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Episode 133: Jay Said What About Krenko?
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Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast! Recently the hosts have spent many weeks trying to learn everything they could about our friend Jay Annelli's book Magic: The Gathering: Legends: A Visual History. This is part two and this week when we get into disaster planning, emergency management and figure out how those relate to a full time gig doing Magic! Also there's some important Discussion about Krenko, and about Niv Mizzet's role as management on Employee Appreciation Day.
Again we would like to state that Black Lives Matter (with a link to where you can offer support both monetary and not).
We also are proud to have partnered with Grinding Coffee Co a black, LGBT+ affiliated and owned, coffee business that is aimed at providing coffee to gamers. You can read more about their mission here. You can use our partner code for discounted coffee!
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As promised, we plan to keep these Mental Health Links available moving forward too. For general Mental Health the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has great resources for people struggling with mental health concerns as well as their families. We also want to draw attention to this article on stigma from NAMI's site.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below.
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
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- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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You can find the hosts on Twitter: Hobbes Q. at @HobbesQ, and Alex Newman at @Mel_Chronicler. Send questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to @GoblinLorePod on Twitter or GoblinLorePodcast@gmail.com.
Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle).
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast, and a part of their growing Vorthos content – as well as Magic content of all kinds. Check them out at hipstersofthecoast.com.
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Transcript
00:00:29
Speaker
Okay.
Krenko's Portrayal and Power
00:00:30
Speaker
So bringing up return twos, uh, you know, one of the others that you brought up was Krenko with an amazing, uh, you know, acknowledgement at the end that he is a legitimate businessman. Um, because we fully support that. Here's something you'll probably enjoy. My, uh, first draft for the Krenko section, it was full of alleged lease.
00:00:55
Speaker
Um, so it was, it was like Krenko was, uh, Krenko is allegedly the leader of a goblin criminal cartel. Allegedly this allegedly that all the way through, just like, you know, like full on mafioso doublespeak. And, uh, it did not make it.
00:01:18
Speaker
editorial past. They're like, they're like, look, Jay, I like this. I love it even. But we're going to confuse the heck out of people if you put this in here. I'm like, fine. Take it out and make it more clear. I guess. But then they let me. That was how I emotionally blackmailed them into letting me put that thing into the ending there. I'm like, this is my like post script. Like I get to say whatever I want.
00:01:46
Speaker
And I'm going to defend my man, Cranko, because he's just trying to earn a living. Yeah, I, when I finished reading the book, I had I immediately sent a message to Hobbs when I when I read that sentence, the, you know, Cranko, the legitimate business goblin and I'm like, yep, that's, that's great. I love it. It's
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, so I will say the forward and the afterward are where they let me be silly and play around the most with my own voice rather than trying to just be clear and understandable, I guess. So we got questions for you today. One of them was, well, the funny part is this one was, who's the best goblin and why is it Cranko? I mean, obviously, it's because Cranko is the most powerful being in the multiverse.
00:02:33
Speaker
by the transitive property at least, right? So, Nicol Bolas, when they fought, did Nicol Bolas physically wound Gideon?
00:02:43
Speaker
No, no, no, he did not. Did the Eldrazi, were they able to physically, Eldrazi tightened gods? Were they able to physically wound Gideon as he was standing there swinging around his Saral while everyone else is doing all the real work of killing them? Right. No, no, no. Yeah, they did not. They did not draw blood. Did Krenko wound Gideon? Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Krenko was a powerful being in the multiverse. He's stronger than an Elder Dragon, stronger than Eldrazi Titans.
00:03:10
Speaker
Oh, this is the best part of the show so far. And my favorite part was that you used the term transitive property. I love throwing that into a conversation for no apparent reason. Alex is excited about the transitive property. And I'm like, yeah, but this is also very, very true. I have lots of thoughts about Cranko. So, you know, this
00:03:32
Speaker
this makes it even better. We have mentioned on the show numerous times the fact that he was able to get a scratch in against Gideon.
00:03:42
Speaker
It makes more sense. I have thoughts about work. Oh, sorry.
Creative Process and Character Planning
00:03:46
Speaker
Go ahead. Go ahead. No, you go ahead. I have thoughts about where I want Krenko to go, and I'm not sure I can really share them. But believe me, if Krenko ever comes back around, I'm going to have some things to say to the quite lovely people in the creative teams who are.
00:04:07
Speaker
Oh, the people I work with. So I work with a guy named Paul Morrissey, who works on the publishing side over with franchise. And I work with a lot of great people at Studio X and the creative team. Too many for me to go through naming here and also probably I don't want to send assault.
00:04:25
Speaker
Paul is not on Twitter, so he's fine. The others I know are on Twitter and I'm not sure I want to send anyone who dislikes me their way. But they're all wonderful and we collaborate a lot on the stuff you've seen, especially in the last year or so.
00:04:40
Speaker
like the boom comics and the web fiction. Yep. And it's been it's been a great experience working with all of them on these things. So if Cranko, if I ever find out Cranko is is on the block, like I have some very exciting thoughts about him in the future. We do, too. We've already said them in the past so they can be found on past episodes. Yeah, so we have to leave that one. Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
What is the hardest part of writing about so many popular legendary creatures? Like what is the difficult pieces? Trimming was one. So I think my original draft had like.
00:05:24
Speaker
I was probably around 150 characters and I had to cut down for space to about 120 characters. But the most challenging part was, especially with characters with like long, deep histories, like what are the most essential elements of this character that in 200 words, someone reading this will walk away with an understanding of who this person is, who this character is?
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I noticed you only gave like two pages to Bolas when that should have been the whole book.
00:06:01
Speaker
I mean, Bolas also, like, Bolas is one of the few characters who gets a profile in both Legends and Planes of the Multiverse. So, Bolas is doing just fine, Hobbs. Like, I think it's Bolas and Urza, because it's really hard to talk about a lot of things unless you lay the groundwork with those two first. So, one hero and one villain, I got you. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yes, one hero and one villain.
Character Profiles and Storytelling
00:06:30
Speaker
I have to say I do respect how much history, how much you were able to condense that down with the, particularly Urza and Yawma for two that I was impressed with. There is not a lot of words here and he manages to express quite a lot.
00:06:48
Speaker
about their history there. So I don't think I mentioned this before. Well, then again, only one other person ever wanted to interview me about the book. So it's not hard to not have mentioned it. But I think in one of my first drafts of
00:07:06
Speaker
of legends, especially with like the Weatherlight era characters, I built the story of the Weatherlight saga through the characters. So I talked a little bit about them, but then tried to weave the overall story through each profile culminating in Gerard and the legacy weapon going off.
00:07:31
Speaker
It was a lot of fun to do, but I think we were right to kind of tweak that a bit. There's still a little bit of it in there, I think, but it's not as explicitly like these 10 character profiles are building through this whole epic storyline. In part because we wanted people to be able to pick it up and not have to read it like front to back in order to understand what was going on. Like they could open to a character they like and read that profile.
00:08:01
Speaker
or character that looks cool and read that profile. So I think made a lot of sense to switch it. But yeah, I I wish I could have included more. Well, yeah, I was going to say I would narrowing. I mean, we talk about legendary creatures and we've had a whole episode on what it means to be legendary, what it means to be elder, what it means. You know, like these are all concepts that are very interesting because of how magic has developed in terms of gameplay, you know,
00:08:30
Speaker
in terms of I think the legendary creatures being a lot more prevalent with EDH obviously being probably the
Influence of Commander Popularity
00:08:36
Speaker
primary way that most people play at this point. That there is even love for the lore and the character pieces and so getting that is more difficult. I mean or like you just to cut that down at this point. So I should mention before we were looking at when I said earlier we were looking at like the diversity of characters like in both in creature types and of real people.
00:08:58
Speaker
And yeah, so EDH, our commander was also a major factor in who we picked. So if there are characters in there that don't have a ton of lore, they're probably in there because they're very popular on the commander end, which was another way we weighted things as we were trying to pick characters. At the time, there were less than 1,000 legendary creatures. Now there's 30% more legendary creatures in the game, so it would have been harder.
00:09:29
Speaker
Alex and I used a little bit about this when we talked about the Legends book is kind of thinking about that hard part and we know that this is gonna be stuff that you really can't talk about. But why things get chosen and it seems like they can be chosen. We've talked about this in the past with like wizard seating, wanting things to be in there that are gonna be like,
00:09:55
Speaker
coming up that are important for us to know.
00:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and we've seen that with like commander decks too, and commander product in particular, because it's not tied to the specific story like the standard sets are. So it's easier for them to just kind of wander wherever they want to put in is fair game. And so you kind of see that if you look at, okay, all the legends from this, the last several years, you have legends showing up from all these different planes. And sometimes,
00:10:27
Speaker
that and they said kind of like that you understand that there's gonna be things you can't talk about but at least for people who aren't plugged into some of that it can be fun to speculate or to just think about it just as an exercise you know what's present here what might be present here to remind us that this exists because something may be coming up for that.
00:10:50
Speaker
So in terms of these books, I should be able to talk pretty much about anything because I think any kind of, ooh, we're ceding this for the future has been revealed at this point.
Role of a Continuity Editor
00:11:00
Speaker
You all know what's coming out next year. And as the writer of this book, I have more leeway than if I was being the editor talking about it.
00:11:11
Speaker
Um, okay. I don't, I don't have like hard and fast rules outside of like the NDA stuff, but, uh, generally when it's just something I worked on as an editor, I tried to refrain from commenting for a variety of reasons. Um, and especially I don't want to claim credit for something that's a group effort. Uh, but when I'm like the author of the thing, um, and I have a great editorial team, but I have more like freedom to chat about why things were, were, were the way they were.
00:11:42
Speaker
especially on the promotional side, like my editor's not gonna care. We're talking about, they're getting free air time for their books, so. Yeah, you should let them know. We are recording episodes on both of them, so that is our plan. We joked about the fact that we are using our audio-only format to talk about visual guides. Yes. Yeah, I mean, that's the irony of all of us podcasters.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, well, and then I kept catching myself talking about Oh, well, and then this gorgeous art and it's like that I'm saying to a microphone that the people who are going to listen to this can't see. Sorry. But go buy the book because the artwork is great. Believe me.
00:12:28
Speaker
It's so good you guys. I am curious you like so because you've gotten to do these two projects kind of can you tell us a little bit about them like how you got into this role like where you've got to do this?
00:12:45
Speaker
Okay, so for those of you, I mean, we've gone this far. We haven't actually mentioned, other than me being the author of this, is that I also, some people in Wizards refer to me as like the lore master. I kind of hate that term because it's so nerdy. I'm not going to refer to myself as that with people I don't know.
00:13:08
Speaker
But I am like a continuity editor for Wizards of the Coast on magic stuff and have been for
00:13:19
Speaker
pretty much everything that's been published since War of the Spark in 2018? Early 2019?
Career Transition to Magic Community
00:13:28
Speaker
I don't remember exactly when the first War of the Spark round came out. Worked on like the Gathering Storm with Jenga Wexler and then I ended up
00:13:39
Speaker
I have like a retainer agreement with them where I work on a certain amount of certain word count amount amongst other things that I do for them. I am an outside contractor, so I should be very clear. I'm not in the room when discussions or meetings are happening on things, but
00:13:59
Speaker
And depending on who I'm working with, how I work on things can vary, especially when things were still like the e-books or the novellas, I should say. I would just get a...
00:14:14
Speaker
I'd get an email letting me know it was coming. Then I'd get an email with a thing itself and maybe some explainers. I'd get like the World Guide. So I'd be familiar with any changes that have been made. And I'd just run through it as an editor, track changes, leave comments. I'm really good at that kind of thing because my real job was emergency manager and I had to read the driest 500 page emergency plans.
00:14:42
Speaker
and leave like detailed comments throughout. So like I am like half my skill set is I know track change as well. Because believe me, if you don't know how to use that tool properly, publishing becomes a nightmare. And then who knew that that would be what what made you so valuable to the magic community was really, I mean, also spreadsheets. Yeah, tracking information through spreadsheets is also a major
00:15:12
Speaker
And then I work with, you know, working on like the web fiction, it's more of the authors have like a set schedule. There's like a shared place where all of that's put that I have access to, that I work with a number of the creative team people who are responsible for the story side amongst their other duties.
00:15:33
Speaker
and chat with them there. It's funny you said that because one of the other questions or things that we got was from at queer vigil who basically joked about why you keep making these content mess up. Yes, that's where I was responding to. Yes, and then just the idea that there was a timeline on fixing this. Jesus. So the web stuff is web team stuff.
00:15:59
Speaker
I am fairly sure like I'm not positive the web team exists. I feel like everyone says they exist. No. It's a hypothetical. It's allegedly a web team. I do not actually want to insult them because I have a feeling they're probably like the website looks fantastic. Yes, they are probably under resourced and I don't want to pile on on something that's not
00:16:27
Speaker
Super critical, but yeah, I hear you and I believe me I bring it up at least once a year twice a year with whoever I'm talking to about magic story stuff and It is where it is and it is there for reasons that I'm frankly not aware of They don't CC me on their internal emails about web team stuff. I don't know Yeah
00:16:52
Speaker
You're not getting CC'd on these? Gosh, man. I thought we had somebody that was a big deal on our show, Alex, but now we learned they're not even getting CC'd. I'm not, no. Just a little guy. Jay, you brought up, actually. I'm pivoting us completely to a tangent now at this point. I don't even know if I answered that question. I went into a long rant about what I do and that I don't know if I actually answered your question.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's good enough because once you started answering it, it just pushed my brain because the original thing we were going to have you on to talk about was basically pandemics.
Overlap of Skills: Emergency Management and Editing
00:17:28
Speaker
Um, that actually was the original topic for you was the public health side of things. Cause we had already done kind of this, we had done an episode about like disaster planning on Ravnica with Renee, like a long time ago. And that was right around when more of the spark was coming out.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, like, because we were just like joking about like, you know, like, that was the episode where zombies aren't actually the problem. Yeah. So, you know, the plan was originally to have you two on to talk about pandemics, you know, like, well, for us, phyrexian invasions, so to speak. But like, the other side of your, your, your, your life has been public health and disaster and kind of relief planning. Is that
00:18:17
Speaker
accurate? It has been. So basically up until about halfway through 2019, from the time I graduated grad school in 2010 through halfway through 2019, I was working in public health, specifically in public health emergency planning. What changed is we moved and we moved in the middle of a pandemic where
00:18:44
Speaker
basically everyone staffed up in the first six months of COVID, and then there haven't been a ton of positions available. But thankfully, my random side gig of magic that I am now involved in has
00:19:04
Speaker
I mean, between several different contracts I had this year, not everything I can talk about yet. I've basically made my salary as a high-level emergency manager this year. I'm not sure it'll be the same next year.
00:19:20
Speaker
you know, because this is this I doubt I will reproduce this year in terms of the contractual side for me. But so this year, I was basically a full time freelancer. But up until last year, I was a full time emergency manager in public health and I will be again. But it's just it's just a matter of finding the right position, because I made a mistake of
00:19:44
Speaker
Basically, so my wife's a physician. Um, we had to move a few times. I'm sure you know what, well, what this is like Hobbs. Uh, although you, you, you've probably heard stories, but yes, I met her after after residency, but yes. Yeah.
00:19:59
Speaker
So, you know, we were in Maryland for we were lucky enough to get a residency in Maryland where our family and friends are fellowship was down in Virginia Beach. So I left my position in Maryland, where I was the the emergency operations manager for Maryland Department of Health.
00:20:17
Speaker
I went down to Virginia Beach. I worked for the Crimson Plus sign that I will not name further because they have a lot of weird social media stuff. Did not enjoy that position. I was good at it, but I did not enjoy it.
00:20:32
Speaker
Um, because it was like the first place that offered me a job and I will never take the first place that offers me a job again, uh, and ended up moving into being a, uh, local level, what's called a public health emergency manager at one of the cities down there in that area. Um, which I enjoyed greatly and work.
00:20:51
Speaker
worked the first six months of COVID there before we moved back for, after my wife finished her fellowship. So yeah, right now I'm casually looking, but because the magic stuff has been so good and we got a new baby on the way, I was like, this isn't the highest priority for me. Like- Yeah. I mean, if there are hiring managers out there for emergency medicine or for emergency management that listen to the show, please get it, Jay.
00:21:20
Speaker
Um, but I know I am curious, you know, the overlap between, you know, like this, this, this show kind of being where I've been able to marry those two loves. Um, you made some jokes to it and well, or illusions to being good with like track changes and stuff, but I'm wondering where is that actual overlap for
Emergency Management's Impact on Storytelling
00:21:39
Speaker
you? Is there, is there overlap, I guess. Between the story. Well, I think it's more, um, it's what's the best way to put this.
00:21:50
Speaker
Emergency management is all about processes and communications. And as much as story is like, as we like to think of it as like an artistic thing, a lot of the elements of it are just like
00:22:12
Speaker
processes. I don't know how to explain this better, but there's actually a lot of skill set overlap just in terms of being able to go through a thing, look at it,
00:22:26
Speaker
critically, whether I'm enjoying it or not, thinking of all the other things and moving parts, especially in the newer web fiction area. It's been era. It's been much more challenging because it's not like just one novella. It's, you know, for these last bunch, it's 10 different stories, making sure all the moving parts are lined up. And I'm work is basically like a backstop for that. But when it comes to emergency management and looking through these plans, it's like, oh, well,
00:22:56
Speaker
How does this happen? Who does that? Why does this happen? Going through and basically asking that question for a whole lot of different things just gave me the correct skill set to be a good editor on these kinds of things and tracking all the elements between the stories.
00:23:21
Speaker
in a simple answer, yeah. Yeah, like going a little deeper, because this is what we were originally going to have you on for was the public health kind of piece, thinking of a pandemic. Well, see, the way I took that is because quite often in the storylines, there are disasters happening. And so that's how I interpreted it. I mean, to be fair, Alex,
00:23:49
Speaker
That was the direction I was kind of going, was thinking about where somebody like you would be valuable within a storyline for magic. Oh, yeah, no, no. There's been a few things where I... So new... What's the new kapena?
00:24:07
Speaker
um i am not a i was not officially a cultural consultant but i am a brooklyn italian from new york city so uh i i definitely had input on that story um but besides that you know when like
00:24:22
Speaker
whenever like, especially like government and organizational stuff comes up, I'm like, who does this? Why does why? Who's responsible for this? Like, what's going on here? Like, let's flush this out a little bit. I want to design like real governments for this plane. And they're like, Jay, we have other work we have to do. It doesn't make sense. Somebody would have to be in charge. I don't even remember what our questions were anymore. We had questions. Um, yeah, what question should we be asking in?
00:24:53
Speaker
I think we mostly just started having a conversation with you. It's kind of flown from there. I mean, that's most of how our conversations go. Yeah, I mean, I hear we could just completely go off the rails. Kes just asked very simply, how many goblins could ride Niv Mizzet at one time? Oh, that's a good question. That's hard. How many goblins could ride Niv Mizzet at one time?
00:25:22
Speaker
Could physically he could carry or could live through the experience of trying to ride the fire mind? Those are two very different questions. To be fair,
00:25:36
Speaker
Okay, so like the short answer is all on Ravnica because none of them are gonna say no to try. This is true. You know, like the is it goblins are not going to not give this a go, right? This is very clearly an experiment. Like they're lining up like it's more like tickets, please more so than yeah, so I guess
00:25:59
Speaker
If there was like a mechanical bull version of Niv-Mizzet, like that they could all climb on to, it'd be a lot. But the real one would not allow it. The real one? I want to hear the real one. The real one would not allow it is what I was saying. Why not though? I need to know why.
00:26:22
Speaker
Might have something to do with he's not like he'd be he'd be very indignant about it like he is above
00:26:29
Speaker
carrying someone around like a common dragon rider, right? He's not the Night Fury. If we're going before, you know, five-color think he's a god again, or god of some sort, you know, isn't he their clan leader? Shouldn't he be doing something like this as like a morale booster?
00:26:53
Speaker
So in the original Ravnica block, Niv Mizzet hadn't been seen in like a long time. And he shows up at one point, they finally call him for help. He shows up, kills one Nephilim, has a close call with another one. And he's like, nope, you can all handle this yourself. I'm not having enough. I'm not. I'm washing my hands of this and disappears. And people thought he was a planeswalker for like a decade.
00:27:16
Speaker
Um, so it's just, you know, it was like one stunned goblin, Krixizzix, who I, who I love. I hope she gets a card one day. Cause she's like, she's like the $6 million goblin. She's like a bionic goblin and she's awesome. Um, but yeah, like Niv, I can't see Niv like doing. Signing up for this. He would not allow anyone to ride him.
00:27:42
Speaker
See, Hobbs, what you were talking about, isn't he the leader? Shouldn't he be doing stuff for them? In my head, I'm picturing employee day at the Izzet Hall, and he just brings a carnival in or something. And that's the one day, he's like, all right, line up, give some rides. I don't know. On me. Boblins to the front. You've got some, I'm sure someone will have mini donuts there.
00:28:13
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know why now all of a sudden this this episode has gotten to the point where I'm coming up with this carnival but that's where my head's at because that's just what happens sometimes. You're planning a retreat for us. You're trying to make Niv a dragon of the people or the goblins at least. Yeah, you know, just employee morale at the the the is it whatever facilities they have?
00:28:37
Speaker
I
Creative Processes in Magic
00:28:38
Speaker
think you're ascribing way too much care for the rest of the guild. He wants them to do their job individually. He does not really care what happens beyond there. There are always more researchers. That is fair. I really wanted to see what an is it cotton candy machine would look like.
00:29:04
Speaker
So, but totally fair. That's wobbles down rabbit holes now. Is it cotton candy machine would probably start off as like a lawnmower or something. I don't know what the way their inventions go. They just, they're, they're invented for one thing and then laterally repurposed for something else when it's clear they don't work for that thing.
00:29:25
Speaker
And then the way you fix that is taking something else that's unrelated to either the intended purpose or the original purpose of the other object and try to continue making it go in a different direction. Jango really, like, really understands the is it. And in his Gathering Storm stories, there's like the mention of like an elevator. I think it was an elevator. It was originally designed as an elevator.
00:29:52
Speaker
and ended up getting repurposed as a trash compactor because it kept squashing people or something along those lines and it was just like that is just the is it to a T. What you're saying is maybe I don't want to see what they would do to make a cotton candy machine. Probably not. At least not the first one. Make sure they work out the bugs first. See, maybe that's the purpose of the carnival.
00:30:18
Speaker
They all think it's from morale, but it's just to use the employees as test subjects like aperture science or something. Now I feel bad for the goblins on Ravnica too. That's fine. They'll all be united under Cranko soon enough. If it ever actually comes up, I don't want to say it. I can't really speculate anymore. I know. So I am curious what that
00:30:43
Speaker
You know, like, cause I think of you from old, you're thinking of like 2015 to 2018, Jay and Ellie, who was the speculator in chief. Yeah. Yeah. Like that was kind of the role, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of a big shift for you to like not really be able to at this point, because like, just like you've got
00:31:09
Speaker
Let's take NDAs out of it. Like you have a mind that is, that enjoys like speculation. And so that means that there's some amount that even without extra knowledge you may hit. But now like that's very dangerous. Like you can't do it. So, so, okay. Let me, let me put this a different way. I can do it. I just can't tell you I'm doing it with the Watsy folks.
00:31:37
Speaker
Fair. OK. Yeah. So so like, yeah, my connections and things are coming into play. All that stuff is coming into play with what I'm working on, like in terms of the boom comic and the web fiction and all that stuff.
00:31:54
Speaker
So I'm getting to do a lot of that. I just can't do it publicly because I basically I mean, when it comes to story stuff, I basically know like everything that has been written for the future so far. So I can't like it's hard for me to speculate because people people really run with what I say. Like I'm not sure I'm
00:32:21
Speaker
I have to go back and I've been I was asked when I first started not to not to do the speculation thing anymore but I think it was a very I think it was a very wise thing to ask me because people now that I'm involved in things run really far with what I say sometimes like I have found random discord comments of mine cited on the wiki
00:32:41
Speaker
And I'm like, what is this? Like, this is an offhand comment on the wiki. It's like, cited in the Discord, cited on the wiki. Yeah. Not even be able to just kind of joke, right? Like publicly joke. Yeah. For instance, I joked about Urza being a war criminal with the upcoming brother's war thing. And I saw people talking about it in a, or someone talking about it in a Discord, like, oh, the lore master is saying this. This must mean this is the direction they're heading with it.
00:33:10
Speaker
It's possible that's the direction they're heading with it. Also, I just like to call Urzo a war criminal. That's also just something that you do. It's just stating facts. Like how Nicol Bolas did nothing wrong. He had a really bad upbringing with an older brother who was not the best.
00:33:31
Speaker
Um, that's all I can say. See, that's my nice is the whole or the spark thing so that he could recreate his glasses so that he could read his books in the meditation realm. Yes, it's established. And I'll also say I also try not to think about things too much until they are in a much more solid form.
Speculation Challenges with Insider Knowledge
00:33:53
Speaker
So, for instance, the the the the brothers were set. That's been revealed for for next year.
00:34:00
Speaker
I have known that they were looking at doing something with the Brothers War since I first basically started with doing contract stuff with WotC. And the first version I've seen is different from like
00:34:22
Speaker
stuff that's coming out. And that happens a lot, like a lot, a lot. So, you know, like what they're thinking of two years ago is different than what comes out in two years because it goes through a lot of different hands. Decisions are made that are the practical decisions are made from when things were just pie in a sky, creating a thing to be creative based on whatever.
00:34:52
Speaker
So, I also try not to think too much until I have seen where things are actually gonna go with something. Because otherwise, I think Mark Rosewater experiences this a lot because he's the only wizard staff who talks that much publicly about things. And Vorthos get upset with him pretty often because he frequently gets things wrong.
00:35:20
Speaker
But for him, no, but I mean, no, no, in fairness to him, like he is at he is in the meetings when they're first coming up with the idea and it iterates and changes and changes. And what he says was probably correct at some point, but trying to track that will drive you like insane, which is why I try not to like keep any of it in my head until we're in a much more
00:35:47
Speaker
final form because it's it's much more difficult being the continuity guy not when i see like three different drafts of something and have to remember which which of my recollections is the correct version but let me go back and double check this
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, we joke a little bit. I mean, I'm sure you've had the same experience with the Vorthos cast about time traveling, keeping track of what you recorded that hasn't been posted yet in order of episodes and things. And it's like, that's nothing compared to what happens for people working on sets and things like magic sets, because there's such a long run-up lead. And any creative pursuit, any creative thing, there's the initial version, and it goes through iterations and changes as it goes. And so, yeah, trying to keep track of all that.
00:36:31
Speaker
is it's ridiculous. I just I still think my favorite version of that is when we had Gavin on. And he talked about like going home one day and just like kind of like just like getting the hair that he was gonna like clean out his refrigerator. And he just starts like starts throwing things out and then literally had like the year wrong in his head. Yeah, working on different sets. And he thought all this stuff in his fridge was expired that was all fine.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, you're thinking about 2022 a whole lot. I will tell you, I'm glad they just revealed everything when they did. So you're probably not on planes of the multiverse yet, but like the Kamegawa section in planes of the multiverse. If you want to have me back on to talk about that, when you actually talk about that, I'll talk about more, but like.
00:37:23
Speaker
that went through a lot of iterations, especially with like whether or not to include anything from the new set. So basically it would only have been artwork that has now been previewed. Like you've seen it in the slideshow, but to show, but it wasn't clear when this book would come out versus when
00:37:43
Speaker
things would actually be uh previewed and it just happened to work out like sick one this happened to me with legends too i don't remember exactly what um where like the thing that was going to be like a scoop in the book like the first revelation um that they're like go back and forth and back and forth on whether or not this is going to actually be included uh and then finally the book ends up coming out like a day after they reveal it
00:38:11
Speaker
all of that, but they know that was gonna work out when they were working on this a year and a half ago, right?
Coordinating Book Content with Releases
00:38:18
Speaker
So, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's just the, and there too, you're dealing with all sorts of other things. You're dealing with the publisher, you're dealing with all the things required, all the logistics required to get that done, whatever's going on in WOTC with the various, when were we gonna make this reveal? They can have a plan of when, but then things might change that shifts it over time.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, just the fact that anyone is able to keep track of this and get us new magic sets, you know, every couple months or a few weeks, depending on what you're talking about and when is just impressive. And it's that's awesome. It happens in in terms of like so, for example, with like legends, when I was writing legends, I had gotten the World Guide for
00:39:04
Speaker
Uh, Korea, uh, like late in the process to include, cause they really wanted the, the Korea monsters in there and, um, general Kudrow and.
00:39:18
Speaker
So I wrote about it and I ended up including a character profile for General Kudrow that was like really positive, like he's the defender of humanity and this and that. And I get a note back, like I think I don't remember if it was Doug Beyer or James Wyatt, because both of them looked at the text on these books at various times going back. General Kudrow is the bad guy. I'm like, oh, OK, we're going with
00:39:45
Speaker
we're going with the the fascist uh anti-monster state okay i wasn't quite sure from the information i had whether what was going on with him but look i'll go ahead and fix that yeah i love that yeah that's great that sums it up so well yeah and so speaking of legends no sorry speaking of planes of the multiverse
00:40:13
Speaker
We're actually giving away a copy of your book, Jay. And yes, and on top of that, you, who just act completely surprised by me saying this, have agreed to have me send the book to you first to be personalized. Is that correct? Yeah, sure. Is that still on the table?
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we can do that. So what I did for my own giveaway is if you win, I'll let you guys figure out who wins. But if you win, you can request, just give me a request for a little piece of J artwork in there. It's not gonna be the greatest piece of art, but I will try and make it funny. And maybe goblin related. And I mean, if you want a goblin related, it can 100% be goblin related.
00:41:05
Speaker
And I will give you a little piece of art, sign my name, and send it off. I mean, this has just been awesome to actually get to sit down and talk to you, because I mean, we love your work on the Borthos cast. I mean, you all are, we consider ourselves more like the Malthos anyway, but also kind of the lore. We're kind of the, our goal has been to tie it to the real life a lot more.
00:41:29
Speaker
you know, being kind of our niche at this point. But I mean, it's been cast like yours in the work that you've done on like these books, like the fact that these visual guides even exist that really have been able to like inspire us.
Starting to Write Magic Books
00:41:43
Speaker
And I think that made something like anything we do possible. So I just realized the question that I never answered, which was how did I first come about working on these books? And the answer is basically,
00:41:57
Speaker
No one else had time internally to work on the sequel to Rise of the Gatewatch. Like it ended up being much more work. In addition to other things that were getting piled on, then they had anticipated and they were like, well, who do we know that can write a lot about all these different characters? Oh, how about the guy who is already like writing stuff for us and editing stuff for us as like the continuity guy?
00:42:26
Speaker
And that's how I got hired for these books. And so they introduced me to the to the publisher and recommended like if you want someone who has written a lot, you know, like at the time I had written.
00:42:37
Speaker
300,000 words on magic that I had published. That's that's hiring. Oh, yeah, I am closing in on half a million. Wow. Probably next year I will have. I'm not sure exactly. I have to go back and look at my I started tracking my my spreadsheet when I was up there, but I think I'm definitely over 400,000 at this point.
00:42:59
Speaker
I appreciate the other spreadsheet for this. That makes sense. Of course I do. I am the spreadsheet guy. That's my superpower. This is the spreadsheet. That is, no joke, I've actually saved lives with spreadsheets. That literally was the purpose of the spreadsheet. How many people can say they've saved lives because of spreadsheets they've created? Oh, man.
00:43:25
Speaker
Well, thank you once again. And I'm going to leave since you're not allowed to speculate or do anything. I'm just going to drop something. And that is my fact that the red herring is that the brother's war is actually about Ugin and Bolas.
00:43:41
Speaker
And that's our show for today. You can find the host on Twitter. Hopskew can be found at Hopskew, and Alex Newman can be found at Mel underscore comical. Send any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to at goblinmoorpod on Twitter, or email us at goblinmoorpodcast at email.com.
00:43:59
Speaker
If you want to support your friendly neighborhood gospel, the cast can be found at patreon.com. Opening and closing music by Vindergotten, who can be found on twitter at Vindergotten, or online at vindergotten.bandcamp.com. Logo art by Steven Raffaeo, who can be found on twitter at steve raffle.
00:44:21
Speaker
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing Vorthos content as well as magic content of all kinds. Check them out on Twitter at hipstersmtg or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you all for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.