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S4 Episode 3: In conversation with William Hanson
8 Plays23 days ago
Today John and Dejan are joined by social media star and etiquette expert William Hanson. Tune in to hear them discuss everything from manners in Japanese culture to William's experience with fame. Please follow the podcast and rate us 5 stars.
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Transcript
Introduction of William Hansen
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast.
00:00:04
Speaker
Today you join us for a very exciting episode as we've got a very knowledgeable yet also entertaining special guest with us.
00:00:14
Speaker
So today we are lucky enough to be here with William Hansen, who's one of the world's leading etiquette experts.
Is etiquette still relevant today?
00:00:22
Speaker
And so the first question would be one that might be a bit obvious maybe, but why is etiquette still relevant today?
00:00:30
Speaker
We live in a very different world.
00:00:32
Speaker
Why do we still need it?
00:00:34
Speaker
Etiquette is...
00:00:36
Speaker
how we interact with other people.
00:00:38
Speaker
And however relaxed we get as a society, we are still interacting with other people.
00:00:44
Speaker
I would argue now etiquette is needed more so than ever because of the multitude of different ways we have available at our disposal, thank heavens, to interact with other people.
00:00:57
Speaker
We are talking, in effect, on a video conference at the moment.
00:01:00
Speaker
If even 10 years ago, this probably wouldn't have been
00:01:03
Speaker
quite as easily possible as it is, yet alone in the times of Downton Abbey or Jane Austen in sort of supposedly Etiquette's heyday.
Core principles of manners and their evolution
00:01:12
Speaker
I think back in those days, you could take an awful lot of time to consider your actions.
00:01:19
Speaker
If we were corresponding, it would be by post and it would take days, if not weeks to reach you.
00:01:24
Speaker
And I could sort of
00:01:26
Speaker
just state on what I was about to say to you in response to when I got your letter back.
00:01:32
Speaker
And so things were slower.
00:01:34
Speaker
And I think people just were by default, a lot more civilized because they had the luxury of time.
00:01:42
Speaker
Whereas I think now we don't have the luxury of time.
00:01:44
Speaker
We just sort of have to
00:01:46
Speaker
wing it, basically, when we interact with most people.
00:01:50
Speaker
And we interact with with so many different people from all around the world because of the technology that's available in our lives.
00:01:57
Speaker
You said a great thing there, which is sort of that we need etiquette now more than ever.
00:02:02
Speaker
Could you sort of expand on that maybe?
00:02:04
Speaker
Could you say if there's etiquette has changed or if it's just sort of expanded?
00:02:10
Speaker
So are there still some things that are the same, but there's sort of new rules being put in place for other things
Cultural variations in etiquette
00:02:17
Speaker
or...?
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, the core principles of manners are always going to be the same, regardless of what era we're in, of respecting people, pushing people at ease, treating people with respect and giving ourselves self-respect as well.
00:02:32
Speaker
how we do that changes over time and etiquette has it has to be a shape shifter it has got to change in order to reflect life as it is today it would be no use if if my colleagues and i who teach etiquette were sort of telling people well this is how you should behave in the court of queen victoria because that we are we're not in the court of queen victoria and that is of absolutely no use to anyone whatsoever um and so we you know we've got sort of
00:03:02
Speaker
get with the program to use a, I say to use a modern phrase, it's probably not that modern, but it certainly wasn't used in the court of Victoria.
00:03:12
Speaker
I was going to say, you sort of mentioned how we've almost got these cultures across the world which we interact with.
00:03:18
Speaker
How do we, let's say, if you are approaching a situation where you have to, let's say, go to Japan, for example,
00:03:27
Speaker
Is it hard?
00:03:28
Speaker
Have we perhaps lost or gained more awareness of these different etiquette systems or?
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm minded of a, so I run a company called the English Manor.
00:03:39
Speaker
It was started in 2001, not by me.
00:03:43
Speaker
But a story that the founder told me, which involves the Japanese, is when she started the company, she obviously had no clients.
00:03:51
Speaker
Often, that's what happens when you start a company, you start from scratch.
00:03:54
Speaker
And so she sort of had a bit of an in at quite a well known bank.
00:03:59
Speaker
in London, and sort of her contact got her in to have a meeting and she was pitching etiquette training and cross cultural awareness training.
00:04:07
Speaker
And, you know, these these sort of bankers listened to her very nicely and sort of went, not really sure, but you know, we'll keep your details on file that sort of response.
00:04:17
Speaker
And and off she went.
00:04:19
Speaker
And then a couple of months later, they had gone over to Osaka in Japan, which you know, this was in 2001.
00:04:24
Speaker
So it's a while ago.
00:04:24
Speaker
And
00:04:27
Speaker
Osaka is pretty, Japan generally, I always say the Japanese are the only nation that make the British look laid back.
00:04:34
Speaker
And Osaka in particular is more traditional, particularly in 2001.
00:04:42
Speaker
And the bankers from London went over to negotiate this big contract and on day one extended their hand
00:04:52
Speaker
to the sort of number two from the Japanese delegation ahead of the number one and where rank in Japan is so important.
00:05:00
Speaker
I mean, it's pretty important in most countries, but in Asian culture is very, very important.
00:05:04
Speaker
The Japanese were terribly offended nor walked out and they lost the million dollar or multimillion dollar contract.
00:05:10
Speaker
They then phoned up the founder and went off of the company and now run and say, I think we'll have that training now.
00:05:18
Speaker
And you just think, gosh, training, especially in 2001, it would not have been the cost that it is today versus sort of going over, winging it, thinking you know everything and messing up a big contract.
00:05:32
Speaker
I mean, it's extraordinary that it's this sort of almost innocent arrogance that a lot of people have that they think they know everything.
00:05:41
Speaker
You've mentioned the word manners there as well.
00:05:44
Speaker
Could you give us sort of a bit of an explanation of what the difference between manners and etiquette is?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yes.
00:05:51
Speaker
So manners are the guiding principles of interaction in every culture, whether it's Japan, Britain, Australia, Egypt, the United States of America, every country is geared up to being well-mannered to one another.
Royalty, world leaders, and etiquette
00:06:06
Speaker
How each culture does that is
00:06:09
Speaker
is by using a set of parameters or guidelines, which is often called the etiquette.
00:06:15
Speaker
90% of the time, the etiquette is correct, but sometimes in order to be more well-managed, to achieve that sort of ultimate goal, you have to break the rule.
00:06:26
Speaker
And as I said earlier, the etiquette changes.
00:06:28
Speaker
And the etiquette changes from country to country.
00:06:30
Speaker
So what is correct in one country may be completely incorrect in another country.
00:06:37
Speaker
This podcast is not sponsored by Visit Japan, but let's talk about our Japanese friends again.
00:06:42
Speaker
In traditional Japanese etiquette, as you may know, it is incredibly rude to blow your nose in front of people, whether you are related to them, best friends,
00:06:54
Speaker
or complete strangers.
00:06:56
Speaker
To expel bodily fluid in front of them in any form from any part of your body is considered incredibly bad form.
00:07:03
Speaker
And thus, it is more polite in Japan to, if we were chatting,
00:07:10
Speaker
sniff to let them know, look, I'm being so polite by holding in this sort of bodily mucus in my nose.
00:07:18
Speaker
Whereas in Britain and pretty much every other country, we'd think, gosh, that's jolly irritating.
00:07:23
Speaker
Please just go and turn away, blow your nose, come back and we'll carry on.
00:07:28
Speaker
But in Japan, the etiquette is completely the opposite.
00:07:31
Speaker
So obviously sniffing is not correct in Britain, but it's sort of correct in traditional Japanese etiquette.
00:07:37
Speaker
So etiquette, I'd say, as I say, 90% of the time, it's correct.
00:07:41
Speaker
But really what you want to always be is well-mannered.
00:07:47
Speaker
thinking about manners and etiquette, me and Dayan are both quite interested in politics.
00:07:53
Speaker
And I think one of the main things you see, whether it's royal families or politicians, is their manners.
00:07:59
Speaker
And thinking of this question, we're thinking perhaps we could ask you the world leader with the worst etiquette, worst manners, but President Trump makes that sort of quite obvious.
00:08:09
Speaker
So what is the world leader with the best etiquette or the best manners in your opinion?
00:08:15
Speaker
Well, I mean, especially we're speaking on St.
00:08:17
Speaker
George's Day, so it would feel very unpatriotic if I said anything other than His Majesty the King.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I do think that's where Britain and countries that have a monarchy or a monarchy, a constitutional one like ours are slightly, we've got the upper hand because thank heavens, if you look at countries that are republics or their monarchy is not constitutional,
00:08:43
Speaker
you know, it's nice, I think, to have your politics can be doing whatever it's doing, but at least those representing you on a state level are not getting involved in the sort of the mucky business of politics, and are just sort of serenely waltzing through life.
00:08:56
Speaker
I think that's a very nice, that's a nice thing to have.
00:09:01
Speaker
And I think too many people
00:09:04
Speaker
take that for granted, I think.
00:09:06
Speaker
But maybe the king is sort of a boring answer because you probably knew I was going to say that before I said it.
00:09:12
Speaker
But I think actually if you look at some of the other world, if we want to sort of cast our net wider, although not that much wider, I actually think President Macron in France does a pretty good job, particularly if you sort of see him interact with Donald Trump in Trump's first or second term.
00:09:30
Speaker
And Trump, we know, either deliberately or not, goes out of his way to make people feel uncomfortable, whether it's with handshakes that are a bit weird or being over tactile or saying things.
00:09:43
Speaker
And actually, Macron does quite a good job of sort of giving no indication that he is...
00:09:49
Speaker
affected or is going to rise or take the bait and sort of look serene.
00:09:55
Speaker
And I also think that's a great art that people are losing across the board is that almost people are conditioned that everything has to be reacted
Impact of technology on etiquette
00:10:03
Speaker
to.
00:10:03
Speaker
And actually, sometimes you don't have to have reaction to things.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, that is really interesting because, of course, the royal family is associated almost with manners, with etiquette, with sort of those stringent rules, one might say, on how you address each individual in the royal family to if you're supposed to greet them first or not greet them first.
00:10:30
Speaker
But it's also great to have that sort of more...
00:10:33
Speaker
modern, one might say, leader.
00:10:37
Speaker
And talking about modernity, you know, we're having this podcast over Skype.
00:10:43
Speaker
How has technology, especially modern technology, impacted etiquette and here, so social media and other things?
00:10:51
Speaker
Very much so.
00:10:52
Speaker
I mean, I think it's changed how we interact with people.
00:10:56
Speaker
I mean, I think in the world of business,
00:10:58
Speaker
Post-COVID, I would say most sort of meetings or initial meetings post-COVID are done on Zoom, maybe the telephone, whereas pre-COVID,
00:11:12
Speaker
they were probably done, the first meeting was done in person.
00:11:15
Speaker
And then if it was going to go anywhere after that, it would then move to an online or a digital platform.
00:11:21
Speaker
Whereas now I think it's inverted.
00:11:23
Speaker
I think actually we sort of are more reticent or maybe are a bit more careful with our time.
00:11:28
Speaker
And actually you can speak to a few more people on Zoom.
00:11:30
Speaker
if you sort of stack them up, I mean, I don't love doing that, you get Zoom gloom, but you can stack them up and people do.
00:11:40
Speaker
And then if the ones that you think are beneficial and you do want to invest some literal face time in the old fashioned sense of the word, you then meet up in person.
Social media etiquette and real-life interaction
00:11:49
Speaker
So I think the technology and the ability to communicate with people has changed
00:11:53
Speaker
the methodology of how we communicate with people and often our first impression of someone if we haven't met them in real life is what we see on their screen it is it is the glimpse into their uh home it is how well lit they are it's it's whether they're moving around when they connect or um whether you're seeing the underside of their chin um that that forms the first impression rather than the quality of the handshake do they make eye contact you know how close do they stand to you
00:12:23
Speaker
Is there any particular etiquette for social media?
00:12:26
Speaker
So we operate a lot on the new social media, so Instagram, even TikTok.
00:12:35
Speaker
Are there rules that people should follow there, apart from the basic?
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a different social media platform almost every year.
00:12:49
Speaker
Instagram's probably still, I mean, look, you are the future.
00:12:53
Speaker
So you tell me if Instagram is a bit passe now, but I think Instagram probably just about has still, yeah, still is still at the top of the tree with TikTok maybe a close second.
00:13:07
Speaker
Although I'm always convinced TikTok is going to be banned any minute now.
00:13:10
Speaker
So don't worry too much about TikTok.
00:13:13
Speaker
quite so much.
00:13:14
Speaker
But of course, Instagram does so many different things as well.
00:13:18
Speaker
It does, you know, post messaging, reels, status updates, calls, blogging, you know, it's almost a one stop shop.
00:13:27
Speaker
But I think the danger is that with any social media, it's that sort of people think it's there to
00:13:33
Speaker
replace our social lives and actually it should be better complement our social lives and it's so much more important how you come across in real life than how good your photo looks of you on a ski slope or having drinks with friends or at a barbecue or whatever and um you know i've i've got a couple of people in my orbit who are professional influencers or content creators and
00:14:02
Speaker
They're lovely people in real life, but you meet up and they are just constantly on the phone because they are documenting everything.
00:14:10
Speaker
Because that is the nature of the beast.
00:14:12
Speaker
And okay, that is their job to a certain extent.
00:14:14
Speaker
But you know, when we go out for drinks, I'm not working.
00:14:17
Speaker
I actually want to talk to them.
00:14:19
Speaker
And I think there is this danger that sort of people see and sort of forget to sort of separate the two.
00:14:28
Speaker
And I think I'm sure our listeners do know, but this is obviously in the context of William having, I mean, you could say a very, very significant, a huge sort of following on Instagram.
00:14:39
Speaker
So you're certainly sort of mastering in the realm of social media.
00:14:45
Speaker
Well, that's very kind of you.
00:14:46
Speaker
I mean, it is a constant source of...
00:14:52
Speaker
amazement and bafflement to me that anybody wants to watch my content for whatever reason, whether they're actually enjoying what I'm putting out or they are hate watching or whatever, doesn't really bother me.
00:15:06
Speaker
But I'm sort of grateful
00:15:10
Speaker
I mean, I'm grateful for, I mean, when I started doing these little silly little 20 second clips on Instagram, I said, well, I only had, he says, I had 106,000 followers, which is still incredibly respectable.
00:15:26
Speaker
And the be all and end all of life is not how many followers you have, I would just like to state.
00:15:31
Speaker
But then when I actually started putting them out, they're thinking, oh God, we'll, we'll,
00:15:35
Speaker
people really care.
00:15:37
Speaker
Now on Instagram, we've got 3.3, TikTok's 2.3, which is lovely because for years in my,
00:15:45
Speaker
other job, people, whether it's television executives, publishers, radio people, or even businesses I'm pitching etiquette training to would always go, no one's really interested in etiquette, are they?
00:15:57
Speaker
And I sort of knew that that wasn't true.
00:16:01
Speaker
And really what they were saying is they are not interested in etiquette, but they do not speak for everybody.
00:16:07
Speaker
Whereas now I can go,
00:16:09
Speaker
Well, I think you'll find 3.2 million people on Instagram are and 5.1 million people have liked a video of me picking up a tote bag from the floor.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I think you'll find they are.
00:16:21
Speaker
So it's quite gratifying 17 years into my career to finally be able to go, no, they are, and actually have some metrics to back that up.
00:16:28
Speaker
So it's hard not to feel smug, but it won't last forever.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I'm enjoying it.
00:16:34
Speaker
enjoying the opportunities it is bringing me.
00:16:37
Speaker
In fact, can we say that I came to speak at your wonderful school only a few months ago and I was very disappointed because the joke I, it was a joke I sort of semi had planned, which I thought this will bring, the teachers will probably be completely bewildered by this joke, but the students will get it.
00:16:54
Speaker
And it was a joke I had done quite by accident when I was doing some live shows in January.
00:16:59
Speaker
And on the live shows, I had a chalkboard on stage for scoring.
00:17:05
Speaker
and I had a score up from the audience to do the scoring.
00:17:10
Speaker
And alas, in your lovely lecture hall that I was talking to you about, there was no scoreboard or there was no chalkboard, there was no whiteboard.
00:17:18
Speaker
So I couldn't do this.
00:17:19
Speaker
But the joke was even someone, the scorer would make an error.
00:17:24
Speaker
And I would pick up the eraser and just go, I'll just rub one out for you.
00:17:28
Speaker
And it brought the house down.
00:17:30
Speaker
And I was sort of primed to do that.
00:17:31
Speaker
But alas, your classroom, it was a lovely tech screen that I thought no one's going to thank me if I start writing on this.
00:17:39
Speaker
Can we delve more into sort of your journey for fame?
00:17:41
Speaker
Because you obviously mentioned that perhaps one of your more infamous comments on social media.
00:17:47
Speaker
But how have you found almost this journey to fame?
00:17:51
Speaker
How long did it take?
00:17:53
Speaker
And you must be recognised quite a lot.
00:17:54
Speaker
Is that purely from the social media?
Timeless etiquette rules
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't think of myself as famous.
00:18:01
Speaker
I should just say that's not being modest.
00:18:05
Speaker
I have a public profile that some people may know about.
00:18:11
Speaker
of me.
00:18:12
Speaker
And you can normally, I can normally spot when I'm walking down the road, sort of as you look ahead as to who is, and of course, I'm not being in London, I'm definitely not on my phone, because it's going to get ripped out my hands.
00:18:22
Speaker
Otherwise, it's happened to both my husband and my brother in the space of about a month.
00:18:26
Speaker
So I'm sort of fairly off my phone.
00:18:29
Speaker
But it's, yeah, when I'm sort of looking ahead, I can sort of generally spot who's going to come and
00:18:35
Speaker
say hello before they've said hello, you sort of you get the feel of the demographic.
00:18:40
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I've done stuff on my first piece of TV was about 16 years ago for the for the one show.
00:18:49
Speaker
So I've done stuff in the public eye for long enough.
00:18:53
Speaker
And then when I started doing one of my podcasts seven years ago,
00:18:58
Speaker
that went quite big and people started to stop me on the street and say hi more than they ever had done before.
00:19:04
Speaker
But yes, the Instagram and TikTok, by the nature of the beast, that it is just serving these videos to people, whether they've even followed me or not, has broadened the net.
00:19:17
Speaker
And everyone is generally lovely.
00:19:20
Speaker
I don't really seem to get nasty people.
00:19:22
Speaker
The only time it's perhaps...
00:19:25
Speaker
I felt intimidated because I was finishing a meal with family in Bristol and we came out of the restaurant and there was a pub opposite and there was a group of
00:19:34
Speaker
I'm going to say they were probably in their fifties men and it was a Saturday night and they'd obviously been drinking for a bit and they were like, oh, educate guy, come on.
00:19:42
Speaker
And it just was like, oh, you know what?
00:19:44
Speaker
I don't want this now.
00:19:46
Speaker
I've had a nice meal with my family.
00:19:48
Speaker
You're clearly, you're not fans.
00:19:52
Speaker
So no, and that was the only time I sort of felt like I'm not in the mood for this today.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:00
Speaker
So going a bit back in history now, we've talked about the modern world.
Final thoughts and thank you letters
00:20:06
Speaker
Is there any etiquette rule from long, long ago that you don't think will change in the near future?
00:20:14
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:20:15
Speaker
I mean, I think first impressions will always be important.
00:20:19
Speaker
again, how we give a good first impression might change.
00:20:22
Speaker
I mean, the handshake has sort of stood the test of time, it goes back to to ancient Rome and ancient Greece.
00:20:27
Speaker
So you know, we're still shaking hands.
00:20:29
Speaker
So that's probably going to be around for a bit longer.
00:20:32
Speaker
COVID didn't seem to kill it, it sort of, it put it in the cupboard for a bit, but it didn't, it didn't die.
00:20:39
Speaker
So I think eye contact, smile, warm greeting,
00:20:43
Speaker
I think the words will change.
00:20:46
Speaker
I mean, I can remember 17 years ago when I started my career sort of
00:20:50
Speaker
advocating for how do you do to absolutely be said by everybody, nobody says how to do anymore.
00:20:57
Speaker
You get some really stuffy people that might say it.
00:21:00
Speaker
I mean, occasionally I even catch myself saying it.
00:21:02
Speaker
And I'm like, why am I saying this?
00:21:03
Speaker
Because I know this person doesn't necessarily know what I'm saying.
00:21:08
Speaker
But I think as life becomes so international, people that are taught English and generally they're taught American English,
00:21:15
Speaker
not British English, whatever American English is, but they're taught that.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so how do you do is not in their vocab book.
00:21:24
Speaker
And they don't know how to respond to it.
00:21:25
Speaker
Even I remember doing something at the BBC in Cardiff years ago.
00:21:29
Speaker
And I said, it must be 10 plus years.
00:21:31
Speaker
And I said to one of the contributors who was there, I said, oh, hello, I'm William.
00:21:35
Speaker
How do you do?
00:21:35
Speaker
And she went, how?
00:21:38
Speaker
I'm doing very well, thank you.
00:21:40
Speaker
I was like, no, I'm not really asking.
00:21:43
Speaker
And I just thought as a Brit, it was very interesting that she sort of had that reaction.
00:21:49
Speaker
That was the start of me thinking, I think actually how to do probably needs to go.
00:21:56
Speaker
And again, you know, it's just an old fashioned way of saying, how are you?
00:22:00
Speaker
And is there one, as we sort of conclude the episode, is there one important etiquette tip which you'd encourage everyone to sort of remember?
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh, write thank you letters.
00:22:16
Speaker
It might take you 30 seconds, if not two minutes to write a thank you letter.
00:22:20
Speaker
But I can assure you, especially in this very digital age, I think a thank you letter counts for more than it ever used to.
00:22:29
Speaker
And also make it easy for yourself sitting behind, literally on a little gold tray behind me.
00:22:33
Speaker
I have all my cards
00:22:34
Speaker
that just say William Hansen on envelopes and stamps always sit on my desk.
00:22:38
Speaker
You know, just have it, make it easy for yourself.
00:22:41
Speaker
So it's not an effort to go to a production of writing something.
00:22:45
Speaker
Have a good handshake, make eye contact.
00:22:48
Speaker
And if you don't know what to do in a certain situation, ask.
00:22:51
Speaker
Don't be afraid to ask.
00:22:53
Speaker
Nobody is meant to know everything.
00:22:54
Speaker
And actually it's much better to sort of say, gosh, this looks delicious.
00:22:57
Speaker
How do I eat it?
00:22:59
Speaker
Than to tackle it badly and cause a scene.
00:23:03
Speaker
Perfect.
00:23:04
Speaker
That's incredible.
00:23:05
Speaker
Thank you very much for being with us.
00:23:07
Speaker
Thank you very much for having me.
00:23:08
Speaker
On this day.
00:23:10
Speaker
I think it's fair to say we've all learned lots of different things.
00:23:15
Speaker
If anyone's going to Japan soon.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:19
Speaker
Definitely lots of things.
00:23:22
Speaker
Thank you, William.
00:23:23
Speaker
It was a pleasure for us to have you.
00:23:25
Speaker
And hopefully, if you enjoyed this episode, you also go on William's podcast channels.
00:23:32
Speaker
He posts a lot more content than we could do here in 24 minutes.
00:23:38
Speaker
And see you next week.