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Indie Games
270 Plays3 years ago
Join Fraser (Satsunami) and Craig from the Beer and Chill Podcast as they discuss the wonderful world of indie games. From Hollow Knight to Castle Crashers, the list goes on as the duo discuss why you should look into this genre of hidden gems!
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Transcript
Introduction: Welcoming Craig to Chatsunami
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everyone, and welcome to the 11th episode of Chatsunami. My name's Satsunami, and today I am joined with my very good friend you may recognise from the Beer and Chill podcast, Craig. Hello there, thank you for joining me. Hello Satsunami, it's good to be here, streaming live from the Beer and Chill studio.
00:00:36
Speaker
at my side of course and uh journey on on this the wonderful twitch world today chatting about well i'll leave that to you because i'm getting i'm getting like a close vibe on him i'm going to stop start plugging um yeah yeah what we're chatting about today no no no the floor's all yours all right
00:00:54
Speaker
This is the Be It and Chill podcast now, the unofficial episode. Yeah, and get on here mate. If you want me to, yeah, I'm taking control.
Exploring the Indie Game Scene
00:01:05
Speaker
We're going to chime in at indie games. Yeah, you can see my face right now, but I would have just been like, no, no, go ahead, it's yours.
00:01:13
Speaker
So yeah, as Greg was pointing out there, we are going to be talking about the wonderful world of indie games. And yeah, it is. I have to admit, initially when you proposed the topic, I was like, I wonder how much you can actually get out of talking about indie games. And then the more we're kind of talking off stream about just the sheer amount of indie games that are there.
00:01:36
Speaker
There are, I mean the list alone that I've got and the list I think you said you have from your end are just, it's a large amount, spoilers. I'm not going to mention every game on this list but I'm sitting with about 25 games right now. They're my big hitters, they're like the 25 most important in the game.
Defining Indie Games
00:01:55
Speaker
yeah exactly it's just like oh my god this is gonna be this is gonna be a long one maybe so yeah before we get into talking about like our you know like our experiences i suppose with indie games and yeah basically what we think of them yeah i'm gonna throw a question to you first
00:02:12
Speaker
What would you say is the definition of an indie game? Because I know a lot of people, you know, when they think of an indie game, they would just think of like a kind of retro homage to, you know, like past games that are, you know, that are kind of more iconic and things like that. So how would you define it?
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah, ultimately it's down to the studio making it, and it's about what kind of larger corporations control them if they are totally independently making their own decisions. And that's what it's indie gaming. It's really fun because, yeah, you do get a lot of the common. If someone says indie gaming, you immediately do think of the 2D small child in a large universe trope, which is such a big one in indie gaming. A great one, which is why it gets used a lot. But yeah, really, it can be anything in it. It's fun because it's just to do with the studio making it.
00:03:00
Speaker
some games are indie sorry some games are retro some games are completely new concepts some games have got like super intense graphics like you know people usually think of like 16-bit graphics but no some of them that's graphics now you've got a lot of games that are licensed so you've got things like audio stuff of each in vector the finder 13th game i mentioned that so like it's a whole host of things now indie games are everywhere usually the price points a bit lower that's usually one way of telling and then yeah if i learn about the studio and trying to find out a bit about them they're kind of the two main things
00:03:30
Speaker
I mean, would you say that indie games have managed to shake off that reputation of being like, you were saying they're like being just 16-bit games, but I mean, especially when we were talking about it earlier, you know, it's just it's weird to think that there's so many variations of indie games. It's like it's not just one aesthetic. No, it's kind of crazy. And especially now that so many companies are supporting it, you've got
00:03:55
Speaker
like PlayStation, Nintendo, Microsoft, they all have their stores that just access, you know, every indie game on the planet. Esteem has just an unlimited library of indie games. It's really incredible to see the size, the scale of it now. And I actually just realised, looking at my list, I've not included things like, you know, we've got games like Fortnite and like PUBG that come out of nowhere.
Indie Games vs AAA Games
00:04:15
Speaker
And these like mongers and these games that grow up, thanks to the support of obviously our community, but these bigger companies hosting them. So there's so much variety.
00:04:24
Speaker
And I think a lot of people still maybe don't take indie games as serious because there is still a bit of a reputation. But I think the years coming up now, there's going to be more and more of a push now that people are going to just be like, not even be able to tell if some games are indie or not. You know what I mean? So I'll mention one of my talk games. I'm just going to mention it now. Hades came out last year. It was my Game of the Year last year. And that's an indie game and people have played it and don't even know it.
00:04:48
Speaker
It's a full-on, like, 100-hour experience. You couldn't tell it was an indie game unless you knew it, I don't think. Hades has been everywhere, though. Like, he genuinely would, with all the exposure it gets, you would never think it was like an indie game. Like, there's a lot of games like that. I mean, even before we were talking a little bit before we started tonight.
00:05:06
Speaker
And yeah, it's like, the amount of games you look at and you think, is that, because we were actually asking one another, we were talking about Little Nightmares as well. That was quite a prominent example. And it's a bit weird because I never, initially I didn't think of Little Nightmares as being an indie property. And then there's a lot of people who are putting it on their lists saying, oh yeah, it's definitely like, yes, it's the greatest indie game ever, you know, and you're kind of like,
00:05:36
Speaker
Is that even an indie game? Because I mean would you consider it an indie game? I'm really glad you brought this up because I asked you to before the scene started. No, cut that. So I'm going to say yes. A because I know the studio of a quite small studio and B because I've actually met a bunch of people that worked on the game and they wrote that EGX conference I like to go to and they had
00:06:01
Speaker
because they don't do many conferences. So you get two types of stands at these conferences typically. You have like, for the bigger games I should say, you have like EA who just send over the generic stand that they've got for every single show. And then you've got the smaller brands who can only go to like a couple of shows. So they'll pull out all the stops. So EGX, the year that Little Nightmares came out, they had people dressed as the chefs running around screaming at people. And they had one of the girls dressed as
00:06:25
Speaker
What's the wee girl's name again? I don't know if she has a name. The one with the yellow jacket. Anyway, she was like climbing up. Yeah, she was like climbing on top of the on top of the stand. Just like, you know, ten foot in the air and walking around the top of it to hide from the chefs. And also so funny. So they were just like running about like on the floor. Yeah. Incredible. And they were giving out sweets as well, which I don't know if I should have taken one because it was from that chef. All I'm thinking is like how sweaty that costume was.
00:06:55
Speaker
I'm sure there's a fan in there. I think it was huge. But that was kind of one thing I wanted to bring up. Just that, but also like one of the other sort of hallmarks of indie games is like that boots to the ground fan interaction. You know what I mean? Like when was the last time, I don't know, you'd be so often asked your opinion on a game that you played. Well, Hades, for example, had a massive long pre-release section where they sent it to fans and things got tweaked based on their feedback and all that.
00:07:22
Speaker
That's another big hallmark of indie games is the fan involvement. People feel like they've helped create this game. It does seem a lot more personal though, doesn't it? Yeah, I understand. Even when you look in websites like Instagram and things like that or Twitter, obviously you get fan art for a lot of games, especially like AAA ones and things like that.
00:07:42
Speaker
But I don't know, it seems a lot more... I wouldn't say personal, but you know what I mean? It seems like, as you said, a lot more interactive and I suppose a lot more likely that the makers of these games are going to see that kind of content. Yeah, I think it's about getting a personal connection as well though, if you don't know.
00:08:02
Speaker
I couldn't name anyone that worked on Star Wars Battlefront II as an example, but I could name me a couple of people that worked on some of the indie games. It's about building that connection with people. I think as well, the smaller your community is, the easier it is to interact. People do these fan art and they get like Hollow Knight, one of my favorite games. That's me starting in Hollow Knight. If everyone wants to buckle down, this is me for the next half now. I was going to say, this is my Hollow Knight podcast.
00:08:31
Speaker
It didn't take me long to get onto that. I was just a student the whole time. No, only 11 minutes. You know, you're doing well. I gave you 11 minutes to chat about how you wanted and it was like holiday, holiday, holiday. They have tons of fan art on their Twitter account, like retweet stuff and people, they'll go like things that people post. You know what I mean? They're actually interactive and that, I think that really helps build up your reputation. It helps people, if people see you're invested, they'll give you stuff back. You know what I mean? There's a good bit of give and take.
00:09:00
Speaker
And I suppose that kind of leads on quite well to our next point. So another question that I've got to you, and honestly I hope you don't feel as if you're on the spot here when I go to ask you this, but what would you say personally is the difference? Other than the obvious budget and the amount of resources they've got, what would you say is one of the main differences between an indie game versus a triple A title
00:09:28
Speaker
you said they are like more interaction and kind of feeling more personal but what else would you like say is a difference? So one thing I like to talk about when it comes to indie games is I think you get to follow a person's vision a lot more. It actually kind of ties into this personal side of it but it's personal in the sense of it's a team's vision and it gets to get ran to completion. So obviously you're gonna get indie games that don't play very well. So you know the
00:09:54
Speaker
There's something kind of different, but you see games like Cyberpunk or Mass Effect, Andromeda, Pokémon Sword and Shield, all these games that come out and people don't like them when they come out because they've had tons of features cut or they're full of bugs and that's a part of what gaming is becoming because games are so complicated and people are on such a strict time schedule. This isn't a weird side effect that's going to go away. Games being released buggy is going to be the future.
00:10:22
Speaker
because of strict time limits, people making money off us and I feel like indie gaming you get a chance to really... people they don't have to release games on time because there's no you know stockholders holding them to it or there's no they've got time to interrupt the fans and explain to them why they're late you know like that kind of personal relationship and so Hollow Knight again as a great example they went to make a DLC pack for a secondary character and they worked on it and worked on it and worked on it and went
00:10:49
Speaker
Oh my god we've got a whole new game here. Do you mind if we have a year off and we're going to make this a full game and that's what they've done? They gave a bunch of feed they'll see out for Hollow Knight that wasn't this extra bit they were working on and then they've gone and announced a whole new game. Yeah and that's been delayed. Blame, blame, blame 2020. That kind of, to me it's the care.
00:11:08
Speaker
And you can tell something, I think so anyway, you can tell when something's just one person's gone, I really, really like XYZ in a game and I'm going to make a game with that in it. You know what I mean? Especially like a lot of the retro games, you know, we're looking at things like, I don't know, Stardew Valley is an example, but if we're not really farming simulators, let's just build the best one we can and we'll patch it every so often and we'll bring people into it and give us feedback. And you get this almost a strife of perfection with a lot of games.
00:11:36
Speaker
which I don't think you quite see in a lot of AAA titles. I mean, I do agree. I think that if it's a big company, like going back to what you were saying with Nintendo, Cyberpunk or whatever games, despite the controversy, they've definitely got a framework for
00:11:57
Speaker
What they need to you know, kind of bring out and they've discussed like what would be best what would probably I mean I'm not like for a minute saying like I'm a fly in the wall on these meetings to be like, well, yes, that's what they talk about Like you're a Vincent adult man from Bojack. It's like yes business business But yeah, it's they have to kind of fit it in the framework because I think maybe it's just this is me speculating but I think it's probably just because they've gotten so big and
00:12:27
Speaker
that this is their brand. You know, it's like they've established themselves as, whether it's Nintendo or Microsoft, you know, like certain games establish themselves in a certain way. So the bigger they get, the kind of the more restricted almost they become sometimes. Not always the case, but usually
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, especially for like money makers and things like that. Yeah, I was just going to say, no, I just totally agree. What I was going to say is especially games that are on a yearly release, you know, you've got your FIFA, you've got Pokemon doing yearly releases now, Call of Duty's got that two-year flip cycle thing that it does.
00:13:04
Speaker
You've got this whole built-in time that the game has to come out to meet this deadline. And I think a game like a FIFA game, obviously they've got all the licenses, which gives them a huge advantage, but it's not the best football game out there. And people will find that out if they go looking at other sports games in the indie market. There's better games of the same genre.
00:13:24
Speaker
and yeah it's that kind of because I think I talked about this last week with Adam when we were talking about gaming sequels that like we didn't really want to see and like the kind of downfalls of that and one of the things we talked about probably for length now that I think about it was just this idea of a lot of games kind of being very like set in their ways if you know what I mean just kind of being like
00:13:48
Speaker
right okay we've got a winning formula this is how we're gonna go forward kind of thing and don't get me wrong maybe that is the safe way this is the thing i think quite interesting and sorry for kind of going back to like pokemon or something but you know it's like
00:14:04
Speaker
is probably the best example because whenever they make like a spin-off or something kind of, you know, when they make a spin-off or something that's not part of the core games, whoever makes it, like for instance Pokémon Snap is being made by, is it Bandai Namco I think?
Creative Freedom in Indie Games
00:14:21
Speaker
And I think for the new one anyway. And because of that I think they'll have like a lot more leeway to kind of add what they want
00:14:30
Speaker
And it's the same with Pokemon Colosseum, because I don't think that was Game Freak either. I think I was Genius Roditey or something like that. I was going to mention Pokkin. That was really well received and they got to really just tighten up a whole combat system that they built in from scratch.
00:14:46
Speaker
and exactly it's that kind of like yeah it's just because someone else is doing it you know that's probably not going to be the money maker but if it is a money maker then like that that's still great either way but you know it's like they can kind of distance themselves and say oh no that wasn't us that game was with us that's the thing we're shouting at a multi-million dollar company though aren't we it's one of those things it's like oh yeah oh yeah get you know get stuff pokemon but uh
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, we're obviously not making as much money as Game Freak. Why risk it? I suppose the whole phrase, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But looking back to indie games, it's really interesting to see the difference between, as we were saying, that kind of framework of, especially, as you said, for
00:15:34
Speaker
yearly series like Call of Duty, FIFA, that kind of thing, compared to ones that actually have a chance to come out and do their own thing. One of the examples I can think of is an innocent game that I'm glad Adam isn't co-hosting on this one because he probably would be groaning heavily, but Castle Crashers
00:15:52
Speaker
Castle Crashers is one that I discovered during university and it was one of my flatmates who came in and he was like oh do you want to play this you know this game that I've got my Xbox D60? I was like yeah sure what is it and it was this kind of cartoony beat him up game with like these knights and it had like a lot of humor and everything to it.
00:16:11
Speaker
and I was like I don't know you know like I've never heard of this game not sure if it's gonna be any good and in all seriousness it is one of my favorite games of all time because it just seems as if these guys like didn't you know it's like they just made the game they wanted to make and
00:16:30
Speaker
yeah they just went for it but the weird thing is like the same people who made that went on to make a platforming game called Battle Block Theatre so see both of these games couldn't recommend them highly enough like between the humour and just i don't know i just really enjoyed myself with them i thought they were absolutely great games but
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's like they're both two completely different games. I mean, they're kind of a similar aesthetic, like kind of the drawing characters that you play as, but they're both different genres. And I think if Castle Crashers had been like this multi-million company product, I think maybe you're like a really triple-A game. I think that we would probably be getting Castle Crashers too, or maybe they would be milking it like Minecraft.
Personal Indie Game Experiences
00:17:16
Speaker
Just like Castle Crashers 5, Update 12, you know, it's like... It probably wouldn't look like Castle Crashers, though. It would look like Devil May... I'm just going to give the closest adjacent example, like Devil May Cry or Bennett or something. It wouldn't be like a 2D throwback. Hack and slash, you know, it's based off like the old arcade hack and slashes, isn't it? So it's like the Teenage Mutant Turtles and all that.
00:17:40
Speaker
if it was to be a big patch of play. It wouldn't have any of the same DNA. They wouldn't arrest making a retro game. They would have made it in the... I think it was like 2010 or something. They would have made it like a God of War game or something. That kind of thing.
00:17:55
Speaker
Any of you listening have played Castle Crashers? You'll know it's a very cartoony kind of game, both in the way the characters are drawing and everything. And I'm just imagining one of those horrible, hyper-realistic Unity engine models. It's like Unreal Engine.
00:18:15
Speaker
I was just like, no, no, I couldn't, I couldn't not play it. I don't know, I feel as if I'd be betraying the original game. I'd just be like... Could you imagine the trailer for it though? Oh no. What, you mean? Four brothers! In the world! New world! The castle! Oh, that would be... Castle crashes.
00:18:33
Speaker
It actually reminds me of, this is a kind of slight tangent here, but have you ever seen that comic where it's the guy who goes to the cinema and he sees that they're making that game a film of his favourite game and it's like his favourite game's blue and he goes to the cinema and he's like oh boy I can't wait to see this film based off my favourite game blue and he goes to the cinema and the screen just flashes red and it's just got the word BLUE!
00:18:58
Speaker
And it's just like, it's just like gasping. It's a bit like that. It's just like, yeah, they just don't get the point. Another question that kind of falls up from this beyond us like bashing, you know, multi-million dollar corporations. Why don't you apply to my emails and attend? I've got so many great ideas. You know the amount of times I've acted at them and they just, yeah, I'm like, I've got great ideas for Pokémon.
00:19:28
Speaker
What if we brought back sprites? That's why I'm blocked now. Don't worry, I'll cut this out in post. That's fine, it saves me going into my rant about why Ice Type has so many weaknesses. Oh god, don't get me started. Moving on. So yeah, moving on. What would you say, and this is a question I was actually inspired by what you were talking about with Indie Games.
00:19:55
Speaker
So what genres would you say work best within the games? Because the only reason I'm kind of thinking of this is because when I was asking you about ideas for this episode you were kind of given some different genres like multiplayer, platforming, things like that and I mean that is quite an interesting question because as we were saying at the very beginning you think
00:20:18
Speaker
are indie games just restricted to like one thing or yeah are they a multitude of things and obviously as we've established that they do come in many forms so yeah what would you say works best with indie games? It's funny because if you'd asked me this question a year ago I would have said you know you're 2D platforms you're Castlevania style games like Hollow Knight, Bloodstained, Virtual Knight
00:20:44
Speaker
Shovel Knight. A lot of knights. Like a lot of small scale games, like 2D games. Cuphead's another great example of that. But seeing the last couple of years, these things have really exploded in terms of especially things like not to put too much of my geek hat on here, but I've done a bit of work on personal work on the Unreal 4 engine. I tried to make a game a few years ago.
00:21:08
Speaker
and the most unreal just keep providing more and more and more stuff and you're seeing people now that can make because like I said two years ago if you're asking this question I would have said no first person shooters, indie games can't do them you're seeing them coming out now like super hot is the obvious example it's more of a puzzle game but there's that one that came out called the EDM
00:21:25
Speaker
oh yeah came out and it was like a rhythm shooting game with like doom style graphics that's incredible um i think it was made by like a tiny team you got games like my personal favorite um one of my favorite games ever uh journey on the ps3 era that kind of timeline um made by i think they called that game company this game company one of those funny things and that was like a
00:21:45
Speaker
3D platformer puzzle. Usually these puzzle games, but these puzzle games are 2D platforms, but everything's getting really done now. There's RPG games that are made by indie developers, obviously Undertale, but Ubisoft, Montreal, published Child of Light, which is almost like a Final Fantasy game, but done over 20 hours.
00:22:02
Speaker
and so there's so many now and it's like I couldn't even give you one genre and a lot of just like every genre now has been like being done there's so many things that once upon a time where I said out of scale you know that there's so much scale in some of these games but now with all the the amazing engines that people are doing the groundwork people leaving behind it's it's possible to do so much now in the game it's incredible
00:22:22
Speaker
God, there's just so much to talk about when it comes to the different genre. Because as we were saying before, you would kind of... I mean, do you think there still is a reductionist kind of view of indie games as one genre? Do you think some people look down on it and be like, oh, all indie games are kind of the same?
00:22:40
Speaker
I don't know if people look down on it or just so much don't understand it. I think there's people who probably, you know, the fact that how game sales work show you for themselves, you know what I mean? That people buy, they have to play games and buy indie games every year. But I think, I think a lot of people in streaming, you know, people like yourself have a lot to, have a lot to, the Antipope are popularising indie games. So like this game's now like Among Us or Fall Guys or PUBG. I think that was an indie game, I'm sure it was because it was in Early Access, wasn't it?
00:23:08
Speaker
all those kind of games like I don't think people know a lot of people don't know anymore what an indie game even is that line is so bloody when it comes to like suddenly these massive games are exploding I get egg getting over it as well as another great example of just like a game that was just like someone's someone's hobby or project and then all of a sudden it becomes the biggest game in the world and people like holy crap what the hell
00:23:28
Speaker
So that's the point I think some people probably still do but I think that line of like what is an indie game has become so thin I think a lot of people are playing indie games that even realise it. I mean just look at like some of the most as you were saying like look at some of the most popular games on Twitch just now or
00:23:44
Speaker
at least last
Indie Games and Streaming Platforms
00:23:45
Speaker
year. As you were saying, we had Among Us, Fall Guys, and one of the ones I've actually got on my list, thank goodness, is Phasmophobia, which I played myself. And yeah, it's insane how popular some of these games were. Even before they were released to everyone else, I think in the case of Fall Guys, although I could be wrong on this, I think they gave out exclusive keys to the game to certain streamers before it became public.
00:24:11
Speaker
like obviously that's a great tactic on their part but it just shows you like the influence as well that people can have because it's actually quite funny i was thinking about this just as you were talking there and i remember like years ago when obviously a time before 2020 where i used to come and visit you and it almost felt as if in a good way i'm saying this in a very good way but it felt as if like every month or so whenever i came to visit you you would always be playing like a different indie game
00:24:41
Speaker
So yeah, it would be like one time it would be, you know, Crip to the Necro dancer, like a great ha ha, an upbeat game, which it literally is, it's a rhythm game. And then like another time you'd be playing Untitled Goose Game and yeah, great game as well. And I mean, one of the other ones I remember, I think probably when we went to visit Adam one time is when we played Overcooked.
00:25:05
Speaker
And honestly, oh, and Human Fall Flat, let's not forget that. But let's forget that. Yeah, let's go play that with you guys, man. Yeah, let's say. Growing game, but not with you guys. I don't think anybody's had a positive thing to say about it after the first couple of levels. I think people have just said, yeah, don't forget this game. It's incredible, but don't play it with people that will stress you out.
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah. It's just such a weird game. But it's one thing, one thing you kind of sort of half mentioned there is kind of what is going on real quick. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned playing games with me and that's to me, that's one of the major things about indie gaming that I do want to touch on. Yeah. Is the world of co-op, is coach co-op is still very, very much alive in indie gaming.
00:25:54
Speaker
And I feel like that's something that's really not supported anyone to play games. Even like the Nintendo Switch, I've got that and that whole gimmick is that it's got two controls and I'm playing a bunch of games and it's like, you've got player one and the baby controller. You know what I mean? Like, Mario Odyssey is a great example where it's like, you're the hat. Yeah, you can play as the hat. That's fun, isn't it?
00:26:16
Speaker
Not really. But games like Overcooked is an example. I'm actually playing that through with my wife again right now. We start with starting our Overcooked journey together again and we survived it once already. So this is the post lockdown attempt.
00:26:31
Speaker
Like that game puts you on equal footing and there is no room to like bubble out in your, oh no, I'm playing the hat. It's up to you what you do. You two are both part of a team and I've loved that in games and I really feel like Goose Game got an update with co-op in it just to mention Goose Game again.
00:26:48
Speaker
but I just love that that's still such a big thing and I feel like so many to play games don't let you do couch co-op and it's such a shame when it's so such a big part of gaming for me. I remember I think it could have been Halo 5 and I could be totally wrong on this but it was like one of these like really popular shooter games that really I'm sure it was Halo 5 or something or maybe it was like one of the like Halo 4 it was one of these ones where they said they were going to get rid of the split screen because they were just like
00:27:18
Speaker
and everyone plays online, no one really wants to do it anymore. And it's so weird, because as you were saying, with indie games there is quite a lot of emphasis on multiplayer. I mean look at the games I mentioned earlier, totally not gushing over these games, but like Castle Crashers and Battle Break Theatre,
00:27:38
Speaker
Those are two games you can play by yourself. You can go away, play through it, have a great time. But if you want to play with friends or you've got friends over, you can go at it and just play through it as this co-op experience. And it is very nostalgic because I don't want to cut this out for being old.
Nostalgia and Personal Connections in Indie Games
00:28:02
Speaker
Back in my day. Yeah, back in our day. But I mean, you do remember a time where, you know, there wasn't really online gaming, which I'm not saying we were like the Atari generation. Well, not that old. But you know, it's like we came from a time where it was like, we do remember before, you know, you went over to somebody's house or like a friend's house and you played these games and
00:28:24
Speaker
It was a lot of fun and you know obviously that's where the mad cat controller memes come from where it's like the kid turning round to his friend saying oh you can be player too and they give them like this horrible beat up you know controller like stuck together with duct tape and all the Cheeto dust and things on it you're like oh no no no it's like dark times whereas yeah whereas now you can get your own Cheeto dust on you
00:28:51
Speaker
on your own controller at a safe distance and it's like I have to admit like those were some like really great times you know just being able to play those games with friends and kind of going back to that time and because it is like I mean I have spoke about this I think in a couple of past episodes but it's like some games like for instance Call of Duty if you're over at someone's house and you're watching them play it it's a game that is a lot more exciting to play
00:29:19
Speaker
than it is to watch because I mean I have been over where people have been playing games and I've just been like really bored kind of looking back and oh yeah that's cool yeah you shot the guy yeah like you know obviously unless it's like you know they've just bought the game and you're kind of doing it for moral support
00:29:37
Speaker
to be like, yay, well done. But with Indie Game, and I'm not saying like all Indie games do this, but there is a huge majority of them that provide this opportunity. And I mean, look at Phasmophobia. I mean, that game, although it's still technically, is it still an alpha?
00:29:54
Speaker
or beta. I don't believe so yes, still pre-release. Yeah like even still despite that I mean I definitely got my money's worth out of it and being able to just like say to your friends oh yeah I'm logging in to go hunt some ghosts. They're like wait what no come back why would you do this to me?
00:30:14
Speaker
So, yeah, it's just amazing how far, you know, they've come along. And that is the thing as well. Obviously, not in this year. You're not going to be inviting people over, but it's the fact that you can do that if you wanted. And there's a lot of people, you know, obviously everyone's different, but there's people who hold my families. And I think of times when my brother used to play games again, I think, like now sitting there with, I don't know, a PS5 and he's got two games and they're both single player. And as a family, I don't know, three people.
00:30:43
Speaker
And it's like, this thing takes four controllers, but all the games are only one player, you know what I mean? It seems strange. And I really would like to play games with my wife, but there's so few games where I think you get put on equal footing, like I was saying, a bit overcooked, where you're in equal footing and you're working together. We're going to play Cuphead, I think, and we're going to try to convince her to play that, but I'm scared I will get angry at that one because it's so difficult.
00:31:07
Speaker
Like that's kind of, and for me, that couch co-op will never go away. Yeah, people aren't getting to play this year. You're totally right. And, you know, I've so missed that thing of bringing people over and playing games like, you know, these court games. But these families are always going to, you know, be playing games and getting a chance for families to get to play games together. To me, that's such a cool thing.
00:31:25
Speaker
that's important as well because I mean I was going to go on and say like how it's a good team building exercise and then I remembered Among Us and yeah I retract that statement your honor. But no jokes aside it is just such a good experience to go through with your friends and just
00:31:44
Speaker
You know, just even having that option. Like I'm not saying every single game has to have. I mean, does Hollow Knight have like a multiplayer thing? Or is that just like a true? Yeah. Total single player. Yeah. I mean, it's okay. Like I'm not saying like, as I was saying, every indie game has to have a multiplayer as well. But again, it just goes back to the idea of how diverse indie games can be. Like it doesn't just have to be like a single player. It can be, you know, as you said, like couch co-op or
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah just anything you want really. Like I'm sure there's like taste for everyone. I mean it's a bit like you know how you get those people like this is me bringing out the Anderson Scott and maybe you know how you get people with whiskey tasting they say like there's always a whiskey out there for you or something like that and it is it's like there's always like an indie game even when you look at like some of the picks of art one do you think oh maybe this game's not for me it's like maybe you don't have to kind of rely on that like you don't have to play Overcooked to enjoy
00:32:40
Speaker
indie games it's like you could just like be perfectly happy in a whole night or if you're you know you hate yourself super Meat Boy. I love that game. See I think it's a good game but it's just so just for context I went back to play it just
00:32:59
Speaker
just off stream just by myself and yeah when i got to the first boss i got my ass absolutely handed to me and i think it was probably just because i was absolutely shattered that day and i was just like yeah you know what forget this game excuse excuses excuses you got your ass kicked
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah, so hold on, I'm just googling how I can actually cut this off a live stream. How to reverse time. I want to just back onto that because I think he's talking about there's games that they've won. I think one of the things I love about indie games is they'll take a game that you may be enjoyed as a kid and evolve it. We spoke about this before I think on Being Chill podcast, we did the PS1 memories.
00:33:41
Speaker
And we spoke about a lot of games that were great, but the game itself aged, you know, quality of life just wasn't a bigger thing in the PS1, you know, like inventory management or, you know, like, I always think of like the Game Boy Pokemon games, but it's like, you've got, what is it, a hundred items in your bag and just that's it. You've got no other choice. So like, things like a Shovel Knight as an example, you've got this really retro game, and maybe you really enjoyed 2D platforms as a kid.
00:34:07
Speaker
But by the way, now you can save in between levels. And now there's a stick sequence. And to me, that's a really important thing. Yeah, you can revisit the games you put as a kid, but you can revisit them with all the help of it. The gaming has brought us along. You don't have to go back to the PS1 and play a game that doesn't really work.
00:34:28
Speaker
That's not fair, but you know what I mean? Games have come on, they have improved, and a lot of indie games harken back to that, but bring that quality of life along with it, and I think that to me is such a big thing as well. So yeah, there may not be a game out there, there will be an indie game out there for you, because there will be an indie game based off of your favourite game, the chances are.
00:34:46
Speaker
Because someone's going to message me now like, oh, there's no indie game based off of like, Bobby, the Explorer 7 or something. Well funny you should mention that, couldn't I? I'm joking. I was going to say Bobby Explorer 8. I was just going to say Castle Crashers, like why bother with Barbie? Just go for Castle Crashers.
00:35:05
Speaker
Well funnily enough, a lot of people say that Hollow Knight was a sequel to that. Oh, that is true, yeah. So if you want to understand the deep and ritual lore of it, of Barbie's, you know, whatever. I forgot the name of what it is. Yeah, I forgot what I called it. Yeah, it's like Barbie's whatever, yeah. Yeah, play Castle Crashers and then you play Hollow Knight because they've both got knights in them, so it must be the same story. Must be related. Yeah, absolutely, you know. Something's something pixels, yeah.
00:35:37
Speaker
A couple of franchises have died over the years and people still yearn for them. So off the top of my head, Castlevania. I don't know what happened to that. I'm not in on the inner politics of how games companies work, but I know that the people that made the game start making the games.
00:35:53
Speaker
And the director of the creator of these games now is an indie developer and made, I think it's Bodsteined, which for the night is called. Is it Bodsteined? Well, one of these games I know. Or, you know, they've gone off and they get a chance to make the continuous franchise ended early. And that's another really cool thing. I just wanted to bring that up. So even if you've followed a franchise and you're like, oh, man, it'd be so great if there's a Castlevania sequel. There is. So go play it. You just need to go find out what happened to it.
00:36:20
Speaker
They don't make Castlevania games anymore, do they? No, like I said, something happened and they start making them. Kind of ironic considering it's all about vampires, is it not? Yeah. Ain't no rising from that one. Yeah, on behalf of Chatsunami, I apologise to any Castlevania fans out there.
00:36:45
Speaker
I was kind of going back to what you were saying there when you were saying that games can kind of learn from the past and it doesn't necessarily have to be you have to stick to those mechanics like you were saying for Pokemon where you know oh you can only have so many items in your bag
00:37:05
Speaker
And I think a lot of RPGs at the time did that as well.
Alternative Gaming Experiences: Temtem and More
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah. And where it was like, obviously because of space, I'm assuming it was like a memory thing. Yeah, you know, it was tougher to make games back then. Yeah. You know, you're on a tidy cartridge. Give them the benefit they do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, as you were saying, like.
00:37:23
Speaker
or what we were saying at the beginning when we were talking about Pokémon especially or just any of these franchises that kind of go on and they kind of get set in their ways or they kind of spice it up a bit with like the extra feature or two and then they'll you know they'll rein it in for the core gameplay and things. So one of the examples which you actually reminded me of just before we started the stream was Temtem and I do think that is like a really both an interest and like take
00:37:53
Speaker
on. So if you look at Pokémon and it's supposed to extend any other popular game of a genre where it's like almost as if they've capitalized that corner of it. So it's like especially Pokémon and I don't want to keep ranting about it but you know that way but it's like with FIFA or Pokémon or whatever people will kind of complain about it and say oh this is rubbish and think that there's no alternatives.
00:38:18
Speaker
and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying time-time is like the saviour that's going to swoop in and correct all the wrongs because I have played a couple hours of it and I absolutely loved it. The changes they made were just different. I mean technically the core mechanics are the same. You catch monsters, you beat up random children and adults. You steal their money.
00:38:43
Speaker
it's just the only difference is the things you catch them in they're like digital cards you know like small changes like that but they do like they make tweaks to it just enough like there's an item in the game that essentially acts as a portable pokemon center almost where you can just heal
00:39:00
Speaker
all your creatures while you're out in the wild just so it you know like it'll keep you going or it'll give you enough strength to like get back with everyone kind of limping and like small changes like that i thought were really interesting whereas it seems as if with games like pokemon or you know just any you know triple a kind of huge franchise
00:39:20
Speaker
you know they're obviously kind of setting their ways and I do think it is quite an interesting take that they are kind of picking up on the things that fans are like asking for or not even asking for but like noticing like these small things. A lot of time these people are fans themselves you know the guys that probably make Tim Tim are probably massive Pokemon fans and went
00:39:40
Speaker
Man, I love this game so much. These games aren't supposed to be insults, they're tributes. I really love Pokemon, but I wish I could hear one outside of battle fully in one item. You know what I mean? That's such an obvious thing. Oh, no, I just need to use six hyper potions instead. No, let's just have a Pokemon set item. Fade of Fancy Nines had it. Fade of Fancy Nines had it. Yeah, Fade of Fancy Nines had it. But in Pokemon, why is it not there? It's from a place I love a lot of this, and a lot of these people are fans and they just want to help.
00:40:08
Speaker
make the game better so how do you do it? Yeah you make your own. Do you know funny enough actually, that actually reminded me of I can't remember his name but there was a pokemon youtuber who he used to make like all of these fan videos based off of like fake regions so he'd like pick a country and be like what pokemon would be like if it was set in Italy or if it was set in
00:40:30
Speaker
you know like different places like Australia, West America, things like that and he would basically like have hours of content where he'd be like these are the kind of Pokémon you would find this is a story and they would go through the entire like play-by-play of what would happen if you played like this fictional game like really into it and then like he had this idea where I mean it was really interesting like this guy was really passionate and
00:40:57
Speaker
he had this idea of, like, he had this evil team he came up with and then that soon evolved. Like, one day, you know, on his channel he was just like, initially he was like, oh, I wonder if this would make a good fan game because he was talking about what his dream Pokémon fan game would be and now he's developing his own game.
00:41:17
Speaker
because of that but because he's had all these ideas and he's worked on it and it's as you said it's it seems as if it's from a place of love it's not like he's just seen it and he's said oh i'm gonna knock that off and you know it's gonna be called digimon wait no you know now i'm kidding i'm kidding i swear i can say that i bought a digimon game and i still haven't played i really want you to play as well because
00:41:46
Speaker
I know it's like 100 hours and I can't reward committing to that if it's not good. I really want you to play it so you can tell me. I know. I'll need to play it on stream. Definitely. I've got it on the to-do list of games to play on the stream. There's kind of sitting there gathering digital dust and I'm like, soon. Soon. It'll be in the next game eventually and then I'll end up playing more Fall Guys and being like, oh no.
00:42:09
Speaker
What am I doing? So kind of like the final question to sum up this, you know, to sum up this wide topic.
Inclusivity and Trends in Indie Games
00:42:19
Speaker
What would you say, in general, I think we've touched on a couple of the points, but what would you say makes an indie game stand out compared to like just your run of the mill game that's produced by, you know, like EA, Bethesda, that kind of thing?
00:42:34
Speaker
There's a few things I've not really touched on, so I'm going to try and touch it. This is like my sprint down the lane. I'm going to hit every single thing. No, go for it. One thing I think really, really is really important is to play games take a long time to make. Cyberpunk's been in development for four or five years before it comes out. So they're quite detached from modern society. This is even films. They're always a few years behind what's actually happened in the world, where indie games take a lot shorter.
00:43:01
Speaker
And I think, I might be wrong, but off the top of my head, the first LGBT characters were all in indie games. The first characters were like, disabilities were in indie games. There's a lot more of like, indie games can be a lot more inclusive in terms of their storytelling, because they don't have to go through six years of development. You don't have to go through a focus group to get to, you know, and you don't have to go through all this to get to the end product. And I think that's super important to tell a lot of these stories from one or two people.
00:43:27
Speaker
And again, it comes back to detail, but finding people like you who are telling stories is so important. And I think with these giant corporations and it's like, you can't really tell who's telling the story behind it. And I think that's really, really important to me. Letting anyone get representation in games is so important. I think like Night in the Woods and Celeste off the top of my head are both games with LGBT characters in it. It's super cool. Also, you've got like the Vici and Vector game that was made by Vici. Before he passed and a lot of the games profits went to charity. Again, something that
00:43:56
Speaker
you can't really do for a massive company because you've got to pay wages. Like, you know, I'm not going to be ridiculous, I'm not saying you should be giving all the money away, you have to pay your wages, you're a massive company. Games like Avicii and Vector, they donated a lot of money to, I've forgotten the name of it now, that's the shame, but it's the charity that was set up by Avicii's parents after passing the old, like that kind of thing, like that community is so important I think in gaming and I think it's something that is going to get as indie gaming can build up.
00:44:20
Speaker
these stories and these charities and the important reasons for making games. And you get things like the humble bundle as well now for a lot of indie games and a lot of that money goes to charity. So I think that's super important and I'm glad that so many people get a chance to play them. Just looking at my list now of all my games that I've written down. Really cool that games, I consider indie games as no expectation for them to be massive. And so a game can come out that's only got like one core mechanic and still be incredible. We mentioned Superhot, this core mechanic was time stopped except when you move. Brilliant.
00:44:48
Speaker
One that unfortunately had a bad release but here's really good now, No Man's Sky. Their whole gimmick was we've got an auto-generating planet, go have fun, like go see what the world's all about. Or Rogue Legacy for people that are into that kind of game. Rogue Legacy in general. They're just based on such a clever core concept. Oh and Concrete Genie which is the game of the month just now in the PlayStation you can download for free. That's just got like a core art thing and it's like I've really found that really interesting because it's like
00:45:12
Speaker
here's something we really really like and we've got a game around it and it doesn't always work in sometimes that you know sometimes better than others but you'll never see that in a triple-a game like you know you got games like um i remember i played assassin's creed syndicate and it was like um had everything in that game it was like base management there was assassinations there was character swap and there was a combo combat and so i was like oh my goodness i just want to play a game that gives me the chance to like learn a person
00:45:42
Speaker
Value for money.
Indie Game Values: Music and Creativity
00:45:44
Speaker
I'm just now reading bullet points. Value for money. Hollow Knight is taking up about 100 hours of my life, I think. I think I bought that for 15 quid when it came out. Again, some indie games are six hours long, some games are 100 hours long, but it's better than paying 60 quid for a game that's four hours long, like Sonic 06 or something. We don't talk about that in this stream. Too soon.
00:46:08
Speaker
But yeah, all I'm going to say at the end of that's kind of my main, I think all my points covered. I honestly go check it out because I think a lot of games are made by such passionate people and especially indie games. Yeah. Oh, one more thing I'm going to mention, music, because the budget is a bit lower if people can get really creative with things like music. So you've got games like we mentioned Crypt of the Necrodancer. That's got an incredible soundtrack of like 16 songs and then they remixed it. And so because they couldn't come up with new songs is like actually just remixes all over the game.
00:46:34
Speaker
So you play through the game once as the main character and it's all like 16-bit music and then there's a character that plays through it with like death metal. It's brilliant. It's the same songs but with like crushing guitars and there's like a dubstep one. It's brilliant. It's so good and one of my favourite games of all time, Journey.
00:46:51
Speaker
it brought that up earlier. I think it won a BAFTA or it was nominated for a BAFTA at least and I think it's like the first game ever to do it for its music because it's like it's all integrated into the the gameplay. I can't quite explain it without trying to sound like an absolute ditty but like as you progress through the game the music changes and everyone's just like cool that's how music works, great, well done. But it's like really integrated and really dynamic and it's super cool. Play Journey if you haven't played it.
00:47:16
Speaker
And I think that's, I think that was, I don't think I took a breath there. So I won't stop. But that is all the things I think about indie games that I didn't get to talk about. Now I was going to say, I expect the PowerPoint, you know, by Monday. Yeah, yeah. On the YouTube version, I was just like, here's all Craig's points. It's a brilliant font size six or something to fit it all on the screen. But yeah, I think that was it wasn't it?
00:47:44
Speaker
I had to say that. Nope, very good points I have to say. And I don't want to sound like a teacher saying. Yes. Well done Craig. Yes, the B plus you didn't mention, you didn't mention a whole night. I didn't mention bug fables again. Bug fables of course.
00:48:01
Speaker
I wanted to mention that because talking about games that have stopped being made for like, Castlevania, this is just one where the games take in a different direction so people don't really like the Paper Mario games anymore. I don't, well, sorry. People that I see online tend not to like Paper Mario, I'd never play them. Well, bug fables went, are we making a Paper Mario game without Mario in it?
00:48:19
Speaker
Here's bug fables, go enjoy that and it's broken me game. And people were like going absolutely crazy. They were like people Mario fans, but this is the sequel to 1000 year door that we never got. So even games that haven't ended, but I've just gone off in a different direction. There's an indie game out there for you. Oh, and that's my final point. There's an indie game out there for you and I'm pointing down the screen, but I don't have my webcam on, but you know.
00:48:39
Speaker
One day. We need you to play it in the games. Don't worry, I'll photoshop it later. I'm trying to point down and say, we need you. Give me the beard. Yeah, don't play that one. Oh god. Yeah, I'll need to beef up on my photoshop skills.
00:48:58
Speaker
No, I totally agree with all of that, and that sounds like a very cop-out answer of, yeah, I agree with that. Now, one of the other things, like one more thing to add to that was, and I know I've kind of like, I sound like a broken record at this point of being surprised, like the short Pikachu face of how versatile games can be, but one of the ones that
00:49:19
Speaker
I was really surprised at that. So, as you know, I hope around a lot on Twitch. And one of the streamers that I've been watching, Alex Blurry, he does a lot of indie games on his stream. And it's really surprising. A lot of games that he was playing, it was really surprising. Some of the ideas, there was literally one game that he played where it was just redecorating the house. And I can't remember what it was called.
00:49:49
Speaker
I can't actually remember off the top of my head, but literally just the idea of you go into this house, you have to tidy everything up and paint a wall. It's that Simpsons episode, I always thought of that when I was playing Animal Crossing.
00:50:06
Speaker
You know the Simpsons joke where Bart and Lisa won't do the garden. They go to the carnival when they see this VR machine for it. It's like the yard simulator or something. It's like, I want to go in the yard simulator.
00:50:24
Speaker
Marge is just really annoyed at it. It's just amazing how they can take an idea like that. I'm just getting the message there saying that it's House Flipper. It's just like a really comfy game. It's weird to say that like, oh you're watching someone re-decorating the house, but it is really interesting. Another one which again, this is like the power of streamers, was when I saw it was a game called Kind Words.
00:50:52
Speaker
I don't know, have you heard of this game? I honestly never hear it. I thought this was a new game, but it turns out it's a 2019 game because I looked this up quite quickly before the stream and I thought, oh, it must be a new thing.
00:51:07
Speaker
It's like yeah show my age be like oh it must be one of these new fangled indie games. If I didn't know it must have came out last week. Yeah my eyes were closed until I saw it so therefore I came out yesterday.
00:51:23
Speaker
But that game really shocked me in a good way, because I remember watching it thinking, basically the premise of the game is, if it's not really a game, that is like a whole debate in itself, but it's basically people write anonymous letters.
00:51:39
Speaker
just basically saying about their troubles or things they're going through and they want anonymous advice and basically they send out a letter and that gets sent out to whoever's playing the game at that time and they can decide whether or not they want to answer
Unique Concepts and Game Evolution
00:51:57
Speaker
it.
00:51:57
Speaker
So initially when I was watching Alex play this, I kind of thought, oh, you know, are these just, you know, made up scenarios? You know, like, because genuinely I didn't pick up initially that this was real people, like, kind of writing in, because I thought, it sounds stupid, but you know that way you're reading something and it's like, yeah, it's like, oh, it must be, you know, it's like, damn, these like computer generated problems are getting better.
00:52:24
Speaker
But yeah, it was just such a simple idea. And I honestly actually went out and bought it a couple of days later because I thought, okay, this sounds like an interesting game. And I went to play it and I feel weird saying play it.
00:52:40
Speaker
you know considering the content of the game but it's just a simple idea and especially with everything going on in 2020 or that did go on in 2020 and you know things that are still going on just now it almost seems like the kind of perfect place for people to vent and a lot of because I mean just the kind of curiosity like I sent a couple letters myself and the amount of
00:53:05
Speaker
of people who came back with like just such genuine and very positive, you know, feedback. It wasn't just like, they weren't just saying, although I did get one person who, like out of curiosity I think I'd put something down like, how do you deal with like, you know, like a creative block or something and I think one person put scribble and that's all I put. And I was just like, I mean he's not wrong.
00:53:33
Speaker
Yeah, maybe that was like some key that unlocked there. Yeah, it was just like grabbing the paper, Death Note style. It's like, oh my God. I actually, you said that, you actually got my brain going. It's something I did want to bring up. There was the whole concept of what a game even is, is being challenged by indie games in a way that AAA games would never do. And that's a brilliant example.
00:53:56
Speaker
a studio would never risk that. And I think of Firewatch as the other one that springs to mind where it's effectively a woken game with a story over the top. It's going out for a walk with a podcast and it's such an engaging game and it's brilliant. And this barrier of work as a game and like you say, especially for something in the world, even going forward and I think a lot of games that have letting people connect in new ways or letting people
00:54:21
Speaker
deal with like quite tough issues. Spiritfarer I think was another one that came out in the switch all about death and how to like let go of people as they pass on. It was like man this is crazy that these games are getting made. You know we come from like I don't think I do want to sound old. One of my first games was Desert Storm on the Sega Mega Drive Sonic the Hedgehog and Primal Rage which is where you could use dinosaurs to fight each other and it was like this I never expected this would happen in the world like
00:54:48
Speaker
And the games can become such a way of people connecting, but thanks to indie games, that's, you know, stories are getting told in a totally different and really mature way. Yeah. So I just really wanted to mention that, because, yeah, I did see that kind of words given it is a really clever idea.
00:55:03
Speaker
I honestly couldn't praise it enough. I think it's just such a good idea. And I mean, as you were saying there, I guess it just shows how games have evolved over the years. Like, it's just weird how it's gone from, you know, just a couple of pixels on a screen to this fully fledged, like, interactive experience. And it does. It shows like the potential that games can have
00:55:28
Speaker
It doesn't have to just be, as you were saying, it doesn't just have to be, you know, just a typical story about go to point A should be kind of thing. It doesn't have to be constricted. It can really be anything that wants. I mean, I'm just trying to think of any other, like, examples. I mean... Well, one example I've got is VR. Well, that's true. VR was first sort of coming out that was like full of indie titles. Chitty 3 off top of my head. No, of course. And I got VR.
00:55:58
Speaker
And like these games have really pushed in the boundary of what's possible because again, like I said, you've got, you know, a one, two year development time running some indie games. So they were able to really try what's coming up and coming. And a lot of concepts you'll see in an indie gaming in two years later or three years later will pop up in a Ubisoft game or whatever, you know, you know.
00:56:17
Speaker
These guys are on the forefront of technology, and I wouldn't be surprised if something like the Be Kind voice messaging system doesn't turn up in, I don't know, Spider-Man 3 or something like the PS5, you know what I mean? Because that's just how these games are working now.
00:56:31
Speaker
But yeah, indie games, do you get that insight into the future? Which is also really cool. And I mean, as well, it gives... So I don't know about you, but every so often, like, I'll go through a period where I really get into playing, like, a certain genre of game.
Indie Games as Comfort and Challenge
00:56:47
Speaker
Like, there'll be a period where I'm really into FPSs, and then I'll get tired of that, and then I'll move on to something like, you know, RPGs maybe, or Pokémon or whatever.
00:56:56
Speaker
and then or you know like I kind of alternate between that but there's some periods where you just get like a gaming burnout if you know what I mean as opposed to the driving game which yeah great game but
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's like you get this burnout where, you know, you kind of think, I don't really want to play games anymore. I just want to, you know, sit. I want to sit and read a book. But, you know, it's like flying. Yeah, I know. Perish the thought. But you know, it's like.
00:57:27
Speaker
And I was kind of talking to you about this, like just when you were saying about like walking simulators and things. So there's two games that come to mind with that. The first one being De Rester, which I did voice. I mean maybe I have to play it again.
00:57:43
Speaker
But I did voice my disinterest in it. I didn't think at the time it was great. Because this was like, I think I bought it during one of the Steam sales. And that was after me playing Porto and Gmod and things like that. Very like, maybe not for Gmod, but you know what I mean.
00:58:02
Speaker
fast-paced and kind of like interactive games if you know what I mean like having to think about it and then with D Rester it was like you just had to walk forward and I was like initially I was like really getting into it because I'm like oh what's going to be in here oh it's nothing oh what about here oh it's nothing oh I see a symbol
00:58:18
Speaker
is anything gonna pop out? Nothing happened and I was just like, so maybe I have to go back. Like I've only played it once for like an hour or two so maybe I'd have had to think I made the upper mark. Maybe I'll have to like go back and like give it a fair shot. The other one though is Stanley Parable. Or the THE Stanley Parable. Sorry, THE.
00:58:40
Speaker
With the Stanley Baraboo, which I did enjoy it, but I did feel as if it was very limited for what it was, but see at the same time though, not every game can be like, you know, 10 out of 10s kind of, you know, like it has to be like holding you 100%. Sometimes you just need a game like that just to have a break from like the fast pace shooting or...
00:59:02
Speaker
And it's like, not every game's a 10 out of 10 to you as well, you know? It's 10 to me. And so, one of my 10 out of 10 games I've brought up a few times on the chat and I will never shop about it. I've each, I've each in vector to see us for everything. You thought I was going to say Hall of Night and Hall of Night. But no, I've each in vector. That's the game for me that I'll just put on.
00:59:19
Speaker
Like, that's my, I don't know what you call it, my hot chocolate and marshmallows game. It's just like, I just need to sit and relax. I kinda don't want to play anything unless a fire up of each infected has surfed on that wee track and hit some buttons. You know what I mean? I think you're right. Sometimes you want a massive game and sometimes you just want something that's nice and just nice, you know what I mean? Like that kind of relaxing thing.
00:59:39
Speaker
Yeah, you want like a kind of comfort game. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think like games like Kind Words or... Yeah. You know, even even like a title goose game, you could you could relatively argue. Like, you know, if you've had a little stress all day and you want to, you know, release kind of some of that stress, it's like, yeah, what better way than to harass a small village as a goose? One of our one of our mutual friends, please don't name him on this team. Yeah, no, no. One of our mutual friends is a teacher.
01:00:08
Speaker
and see the bit where you get to bully the boy. Oh, he was loving that, wasn't he? Sometimes you text me and I just think about that kid losing his glasses and I laughed today. It's like a year after that. God. Like that was like something like this game is.
01:00:29
Speaker
I love the thought, one of my favourite things about games is sharing and what indie games allow you to do a lot of the time. Not every time, but because they're so simple, it's really easy to pass the controls and say, hey, go play this game. You know, this game, but you play this and you terrorise the town. You know what I mean? It's not like if I give someone, I think a really good game that I've played recently, Last of Us 2, I have to give them two books a low and, you know, like 27 hours to play at a mouse while I go around to make a cup of tea or something.
01:00:59
Speaker
I love that game, but you know what I mean, it's like, you know what it is? I think, if it was yourself, someone came into my house and basically finished Goose Game in one sitting while I was like, working on something! I was like, sitting next to him and he just finished Goose Game and I was like, alright, you going home yet?
01:01:15
Speaker
yeah i think it was um oh no definitely wasn't me no definitely wasn't me um i was over at your house one time while you were playing it and i think we only did the bit at the beginning where we just like tried to steer the keys and it was honestly like you would think we were playing risk or something the amount of like tactics we had like we had the maps i was like okay he's gonna come around here what if we
01:01:41
Speaker
Like eventually I think it's like devolving into, so you're sure that a goose isn't strong enough to cut the brakes on his car? It's like, no. It's like, god dammit. Bad to the drum. They fit in a box in mail ourselves.
01:01:59
Speaker
We could pretend to be the key repairman. Nothing was working. But that's the thing though. That is definitely the sign of a good game when you think you've got a story. Even with Human Fall Flat, don't get me wrong, Human Fall Flat is a very stressful game and in all the wrong ways.
01:02:17
Speaker
I would say. I love that game. Oh I love it but it's just it's one of those games that you play through and it's like obviously trying to work out the puzzles and it gets more complicated and honestly I think half of it is just like luck that you manage to grab onto the right bit sometimes.
01:02:35
Speaker
but again it's like it's a game that without it you know without having that kind of that opportunity and those experiences you know yeah like if it was a bad game we wouldn't be talking about it really like unless it was utterly like horrific that we had to like bring it up yeah it's a memorable game yeah it's some of the most fun i've ever had played a co-op game whether it's good for a bad fun um i don't know
01:03:03
Speaker
I think my wife always goes on a bit of a concept called type 2 fun, which is like, you know, when people like climb, I don't know, Kilimanjaro and they get down and they're like, that was the worst experience of my life. I can't wait to do it again next week. That's called type 2 fun. It's like something you don't enjoy, but you absolutely love it. And I think that to me is like what human fall flat is. It's like a horrifying experience. And at the end of it, I was like, I can really go play some human fall flat, right? I never want to see this game again until next week.
01:03:31
Speaker
do you know what actually reminds me of as well? Just kind of going back to my own like streaming experiences, Overcooked 2. So yeah just for those listening wondering you know how I mean Overcooked 2 as a great sequel by all means is a very fun multiplayer game and everything but if you have friends you better hope that you're like bonds of friendship are strong
01:03:59
Speaker
because, I mean, I've got a whole compilation video over on YouTube just, yeah, documenting in case, you know, I was gonna get murdered by one of them with like a flying plate. Exhibit A. Yeah, Exhibit A, the bun incident, you know, and I think we only did, I could be wrong, but I'm sure we only did like two sessions on it. Yeah, it's just,
01:04:22
Speaker
it's crazy. It's crazy like how much fun you can have on the game and even though like you do have falling outs and things like it's kind of light-hearted I mean it's the same with Phasmophobia it's like you know you play those games and you think oh great you know it's you know I've been scared silly I've been scared silly with this game and as for Phasmo no but for Phasmophobia you're like oh that was that was utterly terrifying and then you think okay same time next week and it's like
01:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. I know. I know. And it is. It's like that kind of... I can't remember what game it was. You were playing quite a lot. I think it was Crypt of the Necro, the answer. Was it Hollow Knight? No, it was Hollow Knight as well, but I think it was before. I think it was before. In all seriousness, I think it was before you started getting into Hollow Knight.
01:05:11
Speaker
must have been corrupt to the next would answer are one of these games in fact it might be Human Fall Flat because we played that quite a lot like you me and a couple of mutual friends and I mean that was fun because it was it was just like this experience it sounds weird to say it's like and this is an experience that we all kind of suffered through together it made us better people coming out of it
01:05:33
Speaker
Oh, definitely. Unless, you know, your takeaway from Overcooked is set the kitchen on fire. Don't worry, I'll be talking to Adam next week in Chatsanami about that. The Chatsanami is going kitchen safety!
01:05:47
Speaker
Now, what do you do with the fire extinguisher? Throw it out the window? No. One of the other games I actually forgot to bring up there from looking at my list was only in the blind forest. Did you ever play that? I've got that on my list as well, actually. Yeah, I think that was an Xbox exclusive for a long time. It's only recently come to Switch, so I haven't actually played it yet. But it comes into one of those games, like for me,
01:06:08
Speaker
journey and braid. I've seen a lot of reviews on it where people are just like loving about how artsy it is and how it ties everything together and how it's just this beautiful story. I haven't played it but I really want to.
01:06:19
Speaker
like I haven't completed it. So when I got my Xbox One like years and years ago, I got two, three games worth it. So the first one was a Witcher 3. Haha, I haven't played it. Well, I have played it, but I haven't completed it. And the second one was Oni and the Blind Forest. And I remember playing like I never completed it. I only played the beginning of it. But I remember playing Oni and the Blind Forest and just
01:06:40
Speaker
realising, this could sound weird but just realising how beautiful the game could look like in the next box. It really sounds weird to say but you're just playing this game and you think, how does this game look so good?
Art Style and Themes in Indie Games
01:06:54
Speaker
Back then, obviously it's not like, this is the thing, especially with a lot of indie games, it's not hyper-realistic graphics and it doesn't have to be to look beautiful.
01:07:06
Speaker
You know, it's amazing how it's just a couple of pixels or a couple of drawings and things. And don't get me wrong, like I'm not saying only indie games can be, you know, only indie games can be beautiful. Get out of here, AAA games. But no one else sees this in us. It's just... I think that comes back to talking about like one person's vision and style. And I think, like, take a shot because I mentioned Hollow Knight. If anyone's playing that game at home, please don't because it's Wednesday. But maybe during the day for us to know the podcast later. But Hollow Knight,
01:07:34
Speaker
is like super stylistic it's just got its own style and I think it's one of the most beautiful games ever made like part of the reason I actually went back to play it recently was because I got a new tv I was like I need to see what this looks like on a new tv and yeah it doesn't look as good as I don't know like Gears of War 5 that's a great looking game or like um The Witcher The later Masters The Witcher
01:07:54
Speaker
I mean, that's a, that's a beautiful looking game. They watch a TV show with Henry Cavill. Just, you know what I mean, they're a bit like, 10 out of 10. You know, they create a TV show. But like a lot of games, indie games, sexy bootiles that I want to mention, where it's just like, they've got like a super nice style and it looks beautiful and it doesn't need to be complicated. And it looks incredible in its simplicity. And I think that's, I think that's something to really say for indie games. Like again, not all of them, but I think you don't have to be very realistic to look incredible as a game. Yeah. No, I agree with that.
01:08:23
Speaker
It is, it's all, I mean I know we're kind of looking back to what we're saying at the beginning, but it is all very subjective. And I know that is like you could extend that to like games in general, but like especially for indie games, because I mean there's so many that you could mention. I mean two that I haven't played, although they're highly recommended from Adam, was that Return to Obra Dinn or Dinn?
01:08:45
Speaker
and what remains of Edith Finch. I mean, there's those as well. And kind of going back to what you were saying before, I cannot remember for the life of me what this game is called, but there was a game that, again, I think it might have been Alex Burrow who was playing it. And yeah, he's a bad influence when it comes to playing indie games. This guy's playing every indie game under the sun. Has he played the whole night yet? Actually, the whole night.
01:09:11
Speaker
Yeah, endorsed by Craig. It's like, play it. The reason I was saying that was like, I remember I was playing the game that I can't even remember what it was called, but it's basically you play as a cat and you move back home. So it's like, I think you go to university and then you have to move back home. And it's like all of these kind of very stylised, like, drawing kind of graphics. Yeah, the name's in it to cut on. Yeah.
01:09:39
Speaker
Yeah but it was just like you see watching it initially I thought oh it's going to be one of those kind of stylized yeah getting the message through seeing it's night in the woods well done Satsu well done from remembering that
01:09:56
Speaker
Now jokes aside, yeah it's cool. But yeah night in the woods. It's like initially when I watched it I didn't know what it was all about and that is like
01:10:12
Speaker
that is one of the main hooks for indie games because usually when you see like a AAA game or you know like a game that's made by a big publisher usually you kind of think oh it's you know oh this is a shooter game oh this is you know your typical like RPG or whatever or you know sports game you know you can tell usually but for a lot of indie games that I've seen it kind of like
01:10:36
Speaker
dangles like that kind of curiosity in front of you like it has a hook and it's like oh do you want to see what this game is about and you're kind of like okay okay you've piqued my interest let's see where we go and Night in the Woods like starts off as like all these animals just you know like being haha party animals and kind of things like that and then you see like the kind of deeper themes in it when it's talking about like
01:11:01
Speaker
mental health that's talking about inner demons and things like that. Again, I don't think that, as you were saying, a game from a huge gaming company would be able to tackle that the same, probably. I mean, don't get me wrong, obviously they have it. From an objective level, obviously they have the resources and everything like that. But as
01:11:22
Speaker
the kind of gaming landscape as just now, they've got a lot more freedom to kind of take on that very serious issue. And Night in the Woods isn't the only one, you know, there's just so many games that deal with kind of more personal issues.
01:11:39
Speaker
And I loved what you said about a game opening, like the game hooking you with its curiosity because I've recently played Hades on the Switch and that is an excellent example of that where it's got all these underlying plots of various characters, different tackling and parenting and sort of how people can deal with reaching goals when they can't achieve them stuff. There's actually quite a lot of really deep stuff in there. But the game itself kind of reveals itself to you in stages. It's kind of hard to explain.
01:12:03
Speaker
I don't want to spoil it for people, but there was a point about 9 hours in where I was like, I've got this game figured out and I'm probably going to put it down soon and then I'm playing it 50 hours late and I'm still getting thrown for a loop every so often and it's very clever how it opens up and that's something you just can't really do if you're playing games because you have to know the games just become famous. Halo could never turn into a totally different game halfway through. For example, I was playing Undertale recently, which I think is what, 10 years old or something now?
01:12:31
Speaker
I only got into playing it recently. And that was on the edge of my seat at the end of that. And I had no idea where that game was going. I know what's going to happen at the end of Persona 5. You know, I've brought brush jokes. I know the good guys are going to win, the game's done. But, you know, like Undertale, it has different twists throughout it. And because it can do that because it's just so simple. You know, you're totally right. It's like bringing you into a game and like revealing itself. It's something that indie games can do in a whole different level because there's no rules.
01:12:58
Speaker
You know, like you say, if you're playing a game, you kind of know what you're getting. Well, there's no rules for an indie game. If It Wants To Turn, Little Nightmares is probably another good example of that. But it's like, if it wanted to turn into a shooting game at the end, you probably would have been like, fine, let's do it. You know, because the game's just got so many little bits that it keeps kind of hitting at new features and stuff. It's brilliant.
01:13:17
Speaker
funny you should mention that about Little Nightmares because I remember and again it must have been a good couple of months ago like last October in 2020 and I remember at the very end or in like certain sections of it the majority of it is just you are like a small like this small person in this huge kind of world like that's just so oversized and you're crawling through all these ducks like air vents and just like trying to avoid everything but then at the very end they throw you into like a boss fight
01:13:46
Speaker
They do it in such a way that you have to adapt to it. I mean, don't get me wrong, they do that as well, like at the beginning. Always for some of them. Yeah, they adapt it and they reveal more and more that it's very clever. Yeah, it is really well
Game Tension and Recommendations
01:13:58
Speaker
done. It's like a slope. I wouldn't say it's a slow burner because you are in the edge of your seat constantly getting chased by people. But yeah, as you said, it's like as soon as they change and swap over to something else, you're like, oh yeah, I'm all up for this.
01:14:16
Speaker
It's like let's do this. All I'm saying is if only they did have like anything to defend yourself with in that game. It would be a kind of a different game if you suddenly pulled out a rifle I wouldn't it? That actually reminds me and this is like going back to kind of probably further back with um indie games. Like do you remember the game Slender the 7 page or the 8 pages? Yeah yeah yeah.
01:14:37
Speaker
Yeah, like that. I mean, that's a good example as well of just a very simple idea. And don't get me wrong, it wasn't like, I think at the time it was probably groundbreaking before like everyone else tried to kind of copy that idea and run it to the ground, but I mean,
01:14:53
Speaker
yeah that was a simple idea it's like oh you've got a clear objective try and do it and don't get caught by the monster kind of thing. I'd always remember just going back to that idea of not making a game scary was there was always an edit where this guy gets caught by the slender man but then he turned round and he edits himself like shooting that.
01:15:12
Speaker
Like just the overlay and it's like, yeah, that would, yeah, that would just ruin the game entirely. So, yeah. I think that's the note that we've probably reached the end because that's been a lot of fun and I think we've talked, I've, I've, I've mentioned every, every game.
01:15:29
Speaker
I said it was because it was not made by like one guy. I can't remember. I feel like it was. If it isn't send your complaints to satsanami at satsanami at chatsanami at gmail.com Yeah send it to that one.
01:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Yeah, I was actually going to ask before we finish up, is there any particular games you wanted to bring up or give a honourable shout out? I think I've brought them all up now. I don't think I mentioned Phoenix Point actually, which was a spiritual sequel to XCOM. So the guys that made the original XCOM on the Playstation 1, I think it was, like that era. You see, era then. And they got it bought over by 2K, who made the enemy unknown.
01:16:11
Speaker
Dexcom 2, which is incredible. But the original designer went off and made Phoenix Point. So that was kind of cool. He got a bit kind of similar to Pudstained. I always wanted to mention Guacamelee, which is like a cast of radio game where you play Luchado. It's incredible. I've steamed a bit of that once upon a time. It was really good fun. And I don't think I mentioned it, so Hollow Knight, pick up that if you get the chance. No, I was just like you mentioned that. No. OK, so Hollow Knight would be my other one to pick up. It's getting a sequel at some point soon. Yeah, those are the ones.
01:16:41
Speaker
If you haven't played Journey, please play that. It's one of my favourite games of all time and it should have more love. It's about four hours long, so honestly just take four hours out of your life, get some headphones, put the TV on full blast, close all the curtains and just play it for four hours and just have a good time. That's probably all my wrap-up thoughts for the big games I would recommend. So that was both... Oh, and Avicii and Vector, please play that. I want more DLC for it, and they'll make more DLC if more people buy it, right?
01:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's the way gaming works now. I mean, there's honestly like so many we could talk about. I mean, ones I've missed out as well, serial cleaner as well. That was a fun one, but it got very annoying very fast with certain bits.
01:17:28
Speaker
I need to go back to it, even play it in stream and just like force myself to actually finish it and think about the puzzles.
Games as Escape and Community
01:17:35
Speaker
Another one, I don't know if this counts as an indie game but RMX I think it's called? It's like a spiritual successor to F-Zero.
01:17:46
Speaker
yeah it's like a really fun like racing game i don't know if that counts as an indie game but i mean if it does then by all means like check it out but i suppose from i like list wrapping up again castle crashers or a battle block theater
01:18:02
Speaker
both great games, if you want a good beat'em up game with good humour, Castle Crashers, if you want the same but instead of platformer, go for Battlebok Theatre. As well, Overcooked, as much as we were joking about it, Overcooked is a really fun game.
01:18:19
Speaker
you have to play it, especially with friends. I think definitely it's a game with friends. Phasmophobia as well, like I've had a blast with a lot of that. I would only say if you're not, if you like horror, definitely go for it. If you don't like horror, avoid it by all means.
01:18:35
Speaker
yeah if you want the alternative to Pokémon, Temtem, definitely would recommend at least checking it out because I honestly am really digging the style and where that game's actually gonna go, really gonna be excited to see where that goes and then of course the last one is yeah I would recommend games like Kindward which I know sounds like a weird one to kind of end on but I don't know I feel as if like considering the way things are going these days and just
01:19:02
Speaker
yeah gaming has become more and more of a hobby you know it's a kind of it's a nice game to like kind of go back on and just you know like take time out just to you know either vent your problems or even just try and help other people you know it's just such a good game for that and as you said Craig it just shows how games as a whole have basically just evolved really. It's funny to think at the start of the service would you ask me what is an indie game and they were asking
01:19:30
Speaker
What's a game? It's a great one, but no, it kind of was a great recommendation to close. And I think, you know, games are such a great release for people and a great escape for a lot of people. And I think games like that are so important. And yeah, that's a great. I think it's a great one to finish on.
01:19:45
Speaker
Just before we wrap up, first of all, thank you so much, Greg, for once again coming on to Chat Tsunami. It's been a blast. This is one of my favourite topics ever to talk about in general. Yeah, I'm always up for chatting in the games. And I was just going to say as well, I think this is your very first episode in Chat Tsunami in 2021. Yeah, it must be. I think so. If that actually has been another one, I'm going to... yeah. Boy, will my face be red. I'm sure it was one of the first anyway. I'll say one of the first and I'll cover my back.
01:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, according to our Discord chat logs, I was on call with you on the 6th of January. Loads of the 6th of January. Sat Sanami said, you hadn't been on, but you had been. I hope someone gets fired for that one down the road. I was like, oh god, what were we talking about?
01:20:31
Speaker
Oh dear. Yeah, don't worry. I'll cut it out. I'll put it out. I'll censor myself. Craig, where can these lovely people listening to this podcast find your content? Well, if you want more of me, the primary place to hear my lovely voice is the Bearden Show podcast. Just search Bearden Show podcast into whatever podcast tool you use. So whether it's Spotify, whether that's Anchor, whether that's Podcast Addict, whatever, that will
01:21:05
Speaker
If you want to come get some more extra behind the scenes stuff and just highlights of the episode and what's coming up in the future. Or if you want to chat to me directly, I don't know why you would, but you can do. If you want to chat to me about indie games, I always have to chat. You can find me on Instagram at craigallymartin, C-R-A-I-G, Ali, spell A-L-I, Martin.
01:21:24
Speaker
or something new. If you want to find out more about my life in the crazy world of professional wrestling and keep them fit and fitness and food and all that good stuff, you can find me on Instagram under my wrestling world as at Martin McAllister, which is Martin then M-A-C-Allister spelled A-L-I-S-T-A-I-R. It's really hard to spell when you're under pressure. That's all my places, I believe. If you find me on an account, it isn't one of them. Please don't talk to me.
01:21:55
Speaker
Be back in my turmoil, don't add me. Yeah, it's like, it's all the fake Craig accounts out there. You have to be wary about it. Yeah. So basically, if you get a message from Craig asking you for your bank details, then yeah, don't answer it. I think that's a good throw from regardless. I'm thinking, like, you know this here in Terminator 2, where he calls and he's like, oh, your parents are dead. If you're not sure if it's me, message saying, what's your favourite indie game and I'm going to come back with Hollow Knight and it's not me.
01:22:41
Speaker
I'll catch you on Tatsunami's Discord if you're looking for me, or like I said, all social media places, so thank you. That's all from me, I think. Oh, thank you so much, once again. I know it sounds like a broken record, but genuinely, thank you for, you know, spreading the word of indie games. It's a long-needed topic on Tatsunami, definitely.
01:22:51
Speaker
What's your favourite hole? What's your favourite indie game? What's an indie game? Craig's dead.
01:23:01
Speaker
So, yeah, if you want to follow my stuff, which I mean that in the nicest way possible, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, your stuff, if you want to follow me. So, yeah, if you want to follow more of my content, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and of course, we've also got a Discord as well. But if you want to find me in any of those websites, you can find me under the name Satsanami42 and yeah.
01:23:28
Speaker
If you want to see my compilation videos, definitely check out YouTube. You want to see behind the scenes stuff or my cooking skills or attempt to cooking. Yeah, you can go for Instagram, Twitter for daily updates, TikTok. I don't know how to use TikTok, but yeah, there's videos up there. I'm sure. I think that's all from me as well.
01:23:49
Speaker
You can also join our Discord server, that is the Satsanami Society, where we just were a pretty nice and quite a small but really nice community of very supportive people. So if you want to join that, yeah, please feel free. So as always, thank you all so, so much for listening and yeah, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated. Bye guys.