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S3 Episode 5: Plato and the soul
11 Plays5 months ago
Today we are joined by Max McKinlay, a Theology student at Cambridge University. Tune in to hear us talk about Plato, The Republic, The Phaedo, and more. Please also follow us, give us a 5 star review, and listen to our past episodes.
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Transcript
Introduction to Philosophy and Plato's Theory of Forms
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast.
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Speaker
Today we're joined by a very special guest and we are back to the realm of philosophy, discussing a bit about Plato, the theory of forms and whether the human condition, what is it?
00:00:16
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Do we have a soul?
00:00:17
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Is there an afterlife?
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And we'll be tackling all these questions alongside Max.
00:00:22
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So yes, today we are joined by Max, a theology and philosophy of religion student at Cambridge.
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So it is great to have you on today, Max.
00:00:31
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Thank you for having me, gents.
00:00:32
Speaker
Looking forward to it.
00:00:33
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So firstly, let's explore perhaps the idea of the theory of forms.
00:00:38
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So firstly, Max, can you explain to our listeners what this is and how relatable would you say it is to our modern day understanding of the world?
00:00:46
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Yeah, so the theory of forms is arguably what sort of Plato is best known for.
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It's this idea that he splits...
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the world up into the sensible realm and the intelligible realm.
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And so stuff we perceive and then stuff that can only really be grasped through our mind and through reason.
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And the theory of forms is essentially the top of the intelligible realm.
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It is the end goal effectively for all people.
Plato's Theory of Forms and Religious Beliefs
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And you have forms which other things participate in.
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So if we say someone is good,
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what we really mean is that person participates in the form of goodness or the form of beauty.
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Now, whether there is an intelligible realm with these forms in, most people would probably argue no.
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But if you think of religions, for example, if you think of Christianity, you might
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argue that God is the source of goodness and God is the source.
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In fact, you probably would argue this, right?
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So theory of the forms, literally, probably not, but that doesn't mean they're not helpful.
00:02:09
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That's my opinion anyway.
Exploring Plato's Allegory of the Cave
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Speaker
Also, another very well-known theory by Plato is the allegory of the cave.
00:02:18
Speaker
Could you first tell us how this links with the theory of the forms and just explain a bit the context and why it actually tries to explain?
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, so the allegory of the cave is
00:02:29
Speaker
probably Plato's most famous piece.
00:02:31
Speaker
I know sort of the theory of the forms broadly, but the allegory of the cave, you know, really is sort of what he's most known for.
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It's basically an explanation of the theory of the forms where you've got, as I'm sure you gents know, but for those that don't, there's no trapped in the cave and they perceive reality to be the shadows of the puppets behind them in the cave.
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And one of them escapes and
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goes up and goes out the cave and he's dazzled by the light and he sees, you know, he sees that actually there's so much more to the world than what he perceived before and actually his reality, what he thought reality was before was just basically shadows and shadow games.
00:03:15
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The question of how, you know, was it how do we apply this to modern day issues?
00:03:19
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Yeah, yeah.
Materialism vs. Intellectual Pleasures in Modern Society
00:03:20
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Yeah.
00:03:20
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So,
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When you say issues, can you just... As in problems or... Can you just further elaborate on that a little bit?
00:03:30
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What I would say is how does the layman, the average person, how can they learn from the allegory of the cave?
00:03:40
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If they can learn from the allegory of the cave.
00:03:42
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, for me, they absolutely can.
00:03:46
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Whether you're religious or not, the allegory of the cave is, you know...
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argues that we should shift our focus from materiality and corporeality and sensibility over to, you know, sort of the mind and pleasures that go beyond our body effectively.
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And, you know, I'm sure you've heard the term sort of higher pleasures before in your studies of philosophy.
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And but that is sort of what it is the pleasures of the mind of the sort of higher pleasures.
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So I think
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It's really important because I do think that sometimes if you focus too much on, well, materiality, but also corporeality, you can get down a pretty troublesome road.
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It's important to an extent, but if you focus on it, I think things like greed and other things can become your end goal, which I think is not a healthy or fulfilling way to live your life.
00:04:45
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But that's, like I said, just my contention.
00:04:47
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Yeah, I agree with you there because I think there's the idea of this world of forms and of these sort of ideas and concepts which just don't change.
00:04:57
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And if you seek pleasure, let's say, in beauty, I mean, that could be beautiful art or something.
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But even though there is a material thing, that's a far nicer sort of pleasure, higher pleasure to derive than, let's say, you know, material consumption and things like that.
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And so I think, yeah, I think also like anyone can just sort of access almost their own world of forms.
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And that is leaving all this material world.
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I mean,
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you know, the world almost seems increasingly material.
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Everything's sort of about like a brand or, you know, these are like the way the modern world is constructed.
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So I think focusing almost like on the higher pleasures, you can really just sort of unlock almost like a deeper state of happiness from that.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I agree.
00:05:46
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Yeah, I fully agree with you there, John, as well.
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I think it's especially difficult today
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With the sort of consumerism happening in developed society, everyone's sort of, every sort of couple of weeks, there's something you need to buy something for.
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It's like, oh, if Christmas is coming, I need to buy something like Valentine's day in February, like two months later, then you've got Easter, then you've got, I don't know, like children's day on the 1st of June.
00:06:19
Speaker
exam results in august yeah and then it's sort of this cycle every two months you need to buy something let alone birthdays weddings whatever so if we're trapped in this cycle of going and buying things maybe we should just take a step back and focus a bit on on stuff we can't buy because these these sort of things that platy's talking about these higher pleasures you can't really buy them i don't think it's more of a
00:06:46
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You can put your time and that's about it and you can experience that, but you can't actually make a sort of transaction.
00:06:52
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I think as well, it's, um, what makes it such an attractive, uh, concept is I'm sure you've heard the term universality and you know, what that entails, but effectively it comes down to the issue that the theory of the forms is accessible to all.
00:07:09
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It doesn't require necessarily a belief in God or, you know,
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In other things, you can just, you know, condition your body effectively.
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I feel that has negative connotations.
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It doesn't need to though.
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You can condition your body into focusing on these higher pleasures and you don't need anything else to do that.
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So yeah, that's another sort of really attractive thing about the theory.
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And in my opinion, I'm not sure what you two think about that, but yeah.
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Yeah, I'd agree with that.
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I think it's one of the positives of it.
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It's quite free for people to subscribe to.
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It doesn't require any sort of larger commitment in some way, which I think is helpful.
Philosophical Debate on the Immortality of the Soul
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So moving on now.
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We know your dissertation is based on the Fido, which is one of Plato's dialogues.
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Could you first tell us what the Fido mainly is in a couple of sentences as a short summary?
00:08:14
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Yeah, so it's towards the beginning of the middle works of Plato, and it's effectively his thesis on death.
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It's not all there is to it.
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He also looks at the immortality of the soul in it.
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Especially what I'm focusing on is what he thinks about death, why he thinks it.
00:08:38
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Yeah, that's effectively the Fido in a nutshell.
00:08:42
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Oh yeah, so I mean you mentioned that this idea of the immortality of the soul and in many ways when whenever I've only really heard of the Phaedo not many times before but I sort of heard of it in the same sentence as this idea of the soul being immortal so it's quite a big question but do you think the soul is this immortal thing after death?
00:09:03
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I mean Plato obviously does do you think there's any you know weight behind his argument?
00:09:08
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Yeah this is the fantastic thing about
00:09:11
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well, not just Plato, but about philosophy generally is, you know, I could turn around and go, yeah, I'll know.
00:09:19
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But the real question is, what do you mean by the soul?
00:09:22
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Right?
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What is the soul?
00:09:24
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And this is an unanswerable question, right?
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People will give you, it's what makes you, you helpful, right?
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Like, what does that mean?
00:09:33
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But I mean, my faith tells me of a resurrection after death.
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So is that the soul?
00:09:42
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maybe probably like probably a helpful way to understand it um so do i think the soul is immortal potentially but i do believe there is a resurrection after death um therefore yes is probably the easiest answer um but i think it can vary and i think i wouldn't say a belief in the soul is actually
00:10:10
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necessary for it because whether you or not you believe in the soul like i said my you know i believe in a resurrection therefore i would probably say yes to this question what do you what do you gents think about it and and why i'm interested yeah i i agree with you max um i mean mainly again because of this sort of faith that we'd be happy to share and again i think it's the resurrection is is very difficult to serve
00:10:39
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justify in a way without justifying the soul first i think it's so if you need both in order you need one in order for the other to happen in some way
00:10:52
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Yeah, I mean, for me, it's sort of coming from like an agnostic sort of point of view.
00:10:59
Speaker
But for me, whenever I think about the soul, it just leads to more questions in my mind.
00:11:05
Speaker
Obviously, as you said, what is the soul?
00:11:07
Speaker
I mean, I don't believe it in the sort of...
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you know, I guess you could say the bit of the holistic sense of it, like as you said of who you are.
00:11:17
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But I think there's part of you and I remember Dayan, he talks about it a few weeks ago, actually with Max.
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And you mentioned how it was sort of built up throughout your life.
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And I think that idea of the soul does seem sort of quite reasonable in a way.
00:11:31
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It's something that's part of you, which is built as you are almost as you grow.
00:11:37
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But then for me, whenever I think of the soul, it's just obviously what is it?
00:11:41
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We don't really know.
00:11:42
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And secondly, where does it go?
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As in, so you mentioned obviously the soul being resurrected.
00:11:48
Speaker
I mean, does that sort of go to, you know, some kingdom elsewhere?
00:11:52
Speaker
Is that like, does that, does the soul perhaps, you know, go to another form of life?
00:11:58
Speaker
I mean, what do you guys think about the resurrection and how it links to the soul?
00:12:05
Speaker
Well,
00:12:06
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I think how it links to the soul is sort of what I explained earlier about it kind of being the same.
00:12:12
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Well, perhaps a pseudonym, like Christians will debate whether that's the case.
00:12:19
Speaker
But I think in regards to the resurrection, it's a really tough one because...
00:12:30
Speaker
we don't really obviously we don't know it's to do with death right like and it's one of those things in you know science can tell us very little about um but as i explained my my faith which i hold you know firm tells me of a resurrection um and therefore if that means the soul then sure yeah yeah yeah i i agree with that i think
00:12:56
Speaker
So the bigger contention, I think, when it comes to resurrection is whether there is actually a physical resurrection.
00:13:06
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I think that's a bit more contentious.
00:13:11
Speaker
But I think it's very difficult because, again, you can't really be sure.
00:13:20
Speaker
But the belief that I have is that it goes to sort of
00:13:26
Speaker
dantean paradise but um you can't know i think the bigger contention there is do we have a physical bodily resurrection like i don't know in regard but john for example you mentioned like kingdom like where does it go after for me yeah it goes to uh the kingdom of god right so that's something i can say with surety that it does go somewhere afterwards and i happen to call it one thing
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someone else might call it another.
00:13:59
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Right.
00:13:59
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Yeah.
00:14:00
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Yeah.
00:14:00
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And I think, and this also, it sort of reminds me of some studying A-level RS of this idea of the eschatological verification and how, you know,
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the beauty of this debate is how we never really do know.
00:14:15
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There's so many angles and you'd only really ever know if you are at the eschatology or you are where the souls go.
00:14:22
Speaker
I think that's what makes it so great to debate in a way.
00:14:25
Speaker
That's called faith, John.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
00:14:32
Speaker
Max, could you also just tell us a bit about your roads to faith?
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'd love to.
00:14:41
Speaker
So I was a pretty diehard atheist at school.
00:14:48
Speaker
My philosophy of religion A-level classes consisted of me vehemently arguing that it doesn't prove the existence of God, et cetera, et cetera.
00:15:00
Speaker
As listeners will have heard at the start of the podcast, I'm now studying theology at university.
00:15:06
Speaker
And there just sort of started this kind of
00:15:11
Speaker
itch it i didn't come to faith because um i was you know incredibly down or incredibly anxious or or anything like that it just started to sort of make sense and it also this is the amazing thing about faith is faith appears or faith starts for different people in various different ways a lot of people think that it's you know a religious experience for me it wasn't one thing i just
00:15:40
Speaker
As I learned more about it, it started to make more sense.
00:15:44
Speaker
Um, and I thought that faith was often making, you know, excuses as to why something can, like, if you take the problem of evil and you go, you know, how, like surely an all God, an all good God wouldn't allow this person to murder this person.
00:16:03
Speaker
And I always thought religion was just making excuses.
00:16:08
Speaker
But actually I did my research and I, yeah, they are justifications with, you know, apt reasoning.
00:16:19
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And yeah, so it just built up over time.
00:16:21
Speaker
And then it was, it's been very recent.
00:16:23
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I, you know, sort of has fully committed, you know,
00:16:28
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fully committed to going to church and that kind of thing and to my faith and to spending every day, you know, dedicated to it.
00:16:36
Speaker
That was within the last two months.
00:16:37
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So it's been a very new
Max's Journey from Atheism to Faith
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thing.
00:16:39
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Um, but I was, yeah, a diehard atheist for many years.
00:16:44
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Yeah, and I mean, I'm studying A-level RS at the moment and I can sort of, yeah, I can see how, and I forgot who it was, but there was another scholar we sort of came across recently and they mentioned how they almost had this journey towards faith.
00:17:00
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And it sort of, yeah, I think the idea is really interesting of how it sort of just, as you grow, it sort of just makes sense.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I think, yeah, because I'm, to be perfectly honest, I'm just not sure.
00:17:12
Speaker
As in, I think perhaps I argue against God more often just because, I don't know, maybe it seems a bit easier or, but in reality, I don't really know.
00:17:22
Speaker
So maybe, yeah, I guess the, it's sort of, as you said, it's like perhaps an itch, which just, yeah.
Plato's Concept of Justice vs. Modern Justice
00:17:30
Speaker
Moving on to the Republic, so something that you've probably also looked at as well.
00:17:36
Speaker
So one of Plato's sort of key ideas in the Republic is justice.
00:17:40
Speaker
So can you perhaps explain this and also say how it's relevant to the modern world?
00:17:45
Speaker
This is a fantastic question because it is genuinely a question of like, how long have you got?
00:17:51
Speaker
because justice runs throughout the whole of the Republic and the Republic is 10 books long.
00:18:00
Speaker
Like it's a, so no, it's, I mean, it's a fantastic question because there's loads to unpack about it.
00:18:06
Speaker
It's brought up in chapter one where Plato's writing and, you know, Socrates,
00:18:18
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gets a few definitions of other people like Cephalus and Polymarcus, that's how you pronounce it, about what justice is.
00:18:26
Speaker
And he just says, no, that's wrong, but then doesn't really give a reason.
00:18:32
Speaker
It ends in a deadlock where Socrates isn't providing an explanation or he's not providing his own reason.
00:18:38
Speaker
He's just saying that other people's is wrong.
00:18:41
Speaker
which I find, you know, quite funny.
00:18:43
Speaker
But then chapter four, sorry, chapter four, book four is where it really develops because you have the description of the city, which he kind of compares to the soul.
00:18:56
Speaker
And essentially, to be sort of brief about it, the soul is
00:19:03
Speaker
when the soul is balanced is appropriately balanced that's a just soul.
00:19:09
Speaker
So he has three levels.
00:19:12
Speaker
He has the, um, uh, the appetitive bit of the soul, which is the desire for sort of what we spoke about earlier, like money and, and corporeal pleasures and that kind of thing.
00:19:23
Speaker
Um, and then you have the, uh,
00:19:27
Speaker
what's it called we have the rational the rational bit of the soul at the top which is you know the bit which longs for truth um and then you have the spirit that's spirited part below that which is the bit which searches for honor um and then you have the appetitive which is the bit which search for sort of materiality effectively um and he says and he compares it to the city where you've got the guardians who are the people which search for um truth and um
00:19:57
Speaker
Below that, you've got the auxiliaries, which search for honor.
00:20:00
Speaker
And then below that, you've just sort of got the people who aim for bodily pleasures.
00:20:06
Speaker
And when that's appropriately balanced within the soul, so he compares that to the soul.
00:20:10
Speaker
When that's appropriately balanced, that's a just soul.
00:20:14
Speaker
And then when it's a just soul, then justice comes from just your intuition.
00:20:20
Speaker
So it's kind of a... I think his definition of justice...
00:20:26
Speaker
is very different to what artists, if you ask someone, if you went up to a random person on the street and went, what's justice?
00:20:33
Speaker
You wouldn't go, it's, you wouldn't, sorry, you wouldn't expect them to say it's the appropriate sort of balancing of the soul.
00:20:40
Speaker
you go, they go, nah, like, that's not what you think.
00:20:44
Speaker
You you'd have what sort of Kefla says in book one where he says it's a, is it careful?
00:20:50
Speaker
This is a Polamarkus.
00:20:51
Speaker
Sorry.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:52
Speaker
Sort of living up to legal op like obligations, being honest.
00:20:56
Speaker
Polamarkus says, oh, in friends, help and enemies harm.
00:21:00
Speaker
That's probably a closer idea of what you get from the random person on the street.
00:21:07
Speaker
Um,
00:21:08
Speaker
So it's different, but I think it's very platonic.
00:21:14
Speaker
It's the most platonic thing in the world.
00:21:16
Speaker
You wouldn't expect that definition.
00:21:19
Speaker
You wouldn't expect any other definition of that one effectively.
00:21:24
Speaker
So do you think these ideas have any relevance now?
00:21:28
Speaker
Obviously, our society has evolved, arguably, and developed in some way or another and has changed.
00:21:38
Speaker
But do you think these ideas still about justice and about this sort of appropriation of balance of the soul, do you think they still hold any weight today?
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:49
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:21:49
Speaker
I mean, it's a fantastic, I mean, I would say this because I've got a massive interest in Plato and I'm a big fan of him.
00:21:56
Speaker
It's a fantastic set of sort of ethics and appropriate balancing the soul, prioritizing the search for truth rather than, and sort of not, I don't think you should totally suppress corporeality because I think it's something that makes us human, right?
00:22:16
Speaker
But, you know, you should,
00:22:18
Speaker
you shouldn't let it rule your life.
00:22:21
Speaker
Again, sounds pretty Christian, right?
00:22:25
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think it's still massively relevant and massively helpful, regardless of your belief in the soul.
00:22:32
Speaker
You know what he's trying to say, whether you believe in the soul or not.
00:22:35
Speaker
And I think it's something to, yeah, it's something which can be very helpful in making you a happier person.
00:22:40
Speaker
I do believe that, yeah.
00:22:43
Speaker
I don't know what you guys think on that, whether it's fair.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree with you.
00:22:48
Speaker
I think it's sort of a bit refreshing to have that definition.
00:22:53
Speaker
It's obviously we sort of see a lot of issues now with the legal justice system around the world.
00:23:01
Speaker
Maybe that's not that effective.
00:23:04
Speaker
How do you mean?
00:23:05
Speaker
How do you make it sort of 100% fair?
00:23:07
Speaker
How do you make it sort of that
00:23:10
Speaker
wealthy individuals don't have a massive advantage just because they can pay for a better lawyer.
00:23:15
Speaker
How do you make all of those things so that justice can actually happen?
00:23:21
Speaker
I think this definition that Plato gives is one that can do that in some way.
00:23:28
Speaker
I think it can provide the answer to a lot of very difficult questions that we are facing at the moment when it comes to justice and fairness across society.
00:23:37
Speaker
I don't know what you think, John, about it.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah, I quite like how it's almost on a slightly deeper level than all these sort of... Because, you know, we hear the word justice always as it's at the centre of all our sort of like almost like societal problems.
00:23:52
Speaker
But really it is something, as Plato says, on quite almost like a deeper level.
00:23:57
Speaker
It's actually to do with you and inherently to do with you.
00:24:00
Speaker
And it is a balance.
00:24:02
Speaker
Justice isn't about more of this or more of that.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, and so it is oddly refreshing in a way, I think, to think about it on this sort of deep level, rather than just in a very political sense.
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah.
Philosopher Kings: Ideal Rulers in Modern Governance
00:24:19
Speaker
So now moving on to another idea that Plato exposes in the Republic, which is this idea of who should rule the city.
00:24:27
Speaker
And he comes to the conclusion that it should be a philosopher king.
00:24:31
Speaker
First of all, could you explain why that is?
00:24:35
Speaker
And then what is this philosopher king?
00:24:38
Speaker
Who are they?
00:24:39
Speaker
And do you think that it's apt?
00:24:41
Speaker
Can that work?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's spoken about sort of, yeah, Plato would say that.
00:24:49
Speaker
It's making me sound like I don't like him.
00:24:52
Speaker
It's just philosopher king to us, I think, in the 21st century is probably quite an amusing idea, right?
00:25:02
Speaker
Essentially, he says how
00:25:07
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:09
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:10
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:11
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:13
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:15
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:16
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:18
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:19
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:21
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:24
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:25
Speaker
I think that's a good question.
00:25:36
Speaker
And he says, because philosophers are the only ones that know how to seek truth, therefore they should be in charge.
00:25:47
Speaker
I think there are some benefits to it.
00:25:51
Speaker
you don't want a leader who is focused on the wrong things.
00:25:56
Speaker
Um, you don't want someone who is, is overly focused on themselves or on getting money or on getting fame or on getting whatever it is.
00:26:08
Speaker
You don't want that as a leader.
00:26:10
Speaker
Um, it's something that makes us human, but you don't want that as a priority.
00:26:14
Speaker
Um, so I think there are some benefits to it.
00:26:16
Speaker
Um, he justifies why is it amusing part where, um,
00:26:21
Speaker
Adiomantus says how philosophers are useless or appear useless and Plato goes, no, you know, they're not useless.
00:26:32
Speaker
They just, they're contemplative and they're just sort of thinking about truth, but we don't understand that.
00:26:40
Speaker
But other people don't understand that because they don't know how to seek truth.
00:26:43
Speaker
They don't know that there is a truth to seek.
00:26:45
Speaker
Therefore they appear useless to them, but actually they're not useless.
00:26:51
Speaker
um so which i think is a great well i think it's an a justification um how effective it is you know people will contend um so i think there are some positives to it um but i i'd be interested to see your guys um perspectives on it because it probably does seem like quite a weird concept to the average the average person
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think if you are going to ask one of the greatest philosophers ever who should rule, it probably is slightly inevitable that he says a philosopher.
00:27:24
Speaker
But I mean, I think there's sort of like an interesting contemporary parallel you can make.
00:27:30
Speaker
And that is just because politicians today, it seems like they're in it for popularity, perhaps.
00:27:38
Speaker
There's a sense of self-interest.
00:27:41
Speaker
And whilst this idea does seem a bit bizarre, a bit abstract, there's something that seems quite nice in it, how they're ruling for common good to discover truth.
00:27:52
Speaker
That seems like almost what we need, perhaps, let's say in the UK or in the USA.
00:27:57
Speaker
And so I think that does seem really attractive, this idea of someone totally not self-interested.
00:28:04
Speaker
But then, as you did say, Max, those sort of ideas of self-interest, wealth, they do almost make us human.
00:28:10
Speaker
So perhaps it just isn't realistic, really, this idea of a philosopher king.
00:28:17
Speaker
But, you know, the UK has had, I guess, a series of not very good prime ministers.
00:28:22
Speaker
So maybe if a few of them focused more on philosophy, it could have turned out a bit better.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think the realism, the realism of it and how realistic it is, is the most important part of it, right?
00:28:35
Speaker
Because is it possible to have someone who can rule whilst completely and entirely disregarding
00:28:46
Speaker
bodily wants, whatever they may be, or sort of these sort of simple pleasures.
00:28:52
Speaker
I mean, Dayan, what do you think on that?
00:28:54
Speaker
I'm going to be a bit more pragmatic on this one than I usually am.
00:28:59
Speaker
I think it's a bit impossible to happen from a practical perspective.
00:29:07
Speaker
I think the idea, though,
00:29:10
Speaker
is representative of something.
00:29:13
Speaker
I don't think this is one of the ideas that sort of now, at least we should take sort of literally as what Plato is actually saying, but more of what he's actually trying to say, which is sort of the characteristics of a good ruler.
00:29:28
Speaker
This person doesn't necessarily need to be a philosopher, but needs to embody these characteristics of seeking truth and not being sort of malleable when it comes to this.
00:29:40
Speaker
not being easily influenced by outside factors such as wealth, popularity, which I think also leads us to another sort of question, which is can this actually be achieved with how we elect people today?
00:29:57
Speaker
Because surely the only way to get elected is to gain votes.
00:30:01
Speaker
That's basically a popularity contest mostly.
00:30:04
Speaker
So what do you think, Max?
00:30:06
Speaker
Well, I think
00:30:08
Speaker
I can give my, I think you're right.
00:30:11
Speaker
I think you're correct in that, you know, it can become a popularity contest.
00:30:19
Speaker
I think Plato would say, well, the people who are voting don't know the truth.
00:30:25
Speaker
So, you know, it doesn't matter, right?
00:30:28
Speaker
Like they might be appealing to popularity, but actually they don't know what, they don't know that there's a truth to be had.
00:30:34
Speaker
Therefore they're,
00:30:36
Speaker
opinions don't matter, I think you'd probably say it.
00:30:41
Speaker
And like, I wouldn't go as far as to say their opinions don't matter, right?
00:30:46
Speaker
But sometimes people, how to say, and this isn't just politics, they vote for the person, not the politics.
00:31:02
Speaker
And that's not throwing shade at anyone in particular, but...
00:31:06
Speaker
it sometimes you know you get caught up in the person and you love the person and but actually it might be like a like a potential relationship you sort of you you love the person but actually they're not right for you right but it may not be it may be what you want and not what you need right um and i think i think that's a a fair thing to say in the current climate
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we've only really got to look across the Atlantic to Donald Trump, a man who sort of did master the media in a way.
00:31:37
Speaker
You know, I think he's entirely concerned about popularity.
00:31:41
Speaker
That's why he does all these huge rallies and all these, like, he goes on podcasts, I think, purely with the intention because to him it's a popularity contest.
00:31:51
Speaker
I mean, you know, astonishingly, he doesn't even mind that he's a criminal because, you know, he thinks he's more popular, I think.
00:31:59
Speaker
I mean, he's playing the game, is the way, and it's what we've been talking about.
00:32:02
Speaker
And if that's what gets him elected and into power, then, you know, it may not be good, but it's the way it is.
00:32:12
Speaker
And, you know, we can't really do anything about it.
00:32:16
Speaker
We can't say people can't, we can't just get rid of democracy, right?
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I think you don't even need to look at the Atlantic.
00:32:23
Speaker
I think you feel like a Nigel Farage and what he's doing in the UK with all the milkshakes and sort of oat milk and whatever else he's talking about.
00:32:33
Speaker
I mean.
00:32:36
Speaker
I haven't heard a single policy from him.
00:32:39
Speaker
That is actually sort of concrete.
00:32:42
Speaker
I've heard I'm going to cut down NHS waiting lists.
00:32:46
Speaker
How?
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:48
Speaker
Well, vote me first and I'll tell you after.
00:32:50
Speaker
That doesn't really work, I don't think.
00:32:53
Speaker
I think, so, you know, we are in a time where the major parties are losing control.
00:32:59
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:33:01
Speaker
We've been on this channel very critical of both Labour and the Conservatives recently.
00:33:07
Speaker
Rachel Reeves is one of the favourites that comes up and up again.
00:33:13
Speaker
So people are looking for someone else to sort of come in and save the day.
00:33:18
Speaker
And in order to be that person, you need to, you need people to know you.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:22
Speaker
So do we have a problem with the electoral system?
00:33:26
Speaker
Probably.
00:33:27
Speaker
But do we have an alternative?
00:33:30
Speaker
Probably not.
00:33:31
Speaker
I don't think.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:34
Speaker
It's a positive outlet, isn't it?
00:33:35
Speaker
I was saying, yeah, that's a mixed note to end on, but it does only show that Plato really is involved in absolutely everything, though.
00:33:45
Speaker
So I think he does encounter... Whitehead, the quote I gave to you at the talk I did on the Fido where Whitehead wrote,
00:33:57
Speaker
all of Western philosophy is but a footnote to Plato.
Plato's Enduring Impact and Closing Remarks
00:34:02
Speaker
And I think it's my favourite line in the study of philosophy.
00:34:10
Speaker
I think he's onto something there, Whitehead.
00:34:14
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:34:16
Speaker
Before we end, Max, would you be happy to just give our viewers a summary of the half an hour discussion?
00:34:23
Speaker
What have we talked about?
00:34:25
Speaker
This is something that people ask for more and more.
00:34:28
Speaker
30 seconds, 45 seconds of summary at the end so that they walk out with the structure.
00:34:37
Speaker
I will do my best.
00:34:38
Speaker
We have discussed the theory of the forms, Plato's most well known topic, the allegory of the cave, which is simply the explanation of that.
00:34:49
Speaker
We've looked at the Fido.
00:34:52
Speaker
hugely important work of Plato's, which, and the fighter contains his description of death.
00:34:59
Speaker
We had to talk about that.
00:35:00
Speaker
And then just some, some broader views of Plato sort of justice and these other concepts, which he just sort of chucks out and almost buzzwords, justice, philosopher Kings, what do they mean?
00:35:14
Speaker
Are they realistic?
00:35:16
Speaker
And I think what we haven't sort of talked about, but I think people, listeners, whoever can gain a sense of is the link between Plato and theism.
00:35:27
Speaker
And I think that's something that everyone, well, I think everyone should study Plato, but I would say that.
00:35:32
Speaker
But I think people should go away and have a ponder about the relationship between Plato and theism.
00:35:38
Speaker
Can we call him a theist?
00:35:40
Speaker
But yeah.
00:35:41
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:42
Speaker
That was absolutely fantastic.
00:35:45
Speaker
Also fantastic to have you here with us today.
00:35:49
Speaker
Hopefully we'll reunite in some time for another sort of philosophy-based episode.
00:35:53
Speaker
I think it was a great discussion.
00:35:55
Speaker
One of the best so far, definitely.
00:35:57
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:35:58
Speaker
Thank you very much for having me, Gens.
00:35:59
Speaker
Really appreciate you inviting me on.
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:03
Speaker
And thank you to everyone for listening as well.
00:36:04
Speaker
And also a big thank you to Max and everyone, please do follow the podcast, listen to some past episodes and give us a five star rating.
00:36:14
Speaker
Thank you.
00:36:15
Speaker
See you next week.