:26
Speaker
So that last verse, number one, he shepherded them, which is you know a primary metaphor for all of us as Christian leaders in scripture. We look at the shepherds, we look at Jesus, the great shepherd, and we see our mandate.
00:23:40
Speaker
But he did it with integrity of heart. So obviously a non-negotiable for me is integrity, humility, and other-centeredness at the core of a person. Because if those aren't there, people around you will feel it. It'll impact them.
00:23:56
Speaker
It won't feel like it's for them and for the cause. And for them and for the cause don't always go together, as we know. And those are hard decisions, but a lot of times they do.
00:24:07
Speaker
Because the Great Commission is people walking with God and making a difference in our organization through the Great Commandment. um So the heart piece is just, I think where I've really been challenged would be where there are heart issues that were unrecognized or um the an unwillingness, or it's not the right time to look at those. And my issues, my insecurities, my fears, my anxieties, um I have the same standard for myself.
00:24:40
Speaker
And we tend to think the best of our own motives and question others. But we need people that are walking close enough with us to challenge those very things about ourselves. And I look for that in leaders.
00:24:53
Speaker
I wouldn't have you two strong leaders on my team and have recruited and waited years for you guys to get here if I didn't want that kind of atmosphere of both love and grace and challenge and the diversity of leadership, how important that is for decision making and for leadership and then skillful hands, he led them.
00:25:18
Speaker
a lot of leadership skills can be learned. So if someone's teachable, then the leadership pieces can come. There are natural giftings in people and I look for those spiritual gifts of leadership, but a lot of leadership skill can be taught and learned.
Personal Reflections and Conclusion
00:25:36
Speaker
that's easier than the other side of the heart pieces. So that's, I would say it's the heart pieces first and then the skill second. ah One last question for you. yeah um If you could choose to see live in person, any band, past or present, in concert,
00:25:56
Speaker
Who are you going to? And this is one of David's favorite things to do right now is go see bands ah in concert whenever he can, wherever he can. Yeah, it's so fun. I just love I think this has always been true in my life. I i just love being out with people who don't yet know Christ.
00:26:16
Speaker
And our lives can get really insulated and that we, you know, we don't have that many connections. And when our kids were in school and they were in public school and I was coaching Joyce was subbing, you know, we had not yet believers all around us all the time.
00:26:32
Speaker
And there's just something about for me that it just takes me to the gospel and its preciousness and how I want to live it. And so there's something I love great music. I love the concert experience. It's it's relatively new to me. um and And I'm not going to Christian concerts, but I have been to a couple and they're wonderful too.
00:26:53
Speaker
But it's I'm looking to be around unbelievers and to connect and So I've seen a lot of great bands like the Rolling Stones and Queen and, you know, a lot of the classic, classic rock bands and some country western bands that I won't admit on air but that I loved. But I think Bruce Springsteen is on the bucket list. And I don't know if it'll ever happen, but there's there's something about him and his music that I'd love to experience.
00:27:26
Speaker
The boss. The boss. Yeah. That's great. Well, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thanks for these questions and the interaction. ah it feels very normal and natural because we live and work in leadership and these these things are a part of our lives and we've been learning and growing them together and you've impacted my life just as much as I think I've impacted yours. I'm just grateful for it.
00:27:51
Speaker
It's fun to talk about. Agreed. Absolutely. Well, thanks for again for being here. There's a rich history and a story, and I think that's true for all of us as we walk with Jesus. There are deeper waters than most seas. So thanks for taking us on that journey,
00:28:09
Speaker
David.
00:28:15
Speaker
Cue outro music. boooo
00:28:20
Speaker
tu two do boo Come on third basis. Boom. but she bomb bu yeah dot da da And that's a wrap. see see how we do so easy