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Interview: Jim Drury, Author 'Squeeze: Song By Song'
376 Plays2 years ago
Few journalists have been able to go deep when it comes to the back history of the songwriting partnership and longevity of Chris Difford and Glenn Tilbrook. In this episode, I spoke to Jim Drury, author of the 2004 book 'Squeeze: Song By Song.' In candid interviews with Chris & Glenn, Jim was able to get to the heart of their process, both as friends and partners in the realm of a collaborative, descriptive, and music-based biography. At that time, Squeeze was not in place functioning as a band. However, when presented with the prospect of delving into a rich and diverse project (even with an extremely tight deadline), Jim has supplied the Squeeze community with an insightful look into their songs, enriched through the unique dynamic lens known as Difford & Tilbrook.
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Transcript
Introduction to Jim Drury and His Works
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Cool for Cats with me, Amy Hughes. We're inviting you in for black coffee and a chat about our favorite band Squeeze. In this episode, I'm welcoming Jim Drury. His book, Squeeze Song by Song, is the go-to for the backstory on nearly every Squeeze tune up to 2004.
00:00:28
Speaker
His in-depth interviews with Chris and Glenn provide crucial insight into their songwriting partnership. And it's just one heck of a story.
The Birth and Evolution of 'Fistful of Chords'
00:00:38
Speaker
Hello, Jim. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for asking me. It's nice to be on this side of the microphone. Yeah. I'm going to preface by saying you've had a podcast called Fistful of Chords. And if I'm not mistaken, that's a Chris saying, correct?
00:00:58
Speaker
It is, yes. It's ripped off. They used to use it quite a lot, so I thought it was a nice expression.
00:01:08
Speaker
Now you've told me before we started in our correspondence that you did it as a lockdown project and then sporadically through 2021. So what are your thoughts before we get into your book? What are your thoughts about reviving it? Is that something that you want to do? I really enjoy doing it over the time.
00:01:36
Speaker
I was on the furlough from work, so I had nothing else to do, which is why I had the idea of doing it, as a lot of people did in lockdown. And it kept me sane. Since then, I've got a really full-on job. So I've forgotten about it, but I would go back to it because I did enjoy it and I don't get to do things like that very often. So I would go back to it. I've just sort of forgotten about it, but you've reminded me about it.
Simon Hanson's Story and Jim's Career Shift
00:02:04
Speaker
I'm glad I picked it up again because I'd seen it and then kind of sort of some episodes disappeared. And then I'm really happy that you got Simon on because I learned a lot. I learned a lot about Simon. He's very gregarious. But his backstory on his family was quite sad if we could touch point on that. But I was very happy that you
00:02:34
Speaker
got him like natural. Do you know what I mean? Yeah he's I mean he's wonderful Simon. He's such a such a huge character and yeah he was very open. I'd known him through the band for a long time and I didn't know that story about about his sister dying and until I thought when I asked him to do the podcast and he said yes I thought well I'll do a little bit of
00:03:01
Speaker
background research and I was astonished to find this story and it's such a tragic story. For anyone who doesn't know, his father and sister were killed in a light aircraft crash when Simon was a teenager. So yeah, what a horrible thing to happen.
00:03:26
Speaker
And he spoke very frankly about it, that it was just him and his mom that were, you know, left to sort of take on the responsibility of life. And it really, I was like, whoa, that's a lot for a kid teenager to take on. Yeah, yeah, it was, I mean, he's got such a character, he's someone who seems to be able to deal with
00:03:56
Speaker
anything and maybe that's part of that has come from such a tragedy I don't know I'm not a psychologist but yeah it's yeah such it's a astonishing story
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, I really, I thank you for giving us that personal side of Simon because it really helped me to see a person, you know? And they've apparently been putting out a great show over there in the UK on the tour. So I'm really happy. Just wanted to, you know, say thank you. So listeners, go and look up. Fist full of cords, Jim Drury.
00:04:38
Speaker
But let's start off, let's start at the very beginning, A Very Good Plus to start. You, fill me in on the timeline because you've done two books in the essence of song by song.
00:04:56
Speaker
So the first one was with Hugh Cornwell of The Stranglers. That may not be a familiar name to the people here in the States, but for the UK, Hugh was like huge. So how that came about, that was like a lot of things that have happened in my career, a huge fluke. I wasn't a music journalist, I was a journalist, I spent
00:05:26
Speaker
20-odd years working at Reuters for working on TV. And I'd done an interview with the Stranglers, who were my favorite band. I've got to say, sorry, folks. Stranglers still my favorite band. And I'd done this interview and I said, well, what could we do on with Hugh Cornwell? Because he'd left and it was quite a nasty breakup and the two sides still now don't speak.
00:05:57
Speaker
And so I got his side and the week after I'd done the interview, his manager phoned me and said, oh, Hugh's looking for a journalist to write a book with about every song in the strangler's catalogue. Would you be interested?
The Journey to Writing 'Squeeze Song by Song'
00:06:13
Speaker
And I was like, well, he's the pipe Catholic. So I got to do that. And that was fantastic experience. And then it led to the next book, which was The Enduring the Blockheads.
00:06:26
Speaker
which then led to Squeeze. And the Squeeze, funnily enough, the Squeeze idea, I had a list of about five bands. Squeeze was on the list. And before I opened my mouth at the meeting, the executive commissioning editor said, would you be interested in doing a book on Squeeze? We've got them signed up. And I've punched the air. I thought that'd be brilliant. I'd love to do a book on Squeeze. And it all happened very quickly from then on.
00:06:56
Speaker
It's interesting because there's two parts to this. One is this book is cited as an incredibly necessity for understanding where Chris and Glenn, how things evolved, and you were just able to nod.
00:07:15
Speaker
only making an interview and a question and answer, but you gave a lot of insightful background about their lives. However, this book is very hard to find. I will admit that I did have to get it from, well, someplace, and was actually assigned a copy that Glenn Tillbrook signed.
00:07:42
Speaker
Oh, brilliant. So first off, let's talk about where this book is in the universe, because it is very hard to find. It's because after the Squeeze book, Sanctuary went into administration, not because of the Squeeze book, but they went into administration. They'd done some, they'd taken on too many side projects, I think.
00:08:12
Speaker
and they went into administration and the book went out of print. And it's very frustrating because we have looked into it a few times. And there was a window that no one knew about within six months of the company going under where you can take the rights back. And of course no one told us that. So it belongs to a publisher who could republish it if they wanted to. So yeah, you can only buy it online.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yes, which is very annoying. It is. I mean, I mean, you could find a secondhand shop, I guess. But for all of those, you know, in today's world, that's how we have to find it is just go somewhere and, you know, hope it's available as a use because I've seen some ridiculous prices. Some people want like $100 for it. That's US dollars. And I'm sure I think I think a lot of that is done by algorithm. Actually, someone told me this because
00:09:13
Speaker
The same thing happened with the Stranglers book where at one stage it was going up online for £320, which was absurd. And then a few months later it was then being sold for £25. And I think somehow it's done by algorithm. So the Squeeze book was for a long time. You could buy it for a decent price. And the year during the Blockheads book, because it had been an encore,
Exploration of Squeeze's Music and Legacy
00:09:43
Speaker
series where there was a second version. You could buy that for a penny, but now you can't because I think I bought up most of the ones for a penny.
00:09:52
Speaker
Right, you know, Jim's gonna be outside abroad saying, hey, you want this book on squeeze? Out of the back of his truck. No, it's, I mean, I'm very happy that a lot of people, you know, know about it. That's about all. They know about this book, but they say it's great. It's required reading. Yeah, it is frustrating, though, because you do have a this, everyone has that kind of professional
00:10:23
Speaker
So there you go. It used to be quite nice. You'd go into a shop and you'd have a look and see if your books were there. And I haven't had that experience for 15 years because...
00:10:33
Speaker
out of print. Right. And I'm just putting it out there because for the people that I have conversations with, that book is just recommended very highly. So if you can find it, it would be amazing. I mean, at a reasonable price.
00:10:53
Speaker
So, but we're here to discuss it. So, but let me go way back and ask you how you found out about Squeeze. Well, I mean, I was aware of them. So I'm 50. So when the first record came out, I would have been five or six. I wouldn't have known about them then. But I remember watching Top of the Pots, which was the big UK show here and seeing them on Top of the Pots.
00:11:23
Speaker
And then I saw them once, when I was about 18 or 19, they played at my, my sister was the social secretary at a college and they booked squeeze. This would have been around the time of play and saw them play and they were amazing. In fact, I got assaulted by one of their roadies, which is another story. But I then had a girlfriend at university
00:11:49
Speaker
around 1992-ish. She was a big squeeze fan and we went to see them two or three times together. But I never quite got into them. I liked the records she played but I was very dogmatic about what I listened to in those days. So I had probably a couple of albums of theirs but didn't really dip my toe in anymore. And then when the book came up,
00:12:12
Speaker
I was told, the timeline was a ridiculously short amount of time to do it. And I was told, you've got your meet, if you're up for this, you'll meet Glenn and Chris in two weeks time. So I immediately went out and bought that entire back catalogue. And within two weeks, I was like, why have I not been listening to this music before? It's amazing. I hadn't realized, I really hadn't realized just how good they were.
00:12:39
Speaker
So I had to give myself a big education and then somehow became enough of a, you know, if you're a journalist, you can make yourself of enough of an expert on something in quite a short time if you need to. So that's what happened. So by the time I met Glenn and Chris, I could talk as if I knew enough about them.
00:12:57
Speaker
Well you did absolutely because I mean this book just goes everywhere. I mean this is such a deep dive where there was nothing beforehand, before 2004 to be honest. It was just the songs.
00:13:12
Speaker
And, you know, journalists and magazines and newspapers and some of the odd TV stuff on both sides of the Atlantic would be able to get, you know, something out of Chris Orgland. But it always seemed to be the same thing over and over. And I don't mean...
00:13:30
Speaker
I don't mean the Lennon McCartney tag so much, but you really just took a shovel and you went for it. I don't know if that's the right analogy. I really like that analogy. I think that's great. I've taken that as a massive compliment.
00:13:50
Speaker
You're welcome. So you've got this massively insane short of time. And let me also put a little caveat in here that there was no squeeze in the time that you were talking to them. So that must have been strange. Yeah, it was. Because I didn't
00:14:18
Speaker
Up until I started doing the research, I didn't know that there had been any kind of friction. In some way, maybe that helped actually.
00:14:32
Speaker
their personalities were definitely shown through in their interviews. But as a commodity, squeeze just didn't happen at that time. So that must have been very interesting for you to go and talk to them both. Did you actually... Here's an interesting question some people have asked. Did you ever interview them together? No. And that wasn't...
00:15:02
Speaker
The main reason for that, because it was such a time sensitive issue, basically I had 10 weeks to do the research and write it. So it was a very short amount of time and Glenn was on the road with the fluffers. So it was a matter of necessity. I had to go on the tour bus with Glenn, which was great fun, as you can imagine, an amazing host. So it was done by necessity.
00:15:31
Speaker
getting everyone's calendar together. And I think it meant that they could be quite open. It wasn't deliberately done that they wouldn't be in the same room. I met them first at Glenn's old studio, 45 RPM, and they both gave each other this massive hug and the first five minutes they only had eyes for each other. It was really nice to see actually. And they hadn't seen each other for quite a while. And then
00:15:58
Speaker
I had to sit down with them. I remember having to be a little bit schoolmaster and saying, I've got this really hard deadline that I've been given. Can you please make as much time for me as you can? And they couldn't have been any more accommodating. But it did mean that I'd do one day with Glenn and we'd do a couple of albums and then I might have to go over to Chris's flat.
00:16:24
Speaker
And it would mean that we could, I could say, well, Glenn said this and Chris said this. So there was, they were responding to each other. I read it again the other week before this interview. I thought I should read the book again. And I think it does seem at sometimes like that they are answering each other. And I think that was because it was done in such a quick amount of time that I could almost say, well, three days ago, Glenn said this, what do you think?
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually pretty interesting to think about the timeline for the actual interviews because it seems immediate. Did you expect that? Did you expect, like you'd have to be dredging, like when you talk to each of them, did you expect them to think like, hmm, you know, what went on? Or were they very eager to discuss it?
00:17:22
Speaker
They were incredibly honest. No one refused any questions. They were very respectful and very friendly and accommodating. I mean, it came across quite quickly. I felt, and I think maybe this is slightly in retrospect, I felt by doing the book they would
00:17:51
Speaker
they were ready to communicate better with each other and I think that probably came across in their interviews.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, they speak, especially Chris, very glowingly about each other, which is very, I guess it doesn't happen a lot with the way that we know them and the way they interact and the way they write. They were very, can I use this word, effusive? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, each one would say,
00:18:28
Speaker
Well, no one uses a lyric like this, it's genius, or Chris would say, Glenn's incredible, no one else could write a guitar solo like that. And yeah, there was, yeah, huge respect for each other and love. And yeah, an effusive is a very good word.
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, because I was a little curious because Chris just really opened up his jugular to discuss a lot of his hang-ups, his non-communication, especially during, correct me if I'm wrong, play when they were out in Los Angeles with Tony Burke. That just seemed like a really bad time
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny, I've read, I was reading that again the other week and I'd forgotten about how dark that era was. And Chris was, because Chris had just become a dad and they were, he was out with, just listening to a short wave radio, listening to the Iraq war, which was just starting and feeling really miserable and away from home. And not here wanting to be anywhere else, but the studio with Glenn, he's always loved being in the studio
00:19:48
Speaker
he's so upbeat and the other very, and I think probably couldn't understand why Chris didn't want to have that sort of same level of enthusiasm at the time. Yeah, it seemed that his alcoholic problems were really driving him down. Yeah. And he just didn't want to be there.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's so nice to see how happy he is now. He's eternally happy, Chris, I think. Yeah, I mean, his book, again, was also very candid. I love this book. I really like that book. Yeah. It was one of those things where I'd heard that it had been written, and I'm pretty sure there was no ghost writer or anything. And I thought, well, this could be really
00:20:45
Speaker
very good because you sometimes see books that have been written without a writer and I read it in two days and thought it was wonderful. I fell off my chair laughing at a couple of the couple of anecdotes on there as well and he comes across, you can almost hear him saying it with a little wry smile on his face when you read the page. It's a brilliant book.
00:21:07
Speaker
I actually got that from yours because there was such long descriptive passages about Chris discussing this or what he was doing at the time when he wrote his particular song. So I really liked that persona. And that was back in 2004. So they were like just on the cusp of appreciating everything that had gone on before.
Challenges and Triumphs in Squeeze's Career
00:21:36
Speaker
So again, you jumped in there had a really short timeframe Which must have thrilled you Well, actually it was great. Well, I like working like that I do look if someone says you've got a year to do it then it means that you end up people you can end up leaving it till like the last month and you wouldn't I wouldn't have got the same level of cooperation probably because
00:22:05
Speaker
They're both busy guys, but they knew. And they could have both been prima donnas and just said, no, you do it in our timeframe. They were nothing other than a delight to deal with. And Suzanne Hunt, I can't thank enough for the way she managed to sort Glenn's diary out when it was happening. Cause Glenn was really busy at that time. I think Chris was less busy.
00:22:34
Speaker
And the other thing I wanted to ask you was how was the book conceived, if you know what I mean, because yes, everybody would like to hear everything about Squeeze, but who came up with the nucleus of this project? You mean in terms of how it was sort of part written and part conversation?
00:23:02
Speaker
A little bit, yeah, and then approached, I guess, obviously beforehand, Chris and Glenn had to approve it. Yes. So the publisher had approached Glenn and Chris before. I think Chris had gone to them first of all with a prototype autobiography and they turned it down and they said, but we have got this series of books where we go through each song and that's a
00:23:32
Speaker
would you be interested in that? And then Glenn was brought in. And this was all unbeknown to me before it happened to me. So the idea of it being a song by song came through the publishers. But in terms, I liked the idea of having a bit of kind of commentary around the edges at the beginning and the start of each chapter.
00:23:58
Speaker
to have some context, and then the songs would stand on their own in the middle of that. It definitely helped because it was pretty much the first time I learned a lot about backstories in that time period, any particular record or album. And also, let me ask you, did you feel it was good that you didn't have
00:24:27
Speaker
a big history like you weren't hanging on to favorite squeeze songs and did you feel like it was a more fresh approach listening to Chris and Glenn give the feedback? I think it might have been actually I think because if if you're a big fan you can go in with not wanting to upset well then again I did I did do the book with Hugh Cornwall that was I think I was quite honest in that I think
00:24:57
Speaker
I do approach, I do have the journalistic approach, which is, you know, you've got to give it your best shot and don't let anyone down. So I don't think I would have pulled any punches, but perhaps coming in with not knowing all the songs back to front, I just don't know. I don't know whether that made a difference or not, actually. I'm sort of umming it up, umming and ahring as we speak.
00:25:24
Speaker
Right. I mean, yeah, you framed a lot of it with personal anecdotes. Oh, I like this part. Or how do you feel about what you wrote to any one of, you know, one or the other? Was there a personal song that kind of jumped out when Chris and Glenn said something about it? I mean, the song, it's such a cliche to say this.
00:25:54
Speaker
and a lot of people say it was some fantastic place is the one that I remember just I think the first time I heard that I cried I think it's such an incredible song that you can sort of think about a particular person in your life who may have passed away it's
00:26:20
Speaker
I mean, I think about my dad when I hear that song and it's about Glenn's first girlfriend. I think that's the magic of that song is you can apply it to anyone you like. So that would be the classic song that jumps out.
00:26:37
Speaker
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00:27:07
Speaker
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00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I know that a lot of Squeeze people know the backstory about Maxine and that she had contracted leukemia and had passed away around that time period, I think it was just before. And it seemed like it weighed heavily on Chris, more so than anyone.
00:27:39
Speaker
I think maybe Chris expressed that more but it was Glen's first love. I think Glen was pretty crushed by it but I think Chris maybe expressed that perhaps more in the interview. I always liked the fact, I thought it was such a beautiful thing to do when Chris gave him the lyric that Glen took guitars
00:28:09
Speaker
a solo that he'd never used, that he'd written when he was going out with Maxine and put that in the song and I thought that that's, that's, first of all it's such a nice tribute and secondly that's a real Glenn thing to do, to respond musically and find a musical quirk to show his feeling.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's a beautiful song. A lot of people have said that. And I interviewed Glenn back that time. And he, on the phone, seemed melancholy. He had also, I believe his wife, or they had divorced, I think it was his second wife, and the two kids and her were in Australia. Yes. And he expressed
00:28:59
Speaker
Let's see, not regret, but sadness, you know, sadness that, and it's great now because the kids have grown up, they're on tour with them now. Let me ask you too, when you went through all the songs chronological,
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah, that was completely chronological. We tended to do two albums in a day. That's how we did it. Wow. Then in fact the last one I did...
00:29:33
Speaker
with Glenn was because we were really running out of time and he had a interview for BBC London and was going to do a solo gig that night and I went to his house and then he drove across London to get to the interview and I interviewed him while he was driving and we got lost because we weren't paying attention and we were late for the interview.
00:29:56
Speaker
And yeah, they weren't happy. I remember that. So it was partly my fault. We were really, I was really up against it because he was about, I think he was about to go to America, I think like the next day. So it was like, if we don't do this now, it's not going to get done unless sanctuary are going to fly me to America. And they were never going to do that.
00:30:13
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like that's the way Glenn operates. Everything is like, you know, get this gear and grab that hair and, you know, put this microphone in his face. I got three minutes. I think it's a very nice way to be. I mean, you'll never grow old. And Glenn will be playing gigs, you know, for the rest of his life. I think it's such a healthy attitude and it's a way to stay young.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah, he gets that Paul McCartney thing going where he's not gonna retire. It's just in his blood. Look what he did. He just came back from America and went right on the stage in the UK. So let's talk about some of your more memorable talks with them. Anything that you recall that jumps out?
00:31:12
Speaker
I remember one of the jumps out immediately was at Chris's flat he'd been talking about when we was talking about electric trains about how it was about him as a boy who had he talks about a photograph of him holding an ice cream in one hand and holding a toy in the other and he said that's the boy he wanted everything he was an addict then and I remember going in to use his toilet and that photograph was in the toilet and I came back and said that's the toy
00:31:41
Speaker
that's the photograph you were talking about and I think he sort of hoped I would pick up on that so that that that definitely strikes a bell yeah it seemed like he was in a very reminiscing kind of mood yes back then yeah in 2004 the funny thing about him even if even at times when he was talking about things that that made him
00:32:10
Speaker
of upset. Chris has got such a funny way of, he's got such a riot wit that he will make you laugh because of something he says and he does it deliberately, it's not you're laughing inappropriately. Out of a tragic event he can still see another side to it and I mean that comes across in his writing.
00:32:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think it does, definitely, because the descriptions that come off from the very last gig they did in 82, that was the Jamaica Festival. Oh, yes, yeah. Just, it's out there, I mean, everybody admits it's socked. Yeah. And that's, and I don't know, it didn't seem,
00:32:58
Speaker
Didn't seem that hard to admit it. I mean, yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, they were very honest. Yeah. And about the second breakup as well, which was much closer in time. So it was probably been about five or six years before we did, after that happened, that we did the interviews. In some ways, it's easier to talk about something that's happened 20 years ago because it's less painful.
00:33:26
Speaker
I mean, the Domino, the breakup after Domino, I think was probably a bit harder, but they were very honest about that as well. Yeah, there was. And it's unfortunate that a lot of people have that attitude about Domino, that it just was really one in the tanker. Yeah. I'm glad you were able to get them that that honestly admitted that this just didn't work.
00:33:53
Speaker
Well, it was interesting, when we spoke about Domino, that was the only time when we were speaking about songs where either of them kind of clammed up a little bit because they had so little respect for some of the songs on them. They were just saying, we've got nothing to say about that, it's terrible. Okay, could you just read a little bit more? No, it's just awful, there's no like that. And it was the only time it ever happened. So that tells you probably a lot about that record.
00:34:22
Speaker
What did you think between the two of them they enjoyed the most about an album? Well, Glenn enjoys everything about it, doesn't he? Glenn enjoys the challenge of going away and making the music, going in the studio, loves being in the studio. Chris didn't particularly like being in the studio from what I remember.
00:34:45
Speaker
I think Chris liked just the writing of the words but was much less into the dynamics of going into a studio or making the record at all, I think, from what I remember. That might have changed now within the new gestation of Squeeze.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, it seemed that he had a lot of descriptive words about John Cale. Yeah, that's an amazing story about that first album. If that happened now, if you had a first album that you weren't happy with, that could sink you. It was still the days where you could get a five album record contract and it wouldn't happen now.
00:35:31
Speaker
and Call for Cats almost is their debut album in a way, because they had to go, John Cale bullied them into writing all these weird songs, which, you know, they're still a good album, but it's a lot of stuff that could go and write a song about a muscle man.
00:35:50
Speaker
I know it's like way off, way off the radar. I mean, I don't know how to put it any other way. And it seemed like they were in awe of John. Well, you would be. I mean, they were probably claimed was only 20, wasn't it? Probably when that happened.
00:36:09
Speaker
I think I'd have been probably, I'd probably been afraid of John Carroll as well. It's just so, the tales that come up, you know, in every interview. And of course, you know, you with the pleasure of getting more about John. I mean, the one about Amazing Grace is the classic. Oh my, can you, can you please describe that? Because it's pure gold. So they were on the,
00:36:37
Speaker
He turned up and had been drunk in the session and they couldn't rouse him so they put speakers next to his head and they couldn't wake him up. Jules wrote something very rude on his head which he didn't know about till the next day when he came in so to punish them
00:36:54
Speaker
He said, I'm locking you in the studio and you're all going to play a note perfect rendition of Amazing Grace or I'm not letting you out. And on top of that, you're all going to play each other's instruments. I don't know how they ever got out, but yeah, imagine being a 20 year old. I think I'd have phoned my mum. I said, mummy, there's this big man pulling me. Can you come and get me out?
00:37:24
Speaker
I know. And they took it in stride. I mean, they just figured. They were kind of cheeky. They were probably above their years in age in some ways, even though they hadn't been out of London much. They were streetwise. Streetwise is what I'm looking for, Amy.
00:37:45
Speaker
I don't know too much about John Cale. As far as his reputation, I get it from Squeeze. And was there anything that Chris and Glenn said, I don't know, like off the record? No, they said everything they wanted to say was in there. Now nothing was said other than that. So what I do remember is that they
00:38:10
Speaker
I mean, Glenn was saying, he was kind of glad that they'd gone through that experience and it made them learn another way of playing. So they made a positive out of that. Yeah. And then there, I mean, there's some good stuff on there. Yeah, of course. Take me on yours. Of course, John Cowell wasn't there for that. Yeah. I was just gonna say, John wasn't there for that one. Did Glenn, I was trying to remember, did Glenn take hold of that?
00:38:36
Speaker
Yeah, Glenn, and what was his name? Oh, what's the guy? John Wood, yeah. They did take me on yours and what was the other one they did? Bang, bang. Bang, bang, yeah. Oh, yeah. That seems to fit those two together rather than these sort of sorted stories that John made Chris write. You did a good job though with the lyrics, I think. Because if you didn't know, if you didn't know
00:39:06
Speaker
that subject matter. It's interesting because he did describe that with you in your podcast. Yeah, I remember he came up with a line, he said something like, the only experience I'd had of dressing up in rubber was wearing marigolds and a sink doing the washing up, which is a brilliant, it's a typical Christopher line.
00:39:28
Speaker
But you know, what's what's interesting and reading Chris's book and then looking at what they discussed with you is that they both of them and the group as a whole, when they were very young, had a really rough, you know, young hood, so to speak. Yes, but yeah, I think they, from what I remember, it was it was one of those things where they look back and said, actually, yeah, it was rougher than
00:39:57
Speaker
probably we thought at the time, particularly Glenn. Yeah, because they talk about hanging out in gangs and Deppert was in a fun city. Yeah, and Glenn was living with Pete Perret from The Only Ones and all that stuff. That's quite a dark period.
00:40:14
Speaker
what's that one, derelict apartments or places, I guess until Maxine came into picture. In that respect with something in the background, how did you go about assembling all of that? I only decided that at the end. Once I had all the interviews together and I had all the transcripts, my late father, bless him, had done, it was the days before you could get
00:40:44
Speaker
online you get transcriptions from playing the audio into a computer so he actually typed them all up which is really nice because I wouldn't have had time to have got it done otherwise and I went so I printed them all off worked out and found bits that I thought worked better outside than that that worked better when we weren't talking about songs and it just sort of came I thought well that's the way to do it do an introduction
00:41:14
Speaker
to each chapter and an ending, summing up. So that came, I think that came together at the end once I'd finished the interviews. How did you go about, did you conduct additional interviews? No, no, that was it. It was just done. Yeah, there's no more interviews after that. We didn't go back and do any touching up.
00:41:35
Speaker
Okay, yeah, it's, it's interesting, because it's very descriptive. And it really helps to explain a lot of their mindset, the band's mindset, Chris, especially, where he goes into his darker periods. And you're wondering, you know, you're really
00:41:59
Speaker
feeling helpless, you know, when he talks about when he's where he's been and oh my gosh, you know, I went down the wrong way in a freeway and I can't remember this. That's like scary stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's sort of that. Yeah. He didn't know how he got home as well. I remember that anecdote.
00:42:21
Speaker
Because he is in so much of a better place now, I kind of forget how much darkness there was in the book, actually. There was quite a lot of darkness from Chris in there. I've kind of forgotten that.
00:42:37
Speaker
Yeah, and it's just, I wouldn't even say, you know, there's a demarcation line where that happens. You can just feel it as you're progressing along the songs of any particular time period. My favorite album is Frank.
00:42:59
Speaker
oh i love frank yeah yeah very this is like where things are at the opposite end of the spectrum where it's a great album i'm glad they gave more to it in the streaming area now because you can hear like the like the b-sides and the outtakes and they fit great yeah but they were so and you know you can describe this they were so mistreated
00:43:28
Speaker
by their record label. Yes, I think there came a point eventually where Glenn just decided that that didn't interest him anymore and I think that that kind of freed him up completely once he discovered that actually well we don't need to be chasing chart success or what have you and we can become more independent and I think that yeah that sort of changed his
Discussion on Specific Albums and Projects
00:43:56
Speaker
I should be all right. I mean, the production of Frank is, I think it's a lost classic. It's so hard to get a hold of as a physical copy. I think it was the one that I bought last because I could find neither hand nor hand of it anywhere. And it's an absolute classic. Every song on there is brilliant. But yeah, they were let down as they were probably on some fantastic place as well, which is my favorite album.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's when there was so much richness to that, to those songs, so much maturity. Yeah. In the in the cadence of Chris's words in the production. Yeah, you wonder what happened. I suppose they just didn't. It's happens to bands, I suppose they don't fit anymore. They're off that kind of production line.
00:44:52
Speaker
and you go through a phase of not being cool anymore. Now they're massive again, but I think it does happen unless you're the Rolling Stones. You can produce your best work and not have it heard by anyone.
00:45:10
Speaker
And it's, it's a good thing that they kind of, you know, went through this breakup around the time you were talking to them. Um, and cause the book kind of ends on a downer. Yeah, you're right. Does it, does it cause it says, are they ever going to play together again? Uh, they've done produce all this great work. Um, we should be grateful for that. And, uh, again, that's it over and out.
00:45:39
Speaker
Right. And I felt like the book was says, okay, well done. When you did the book and it went out, what was the reception? Well, it didn't get a huge amount of publicity. It was reviewed reasonably well. But I remember going doing some events with fans and
00:46:08
Speaker
Fans were really, really nice and that was the important thing. The fact that fans were so pleasant about it and talking through the things they liked about it, that gives you a lot of pleasure when you hear that. And what about Chris and Glenn?
00:46:27
Speaker
Well, they were, I remember sending them, as I say, it was a really tight deadline. I sent them the, I think it was, was it 15 chapters? I sent them individually. I couldn't work out. It's a bit of a luddite then. And I couldn't work out how to send 15 attachments. So I had to send them 15 separate emails with each chapter on. And Chris phoned me the next day and said, I read it through the night and I loved it.
00:46:55
Speaker
You know that what can you imagine how that made me feel it was wonderful to have someone of his stature Say I read I stayed up all night and I read it until the six o'clock in the morning I loved it and then I heard from Glenn I think within about a week and He and he he was he was very happy. No no one asked for anything to be taken out, which is quite unusual and
00:47:21
Speaker
That's a testament to the work that you did and the responses that you got at the time. Oh, that's nice. There were a couple of things I think I said, do you not think we should take this out? I was like, no, let's go with it. And I thought, OK.
00:47:44
Speaker
That's great, they were so open. And I suppose because I think it was in such a short timeframe and I think they trusted me and so they didn't feel I was ever trying to take advantage. Yeah, I mean this, well here's my question, is that Keith Wilkinson, they seem to be very diplomatic about his work, but do you have any personal insight
00:48:13
Speaker
I remember Chris being a bit upset that he wanted all of his lyrics to be on the record and I could kind of get that. Whereas on a personal level I think those songs of Keith's are great and he's actually got a really nice voice. The thing I remember is Chris quite openly saying I didn't see the point of having any of his lyrics in there. We had me and Glenn. I don't remember anything more than that really.
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's a it's a little bit of a like an enigma. You know, because I think the perception is that squeezes Chris and Glenn. Yeah, for a long time. But they came back and did cradle to the grave. Oh, yes.
00:49:04
Speaker
And that's a bit of anomaly for us in the States because I understand that they were approached because that's a television show in the UK. I know that The Cradle to the Grave was the show that was based on Danny Baker, who was a school friend of Chris Difford and a very well-known broadcast writer, DJ, and that he had his
00:49:32
Speaker
autobiography had been turned into this show, which was a very funny show, and I would be guessing too much, I think. I know that some of the songs were, I think, were based around the storyline, but I would be a bit out of my comfort zone to guess, I think.
00:49:50
Speaker
Right, because I like it, but I didn't know if it's so British that we over here in the States kind of miss it a little bit. Interesting. I mean, does the phrase cradle to the grave exist in America? Because it's quite, it's a well used one here. Yes, yes, it is. I mean, I think it also has the the inference here about like the NHS looking after the National Health Service looking after you from the
00:50:19
Speaker
cradle to the grave, which is why Glynn did that fantastic embarrassment of our Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron. Do you know about this, about what he did? I do, but let's have you talk about it. Yeah, so David Cameron, who was
00:50:36
Speaker
prime minister, the first of many dud conservative prime ministers, was butchering the public services of the country and he was on a breakfast, a prime breakfast show on BBC on a Sunday morning and was sitting on the sofa. He'd just been interviewed and they played Cradle to the Grave and Glenn changed a couple of the lyrics to refer to the government messing up the National Health Service, which was a
00:51:06
Speaker
It's a pretty brave thing to do on live television. And I heard that Mr. Cameron loved it. Right over his head. Exactly. And that's what we like about Glenn. You know, you kind of like sneak it in with a little sugar.
New Directions and Current Dynamics in Squeeze's Music
00:51:21
Speaker
I mean, one of the things I really like about the new, the Squeeze Mark 3 is I've always liked songs that have a bit of a sort of a political edge and that's
00:51:35
Speaker
that was never really in their repertoire before the last two albums and I think Glenn has become quite outspoken and political and I think that's a really nice strand to their work.
00:51:49
Speaker
And you would also maybe speak to the fact that during the time you were speaking to them and Glenn was doing solo stuff, he's actually writing lyrics. So how did that discussion start to formulate? About the division between their writing, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. I think from what I remember, it was that Glenn
00:52:17
Speaker
was writing lyrics himself as a teenager and then when he started receiving Chris's lyrics thought actually these are better than mine so I'll just write music to those and it was one of those things where they never kind of spoke about it
00:52:33
Speaker
it was just decided that Chris would write the lyrics and Glenn would write the music, but no one ever seemed to speak of it. It was just assumed that each other knew that telepathically. And of course now that Glenn went away during the period where Squeeze were no longer, wrote these, a couple of really good solo albums and thought, well, actually I can contribute just as well, you know, myself. And I think that, yeah,
00:53:01
Speaker
kind of tell which are the songs that he's written because they have that immediate political side which Chris has much less of.
00:53:11
Speaker
Yeah, and the bite of their resurgence, especially with the band that they have now. And I understand that Simon and Steve and Steve and Melvin, I mean, there's a background, except for Owen, Owen Biddle, who's their new bassist.
00:53:33
Speaker
But everybody is really pouring it on. And that's good to hear. That's good to hear. Like you said, it's great to see Chris Bright, you know, and it hasn't been like that in a long time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's my point of view. I didn't know if you had been... What I do remember is that Steve and Simon were just, apart from being fantastic musicians,
00:54:03
Speaker
They're also both very nice and great characters. And I think Simon is the kind of person you want to have in a band because he's got this sort of comedic, easy-going person who's like a glue who would fit, who you don't want to have someone who's being negative. I don't think I've ever seen him. He's just this ball of energy who tells jokes and is funny all the time. And that probably helps a great deal, I would think.
00:54:30
Speaker
You know, the one thing I wanted to touch on was, you know, your podcast, the physical accords, where you basically got back in touch with Chris. Yes. So how did that, how did it all come about? I know, I know I understand you've told me that it was a lockdown project. Yeah. So how did you approach that? How did you approach? I don't know that many people
00:54:56
Speaker
in the music industry, really. And I thought, well, I'd love to do one with Chris. And I thought, I was a bit of a low-air for myself at this point. I think a lot of us were at the beginning of the pandemic, but I'd had, I'd left what was, I had a really great job at Reuters, which I'd left to take on a new challenge that didn't work out, really. And after a year, it had been very difficult. And then I got put on furlough. So I was feeling quite low.
00:55:25
Speaker
And I thought, well, I've got to do something to get through the days. So I set up the podcast, did one with a friend of mine who was in All About Eve and Sisters of Mercy. And I tried a couple of other people I knew, first person I won't mention, who was not in Squeeze, who said no, which I was really surprised at. And I went to Chris, and Chris said yes immediately. I think I sent him a text message and said, would you
00:55:53
Speaker
would you come on my podcast?" And he wrote back and said, yes, I'd love to. And that gave me such a lift at the beginning of lockdown, I can't tell you. And it was just so kind of him to do it. And it was like being back in the room after a week before, it was really easy going. And in fact, I've done a couple of other interviews with him since then, or one I set up with Wilco Johnson.
00:56:20
Speaker
on another podcast but Chris was just very generous with his time and yeah as I say so I mean if he listens to this I just tell him how much that meant to me at the time.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yes, I think you will. We'll make sure of it. Because you've given us a service, you know, for nobody else has, to be able to condense it into this readable, enjoyable, I keep using the word descriptive, it's just immersive.
00:56:54
Speaker
And I wanted to find out have you managed to see them recently as a band in the last year or two? I haven't seen them since the pandemic started. Last time I saw them was
00:57:13
Speaker
I think Christmas 2019, I should really ought to go this time round. I've just stopped going to gigs. That's basically it. I mean, I'm also, I mean, I'm in a band. So for me to get sort of a night pass away from home, it's like, well, is it going to be going to a gig or is it going to be rehearsing? So I'm indulging myself that way, but I really ought to go and see them.
00:57:41
Speaker
Well, you said something about being in a band. Yeah, it's my midlife crisis. Can you talk about that? Yeah, it's my midlife crisis that is some guys I was at university with 30 years ago.
00:57:56
Speaker
I'd met up with them and they'd said, oh, we've got a band together, but we haven't got a singer. It's going to be great. And I had had a few drinks. I've never sung before in my life and said, oh, do it. And so the next day got a call saying, right, rehearsals next week. And I thought, well, I've said I'm going to do it.
00:58:14
Speaker
I don't I really hate it when people say they'll do something and don't so I went along and said if you don't like it fine if you do like it it'll be let's do it and I went along and it was such a buzz and we do we started off mainly doing covers we've got five or six songs of our own that we've recorded but it's it's you know it's dad rock isn't it I mean it's just 50 year old men pretending they're
00:58:43
Speaker
They're not 50 anymore. I just wish we'd done it 30 years ago, really. I've never done anything like that before. But you're doing it now. I mean, and that's a good thing, you know? Yeah, it's fun. It's a great laugh. You know, better to get in now than when you're like 80. It's great. I love it. So I just want to say there's not enough different ways I can say thank you to the work that you put in, especially
00:59:11
Speaker
in the timeframe you had, which is new to me, because the way that you construct the book, the way that you get the answers and the information from Chris and Glenn just pours out so natural, just natural as far as they're answered. So I just have to say two words. Thank you.
00:59:38
Speaker
Oh, that's very kind of you to say. What I would say is that they were definitely ready to have that kind of conversation at the time. It was clear that they were ready to talk about that stuff. So if I helped in any way, that's nice.