Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Bi Men Unfiltered, a podcast for today's curious and bisexual man hosted by older, wiser bisexual men who were also once curious. From identity and relationships to dating, sex, community, and everything in between, nothing's off the table. Honest, authentic, and we're not afraid to get a little NSFW or more than a little. No shame, no stereotypes, just real conversations. On today's episode, we're talking about my bi journey. Me, Sam, I'm going to tell you about how I discovered that I'm bisexual and what all happened with that.
Speaker: It's going to be an interesting journey. It is, and I'm looking forward to hearing it. And I am Grayson. Hey, Grayson, how are you doing today? i am doing good, Sam. How are you doing?
Speaker: I am doing great. Yeah. It's ah not too hot where I am, thankfully. so I'm enjoying that. It's still sunny. I also left the house for the first time since Saturday afternoon yesterday to go to a movie. And it was a blast furnace, which is why I hadn't left the house. In those days, you know, it it had been about four days since I had left the house, even walked outside. oh yeah.
Speaker: I remember why I don't like it out here. Yeah. It was still 90 degrees at 11 PM. So. my God. I could not deal with that. I lived in the South for a little while and I just, I was not compatible with the heat.
Speaker: And so i I got out of there, thankfully. I am not super compatible with it, but we have too much found family that we don't want to leave behind. Yeah, well, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Speaker: Well, let's kick it off with a word of the week. Word of the week. We should definitely have a theme song for word of the week, right? um a Word of the week this week is side.
Speaker: What does side mean? so if you are familiar with ah what a top or a bottom is in terms of ah gay relationships, ah top being the penetrator, bottom being the penetrateee most often.
Speaker: Side is a term coined by Court, Dr. Joe Court, psychologist, therapist. ah And that is to describe men who...
Speaker: have sex with men, but do not partake in either or do not generally top or bottom. So this is activities that are other than topping or bottom bottoming. So oral masturbation, ah making out that kind of thing. Those are side activities. Yep.
Speaker: And on quite a few dating apps or, yeah, apps, gay dating apps, you will find this term listed as one of the things you can put down as a preference. So if you are not looking for penetrative sex, then maybe you're a side.
Speaker: And Joe Court also has a podcast that we'll link to in the show notes, but has also written a book about sides as well. And i know on his social media and Facebook, he even runs a group on Facebook that is side guys.
Speaker: So all guys that just enjoy those side activities. So again, like if you're bisexual, you could be a top, a bottom, a side. You can like any of those things.
Speaker: You don't have to be a bottom to be bisexual or even gay. so Right. Yeah. And this was a word that I was not familiar with when my divorce happened. And and when I heard it, I was like, oh, yeah, that it definitely I'm.
Speaker: What word am I trying to think of now? I'm i i'm identifying with this word side. Like i identify with that. so You felt seen. i felt seen. Right, exactly. Because if you're like, yes, I want to have a sexual encounter with a guy, but I don't want to top, I don't want to bottom, you have to negotiate that beforehand. And there wasn't an easy way to negotiate that beforehand.
Speaker: And one of the things actually is really that's really interesting about same-sex, ah not relationships, but finding a guy is that very early on in a conversation, there will be the what are you into talk, right? Where you find out what the other person would want to do should you meet up.
Speaker: And that's where you find out if they are cool with side activities or if they're looking for a top or a bottom or all kinds of things, if it's not in their profile. So...
Speaker: i That was a term that I wish had been around, but because I, like you, I would have, when I first heard it and found what it meant, oh, hey, that's what that is.
Speaker: Okay. there's There's an actual term for that now. But at the same time, I remember a friend of mine that I had known since high school, but you only communicated with online for the last few 20 years or so.
Speaker: um he He was gay. he was in a He was actually married. It turns out that for a few years, he literally lived one street over from us and didn't know we didn't know it Wow. Okay.
Speaker: For several years. um But after he and his husband split up, I saw him post on Facebook once. Okay. If you say you're a top and you're not going to top, don't say your verse.
Speaker: Just say you're a bottom. Don't lie to me.
Speaker: Right. Because there are guys who have preferences for at yeah every type of activity, right? And you just you just ah went into another word there that people may not be familiar with, and that's verse, yeah which means that you can do top or bottom, but you're amenable to either.
Speaker: But like your friend was saying, sometimes doesn't happen. Sometimes people will say that to get more eyes on their profile, as it were. Imagine that.
Speaker: Imagine that. It almost as if you're a couple and you have an ad posted and you hear from ah a certain type of ah guy that they say they're bi, but they're only interested in the woman in the relationship or interested in the man. But yeah, that kind of thing happens all the time.
Speaker: Yep, sure does. I have no idea what you're talking about. That thing that sort of thing never, ever happens in the world. Never. No. It's pure fiction. Lies. yeah Deception.
Speaker: And I do change. i do on my own profiles. I often will change ah what that says, depending on if I'm in the mood for one thing or the other. So for me, it's kind of a moving target.
Speaker: And that that's totally fair, too. Targets can move. That's why it's important to have the what are you into conversation, which, again, is very common for ah for gay men or men that ah want to have sex with men. But you don't have that kind of conversation with a woman generally because you already know what's going to happen, probably. they therere There are certain ways that that the parts fit.
Speaker: There's the menu. They're expected to fit. Yeah. There's the bases, right? Yeah. like Now, the even even in those cases, though, you can still have some of those conversations about, hey, are you into this? You you mentioned it on your fuck it list last episode. Yeah. Anal with a woman.
Speaker: Yeah. That's not something you want to just bust out in the moment. because Nope. And it's not something you it's definitely not something that you want to spring on someone as a surprise.
Speaker: True. I mean, there's there's the stereotype of of the asshole guy who's like, oh, sorry, it slipped. And maybe that has happened in the history of the world. Maybe that has been authentic, but often they not. Not not a not a majority of the time, we i would assume.
Speaker: Right, right, right. Well, this week we're going to talk about my bi journey. ah you know, let's let's talk some details. um Let's. I have my popcorn ready because I've been waiting to hear this.
Speaker: ah ah It's going like an MST3K situation where you're going to making fun of me or something like that. no. i've I've got my popcorn. I've got some coconut oil. I'm sorry. Did I say that part out loud? ah You did.
Speaker: oh my gosh.
Speaker: ah All right. So I said in the intro episode that I had discovered that there was something about men that I liked at a young age. And I have a distinct memory of maybe when I was like six or eight years old.
Speaker: You know, you'd go to a bookstore with your parents and the the porn mags would be like up on the top shelf, right away from. where kids ah could grab them.
Speaker: I was a tall child. so So that was partially to my advantage. But somebody had left a Playgirl magazine down on the lower shelf. And it was like one of those annual, like I don't know,
Speaker: like a yearbook thing or like an almanac thing. I don't know what it was, but it was one of those like half size magazines. And so I picked it up and started flipping through it and it had pictures of, of naked men.
Speaker: And i just thought it was the most hilarious thing. I like giggled hysterically at it because I had not seen, you know, ah adult male form at that time. And there was something about it. So that memory of flipping through that magazine,
Speaker: ah is kind of burned into my brain and you know how I giggled at it uncomfortably and then put it down. I forget who told me I wasn't supposed to be looking at that, but my independent bookstore employee or something.
Speaker: But, uh, so i put that down. You that, that sounds kind of like my college girlfriend's reaction to the first time she bought a play girl. Yeah. Giggling. And yeah. Cause she was like, I,
Speaker: Okay, yeah, they're kind of good looking, but the pictures are just silly. Yeah. Well, and it was everyone was you know like flaccid, too, so wasn't even that exciting right of you or anything. so And hey, this is the time before the internet.
Speaker: You couldn't just it's get on the internet and speak look at all the naked pictures. But if I'm guessing right too, this is also that a time before they were sealed in plastic bags on the newsstand. Correct. Yeah. So they were just out and open to pick up the magazine. and Exactly.
Speaker: And yeah, they would put them on the top shelf. Yeah. yeah you know people being what they are put them back wherever they want and so somebody had put this one back where kid could grab it and i did it so that was kind of my first inkling or first realization that like something there i think it helped that it was like very like masculine men as well so this this may have colored my entire you journey right there like what kinds of men i'm attracted to generally but uh but yeah so there was that and then fast forward a little and as teenagers sometimes do my older brother had learned from a friend of his
Speaker: that this is how you, if you like suck on a penis, then there's pleasure like involved in that. And so my brother had learned that from a friend of his and then told me about it and wanted me to do that. And also him to do that on me. So, and this is a pretty common thing, i think with, uh, with boys that grew up in the eighties. Like I, I have heard that this is a fairly common story where either a friend uh,
Speaker: a brother will you know start exploring right with their friend or their sibling and so that's what happened so my brother ah showed me how to do this how to suck cock and I didn't know what I was doing at the time I had not hit puberty I did not know anything about what was going on I could get hard, but that was it. The feelings down there were very foreign to me. Like, I felt like I had to pee. Like, it was just like not, it was so awkward. It just was not. Right.
Speaker: good at all and i didn't feel good about it and we only did this twice and never spoke about it again until i was telling my therapist about it later in life but uh so that's a thing that happened and i don't know that that really like and maybe that did stoke some curiosity for later once i had gone through puberty and realized, you know, what a below job is and what kind of pleasure could come from that. But, uh, that was my first initial contact was, uh, was with my brother.
Speaker: I think a lot of men have similar stories, either friends or siblings. Right. So I hit puberty and boy, did I like masturbation? Let me tell you,
Speaker: ah but but Can't relate. Can't relate at all. What? Masturbation jerking off. That's crazy. Who would like that? And of course, I did it a lot and would do it, you know, at night after my parents went to sleep, I would close the door and jack off.
Speaker: And ah I would think about jacking off all the time. I would get like paper towels and jack off, even though nothing was coming out. And eventually some things did start coming out, which was a very surprising thing. But also I realized that maybe I could get my own dick in my mouth and being young and flexible. I can't do this anymore. I could get the head of my own penis in my mouth ah by like flipping my legs over my head and I could just get the tip in and which of course what guy is going to try that all of us I think have right because if you can suck your own dick you're not leaving the house I am not saying that I discovered that I was not that flexible but I discovered that I was not that flexible yeah ah
Speaker: Yes, it is one of those things that you have to limber up. You have to do your stretching. It was not a first try. i got it kind of thing. It was is a sort of built over it's thing. ah But it was very good. And, you know, when you're a kid and you hear the term blow job, you think, oh, do I blow in it? Like, is that going be pleasurable?
Speaker: So I tried that. I was like, I don't get it. Like flowing doesn't do anything. It's the sucking that that's good. So did that. And of course, uh, all that, that entails even, you know, sampling your own, um, uh, went into that.
Speaker: And, you know, post not clarity isn't a thing. If the head of your dick is in your mouth while you're checking it, you can just, you know, go, go to it and see how it, see how it tastes. So,
Speaker: Did that. ah And around that same time, I noticed that I started having not really crushes, but like desires for male ah teachers was mainly what happened. And specifically, the awakening came from a sixth grade gym teacher who was shorter than me.
Speaker: But ah Harry had a beard and everything. And would, I'm not like a super athletic person. Uh, generally I'm not like a basketball player or a football player or anything like that, but, uh, I'm a fairly big guy.
Speaker: And so this gym teacher would kind of make fun of me, ah for that and would call me by my last name only. And, It's one of those things like ah almost like a drill sergeant kind of thing. Yeah.
Speaker: And suddenly that was like that was activating something in me. That was activating something in my brain and that he was hairy, had hairy legs. Of course, gym teachers wearing shorts most of the time.
Speaker: And ah yeah, he was the first sort of guy that I really like that activated something in me. I had him sign my yearbook. Who has their gym teacher sign their yearbook? Like that was kind of a weird thing. But anyway, I, I might've had my theater teacher sign mine. Wait, theater kid. Am I being a stereotype?
Speaker: ah theater i could understand though like other subjects but jim is like feels a little strange but anyway so then as you hit puberty and as you start you know catching porn to watch whether that's like the scrambled stuff on the on the cable box you know the trick where you go like one channel up and then like flick the the box to get the like weird wavy line version of porn where you can almost make out a boob here or there and a dick here there. And so that was before I turned 18. That was how got, uh, my, my rocks off, I guess is scrambled pornography on gay ball. I would even VHS tape. I record the scrambled porn and then watch it again. That was how ah desperate we were back in the 80s without the internet and all of these new ways to consume porn. So, yeah.
Speaker: And then I realized, too, sometimes when watching porn, I enjoyed looking at the dicks. too, not just the the women. So when I turned 18, I went to Tower Records back when they were around ah to purchase my first porno.
Speaker: And I don't know if you remember the video stores of the 80s. They would most often have some kind of like swinging door that was very squeaky in there. Like sconogi swinging door or the beaded curtain Yeah.
Speaker: A beaded curtain, this the squeaky thing, like something that would make noise when you go in that place, obviously as a deterrent to anyone who's not supposed to be in there.
Speaker: Right. and Right. ah But not like an alarm, not like, a loud alarm or anything just enough noise where a person who works there is going to look over and see who's going in there and so yeah went in the swinging door area bought my first porno but and i i went to do that with my brother is kind of like this rite of passage and then i went back a different week to buy my first gay porno and that was a different experience too same same area same uh squeaky door
Speaker: that I went into. And then, you know, like, wandered around thinking, should I bring this up to the front? Like, is that weird? Like, they're gonna think that i'm that I'm gay if I'm buying gay porno.
Speaker: And this place was far enough from where I actually lived that I decided to chance it and punt the thing. And as much as I enjoyed straight porno, I really enjoyed the the gay porn that I fought too. It was this movie called Comrades in Arms.
Speaker: And it was like our russian Russian actors, or at least plain Russian actors. And i'm very like Cold War coded. and the 80s? That's crazy talk.
Speaker: Not in the 80s. No, this was the 90s at this point. This was the 90s. So perestroika and all that, but you know... but yeah freedoms and things uh so that was yeah my first sort of look at gay porn and in college i would do this thing where it was uh early internet so you had internet relay chat which is i r c people don't know about that it's just like a big network chat room very similar to discord nowadays where there would be various channels
Speaker: And i would go in the sex channel and be like, ASL, check, you know, where are all the women at? There are no women in the mid 90s on the Internet, especially IRC. Like that was basically like a sausage party. Like still there were no women there.
Speaker: so But Jasmine promised me she was a woman. Well, Grayson, I have some news for you. Jasmine was probably a dude.
Speaker: I can't believe she lied to me. She lied. Yeah. Behind that screen. if we could If we could rewind time and go behind that screen, i would bet that that was actually a guy that you were talking to. Almost certainly. Yeah. Almost certainly.
Speaker: And so like in those sex channels on occasion, I would be like, I'll just, you know, come in here and be be a woman. Like if I'm looking for so some cyber sex or like some hot chat and I can't get it with ah with a woman, maybe I can pretend to be a woman and still like I'm reading the chat of all the things that we're doing. It's still going to be pretty hot, right?
Speaker: So that was how that started. And then i was like, you know what? What if I went into the gay channel and I wasn't a woman, but I was, I was a man and gasp.
Speaker: I know Right. And this is something and like you see with a lot of curious men where they go in to bi or gay coded space and say hello or say one thing and then immediately leave I was that person I was that person I did that several times like because you go in there and you think like oh like it's gonna affect me or people are gonna know that I've been in here when in actual fact nobody's gonna know that you've been there and nobody cares right yeah it's that Jurassic Park moment see nobody cares you shouldn't use my name
Speaker: Dodson, Dodson, we've got Dodson here. nobody cares. and Exactly. That exact gif, the Nedry gif, put it on and yes every time we see somebody leave a server or a subreddit or something. Yeah, that's that's the gif.
Speaker: um And yeah, I was that person. But then also I... I did have ah discussions, chats, cyber sex, which is what we called it back then um with men there.
Speaker: And it was pretty, pretty great. Pretty great. But at this point, I had not actually like done anything because I was too scared of being gay.
Speaker: too fearful of that. Like I knew that that wasn't me. That wasn't what I had identified with. So even just a being in a gay coded space felt like I got to get out of here. Like that was always like a fear response.
Speaker: that post not clarity would hit. And I'd be like, all right, I'm leaving this server and getting out of here. Like I am never coming back, never coming back. This was one time. Like I just wanted to scratch that itch.
Speaker: I'm done. Right. And then the next night dial up sounds and dial up sounds and everything. Yeah. And so I, I knew I liked it and I had a, a,
Speaker: gay porn dvd just one and wondered what it was all about and i also wondered about butt stuff because you know gay porn like most of it's like guys fucking guys like that's that's what it is that's the appeal penises in ass and i always wondered like what is that like to have something in there And so, you know, i explored with the fingers as you do in the shower.
Speaker: And one time I got very brave and ah used a hammer that my parents had. So we had like these kids, this kitchen tool set and it was light blue. it was like sky blue from the 70s. Like, and it was just a real shitty ah tool set.
Speaker: I used the hammer. Wait, so you're unlocking a memory. Yeah. Sky blue hammer. was Was the head of the hammer just kind of an oblong thing?
Speaker: Or did it actually look like your step typical hammer head? It looked like your typical hammer head. Okay. yeah I thought we might have had the same hammer. That part was black. Yeah. The handle was yeah no sky blue.
Speaker: We had one that it it was more like a tack hammer with a sky blue hammer or sky blue handle. And I was like, wait a second. Yeah. Oh, it might be similar, though.
Speaker: guess a very small hammer. It was not a very good handle, but it was a stick that I could potentially put in an orifice. And right the the head of the hammer, I don't know yeah even if I realize this, but you never want to put anything up your butt that is not flared because there is a very good ah opportunity for that thing to then get lodged in grass.
Speaker: And people who have worked at emergency rooms everywhere have stories about the things they've had to extricate out of someone's butt. Right.
Speaker: Any of them listening right now are like, I've got 20 of them. yeah And we want to hear them. So definitely reach out. ah on that. um So yeah, so I explored with the handle of the hammer and put it up there. i was like, what?
Speaker: What's the attraction here? This really isn't doing anything for me. And it was like, well, I guess I don't. I just am not into butt stuff. like i guess this is ah ah I also didn't really know what I was doing. I was just repeating what I saw. like this This goes here. This is how you're supposed to do this. It's supposed to feel pretty good now, right?
Speaker: No, it wasn't. So I cleaned off the hammer. By the way, my my my dad still has that hammer in the house. And every time I go back to visit,
Speaker: I look at that hammer and I'm like, I know where you've been.
Speaker: So. And, and I'm also, I'm also unlocking. Have you ever seen ah Dr. Horrible sing along blog? You know, I haven't. So I'll make it quick. Cause we're on your journey, but yeah Neil Patrick Harris plays a super villain named Dr. Horrible.
Speaker: And he's trying to, commit an atrocious crime so he can get into supervillain group. And Nathan Fillion plays a nominal superhero who's an asshole named Captain Hammer, who ends up stealing the girl that Dr. Horrible has a crush on.
Speaker: ah and And he figures out you know who Dr. Horrible is, because Dr. Horrible only interacts with her in his civilian identity at the laundromat. And so they're confronting one another at the laundromat. He's like, I get what you want.
Speaker: See, Penny's giving it up. She's giving it up hard because she's with Captain Hammer. And these are not the hammer.
Speaker: The hammer is my penis. Oh, yeah. ah Yes. Now, see, I wouldn't have said no to that hammer. Nathan Fillion. Yeah.
Speaker: but No. I mean, who would say no to that? Right. That's pretty good. Pretty good. So, yeah, after watching some gay porn, trying some butt stuff and chatting on IRC and then also AOL Instant Messenger was a thing. I had an AOL account at the time and You know, a chat with guys in my area, and that was where I would find people to meet up with and jack off with.
Speaker: And since I didn't have, i lived with my my parents and I didn't have a place of my own, so I had to go to them or do something in the car instead it be jacking off in the car or oral in the car and so that's really kind of where that all started in my early boundaries were i don't want to kiss nothing but related ah just want to jack off and ah either suck or get sucked and so that was where things stayed for a little while and once
Speaker: craigslist uh was a thing and i had moved into my own place i would find people on craigslist that wanted to do that same thing jack off or oral and that was it and that would be pretty fun and this wasn't this was more like a hookup type thing And like pseudo cruising, because i wouldn't know anything about these, these men. So, and some of those situations were good and some weren't like, I wasn't into anything rough.
Speaker: And one guy that I went to see, he was being rough and like pulling my hair. And I did not like that. And I left that situation, ah pretty quickly. And, That's another thing.
Speaker: i think when you get into this, you have to realize that men can be aggressive too. And you have to have those boundaries and what you like and don't like and what you're up for and not. And a guy going to pull my hair, forget that.
Speaker: No, not cool. I always say view that consent is mandatory, sexy, and can be revoked at any time. Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah. Consent is absolutely king on a lot of these things. So then I found out about a group in San Francisco where I lived called SF Jacks, and they're no longer around, but it was jack off club, ah in San Francisco.
Speaker: And i had read about these things on the internet, that there are these clubs where men go uh, groups and jerk off together and i thought man that sounds great and where do i sign up exactly this is exactly the type of thing i want to do like yes but i was a very timid person and also i again definitely was not gay so i didn't want to do anything that could be seen as as gay so uh
Speaker: i It took a lot of like courage to then decide to go to one of their club events. And i I worked in San Francisco at the time, and I worked late that night. I had like driven to the train station like by myself in order to like give myself transportation back home. Yeah. I had all this planned out that I was going to do.
Speaker: So I took the bus to this sex club where they had their meetings and they had their their events in the basement of this sex club, which by the way, I'd never been to a sex club before. So that was a new experience.
Speaker: And I walked in and they have you like, pay the entry fee and then like you had to sign something and then they had a locker area where you put your clothes and at generally at masturbation clubs or jack off clubs that are similar you wear footwear and uh otherwise are naked and so yeah i went into this room with 50, 60 other men naked and jerking each other off. And I thought this was the greatest thing
Speaker: ever Like I when I left there, I was beaming and I was on the train back to my car thinking, why don't why doesn't every guy want to do this? Like, this is perfect.
Speaker: Like, this is amazing. if Yeah, it was really like an eye opening moment. And I ended up going back there. And again, my boundaries were no kissing, no butt stuff. And at jack-off clubs, generally consent is very important and you don't have to do anything you don't want to. So that was a perfect situation for me.
Speaker: and And also a very controlled environment. Yeah. where Whereas you know you have a sense of of security that if something starts to to go downhill, that you're going to be able to nip it in the bud.
Speaker: Yeah. Somebody is going to have your back. Like the people who are running the club are very interested in consent. And we'll, we'll talk about Jack off clubs in a separate episode, but the rules are generally no lips below the hips and no holes in holes.
Speaker: And so that was a perfect situation for me. And, uh, again, didn't want to do anything gay, no kissing, no butt stuff. And so I went to a second or third event and a guy asked me if he could kiss me.
Speaker: And I had this, Like, you know, response like, no, I'm I don't I don't do that because that's gay. I think I said that's gay. I'm not I said I'm not gay.
Speaker: And the guy looked at me and he's like, but we do you realize like what we're doing right now? Like that we've got our hands on each other and what we're doing.
Speaker: And I'd really like to kiss you. yeah And i I thought about it and i was like, you know what? I'll give it a shot. This guy had a beard. He was pretty hot. Probably the right guy to ask me if I wanted a kiss. And so I i tried that.
Speaker: And I've never looked back since. Like, I will definitely... kiss a guy after that point. So, and it was very different from kissing with a woman because obviously facial hair, you generally don't have that from kissing a woman. And it was just a very different experience.
Speaker: A one that was of huge, huge turn on, huge turn on. So after that point, okay, now I've ah've gone from just jacking off an oral to now I'm kissing guys.
Speaker: Maybe I should try dating. of a man like, you know, maybe this thing. And by the way, oh, I should rewind a little bit. In college, I had a A girlfriend who was bi, and I told her about my same-sex desires, and she was like, well, you're bi too.
Speaker: And I was like, wait, wait a second. You're telling me that it's not black and white, you have to be straight or gay. There's actually something in the middle where there's bisexuality. I could say bi, which is true to me, and that I'm set. I don't have to do this thing where I'm wondering, am I straight or am I gay?
Speaker: I can be bi. I can be in that middle ground. And that was a really eye-opening moment for me. So yeah, my college girlfriend, who was bi, really helped.
Speaker: I think that that moment, that discussion was basically paved the way for everything else. The Craigslist stuff, the the kiss, the everything. Like, I now know this is what my preference is bisexual.
Speaker: Right. That was such a weight off my back too of, uh, of, of wondering. so So then, yeah, I yeah got on dating sites at the time. There were no apps. This is pre-smartphone era and went on Match.com and put down that I was a man looking for men just to see, like, what would happen?
Speaker: Like, if I go out on a date with a guy, like, what is that going to be like? I've already had sexual encounters with a guy. so so that feels like that is done. Maybe I should see if I could actually have a relationship.
Speaker: Am I heteroromantic or biromantic or what am I exactly in that space? And so I met a guy on, uh, I met a few, a few guys on match.com, but only clicked with one in particular and had a relationship with, uh, with a guy for like three years and it was really good it was really good lots of kissing obviously but i was aside at that point my boundaries stuck yes i was kissing yes i was uh jacking off oral sex that's fine but nothing else and i found out later he thought we were both bottoms and that's why we never we never fucked so
Speaker: It's like, done well, wasn't entirely true, I guess. But yeah, I just wasn't interested in butt stuff. Right. I think I i said in the last episode, or maybe it was this episode, I can't recall. um When watching gay porno, it would come to the rimming scene and I would fast forward like and just no interest.
Speaker: But I did like the penetrative stuff was still fun to watch because it's still ji's going in to a hole. It's still fine. Right. right Even if you don't want to do it yourself, which I didn't, ah it was still exciting to watch.
Speaker: Yeah. So yeah, i had a first same-sex relationship with with a gay man, an out gay man, and I was not out at this point. ah Some friends knew, but that was it.
Speaker: And so then I came out to some coworkers and they were very supportive. That was great. And then, of course, my boyfriend's family all knew that he was gay and They all really accepted me. And it was just a very, because I had never had that kind of relationship. I'd never seen that in action. Like it was just very different, right. To yeah suddenly be a part of this guy's family. And it was great.
Speaker: um Ended up breaking up that relationship and I moved away. and met ah my ex-wife and we started dating. I i had started dating, you know, a few women. And i when I was on there on match looking for a man, i was also, i would switch my profile occasionally to be looking for a woman and would go out on a date with a woman every now and again. and that didn't really bear any fruit.
Speaker: And ah so when I moved and I started dating again, i met my ex-wife. X, we started dating and I told her, i wanted to tell her because my ads on match would say I'm a straight man looking for a woman.
Speaker: Right. Just because, and I think this is still true today. If you're a bisexual man and you say it in a profile, straight women are less likely to click on you.
Speaker: And, and women are all already not probably not going to click on you on apps just in general. That's just not a thing that happens too often. I feel like. but So we started dating and two weeks into dating I was like, I have to tell her because this is going towards a physical place.
Speaker: I don't want to be dishonest about this. I want to be communicative and my past is my past and ah I also am attracted to men and so I wrote out an email that laid all of that out and that I'm monogamy minded but I have had sex with men and had a relationship with a man ah prior to you and I think I finished the email at like 10 o'clock at night and I hit send like you know the the index finger hovering over the hovering over the button and then you press it click start to click exactly ah there were a couple of points where i was like yeah no maybe not
Speaker: I'll just delete this. And then, yeah, the hammer came down. Wow. Pun hammer came down and I hit send. And then I went to bed thinking, okay, the shot has been fired.
Speaker: What is going to happen? Because I know that women have an idea of what a bisexual guy is. And in the mid 2000s, it was, oh, this guy is definitely gay or in the closet or whatever.
Speaker: And I knew that wasn't me. And said that in the email, you know, this is, I'm not in the closet. I know who I am. And the next day i got a reply from her and she was very understanding about it and said, let's continue seeing each other. And so that was like ah another huge rate.
Speaker: off of my back for that and so we dated got married had a daughter i'm ah condensing some of that together but uh while i'm married i was completely monogamous i i was not interested in any sort of polyamory or cheating or anything like for me monogamy was very very important even ah when i was in the relationship with a man so uh would still look at Porn, sure. And look at gay porn. Yes.
Speaker: But it didn't go anywhere outside of that. I didn't do any chatting or pick trading or anything like that. No cheating whatsoever. And I actually didn't know then how to represent myself as a bi man in basically a straight relationship.
Speaker: assumed to be straight relationship right i'm not even sure if there were like bi flag uh stickers or any gear that i could have had there probably were but again i was sort of assumed straight and i wanted to keep it that way Yada, yada, yada. Got divorced.
Speaker: And um started exploring again. And this time ah looking at the internet with a different eye towards exploration. And while I had tried, obviously, the hammer and had also had some small experience with dildos as well.
Speaker: um And that kind of butt toy. I found the idea of prostate massage very interesting, which is butt stuff, but it's not a dick-shaped dildo that you put in your ass. It's like a different thing that is mildly phallic-shaped that you put that rests on your prostate and it gives you a nice sensation. So I had been experimenting with that stuff and really liking it, by the way.
Speaker: I think men who have not tried prostate massage, like you are missing out. Like there is a lot of fun to be had there. Even if you don't want an actual dick up your ass, I think pre you will enjoy prostate massage because it is great.
Speaker: Even. And it's only great for me at the very end, like right almost at the point of ejaculation is where prostate massage really gets me personally. Yeah.
Speaker: um And you can find toys by Aneros or ah there are a lot of prostate massage ah toys you can find at any sex shop as well.
Speaker: So I started collecting prostate massagers and... Not even really thinking about, oh, I want a bottom, but, oh, I think I might be open to this now. like Because prostate massage had been such a fun exploration that, you know, maybe maybe that's something I could do. And, you know, maybe these rimming scenes that I've been fast forwarding all these years, maybe there's something there Yeah.
Speaker: was getting After my divorce was finalized, I started getting on the apps again, which is entirely new territory for me, and ah matching with men and doing coffee dates and chatting with people probably way too long, like like chatting with people for months before meeting, which I don't think is a great idea, but that's what I did.
Speaker: And ah then finding yeah male play partners. And ah it would be mostly jerking off and oral, those side activities.
Speaker: And one of my play partners really wanted to rim me. And i was like, I don't know. like I've never been... or been rimmed, but I've never done it before. Like this seems maybe interesting. And so we did that ah one evening together and he rimmed me and i don't think I've made sounds like that ah ever.
Speaker: He knew he knew what he was doing and really enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed it too. And it was like, well, damn, like if I can receive that, maybe I can also give that like, maybe this isn't so bad. So I tried that as well. And it was like, this is really, this is really pretty fun. Like I'm enjoying this. So I never thought that I would. i in fact, you know, for what, 30 years, I had had butt stuff off the list. Like absolutely no. Completely gone.
Speaker: Never in a million years would want any man, woman, anything. No toy is going to touch me or in I'm not going to go anywhere near the butt.
Speaker: But you know what? It's pretty fucking good. So I was suddenly open to that as well. And... ah Let's see. Where should we go with this? So, yeah, i currently have a few play partners. ah Friends with benefits is what I would designate them as. And again, communication with all of them, very open.
Speaker: I tell them about everything that I've been doing. They tell me what they've been doing if they want to. And I get an STI test every three months and also medication, preventative medication, which, again, very important for exploration ah to get on to talk with your doctor about.
Speaker: PrEP, which is po pre-exposure prophylaxis, ah and that is for HIV prevention. And then doxypep is post-exposure prophylaxis. And that ah gives a certain amount of prevention against chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis. So I have both of those medications at the ready in case, and I'm on PrEP.
Speaker: and just in case there's anything like, ah and I have had bottoming experiences now, as well as topping. And again, those have been very exploratory. Like first, I've only done that like once or twice at this point.
Speaker: Just very new to that. so i'm enjoying it as well and yeah i think the sti testing is very important but i also have an exploration spreadsheet that i put together where talk nerdy to me i know right a nice a nicely formatted google sheet that uh All the information on what I have done and with who. And part of that is in case I ever did contract an STI, I like having the ability to go through and notify anybody if I needed to, like to know exactly who I was with and when and what we did. And also just to see, that's just kind of like a curiosity piece, right?
Speaker: Because... When I was married, i there were years where we I just wouldn't have any sex. We'd go like a year or two years or three years without sex. so And I was still you know finding time in the shower in the morning to pleasure myself. So I was still getting some sexual gratification out of that. But it was basically a dead bedroom situation, which I think a lot of guys have run into.
Speaker: um So yeah, I have a spreadsheet that has what I did with who and I looked back on it at the end of 2025 realized I had more sex 2025 than any other year in family.
Speaker: in my prior years like any other sheer and i was like that's pretty freaking cool like come to think of it like all of these things uh that i've done or checked off the the bucket list right uh all the butt stuff that was on the list no longer on the list so um Yeah, and that's kind of up to date on where we are now. like i'm still I've got a nice amount of partners, friends with benefits that I like seeing a lot and ah still go to group activities. I still do go to ah the local Chakoff club, which is fantastic and I think a great way to just explore in general, but also just very affirming activities
Speaker: as well uh because another thing that i've discovered through this whole journey is you know men go for what they find attractive or like there's no pretense and if you go to a jack-off club or a gay space like a bathhouse somebody's interested in you they're gonna let you know and you can let them know too and it's not like it is with women where i think i'm more timid With women where I don't want to be ah too aggressive or like push myself on them or anything like that.
Speaker: And I find with men, it's different and just very affirming. Like somebody comes up to you and says, hey, you're hot. Want to play? It's like this is the first time that's ever happened to me in my life. this is a great thing right like and you know what they want and they know what you want in general yeah except for the what are you into talk that happens um if you're talking to somebody on an app for the first time uh so that's that's been an eye opener as well to be like at a party and have somebody walk up to you and be like hi i'd like to touch you and it's fantastic yep
Speaker: So, yeah, that's kind that's my that's my journey, I suppose. um Any thoughts, Grayson? Any questions that you have after listening to me yabber on for...
Speaker: Almost an hour? no I mean, it's, I think that anybody listening is going to find that, you know of course the details are going to be different from person to person, but I think ah anybody listening is going to find a whole lot of commonalities between your journey and Next time when we go over mine, there's going to be a lot of overlap.
Speaker: There's also going to be a lot that's completely different. But the the main, i don't want to say themes because it sounds like I'm trying to be pretentious and all literary and then you media literate and stuff. Yeah.
Speaker: no but a lot of the same, I'm going to have to say themes because I can't think of a better word, are going to run through your story, my story, and their own.
Speaker: Because especially, you know we've we've made no bones of of our ages. Growing up in that Gen X period, like you say, and I said in the first episode, we're we didn't know that there was that middle lane.
Speaker: Right. It was black very black and white, gay or straight. Yeah. And, you know, so and not only was there the fact that you knew that you weren't gay because you liked women, but it's a And it still is a very heteronormative culture that we're in.
Speaker: And so not only were you not, but you didn't want to be gay because that that brought a whole, especially 90s, that brought a whole different set of problems with it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And geographically too geographically, too, that could bring even more problems. Did I mention last episode, buckle of the Bible belt here? but Yeah. yeah So, you know, there's i think that that is an awesome journey of of self-discovery. Yeah.
Speaker: you You mentioned the college girlfriend. there's aip When we get to my story next week, there is a similar but opposite college girlfriend element.
Speaker: o How's that for a tease, folks? All right. Yeah.
Speaker: but And i now I just need to remember to include that in my story so that the tease actually pays off. There you go. but I'll remind you. No. Yes, please.
Speaker: Please, because I will sleep between now and then. And so I will forget. but But yeah, that is a that is an awesome story. i love that story for you.
Speaker: And love... ah love I could sense when you were telling about, you know, sitting there hovering over the mouse button to click send and you weren't even already at the point that this is going to blow up. This could potentially blow up my life.
Speaker: Right. because Exactly. This was not a, that at all. Really? Yeah. this already two We'd only been dating for two weeks. So, yeah. Yeah. But even then it was still a a big step to take and a, a big show of confidence and trust on your part to do that.
Speaker: So I love that. I think when you see potential romantically or in a relationship with anybody and you want to share your whole self, right.
Speaker: And yeah that's a hard thing to do. Like, and I sympathize greatly with men who have been married and 20 years and have not said a thing to their partner and what is that going to be like because that is potentially a blow up your world discussion at that point right well and i wanted to avoid that as much as plausible yeah well and that's that's teasing the next episode again because spoiler alert folks that will be part of the next story you hear
Speaker: That kind of worry, that kind of setup. So i love that story. ah One thing I forgot to mention, and you you reminded me of it, is, you know, especially in the 80s and 90s, and we're I'm talking about HIV and AIDS, fear of that.
Speaker: That also was why i didn't want to do anything with the butt. I didn't want to do what was considered gay sex because that HIV and AIDS was a potential threat. We did not have medication at that time to deal with those things. And really the only reason that I'm more open to that now is because of PrEP and Doxipap and those things.
Speaker: And so that's not a fear for me anymore. And the idea that somebody can be pause or positive for HIV, but be undetectable because they're on their meds and not ah have a an infectious viral load, then that you know makes that an even better situation potentially. And not to say that this absolves you of any risk of getting an STI because it doesn't.
Speaker: ah STIs, you know, even with the prevention, the the prep stuff is very, very effective. I think it's like 99.9% effective.
Speaker: ah for HIV prevention, which is great. But doxypef, which is for syphilis, chlamydia, and gonorrhea, that's less than 100% effective. So that always sort of remains in my mind that it's a possibility I could could get an STI.
Speaker: That's why I'm testing every three months, and I believe I have to do that anyway for my PrEP prescription. So... ah But there are things like oral chlamydia, oral gonorrhea, oral syphilis. Like you can get things from any activity really. And so to stay on top of that testing, to share it with anyone that I am having encounters with very important to me. And, um, you know, some of them anyway, not everybody shares their testing with me um,
Speaker: That you know gives me ah some confidence there. But again, you can't 100% solve for the people that you might be playing with. You can only solve for your own health. yeah And you need to look out for that either by using condoms or by talking with your doctor about PrEP and DoxyPep. I am on Truvada ah for that, so for PrEP. And I've had no problems with it, but I would definitely encourage PrEP.
Speaker: before any plane happens for curious men, uh, to talk with your doctor if you can. And just funny coincidence talking about 80s and there there were a lot of scare tactics even then, you a lot of a lot of fear around anything related to sex because of the AIDS crisis.
Speaker: Just this morning on Facebook, I saw a reel that someone posted an excerpt from sex abstinence video. Wow. sex ed abstinence video Where the instructor, yeah she's doing the the whole, you know, ah every time you get in bed with someone, think of it like you're getting in bed with a loaded gun.
Speaker: What? And then she also did where I think you probably thought I was going, you're if you're sleeping with someone, you're sleeping with everyone they've ever slept with. Yeah. that One funny thing is they cut to one of the girls who's there in the crowd.
Speaker: And depending on how you freeze frame her expression, it looks like she's saying, that sounds kind of fun. about because Because the instructor's like, imagine everyone that they have ever gone to bed with climbing in bed with you. And that's when they cut to this girl.
Speaker: And she she kind of gets this like, okay. But... But then there's there's this teenage boy in the class who says, but what if I want to have sex before I get married?
Speaker: And her response is, well, then I guess you better be prepared to die and take your partner with you. Right. Yeah. That was what it was. That was the messaging. Yeah.
Speaker: That a lot of people had to deal with and still deal with, by the way, like abstinence yeah education is still a thing. And Yeah. It's unfortunate. And also, i think with men, if you grew up during that time, you remember those things like the HIV and AIDS epidemic and you're scared shitless about that stuff. Like, and your health should be important, but now at least there are preventative measures and you should find caring partners that care about that kind of stuff too. Like, and not just hook up with any old person in a rest stop bathroom.
Speaker: which happens too. There are some people who really get off on that and that's fine too. If they, as long as they're being safe, cool. But that's, that's not me. so Before we close out, I did want to do a little mini topic here yes on one of my favorite activities. I think it's one of your favorite activities as well, Grayson.
Speaker: And that is masturbation. Yeah. My good friend, masturbation and jerking off. Yeah. Can't stand it.
Speaker: I don't believe you, Grayson. No. if If you were standing closer to me, Sam, I would tell you to stand away because I don't want the lightning to hit you too. but Exactly, exactly.
Speaker: um So, yeah, what is your favorite kind of me time situation? Let's say you're going to set aside some time for a little self-care of the jerking off variety.
Speaker: What's your sort of favorite scenario? um It kind of depends on my mood. Most common is I'll just you find some time and area to myself, usually fire up porn, and just sit back and enjoy.
Speaker: But what when i when I have the time and the situation is right. I'll, I'll break out some toys. um you know, I'll, I'll break out a prostate massager or an anal vibrator.
Speaker: Um, it's not, it's not an every time toys aren't an every time thing. Yeah. Because, well, there is some like preparation that you need to do on occasion with that stuff. And cleanup can kind of be, uh, a little bit complicated.
Speaker: Yeah, and there's there's also the fact that yo sir sometimes, let's be real, it's even though it's enjoyable, it's more trouble than it's worth.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, I can understand that totally. you know, it's like, okay, do I really want to get out the loop? Do I really want to you know make... These days, it's not, does the toy have fresh batteries? It's, is the toy charged? If it's a power gun.
Speaker: um i' I'm not saying that I've gone to grab a toy, been all excited to use the toy, and it's dead. Have you ever tried to get that, ah well, not battery hatch, but hey put all the plugs and things together when your hands are all lubed up? It's not really that easy to do. Well, see, at at that point, I'm just like, okay, well, i guess I guess the toy's not in the cards for this one. And just you set it aside. And that's when, if I'm still intent on a toy, that's when the prostate massager comes in because it's not powered.
Speaker: Yes. There are powered ones, but the one you have... There are powered ones. Mine is not powered. so Okay. It's not powered. so I prefer those, actually. Yeah. think those are fun. hip and But, you know, just... and Sometimes it's seriously just like, okay, I'm bored, so I think I'm going to get off.
Speaker: When the mood strikes kind of thing. like like Yeah. Yeah. no and Exactly. How about you? i enjoy taking my time i'm a bit of an edger uh when it comes to that stuff in an ideal situation of course yeah you have those when the mood strikes you just have to take care of it sort of thing ah that happens too or you know somebody sent you a sext or something and now you have have to take care of the thing
Speaker: And yeah but if I'm just on my own accord and this didn't happen often when I was ah when I was married, just because I didn't have alone time like i like I do now being a solo poly guy. But so now i tend to, you know, put the lights down low, get out some boob or i have been introduced to the world of Bader Balm.
Speaker: which is a fun, ah nice product that that moisturizes as you're using it, which is another good ah health aspect, I suppose. But it works really, really well and ah doesn't dry up very easily and you don't want to use that with a condom or for sex but if you're just using it to jack off it's really nice uh and you can order that on the internet um and then i'll you know put on some porn on occasion or if i'm sexting with somebody a chat buddy then sometimes that's all i'll need i won't need a
Speaker: a porn video or anything like that uh and i have dipped my toe into the occasional cam room which are are fun uh but if i'm just by myself and i you know want to have a nice night yeah i'm kicked back on the bed just uh edging for a good while sometimes with a prostate massager in.
Speaker: If I'm edging with a prostate massager, I've found this happens for me. I will have these 40 second or minute long orgasms where I will just like ooze ejaculate and it won't be like, uh, spurts or anything like that. I will just ooze out of me. And when you have an orgasm that lasts for a full minute, it's kind of mind blowing.
Speaker: To have that, like it's a very, and it's a very, very different situation than having PIV sex or even, yeah like a hand job or a blow job from a partner. Right. So those are really fun.
Speaker: And I really enjoyed that aspect. Yeah, i I never sit down saying, I am going to edge, but that's effectively what I often end up doing. Because like, okay, not ready yet, so let's back off.
Speaker: But it's never a eight it's never a conscious plan or goal in and of itself. Right. It's just how I go about it.
Speaker: Yeah, and I'm not like, there's a whole culture on the internet of gooning. I'm not that person. No. No. yeah i'm I'm old school. with i wish i So, ah a little inside baseball listeners, on one of the Discord servers that we are both on, we were there was actually a conversation that some of us were having about that term this morning.
Speaker: I don't know if you happened to catch it or not. Yeah. And I was like, and so many of us were like, I hate that term. I hate it so much. I hate it with a passion. And for for the guys who are into it, who are listening, that is great for you.
Speaker: i am so glad. Do what makes you happy. But something about the term and the subculture just gives. i'm I'm going to go back with a Buffy reference here. It gives me the Wiggins.
Speaker: I don't understand that reference, but agree. It's just i agree Buffy speak. It gives me the Wiggins, too. that wig The Wiggins was the ick before the ick existed. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I'm right there with you. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of internet subcultures that you will run into if you're a bi man and you're around... gay dating apps or hookup apps, you will see various subcultures where there has, whether it's gooning or pup play is also another big, really big one.
Speaker: um So I don't, i'm ah I'm old school on all of those fronts. Like, it just I don't need to wear a mask or anything. like I'm more attracted to the male form than have to hide any of it.
Speaker: so yeah yeah it's like yeah i in i I don't remember if it was this episode or our first one. I mentioned the burlesque show that we went to. and you the Same troupe.
Speaker: uh, know, goes, they they have a show every few months and we go to it every time the venue that it's at old historical venue here in town and downstairs every Friday night, um,
Speaker: Even though it's not a sex venue, they have like a latex borderline BDSM group that has basically a rave down there every Friday night.
Speaker: moon and Wow, okay. It's like this we weird, not totally incompatible... cross-section of people that as we are leaving the burlesque show, their event has started.
Speaker: And so you have patrons of both coming in and out. So you do have some people going to the burlesque show, cosplaying the theme of the burlesque show.
Speaker: And then you have you know people in latex and or bondage type gear. But ah I guess we'll call it street legal. you know, latex and bondage gear, since it, since it is not a sex event, but is it it is a sexy event.
Speaker: Right. Um, you know, you just, it's kind of a fun little intersection. Every so often we're like, maybe we should check that out on our way out sometime. And then we're like, no, that's so not our speed. Yeah.
Speaker: Hey, me you never know. Maybe that would be fun. Who knows? But it's just, it's not our speed. So you said that you've become a fan of, of Bader Balm.
Speaker: For the most part, I don't use any lube for years just because happened to have it handy. i i went with baby oil, but I have in the last few years, I've switched to coconut oil ah because cheap,
Speaker: Easily available. Yeah. Also moisturizes. Yeah. And being a big fan of Alton Brown from Good Eats, ah it's a multitasker because you can also use it for its intended purpose in the kitchen. There you go.
Speaker: and And so it's like, hey, you know, why did I not know about this sooner? It's multipurpose. Yeah.
Speaker: and And so, you know, and I, we, we mentioned, we've mentioned several times this episode last time that my wife is just kind of cool and awesome. When I first was switching to it as like, Hey, you know, I, I think I'm, I'm going to switch up and I'm going to use the, get some coconut oil for, for that.
Speaker: Okay. And so but I think she's actually used all of it for cooking because I'm about out of my stash that I keep in a squeeze bottle for her no for masturbation purposes. I was like, okay, I need to put some more in. So I went into the kitchen and I'm going through the cupboard and I was like, where' where's the coconut? of It's in there.
Speaker: no it's not. so I'm going to have to go get some here soon. There you go But, you know, five bucks for a jar. But also, you don't want to use that with a condom or anything like that because it is oil based. So, yeah, important to know that kind of thing so that you don't accidentally have a ripped condom or a toy that ah degrades or something. Yes, exactly. And when when we get to our inevitable toy episode, I will have to go see if I can find any of her old notes from when she sold for Pure Romance.
Speaker: mean perfect because that that's that's where i learned the things like you know don't use oil-based oil-based bad right with toys silicon based silicon based lubes with silicone toys not something bad to do silicon lube with condoms same thing yeah Yeah, well, i I once had a silicone sleeve that she had gotten me and a silicone ring that she had gotten me and normally kept them wrapped in handkerchiefs.
Speaker: They shifted somehow and they melded together. oh no. So I ended up having to throw them out. Ah, ah, but you know, Hey, you know, we, we got them cheap.
Speaker: Always good. Always good. Oh yeah. It's also worth paying for quality when it comes to sex toys. Don't just, yeah. Well, when I say we, we got them cheap, it's because she got them for cost. Cause it's when she was selling. Right, right, right.
Speaker: That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. All right, shall we tease the next episode? Yes, let's. Or first, don't we have a resource? Oh, we do have a resource, yes.
Speaker: ah um We talked about the word side at the top of the show, and we will link in the show notes to the Side Guys book by Court, PhD, certified sex therapist.
Speaker: And ah you can find out all about side guys and what that means in the in the gay community. And there are also bi guys who are sides as well, including me, but and side or verse, depending on the situation.
Speaker: So at this point, I am going to shill our email and social media. We want to hear from all of you out there. We want to hear any questions that you have, comments, feedback. We want to hear your stories. um If it's good for us to read on the air, go ahead and put OK for air.
Speaker: But you can email us at podcast at bymenunfiltered.com. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, threads, Twitter slash X at By Men Unfiltered and on Blue Sky at ByMenUnfiltered.com.
Speaker: And all right given our next topic, I'll go ahead and tease. Go for it because Because this episode, you heard Sam's story. Next episode, you will hear my journey, which there'll be a lot of similarities and a lot of differences.
Speaker: And I'm kind of looking forward to telling it because I've told bits and pieces of it to people out of order and everything over the years, especially over the past year and a half since I came out.
Speaker: But this will be probably the first time that I've actually sat down and just kind of mapped out that whole road all in one sitting. Yeah. I'm looking forward to hearing it all mapped out, Grayson.
Speaker: Yes, I am looking forward to it too. Especially the similarities, but also very much the differences. Yep, very much. I think it's a unique thing that all of us...
Speaker: ah have these different stories and experiences. And yes, there's some commonality, but always great to hear that you're not the only person that has had this journey or been through these questions and finding these desires. And that's, you know, part of why this podcast exists. And I'm really looking forward to Yep.
Speaker: I'm looking forward to telling it. All right. Until then, goodbye, everybody. So long.
