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Conversation: Tom Skierka and the odyssey of Squeeze bassists image

Conversation: Tom Skierka and the odyssey of Squeeze bassists

S1 E4 · Cool For Cats: A Squeeze Podcast
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298 Plays3 years ago

What about that band member who holds a group together with their solid rumblings? Tom and I discuss in 'a round and a bout' way the history of players who have filled the bass role in Squeeze. From Harri Kakoulli to Owen Biddle, we offer up a lively exploration on where each one has fit in, review their unique styles and... theorize on possible 'dream' bassists that could have been! Feel free to offer your thoughts on social media: @coolforcatspod on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.

--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app
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Transcript

Introduction to Tom Skirky and Squeeze

00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Cool for Cats with me, Amy Hughes. We're inviting you in for a black coffee and a chat about our favorite band Squeeze. In this episode, I'm welcoming Tom Skirky, award-winning columnist, music journalist, and most importantly, a Squeeze fan since 1978. Hello, Tom. Hello, how are you? Thank you for having me.
00:00:33
Speaker
honored 1978. We're not dating ourselves, I promise. Yeah, well, nobody else is dating me, so it might as well be myself. That was a good year. It was.

Squeeze's Early Music and Members

00:00:47
Speaker
It was. It was a year that I was just turning 15. And so all those fun teenage memories start there.
00:01:02
Speaker
all the angst and bad poetry. But most of it will include Squeeze as we're about to find out. So we have been chatting back and forth before we started this podcast, you know, because we both love him and we could go on about Squeeze in any
00:01:18
Speaker
Many myriad directions and many avenues But we thought that a sort of a neat avenue to pursue and hopefully we will get there if we don't too far off is The many bass players that squeeze has had and and you have decided to use the yardstick of lentil Brooks air to measure that against Yes, yes
00:01:44
Speaker
And so we'll kind of go from there. We'll kind of explain that to everybody. So the most important thing, of course, is how you first found out about Squeeze and anything else that's relevant to your first experiences with the band. So go.
00:02:05
Speaker
Um, it was in May of 78. Um, I was 14, just getting to 15, getting ready to, um, going to ninth grade and, um,
00:02:18
Speaker
We were the first group of people in our area here in Spokane, Washington to have cable TV. It was the thing. Everybody else had four or five channels and we were gonna have 40 channels. And when we first got it, I found this fun little music show called Video Concert Hall. And Video Concert Hall was just a kind of a
00:02:47
Speaker
Automated they played videos and then an automated voice would tell you who the band was and then they would play two more songs and I remember I started watching it and The Dickies and the A's were a band that two bands that came on and I'd never seen anything like that or heard the likes of them And the Dickies played a very ramped up version of Knights and Whites satin and the A's played who wants to rule the world
00:03:18
Speaker
And I was immediately transfixed in this new style of

Challenges in Radio and Style Evolution

00:03:21
Speaker
music. It was not what we were getting in Spokane, Washington. All we were ever getting was yacht rock or heavy metal rock or soft metal or soft metal, soft rock. And so I had never heard of this progressive music before. And then the next two bands were like Pearl Harbor and the Explosions.
00:03:47
Speaker
and I want to say Styx was a different type of a Styx song and I was just transfixed and then all of a sudden this guy said that was Pearl Harbor and the Explosions coming up Gary Newman and Squeeze and Gary Newman came out and he played down and the video was down in the park
00:04:08
Speaker
And I remember laughing because if my brother had ever been a rock star, he kind of envisioned himself as the next Mick Jagger with the weird dance moves and David Bowie. I remember laughing because of the way Gary Newman performed.
00:04:24
Speaker
and and portrayed himself was like that's my brother and After that one squeeze came on and I just remember hearing that opening bass riff and guitar riff of you know dum dum dum dum dum dum and I was like, oh my god, what what is that and I there was this guy who kind of looked like he had my hair and you know the boy next door type thing and he was playing a great guitar and he was singing and I
00:04:52
Speaker
I was just transfixed on that song, you know, in the long note of, you know, she made arrangements, you know, and held it out. And I was just, oh my God, who is this? And then that guitar solo hit. And that was it. I would not like any other band as much as I would like Squeeze. They became my band. I became very possessive.
00:05:19
Speaker
They were my band. And I just watched that guitar solo, tried to figure out how to mimic it. I could play a guitar now, but it takes me 20 minutes to get just through Louie Louie. And I mean, they were my band. And I remember the next day I went to school and I talked to a couple of people. Do you guys have cable yet? Do you have cable yet? There's a band called Squeeze and only one person.
00:05:44
Speaker
knew what I was talking about. And he was also very influenced. In fact, he even starts a band and he says he plays that song. And his name was Paul Anderson. And we both were like the only two people who got it. And I remember
00:05:59
Speaker
the police came on afterward with uh... uh... uh... bring on the night and but i i i started memorizing when that show was going to be on because it may they never mixed it up and making sure that i would want to take like five listens before i could start singing the words wrong uh... and uh... you know trying to you know copy you know air guitar uh... glens brilliant uh...
00:06:28
Speaker
Solo in that song and the next year for somehow or another The next video I was exposed to was cool for cats. So was kind of went backwards but from you know, that was the first band that I ever like started going to record stores and asking have you heard of this band called squeeze and
00:06:49
Speaker
And it took me forever to get their albums. But when I finally got that first one, which was East Side Story, and then I got R.G. Barge, but I got that on an eight track. And then I bought it in cassette and I think I have it in every format still. But that was my introduction. And there's a lot of pride in introducing other people to that band and seeing if they ever get it.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, because one of the other things that we had talked about too was this time period. We look back on fondly and we understand now with hindsight how important all these tracks were and how much they influenced. But if we look at it contextually, were they a hard band to find on the radio? Because I would guess that if we're in that time period pre-MTV when there was so much exposure to them on video and when East Side Story eventually broke through,
00:07:43
Speaker
that attempting to find bands that were of that genre were a little difficult. Was it more of a record store crawl or was it an AM radio-ish type of listen? I would call the radio stations and I started the very, I think my first grassroots moment. I didn't even know that's what it was called, but I'd call the radio stations every day. Can you play the song? Can you play the song? But I didn't know the word, I didn't know the name of the song.
00:08:14
Speaker
because they didn't tell you what the song was, they just told you who the band was so you didn't get that little logo on the right hand corner or the left hand corner of the song or the band. So I finally went to a place called Eucalyptus Records and that's where I was finally able to do this crazy thing called Order It and they special order it for me but it came in like a
00:08:38
Speaker
Like I said, the eight track, which was awful thing to listen to. Um, and then I got it on cassette. Um, but yeah, I mean, you never heard it on the radio ever. Um, you, you didn't hear, I never heard a squeeze song on the radio until tempted came out. And even then I wasn't sure if that was them because I didn't have Glenn's voice in it. Right. Cause a lot of these songs were part of that, what we now call new wave and
00:09:07
Speaker
they were sort of couched in that environment and some bands made it and some bands didn't make it and some bands were just too weird and they certainly weren't punk where they were gonna be hidden in the back section of the record store and not talked about because they just couldn't be but they certainly had an esoteric off-center quality to them which didn't actually make them
00:09:37
Speaker
accessible in a mainstream sort of way? Right. Well, I mean, growing up, I mean, I didn't have a band that you could call them out. You know, like, you know, in the sixties, people grew up listening to Beatles. They got exposed to the Beatles and they could take off from there.
00:09:59
Speaker
Or there was the Rolling Stones, or David Bowie, or Tom Petty. But for me, this was an introduction. This was a band like those where I was introduced and I was immediately heavily influenced. Chris's lyrics. I can credit Chris for turning me into the writer that I ended up becoming.
00:10:23
Speaker
Because just his use of turn and the turn of phrases and the way he visualized things in short words Just you know inspired me so much and you know there was there was a great pride like I'd go skiing with some of my friends and You know, I'm the driver. So I'm the DJ
00:10:43
Speaker
And I would make them listen to that album. And pretty soon I had a couple of my friends going, don't play that one. Play pulling muscles. Play pulling muscles. And the song that my cousin and I really just adored off that album was there at the top, which I secretly think Billy Joel tried to steal from them for his song, Modern Woman. But yeah, I mean, we didn't hear him on the rail. Even Temptive didn't get very much airplay.
00:11:14
Speaker
Um, but you know, I bought the album and I was, you know, it sounds weird to say this. I was very pleased that, that I was the only song Pal Carrick sang on that album. Um, but there was such, I mean, East Side Story was such a brilliant album. Um, and you know, I remember that was like also the first album that
00:11:35
Speaker
I would put on and just sit there and listen to, not sing along, not try to play. I mean, I would do all that, but I would actually just sit there and try to figure out the words and songs and the meanings behind it all. It was just such an eclectic grouping of music. And for me, that was quite powerful. Did it sort of perplex you that you were immediately attracted to this

Live Concert Experiences and Fandom

00:12:03
Speaker
to this kind of style of music, had you always, I mean, obviously the big question here is, did you like the Beatles? And that seems to be a big thing of people who make that easy transition when they start to talk about squeezing. And I realize there's like a 10 year-ish span of time in there, but were you at all interested in sort of pop music as far as the mainstream pop music and in fact, the Beatles?
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, very much. We were a very musical family in a sense of listening. You know, my dad used to, when he'd get paid, he'd pick us all up and we'd go down to a store and we could all buy a 45, you know, one record 45. And I still remember my first 45 was by the main ingredient.
00:12:56
Speaker
And it was called Everybody Plays the Fool. But we all picked records and we'd all just sit there and listen to those 45s. And I was also very heavily influenced with Glenn Campbell. So I think that with the way Glenn could play a guitar and the way that he sang,
00:13:16
Speaker
It's very similar to the way Tilbrook does. Both are just guitar wizards. And the lyrics and the way that they sing is just perfect. So I think that was the cause where eventually all my friends got into Kiss and Van Halen or whatnot. And I just would kind of listen and just kind of enjoy it.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yeah, I took possession of this and I really did. I really took this band. This was the first band that I ever really took seriously of how much I really enjoyed their music. And that's kind of odd because, you know, no internet, no anything. So for me to find out when are they ever going to play in Spokane, which they never have, or when are, you know, when are their concerts going to be, you know, you had to do, you had to dig in and do research. You had to go to the library.
00:14:12
Speaker
and look for albums or look for articles through the Dewey Decimal System to see if, you know, and I never, I mean, I was lucky the first time I ever saw my concert was an announcement and it was in 89, maybe 90, that they were opening up for Fleetwood Mac. That was the first time I went, oh my God, I get to see them because you never heard of when the concerts were gonna be.
00:14:43
Speaker
They didn't come to your town, you never saw them and you never knew what it was like and you had to wait and hope that one day they would release a live album. Right, so we got 1990, now this opportunity has come through for you to see them, at least as far as an opening act is concerned. So what were your impressions when that all went down? Let's hear it, Tom.
00:15:06
Speaker
That was such a sad, sad day for me. We drove, me and my future wife and her friends, we all drove out to this place that's called George Washington. And there's a beautiful concert venue there called The Gorge. I tell people, you'll look it up and you'll see, I mean, it's a beautiful place. It's a beautiful place to see like Dave Matthews. He always plays Labor Day Weekends there.
00:15:35
Speaker
and it just sits right there on the Columbia River. And I was so excited to see this show that we drove there. It's a three hour drive in the middle of a desert. And it takes two hours just probably even to get to your seats. And that concert was everything to me. And then they were supposed to come on at seven and they were still setting up
00:16:05
Speaker
the stage and then some idiot kept getting on and doing a sound check but he was like thinking that this was his time to play guitar solos and the more and more it got on the more and more restless the crowd became and more irritated they became and so when Squeeze finally came on you know I leapt up from my seat and you know I was really you know really all set to go to hear it and they started playing and you couldn't hear them
00:16:32
Speaker
they didn't turn on the sound so they were halfway through and I could pick up that they were playing Annie get your gun and you couldn't hear him and I was so upset then finally they turned on the sound and they started playing but by this time the audience had lost interest they were you know trying to get to their seats you know and
00:16:54
Speaker
And I was really upset. But I was going to ride it out. I was going to ride it out. And then they played another nail. And I was so excited. And then they went into black coffee in bed. But people were having conversations all around me. Some guy I remember said, you looked up and went, hey, that guy's got a pretty good voice.
00:17:16
Speaker
I was like, shut up. I want to hear this band. This is what I came here to see. And you could just tell that they were, you know, the first thing Glenn said to the audience was, can you hear us now?
00:17:27
Speaker
and i was like you son of a you know and uh but what was cool was that they did play um they were playing new cuts from their new album play which was still i think a year and a half away from being released so i got to hear some really obscure songs from um play that they have i don't think that they've

Musical Evolution and Bassist Contributions

00:17:48
Speaker
ever really played i heard
00:17:50
Speaker
There is a voice in satisfied and the truth and walk a straight line. And then of course they played Sunday Street, which was the first time I, you know, consistently was checking in like, why isn't this song going to be a top 40 top 10 hit? And I did everything I could to find that album. And then then they left and I was, you know, they, they played tempted as the last song and people kind of gave him a very polite, you know, applause, but I was very upset.
00:18:19
Speaker
I even ran to the stage as best I could and tried to find them and wag them down. You were terrific. You played great. Don't be upset. We're sorry. Nothing ever came of fruition of that one. Then I think about three years later, I saw them in Seattle at the Moore Theater for the So Fantastic Tour.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I was right there and just entranced with what a great sound it was, what a great song was, and what showmanship there were. And it solidified me that Glenn Tilbert's just a genius and a legend. He was so cool. He walked around the stage, and I'll never forget this, he walked
00:19:08
Speaker
right by where i was standing and he put his leg up against the wall and while he was playing the song from footprints and i was like oh god this is just amazing and then i somehow secured after show passes for that show and when the show came out when the show was over they came out and walked right up to me and shook my hand i was like okay i'm done bucket list
00:19:30
Speaker
I'm gonna be doing this for the rest of my life. I'm gonna follow the spend wherever I go and I actually had a very nice conversation with him and I asked him about the Fleetwood Back Door and he gave me a very sad look and said it was something we just agreed to do.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was very difficult tour from what I remember reading for Fleetwood Mac because it wasn't really Fleetwood Mac and yeah, and Christine McPhee's father died in the middle of it. I mean, it was just the whole, the whole was just a big mess for them. And they just got caught up in it. And they really weren't promoting, like you said, you heard early play tunes. They were really out there for Around and About, which,
00:20:12
Speaker
in and of itself was still kind of not really all there. I mean, they could just go out there and do the greatest hits. But according to your response from the audience, it didn't really even matter at that time. No, in fact, they did get some reaction, by the way, from Sunday Street. That's when the crowd kind of woke up. And then when they broke into hourglass and then tempted, I mean, the crowd
00:20:39
Speaker
was there and responsive, but you know, the first, you know, it took them, you know, out of that 45 minute set, it took, you know, the crowd, the audience, at least a half an hour before they started paying attention. And it was, and I do, I still to this day blame the length of the setup and the delay, and the lay after delay. Because, well, you know, here's the other thing, the gorge at that time was also a winery.
00:21:07
Speaker
So, you know, people were getting up and going to Cave B and getting wine and having, you know, a couple of glasses of wine, excellent wine, by the way, and then coming back over and, you know, they were, you know, they were, you can't go to a squeeze show without, you know, tipping a glass or two. I can understand that because the venue that I went to was sort of in that same vein because, you know, if we skip decades here now or something, you know, we're talking to an audience of
00:21:36
Speaker
UNI and our age group, but yet they could still go up there as they have been doing and play songs from the first album. They're still playing Take Me I'm Yours and they're playing slap and tickle. And there's always been this consensus. It seems that a lot of bands who are getting up in this
00:21:56
Speaker
sort of time period of their lives don't want to play the those kind of songs because it's just basically a completely different mindset and It doesn't relate to them at all, but still in all it relates to us which is amazing It is it is I mean I could still remember I mean one of the I can still remember when I met my wife and
00:22:24
Speaker
You know, we met, and the song that we met on was Every Breath You Take, which, you know, kind of, you know, also is a fine example of how we lived our marriage. But I remember when I introduced her to Squeeze, she was like, yeah, I know who they are. And she actually knew more than just two songs. And I kind of went, okay, I think I have to keep this one. And, you know, here we are 30 plus years later. And, you know, she,
00:22:52
Speaker
She knows how much it means to me and we still go there and she will say to me, I hope they play. She has memory points of songs, just like I do, that are from Squeeze. When we hear Goodbye Grow, we can remember hiking down a mountain in Kalispell, Montana. Or when we went on hikes, I'd sing, you know, pulling muscles at the top of my voice to ward off the strange animals.
00:23:22
Speaker
gather more strange people but you know I mean we have memory points that are based on squeeze songs. And that's a wonderful thing to hear because even though the songs continue to move along a certain timeline and there's like so many formations and iterations of squeeze that can adapt to a lot of those songs, one of the more sort of fascinating points to consider is
00:23:51
Speaker
where we were in that timeframe and how we relate to those songs and what those lyrics
00:23:59
Speaker
and melodies mean to us now. I mean, I think back after doing some reading on the first Squeeze album and looking at the musicianship of that. So that kind of segues into us talking about the bass players. And I enjoy, actually, because, you know, every bass player it seems in rock and roll has to compare themselves to, you know, Paul McCartney or whatever.
00:24:25
Speaker
Yes, in fact I have a couple of friends who are bass players in their bands and I always give them a bad time because you know nobody knows remembers who the bass player is and you know when Covid hit it was actually kind of alarming that how many musicians you know from bands all over there was a lot of musicians who died that were bass players
00:24:48
Speaker
So I started telling some of my friends I need to wrap you up in some bubble wrap because I'm getting nervous about that because there's like six really legendary bands that had bass players pass and
00:25:02
Speaker
so you know i was you know very uh concerned about them but in a you know joking way and i still give a friend of mine a bad time about bass players because he was really into rush and i keep you know quoting asia songs to him and say isn't that a rush song isn't this a rush song now with the bass player you know i mean it wasn't a you know
00:25:23
Speaker
It's just a kind of funny thing. But yeah, I mean you look at that first bass player, Harry, I can never remember how to pronounce his last name. I think it's pronounced Cooley. I read in his book, because I never really cared much for his style of playing. And I think I read in his book, Chris was saying something or might have been in their lyric book that he only knew like one string.
00:25:48
Speaker
Well, I was looking also and reading that he just felt that Harry was just really good at posing. Yes. Yes, he was opposing. And when you look at a lot of that work, I mean, it was a very sort of chaotic, very fast rise there and sort of like the three released, the material that was released across the EP, the self-debut and then Cool for Cats.
00:26:18
Speaker
because we get it a little mixed up because John Bentley comes in really right after Cool for Cats, but yet he gets featured in the video. So that's really super confusing part, at least visually speaking. So do you have any sort of opinion about at least what you can think of in your head and listen to about Cool for Cats and the first album?
00:26:44
Speaker
Well, when I look at Cool for Cats, especially when you look at the bass line, and if I remember, Glenn actually played bass for almost little songs too. He kind of filled in with musicianship. But I mean, you know, you look at the song Cool for Cats, but what is that first thing wrong? That has such an amazing bass line. And then, you know, here it is. I bought that album and I never really listened to it. But now here it is years later.
00:27:15
Speaker
I can't start my heart from beating, bang, bang, bang, bang, is such a fast-paced, hurried, passionful song. That was a bass that I liken to like the Ramones. And I'm surprised the Ramones never did that song. But the bass playing, there's another off track
00:27:48
Speaker
It's a Chris song. And it seems like the Chris songs have the heavier bass songs, the bass plays on it. It's not go for gats. It's harder to find. I'm always thinking like because of the way that possibly Chris's voice is such in, I mean, in a sort of low, low register, you know, do you mean like strong in reason?
00:28:12
Speaker
No, no, no, it gets harder and harder. So it gets so hard. And it's he I mean, it's Chris almost in a scream song. And it's a great, great squeeze song that you will never see him ever do. But especially I think he says, I think I'd like to see yourselves go up. But there's the the bass is following him all the way through the song.
00:28:42
Speaker
his lyrics. You don't hear much of Glenn's guitar, it's much to hear that strong bass. But you can see the, when you go into R.G. Barge and John Bentley, you can see the difference of finding the guy who can actually play the bass.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. There's more like melodic runs.

Studio Challenges and Collaborations

00:29:02
Speaker
And of course, you know, his suggestion about bringing in the marimba portion right at the very, very beginning of his of his bass run to another nail in my heart. I mean, that's like legendary. That just that's it, you know, with sort of working in tandem with with Gilson.
00:29:22
Speaker
Right, right. The whole rhythm section. And then you hear the song there at the top where there is that bass solo. And then Glenn joins it with the guitar. I mean, that is just brilliant.
00:29:44
Speaker
It's a part of the song where you go, that is so cool. And when we talk about bass players, you can't not talk about Sting. And of course, you can't talk about Sting and Squeeze being on the same umbrella. But it actually reminded me of walking on the moon.
00:30:07
Speaker
the up-tempo of it you know you you argue barge was the first album that i remember listening to where i went okay i'm paying attention to the base too yeah like um even like i think i'm go-go you know which is slightly uh well maybe not slightly it's i mean it's it's it's kind of like got that dirgy kind of um gothicy various you're not exactly sure where it's where it's go-going but um
00:30:39
Speaker
And it was so cool to see them bring that song back out for this tour. And then having their new bass player, he hit it just like Bentley did with that strong bumble.
00:30:53
Speaker
Bumble, you know, it was, you just don't appreciate that song until you really hear the bass on that one. And then you go to East Side Story with that bass driven, someone else's heart. Yeah. And again, it works because it's
00:31:11
Speaker
It's again like these little accents, like the little accents of the little tambourine coming in. But I mean, Chris's voice is like this low rumble throughout. But then he's got these light lifting harmonies, but the bass and that little sort of sparkliness to it, it's very interesting. That's like a nice tension there.
00:31:34
Speaker
It is, and I guess because I never got a chance to see Bentley play. I never really gave him the credit that was due. You listen to Piccadilly in the very intro, how he's playing along with Carrick's keyboards.
00:31:53
Speaker
The man could definitely play and it's funny because Bentley was part of the reason why they broke up in the first place because he did not like the way black coffee and bed came out. He thought it was too slow.
00:32:11
Speaker
And he dared voice his opinion. And I remember this guitar world magazine where Glenn was saying, at that point in time, nobody could tell me what to do. And that was a hard one too, because the consensus, especially as they were getting on to the last bit in 82 with the fact that they barely had any input at all with Annie, get your gun.
00:32:34
Speaker
that all of it came from the producer, Alan Tarny, and they literally were flabbergasted. They were gobsmacked, as they say in Britain, that this guy would come in with a demo, that Glenn would come in with something like that, but then their producer would finish it, and they wouldn't really have anything about it. It would just be the vocals of Glenn and Chris.
00:32:58
Speaker
And I didn't know that until I read that recently because Tarny is actually, there was a Spencer Tarny band and they had that great song called No Time to Lose. And I always thought that was a California band. But you know, had they,
00:33:20
Speaker
Listened a little bit more because you look at that album That album should have done a hell of a lot better than it did And with squeeze you always have to blame the release of the wrong singles Because any get your gun should have been released on that album it should have been just included in the singles and I mean then there's that some elephant girl, which you know
00:33:44
Speaker
both speaking from the bass point was it was a driving bass and it should have been you know what it should have been which is always the squeeze motto those songs were really great and I think the you know black
00:34:00
Speaker
Suisse was a very misunderstood album. Glenn was trying to be like a soulful 70s singer on that one and it worked and it still works. I go back and I listen to that and you talk about a great opening bass riff when the hangover strikes.
00:34:16
Speaker
I mean that is just so beautiful. There's a lot of overused terms, but you have to use them when you talk about Squeeze, when you say very soulful, or there's a lot of heart and feeling, which maybe I'm not sure could have been missing a lot of times with the music back then. It was just literally going over people's heads
00:34:43
Speaker
that there was so much good musicianship that were people expecting something different. Even though when they went into do East Side Story, I think that there was that promise that this was going to be a great bunch of tunes. We've got a good tight band.
00:35:02
Speaker
and a lot of that credit went to Elvis Costello because he was the one that really put them into fighting shape. There's even stuff in Chris's biography where he was saying they got them on salad diets and
00:35:20
Speaker
Everybody behaved themselves is what it was, which I guess I can understand because look at what's happened with that album. Look at the material that came from that album. Mine is tempted, which you want to look at it as like, it's a one-off and everybody wants to hang the whole entire career of Squeeze on one song, which is kind of a drag. Yeah, because I've always said I would have loved to have
00:35:50
Speaker
If I could have been some influence on there, I would have loved to have been the person that would have released the songs because off East Side Story, it was Is That Love and Tempted, I think were the only ones that even got any airplay, but they didn't play. I mean, Piccadilly could have been a hit. Someone else's bell could have been a hit and messed around. But I think people would have said, is that the Stray Cats?
00:36:20
Speaker
I mean that album just in itself was a masterpiece. I would have loved to see what would have happened if McCartney and Dave Edmonds had gotten into the promise to do double albums.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, that would have been interesting because, you know, there's always like these sort of compartmentalized excuses. You know, Paul wouldn't do it because he went in and started to work on what would become, you know, tug of war. You know, Dave was there and he did the one song, the opening track, which you can it's just got Dave written all over it, which is Incandescence, which is actually kind of a version of Elvis Costello's. What song is that now?
00:37:02
Speaker
that was off his last album before that. And then, which was obviously then a version of Booker T and the MTs. So then you've got Nick Lowe, and that was just, you know, they could have all come together so well. But I always wondered if Nick had an issue with Dave. I mean, that was another Dave and Nick, although they were in the same band and contributed
00:37:30
Speaker
nearly as equally in a partnership, I would say musically as Glenn and Chris, that was a very fractious relationship, if you would agree with that.
00:37:44
Speaker
And then, you know, you wonder because Elvis, you know, later did Someone Else's Heart just recently and you hear the strong bass tones in that one. And, you know, I listened to that song and I played it for my wife and went, okay, here's this one and here's this version. And in fact, Glenn had a version of that, did that song on R.G. Bargi on that. You can find that on the Deluxe.
00:38:08
Speaker
And then there's three different songs, but Elvis had more fuller sound all the way through it, and he really emphasized the bass on that. Well, it's also interesting too, is it?
00:38:18
Speaker
pre East Side Story, maybe a lot of people don't know is that Glenn sang on Elvis's song from Trust from a Whisper to a Scream.

Bassist Eras and Band Dynamics

00:38:29
Speaker
And it's just an amazing salt and pepper, but at like 120 miles an hour, like you could not stop this song. It just went off into the ditch and they just kept on going.
00:38:50
Speaker
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00:39:20
Speaker
download the anchor app or go to anchor.fm to get started. And I challenge anybody who sings that song not to try to sound like it's hard because he has such a particular inflection that you know it's it's it it's all it's all him his cadence his tone and that's why he stands out actually so much
00:39:44
Speaker
on the background portions of Black Coffee in Bed. You just hear that at like the last, however many seconds, last 15 seconds, Paul Young's crooning in the back. He sounded amazing. And then Elvis just belts out, you know? And it's like, yep, that's Elvis. Yep, yep. So then we go from that and they break up off that Suites album.
00:40:14
Speaker
and they do their duet album and that's when we get Keith Wilkerson. Keith Wilkinson is sort of, he's an anomaly, but he's not. I did meet him during the time that I was writing and interviewing Squeeze and the guys in the band, which was around post-Babylon and on, and he's just such a sweetheart. He's a beautiful person.
00:40:45
Speaker
I had the opportunity of asking because when Squeeze regrouped and they had that awful Domino album, I remember asking Chris on a video AOL instant messaging thing why Keith didn't come back and he said he didn't know. It's still a mystery as to what happened.
00:41:10
Speaker
Well, I'll offer you this from what I read in that Keith was offered a song publishing deal. For children's books. I think he wanted to impress more of his songwriting skills within the band. I don't think it was
00:41:39
Speaker
going to work because I think he was essentially the Bill Wyman of Squeeze. That's a beautiful way to describe it. I think somebody did. I think even might have been him. But I absolutely agree with that. I love listening to him. There's a great, fantastic piece on Frank. It's called Frank's Bag. It's an instrumental
00:42:05
Speaker
That is a gem. Anybody who's listening to this podcast has got to go and listen to that because I did not really appreciate it until I actually played it on the way back from the gig that I went to in Jacksonville, Florida. And I had a smile on my face here. It's like 1.30 in the morning. I got to stay up in my car and I'm playing Frank's Bag.
00:42:35
Speaker
Well, and Keith really elevated as bad as it sounds. I mean, I love Bentley, but I think Keith gave them a little bit more stretch and a little bigger sound, if that makes sense, because, you know, the solo album, all of a sudden, they call it their coffee table album, but
00:43:00
Speaker
I mean, it was such a different dynamic and sound. It wasn't as raw. It was more polished. That's the word I'm looking for, polished. Because then you go from that one, you go to Cosi Fond. And the bass on a couple of them, especially one of my favorite songs is Hits of the Year. Just that whole bass-driven song with the strange horns.
00:43:30
Speaker
I mean I was like okay and then like I said when you buy a squeeze album, it's always who's here and who's not there now. And I remember, well Keith, who's this Keith guy? And Glenn demanded that Keith rejoin them and not Bentley.
00:43:52
Speaker
I just did that. I mean, he added a voice. He had a pretty decent voice. But yeah, I mean, I love the Keith Wilkerson's years and releases. I really do. And I've always said that, you know, it's a terribly amount of great music that's ignored, even to this day by Squeeze, because they don't play a lot of those songs anymore. Well, I found it really sweet that a song that like Big Bang
00:44:20
Speaker
made a reappearance on the most recent tour. As a cozy fan, to be honest, I think everybody tends to focus on it being a very 1985 release. It's since heavy. It's just so since heavy. You don't even remember that Jules came back and played on it. You feel like there's this over-orchestration,
00:44:48
Speaker
And you tend to forget that, yes, the bass player who did Cozy Fan also was the bass player for Frank, which offered up a way more clearer, stripped down, distinct sound to it. And that was what was so amazing about it. And then you went into play and then you went into Ridiculous.
00:45:13
Speaker
It's hard because those are almost forgettable. I mean, I would say Ridiculous, maybe more so than Play. Play to me was the ultimate squeeze album at that time. I can never get enough. I can still listen to Play. It is just such an amazing album to me and I think maybe it's because it was an album I saw in concert.
00:45:36
Speaker
But I mean, Chris's lyrics in that album, you know, I mean, there's a couple of duds on that album, but and I don't know why they didn't play Maidstone and put Maidstone on that album. But and then, you know, some fantastic place. I mean, to me, that was squeeze at its, you know,
00:45:58
Speaker
highly ignored, but that's stuff that they were doing. And I remember, you know, watching some fantastic tour and just being, you know, odd. And then, of course, you know, speaking of basses, Keith sang his one song, which was an okay song.
00:46:16
Speaker
You can see, okay, you know, Keith, just be quiet and sing back up and play bass. And it's hard when you try and penetrate that sort of impenetrable, if I can even get that word out, force of Philbrook and Difford
00:46:35
Speaker
and try and make yourself somewhat of an interesting personality and offer something different. And I think the distinction is that you have somebody like Jules Holland who just lived a completely different planetary life.
00:46:57
Speaker
Jules was not forced, but was sort of prodded by Miles Copeland, their manager, to be the person to step out front and make a show. Because they hadn't at that time, they were just there to ram on through their songs. So Jules came and did his personality thing and lifted the band. And that's why I think Keith Wilkinson did too musically, he was able to
00:47:23
Speaker
lift the band up out to a different place, which was quite helpful in many aspects. And maybe that's why he's sort of, for us, he's there as a presence
00:47:40
Speaker
and maybe not so much as a personality but like you say we've met him as a person and and know that he was just just more than just that guy you know yeah he was he and uh you know i mean
00:47:56
Speaker
He to me, you know Bentley was always you know, the first squeeze bass player But keep for me will always be the bass player that if I ever have to pick my favorite bands Although it's kind of hard to say, you know, I would pick Keith over Lucy but that's just cuz Lucy was just such a you know, the boy crush type thing that happens you look at you just kind of
00:48:22
Speaker
Before we get actually into Lucy, who I actually did see live, I saw her with Glenn as the fluffers, we have this sort of semi-curious, and that's why I always call on my subject matter experts or anybody who has a really sort of distinctive opinion about Hilaire Penda, who played on Domino. What's your thoughts on that?
00:48:51
Speaker
I mean you look at the song I mean he was so smooth but unfortunately he was his presence was dampened by you know the turmoil that was going through the band and probably the worst album Squeeze put out but that song Domino you hear you know the opening riff and you realize you know what could have been I mean he was so
00:49:20
Speaker
smooth and maybe almost, and I remember when he came into the band, I was like, what happened? Where's Keith? And then I heard that one, I was like, oh, okay, maybe Keith has something better to do because they got an amazing bass player. But unfortunately, because of that album, it's very seldom played in my area, very seldom played in my realm of squeeze songs because I just can't get through that album.
00:49:50
Speaker
You could sense the tension that was going on between Glenn and Chris. And we all know that they were trying to bring back in more of this sort of independent spirit.
00:50:04
Speaker
that went with the band and that's why Domino was done the way it was done. They wanted to make this break from being beholden to a major label and I think that probably helped them a lot with having somebody like Penda come into the band because if he fit, he fit musically and it didn't matter what anybody else say. I think they were, it's just my opinion, like they were just really fed up
00:50:33
Speaker
with a lot of what they were being told to do and what to release and how to do it. And I think that's kind of what, besides all the interpersonal tensions that were going on between Glenn and Chris, that's just kind of what happened.

Recent Contributions and Current Lineup

00:50:51
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that they were also, because they lost A&M.
00:50:55
Speaker
They were really frustrated with what they were going to do. I would have liked to have seen what would have happened if he had stuck around. But he's a mystery that you just never can recall.
00:51:16
Speaker
That's not memorable because of the album. We had this sort of like, you know, big, huge break before there's this sort of reformation reintroducing of material. And that kind of, I guess that kind of happens around in the mid 2000s when John Bentley is coming back into the fore.
00:51:41
Speaker
with a lot of what's going on, new material, re-recording, old material, which seems to work out really well for all of them. It seemed like that was a really good time after the sort of absence of a band atmosphere.
00:52:02
Speaker
And he worked on, Bentley worked on Cradle to the Grave, which Chris has said at that time was a pretty nice time for him. That Cradle to the Grave album, I mean, that was the, I saw them tour in Portland on that show. And I was just completely blown away by the show, the sound, and
00:52:33
Speaker
To me, that album is such an inspiring album and a fun album. The Cradle to the Grave is just that squeeze, that song. But then you have that amazing open song.
00:52:57
Speaker
You know the whole idea of Chris taking the old child's game of here's the church, here's the steeple, open the door and see all the people. I mean who does that? You know, Christopher does. And Lucy's playing.
00:53:13
Speaker
Even my wife when we saw the concert she was like, how can you not love Lucy? Well, the good thing is is that she was already part of Yeah, so it wasn't really like too hard Well, I don't know if this is the right choice of words, you know she wasn't like too hard of a transition because she'd been she'd been playing with Glenn for so long and
00:53:37
Speaker
And Steven Large, who is her husband, was also playing in the fluffers in Simon Hansen. So it was kind of like bringing a small version of a Glenn band and expanding it, you know, to be called Squeeze. And so that's how, that's my understanding is how Lucy came into the cradle to the grave sessions.
00:54:01
Speaker
And she was really, I mean, she was a very complimentary to that band. And didn't she leave because she was playing it? Yeah, that's what I was saying. She's with Steven, who plays keyboards, and yes, they have a daughter back at the time that that went. So that they were essentially mostly looking for someone else
00:54:26
Speaker
to slot in to that position. And that's when we move into Yolanda Charles, which was 2017. And that is also a tour that I was lucky enough to see. It's kind of an unusual thing, actually. Chris mentions it in his autobiography, but they played at Epcot at Disney World.
00:54:49
Speaker
in the summer. And so Yolanda was part of that iteration of Squeeze and she was just mind-blowing. When you go to a Squeeze concert, you focus mostly on Chris and Glenn. You sometimes avert your eyes to see what Simon is doing on the drums or what Melvin is doing on the slide guitar or whatever.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yolanda was really one of the first bass guitarists that I kind of went, oh, she's distracting me from looking at Glenn because her and Steven were just, you know, having a blast up there, but just seeing that ability, you know, she played a five string bass, which I hadn't seen since a Neil Finn concert. And I mean, talk about a tight sound. And, you know, I don't know if she recorded on
00:55:42
Speaker
On the knowledge yes Because there there is the innocence in Paris innocence and My mind went blank on that one, but I mean there is such a relic sound in that album That it's so complimentary. I wish she could have stuck around
00:56:09
Speaker
She was really a treasure to watch. I know, she had such a fluidity and a presence, to be honest, that I had almost regretted sitting on Chris's side of the stage because she was over on the other side. And I didn't really get a chance to really watch her. And I was just really, from where I was at that time, for that gig.
00:56:38
Speaker
so blown away by her playing and by her presence. And as I noted to you before the podcast, only last year she was appointed an MBE. I'm a member of the Order of the Jewish Empire for her work in services to music. So she is a VIP, a very important person.
00:57:03
Speaker
She is a game to beat. She has a few more medals she has to get before she gets up there, but a very important person. And I'm so glad she's still active. She's a teacher at a college in Manchester, England. So, I mean, this is a woman who just, you know, she was able to
00:57:22
Speaker
integrate herself so well into Squeeze. And it's interesting that I was able to find out. So, you know, Yolanda's in this for, you know, not quite a long time. And then there's this interesting tidbit that I found out at the beginning of 2020, when they were probably thinking, okay, when we're going to go on tour with Holland Oates, they actually employed Sean Hurley.
00:57:50
Speaker
Who was the bassist for vertical horizon? And this was a very very brief time like we'll see like three months
00:58:01
Speaker
So I don't know too much about the details on that. And if anybody's listening to this podcast, I'd like to know a little bit more. But what I gather is that he did play for them for those for that time. But he's really a session person out in LA and a tour guy. And his big one is playing with John Mayer. So
00:58:26
Speaker
Yeah. I did not know that, yes. And that was he the current best player. No, what happened was, again, he, I think really what happened was Mayer called him for his services. He's played with so many people besides Mary, played with Alicia Keys. He's played with Ringo and he's played with Robin Thicke. And my guess is, is that when everything started to shut down and they were going to do, and I think they did do a few gigs early 2020 with, with Hall & Oates,
00:58:55
Speaker
That kind of stopped everything. And then what happened was their current base player, his name is Owen Biddle. Yeah, he's a member of or was or he may still be a member of the Roots. And he was somebody that I was able to see at the gig this past September. And again, he just fits in amazingly.
00:59:24
Speaker
He does, doesn't he? I mean, I told you yesterday, he reminds me of Wolfman from that thing you do. Because I was like, well, can you play our songs? I think I can handle it, Junior. But you see, he brings with him a lot of enthusiasm on the stage, a lot of charisma.
00:59:52
Speaker
I was very fortunate to take my C-Squeeze in September and I mean I was just blown away with him. He seems like a perfect fit.
01:00:03
Speaker
I would say that that is right on point because he's much younger to begin with than the rest of the band. He has had so much entertainment exposure, like television exposure. He's a performer. And so to be with The Roots, I think is obviously one of his strongest suits.
01:00:27
Speaker
He just looks great up there. He gets to stand next to and play with Glenn. That whole dynamic is great. I mean, he's between Glenn and Steven on keyboards. And I mean, that's in of itself kind of intimidating. You know, every time I have seen Squeeze, I always post. I'm going to see Squeeze. I post videos on and I always post. I'm ready to sing back up.
01:00:57
Speaker
I'm ready to sing backup because you know everybody always wants to play you know I want to go up there and do a song with Glenn and sing a song with Glenn but I always think nobody wants to hear me sing so I will go up there and sing backup and so just you know when you talk about these guys who are
01:01:14
Speaker
On the stage and they get to see it you just cringe with such envy cuz i would love to one day be able to you know. If i could i would learn to play bass if i don't squeeze was gonna go through so you could only have predicted you know like forty years ago that.
01:01:31
Speaker
This could all happen and still can continue to happen. It's just it's mind blowing. It's stunning that we are sitting here like most people are with the Beatles. That's there's so much still to discover. I mean, fortunately, we can still be doing that. And we were playing that sort of nuts.
01:01:51
Speaker
fantasy football but fantasy basis because we had some amazing suggestions that could or could have had happen and make a lot of sense when we were talking about, okay, who could play bass in Squeeze and make it work or who has the right fit and have like name recognition. Years ago when Lucy left,
01:02:20
Speaker
I threw out a little thing that says, hey, Tony Lewis of the outfield is not working. Maybe you can grab him. And he, sadly, has passed. But my dream bass player would be Mike Mills from REM. Wow. Wow. That could make a lot of sense. And I know that Chris has had interaction with the band.
01:02:51
Speaker
But that is pretty amazing. The one suggestion that you brought up to me off podcast was Nick Seymour from Crowded House. I think that would be, he's almost like the Australian Owen Biddle. Wouldn't you kind of agree if there was like a comparison?
01:03:12
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. And he has such charisma and he is such a great player. I've never had a chance to see Crowded House. I've only seen Neil Finn solo. But yeah, Nick Seymour, and plus he can sing and I think he actually lives in America too, or in London. So that might even help out with location. But yeah, Nick Seymour would be a great one too. Mike Mills, you know,
01:03:38
Speaker
You can't have somebody like Sting or, you know, because, you know, I would take away from the band. You can't see Sting playing backup. You just can't. But yeah, Mike, Nick Seymour would be wonderful. And then, you know, maybe they would even sneak in a crowded house or two because, you know, I've been glad to see this happening. Those last few times I've seen Squeeze, I get irritated that they've done covers because they have such a great
01:04:06
Speaker
Don't sing Harbor Valley PTA, which I love, by the way, and ignore some fantastic plays. And the last two times I've seen them, they haven't done a single cover.
01:04:19
Speaker
So you can accept a cover if it's from somebody in the band. Well, I understand that there's a lot of love for some of those kinds of songs, especially when it comes from Glenn, because I had the opportunity to sit in at a radio station back in 89 in Boston that had him come on to play acoustic. But it was kind of a promotional thing for him and Chris, because they were doing an acoustic tour, kind of like semi-supporting the release of Frank.
01:04:49
Speaker
and he came in with his acoustic and he played The Monkees, I'm a Believer and these are the kind of tunes like he has said that he grew up with because they just heavily influenced how he was going to perform or this was a guitar part that he really really enjoyed because I've heard that he's also done, they've also done you know Beatles covers and
01:05:16
Speaker
and such like that and I'm actually happy like we were talking earlier in the podcast that they brought back something like Big Bang you know which you kind of really have to wrap your head around and understand that certainly in today's scene of Squeeze they can play that you know they could play that kind of song but it could seem out of place for
01:05:40
Speaker
a lot of other people, so I was always wondering how those choices are made. It's like Paul McCartney, where you have to decide, what am I going to play? What am I not going to play? Who's here? I got to sing for my supper. You paid this ticket admission to come see me play, and I should be playing these songs. So that's kind of, I think, the sort of strange dichotomy, the balancing act that a band like Squeeze has to submit themselves to.
01:06:09
Speaker
yes yes and it's i mean you know you get selfish because you know when you see squeeze nowadays you actually hope that they do two parts you know one from you know 78 to you know 80 and then one from 80 to 90 or you know 90 because there is so much great music that they have put out lately that it's it's sad that you don't get to see it and hear it more often
01:06:37
Speaker
And, you know, I mean, you know, it is what it is. But at the same point, you know, I I've been dying to hear, you know, Sunday Street, everything in the world with with the new bass players and with the new bands, seeing how they would cover it and how it would sound. I mean, I mean, let's face it, they they are probably one of the tightest bands that I've ever seen, if not the tightest.
01:07:00
Speaker
And I do also wanna give credit to this past tour, at least as far as they were doing the standalone shows, that they would put a lot of, I think Hourglass was like the second song. And I was like, whoa! This is a really ballsy move to put that up right up front to actually introduce that kind of sort of rhythm to the night, wouldn't you say?
01:07:27
Speaker
Yes, it's almost like saying, hey, we're going to start off with Tempted and then go right to Black Coffee Bed and Hourglass, and then we're going to do the rest. But they're such a strong band. And let's face it, everything that they have done, Tempted shouldn't have be their biggest song. It really shouldn't. Well, I think it just hit a chord at the time with everybody who's, again, of our age group and age generation. We're not so much reminiscing about, oh, being 16, 17, 18,
01:07:57
Speaker
Tempted we're looking at it like and and and Chris has has actually brought this up as as a really valid point that you're now lived this life and How we've always described how amazingly enough he puts all of this into two and three minutes now. We've lived that
01:08:15
Speaker
And that's why we appreciate it, you know, even more. And the fact like, as we were just, you know, our theme has been the bass players that these amazing people can come in and they can still call it squeeze and add their flavor to the mix, to the soup. And it still sounds like squeeze. Yes. Yes. And that's what, you know, I imagine when we go to the great beyond, that'll be the first song that I'll hear.
01:08:45
Speaker
I'm trying to think of what mine would be if it was a squeeze song, but I actually enjoy there was one song that they played that I had kind of sort of forgotten about, which was Please Be Upstanding. Yes. Yeah, but I don't think that works with what the song's really about.
01:09:04
Speaker
but uh you know uh i i've told my wife that you know when i go you know i want you to play or i won't ever go drinking again or something so but yeah i i totally i totally appreciate everything that you've been uh you've been offering me in this podcast because it's it's certainly not
01:09:28
Speaker
a viewpoint that gets talked about often when it comes to the band and their appreciation that we can delve so deep into certain aspects of lyrics and songs and bass players. Right. Paul Carrick said when he was interviewed, he said, well, the band goes through a lot of keyboard players and this is my turn to go back.
01:09:57
Speaker
Words of wisdom, as it were, Paul. Words of wisdom. So, Tom, I want to thank you for your words of wisdom for offering up, you know, all of your personal experiences and your insight. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. I say start your bass guitar or your backing vocal lessons as soon as you can. And the next time we see the band, that's where I expect you to be right up there on mic next to Melvin.
01:10:23
Speaker
I am planning on doing it whether they like it or not. That's completely legit. Thank you so much. This was really a lot of fun. Yeah, completely legit. Thank you so much, Tom. I appreciate it.