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S4 Episode 4: Metaphysics
55 Plays12 days ago
Today, John and Dejan are discussing Metaphysics, and in particular the Ship of Theseus and the Idea of time. Please follow debatable discussions on all social media platforms and wherever you get your podcasts. Also do give us a 5 star rating wherever you listen.
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Transcript
Introduction to Metaphysics: Identity and Time
00:00:11
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for a very exciting episode as me and Diane will have a short but hopefully quite insightful discussion about philosophy and in particular a few sort of delving into a few topics in the realm of metaphysics.
00:00:31
Dejan
So for those of you who don't know, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy which deals with sort of the more abstract questions of philosophy. So it's quite an abstract field. It's not a practical field of philosophy, such as, for example, epistemology. It's a bit more practical.
00:00:49
Dejan
Metaphysics is about as abstract as you can get. And today we're going to be speaking mainly on two topics, which is identity and time. But before that, I'd like to let John first introduce the first topic, the
What is the Ship of Theseus?
00:01:02
Dejan
ship of Theseus. Could you quickly explain what that is, John?
00:01:05
John Gartside
So as I'm sure our listeners know, Theseus is a legendary Greek hero, a very famous figure in Greek mythology. And this sort of parable or story around Theseus is let's say Theseus has one of his ships preserved in a museum.
00:01:25
John Gartside
As things do, the wood will decay over time. So to preserve the ship, the museum replaces eachlaed each decayed plank with a new one.
00:01:36
John Gartside
However, the museum does this over a long period of time, and eventually the ship is totally replaced with new pieces of wood and new planks of wood.
00:01:47
John Gartside
So Diane, the big question this beckons, is is this totally replaced ship of theseus still the with original ship
00:01:56
Dejan
Well, well, well, I think, is this the original ship? No.
00:02:02
John Gartside
no
00:02:02
Dejan
But the actual question, John, here, I think, is, is it the same ship?
Does Replacing Parts Change Identity?
00:02:07
John Gartside
yeah
00:02:08
Dejan
Could you say that the ship being replaced, is that the same ship? And I think there's arguments for and against. I think that, for me, my instinct
00:02:20
Dejan
doesn't really tell me much this time. It tells me yes and no. think this is for two reasons. Number one, I think if, for example, we swap the ship out, for example, with a person, a person with a prosthetic leg is still the same person.
00:02:33
John Gartside
Good.
00:02:36
Dejan
However, the question then is, what if a person had everything changed about them? Do they still have the same person personality, character?
00:02:48
Dejan
And are they the same? Probably not. And I think that is mostly to do with the fact that... Each particular plank tells a story.
00:03:02
Dejan
You know, that plank going through that journey... Through those waters, maybe it's bit moist, maybe it's a bit broken. It tells a story. It tells a story that this voyage has happened, you know.
00:03:13
Dejan
And the new plank...
00:03:16
Dejan
loses all that story, loses all the character that that story brings at Planck. And it's also quite an abstract object. You can't really ask it.
00:03:27
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:28
Dejan
But I do think it's almost as if it depends whether the the Theseus would believe so. For example, I think I'm going to give the example of a watch.
00:03:39
Dejan
You get an old watch. You know, it's old, you need to change its strap. Then you need to send it in to the watchmaker to make sure that the sort of mechanism, the cogs, are all working properly. Maybe some of need to be changed, they need to be cleaned.
00:03:54
Dejan
Maybe the dial's a bit broken. Maybe you need a new dial. You need some new hands maybe because they're bit rusty. Is it the same watch?
00:04:04
Dejan
I would argue that is the same watch because, again, it tells a story. It tells a story of change. It tells a story of you growing up, being older and wearing that watch.
00:04:15
Dejan
I don't know if that can be applied to the ship, however, because we don't have an owner.
00:04:21
John Gartside
I sort of see where you're coming from there.
Body, Soul, and Identity: A Deep Dive
00:04:24
John Gartside
However, I sort of disagree and agree in certain areas. But what I quite enjoyed was your analogy about the human body.
00:04:32
John Gartside
And it sort of sort of brought this idea into my mind of the difference between something being the same and something being identical, because Diane, you're the biologist here, but I'd imagine as a human grows, we have new cells and we get rid of old cells.
00:04:42
Dejan
Yeah.
00:04:48
Dejan
Of course. Yes.
00:04:50
John Gartside
And that's almost like the ship of thesis in a way. Our old, I guess, planks of woods, they get replaced.
00:04:55
Dejan
Yes.
00:04:56
John Gartside
And so we're not identical to how we were, but we are the same entity. However, we've just changed.
00:05:04
Dejan
Yes, indeed.
00:05:05
John Gartside
And I imagine almost that, could you say evolution in life, is similar to the ship.
00:05:06
Dejan
Indeed.
00:05:11
John Gartside
Perhaps something can be the same entity, but just in a different form.
00:05:13
Dejan
Yeah.
00:05:17
Dejan
Yeah, no, I definitely agree with you there. think that's a fantastic point that made in that our body parts, our, our cells, everything from ourselves that carry blood to our white blood cells that help us not die when we get cold to You know, all the cells in our body constantly, constantly, constantly dividing, basically creating new cells.
00:05:41
Dejan
And that is vital to replenish, make sure all cells are new and healthy, almost as if you would change a plank.
00:05:46
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:05:49
Dejan
But there is a sort of immovable character. Your character doesn't change.
00:05:54
Dejan
The new cells don't impact your character.
00:05:57
John Gartside
yeah
00:05:58
Dejan
Because you've got, you know, I don't want to say we have free will because I think that will just go into a whole nother direction, which I think we should avoid for today. But
00:06:09
Dejan
I also don't want to say we have a soul because that as well will also derail the subject.
00:06:13
John Gartside
I was about to actually say that the next thing I'll say, but maybe you could lightly touch on the idea of a soul. Just thinking about how we can change, but I mean, you believe in the idea of a soul, Diane, but do you not believe that our soul changes and evolves as well?
00:06:24
Dejan
Yeah.
00:06:28
Dejan
Yeah, so I think the definition of a soul is one that's really controversial among not only philosophers, but also just general, the general public. I've... There are people who say that the soul is sort of your defining self-characteristics.
00:06:41
Dejan
I, on the other hand, would define it as the sum of all your experiences, characters, emotions, and past experiences you have had.
00:06:53
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:53
Dejan
Your soul constantly evolves and changes. I think this is very clear in the case of some people. I mean, if you look at, I don't know, the gang members, right?
00:07:04
Dejan
I don't think you can say that one-year-old Al Capone has the same soul a 50-year-old Al Capone has. Because in that 50 years, so many atrocities have happened that leaves a mark.
00:07:18
Dejan
It changes your way of thinking, your way of operating in the world. I think that's what your soul is. Your soul is the sort of sum of your experiences that dictates how you view and how you interact with life and those around you.
00:07:32
Dejan
Now, us changing ourselves does not change our soul.
00:07:39
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:07:40
Dejan
But does the ship changing its planks change its
Do Objects Have a 'Soul'?
00:07:44
Dejan
soul? Well, maybe. Because for us, one cell is something we can't see.
00:07:51
Dejan
It's not a noticeable change.
00:07:51
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:07:54
Dejan
On the other hand, a plank, especially one that's, I don't know, maybe the wheel, that's quite an important artifact. It's like almost if you had a brain transplant.
00:08:06
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:08:06
Dejan
That wouldn't make it the same. People with heart transplants, this actually quite interesting. If you receive a heart from someone who's a smoker, you are quite likely to begin smoking as well because your heart demands it.
00:08:19
Dejan
On the other hand, you're also quite likely to not smoke if you receive a new heart or not drink if you receive a new liver because of the fear of damaging that as well.
00:08:30
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:08:31
Dejan
But that is a change in your behavior. If you're a really heavy drinker and you receive a transplanted liver and you say, you know, I'm not going to touch a drop of alcohol for the rest of my life. That is a change in your soul.
00:08:42
Dejan
That is a character change. That is ah different way of of your approaching life, in my opinion, at least.
00:08:48
John Gartside
Yeah, I really like the idea there. And I think that's actually a very good point that you brought up in that the analogy I sort of gave of the human body being like the ship isn't perhaps necessarily right because the ship, it doesn't expand like the human body does.
00:09:03
John Gartside
Nothing is being added to, it's rather just being replaced.
00:09:06
Dejan
Yeah.
00:09:08
John Gartside
And part of the human soul, you could say, as you said, if you believe in a soul, it's adding these new experiences. It's almost growing and not replacing them per se, but your cells, know, enlarging as your soul does.
00:09:21
Dejan
yeah
00:09:25
John Gartside
However, the ship on the other hand, if we take this analogy, being in a a new museum, These, as you say, Dan, these new wooden planks, they don't tell a new story.
00:09:36
John Gartside
And it would be of perhaps detriment to, let's say, if this ship has a soul or the entity of the ship. It takes away part of that history, literally. It sort of brings you back to a debate of, I think, you know, someone interested in history, does it become a replica?
00:09:53
John Gartside
because it lacks the true essence. It lacks, you can almost use the word, it lacks the soul of the real ship, which I think is quite interesting.
00:10:02
Dejan
What do you think about that?
00:10:04
John Gartside
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I would say, actually, if you do replace all the wooden planks of a ship, it does become a replica. that's total. I think there's an argument you can make for, is it a renovated?
00:10:19
John Gartside
Yes, but I think if something's renovated, then it's still got this idea of some original parts being present. So I think perhaps along the process, the ship is renovated.
00:10:30
Dejan
Yeah.
00:10:33
John Gartside
However, it achieves a state where it's just a replica because there is no part of that real ship. it lacks, as you said, that meaning, that identity behind it.
Free Speech and Open Debate
00:10:44
John Gartside
I will also quickly mention today's sponsor for this episode, which is the Free Speech Union, and in particular, the McTaggart Programme. The McTaggart Programme is a grant-giving programme administered by the Free Speech Union and aims to promote free speech and open debate among young people aged 16 13.
00:11:06
John Gartside
In the two years, the McTaggart programme has supported an array of new and existing student societies, as well as a range of individual wards that seek to promote free speech, like the Debatable Discussions podcast.
00:11:20
John Gartside
The programme is not just interested in supporting formal debates. It has also supported students to set up their own podcasts, as me and Diane have, create video content, organise socials on campus, or even in their local area, and travel to events elsewhere in the country.
00:11:37
John Gartside
They are open to hearing about ideas for performances, exhibitions, research projects, and other creative endeavours. The Free Speech Union's remit is very flexible as long as recipients of funding adopt an open and inquiring attitude towards ideas, their own and those of others.
00:11:58
John Gartside
To find out more about the programme and apply, please visit thefreespeechunion.org forward slash grants.
00:12:05
Dejan
Yeah, I think that's actually really important because we are in a world where dialogue is becoming less and less the norm. It is much more usual to simply end the conversation at the moment of this agreement.
00:12:23
Dejan
And that's really unhealthy for a multitude of reasons. I'm really happy that, you know, we are doing this here and we can sort of
00:12:27
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:12:33
Dejan
better ourselves by disagreeing with each other and learning some stuff from one another as well, as well as you having all these guests who some of them I do agree with, some of I don't.
00:12:44
Dejan
I'm sure you feel the same. But it is really vital for our society to develop that these conversations are being are held.
00:12:52
John Gartside
Yes, and so big thank you to the Free Speech Union for supporting the podcast and this episode.
Is Time Meaningful Without Events?
00:12:58
John Gartside
Shifting back to the realm of metaphysics, Diane, perhaps should we delve into our next topic? And this is quite a deep one for listeners. However, i i encourage you to keep on listening because I think it will be just as interesting as the ship of Thieson.
00:13:13
John Gartside
Let's look at the idea of time, something that obviously governs our lives. It governs history. It governs pretty much all understanding. So Diane, I'll dive right in and I'll ask you, is time meaningful without events? Does time depend on events or can it exist on its own?
00:13:33
Dejan
I do feel like going to be one of those questions we disagree
00:13:38
Dejan
i on. I, on one hand, do believe that time exists independently of events.
00:13:43
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:13:43
Dejan
I do think the example of sleep is the I'm going to use. When you are sleeping for five hours, you're not doing anything.
00:13:52
Dejan
You yourself, your point of view of time, nothing is happening. However, you wake up, And you say, okay, six hours have gone, seven hours have gone. Time has passed whilst you are unconscious and weren't able to understand and realise that there was a change in the passing of time.
00:14:09
Dejan
So that's my argument.
00:14:11
Dejan
What do you think, John?
00:14:12
John Gartside
Yeah, I find that interesting there because I agree and
00:14:15
John Gartside
think on that level you're talking about could you say, more of a micro personal level, you can sleep and there is no event whilst you're sleeping on my side trying to say that means time.
00:14:28
John Gartside
You wouldn't know what the time is, let's say, when you woke up. However, thinking on a larger scale, do think time or how we perceive time is governed by events.
00:14:41
John Gartside
And mean, I think the best example of showing this is calendars. So currently we prescribe, you know, our system of time is based on an event.
00:14:46
Dejan
Yeah.
00:14:53
John Gartside
It's based on the birth of Jesus. And from that, we prescribe that Jesus was born, well, now 2025 years ago. And we conclude that in one of those years away from Jesus' death, there's 365 days.
00:15:10
John Gartside
But the macro, the big idea around this is that we are measuring time based on a religious event.
00:15:17
Dejan
Thanks.
00:15:18
John Gartside
And so I think, and this religious event influences all of history in the sense that we judge all other events against the same core event, Jesus Christ death.
00:15:30
John Gartside
And that then can influence morality and things. So I think on that macro level, it's perhaps not is time meaningful without events perhaps i'm not answering the question the best but i do feel that how we perceive time that is that relies on events what do you have to say about that there
00:15:49
Dejan
Yeah, I do fully agree with you there. I do think that the way we perceive time is bound to events because, know, I don't want to give this example because it may seem quite plain, but if you're in a really boring lesson, it does feel like it just drags on and on and on and on.
00:16:07
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:16:08
Dejan
However, you're in playing sport or watching a ah really interesting film, time passes a lot quicker. And I think our perception and the way we see and sort of, don't want to realize, but the way we sort of realize that time has passed is very dependent on the things we're doing, on the events that happening around us.
00:16:33
Dejan
But I do also to think time itself has meaning without events. I'm going propose way experiment that everyone...
00:16:43
Dejan
Everyone decide, okay, we're going go to sleep at 2 p.m. UK time for an hour.
00:16:50
Dejan
Time has passed in that hour. No one's doing anything because everyone's sleeping.
00:16:56
John Gartside
ah ah Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:58
Dejan
Therefore, therefore, I don't think how you can say that time is bound by an event. Okay, that's unrealistic, but if you think about it, it's a possible thing.
00:17:08
Dejan
It's not like I'm going to say that want to fly.
00:17:10
John Gartside
yeah
00:17:13
Dejan
What do you think, John?
00:17:15
John Gartside
Yeah, I think that's interesting. i get I understand what you mean there in the sense that time can exist, as you say, almost independent of events. Like if everyone was sleeping, we're existing without this idea of an event.
00:17:25
Dejan
Yeah.
00:17:29
John Gartside
That sort of brings me on to another thing,
Is Time a Human Construct?
00:17:33
John Gartside
Diane. That sort of is a nice link into perhaps another question on, is time an illusion? Have we invented, i i mean, you're the scientist here, but is it an illusion? Is the passage of time an illusion? Have we just invented this belief that there are 24 hours on day?
00:17:50
John Gartside
A second, I mean, a second is obviously something we've invented. It's an invented unit of time. So yeah, is time an illusion?
00:17:57
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah, well, I think the answer yes and no. I mean, there are... The way we measure a second is because of a radioactive particle, which I'm going to s search out.
00:18:09
Dejan
Why is a second a second?
00:18:12
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:18:12
Dejan
And it is from the radioactive sort of...
00:18:22
Dejan
Yeah, so the duration of, it is because of the cesium-133 atom.
00:18:28
Dejan
So since 1967, the second. So it does have to do with sort of chemistry slash physics.
00:18:36
John Gartside
yeah
00:18:37
Dejan
But we've developed that system a lot earlier than that.
00:18:41
John Gartside
Right, yeah.
00:18:42
Dejan
I do think, for example, that time, as you said, well, it's obviously made up. I don't know. I don't think anyone can make a solid, well-reasoned argument that they're 24 hours a day and 23 or 25. If I decided...
00:18:58
Dejan
millions of years ago, there are 25,000 a day. Everyone would believe me. Just as if I decided that, I don't know, Monday's actually the third day of the week instead of the first.
00:19:10
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:10
Dejan
And that Saturday is the second day of the week. That's obviously made up. You know, these terms are obviously made up. However, do they have a basis in reality? I do think so. Because if you look at the weights of like the period, the sun is out in the summer,
00:19:26
Dejan
It does kind of make sense to use that clock where you have a large period of time. I don't know if 12 or 14. I think it's about sort of 16 hours of sunshine day,
00:19:38
John Gartside
yeah
00:19:38
Dejan
So you've got your seven, eight hours of dark where you're supposed to sleep and your 16, 17, roughly, hours of sunshine where you're supposed to be active.
00:19:43
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:51
John Gartside
I agree with there. And actually, as you've talked there, you've actually sort of convinced me that time really is an illusion. And how do we, if someone, let's say, a thousand years ago said there are 26 hours in a day, I think that would have continued.
00:20:06
John Gartside
And perhaps as the finishing mark of the episode, I'll give a sort of analogy, which you just made me think of there.
00:20:07
Dejan
Oh yeah.
00:20:12
John Gartside
And it's that China famously has one time zone. So there are people in China who obviously you understand sunset as not necessarily being the start of their day.
00:20:27
John Gartside
So the sunset may happen in China or perhaps obviously the sunset doesn't happen at midday, but their perception of time according to the sun is totally different.
00:20:39
John Gartside
it's not actually an accurate perception of time. So that goes to show that time is an illusion, because they're not perceiving time accurately according to science.
00:20:44
Dejan
Yes, indeed.
00:20:51
John Gartside
They're perceiving it according to, let's say, social construct.
00:20:55
Dejan
Well, I mean, way our calendar has begun is, frankly, it's Julius Caesar ordered the Julian calendar to be made instead of the Gregorian calendar.
00:21:01
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:21:07
Dejan
So the reason that July is called July is as a tribute to Caesar.
00:21:11
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:21:11
Dejan
caar and August is named after Augustus. So, also known as Octavian.
00:21:20
Dejan
So, you know, these are made up things. The fact that a month has 30 days apart from February has got 28.
00:21:28
John Gartside
yeah
00:21:29
Dejan
The fact that January's got 31 days and that November's got 30 days, for example. I mean, I don't see any evidence where someone can genuinely come with pure science and tell me, look, this is why November shall have 30 days in January 31.
00:21:51
Dejan
This is why July is July. this is why July should be called July.
00:21:56
Dejan
After Caesar. Yeah, was all made in Caesar's time as a consul and emperor of the Roman Empire.
00:22:05
Dejan
Not em... I dictate, technically. But these are societal constructs. We've just kept them. And who is to say that in 5,000 years, people won't think we're crazy for having seven weeks in a day?
00:22:20
Dejan
I mean, don't know if you saw, but I just saw couple of weeks ago, this guy online saying he's got 21 days a week. Because each day for him is six hours.
00:22:31
John Gartside
Yeah. But it shows how it's a construct.
00:22:33
Dejan
So, I mean, yeah.
00:22:34
John Gartside
You can construct your entire world. It is an illusion.
00:22:40
John Gartside
Yeah. So what
00:22:41
Dejan
Yeah, so I do think, you know, time is one of those things that is real, but also the way we measure it and the way we relate to it isn't.
Episode Summary and Listener Engagement
00:22:53
John Gartside
It's not, yeah. ah So with that, we will conclude this episode. Perhaps Dan, could you quickly summarise what we've sort of delved into today?
00:23:02
Dejan
Yeah, so today we discussed two big topics in metaphysics, which are identity, where we use the example of the ship of Theseus as...
00:23:14
Dejan
a ship removing all its parts, is it the same ship? I think we made some good points there about sort comparisons to human body, comparisons to just other beings and why maybe a ship is a bit different to us in that regard.
00:23:31
Dejan
And we also, of course, discuss time. Is it real? Is it an illusion? And does time exist within our outside events? I hope you enjoyed this episode. As always, if you have, please do leave us a comment, leave us a review, follow the podcast, as well as watch any previous episode you would like.
00:23:52
Dejan
If you're more interested in the philosophy episodes, we've done a great episode a couple of months ago on stoicism, on absurdism, as well as all our episodes with guests, with the likes Anthony Scaramucci being on the podcast, Vince Cable and others.
00:24:08
John Gartside
So thank you everyone for listening and do also follow us on all social media. More about the podcast. See you next week, Dan.
00:24:17
Dejan
See you next week.