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Nicholas Tamagna
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Guest host Kinneret Ely interviews opera star Nicholas Tamagna
Nicholas Tamagna’s meteoric rise in recent years has made him one of the world’s most fascinating alto voices. Highlights of the last few seasons were undoubtedly his interpretation of Ermano in the award-winning CD recording of Gismondo, re di Polonia (Leonardo Vinci) on the Parnassus label and its extensive concert tour, his MET debut in March 2020 in Sir David’s McVicar’s re-visited production of Händel’s Agrippina as Narciso, at the side of Joyce DiDonato, Harry Bicket, Kate Lindsey and Brenda Rae as well as the worldwide cinema broadcast of the performance and his spectacular interpretation of the Händel roles Ruggiero in Alcina and Silvio in Il Pastor Fido at the Händel Festival in Halle, Tolomeo in Giulio Cesare in Egitto at the Göttingen Händel Festival, and most recently his debut at Bayreuth Baroque 2022 as Timagene in the highly-acclaimed production of Vinci’s Alessandro nell’Indie from Max Emanuel Cenčić, at the side of Bruno de Sà, Franco Fagioli, and Jake Arditti. In future seasons, he will be heard at such prestigious houses as San Francisco Opera, Israeli National Opera in Tel Aviv, Theater an der Wien in Vienna, Austria, Pinchgut Opera in Sydney, Australia, and Bayreuth Baroque.
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Transcript
Introduction and Key Guests
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Valente. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello, this is something rather than nothing. I'm Canary Tealy and I'm guest hosting for Ken for today. As soon as he invited me to guest host this episode, I knew I wanted to invite Nicholas Tamania onto the show and I'm so excited to introduce him to you all.
00:00:36
Speaker
Mikulistamanya has risen meteorically in recent years and is now one of the world's most fascinating alto singers.
Nicholas Tamania's Career and Upcoming Projects
00:00:46
Speaker
Highlights of recent seasons have undoubtedly included his Metropolitan Opera debut in 2020 as Marchesel in Kendall's Agritina alongside Joyce DiDonato,
00:00:59
Speaker
Maestro Harry Biggett, Kate Lindsay and Brenda Ray, and the performance was broadcast in cinemas worldwide. Also, the role of Colinesso in Handel's Ariodante at the Israeli Opera, participation as Ermano in the multi-award winning CD recording Gismondo, Redi Colonia,
00:01:22
Speaker
the opera by Leonardo Vinci on the Parnassus label, and extensive concert touring. His Bayreuth Baroque debut as Tima Jene in Vinci's Alessandro Nellindie, and his spectacular interpretations of the Handel Rolls Ruggiero in Alcina, at the Hale Handel Festival, and Tolomeo in Giulio Cesare at the Göttingen Handel Festival, and at the Netherlands Reiselpera.
00:01:52
Speaker
In the 2023-2024 season, the countertenor's outstanding projects include the role of refugee in a new production of The Flight at the Stadt's Te Ata Oldburg, the title role of Orfeo in Gux Orfeo et De Oridice at the Israeli Opera, his San Francisco Opera debut as Armino in Handelspartenope,
00:02:18
Speaker
the role of Kazimiro in Caldara's Il Venteslau as a tour project and CD recording and many more.
Nicholas Tamania's Artistic Origins and Influences
00:02:27
Speaker
So Nicholas, I'm so excited to have you on the show and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so anyway, let's dig right in. I have so much I want to ask you and I will launch right in and ask, what are your earliest memories of the arts and performing?
00:02:45
Speaker
Okay, well, it's actually been a part of my life since before I even came out of the womb. I'm pretty sure about that. My mother was actually a singer, continues to be a singer, but doesn't do it so much professionally anymore. But most of my childhood was traveling on tour with her.
00:03:05
Speaker
She and her sisters were basically a cover band. They did pop rock music and I traveled with them in a big blue bus, sort of a la Partridge family, if anyone knows that show from the 70s.
00:03:20
Speaker
And I was a little band rug rat basically. So I was already on the tour life at a very young age and was exposed to the arts in this sense, watching my mother and my aunts perform.
00:03:37
Speaker
And it was kind of a family operation. My father also did a bit of the booking and helped with the sound a bit in the back, with the engineering of the sound. My uncle, who married my aunt, was a drummer for a period in the band.
00:03:55
Speaker
I was surrounded in this kind of atmosphere from a very, very young age. And my mother was pregnant when she was still on tour. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I mean, it's been it's probably been part of my whole life in a way. But I, you know, of course, then
00:04:14
Speaker
was so incredibly inspired by that as a kid that I also wanted to perform. And I guess from a very young age, I studied instruments. I studied clarinet. I studied piano in school. I did all of the theater groups and the plays, both locally, like smaller professional outfits, and also in the school. I tried out for lots of things.
00:04:42
Speaker
you know and sometimes got work and one of the first biggest roles I ever had was Oliver in Oliver. So I did a lot of musical theater as a kid and so got exposed to that very young and was luckily part of a high school that really kind of
00:05:05
Speaker
promoted that you know and we had a we had a really good crop of talent in my in my class singers dancers some of them still continue to do that to this day went on to do it professionally even if they maybe don't do it anymore they did for a time and um yeah so you know i was very lucky and you know i guess also growing up in new york
00:05:27
Speaker
uh is also a really good place for somebody who eventually becomes an artist because you're from a young age able to go to so much culturally um and i was lucky that i had that advantage that i had a family that recognized that interest
00:05:42
Speaker
you know, brought me to see those things and that we had the means to do it. And, you know, so I, you know, although we didn't, we're in a family that had a lot of money, but there was always money for, you know, cultural events and enjoying life that way. So, and appreciating the arts. So I, you know, I kind of lucked out in all of that, that I had all these experiences from very young.
00:06:08
Speaker
And yeah, and I studied, of course, did a lot of singing. I didn't really officially study till I got into university, but at a young age, I was already singing and getting sort of training through the small community theater and theater works I was doing in the school with the teachers and mentors I had in the school who were all amazing. When I think back, not everyone has that luxury of having such great people.
00:06:38
Speaker
No, that is so special to have that incredible mentorship. And by the way, I had a bit of a reaction when you mentioned Oliver, because in high school, I was in a production of Oliver, so it was just so uncanny that we both were. Of course. Of course, right. Yeah. So I guess, I mean, you partially answered this next question, but I will ask you anyway. I find it so fascinating. When and how did you know you were going into the arts?
00:07:08
Speaker
I mean it's weird because I can't remember a time when I wasn't thinking that I was going into the arts I think because it was sort of a family business I sort of just assumed that was always going to be the way it was going to go. I didn't really think about it in any other way. I think the thing that evolved over time was
00:07:27
Speaker
in what capacity. I think because I just loved so many aspects of the performing arts and had training and had experiences and had exposure to various aspects of the performing arts that I really didn't know where I would land. I could have went the direction of just being a straight actor, except that I had the musical abilities.
00:07:54
Speaker
So I was pursuing also, even though I did some straight acting, I did some plays and stuff like that too when I was younger. But I ended up playing piano from a very young age, then sort of quit piano because I didn't want to practice.
00:08:11
Speaker
at that age, sometimes it becomes like that. And my father kind of gave me an ultimatum that either I was going to practice or he was going to stop the lessons. And I took a little bit of a break from that. But in the break, I actually then discovered that I really liked playing in a less structured way than like studying Chopin Bach and whatever, even though that was something that I did.
00:08:35
Speaker
Um, and I found that I was really good at improvising with court charts. So, you know, because I really liked, uh, being, uh, doing Broadway and that sort of thing, it sort of lended itself to that. And I actually, for a period in high school,
00:08:51
Speaker
did some and early 20s, I did some cabaret work as a pianist. Oh, wow. So I was playing for singer friends of mine, and we did a few shows that way. And so I had some experience with doing that as well being kind of a musical director, as it were.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I did that for many years also as when I was still in university. In the summers I would teach musical theatre programs for kids, usually ranging from like 14 to 18. And I did this one program for many summers on end.
00:09:29
Speaker
And there I would have to improvise and play the show at the end that they would actually co-create, the students would create and use music from pre-existing shows. And I'd have to help them decide what music to pull from what show that fit the scenario that they were creating the scene.
00:09:45
Speaker
So I had a lot of experience with also creating shows as well. And studied a little bit also on my own some composition, though I never really went to pursuing that full time. But it's interesting because now that's coming around now later.
00:10:04
Speaker
in my career where I might have some opportunities to do some composing and working more in the creative ends
Discovering the Countertenor Voice
00:10:11
Speaker
of things. So, you know, it's funny, but while all of these things kind of simultaneously existed, you know, acting, studying piano,
00:10:21
Speaker
first going to university as a classical pianist, but then switching to voice, having studied the clarinet, also at a young age, you know, having done some dance, a little bit of film, but not much. So I kind of had my experiences sort of all over the map. And somehow in the end, I landed being an opera singer mostly full time.
00:10:46
Speaker
But I think it more had to do with the fact that it kind of encompassed so many of my interests, opera. I think that was why I ended up landing in that sphere more than anything else. I mean, I felt I could bring a lot to it as an actor that maybe isn't so obvious. Most people don't come to it from that angle, but I did because I had more of that experience younger.
00:11:12
Speaker
And I kind of found my niche in Baroque music because I loved the element of how this music is basically based on dance forms, which I think feeds my sensibility for wanting that kind of a form to music because I grew up basically in pop music. And I feel like when we think of Baroque music, even though we don't really think of that, it really was a
00:11:37
Speaker
kind of pop music of its day and it was using popular dance forms that people would recognize. So something about that was already in me in my ear and I like the improvisational element of it with ornamentation.
00:11:52
Speaker
And I think languages and history were also a big source of inspiration and it was an interest of mine. And I think that's why it went then kind of funneled me slowly into this kind of being a Baroque opera singer mostly.
00:12:10
Speaker
But also, I think that maybe is why, you know, there's always these kinds of extremes, right? There's the contemporary and the Baroque usually. For us as countertenors, we kind of live in both extremes. And I think that came out of that also because of the variety of experiences I had. It also lends itself really well to doing more contemporary works.
00:12:33
Speaker
where people want you to be more than just a singer. So I think having all of those elements is kind of what drove me then eventually to this.
00:12:43
Speaker
But that's absolutely incredible. And also just so wonderful how all of these sorts of elements from your earlier years sort of tied together into the opera existence. And I want to launch into that a little bit just because it's not a given necessarily that all of these sorts of threads, all of these elements would eventually lead to becoming an opera singer. So I was wondering if you could speak a little bit
00:13:10
Speaker
as to your journey as a singer, e.g. voice lessons, etc. So like I said, I did do a lot of musical theatre. So singing was already in my background and of course learned a lot growing up with a mother who sang. And so there was a lot that was just sort of
00:13:31
Speaker
a little bit from birth already in my ear, you know. And my mother was always of the band, of the three sisters, she was always the one who was a bit more in tune to like the musical underpinnings, like she was more attuned to like this chord isn't completely
00:13:52
Speaker
in tune or like that it's not this it's that like she even though she didn't really have that training she didn't study piano she didn't do the things that I eventually did but but she could just naturally she had an ear and I think that that then sort of was transferred to me either genetically or it could be just that that because I was exposed to it watching her that I kind of learned it through through kind of absorbing it by watching her and listening and learning but I
00:14:21
Speaker
Eventually, like I said, I studied piano first, went into university first as a pianist. I didn't study voice until I was in my second year at university. For me, I was trying to be safe. I thought at that age,
00:14:41
Speaker
you should really get a degree in teaching because that'll be safer and you have a better chance of maybe having a job that actually can pay the bills. I thought for a brief moment I could be that person but I'm just not somebody that can deny
00:15:03
Speaker
perhaps where my whims are taking me and sometimes I can be a little bit impulsive, but it's also been the thing that's driven me to constantly experiment and find myself in different places and experiences. So I can't say that it's a bad trait that I have, but certainly I did a lot of switching around. I mean, I changed schools multiple times because I was either unhappy or I wasn't getting what I needed or whatever.
00:15:33
Speaker
I eventually landed, but it took a lot of me experimenting to find that way. I would say the only reason that all the threads got woven together was because I was open.
00:15:51
Speaker
to the fact that maybe what you set out to do in the beginning isn't always necessarily what you end up finding is actually your true calling. And I think because I was always open to that changing it allowed me to kind of keep
00:16:10
Speaker
molding and forming into what I eventually became. But I think if I had been too fixed in my ideas about what I should be, what I had to be, what I needed to be doing, perhaps I wouldn't have found my way there. But of course it's a risky thing. Not everybody feels comfortable with living on that kind of an edge all the time.
00:16:31
Speaker
And I got very comfortable with being in that space and continue to be to a certain extent, even though I may get older and more settled in my ideas about what I want out of life and what I want to do.
00:16:46
Speaker
But I still think there's a huge part of me that's constantly thinking and open to the fact that that could change in any minute. And I don't think I'm done evolving. I don't think that me being an opera singer is the last
00:17:04
Speaker
iteration of who I am as a person, as an artist, I think that that will change again. And I'm certainly feeling already things moving within me to change that. So. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, I think that doesn't mean I'm not announcing anything here like I'm not going to be. Right.
00:17:25
Speaker
Ladies and gentlemen, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I definitely have certainly enough contracts ahead of me that I need to keep on that track. But I also noticed that my interests are sort of now starting to break out into other areas as well. So all within the performing arts, all within the creative process, and certainly all still mostly within the operatic world,
00:17:50
Speaker
But I feel that there are other roles I can play. And I've already started to experiment with that a little bit. I've done some directing. I've formed a company here along with other friends in Germany that we're doing a lot of contemporary works. We're opening it up to contracting new
00:18:11
Speaker
composers or commissions, and trying to also create a program to help support singers who want to come to Europe and start a career here. So, you know, there's multiple projects going on side by side, aside from the roles that I'm learning and performing in various places around the world.
00:18:34
Speaker
So I have to constantly keep engaged and busy with all of that. So I find that much more interesting than just kind of staying in the same track all the time.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, it's just really incredible how you've sort of maintained that malleability. And I will say it seems to be working very well for you. I think that's a key. I think if I had to give any young artist basically any kind of advice, I think it's that don't get too fixed in your ideas of who you are, because I think that can change.
00:19:14
Speaker
And sometimes if you're not open to it, you'll miss opportunities. So there's a lot, I think that the reason that I came to where I am is because I was open to the fact that I could be something else at any moment. I mean, one very big one is that that changed kind of earlier on, but not as early as maybe I would have wished, is that I became a countertenor. I mean, that came quite late for me.
00:19:44
Speaker
sometimes having just a vocal change is a complete change of identity. So, you know, sometimes for the better, in my case, that was so, but in a lot of times it can be a rough road, you know, because it's going against perhaps ideas that you already had of yourself. I was very lucky in that way that when I made that switch, it felt more like me than what I was before that. So that is more confirming and affirming than the opposite.
00:20:14
Speaker
I would say so. No, and I was actually just going to ask you about that sort of launch into that, which is that you mentioned to me before that, you know, and I mean earlier a few years back, that you found your voice as a countertenor fairly late, I should say by opera standards. And for those who, so first of all, for those listening who don't know, countertenors are male singers who frequently sing in the falsetto.
00:20:40
Speaker
So anyway, Nicholas, tell us about your journey into specifically the countertenor of voice type. Yeah. So, you know, I kind of had a long period where I was really just sort of without a very specific fach that you could say. I didn't really know what my voice type was, my fach, as we say. And
00:21:07
Speaker
And it took me a long time to kind of figure that out because, you know, when I was younger, of course, I did musical theater, which, you know, standard musical theater, a lot of it sits in the kind of Barry tenor range. So it's sort of like baritone tenor for those listening in. Yeah. So there's not this kind of specificity of vocal type like there may be in more of the operatic repertoire.
00:21:31
Speaker
And so I was doing a lot of stuff where I was stretching my voice which of course malleability again this topic it's great, but it also Made it difficult for me to sort of identify with what it is that I needed to hone in on technically with my voice given what I actually am, you know and Part of you know doing classical voice study is finding efficiency in the voice efficiency in the use of your body and and and a kind of
00:21:59
Speaker
refining of tone that meets a certain kind of traditional standard, right? So there's a difference in that versus just trying to sing with perhaps what's your natural voice in a more of a either pop or folk setting or trying to fit a tradition of musical theater, which may call for certain things in the voice that
00:22:21
Speaker
either are innate to you or are not you know so so you know it's kind of depends where you land how you train your voice and it took me a long time to kind of figure out what i was you know i i did a lot of musical theater like i said but i was never your traditional what i would say 21st century musical theater singer the belting and everything yeah i was not going to be able to do that like that that's not something my voice
00:22:48
Speaker
liked to do naturally. I think it would have been a very hard technical road for me if I wanted to become that. And it never felt, yeah, I've always been going for the path of least resistance when it came to that. Like, I don't want to go down a path that's going to take too much out of me to try to figure out how to do it. You know, I want to go with something that feels natural to me so that I can already begin to hone
00:23:14
Speaker
the more kind of expressive artistic elements as opposed to having to get all of the basics that just don't function in my voice in a natural way. So for me, musical theater didn't feel like an option because my options were limited in that repertoire. There's not a ton of singers that can just sing standard Rodgers and Hammerstop.
00:23:41
Speaker
I was too old-fashioned in my way of singing, which I think became, that was a lot to do with also my upbringing. I grew up with a grandfather who played all the standards, basically, and I learned from him to sing that music by watching all the old movies from the 30s and 40s and 50s. So that was already in my voice, in my ear, right?
00:24:05
Speaker
So that would have been difficult for me to go into a more contemporary musical theater route. I found I was singing, of course, in university. A lot of times the programs that you do, especially in America, they will funnel you more towards a classical genre. And so I had to learn that. That wasn't something that was maybe necessarily so natural or so innate, but it wasn't also so far away from
00:24:29
Speaker
standard musical theater, which was also very much based on operatic, operetta, singing, you know, if you look through the history, there wasn't so far away from that. So that makes sense that then my ear, my voice, my body could attune to that better. And
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, and then, you know, while I was in university, I kind of discovered that. Of course, you know, nowadays, maybe there's a little bit more openness to the idea of what a countertenor is, but at that age and at that time, there wasn't so much that would have led me to being a countertenor. I mean, there were already countertenors on the market, of course. We had, you know, it was already a
00:25:14
Speaker
a voice type, and it had already in the 80s and 90s begun to grow, right? But even by the 2000s, you're talking not very long. It hadn't been at that point, maybe like 20 years, 30 years that town tenants were really on the market in that way, in an operatic sense.
00:25:34
Speaker
They came out of church traditions and things like that, but it was a different style of singing, and to use it in an operatic way was relatively new, and there were only a couple of generations before me at that point. So you're looking at a relatively new sphere, and most of the teachers that were teaching in the universities at the time wouldn't have really known to push me in that direction, wouldn't have been their first thought. So you're going to teach the voice in the traditional modal sense,
00:26:04
Speaker
Your voice has already changed. It's lowered as a man already who's gone through puberty. So you have to kind of figure out then, what do I do with that voice? You know, am I a barrack? What am I a tenor? And for the beginning, it was more tenor, I think, because I could
00:26:21
Speaker
get into that zone of my voice with some ease but the older I got the lower it got and actually from the beginning it was always that low it was just I kind of learned how to manufacture a higher tenor sound but that didn't make me a tenor so I think you know it got me a little bit tied up in knots as I got into my 20s and eventually I landed with my teacher who I've been with since Alyssa Grimaldi in New York
00:26:48
Speaker
And she helped me tremendously to kind of find my voice. We did study for a full year, you know, and before that I had done a bit more experimenting and found that I was more comfortable in the baritone rage under Susan Gonzales at Hunter College. And she helped me tremendously also, I have to say, before I even landed with Alyssa. But
00:27:12
Speaker
But I still hadn't quite found my way to the countertenor thing. And that only happened when I then was with Alyssa and I guess with her.
00:27:23
Speaker
felt a bit of a freedom to explore that for the first time.
Nicholas's Transition and Mastery of Countertenor Voice
00:27:27
Speaker
I hadn't felt that before that, not because any of the teachers wouldn't have been particularly open to it, just it didn't come up. And it was just my own journey that kind of brought me to that. And at that point, I was already with her. And she was probably one of the best people for that because she was also one of these teachers that's very malleable and open to the idea that
00:27:51
Speaker
maybe she doesn't know what you are and maybe we need to explore that. I came from a lot of studios where I felt a little bit more hemmed in and fixed, I think, especially before Susan, and I had a lot of trouble kind of
00:28:08
Speaker
getting out of that box because I wasn't, I didn't belong in any of those boxes that they tried to put me in. So yeah, Alyssa finally kind of gave me full access to that and then I, you know, I brought it in one day and she kind of, I don't even know what I said, I had no repertoire at that point. I was not a countertenor and I
00:28:29
Speaker
I think I sang La Chocolpiano, which wasn't even appropriate for my voice type. But I could sing it because I knew it. It was in my ear from the movie Farinelli or something. And I think I just sang it on a whim. And she just looked at me in awe. And she was like, I don't know where that voice was for the last year, but that's your voice. And then from there, we just kind of refined it and kept
00:28:58
Speaker
experimenting with it and seeing what it could do and and I had perhaps in some ways some luck because I think that the fact that I had to recycle through so many different voice types before landing at the at the countertenor voice I really kind of know my voice inside and out you know like I know what it's capable of what it's not capable of I kind of got to know
00:29:23
Speaker
my limits and what makes me unique, I guess, as a singer. And so it really gave me a gift in that I could finally hone in on something that was uniquely mine. And I didn't have to try to follow a box or a model
00:29:45
Speaker
that I felt up to that point, I just never quite fit into. And so, yeah, I mean, after changing many schools, many teachers,
00:29:55
Speaker
Finally landing squarely in the countertenor range, I finally felt I had the full palette of colors to play with in the voice that I didn't have before. And I knew what I wanted to hear, what I wanted my voice to do, but couldn't do it. And then when I became a countertenor, suddenly I could just do it. And it was easy. And I was like, oh,
00:30:22
Speaker
This is what I've not been able to do for all this time. And then within that journey, it continues to change. Of course, the older you get, your voice changes. It gets warmer, it gets deeper, it gets bigger sometimes.
00:30:40
Speaker
you know, some things get easier, some things get harder, and you have to continually be able to adapt to that. And I think because all those early years were all about me learning what that is to say yes to change. I'm now also at a sort of moment vocally, I feel, where things are changing, and I'm able to kind of adapt to that. And it feels good that I'm
00:31:06
Speaker
still malleable at this point in my life and in my career. And I think it's really important and I think that's something I would say to singers who are older too, to not get too fixated in an idea of who you are because that's who you were when you were 25.
00:31:23
Speaker
Because that also changes, yeah? So, you know, who I am now at 41 is not the same singer as when I first started as a countertenor at 26, 27. So, you know, recognizing that is important.
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like what you said about your journey sort of finding your countertenor voice, for lack of a better way of putting it, is so special because it's true that when you find... I'm not sure whether to say whether you find your voice or you find your voice at that particular moment in your journey.
00:31:59
Speaker
When it's right it feels easy because you're no longer fighting your body sort of to paraphrase what you said It's like the artistic colors and your ability to express yourself as an artist sort of falls into place because you're not dealing with that element of fighting what your body naturally wants to do Which I think that's just so special and so important. Yeah, and also I think
00:32:22
Speaker
I feel I felt listening to you right now that that element of being able to experiment and be malleable also for voice teachers and not just as singers is so important because I in many ways I'm not in certain ways I'm not sure that your journey is so unusual in that it's very rare for a certain voice to fit a certain box a hundred percent so it takes a lot of sort of experimentation
00:32:48
Speaker
to sort of figure out where one's voice lies and what they do really well and maybe what they do really well at a certain stage. So I'm, you know, so I would say it worked out for you really well.
00:33:00
Speaker
More than really well. And by the way, for those listening who are wondering why I said, wow, when you talked about Hunter College, that's because as Nick, you probably know I went to Hunter College back during my undergrad. So when you said that, I went, wow, first Oliver, now Hunter College. This is a heck of a kindred spirit interview. It's so cool.
00:33:22
Speaker
So I just wanted to explain that. So anyway, sort of my next question, which you touched on this next point a bit. So I mean, you said that, you know, being a countertenor is an especially unusual voice type, you know, when you contrast that to being a soprano or a tenor.
The Role of Countertenors in Opera
00:33:43
Speaker
You know, so I was wondering if you could speak to the unique experience of being a countertenor in the opera world.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely something that's also evolving and changing.
00:33:58
Speaker
It's interesting because most everybody else in the singing world is dealing with a tradition that's, you know, certainly hundreds of years old. And not to say that countertenor singing, certainly the use of this voice, you know, blending voamixt and falsetto and this kind of special color of the voice and usage of the male,
00:34:23
Speaker
vocal folds is nothing new. It's been around for a long, long time, hundreds of years. I mean, if you look at historically, won't go into a whole history lesson here, but it's been historically used in many different ways and facets over time, called different things over time, revered, then despised at many points. And so it's not something that's necessarily new, but in terms of the modern opera world,
00:34:53
Speaker
It's not a voice type that's been around very long in that capacity. So this is a thing that makes it kind of then a unique experience being a countertenor because one of the issues is that we are never going to be standard repertoire singers.
00:35:10
Speaker
One of the biggest problems is, like you said before we started this interview, it's like, you know, anytime anybody has to introduce me, half the titles that they're going to say that I performed or recorded or have done, like nobody's heard of.
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah, so for those who don't know, right before we started recording, I just wanted to check with him, with Nicholas, some of the opera titles before I introduced him to say, is it really this? Is it pronounced this? Because they are very obscure. So it was just so funny. I'm always living in the fringe of, you know, either Baroque and there, of course, there's some standard Baroque things that everybody knows, St. Matthew
00:35:51
Speaker
passion or messiah or whatever like that these are things that we all sing as well but you know of course the things to get highlighted often are the are the unique things that you do in your career and sometimes that tends to be operas and you know works that people have forgotten
00:36:08
Speaker
That's certainly become a big staple of my career, is to unearth things that have never been performed, to recreate works that have been forgotten by composers who are
00:36:23
Speaker
either only known in the fringe or known for only one thing or completely forgotten, often happens as well. And that's a really exciting thing because it's almost like it's new again, you know, because there's really no point of reference half the time. I mean, there's a tradition that we
00:36:42
Speaker
uphold as specialists in the genre. There are things that we understand from our years of experiencing perhaps more well-known works by contemporaries of the same composers, and it isn't so far away from that stylistically.
00:36:57
Speaker
But there are, of course, you start to sing a new composer and you realize this is a different voice. You can't sing Kaldara like it's handle. I mean, it's going to have its own unique thing. But there isn't this huge tradition of many generations and a huge pool of singers who have sung Kaldara's works that we can draw on their wealth of experience.
00:37:20
Speaker
and some knowledge. So, you know, a lot of us who have explored this repertoire are still alive and we're still experimenting and still looking through the works and figuring out how to perform them in a way in this current world. And it's a bridging of this gap of, yeah, there are traditions, there are things we understand from reading treatises about
00:37:43
Speaker
how people thought about how it should be sung, what the taste was in the day. But there's also the taste of the current audience. And there's, you know, no matter how you want to disguise it, and no matter how historically informed you want to perform something, the audience that's sitting in front of you is not the same audience that was sitting in front of the piece 250 years ago. So you can't possibly expect
00:38:09
Speaker
that they're going to be able to absorb the work in the same way that the audience then would have absorbed it. So a lot of times where we have to do that job of bridging the historical understanding of the work, where it sits in its time and its place and its style,
00:38:28
Speaker
and the current audience and the and the breadth of repertoire that's happened from from then until now that influences the current public's ear and expectation so that's a very cool thing as a countertenor that i'm not sure that everybody gets to
00:38:45
Speaker
explore quite so in depth that we are constantly called on to do. So that's a unique experience as a countertenor. From a just clearly business standpoint, it's of course more difficult in a way
00:39:03
Speaker
uh in ways that perhaps are not as difficult for others and that we don't we don't really cover the standard repertoire so you know especially in a place like in America in the United States it's sometimes a little bit more difficult for us to find our footing and our bearings because
00:39:21
Speaker
A lot of companies maybe don't venture into doing this kind of repertoire. That has a lot more to do with the finance model of companies in the United States versus the finance model of companies in Europe or in a country, say like Germany, that's very heavily funded by the government.
00:39:41
Speaker
So there's a little bit more leeway for experimentation that isn't there necessarily in the US market. But, you know, it also has to do with taste, the public that's there, what they expect, what they're listening for. The thing is, whenever I've done Baroque works,
00:39:59
Speaker
in the united states i do find there is a huge public for it and they love it they just don't realize sometimes they love it or they don't realize they're not exposed to it and then they often go wow i didn't i didn't think i'd like that and i actually love that a lot more and if i thought opera was like that all the time i would go all the time like i've gotten that comment quite a lot about the entertainment value of doing baroque works you know so um i i think that it's uh
00:40:26
Speaker
it's unfortunate that it sometimes has that wrap a little bit that it's going to be boring or it's long or it's stoked in this kind of, I don't know, old fashioned way of storytelling or, you know, like sometimes the plots are yes, I get it a little bit silly, a little convoluted. You know, it's a different style of theater, you know, but we don't treat
00:40:53
Speaker
works by, you know, more classic writers, Cervantes or Shakespeare or whatever in that same way. I don't really know why it sometimes gets this reaction, but it does make our job harder, you know, because we are a little bit fighting against a current sometimes, kind of going uphill with gaining public attention and admiration for the kind of things that we find
Exploring Baroque and Contemporary Repertoires
00:41:21
Speaker
that really stoke our interests, but as performers, as countertenors, as Baroque specialists and artists. So there is that element. But we do get to also have the added challenge of doing a lot of contemporary work.
00:41:39
Speaker
So we are also on that frontier of exploring new ways of using the voice, new ways of telling stories, new ways of creating theater, which often puts demands on us that maybe wouldn't be put on somebody who can just sing, you know, three million carbons in a season. And, you know, so I wish, you know, and to that point also,
00:42:04
Speaker
And like you said, you go through my bio and you're like, oh, God, he did this and he did that. And there's so many various things. I don't get to repeat things very often. And that's something that's a little bit unfortunate sometimes. I feel I don't get the opportunity to necessarily do the same roles over and over again the way I'd like.
00:42:26
Speaker
just because the opportunities don't present themselves. You know, and some, some countertenors have had that luck, like, you know, or they would, or they might call it a curse. In the case, I think maybe Christophe Dumont would say it was a curse that he had to do Ptolemaio so many times. Ptolemaio handles Giulio Cesare. Exactly. I think, you know, it's public knowledge that he's like, no more, no more, I don't want to.
00:42:51
Speaker
But he became known for being that, and he did it so many times. But I haven't had that luck in my career in that sense that I get to repeat things quite as often as I'd like. The reason that I say luck is because I think
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I don't want to do 3 million tolomeos, but I do like the idea of being able to revisit something because I think that it creates, then you can go deeper into things that you can't miss. Maybe when you're just learning it for the first time, you know, the first time anybody performs a role, it's exciting. It could be really great already, but it's going to be, I guarantee, a different level of maturity if they get the chance to do it again.
00:43:35
Speaker
And even if they were brilliant at the role the first time, the second, the third, the fourth time will bring elements that they couldn't have possibly brought to it when they did it the first time. And I think that that's true. So these are all things that maybe more standard voices get to.
00:43:57
Speaker
experience or enjoy that we we end up having to uh kind of approach differently um and but likewise as i said there were many things i i mentioned along the way of that that were also advantages that we have that other voice types don't have you know the fact that we are constantly asked to be flexible does create a certain amount of flexibility and and i could even
00:44:24
Speaker
perhaps aimed to say a virtuosity about our artistry that is asked of us that is it does feel at times demanding but it also challenges us to be better artists I think sometimes so I think I'm very lucky that I have those opportunities so yeah everything has its disadvantages and advantages of course but being a countertenor certainly is unique you can't say that it's
00:44:51
Speaker
much like any other voice type. Right, absolutely. And I think that that demand on one's artistry and also on one's technique would serve the more standard repertoire as well. And then for those chances, you know, those chances in which you do get to repeat roles, I remember this is quite a funny anecdote
00:45:11
Speaker
I'd worked on both the roles of Oberto and Altina, you know, from the opera, hand as Altina with Nicholas. And he showed me his score. And it looked like it had been, you know, for like a few lifetimes. So I knew you had like done that role a hundred bajillion times with us. Yes. But like that was one, one of those times in which he did do a role, you know, multiple, multiple, multiple times. He knows that opera like the back of his hand. And by the way, for those lists,
00:45:40
Speaker
For those listening as well, I also agree that Baroque is one of those types of music that people might not necessarily say, I love Baroque because they might not necessarily know what it is. But as soon as I say, hey, do you know, you know, people say, of course, I love it. You know, I love Handel's Messiah.
00:46:01
Speaker
So if you love Handel's Messiah, you would love other Baroque works. Go check them out. And more importantly, check out Nicholas, you know, if he happens to perform near you. So on a related note about Baroque and contemporary repertoire,
00:46:16
Speaker
it sounds like they're actually far more similar artistically than one might think because there's this lack of, for lack of a better way of phrasing this, of historical baggage. You're not dealing to the same degree with, you know, let's say, or let's say, rather than using a female singer, let's say, you know, Pavarotti sang it such and such a way, and you know, Nicola Gedda sang it such and such a way, and you know, kind of dealing with all these almost operatic ghosts who are incredible, but you kind of have their shadow. So I,
00:46:46
Speaker
if I kind of understand it correctly. It's as if as a countertenor you're not dealing with that in the same way. So I was wondering. Yeah, I mean for sure. I mean there's less for you to get compared to. I will say in the standard Baroque stuff because I've you know probably since the
00:47:10
Speaker
You know, I mean, well, since Deller and, you know, even starting in the sixties and seventies, but I would say really in the eighties and nineties, the Baroque repertoire sort of exploded, you know, at that point and then into the two thousands and since then has just exponentially grown and explored so many avenues within the repertoire. But so there are more and more examples and more and more opinions about what the best version of something is, which
00:47:38
Speaker
you know, didn't exist before, but it's still within 100 years. So it's not this huge, huge long tradition that we have with so many reference points. But I definitely think we have a freedom in this repertoire to explore in ways that we wouldn't have in more 19th century style, which just I think because of recording, because of
00:48:06
Speaker
how much more prolifically people wrote about it, people critiqued it. There isn't necessarily as much from that period sometimes with some of these works. They're relatively relegated to the back of some room somewhere where nobody's seen the light of day of this piece. And we barely have any correspondence dealing with what anyone thought of the piece. So there's so little to go on in some cases.
00:48:35
Speaker
Sometimes after much research and unearthing, and that's the amazing job that a lot of music colleges have done in the last, you know, I'd say last 50 to 100 years, we've unearthed so much and learned so much and found more and more of the treaties and opinions about things that help us build a more clearer picture of what exactly is this thing. Because sometimes you look at a work and you go, I don't know how this functions.
00:49:02
Speaker
You know, because we're just so far removed from it, it's become almost foreign to us, this form of entertainment sometimes.
00:49:12
Speaker
But I think that we have that advantage in this repertoire that we can continue to explore. And we're not done yet. And there's a huge amount of left to unearth and within the Baroque repertoire. But I would say it's not only the Baroque repertoire that needs it.
00:49:34
Speaker
I'm not so much in the pre-Baroque, but there's certainly a tremendous amount more to do with that. Medieval and Renaissance music, you know, I have some friends who've made it their work to really explore that stuff. And I, you know, kudos to them that it really works for them also as artists to explore that and perform those works. It doesn't quite fit for my voice. I've done some of that repertoire as well.
00:50:03
Speaker
but I feel like I'm more attuned to that to the 18th century, 17th, late 17th and 18th century works.
00:50:12
Speaker
But I also think that that's true of, as we look further into what has yet to be unearthed and explored, I think that there's going to be a lot more in the next decades of scholarship pertaining to classical works and putting it to practice. I think that that's an era that also has so many forgotten composers. I think, you know, you have your behemoths of the era Mozart and Haydn and all these.
00:50:39
Speaker
But there was so many. And the bridging from the Rococo into the classical, I've done a lot of stuff in that era. I've done some of, you know, Hase and this kind of repertoire, which sort of starts to hint towards
00:50:55
Speaker
the classical era. But there's so much in that. And you're going to start seeing that. I know that from from my friends who are doing the research. I know that there are albums coming out in the next years of this repertoire. I certainly am also one of the proponents that's exploring it. And, you know, and there's a there's a film coming out also of a composer who was a mentor of Mozart, Myslivacek.
00:51:20
Speaker
It's called Il Bohemo. I believe it might have even been released or had at least its viewing, its first showing. But it's sort of an indie film on par with, in terms of its exposure, it'll be a bit like Farinelli was because it's not necessarily in a mainstream
00:51:41
Speaker
setting, but those who follow this kind of biopic films and stuff, that's something to look out for. But this is a repertoire that is going to continue to be explored and needs a lot more scholarship and a lot more exploration and certainly much more practical exploration. And when I say practical, I mean recording, actually performing the works, finding ways to make them viable, performing performed pieces, you know, and give an interpretation of that.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yeah, so that's something that we get to explore. And then, of course, contemporary works is a whole other beast. There you're sometimes dealing directly with the composer. Everybody's got an opinion about what it should be before it's birthed. And you are there to kind of be the conduit, the vessel for everybody's ideas. And that's a completely different milestone for you as an artist that you have to take on.
00:52:36
Speaker
Sometimes it can be extremely exciting, sometimes it can be extremely frustrating. I think one of the advantages of being a primarily Baroque singer is that you have the flexibility of dealing with a repertoire that feels new, but you don't necessarily have
00:52:58
Speaker
the emotional investment of the composer and the creative team that is creating it for the first time on your shoulders. Yeah, it's not as fraught in a way. It's not as fraught in that way.
00:53:14
Speaker
Exactly. I mean, it sounds horrible to say, but it's true. But you don't have quite the pressure. But I feel that the pressure sometimes is also a good thing. And the input that is invaluable, that when you get to work one-on-one with a composer, and I've been very lucky to have things written for me many times,
Collaboration with Composers
00:53:38
Speaker
And that kind of one-on-one is something that we wish we could have with Handel and all these composers of Panera. I wish there's so many times I could ask, why is it this? What is this? Did you mean this? And I'm sure he would have, from all accounts,
00:53:59
Speaker
would have been very difficult to talk to about the things that I want to ask. But still having that opportunity, it doesn't exist anymore. So this is something that we have that ability and we have to not take that for granted when we do contemporary works and not be afraid.
00:54:17
Speaker
to open dialogue, no matter how fraught that might make the process. But that's what makes creating things in that kind of environment exciting. And you have to be willing to confront it. Again, it's the malleable thing. It comes right back to that theme.
00:54:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, since we've dived so much, you know, into the Baroque repertoire and also the modern repertoire and, you know, some of the Baroque repertoire, especially you've introduced me to, and that's been a privilege, like Asa. Yeah, I was wondering if you could please tell us a bit about some of your favorite roles. Oh, well, um,
00:55:02
Speaker
you know it's funny you know people are always like is there a role you want to do or that you haven't done you know for me I always find every role has something new to tell me I guess you know I don't I don't necessarily choose roles because
00:55:18
Speaker
I think I'm that person or even because I think that the music, sometimes I look at it and I go, yeah, that would fit my voice well and that might be a reason for exploring that particular role or that repertoire and going out for it. But I have to say there are many roles that
00:55:39
Speaker
I never thought, I guess maybe in the beginning, that I would be asked to perform so many roles of conflicted heroes or villains or people that clearly have a kind of manic side. I've done a lot of that. And I think maybe in the beginning,
00:56:04
Speaker
I thought maybe that was because I was projecting that for myself. Maybe they thought, like, that's what fits me. I don't know. I don't know whether to be happy that I fit a niche or to be insulted that that's the niche. But they're friends, so I think that, like, I do not get big manic vibes from you. I can tell you that.
00:56:27
Speaker
At least I'm getting that confirmed. Walking down the street and people pick up, you know, manic, you know. No, I'm just kidding. But I am a high energy person, so sometimes it's very difficult for me to play roles.
00:56:44
Speaker
that are very still or very quiet. That's perhaps something that would be a huge challenge for me. It's certainly something the older I get that I'm making my peace with and I'm exploring more and more. I think there were more roles in the past that could have benefited from me exploring that earlier.
00:57:06
Speaker
I think there are, you know, now that I look back, you know, I just did, I did a fabulous production. It required of me to be high energy, but I did a fabulous production of Juio Tezare Astono Mayo with, with, um, uh,
00:57:22
Speaker
with George Petrou at the Göttingen Handelfespiel, and that was wonderful to play this kind of maniacal, extremely evil, almost cartoonish character. I think that's extremely exciting, but if I get the chance to play Tolomeo again,
00:57:43
Speaker
I think it would be interesting to play him from a much quieter place. I think there's something also to be said for finding sometimes villains in a much more, there's something sometimes maybe even more evil about being
00:58:00
Speaker
not showing all your cards in a way. So I think every time you do a role, of course, you find new things. And so that would be the next thing I would hope that would fit the concept of whoever the director is that I get to do that role again. And I think it's a role that I could foresee if we see continuing to do well into my
00:58:21
Speaker
you know, later years. I think it's a role that fits my voice well and shouldn't have a problem continue to singing for many years to come. But there are other roles that I, you know, that I think, you know, there are limits to how many times you can sing them.
00:58:37
Speaker
I think one of those is certainly, I might not get too many more opportunities to do the refugee in flight. I'm very glad that we did it in this production and that it was such a huge success and that people found it to be a role that...
00:58:54
Speaker
just fit me really well. But I have to say, it's a role that also costs me a tremendous amount. And I feel, you know, at the end of it, I really was ready to put it on the shelf. Not because I don't, I actually, I love the piece too much. And I think that it's too close. And sometimes there are goals, there's music that touches you too deeply.
00:59:23
Speaker
in a way that you can't come out of it. The only thing I can say is, luckily I have the music between me. I think if it was a straight acting role it would be worse. I think there's a chance that
00:59:38
Speaker
you could go so deep that it really does a number on you psychologically. But I think because you have to concentrate on rhythms and notes and vocal technique and things like that, it does put a little bit of a buffer between you and the emotional side of the role. So that helps. But sometimes, even within the operatic repertoire, there are roles like that, that no matter how hard you try to keep your distance, they will get their claws in you.
01:00:06
Speaker
And flight is a role like that, the refugee. And I'm very happy that I had the opportunity. I'm very glad that I got to do it and got to do it multiple times because the first time I sang the role in opera Omaha, I only had two chances to do it. And so this time I got many more chances to do it. But
01:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, technically, emotionally, physically, on every level, spiritually, it's a role that I maybe won't run to sing again. I think if somebody offered me the opportunity to sing it again,
01:00:44
Speaker
I'd have a hard time saying no, but at the same time, it's a bit like my kryptonite, I feel, the role. And I think maybe that's what makes it so compelling, which is why it was so well received and why the public found it to be so touching and such an amazing production from Kobe van Wensburg, also just beautifully designed.
01:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes there are roles that you have to know. Perhaps it's time to put away for your own good. And I think that that's maybe one of them. But there are also more and more roles that I'm happy to explore. I'm very excited to go back to now after doing flight and having to put that away. And I've had now two months to kind of retool my voice
01:01:37
Speaker
and rethink it and rethink my technique and you know because flight is really a specific kind of technique that's the other thing singing the refugee although many people sing it
01:01:50
Speaker
completely normally, operatically. But I found the music calls on you to be much more judicious with your vocal color. And I think that it requires a certain naivete in the sound, which then also requires you to sing often in a more choralistic way, in a less soloistic way at times, because there's a lot of ensembles. And it's inappropriate, I find, sometimes in the ensembles to be just
01:02:18
Speaker
bellowing away with all the vibrato in the world on something that doesn't it's about tight harmonies and the intimacy and the melding of voices and you can't sing that like you sing you know other operatic repertoire and so although it is an opera and it has solo moments and it does call on you also to sing operatically at many moments it calls on you to also sing in an ensemble way and this kind of switching back and forth
01:02:47
Speaker
which is how I understand the role and my interpretation when I bring to it. And I don't feel I can sing it any other way. It's a cost for me, technically. And so I needed some distance from it afterwards. And I'm very happy to have the next thing be, or fail, which is a much more lyrical, traditional way of singing.
01:03:10
Speaker
But it's also put the mirror in front of me again and made me have to reevaluate my approach and learn to relax certain muscles that I feel maybe got a little bit tense in the process of doing the refugee.
01:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, because of the emotions and the sort of trauma that I think it sort of set into my body a little bit. I had to kind of re-explore my voice now. So Orfeo is a great way to do that. I feel like it's a good piece. It's sort of like how people always say, go back to Mozart. You know, I feel like Gluck has this ability to kind of go, you need to, you know, really think of this in terms of your technique and simplify and
01:03:56
Speaker
don't put too much behind it. And so that's lovely. I think that it couldn't have come at a better moment. And it's exactly what I need right now. It's a nice challenge also to come back to it. And it'll set me up nicely then for when I have to do a much easier role.
01:04:15
Speaker
like the San Francisco will be, Pateno Pei sits in a very squarely handle alto zone, which always seems to be easy for my voice to ship back into. But it's good that it's kind of a warm down into it to do the Orfeo in a way, because the Orfeo is going to have very bigger demands on me from a lyrical standpoint.
01:04:40
Speaker
But it'll also make me really focus on a healthy open line in the voice, which is lovely to have that. That's a gift.
01:04:50
Speaker
Absolutely, no. And it's so fascinating how even within one specific voice type and one art form, you know, the countertenor voice type in the opera world, there is so much variety in the different ways you use that same instrument, like those two flaps of muscle tissue in your throat, which is what the voice is, you know, between, you know, flight and, and it's just, there's such a variety there.
01:05:20
Speaker
And as a matter of fact, yeah, so as you were talking now, I was realizing that actually as a countertenor, you get to run quite a gamut of the different kinds of roles you get to sing. You get to be hero, to play heroes, anti-heroes, villains, and all kinds of different characters when so many other voice types are much more archetypal.
01:05:42
Speaker
Like sopranos tend to be ingenues and tenors are the ardent lovers. Basis tend to be God's kings or the devil, you know. So countertenors actually have a lot more of a variety of the different kinds of roles they get to play and the stories that they tell. So
Opera's Role in Storytelling and Culture
01:05:57
Speaker
that actually leads to my next question, which is that what role is there for opera to tell stories today?
01:06:08
Speaker
Do you mean by that question, like, does opera have a place in contemporary society? I believe so. So yes, and especially with more contemporary works and also with works that are being kind of woken up from, you know, more than sometimes 300 years of not having been performed. Well, I think that opera always has something to tell. To me, it's sort of a, how to put it,
01:06:39
Speaker
It's an archive of humanity's way of telling story through song. So I don't, as paleontologists and sociologists and anthropologists, all these people who study things with human history, it doesn't seem to ever have been a point in human history where music wasn't a part of it. And I think that
01:07:08
Speaker
It's part of our nature, and I think it's part of nature in general. There's music in other species. We're not the only species that has, I think, music. I think our understanding of what is music is different from other species, but there's a sort of form of that in birds, for instance. There's communication through pitch-specific
01:07:35
Speaker
So that's really what music is. It's a sort of codification of that. And it's become very complex within the human species and then has been used as a medium in which to tell stories. Sometimes those stories
01:07:48
Speaker
are universal. Sometimes those stories are pretty much going to forever be something that we have to tell. Sometimes those are stories that we no longer need to perhaps
01:08:02
Speaker
telling something that we no longer believe in, but it's important to remember them because if we just decide that we're going to forget that there was a point in history where human beings thought that way, we run the risk of repeating it. So I think there's a place for
01:08:23
Speaker
this huge body of work forever in contemporary society because it at once shows the universality, the complete perpetual
01:08:40
Speaker
unending nature of what it is to be a human being. That this sort of seems to be timeless. There's certain truths about our experience that don't seem to change very much over the centuries. And there are many things, many ways in which we've thought about the world that have changed over the centuries. But it's important not to forget that there was a point in which we thought differently.
01:09:00
Speaker
And perhaps the exploration of why that is is perhaps even more important nowadays when we're finding this sort of critical mass of information is causing a sort of confusion about reality. And I think the deeper and deeper we go down that rabbit hole of
01:09:23
Speaker
Unending information whether it's checked biased truth or not it's constantly we're being bombarded with that and
01:09:36
Speaker
never before in history have we been so stimulated. And I think that that's something that opera then, if people will let it, gives you a chance to just focus for however long that piece lasts on one thing for that period of time. Similarly, other forms of storytelling can do that, but there's something about music that touches a chord vibrationally, literally,
01:10:06
Speaker
in people and drives home a point very different from anything else and I would say I would argue that some of the best acting when you look at a say a film or a theatrical play that's
01:10:23
Speaker
that you find, why does this touch me so deeply? I think because there's a musicality in it. There's a sense of time in it. And some of the best actors have a very good sense of time, of rhythm, of what it takes to put a point across. And I think that that's something that music
01:10:44
Speaker
Um, perhaps traditionally gives us a very kind of codified way of looking at it, but I, I do feel that there are clues to what, what is being meant by them. If you look at it very closely, you know, a lot of times when you're a student, I like to use this example of, um,
01:11:03
Speaker
you know, when you're learning something, you maybe don't learn it so carefully and you kind of overlook rhythms and you decide, well, I, you know, it's easier to sing it like this or whatever, you know, and you don't pay attention to the clues the composer is giving you. And you don't treat it with any kind of sincerity or, you know, desire to meet the wishes of the composer. And I find that, you know, then you're kind of ignoring
01:11:31
Speaker
the clues that they're trying to tell you about something. It could be something that, yeah, for you at this point in time doesn't make any sense, but it made sense then. Why did it make sense then? And then you're kind of ignoring something terribly interesting. If you actually look at it on Facebook for why it was written the way it was written, and perhaps why sticking to what was written could be more interesting than you changing it and giving your own interpretation of it.
01:11:55
Speaker
right? So that's the argument for historical practice for me. It should serve that kind of point of trying to understand the thought process behind something and showing that in the truthful way. It's not there to make your life more difficult or to hamper your interpretation. It's there to serve it if nothing else and to serve a bigger point. And so when we're talking about
01:12:23
Speaker
what is the viability of opera in the current world? I think that it's that we have clues into understanding how we got to where we are.
01:12:34
Speaker
where perhaps we want to go. And some of those clues exist in the past and some of those clues exist in our current times when we allow ourselves to go deep into the creative process, explore and create something from scratch and find something new.
01:12:53
Speaker
comes out of that, right? So I think that opera will never be done telling a story through song. It'll evolve. It'll change. A lot of the people who are on the frontier of contemporary works, it doesn't sound like what opera was even maybe 10 or 20 years ago. They're bringing in elements of very different styles of music that perhaps beforehand had nothing to do with the operatic medium. But that doesn't mean that it can't in the future.
01:13:23
Speaker
I think this is again the topic of malleability and I think that's something that we as artists have the incredible gift to spend a lifetime being allowed to explore change. That's something that most people are not called upon to do, most people are afraid to do,
01:13:46
Speaker
And if you can find your way with that, you're making peace with that, it's a very rich life that I wouldn't trade for the world. After all of the risks and the difficulties of being in this world, I'm not going to paint it like it's some beautiful thing to be an artist. It's difficult. It's a hard road. But it's one that if
01:14:15
Speaker
If you really see it for its true gifts, it can bring so much more rewards than all of the difficulties that it presents. It makes all of those things sort of trivial in comparison. So yes, I do think opera has a lot to still tell the world. I think opera will not go away. I think it'll transform. It'll keep changing as long as there are people that see the value in it.
01:14:43
Speaker
And I don't think that there will ever be a point in history where humans won't see the value in music. I think that that will forever stay. And there will be new generations. I'm always excited to see young people who come and have clearly
01:15:00
Speaker
suddenly discovered that they love Baroque music or they love contemporary or they like experimental music or they like even traditional 19th century music even though that's not my medium but you know if that's your thing and you love that tradition and we need to have people who are exploring those things we need to have people who appreciate those things and continue to carry the flame so that we don't forget where we came from and where we're going
01:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's remembering our history and knowing our history, you know, as an art form and also to a large degree as people, I think. No, but I mean what you say about really, really embracing, and I'm paraphrasing you, but really embracing that malleability as a positive, even with all of the difficulties that
01:15:45
Speaker
can come with it and can come with sort of fear of change and, you know, change that happens as a byproduct. I think that's such a beautiful perspective to have and really reassuring.
Metropolitan Opera Debut and Pandemic Reflections
01:15:57
Speaker
And speaking of that, Kafka, I'm going to ask you about your 2020 experience with because that was a major year for you.
01:16:06
Speaker
you sang the role of Naruto, alongside star Mezzo Soprano, Joyce Di Donato, at the Metropolitan Opera in Handel's Agrippina. And that was broadcast in HD all over the world. So not only was it your debut, but it was broadcast worldwide. I saw you from the movie theater in Jerusalem in Israel. You were spectacular. And that same year, you also moved to Germany. And that's before you get into COVID.
01:16:35
Speaker
So tell us about your experiences, and again, speaking of being malleable, in 2020. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely, I don't think I would have survived if I wasn't that type of person. But yeah, no, I have to say, you know, of course, my experience
01:16:56
Speaker
at the Met, it feels like a dream. I sometimes wonder if it even happened, but I have the video to prove it. Not because it was the Met necessarily, although that was an amazing milestone for me in my career.
01:17:13
Speaker
that I don't feel that I deserved to do that. I felt like at that moment in my career, I was ready for that challenge and to get on that stage and do what I did. And I'm very proud of what I, my performance in that and very happy that I have a record of it. But I, you know, I, that moment to me sometimes feels a bit
01:17:39
Speaker
like a bookmark in the book of my life because it was sort of where I had to put the book down then for a while. So it will forever have the imprint of that bookmark where I laid it for a couple of years, where I basically had to reinvent the wheel for myself then.
01:18:02
Speaker
I have to say, the experience of being on that stage, being with that cast, doing that particular opera, everything about it was...
01:18:15
Speaker
was a fabulous experience and a dream. I really can't say anything negative about my experience at The Met. It was all just very weird and surreal. And because I actually, I mean, I don't know how many people know this, but I was not originally tasked for this role. I was actually the cover for this production. And the cover's the understudy. Correct. And I came to do the role
01:18:44
Speaker
as the understudy, and the first day I came in to do all my paperwork for HR and everything, and they basically said to me, I don't know if anyone's let you know, but unfortunately, the person who was supposed to sing it was stuck in his country, couldn't get out, they couldn't get a visa, there was all these sorts of issues. And they said, you know, at least for the first week, you're gonna have to sing all the rehearsals. And I was like, oh, okay. And I had just come from covering a Midsummer Night's Dream at the,
01:19:16
Speaker
and didn't go on. So I had just had like, you know, a very long period of just sitting in a chair, mostly not getting to do my job. And I was basically kind of desperate at that point to actually sing and do something, you know, although I got to rehearse a bit, but I didn't really get to do the part.
01:19:37
Speaker
And, you know, and I and I decided after that I was like, after this next one, even though it's the mat, I was like, of course I'm going to do it. But I was like, I really don't want to put myself up for any more covering jobs. It's just it hurts too much.
01:19:52
Speaker
And I don't feel very good just sitting around doing nothing. So although I always like everything, look for the positives. I made the most out of it. I loved the castmates. I learned a lot sitting in that room and took as much away from it as I could. But I didn't feel they were things I couldn't have learned if I actually hadn't done the role as well. So that's in that respect. So I came to do this job, and I was a bit already
01:20:22
Speaker
Another cover job, but it's the Met. It's going to be exciting. Just, you know, take it in. And, you know, and I, and so then when I knew that I had to do it the first day, suddenly, you know, of course, my
01:20:35
Speaker
I got a little bit anxious at first. I was like, Oh, okay. And I, you know, I had, of course I prepared the role. So I wasn't like going to show up unprepared, but, but I wasn't prepared in the way that I thought I was going to have to do it on the first day. You know, but I, you know, but I, I was ready. Um, and they knew that that might be the case. So I think the pressure was a little off that it didn't need to be
01:21:00
Speaker
100% perfect, but it needed to be at least 99% perfect. And yeah, and so I was ready. And yeah, and I sang the first rehearsal and Harry Bickett, lovely man and great conductor and wonderful to work with him. You know, immediately afterwards he said to me, he goes,
01:21:20
Speaker
That's how you show up, you know, as a cover and ready to go, you know, and I was like, oh, that's he's happy. So, you know, and and yeah, then working then along with with David Sir David MacVicar was amazing. And, you know, within a week, two weeks, then I was really ensconced in the cast and really giving all of my interpretation of the role.
01:21:45
Speaker
and making a lot of people laugh in the room and that felt really good. I really enjoy playing comedy. I don't necessarily get to do it as much as I'd like as a countertenor, but it's a lot of fun. And yeah, so yeah, and then pretty soon after that, you know, a few weeks in, they basically were like, well, if this guy isn't going to show or we can't get him here, this is not going to work long term.
01:22:09
Speaker
and they asked the team what they felt about me and everybody unanimously was like he's fantastic he should do the role so i was very lucky that i had a very supportive team and uh and i was ready for the job you know so um yeah that's another little piece of advice for singers you know it's like
01:22:29
Speaker
Even if you're the cover, just be ready. You just don't know. And it's a chance to prove yourself. And if you're not coming there with all of your package to show, your full guns, then you should treat everything. Even if it's a cover, go big or go home. Amen.
01:22:51
Speaker
So yeah, so I, you know, I was happy that I was in that position. And yeah, then got the call pretty quickly after that, I guess, discussion that they had in private, that I had the job and, you know, renegotiated my contract now that I wasn't a cover. And and that was amazing. And so that was a huge turning point for me. And I felt I felt that that was going to be the beginning of many things, you know, and and
01:23:21
Speaker
And then I had actually already a cover position for the next season, but that didn't end up taking place. But in a way, it would have been strange to come back then as a cover after having already made my debut. So in some ways, it was probably the right thing, timing and everything for that respect, but in that respect.
01:23:45
Speaker
But I came out of it, you know, and then basically flew to Germany to start Flight. That was the next production I had and I had left, basically we had the final show and I left the day after. So we closed on the evening and the next Flight I had was on the 8th of March.
01:24:08
Speaker
I think it was the 8th of March, and I flew to Germany and arrived on the 9th, started rehearsals for about a week, and then the whole world stopped. So yeah, and then I didn't really know what was next. I kind of, for a while,
01:24:30
Speaker
was a bit in shock, of course, like we all were, I think. But I had so many contracts still, and they weren't even sure what they were doing at the theater yet. And nobody really knew what was going to happen. We thought this could go over in two weeks. So it was just a holding pattern at that point. And I got stuck. And then the longer I stayed, the more I had time to reflect.
01:24:58
Speaker
I guess, you know, I also kind of made my peace with things. I said, well, you know, if this is the end, if this is where we stop, you had a nice ending, you know, like, would it be okay if this was where it ends? You know, you made it to one of your
01:25:17
Speaker
you know your goal since you started this journey was to sing on that stage and you had a huge success and if it ends here then so be it kind of I kind of made my peace with that you know as as the months drew on and we realized that this was not going to go away anytime soon and yeah but then you know I kind of kept putting some thought to it and I thought well am I going to stay in this
01:25:45
Speaker
in this place and hope that there will be opportunities or do I go back home, which was a disaster zone in New York, that would have been a really probably bad move. So I just thought, you know what, you better just stay here. And then I made friends. I, you know, I already had some friends from when I did a Hasa opera here in 2017 and 18.
01:26:08
Speaker
in the same town where I was, in the same theater, Oldenburg. And so it wasn't like I didn't know where I was. I wasn't in a completely unknown place. But I didn't live there, so it wasn't my home. But I suddenly started to put down roots. I connected with people here. I started to do what I always did. I adapted. I was like, okay,
01:26:33
Speaker
You know, that's the situation now. So what can we do? You know, I bought into buying lots of equipment so I could do recording and did that wonderful project with you and an upper Williamsburg of fail and, you know, did some crazy things in the pandemic. I mean, that was really kind of a crazy process, if you think about it. I mean, we were all recording in our in our bedrooms or our rooms. I was recording in the basement of the university.
01:27:03
Speaker
Because I had some friends that had space downstairs, which was like a rec room, which no one was allowed to be in because of COVID. So I was able to kind of use the room with no problem. And yeah, I was doing green screen acting and recording audio with my little Tascam down there, and then editing it and sending it off.
01:27:28
Speaker
Jorge was putting it all together and you know, Nama was doing all of this video editing then afterwards and it was just like a month-long process. I've never spent so much time preparing something like that. But we all had nothing else to do, right? It was like that was our full-time job at that point and it was really cool and
01:27:54
Speaker
reflective. We had a lot of time to reflect on our own voices because we were recording and listening back to ourselves all the time and watching ourselves on camera. It was a very interesting period of introspection while still creating. So I was very lucky that I was given opportunities to create even though it was a time of isolation and introspection.
01:28:21
Speaker
I was creating, you know, so I recorded a new song from a composer that I was friends with that we created. I did other recording projects for a group in Connecticut in the Berkshires in Massachusetts that wanted to do some stuff online, so I recorded.
01:28:40
Speaker
I started doing stuff with different kinds of synth instruments and learning how to create stuff with that and I got very into the technological stuff because I had the time and I was always a bit of a geek for that kind of thing and I liked that kind of thing.
01:28:55
Speaker
So I got into that and then pretty quickly, I'd say within a year or so, came some performing opportunities here. And so I was lucky that I was in Germany in a place that had that opportunity. There were other people, especially in the US, that basically just never worked for two years.
01:29:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's horrible.
Post-Pandemic Performances and Personal Growth
01:29:21
Speaker
Like, I didn't have that. I was lucky. I had, you know, also financially lucky. I had, you know, assistance. I had the money from from my last job that was pretty decent from the Met. And I had, you know, and I had luckily a theater that supported me here that paid parts my contract out so that I could survive living here while I stayed.
01:29:43
Speaker
So I was able with that to kind of float my way. So this is something that not everybody had. And I count my lucky stars that I did. And that's why I was able to do these kind of small projects and keep creating and exploring. And then eventually, luckily, the theater world here came back much quicker than other places. So with lots of restrictions and lots of
01:30:10
Speaker
hygiene concept as they say here and social distancing So we had to do all of this stuff, of course, but we we performed, you know and One of the first things I did coming back was handles y trion for the tempo and that these in gano which is an oratorio sort of style work but secular in nature and dealing with
01:30:36
Speaker
personifications of time, beauty, pleasure, and disillusionment. And I played disillusionment.
01:30:45
Speaker
That's a one to have smacked up on your resume. I play disillusionment. It's a good icebreaker at a dinner party. But it was this very interesting role to play and interesting piece to do in those times because it was also a very introspective piece dealing with people's attitudes towards time, pleasure, beauty. What is that? What are those things?
01:31:14
Speaker
And I had to play always the one who was questioning what all those things were. And I was certainly in a point in my life where I was questioning everything about my reality, my existence. I was like, who am I when I'm not an opera singer? That really started to make me expand also my ideas about what I want moving forward. So I think that that certainly was a very invaluable time. I looked at COVID,
01:31:43
Speaker
Yes, it sort of slowed the trajectory of my career down quite a bit at that point, which is just for everybody, so I wasn't like I was the only one. But what was unique to my experience maybe, that some people maybe didn't have the lucky opportunity to have, is that I was able to explore things in a very different way that I would have never had the chance to do.
01:32:08
Speaker
if the world didn't slow down. So I look at that time as very precious. I think that it definitely was a special time for me. It presented lots of challenges. It was not easy. I'm not going to try again.
01:32:27
Speaker
Sometimes I think people think I'm just like ultra-optimist and I have no sense of reality. But the truth is it's not that. It's that I choose to recognize when there are challenges and disadvantages and things that perhaps are not what I planned. And I choose to just confront them not from a place of negativity or pessimism. And I choose to just look at it like,
01:32:51
Speaker
How can we turn this into something else that I actually want to be a part of, that I actually want to do? I'm always...
01:32:59
Speaker
sort of trusting that intuitively I'm going to know when it's time to walk away and when it's time to face something. And I trust that my inner impulses are going to tell me when it's the right time to do either or. I think it's that sometimes people don't listen to that inner dialogue or they don't want to or it doesn't feel safe to do that.
01:33:26
Speaker
then it becomes a lot of resistance, right? And that's just something that I pride myself on being able to always
01:33:37
Speaker
be open to the fact that I don't have all the answers, that I know that there are things that I'm going to have to re-face and struggles that will come, but that I can always adapt, you know? There will always be a way. And if nothing else, COVID taught me that. I mean, really, I mean, there were so many things that came out of that, that were beautiful experiences, that were amazing, that taught me a lot,
01:34:07
Speaker
I wouldn't have had if it didn't happen. So that terrible thing that happened didn't have to necessarily ruin my life. And it didn't. And so in the end, I think it was just an amazing thing that it turned out to be the way it did.
01:34:22
Speaker
Yeah, I know. But what an incredible exercise. And I know this word keeps coming up of malleability and resilience. I mean, my goodness. And I think it really was, I mean, certainly for you and also for all of us in slightly unique ways and also ways that are not unique. Because as you said, it really kind of shut the world down for a bit. But that's just so incredible to hear your personal story as to how you dealt with that.
01:34:48
Speaker
And then I guess you touched on this a little bit when talking about, especially 2021, as theaters were starting to get back on their feet. And I think the German, I mean, not I think the German theaters got back up on their feet much more quickly than the American theaters. So how do you compare being an opera singer in Germany versus being one in the United States?
01:35:17
Speaker
Oh, it's a night and day for me. I mean, because of the repertoire I sing to, this is the best place in the world for me, because they just they really have an appreciation for Baroque music. And my agency, which is based in Vienna in Austria, they are huge for
01:35:39
Speaker
runners of creating a world for Baroque music, a complete universe even of Baroque music and they bring everybody into their universe that shares that equally. Parnassus is a very special environment for that to explore this art form that we all love and I'm just very grateful that I could be a part of that team.
01:36:04
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, in the United States, there just didn't exist anything quite on that level or that really spoke to me the way the artistic opportunities here speak to me. And there's a security here. I'm not part of that security world. I still have to fight just as much as I did in the United States. I'm a freelancer.
Cultural Perspectives on Creativity
01:36:28
Speaker
I'm not a fast Zengar.
01:36:30
Speaker
as it were like a permanent singer in a house that's contracted that gets a salary every month and has a kind of steady job then by you know by all accounts and i don't have that luxury but i've been very lucky and um you know i have a good agency
01:36:48
Speaker
have luckily done good work that speaks for itself and continue to get work and Yeah, so I've always kind of let the work speak for itself and sort of trusted that it will bring the future of whatever I am meant to do And that up till now has served me quite well You know and I and I guess Yeah, the big difference I would say is that
01:37:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird. In America, I think we have this concept that we have all this freedom, that we have this creative freedom that we aren't hemmed in by maybe some of the things that we feel that a socialist system might hem us in to be. But there is also freedom in boundaries. And I think the fact that there are clearer boundaries here makes a big difference.
01:37:48
Speaker
I think that there is a kind of way of functioning in this world that once you understand how it works, it works very well. And for all of its bureaucratic craziness, and as an American, we can shake our heads and roll our eyes because there's some stuff that just we'll never understand. But there are things about living here that I have to say are extremely beneficial.
01:38:13
Speaker
And I think that's something that we don't always maybe understand when we've only had the American experience. We always think, well, here we have freedom. And sometimes I think, do we, though? It can be very ambiguous. Yeah, because it's not a kind of tangible freedom. Whereas here, I feel like the freedom that I have to be who I am and do what I do is much more tangible. I can kind of touch it, see it, feel it.
01:38:42
Speaker
in a way that I couldn't in America. You know, I think that there's a flexibility of thinking in the way that we think as Americans that puts me at an advantage in this society as an artist. I think they need people like us. That maybe not be, that there's not such a readily available thought process for them that we allow ourselves this kind of, I would say,
01:39:12
Speaker
ultra malleability that I seem to embody and represent is not something very particular to the German culture. And so that aspect sometimes is a bit harder for them to
01:39:28
Speaker
Embrace as it were And so I have that advantage that I can that I that I have experienced with that that that's how I function and that allows me to function within a very kind of more codified system much better Because I kind of know
01:39:49
Speaker
how it functions and then I switch it up when it no longer serves me and I go in different directions. I much prefer being in Germany for that reason, but I do thank the fact that I grew up in an environment like the United States that encouraged a certain level of
01:40:13
Speaker
choice, change, malleability, creativity that I don't necessarily think maybe is as prized in the German culture within their necessarily their education system. A lot of them talk about the kind of rigidity of their education system and how difficult it can be sometimes
01:40:35
Speaker
for people to see outside the box in German culture. And as an artist, that's invaluable. You have to be able to do that.
01:40:47
Speaker
You know, so there's these two things, but I often think back to, I took a French literature course and a creative writing course when I was at Hunter College, actually, in French creative writing. And one of the things that the teacher was constantly doing was setting boundaries, which is also very French. It's a very European thing, you know, like there's rules and we follow the rules.
01:41:11
Speaker
You were talking about finding freedom, you know, freedom within the boundaries of the German system, which is so much sort of stricter in a way than the American system. I remember I was going to give a little anecdote. So there was this class that I had to take in Hunter College, and it was about creative writing in French, learning how to write creatively in French. And so I was doing this class and a lot of the exercises that she would give out had to do with
01:41:41
Speaker
you
01:41:43
Speaker
certain boundaries like you can only use words that begin with B. You have to write this whole thing based on something specific and it can only be this many lines and like all these like criteria things. You know, it has to start and end every sentence with this kind of thing. So that is a kind of interesting way of forcing creativity and I think
01:42:12
Speaker
there's something to be said by having boundaries in a certain way that forces a certain kind of creativity. Because once you've set where your parameters are, then you know exactly how much room you have to move around in it. And you can better discern what kind of picture you want to make, because you know where the walls and the ceiling and the floor are. So there's a kind of beauty to that. And I often think about that class
01:42:41
Speaker
and what actually that class was about, because I never became a French author. But what I actually learned in that class was how boundaries can serve you to be more creative. And I think that there are certain things about living within the German system that you realize, okay, it's not like in America, you can't just like do that or do this, there's a system here, you got to work within the system. But
01:43:06
Speaker
there's a creativity that then that allows you to be within the parameters. So I think it was the getting comfortable with that, of course. And having had the experience of having, I feel like growing up in the United States, sometimes no boundaries. Is this kind of it creates
01:43:29
Speaker
Yeah, an ability to sort of stretch your mind in ways that if you were constantly being put upon to only think a certain way, that you maybe wouldn't be able to do that so easily. So I got the best of both worlds, basically.
01:43:43
Speaker
having grown up in the United States, but then adopting Germany as my home and learning how to live within a different culture, you know, stretching my mind, stretching my activity, stretching my thinking, my abilities in a way that only that kind of experience can do, you know. So I feel, yeah, those are the big differences between the two.
01:44:12
Speaker
learning to live within the system, feeling the security of that system, but that security also means that maybe there isn't so much of a jump from how high you can go or how low you can fall. Everything kind of stays more in the middle, but that you get a bit comfortable with that and you create new highs and lows within that system. Yeah.
01:44:41
Speaker
Yeah.
Upcoming Projects and Philosophical Reflections
01:44:42
Speaker
What are your upcoming projects? We have, of course, we have Israel, which is the Israeli opera doing Orfeo El Yuridice of Glück. Very excited for that. That's coming next. Then Partenope for my San Francisco opera debut. Very exciting. I have then in the summer preparing some recitals and concerts that I'll be doing touring around in
01:45:07
Speaker
Poland, Germany, Austria. And recording a bit also. I have some things coming out. I have a CD coming out with...
01:45:21
Speaker
in the Baroque that we recorded in Rome. I also have another video and recording coming out of a contemporary cantata written for historical instruments in the style of a Baroque cantata.
01:45:38
Speaker
completely reinvented basically with Rafael Fusco's music, fabulous composer that I've worked with quite a lot, collaborated with. So I've got quite a lot of things coming out and coming up and I've even gotten some stuff now on the calendar for 25.
01:45:54
Speaker
I can't really announce it because they haven't announced it elsewhere, but I do know that I will be coming to Karlsruhe in 25 for a very fun, new and contemporary production.
01:46:11
Speaker
So that's exciting. And yeah, I'm continuing. I have some new projects with a composer from Estonia that we are planning to do in the probably late 24 period and getting to go to Estonia for the first time. So that's exciting. So yeah, there's quite a lot kind of on the horizon.
01:46:33
Speaker
That is amazing. Yeah. So I'm so excited for you to announce your contracts for both 2024 or the rest of 2024 and 2025. So I'll be waiting with baited breath watching my Facebook and Instagram to see. Yeah. Now I have to admit these next questions are sort of a broader question. So what is art?
01:46:54
Speaker
Wow. Lightning round. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. You can answer that if you wish or not. I feel like I kind of answered that already, but I don't. That's a very, very difficult question to answer, but I would say certainly what art for me is, is a codification of human experience
01:47:22
Speaker
that's either shown through a visual, a sound, a haptic, or some kind of sensory experience. So it can be anything though, really. Art is so malleable as a concept, but art is basically taking your experience of reality and putting it into some kind of a sensory experience.
01:47:52
Speaker
Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. And, uh... Or your surreality doesn't have to be your reality. It could be completely your dreams. I'm not saying that it has to be a reality, but it has to be something that you've internally experienced, that then you put into some kind of sensory.
01:48:10
Speaker
No, experience, or others. Absolutely, like surreal. Oh, sorry, didn't mean to interrupt. No, it's going to like, like something surreal, dream experiences or mad scenes, you know, scenes of insanity. Yeah. Oh, and then as per the name of the show, I do have one question for you, like one last question for you. And that is, why is there something rather than nothing? Well,
01:48:41
Speaker
That's a very good question. I think that there is... I think inherent in that statement actually doesn't mean that nothing doesn't exist. I think what it means though is that something exists because there is nothing. But we choose something in this reality because
01:49:12
Speaker
that's the one thing, I guess some people, maybe I'll make the statement, I don't know. I mean, I'm really just talking off the cuff here because that question, I don't really know how to answer. We experience the world as something. And of course, all of these somethings came at first from nothing, but we don't have any experience of that nothing. That's the something that we will remember when it's all over. But the nothing,
01:49:38
Speaker
is to me the genesis of something. Something cannot exist without the nothing. And likewise, that nothing
01:49:50
Speaker
even as a concept couldn't exist if something never came. So to me, the two are sort of intrinsically tied together. And I think that we live in a world of some things rather than nothings. And I want to believe that part of why we choose to be artists is because we choose to, in a way,
01:50:18
Speaker
rail against the inevitable nothingness by creating something because that makes this experience of being alive something far more valuable than if we never embraced that if you just consider that in the end there could be nothing
01:50:38
Speaker
Then, yeah, and I think it's a justification for everything that exists, this art, whether it be art, whether it be, you know, the way we perceive things, the religion, history. I think it all exists in control, juxtaposition sort of to the nothingness. And I think that we as human beings can't fathom something
01:51:05
Speaker
that is nothing. So we choose to create something because that's for our brain, for our sense of reality, for our sense of perception, the only thing that we can actually tangibly hold on to. Nothing is something that we can actually really
01:51:27
Speaker
conceptualize. It's the thing that we'll never understand, basically. But it's likewise the thing that drives us to create something in the first place. And I think maybe, if I'm going to tie it to everything that I've talked about in the whole episode, that that nothingness
01:51:46
Speaker
is perhaps what drives us to create something and that nothingness is what can inspire us to continue to be malleable. Because the minute that we stop being malleable, we just get kind of sucked up into the void of nothing. And so the malleability is what allows you to keep changing, to evolving, to perceiving, to creating, to being. The minute you
01:52:13
Speaker
stop being malleable, you stop being, and then there is no longer something. And so I really think that that's the key to life, that's the key to everything, is that we strive to be something rather than nothing. Yeah, and it's as if that malleability is the catalyst, or sorry, that nothingness is the catalyst to create something. They're all sort of railing against the nothingness.
01:52:41
Speaker
Railing against the, what is the expression? Railing against the grind. No, I don't think that's it. Railing against the nothing end. Seriously, all of my own silliness and kerfaffles aside, you are such a gem and I love you so much. I think you know that.
01:52:59
Speaker
So, yeah, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I can't wait for Ken to, and Ken, I know you're listening obviously, I can't wait for Ken to like podcast meet you. I told him, oh, Ken, you're gonna love him less. So I'm so excited. And thank you so much for coming on and have an awesome rest of your evening in Audenboeux. Thank you. Thank you so much. For the rest of this evening. Talk to you soon. All right, ciao. Bye.
01:53:35
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.
01:54:05
Speaker
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01:54:33
Speaker
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