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Eoghan Lyng talks about the soulful pop sounds of Paul Carrack
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The multi-faceted and multi-talented Paul Carrack is synonymous with musical craftsmanship. Author and music journalist Eoghan Lyng taps into the appeal of Carrack and why his style and collaboration are coveted by artists as diverse as Eric Clapton, Roger Waters, Roxy Music, and The Eagles. We also discuss Carrack’s work with Mike + The Mechanics, his multiple (!) tenure with Squeeze, and how his trademark vocals and keyboard work on “Tempted” gave the band one of its most popular and recognizable hits. Lyng also chats about his interviews with Carrack and Glenn Tilbrook, both conducted for the online site Penny Black:
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcoming Owen Ling
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Cool for Cats with me, Amy Hughes. We're inviting you in for black coffee and a chat about our favorite band Squeeze. In this episode, I'm welcoming author of George Harrison in the 70s and journalist who has interviewed Glenn and Paul Carrick, Mr. Owen Ling. Hello, Owen, how are you?
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm very impressed with how you pronounced my name. Even British people tend to call me Egon. Are you in? And you got it right first time. Well, thank you. Full transparency, though, I did ask you how to pronounce it phonetically. And it is very unusual. I've interviewed quite a few people, as you say, but I think the one person who got it straight away was lolcreamof10cc. Owen, how are you?
Owen's Writing and 1970s Music
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, it's funny because his name is Lull and now LOL is so prevalent in social media chats. It's kind of funny that his name is that, but Owen Ling. How are you? How are things there? How is writing? How is music? Give me a sort of temperature on what's going on.
00:01:21
Speaker
Well, I kind of feel like when you ask a question like that, I'm going to be the hippie character in The Rutles. Music has been trans-mugulized and comfort-basicized and that wacky character Eric Idle plays. Yeah, things are going well. Like you, I write for Culture Sonar and I recently wrote a piece on Steve Marriott. My tastes are very antiquated.
00:01:49
Speaker
I'm 29 years old I'm not quite as hip with the with say the Kanye West's or the the the various hot takes of the day but I like I like the 1970s
00:02:02
Speaker
as well as it's getting on in years and it needs to be revisited constantly, as it were, because obviously Steve Marriott was a force to be reckoned with. And granted, it gave us Peter Frampton.
00:02:22
Speaker
to say the least, but I remember getting involved with the music of the small faces. It's like how music begets. You tend to start to go backwards, like, oh, Rod Stewart, which then means the faces, which then means the small faces. You discover how influential, especially musicians such as Steve, who are no longer here,
00:02:52
Speaker
And we talk about obviously a lot of musicians. I was just talking with a friend of mine and I remember, you know, going to see Jeff Buckley.
00:03:02
Speaker
back in the 90s. And a lot of legacy artists like Keith Ralph and people like that. So the one person that we can talk about though that is still around that is just absolutely vocally amazing right now is Paul Carrick.
Discovering Paul Carrick and Squeeze
00:03:23
Speaker
So you have had the good pleasure to speak with Mr. Carrick. Just off the top of your head, can you give me kind of like a sort of introduction to your avenue for Squeeze? That's okay, yes. I think my introduction was actually through Mike and the Mechanics because I enjoyed Mike and the Mechanics when I was about 16, 17.
00:03:48
Speaker
I remember being on, I was on a holiday with my family, my parents initially when I was 16 and that's when I heard Over Your Shoulder for the first time, Over My Shoulder for the first time and did some research on that and like I got to enjoy Mike and the Mechanics. Strangely enough I actually tended to gravitate more towards the Paul Young songs than the Paul Carrick songs although don't tell him I said that.
00:04:15
Speaker
songs like All I Need is a Miracle or Beggar on a Beach of Gold and I think it was through that that when I did some research on Paul Carrick I got to hear about some of the other bands he was in and then I realized oh if he sang for the band that had the big hit with Up the Junction because it's played everywhere in Ireland you could literally go into a cafe and it's
00:04:41
Speaker
It's commonplace to say the East Enders theme, and once I did some more research on Squeeze, I discovered songs like Cool for Cats and Tempted, which probably is the best Squeeze song, if we're honest.
00:04:55
Speaker
I would say that a lot of people do gravitate towards tempted and it's a mixed bag because of course the fact that Paul sings it and it stood out the most and yet in the canon of superficial squeezedom people don't realize that they can go back
00:05:16
Speaker
and hear things like Cool for Cats and Up the Junction. I mean, that's just my opinion because Chris mentioned it, you know, several times. I think he mentioned it once in his autobiography where, you know, hey, I'm in Squeeze, but I didn't sing Tempted. What's your perception at your age is how Tempted is viewed in the Squeeze canon?
00:05:43
Speaker
That's an excellent question. I would actually say it's probably the squeeze song that most people know about, but wouldn't know that it's a squeeze song. I mean, Cool for Cats, everyone knows that's a squeeze song. Up the Junction, everyone knows that's a squeeze song. But Tempted is the one that is a song that has become such a sole standard, and then people may be surprised to say, oh, it's by that band.
00:06:05
Speaker
because it's so singular, it's so out of place. I mean, I'm sure lots of people would know that 10CC had songs like Life is a Minestrone and Dreadlock Holiday, but then you might, but I'm Not in Love, which is probably arguably their greatest track. It's so outside of that canon that you might not connect that with that band, if that makes sense.
00:06:30
Speaker
No, it does because I'm a sort of a musicologist. I could understand that because maybe I would come into, I'm not in love and not realize it was 10 CC, but then go and do some research and find that out. But I think a lot of people also do not realize that even though they focus on tempted because Paul is just so mesmerizing and connects so deeply,
00:06:57
Speaker
and that style of song that their biggest hit here in the United States was Hourglass.
00:07:03
Speaker
Really? Yes. Tempted benefited due to the fact that the video was played so much on MTV. At the time, MTV started in the summer of 1981. There weren't many videos to be had, so to speak, that were crafted, you know, with that mindset. So, Tempted was available and Tempted got played like crazy.
Paul Carrick's Musical Journey
00:07:29
Speaker
Well, as it should.
00:07:31
Speaker
And I was also curious as to the fact that with Paul, he is, and let me know your opinion here, he's a journeyman. I mean, he was a journeyman before Squeeze. So did that also kind of help his reputation?
00:07:52
Speaker
That's very interesting. I hope Paul Carrick doesn't take offense to this, but I see him as like one of Rock's invisible men. There's this story about how he's going to work with Roger Waters of Pink Floyd on the wall performance in Berlin in 1990, but of course he has to sing behind the wall. So you hear these incredible vocals, but you can't see him.
00:08:15
Speaker
And in a sense, when you think about the fact that he's sung for Squeeze, he's sung for Mike and the Mechanics, there's another band, he sang a song called How Long, but the band escapes me right now. They sung all these great songs, but people don't realize it's him. Well, okay, so the band that he sang for is Ace. That's it. And that song, How Long, actually was very big in the United States. It got to like number three.
00:08:45
Speaker
I'm sure it was because of the style that was going on. They now classify it more as yacht rock. So I won't even go there, but Paul's voice definitely was able to carry that style back then and very accepted. And I've seen a video of him from that time and he has a beard.
00:09:12
Speaker
Please look it up. It's quite magnificent. I was I was very shocked so with Paul his his legacy if we can just use that word for a moment tends to focus on those kind of highlights with how long and then sort of working with a bunch of people before he
00:09:33
Speaker
he lands in Squeeze. My understanding is that a lot of it was driven from Elvis Costello at that point, or do you understand that Paul just had basically a great reputation in the music industry in the UK? I suspect he meant, I'm looking at my interview now, and he did say that he, when I asked him about Mike and the Mechanics, he said that was after his work with Nick Lowe and Elvis Costello.
00:10:03
Speaker
So I know it was Elvis Costello who suggested him to sing Tempted, which when I interviewed Glenn Tilbrook, he was very generous about it, saying that when he sang Black Coffee in bed, he was trying to do something like Paul Carrick could do, which I think is the ultimate compliment.
00:10:21
Speaker
Yes, and Glenn has said that Paul is one of the loveliest gentlemen he's ever met. That seems to come across, he's very unaffected in the fact that he's willing to be behind the scenes, literally. Yes, when I interviewed him, I said at the beginning, it's wonderful to speak to a musician of your caliber. All right, he said, get on with it. Does that make it sound like he's heard it a lot? I think it says more. All right, mate, come on. Okay, I'm just a guy from Sheffield.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, I don't intend to toot my own keyboard, so to speak. But he's also talked about that, where he's just like a guy that helps other people or becomes part of a collaborative. Why is that so appealing? What is it about Paul?
00:11:13
Speaker
Well, it's just, I mean, the fact that he can disappear into so many bands and he doesn't bring ego into it, that he just knows he's good, but what he can do to make other people better, that's a very generous trait, I think. It doesn't seem to happen quite often for somebody to sort of cross so many genres. Would you agree on that?
00:11:36
Speaker
A hundred percent, yeah. I mean, he's got one of the best vocals in rock. I mean, he reminds me strangely of Phil Collins, although Collins has gotten a bit of a bad rap in recent years, but that's a massive shame because what Phil brought to so many musicians often behind the scenes was staggering. Like, I mean, he played with Robert Plant, he played with Paul McCartney, and he just tipped them to that point of greatness, which I think Paul McCarrick can do.
00:12:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting that, do you know offhand, maybe I'd need to research this if Paul Carrick ever contributed to the Princess Trust, because to me, that started right after Live Aid, and then, although there was the Princess Trust has been all along, but 86 seemed to focus on quite a few stars, and it's kind of strange. It reminds me of like Ray Cooper,
00:12:32
Speaker
who is everywhere, but you just don't know it. And I think Paul would have slotted in perfectly during that performance. There's a mid-year, again, I had interviewed mid-year back in the 90s, again, sort of like a journeyman, but a guy who you can
00:12:52
Speaker
rely upon for the background stuff. But in regards to Paul Carrick, so he comes in and he does all this work with Squeeze visually and musically, and then that's that. What's your viewpoint about the one album for East Side Story, the collection of work that he did on that?
00:13:21
Speaker
I think it's, I think the East Side Story album might be the finest Squeeze album. I think, I think, I think is, didn't Elvis Costello produce that one? Yes, he also, I think that was also co-produced with Roger Beecherin as well, but that was supposed to be Dave Edmunds, Nick Lowe, Paul McCartney and, and Elvis.
00:13:44
Speaker
Just give me a second, I'm going to get my interview with Glenn Tilbrook up. Because I think Glenn Tilbrook mentioned that in the interview I did with him. For those who want to know, both interviews are on Penny Black, which is a British website. And I'm looking at it now. And he said, yes, he does mention that in the interview. It was supposed to be all of them. And it was actually the sort of brain trust of Jake Riviera.
00:14:13
Speaker
who was Elvis's manager, who came in and kind of, you know, threw that out there. But it didn't work out because Paul McCartney went to do tug of war.
00:14:24
Speaker
Nick Lowe, they just kind of wanted to drink with him and it wasn't very productive. They got in quintessence from Dave Edmonds. And then they went and did everything else with Elvis. My understand is that basically he whipped him into shape, would you say? Well, that's just Elvis Costello that he can, that he can, he can whip people into shape. I mean, he gets a great album out of the Pogues. It's an anarchic album, but it's still it's in such a controlled environment.
00:14:53
Speaker
And it seemed like that's what they needed at that point rather than sort of going off the rails, which, you know, everything was kind of loose. You focus on the instrumentation. Just for me, Paul Carrick's work in Piccadilly is phenomenal. Yeah, no, I'm a massive Elvis Costolo fan. The fact that he's very proud of his Irish heritage also makes me appear.
00:15:21
Speaker
It's a very appealing thing about him. Yeah, and like I said, I was just mentioning how things started to stand out a little bit more because Paul's style accentuates. It's not as sort of razzmatazz as Jules Holland's work.
00:15:42
Speaker
I think that tended to show a lot in any side story as well. And then his voice just manages to stay true. Even when he came back and worked with them for some fantastic place, you hear that loving you tonight. It's like, wow, he just stepped out from 1981. How do you how do you feel about that?
00:16:07
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with everything you say. I'm probably going to be the worst guest ever. I disagree with all of that. Was it you who wrote the piece on East Side Story for Culture Sonar? You know, that was not me. It was another person who did that.
00:16:32
Speaker
although I would like to have, but I mean, there's not a lot that you can say that Paul didn't have a heavy sort of influence on that record. And when you interviewed him, was that in person or was that by Zoom or? It was over the phone. It was a WhatsApp. It wasn't visual. It was just done over the phone.
00:16:58
Speaker
And how did you feel like when you were, is he a guy that tends to look upon his past as, hey, this is where it got me?
Focusing on New Music Over Past Hits
00:17:08
Speaker
What was your kind of like feeling when you were talking with him?
00:17:13
Speaker
He seemed to suggest that he was quite philosophical about it. When I complimented him on some of his achievements, he just said, yeah, but they're all like 30 years old, all those songs. And he says, what about new music? And like a lot of artists, he was more interested in what he was doing in the present than what he was doing in the past, which is a very life-affirming trait.
00:17:39
Speaker
because he continues to perform. He's got like a sort of now a swing soul big band sound to it. Yeah, he's got a, I mean, he'd released an album. This was back in 2021. I mean, and he was promoting an album. The name escapes me, but it was like it had much more of the soul soul rock influences of his of his trajectory.
00:18:04
Speaker
And yeah, I said to him that on some of the tracks he sounded like Billy Preston, which he took as a massive compliment. I'm just looking at my interview now and with Paul Carrick, and it was called One on One. Right. And he tends to go that route constantly, wouldn't you say? Because it's like this has become Paul Carrick.
00:18:32
Speaker
Yeah, if I can read from my interview, I said, one-on-one is an extension of this metaphorical cupboard and documents the singer enjoying his later years. The album opens with Good and Ready, a smooth, steely, dannesque track which sees the vocalist gliding over a tasty selection of horn skis and drums. Then there's You're Not Alone, a call for support during times of tremendous upheaval.
00:18:54
Speaker
Light in your mood, like the title suggests, is a bouncy stroll through memory lane, while the guitar-heavy shame on you, shame on me returns the vocalist to the blues genre where he most certainly belongs. And it's interesting too, because there's some of his album covers that feature him holding a guitar. Yes. Which I thought was kind of interesting. Has he ever talked about that?
00:19:16
Speaker
Well, he played guitar with Mike in the Mechanics. I mean, I think he plays on Over My Shoulder. He does certainly did in the video. It's just a little bit sort of, you know, mind jarring when you see that visual. Have you ever seen him recently in this kind of mode live?
00:19:36
Speaker
I confess I haven't seen him live, but I know he plays guitar and he also played guitar with Mike and the Mechanics live on stage, like he played guitar on the living years.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's like so funny, because before this podcast, and I was talking about meeting Paul Carrick and actually seeing Paul Carrick with Mike in the mechanics, that whole performance is almost a blank. And I was not like dreaming it did actually happen that I did see Paul, but
00:20:11
Speaker
The Mike and the Mechanics era, again, he has these hills and valleys where he's exposed more to the public, so to speak, in a pop sense. I just wanted to touch base on Mike and the Mechanics. That was supposed to be a side project, if I'm not mistaken.
00:20:33
Speaker
I think it was a case of the Mike Rutherford had he performed vocals on his first two albums and he wasn't happy with his vocals so he decided to enlist singers and co-writers but it kind of enveloped into a band more so than it I think like many things it was meant to be one album but then it snowballed into something grander
00:20:58
Speaker
How interesting is that, that, you know, underperform as Mike Rutherford, because you're basically, you know, in Genesis where Phil and earlier Peter were the stars, quote unquote,
00:21:13
Speaker
And then you bring in somebody of Paul Carrick, his caliber, and the thing just takes off. And also Paul Young, not the Paul Young, this is a different Paul Young who bless his soul is no longer with us. Yes, very sad. So, you know, there's it just like you say, it's snowball because of Paul Carrick coming in and providing these undisputedly fantastic riffs and his voice.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yes. Would you say that the voice has really been his calling card? Perhaps. I mean, I made sure to ask him about silent running when I, so, and he said, I can, he said they had a seven minute backing track with three chords that went, can you hear me? They told me to go in and blues away. So he went for it. And then then BA Robertson went away and wrote a lyric to it. The song was used in a science fiction film called Undangerous Grounds, which I don't think I've ever seen.
00:22:11
Speaker
I don't think I've ever seen it either, but it's kind of interesting because the feel of that song obviously gives off that kind of vibe, that sort of science fiction vibe. Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but he says it in my interview. I was introduced to them by B.A. Robertson and was initially for Mike Rutherford's solo album.
00:22:28
Speaker
Exactly, and because I had read something too as well where they at that point when Mike was doing this album that they had just done everything and then both Paul's kind of came in and just sang. Yes. If I'm not mistaken. Yes.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yes, I would agree. I interviewed Andrew Roachford a couple of years ago, and apparently very similarly, he just was contacted by Mike Rutherford to contribute to an album. And then next thing you know, he's fronting the rebooted Mike and the Mechanics. So what is with that? I mean, Paul Carrick was with the sort of, I'll call it Mach 1 version. Yeah.
00:23:09
Speaker
of Mike and the Mechanics for quite a while. He started then to become more prolific, so to speak. And then it kind of stopped after Paul Young's death. And so I don't know too much. So what has happened? Mike and the Mechanics was revamped, came back out again? Yes, I think it was 2016.
00:23:34
Speaker
that he found Andrew Roachford. Roachford, of course, was popular in the 80s with hits like Cuddly Toy. He's a singer who's been around for quite some time. And there's another singer whose name I've forgotten about, but I think that the two singer dynamic just breathed new life into it for Mike Rutherford. After Paul Young died, I think they all felt that
00:24:00
Speaker
They felt like the original band had lost some of its steam, but this new iteration has revived it for Mike Rutherford. I haven't heard this from Paul Carrick, but I'm led to believe he was a little hurt that Mike Rutherford didn't tell him he was reviving it. I can't confirm if that's 100% true, but I do know that he felt... I don't know how things are between him and Mike Rutherford now.
00:24:29
Speaker
It's slightly disconcerting, you know, that he might find out otherwise and not directly, unless, again, Mike Rutherford thought, well, that was a version of Mike and the Mechanics that we're not revisiting. Yeah, it must have made Paul Carrick feel like an employee when without him, without his voice, we wouldn't have the living years or a silent running. I mean, it was the voice.
00:24:55
Speaker
Exactly. And that's why I'm thinking how does it, I guess I'll have to go and look to see how it's perceived. It kind of feels like journey.
00:25:06
Speaker
When you get somebody who sounds like Steve Perry to sing the massive hits. And one of those people singing is not Mike Rutherford. And I don't mean to be facetious about it truly, obviously, while Carrick has contributed so much to that band that I could, I could understand, you know, the reasoning behind not being called back, so to speak.
00:25:32
Speaker
And the other interesting thing is that it seems like Paul Carrick moves very fluidly through so many different genres, especially like you said, where he kind of lives within this pub rock style, which I don't know. People have described that for how long? Do you understand that?
00:25:53
Speaker
I think it's pub rock in that it gets people singing in a pub. I think that's just the literal definition of pub rock. If people can sing along to a song with a pint in their hand, then it's pub rock. Because that does not seem right to me. But again, I understand the history back at that time about what was going on in the bands.
00:26:14
Speaker
that were supporting that label. But I can understand also here in the United States with Paul and how long, see that fit into the sort of FM genre where there was long play finally. It wasn't focused on the singles, so to speak. And although, you know, that was the single that Paul sang on.
00:26:40
Speaker
And then he moves to Roxy Music. I mean, that was like a revelation he plays on Roxy Music. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think he did it for the money, basically. I mean, they clearly liked his keyboard playing. I think actually, weirdly, when I interviewed him, he seemed down on his keyboard playing. He almost thought, why is Eric Clapton hiring me?
00:27:07
Speaker
I mean, I know Clapton has become somewhat of a controversial figure in recent years due to his anti-vaccine policies and some of the comments he made in the 1970s. But I mean, if Clapton wants you in his band, he recognizes you're a talented musician. So clearly, if he wants you to replace Billy Preston, I mean, that shows that you're a precocious musician.
00:27:30
Speaker
And you have a history which is undeniable, especially with somebody like Paul. Like you say, he just kind of slots in. And this whole situation with Roger Waters singing literally from behind a wall is just, I mean, that sounds kind of typical. It's almost like it leads into Mike and the Mechanics. How would you view it that way? Well, I mean, he'd already performed with Mike and the Mechanics by that point.
00:28:00
Speaker
By the time he played with Roger Waters, when I interviewed Paul Carrick, he was playing the whole, oh, I can't complain, sort of jolly northern English card. I mean, I left Sheffield, I'm doing pretty well for myself. But I suspect he wishes more people might know what a talent he is, which I think is fair enough considering what he brought to all these bands.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he did have pop hits literally, like literally after he left Squeeze, he did, you know, I Need You, which, again, was very popular as a pop song. And that separated him away from the sound of Squeeze. And then he even did, what was the other song he
Paul Carrick's Solo Career and Cultural Impact
00:28:53
Speaker
had on? Oh, Don't Shed a Tear.
00:28:55
Speaker
which was a big hit in 1987. So now we're far removed from Squeeze and he is having a presence, you know, right up until Mike and the Mechanics as a solo artist. But does he tend to not focus on those songs or that persona?
00:29:13
Speaker
I think it's more that while they were hits, they haven't had the lasting legacy of say, a silent running or attempted, which I'm like, I don't know, here in Ireland, you literally put on you literally listen to like RTE or a or today FM, and they're bound to be they're bound to be played over over my shoulder is literally all over the continent of Europe.
00:29:36
Speaker
So these are just these monster hits versus these these distinguished hits he had in his solo career, if that makes sense. You know, it's just you got me thinking, too, that maybe some of this tends to stem from cultural differences, maybe, or the way that radio is programmed or programmed back then, because
00:30:00
Speaker
The outstanding example of this would be McCartney's Mull of Contire. Yes. Which went, like, did zero in the United States. There was nothing happening with that song. Inconceivable. And exactly. It has no meaning. It has no reference to anything. Barely played it then and now when he tours, because I'm not sure why.
00:30:29
Speaker
But I kind of get that little bit of a feeling where the focus is on the hits in the United States and anything of significant impact, and now speaking about Paul Carrick, doesn't register here. How do you feel about that train of thought?
00:30:50
Speaker
That's an interesting train of thought. Now it's very interesting you bring up Paul McCartney because he plays completely different set lists in the US to what he does in the UK and Ireland. So like he can play a Mull of Contire over here, whereas over in the US he'll bring out the Rockers from the Venus and Mars album, which he would never play on this side of the pond. I would love if he played Call Me Back Again or
00:31:19
Speaker
letting go which he played wonderfully in the US but he's more focused on say the Beatles songs of the ballads in the UK and Ireland than say those monster, monster rockers which are much more American focused.
00:31:35
Speaker
As for that train of thought, I guess a lot of artists recognise that people are paying good hard-earned money and they want to hear these monster tracks. So if someone wants to see Paul Carrick, they want to hear Tempted, which, as he says, he doesn't mind playing it because he basically made it a hit, and the Squeeze guys aren't complaining, they're making the royalties from it.
00:32:00
Speaker
Now, oh, you know what? That just struck a thing with me too. So Squeeze did, or I'm going to say Glenn and Chris. They decided, I think it was 2010 or so, I can't remember the exact year, to redo a lot of Squeeze songs. It was called Spot the Difference. And they brought Paul Carrick back in to rerecord.
00:32:22
Speaker
This was mainly due to the fact that Chris and Glenn did not own the masters to a lot of the songs that they did back at that time. So they decided it was mostly a Glenn driven project.
00:32:37
Speaker
to do those songs over again. So have you heard the re-record of Tempted with Paul Carrick? I have. It's actually interesting because Glenn Tilbrook, when I interviewed him, he said that he prefers his vocal on the redone version of Black Coffee to the original because he felt he was a much more confident vocalist. That's what he told me.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, he did say that, you know, it's hard to get that youngin' kind of vibe back. But how interesting is it that he brings Paul Carrick, or they bring Paul Carrick back into the fold to rerecord? And he sounds the same. I mean, it's scary. I agree. I mean, the only other artist who I think transcends like that is Robert Smith, who can literally sing like he'd he can sing Love Cats like it's 1982.
00:33:27
Speaker
And I mean, he physically he looks very different to how he was in the eighties. I mean, I mean, he's put on quite a lot of weight, but he sounds exactly the same. And a lot of complaints do, you know, not to disparage Paul, but we're going to for the moment, Paul McCartney about his voice.
Paul McCartney's Voice and AI Technology
00:33:45
Speaker
You look at Paul Carrick, who can do that, and even Glenn, who can do that so many years on. And
00:33:54
Speaker
That's unfortunately what people would like to hear. Like you said, they want to hear what they heard 40 years ago, and that person is not that age anymore. And I'm not sure a lot of people have speculated why Paul McCartney sounds the way he does, that he can't reach the lines that he does. However, somebody did do an AI-generated version of him singing a song from Egypt station.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yes. Which was a mind blow. It was like tug of war era Paul singing Egypt Station era. Yes. And so I'm, I don't know, are we blessed to have Paul Carrick being able to, you know, come back in and do what he did?
00:34:40
Speaker
I don't know, that's interesting. I personally quite like the fact that we have different eras of Paul. I mean, okay, let's call it Old Man McCartney. I think Old Man McCartney's voice is perfect for the Women and Wives track, which was on his most recent album, McCartney 3, that it's about him looking at all the blessings he has, all his grandchildren, the women who have influenced him. I don't think Paul McCartney in 1982 could have sung it as well.
00:35:08
Speaker
with this kind of slightly little ting ting there. That's very good. I did my Paul McCartney for Stuart Copeland. He told me that Rusty Anderson, he was in his band and I was like, all right, Stuart, you can have him. But then he's mine. And Stuart said that was a very good marker.
00:35:33
Speaker
It is. It comes across quite good. And you're just doing it right off the cuff, which is lovely. But let's kind of delve into a little bit of this legacy, because there seems to be a tendency for people like Paul Carrick,
00:35:54
Speaker
and Paul McCartney a couple of years ago, and even Rod Stewart, they start to mine songs from the 40s. You know, the sort of the swing era, and what holds such a sway for people like that? Is it the vocal approach? It could be, it could also just, it's probably paying tribute to the records that were being played in the 1940s and 50s when they were young. So I mean, it could be, it could be them coming full circle.
00:36:23
Speaker
You look at U2, who released an album this year, Songs of Surrender, which is playing much slower versions of the rock hits that made them rich and famous, probably as a way of saying thank you to the pastoral Irish ballads they grew up listening to. It's almost like you couldn't imagine that happening. It's like a weird timeline of these, especially when I think back to seeing U2 and So Young,
00:36:53
Speaker
you know, and singing Gloria back on early days of MTV. And now, you know, you've got a 60-something Bono and The Edge with David Letterman talking about, let's go back to the beginning. And, you know, you reinterpret it. I mean, how far do you take those reinterpretations of your own music? What would be your opinion on that? Well, I mean, I think go all the way. You mentioned Peter Gabriel.
00:37:24
Speaker
In 2010 he released a covers album that was just based on strings and then he released another one so they were Scratch My Back and I'll Scratch Yours where first of all he covered other people's works and then he covered his own and he just gave it this new dimension
00:37:42
Speaker
and this new pathos and then of course the ultimate one is both sides now is it the singer is a Joni Mitchell she she re-recorded it in 2003 adding and she she was she was evoking and understanding the words she'd written as a younger woman
00:38:00
Speaker
It is disturbing, but also very insightful that a lot of these people who had a certain audience back at that time, do you sort of see with some things that are going on nowadays with the passing, it seems every second,
00:38:23
Speaker
of a rock icon that they're sort of now wanting to be that person to sort of sing you a lullaby, but, you know, not in the literal sense. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, one of my favorite McCartney tracks in recent years is My Valentine, which is sort of a lullaby message and it's very slow moving and it suits his autumnal voice. And, you know, it lulls you along. It's very sweet.
00:38:53
Speaker
And that's what I mean. There's this weird sort of thing where like you had mentioned before the podcast began about being so young and being interested in music from 50 years ago. And a lot of these, you know, a lot of your generation and slightly above it being appreciative.
00:39:13
Speaker
And a lot of those people taking a hold of the music and reinvesting a look into that. Some of us, you know, get kind of trashed because we're boomers and, you know, and, you know, oh, you can't get past anything that doesn't, you know,
00:39:31
Speaker
like Wet Legs or something who have made a breakthrough or, you know, SZA, you know, all of these singers who do have a voice, but yet they have so many more platforms and channels to do that. And so maybe that's why, you know, we want to see Paul Carrick sing something like Tempted because it stood out so much.
00:39:58
Speaker
But also it's just such a wonderful song and the arrangement is, I mean, Glenn Tilbrook, when he told me the original arrangement, he said it was like almost an ELO track. It was much faster. And he said, he said, thank God they didn't release it. Yeah, he said his ego took a little bit of a bruising.
00:40:17
Speaker
when Elvis suggested Paul Carrick sing it and not him. And I don't know if that's the weird thing, like you said, it suffered us a little bit visually for the United States at least when MTV started to go stratospheric.
00:40:31
Speaker
and you're wondering who's that like skinny tie, uh, punky haircut guy playing, you know, the Moog and, or the Prophet, was it a Prophet? I think they showed it, um, in the video. And then, you know, uh,
00:40:47
Speaker
he leaves and they're another they're a different band yeah so but i think paul moves paul carrick moves with the times you know he had his solo work with the sort of synthesizer based melodies and even into mike and the mechanics but mike and the mechanics seem to really take off i mean do you have an opinion like overall why that worked was it paul was it the songs was it what was it
00:41:17
Speaker
I think it was the songs, also the fact that they liked Dire Straits, although they might like to deny it. They were very yuppie-like, and I mean, when you've got songs like All I Need is a Miracle, they just sort of suited the era. Plus, they were very chorus-heavy. Mike Rutherford writes in his book how Tony Banks, who was the main songwriter for Genesis, always struggled with writing choruses, which Tony Banks was quite hurt by.
00:41:48
Speaker
And, yeah, I think they were very chorus heavy. They were very, if you want to say, they're very immediate, very immediate sounding.
Success of Mike and the Mechanics
00:41:57
Speaker
And the aphorisms, although a lot of people might sneer at them, are very universal, like a beggar on a beach of gold, which the theme is, be grateful for what you have, or the living years, which is, you know, be there for your parents, they're not going to be there one day.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, that was definitely something that seemed to resonate, I think, with everybody, you know, back at the time, even because they were in their life.
00:42:22
Speaker
late 30s, early 40s, looking at their parents, and now they're that age today, and they're doing the reverse of remembering the era of what their parents' music grew up. But the one curiosity, because I'm not definitely a granular searcher on Paul Carrick, was he wrote the song for the Eagles just around the time of Mike and the Mechanics.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yes, I think Paul McCarrick wrote for the Eagles. We didn't talk about it in the interview.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's a song called Love Will Keep Us Alive. I think Paul did it himself on a recent record for himself. And I listened to it, the Eagles version of it, and it's got a very high register on it. And so I was quite surprised that I would think, wow, this is a Paul Carrick song. I mean, he co-wrote it with two other people.
00:43:24
Speaker
But I quite liked it because it does have that soothing. Maybe that's the whole thing. Maybe that's the word, the adjective we need to talk about with Paul Carrick is soothing. And, you know, would you say it's distinctive enough that that's why people, do they want Paul Carrick? I mean, what is it that makes him go from project to project, in your opinion?
00:43:51
Speaker
I think Susie enjoys the work. I have to admit, I hate the Eagles. I'm with, I'm with, I'm with Joe Goldblum's character, not Jeff Goldblum's. I'm with the big Lebowski on that one. What's the name of that actor? Oh, Jeff Bridges.
00:44:09
Speaker
That's it. Yeah, I feel like him in the taxi being like, Hey, man, I hate the Eagles. You know, it's it is hard sometimes for people to relate. But then again, it's part of that whole. I'm not sure. Let me say this about the Eagles. And then I'll get back to Paul Carrick for a minute. I I've watched live videos.
00:44:29
Speaker
And they're just not theatrical. The songs are very expansive, so to speak, and sort of comfy, you know, that's a part. They're very comforting, which Paul Carrick is also, but he's got this sort of
00:44:44
Speaker
Anthem quality, especially maybe that's why, you know, he can do such a spectacular work on such a big thing like The Wall. Maybe that's where it stems from. Well, the Eagles covered one of his tracks on the Long Road Out of Eden album. I don't want to hear any more that they played.
00:45:06
Speaker
Is that something that we also tend to forget too, is how much lyrically he has contributed to songs because we're just so focused on his voice? Quite possibly. I mean, he mentioned to me that he effectively came up with the vocal melody for Silent Running, but B.A. Robertson wrote most of the lyrics on that one, whose B.A. Robertson is an accomplished writer.
00:45:33
Speaker
And also, you know, he, you don't tend to think of him in sort of a, in that way and, you know, hooking up with people and doing work like that, like working with, you know, Roxy music or, you know, you tend to think more keyboard work. I mean, I even found out he did work on the Smith's debut album. I mean, come on, what is that? Is that, what happened there?
00:46:02
Speaker
That's incredible, I did not know that. And I thought I knew quite a lot about the Smiths. I actually bumped into Morrissey recently in Dublin. It was actually two days before Andy Rourke died, which was very sad. Did Morrissey have anything to say when you bumped into him? No, the man who was with him, the man maybe his real life partner basically told me to go away. I will tell you that I also bumped into Morrissey. Really? During my time in England,
00:46:31
Speaker
And he was with somebody at that time. This was 1990. But he was actually going through CDs at the time, and they were Elton John CDs. So he actually, I had bought just a single of his at the time. I think it was November Spawn to Monster, and he autographed it for my sister before he got recognized. We were at the HMV, the On Oxford Street.
00:46:59
Speaker
Um, so anyway, back to Paul Carrick. Um, so he's, you know, he's, he's getting up in the years now he's, and, but he's releasing. Like every six months, it seems he's just got so much going on. Correct. Yes. I mean, he tours. I mean, I'm just looking at his Wiki now. I didn't realize he toured with Ringo Starr at one point in an iteration of the all-star band. Yeah. That sounds something typical. Like that's exactly what Paul Carrick would do.
00:47:29
Speaker
you know, for that time, but his output, you know, is phenomenal. It's, I mean, it seems to be focused on that swing soul genre. But then again, he would be speaking to his demographic, correct? Nowadays? I think so. Yeah. He's, he's, he's also putting a twist on it.
00:47:54
Speaker
you know, perhaps because perhaps he's not rocking out like he might have in the 1980s. But yeah, like, I mean, I'm, I'm the one and one album like his his voice was still as good as it ever was. And yes, you're right. I'm looking at his wiki. Now he did play keyboards on the first Smith's album.
00:48:12
Speaker
It's kind of like mind blowing. I mean, it's nothing that he has to sort of pull out of his bag and do on stage, just because that's just what he did. But isn't it interesting? And I know it's unfair to make the assumption or the comparison between him and, say, Paul McCartney, where you have Paul's like 10 years older than Paul Carrick.
00:48:39
Speaker
But what is it? How is it just sort of, you know, you're speaking to the same age group, you know, the age group that that that both of them grew up with. And now we're in their age and slightly younger. Paul wants to keep on rocking. Yeah.
00:48:58
Speaker
But Paul Carrick wants to go and do what he's doing right now. And he doesn't rock out with stage lights and a big show and smoke bombs and stuff. I mean, do you have, what would be your personal insight as to those two differences?
00:49:17
Speaker
I think just one just wants to do it very big and one wants to do it on a smaller scale. I don't think it's anything more profound than that. I have a theory as to why Paul McCartney's vocals might not hit the highs that they once did because for Culture Sonar I wrote a piece on Run Devil Run and I discovered that he was actually really screaming it out at that time probably because he just lost Linda McCartney and this was a therapy for him.
00:49:45
Speaker
and I think he may have shot his vocals during that period.
00:49:49
Speaker
That's quite, yeah, that's quite interesting. He sounded pretty good on chaos and creation. I think that was 2004 maybe, but I can absolutely see the time period that that could have happened. And I think it's just, like you say, it's a legacy issue.
00:50:17
Speaker
People want that song, that sound. Paul Carrick can still do it and deliver, you know, but maybe he just doesn't feel comfortable. That's not who he is anymore, would you say? Quite possibly, quite possibly. There's a chance that Paul Carrick has also taken better care of his voice. I mean, Mick Jagger has kept care of his voice since the 1970s, which apparently Paul McCartney didn't do.
00:50:43
Speaker
I mean, it just wasn't, I don't think Roger Daltrey took care of his voice either. They'd say you need to exercise your voice and you need to take good care of it. So who knows? Maybe Paul Carrick did that. It could be too. And he's obviously not been, he's had two gifts, his voice and his keyboard were. Yes.
00:51:09
Speaker
So people are able to call on him for either one or the other. And that's probably been his blessing, is that he is able to contribute, you know, like we said, playing on, you know, the Smiths, but then going on tour and singing with Roger Waters. Yes, I agree. I mean,
00:51:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think the only other person I can think of offhand who can do both is Phil Collins. Although of course Phil Collins had a solo career that kind of overshadowed everything.
00:51:39
Speaker
Right, that's kind of interesting that, and, you know, Phil admitted, you know, now that he has to sing sitting and letting his son Nick do the drums too because of all of that drumming that, you know, messed him up. And I want to go off in a big tangent here just for a second because we're talking about Legacy and Aaron, Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins. There was a television show back in the 70s called The Midnight Special. Yes.
00:52:09
Speaker
and they have just, or they have been establishing themselves on YouTube and re-sort of doing their videos and presentations and performances of the artists that appeared on the show and one that had a real big, big
00:52:25
Speaker
big mind blow was a performance of Genesis. And watching that kind of was just like incredible. They were a lot of people were commenting and saying that they couldn't believe they were finally seeing it. I think this was from 1971. Yeah.
00:52:45
Speaker
And the sound was great. They really gave props to the sound engineers on the show. And so you've got Phil in his bearded overall wearing stage to the side. You're watching Tony Banks do his stuff. You're watching Mike Rutherford do his stuff. They really made it a collaborative effort, even though, of course, Peter was out there with his makeup and his weird shaved head and all that other sort of stuff.
00:53:12
Speaker
So we're blessed that there are people that are going back and sort of with AI technology, like they did with Get Back, with Peter Jackson doing Get Back, that they're able to sort of revisit, you know, a time where, you know, not a lot of people nowadays were appreciative. But back then, no, you know, it was just like weird. Yes, of course.
00:53:35
Speaker
So I wanted to sort of, you know, wrap up and find out, you know, you've, like you said, have a deep appreciation for the music for a time that you weren't there for. And do you find that that's prevalent a lot? Do you have a lot of discussions with fellow
00:53:58
Speaker
writers or appreciators that are that are that are your age that are getting back to the the earlier times and not just focusing exclusively on the Beatles but I'm talking about that that era.
00:54:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's a guy called Ethan Alexandian. I appeared on his podcast. I mean, he's about 10 years younger than me. And he can tell you, like, he told me who played the harmonica on the on the on a British show called the Grey Stop Winston show. And he isn't his knowledge is probably puts mine to put my puts puts mine to shame. I mean, I turned to him before I did an interview on Keith West, an interview with Keith West.
00:54:40
Speaker
And so you feel that there is just, you just sort of like discover these people, like because of the fact that they're just tuned into, you know, the style or the genre from that era.
00:54:53
Speaker
Yeah, I also, in the UK, Cherry Red Records are doing great work reviving all these albums. They did a reissue of Mike McCartney's McGear album four or five years ago, which was fantastic. I think the reputation of that album has really shot up because of Cherry Red's reissuing.
00:55:14
Speaker
And they also figured out that a lot of people said, well, that was like, you know, the the pre Venus and Mars kind of, you know, lineup, because I think Jimmy McCulloch played on that. He did. Yeah, they felt like, you know, that was like the lost, you know, wings album, so to speak, just only because, you know, everybody played on it so much. I mean, Denny Lane played some great guitar on the album.
00:55:39
Speaker
Yeah, we always we always discover like these sort of lost gems, you know, things that we couldn't see or hear, you know, which is why I think a lot of people went, you know, insane with the with the Genesis clip, because bands were performing this stuff back then. And there wasn't a deep understanding. Hmm.
00:56:00
Speaker
You know of why Peter Gabriel looked and acted the way he did Or you know again with squeeze the hard to categorize pans From the 80s and like I said Paul drops in and then you know kind of fades back out But maybe we don't look at it like that anymore. Maybe that's why it's good to have you You know digging That's very kind Some people might like me to dig too much
00:56:31
Speaker
Well, again, you know, we are living in this weird social media era, and we don't know where it's going to take us. But like I said, as long as there is a generation before us, this music is going to be listened to for forever. And Paul's voice will always just be magnificent. Paul Carrick's voice will just always be magnificent. So, Olwen, I want to thank you so much for contributing.
00:56:59
Speaker
your insights. Thank you for interviewing Paul Carrick. I appreciate it. Well, thank you. Yeah, for those who want to read it, it's on Penny Black, which is a British website. And I will definitely put up the link in the show notes for everybody to go back to. So thank you, Owen, for everything. I appreciate it. Well, thank you for having me. And thank you for waving the squeeze banner. I'm glad to know that people enjoy them over in the US. I was worried they were too English to be enjoyed in the US.
00:57:29
Speaker
Never. It's always an open door policy here. Excellent.