Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: Today you join us for a very exciting episode as we've got a very knowledgeable yet also entertaining special guest with us.
Speaker: So today we are lucky enough to be here with William Hansen, who's one of the world's leading etiquette experts.
Speaker: And so the first question would be one that might be a bit obvious maybe, but why is etiquette still relevant today?
Speaker: We live in a very different world.
Speaker: Why do we still need it?
Speaker: Etiquette is...
Speaker: how we interact with other people.
Speaker: And however relaxed we get as a society, we are still interacting with other people.
Speaker: I would argue now etiquette is needed more so than ever because of the multitude of different ways we have available at our disposal, thank heavens, to interact with other people.
Speaker: We are talking, in effect, on a video conference at the moment.
Speaker: If even 10 years ago, this probably wouldn't have been
Speaker: quite as easily possible as it is, yet alone in the times of Downton Abbey or Jane Austen in sort of supposedly Etiquette's heyday.
Speaker: I think back in those days, you could take an awful lot of time to consider your actions.
Speaker: If we were corresponding, it would be by post and it would take days, if not weeks to reach you.
Speaker: And I could sort of
Speaker: just state on what I was about to say to you in response to when I got your letter back.
Speaker: And so things were slower.
Speaker: And I think people just were by default, a lot more civilized because they had the luxury of time.
Speaker: Whereas I think now we don't have the luxury of time.
Speaker: We just sort of have to
Speaker: wing it, basically, when we interact with most people.
Speaker: And we interact with with so many different people from all around the world because of the technology that's available in our lives.
Speaker: You said a great thing there, which is sort of that we need etiquette now more than ever.
Speaker: Could you sort of expand on that maybe?
Speaker: Could you say if there's etiquette has changed or if it's just sort of expanded?
Speaker: So are there still some things that are the same, but there's sort of new rules being put in place for other things or...?
Speaker: Yeah, the core principles of manners are always going to be the same, regardless of what era we're in, of respecting people, pushing people at ease, treating people with respect and giving ourselves self-respect as well.
Speaker: how we do that changes over time and etiquette has it has to be a shape shifter it has got to change in order to reflect life as it is today it would be no use if if my colleagues and i who teach etiquette were sort of telling people well this is how you should behave in the court of queen victoria because that we are we're not in the court of queen victoria and that is of absolutely no use to anyone whatsoever um and so we you know we've got sort of
Speaker: get with the program to use a, I say to use a modern phrase, it's probably not that modern, but it certainly wasn't used in the court of Victoria.
Speaker: I was going to say, you sort of mentioned how we've almost got these cultures across the world which we interact with.
Speaker: How do we, let's say, if you are approaching a situation where you have to, let's say, go to Japan, for example,
Speaker: Is it hard?
Speaker: Have we perhaps lost or gained more awareness of these different etiquette systems or?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm minded of a, so I run a company called the English Manor.
Speaker: It was started in 2001, not by me.
Speaker: But a story that the founder told me, which involves the Japanese, is when she started the company, she obviously had no clients.
Speaker: Often, that's what happens when you start a company, you start from scratch.
Speaker: And so she sort of had a bit of an in at quite a well known bank.
Speaker: in London, and sort of her contact got her in to have a meeting and she was pitching etiquette training and cross cultural awareness training.
Speaker: And, you know, these these sort of bankers listened to her very nicely and sort of went, not really sure, but you know, we'll keep your details on file that sort of response.
Speaker: And and off she went.
Speaker: And then a couple of months later, they had gone over to Osaka in Japan, which you know, this was in 2001.
Speaker: So it's a while ago.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Osaka is pretty, Japan generally, I always say the Japanese are the only nation that make the British look laid back.
Speaker: And Osaka in particular is more traditional, particularly in 2001.
Speaker: And the bankers from London went over to negotiate this big contract and on day one extended their hand
Speaker: to the sort of number two from the Japanese delegation ahead of the number one and where rank in Japan is so important.
Speaker: I mean, it's pretty important in most countries, but in Asian culture is very, very important.
Speaker: The Japanese were terribly offended nor walked out and they lost the million dollar or multimillion dollar contract.
Speaker: They then phoned up the founder and went off of the company and now run and say, I think we'll have that training now.
Speaker: And you just think, gosh, training, especially in 2001, it would not have been the cost that it is today versus sort of going over, winging it, thinking you know everything and messing up a big contract.
Speaker: I mean, it's extraordinary that it's this sort of almost innocent arrogance that a lot of people have that they think they know everything.
Speaker: You've mentioned the word manners there as well.
Speaker: Could you give us sort of a bit of an explanation of what the difference between manners and etiquette is?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So manners are the guiding principles of interaction in every culture, whether it's Japan, Britain, Australia, Egypt, the United States of America, every country is geared up to being well-mannered to one another.
Speaker: How each culture does that is
Speaker: is by using a set of parameters or guidelines, which is often called the etiquette.
Speaker: 90% of the time, the etiquette is correct, but sometimes in order to be more well-managed, to achieve that sort of ultimate goal, you have to break the rule.
Speaker: And as I said earlier, the etiquette changes.
Speaker: And the etiquette changes from country to country.
Speaker: So what is correct in one country may be completely incorrect in another country.
Speaker: This podcast is not sponsored by Visit Japan, but let's talk about our Japanese friends again.
Speaker: In traditional Japanese etiquette, as you may know, it is incredibly rude to blow your nose in front of people, whether you are related to them, best friends,
Speaker: or complete strangers.
Speaker: To expel bodily fluid in front of them in any form from any part of your body is considered incredibly bad form.
Speaker: And thus, it is more polite in Japan to, if we were chatting,
Speaker: sniff to let them know, look, I'm being so polite by holding in this sort of bodily mucus in my nose.
Speaker: Whereas in Britain and pretty much every other country, we'd think, gosh, that's jolly irritating.
Speaker: Please just go and turn away, blow your nose, come back and we'll carry on.
Speaker: But in Japan, the etiquette is completely the opposite.
Speaker: So obviously sniffing is not correct in Britain, but it's sort of correct in traditional Japanese etiquette.
Speaker: So etiquette, I'd say, as I say, 90% of the time, it's correct.
Speaker: But really what you want to always be is well-mannered.
Speaker: thinking about manners and etiquette, me and Dayan are both quite interested in politics.
Speaker: And I think one of the main things you see, whether it's royal families or politicians, is their manners.
Speaker: And thinking of this question, we're thinking perhaps we could ask you the world leader with the worst etiquette, worst manners, but President Trump makes that sort of quite obvious.
Speaker: So what is the world leader with the best etiquette or the best manners in your opinion?
Speaker: Well, I mean, especially we're speaking on St.
Speaker: George's Day, so it would feel very unpatriotic if I said anything other than His Majesty the King.
Speaker: And I do think that's where Britain and countries that have a monarchy or a monarchy, a constitutional one like ours are slightly, we've got the upper hand because thank heavens, if you look at countries that are republics or their monarchy is not constitutional,
Speaker: you know, it's nice, I think, to have your politics can be doing whatever it's doing, but at least those representing you on a state level are not getting involved in the sort of the mucky business of politics, and are just sort of serenely waltzing through life.
Speaker: I think that's a very nice, that's a nice thing to have.
Speaker: And I think too many people
Speaker: take that for granted, I think.
Speaker: But maybe the king is sort of a boring answer because you probably knew I was going to say that before I said it.
Speaker: But I think actually if you look at some of the other world, if we want to sort of cast our net wider, although not that much wider, I actually think President Macron in France does a pretty good job, particularly if you sort of see him interact with Donald Trump in Trump's first or second term.
Speaker: And Trump, we know, either deliberately or not, goes out of his way to make people feel uncomfortable, whether it's with handshakes that are a bit weird or being over tactile or saying things.
Speaker: And actually, Macron does quite a good job of sort of giving no indication that he is...
Speaker: affected or is going to rise or take the bait and sort of look serene.
Speaker: And I also think that's a great art that people are losing across the board is that almost people are conditioned that everything has to be reacted to.
Speaker: And actually, sometimes you don't have to have reaction to things.
Speaker: Yeah, that is really interesting because, of course, the royal family is associated almost with manners, with etiquette, with sort of those stringent rules, one might say, on how you address each individual in the royal family to if you're supposed to greet them first or not greet them first.
Speaker: But it's also great to have that sort of more...
Speaker: modern, one might say, leader.
Speaker: And talking about modernity, you know, we're having this podcast over Skype.
Speaker: How has technology, especially modern technology, impacted etiquette and here, so social media and other things?
Speaker: Very much so.
Speaker: I mean, I think it's changed how we interact with people.
Speaker: I mean, I think in the world of business,
Speaker: Post-COVID, I would say most sort of meetings or initial meetings post-COVID are done on Zoom, maybe the telephone, whereas pre-COVID,
Speaker: they were probably done, the first meeting was done in person.
Speaker: And then if it was going to go anywhere after that, it would then move to an online or a digital platform.
Speaker: Whereas now I think it's inverted.
Speaker: I think actually we sort of are more reticent or maybe are a bit more careful with our time.
Speaker: And actually you can speak to a few more people on Zoom.
Speaker: if you sort of stack them up, I mean, I don't love doing that, you get Zoom gloom, but you can stack them up and people do.
Speaker: And then if the ones that you think are beneficial and you do want to invest some literal face time in the old fashioned sense of the word, you then meet up in person.
Speaker: So I think the technology and the ability to communicate with people has changed
Speaker: the methodology of how we communicate with people and often our first impression of someone if we haven't met them in real life is what we see on their screen it is it is the glimpse into their uh home it is how well lit they are it's it's whether they're moving around when they connect or um whether you're seeing the underside of their chin um that that forms the first impression rather than the quality of the handshake do they make eye contact you know how close do they stand to you
Speaker: Is there any particular etiquette for social media?
Speaker: So we operate a lot on the new social media, so Instagram, even TikTok.
Speaker: Are there rules that people should follow there, apart from the basic?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a different social media platform almost every year.
Speaker: Instagram's probably still, I mean, look, you are the future.
Speaker: So you tell me if Instagram is a bit passe now, but I think Instagram probably just about has still, yeah, still is still at the top of the tree with TikTok maybe a close second.
Speaker: Although I'm always convinced TikTok is going to be banned any minute now.
Speaker: So don't worry too much about TikTok.
Speaker: quite so much.
Speaker: But of course, Instagram does so many different things as well.
Speaker: It does, you know, post messaging, reels, status updates, calls, blogging, you know, it's almost a one stop shop.
Speaker: But I think the danger is that with any social media, it's that sort of people think it's there to
Speaker: replace our social lives and actually it should be better complement our social lives and it's so much more important how you come across in real life than how good your photo looks of you on a ski slope or having drinks with friends or at a barbecue or whatever and um you know i've i've got a couple of people in my orbit who are professional influencers or content creators and
Speaker: They're lovely people in real life, but you meet up and they are just constantly on the phone because they are documenting everything.
Speaker: Because that is the nature of the beast.
Speaker: And okay, that is their job to a certain extent.
Speaker: But you know, when we go out for drinks, I'm not working.
Speaker: I actually want to talk to them.
Speaker: And I think there is this danger that sort of people see and sort of forget to sort of separate the two.
Speaker: And I think I'm sure our listeners do know, but this is obviously in the context of William having, I mean, you could say a very, very significant, a huge sort of following on Instagram.
Speaker: So you're certainly sort of mastering in the realm of social media.
Speaker: Well, that's very kind of you.
Speaker: I mean, it is a constant source of...
Speaker: amazement and bafflement to me that anybody wants to watch my content for whatever reason, whether they're actually enjoying what I'm putting out or they are hate watching or whatever, doesn't really bother me.
Speaker: But I'm sort of grateful
Speaker: I mean, I'm grateful for, I mean, when I started doing these little silly little 20 second clips on Instagram, I said, well, I only had, he says, I had 106,000 followers, which is still incredibly respectable.
Speaker: And the be all and end all of life is not how many followers you have, I would just like to state.
Speaker: But then when I actually started putting them out, they're thinking, oh God, we'll, we'll,
Speaker: people really care.
Speaker: Now on Instagram, we've got 3.3, TikTok's 2.3, which is lovely because for years in my,
Speaker: other job, people, whether it's television executives, publishers, radio people, or even businesses I'm pitching etiquette training to would always go, no one's really interested in etiquette, are they?
Speaker: And I sort of knew that that wasn't true.
Speaker: And really what they were saying is they are not interested in etiquette, but they do not speak for everybody.
Speaker: Whereas now I can go,
Speaker: Well, I think you'll find 3.2 million people on Instagram are and 5.1 million people have liked a video of me picking up a tote bag from the floor.
Speaker: So I think you'll find they are.
Speaker: So it's quite gratifying 17 years into my career to finally be able to go, no, they are, and actually have some metrics to back that up.
Speaker: So it's hard not to feel smug, but it won't last forever.
Speaker: And I'm enjoying it.
Speaker: enjoying the opportunities it is bringing me.
Speaker: In fact, can we say that I came to speak at your wonderful school only a few months ago and I was very disappointed because the joke I, it was a joke I sort of semi had planned, which I thought this will bring, the teachers will probably be completely bewildered by this joke, but the students will get it.
Speaker: And it was a joke I had done quite by accident when I was doing some live shows in January.
Speaker: And on the live shows, I had a chalkboard on stage for scoring.
Speaker: and I had a score up from the audience to do the scoring.
Speaker: And alas, in your lovely lecture hall that I was talking to you about, there was no scoreboard or there was no chalkboard, there was no whiteboard.
Speaker: So I couldn't do this.
Speaker: But the joke was even someone, the scorer would make an error.
Speaker: And I would pick up the eraser and just go, I'll just rub one out for you.
Speaker: And it brought the house down.
Speaker: And I was sort of primed to do that.
Speaker: But alas, your classroom, it was a lovely tech screen that I thought no one's going to thank me if I start writing on this.
Speaker: Can we delve more into sort of your journey for fame?
Speaker: Because you obviously mentioned that perhaps one of your more infamous comments on social media.
Speaker: But how have you found almost this journey to fame?
Speaker: How long did it take?
Speaker: And you must be recognised quite a lot.
Speaker: Is that purely from the social media?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I don't think of myself as famous.
Speaker: I should just say that's not being modest.
Speaker: I have a public profile that some people may know about.
Speaker: of me.
Speaker: And you can normally, I can normally spot when I'm walking down the road, sort of as you look ahead as to who is, and of course, I'm not being in London, I'm definitely not on my phone, because it's going to get ripped out my hands.
Speaker: Otherwise, it's happened to both my husband and my brother in the space of about a month.
Speaker: So I'm sort of fairly off my phone.
Speaker: But it's, yeah, when I'm sort of looking ahead, I can sort of generally spot who's going to come and
Speaker: say hello before they've said hello, you sort of you get the feel of the demographic.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, I've done stuff on my first piece of TV was about 16 years ago for the for the one show.
Speaker: So I've done stuff in the public eye for long enough.
Speaker: And then when I started doing one of my podcasts seven years ago,
Speaker: that went quite big and people started to stop me on the street and say hi more than they ever had done before.
Speaker: But yes, the Instagram and TikTok, by the nature of the beast, that it is just serving these videos to people, whether they've even followed me or not, has broadened the net.
Speaker: And everyone is generally lovely.
Speaker: I don't really seem to get nasty people.
Speaker: The only time it's perhaps...
Speaker: I felt intimidated because I was finishing a meal with family in Bristol and we came out of the restaurant and there was a pub opposite and there was a group of
Speaker: I'm going to say they were probably in their fifties men and it was a Saturday night and they'd obviously been drinking for a bit and they were like, oh, educate guy, come on.
Speaker: And it just was like, oh, you know what?
Speaker: I don't want this now.
Speaker: I've had a nice meal with my family.
Speaker: You're clearly, you're not fans.
Speaker: So no, and that was the only time I sort of felt like I'm not in the mood for this today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So going a bit back in history now, we've talked about the modern world.
Speaker: Is there any etiquette rule from long, long ago that you don't think will change in the near future?
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: I mean, I think first impressions will always be important.
Speaker: again, how we give a good first impression might change.
Speaker: I mean, the handshake has sort of stood the test of time, it goes back to to ancient Rome and ancient Greece.
Speaker: So you know, we're still shaking hands.
Speaker: So that's probably going to be around for a bit longer.
Speaker: COVID didn't seem to kill it, it sort of, it put it in the cupboard for a bit, but it didn't, it didn't die.
Speaker: So I think eye contact, smile, warm greeting,
Speaker: I think the words will change.
Speaker: I mean, I can remember 17 years ago when I started my career sort of
Speaker: advocating for how do you do to absolutely be said by everybody, nobody says how to do anymore.
Speaker: You get some really stuffy people that might say it.
Speaker: I mean, occasionally I even catch myself saying it.
Speaker: And I'm like, why am I saying this?
Speaker: Because I know this person doesn't necessarily know what I'm saying.
Speaker: But I think as life becomes so international, people that are taught English and generally they're taught American English,
Speaker: not British English, whatever American English is, but they're taught that.
Speaker: And so how do you do is not in their vocab book.
Speaker: And they don't know how to respond to it.
Speaker: Even I remember doing something at the BBC in Cardiff years ago.
Speaker: And I said, it must be 10 plus years.
Speaker: And I said to one of the contributors who was there, I said, oh, hello, I'm William.
Speaker: How do you do?
Speaker: And she went, how?
Speaker: I'm doing very well, thank you.
Speaker: I was like, no, I'm not really asking.
Speaker: And I just thought as a Brit, it was very interesting that she sort of had that reaction.
Speaker: That was the start of me thinking, I think actually how to do probably needs to go.
Speaker: And again, you know, it's just an old fashioned way of saying, how are you?
Speaker: And is there one, as we sort of conclude the episode, is there one important etiquette tip which you'd encourage everyone to sort of remember?
Speaker: Oh, write thank you letters.
Speaker: It might take you 30 seconds, if not two minutes to write a thank you letter.
Speaker: But I can assure you, especially in this very digital age, I think a thank you letter counts for more than it ever used to.
Speaker: And also make it easy for yourself sitting behind, literally on a little gold tray behind me.
Speaker: I have all my cards
Speaker: that just say William Hansen on envelopes and stamps always sit on my desk.
Speaker: You know, just have it, make it easy for yourself.
Speaker: So it's not an effort to go to a production of writing something.
Speaker: Have a good handshake, make eye contact.
Speaker: And if you don't know what to do in a certain situation, ask.
Speaker: Don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker: Nobody is meant to know everything.
Speaker: And actually it's much better to sort of say, gosh, this looks delicious.
Speaker: How do I eat it?
Speaker: Than to tackle it badly and cause a scene.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: That's incredible.
Speaker: Thank you very much for being with us.
Speaker: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker: On this day.
Speaker: I think it's fair to say we've all learned lots of different things.
Speaker: If anyone's going to Japan soon.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Definitely lots of things.
Speaker: Thank you, William.
Speaker: It was a pleasure for us to have you.
Speaker: And hopefully, if you enjoyed this episode, you also go on William's podcast channels.
Speaker: He posts a lot more content than we could do here in 24 minutes.
Speaker: And see you next week.
