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Ep 43: Why Foreign-Trained Lawyers are Essential: Flavia Naves, Of Counsel, Hathaway & Kunz, LLP
84 Plays6 months ago
If you're a foreign-trained lawyer who wants to move to the U.S., how do you find a job? Why should companies look to foreign-trained lawyers in an increasingly globalized world? And how should you navigate moments of big career transitions?
Flavia Naves, former general counsel at Circle, relocated to the United States after studying law in her native country of Brazil, and went on to become an authority on law and regulation related to crypto, fintech, digital payments, and much more. In addition to her long lost of leading legal roles, she is also a board member, of counsel at Kunz and Hathaway, and commissioner of the State of Wyoming’s Stable Token Commission.
Listen as Flavia shares the challenges she faced as a foreign-trained lawyer, why she advocates for mentorship and specialized training, what it’s like facing unexpected career transitions, and how she came to realize that her biggest differences are her biggest strengths.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-43
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Moving to the United States after growing up and studying law in Brazil: 2:44
Entering the legal job market as a foreign-trained attorney: 3:51
Seeking mentorship from other foreign-trained lawyers: 8:18
Why companies should consider more foreign-trained attorneys: 11:23
Considering LLMs: 14:36
Navigating moments of career transition: 18:24
Deciding to leave your GC role at Circle: 20:36
Life after Circle: 25:38
Book recommendations: 31:15
What you wish you’d known as a young lawyer: 32:42
Connect with us:
Flavia Naves - https://www.linkedin.com/in/fnaves
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Visa Sponsorship Disparities
00:00:00
Speaker
But you know the interesting thing is, having been in-house my entire career, the companies that I've worked at, which are all tech companies, we had an absurd amount of engineers, and the vast majority of them were here under visa sponsorships. So there is this disproportionate treatment given to engineers or lawyers. ah somehow Somehow they can get visas and lawyers can.
Spotdraft Introduction
00:00:36
Speaker
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Challenges for Foreign-Trained Lawyers
00:01:25
Speaker
If you're a foreign trained lawyer who wants to move to the U.S., how do you find a job? Why should companies look to foreign trained lawyers in an increasingly globalized world? And how should you navigate moments of big career transitions? Today, we are joined by my friend Flavia Navas for this episode of The Abstract. She was most recently the general counsel of Circle and is an authority on all things law and regulation of crypto, fintech, and payments.
00:01:56
Speaker
She remains involved in the industry as a commissioner on Wyoming's stableco a stable token commission, I should say, and and as of counsel at the Wyoming-based law firm of Hathaway and CUNS. But today we are going to be chatting about issues that are a little bit closer to Flavia's heart than digital assets. Flavia, welcome to the abstract. Well, thank you, Tyler. It is a pleasure to be here and to be talking about something that is to your point, a lot closer to my heart because a lot of people know me about, you know, digital assets and financial yeah services regulation. Not that many know that I'm a foreign trained attorney. So let's talk a little bit about that. Absolutely. First question for you would be, you know, you studied law in Brazil.
00:02:50
Speaker
When did you decide that you wanted to move to the US and pursue a career here? Yes. My story actually dates back to 1991. Before 2000, yes, the olden days. um I lived in this small town in Pennsylvania called Hazleton. I was an exchange student. I live with a host family and that experience really just sparked my desire to live in the US and to advance cultural exchange. So you know I talked to my dad back in Brazil, and he's like, no, I want you to come back home. you know My family just wanted to me back home after a year in the US. I went back to Brazil. I went to law school. um As you may know, law school in Brazil, as in many other countries, it is after high school is at college level. So I did that for five years. I got my LLB, which is a bachelor's in law degree. And I kept on visiting my host family in Hazleton in the summers.
00:03:46
Speaker
and Then I eventually decided that I wanted to pursue an LLM. That was in 1999. As you were moving here, did you find it hard to break into the job market after getting that LLM? What are the different sort of hurdles that that folks face as they're trying to break into the US job market for lawyers? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it was absolutely very difficult. You know, us lawyers are a pretty pretentious crowd. you now We like to talk about tears and law school and moot court and cum laude and all those kind of pre-things that put a star next to your name. That makes us feel pretty important, right?
00:04:24
Speaker
so when you come from a law school that no one ever heard about right with a name that is easily mispronounced like mine and with a funny accent right employers have no idea what to do with you right and that's that's what i receive right um Even though I had practiced law a little bit in Brazil before coming here, prospective employers were looking at me as if I had just graduated from law school. right and They put me in the recent same bucket as someone that went to college and law school and had no experience.
00:04:55
Speaker
right so When you're before an employer, you know you think about this, you have two resumes. right One um for you know looks pretty standard, has a law school, a university that they recognize, a degree that makes sense to you, and has all the fancy things next to it. the other one has a university spell in a different language right a degree that you never heard about and those stars are just a little bit different than the ones that you know right they they shine differently so the natural inclination of human beings is to obviously go with what you know it makes you comfortable right so during that process foreign train attorneys are at an immense disadvantage.
Leveraging Unique Strengths and Mentorship
00:05:35
Speaker
Mm hmm. Just the recruitment piece. Let's say that I am a foreign trained attorney. I'm trying to move to New York City and get a job in the legal market. What are some very practical tips that you might have so that way I can get past that hurdle of resume review and and check? Yeah. So I think the biggest thing for us to remember foreign attorney attorneys is that you know our difference is our biggest strength, right? So the natural inclination is to come here and try to blend in. I want to be a corporate associate, just like somebody else is. I want to get the job in that big law firm, just like somebody else is getting that.
00:06:14
Speaker
You know because you know that's that's what we want to do right we want to be just like everyone else And we want to be part of the cool kids right and that's just how it is so we approach job hunting networking marketing the same way that JD student does and It's the biggest mistake that we make and I made that mistake right I made the exact same mistake. I came in here and I wanted everyone to see me the same way that they saw everyone else. and It wasn't until I realized that that difference that i made that I had is what made me stronger. It made me more marketable than the other JD that was sitting right next to me. right so What I did is I said, okay, well, I have this language that others don't speak.
00:06:57
Speaker
I have this degree and a bridge between the Brazilian legal system and the US legal system that others don't have. So how do I target employers for that? So I started looking for jobs in which they needed Portuguese fluency or companies that had offices in Brazil and the US and they did business in Brazil and in the US, right? And when I found those, that's when the opportunities started coming through. And, you know, I really focused on that difference as my strength for the first 10 years of my career, right? Because that's when I'm kind of becoming ah ah stronger in my skill. And once I'm bona fide, I mean, when someone I have a stamp of approval, well, if she has been here for over 10 years, she can do this, then it doesn't matter anymore.
00:07:45
Speaker
right? Such that I talked to some folks at times and they're like, wait a second, can you went to law school in Brazil? I had no idea about that. It doesn't matter anymore. But in the beginning, it matter a lot, right? So that's where you really need to play on that strength. I think it's so important that there are folks like you out there that have had really tremendous success in even particular verticals, right? Of the legal industry, in your case, digital assets, which we've talked about and FinTech. because it it paves the way for others. My next question is is that the way that we actually started talking about this idea for for a podcast and for an episode is because I spoke to one of your mentees, someone who is a foreign trained lawyer in the Philippines.
00:08:31
Speaker
I had amazing things to say about you. I mean, I'd known you before, but had amazing things to say about you in the way that you'd mentored him and then helped him. I guess it's sort of a two-part question, right? Like, did you have any mentors early in your career that really helped you? And how do you think that young lawyers should go about finding that type of mentorship? Yeah. So unfortunately, I didn't have any, right? So I got my LLM in- On a chamfer, which is That was 2000 and I'm in central Pennsylvania because I went to a law school in Harrisburg. so you know There were not that many foreign train attorneys hanging around that area. so yeah There wasn't really anyone to to to serve as that kind of ah guide and advisor. and Then I moved to San Francisco in 2005.
00:09:23
Speaker
And I had to rebuild my network because now I don't know, you know, the lawyers here, so I have to get to know people. So it was really learning on my own, right? Knocking on doors, networking, getting numerous rejections, right? Until, and just persevering, persevering until I really got what I wanted. But I think, you know, that kind of um lack of support in my career, really putting me this kind of duty to give back, right? um There's no reason why other foreign train attorneys have to go through the same challenges that I did. Absolutely not. So, you know, my mentees bring me a lot of joy. They teach me as much as I teach them. And I hope that some of the bits of guidance that I give them are helpful. But I would tell folks that if you're looking for someone to be your mentor, and you are a foreign-trained attorney, try to look for someone that comes from your region or your country because there could be specific areas of the law that are particular to that country that have a strength in the United States. right For example, for Brazil,
00:10:34
Speaker
Is a lot of fintech, right? There's a lot of correlation but between payments in Brazil and the United States. So I actually went into that, you know, and that, that area of the law because I found my path, but there could be that you're dealing with someone that is an Asian country, but there's a lot of import and export. So potentially that error of the law is something that is going to be a stronger strength because you're going to have ah ah you know a company in that country that is trying to import or export into the United States. So look for someone that shares a similar background than you do. But I would say that you know if you don't identify someone that has a similar background, just being foreign trained and understanding what it takes to but break into this market, it's it' just having the resources invaluable.
Benefits of Hiring Foreign-Trained Lawyers
00:11:22
Speaker
We've talked a little bit about, or you've talked a little bit about the perception of risk that exists around foreign trained attorneys. And I use the word perception very specifically, right? Preception, not necessarily a reality. yeah ah Why do you think that companies should consider foreign trained attorneys? Why do you think more companies should have given you a chance earlier on in your career? Yeah, so the the breadth of knowledge and expertise and just global understanding the foreign train attorneys have is very different than attorneys that are here in the US. The attorneys that come to the US s to practice here will likely have practice in their country before they came, which means that they likely interacted in international transactions. They have done business with the United States from their home country.
00:12:09
Speaker
and they are now coming here to gather additional knowledge to be able to further bridge that gap. They would definitely bring an expertise that recent graduates do not have. Recent graduates, many of them are directly from college into law school. They are eternal students, right? They went to high school, then college, then law school. They may have interned during their summers, but they haven't really worked work as a lawyer. right So you're gonna have someone that already brings that global expertise and is able to augment your practice in a way that a recent graduate wouldn't.
00:12:44
Speaker
I think the thing around risks is just the fear of the unknown. And there's really no unknown because all of these attorneys are going to be barred in the United States as just somebody else is. right Everyone is taking the bar exam in their respective states and passing those bar exams. So if you believe that someone that went to ah you know ah um a law school in the US passed the bar and that foreign attorney also passed the bar, they should be both qualified to practice law in this country. right That's what the Supreme Court of the respective states said they would. So there is that. The other thing I think that plays at times is just the the laziness of visa sponsorship. And it's just that, right? A lot of these foreign train attorneys require support for their visa status. So the employer will need to sponsor them into a ah working visa in the United States. And some of them said, you know what, too much work for me. I have somebody else that went here is a US citizen or a green car holder. I don't have to do any of that. I can just put that person in my pocket and go with it.
00:13:43
Speaker
But you know the interesting thing is having been in house my entire career The companies that I've worked at, which are all tech companies, we had an absurd amount of engineers and the vast majority of them were here under visa sponsorships. So there is this disproportionate treatment given to engineers or lawyers, right? Somehow they can get visas and lawyers can. I think it's just, I go back to what I said earlier, you know this is a very pretentious position and people are like,
00:14:15
Speaker
you know I'm here so I want to be good and all of it and it really doesn't open the door for that diversity that you need in the profession. If everyone looks the same, behaves the same, talks the same, right what what good are we bringing to legal practice? Let me ask you a follow-up on that, which is maybe you can break down for for the audience because they might not all be familiar with with what an LLM really is and also whether or not you think all LLMs are created equal, right? or Or whether or not that's actually something that should really be assessed as you're assessing foreign trained lawyers. Yeah. So they are definitely not created equally because you have LLMs in the US that are for US attorneys like tax law.
00:15:02
Speaker
Right. You get an LLM in tax law. If you want to be a tax practitioner, but you have this master's in law on US studies, that's usually what they call in the schools may change the name, which is they're trying to bridge again, the gap between is usually civil law versus common law. Right. um So they try to bridge that gap between the two. And that's what they teach you during those courses. Now, the interesting thing is that. it's more you You have some classes with the JD students, um you can have some electives, but they are very different from each other and sometimes they do not cater.
00:15:39
Speaker
to your selected state's requirements to take the bar exam. So as an example, the District of Columbia says, no, you just don't get an an alum. You need to go to law school and you have to have 26 credits and an ABA accredited law school on subject matters tested on the bar exam. And once you complete those credits, you can take the bar. So that is not a lot of them but it is kind of it is it isn't so like you're taking constitutional law criminal law contracts and all these kind of things because that's what gets tested in the bar exam right and then after you complete those you do it.
00:16:16
Speaker
um You have states that have no requirements at all for LLM to see for the bar exam. You just take the bar exam. And you have some states that say, no, you need to go back to law school all over again. So it's all over the place in the US on how, and it will depend on what the state, what is the the state's policies and needs, right? When you're dealing with California, New York, Florida, Texas, where they have these gigantic states that have a lot of foreign business in them, you have a greater need for these internationally trained attorneys to be able to support these companies. But if you're going to a smaller state such as, you know, inland, potentially like Iowa, Nebraska, you know, Kansas,
00:17:00
Speaker
that doesn't have that kind of need, you may find stricter requirements for these international ah lawyers to be admitted to the bar. So it's very yeah, it's very different. You really have to focus on what you want to do and then determine, okay, I want to live in New York. or I want to live in California. I want to live in this state. What do I need to do?
Focused Job Hunting Strategies
00:17:20
Speaker
But you know, the answer to your question goes back to I said in the beginning, they are not all created the same and it's really behooves the the attorney to do the research to figure out which one is the right fit for them. So in a sense, a foreign-trained attorney
00:17:33
Speaker
who's showing up and who's applying for a job in your city or your state and in your sector might actually be more focused as opposed to sort of like spraying their resume around to every tech company or right like may actually have done more legwork to get really focused because they would have had to jump through very state specific hoops to be able to say, get that job in New York City. Yes. And that's what I said earlier, like applying for one and try to blend in really doesn't work. Right? The strength is in the difference. The strength is where you bring that somebody else here doesn't have. So you you do find a pool of professionals that do have that level of expertise that potentially in the area that you're targeting, it's not there. Right? And then they have done that work.
00:18:19
Speaker
to to figure out what they need to do to to get admitted. Interesting. The other thing that we wanted to talk about today is really about how you've navigated moments of career transition, including some recent ones. As you move from company to company throughout your career, I'm wondering if all of those moves were were always planned. No similar plan is somewhere planned you know when you work in house you are really you know especially if it's a small and mid-sized company.
00:18:50
Speaker
You're prone to acquisitions by bigger players, and the legal department is one of the first ones to be kind, right? Because there so the bigger company will already have a legal department, and you're probably redundant, unless you have that kind of expertise that no one else has, right? So, for example, after my um job as a judicial clerk, so I clerked for a judge after law school, I joined a company in Pennsylvania and very seasoned company had been there for over 100 years. and Within eight months of being in there, the company was sold. Everyone was laid off, including me. That was a pretty scary moment for me because I was like, wait a second. I just put all this energy to get this in-house job and I really want this, what I'm going to do. But you know what?
00:19:42
Speaker
You move on, you pick it up and you move on and you go. And, you know, at every job transition that I've had, honestly, um It made me stronger and braver than before. My sister my middle sister says that I'm the most determined and brave person that she has ever met. And I think it's because I i had this goal of what I wanted to do. And I knew that i there were no one else that would get me there but me. So if I let other people dictate my path to get there, I wouldn't get there.
00:20:14
Speaker
If I let these layoffs get me down, I wouldn't get to where I wanted to be. so i you know I could have let these things drag me down, but I actually had the opposite effect. so I just kept on chugging, but yeah, it did happen a few more times throughout my life. But you know again, I just picked it up and and and moved on. Most recently, you you transitioned out of out of Circle. You had a great relationship with the CEO, the company's doing really well, sort of a dream job for a lot of people. I'm curious why you decided that it was right and it was the right time to to make a change. Yeah, so when I actually left, that was kind of a long time in the making. so if i
00:20:57
Speaker
Look back. This it was the end of the summer of 22. And, you know, at the end of every year, at the end of every break, I usually kind of sit down, reassess where things were. My kids were going back to school. You know, I'm just kind of looking at things where they are for me. And it dawned on me that in that in early 24, I was going to turn 50. So I had a year and a half ahead of me and I didn't know what to do with that number. Like I didn't know what it meant. You know, like I could do something with it or nothing with it, right? So what I did is I started reaching out to friends that I knew had gone through a similar transition, had achieved that kind of stage in their lives and wanted to figure out what to do.
00:21:39
Speaker
So, I was chatting with them and kind of, you know, picking their brain. What do you think? Where am I? You know, what are the next steps? So again, so trying to find mentors for me, right, on on this stage of my life. Going through that process, I started having some so medical issues. I guess I love my job, but it didn't love me back. So, you know, after too many visits to the doctor, I decided that it was time to go. So this was late 22. So I met with my CEO in the first week of 23. And I, you know, I share with him my decision and both he and I were in tears, you know, like you said, he and I have and still have, we still have a very good relationship. And I care deeply about the company and and he knew that.
00:22:29
Speaker
He knew that the decision that I was made was something that, you know, it was really important to me and to my family. You know, you only have one body to live. Right. So I picked that. I picked that one. Fair choice. And I think it's really amazing that you're sharing your story about stepping back.
Identity Beyond Job Titles
00:22:49
Speaker
from sort of like a high powered C-suite role, especially as a woman, right? I'm sure that there are other folks out there who might be struggling with something similar or, you know, wondering what are people going to think? If I take a step back, could I ever go back to that again? I think it's great that you're willing to talk, talk publicly about that. Do you think that we need to talk about this sort of thing more? Oh, absolutely. The one thing that I learned through this process is how much people tie
00:23:17
Speaker
their personalities' identities to their job titles is incredible, right? The one question that people kept on asking me when I was leaving Circle, once the announcement was out, it's like, oh, where are you going to? And I said, well, I'm coming to me, I guess. I don't know. I guess that's the answer, right? But they couldn't understand that, right? they They're like, wait a second. You must, you are supposed to go somewhere else. That is the path, right? So it's very hard to detach from that identity, right? And it's and and to realize that you're more than your job title. So it took me some time to disconnect fully from it. Even, you know, my last day was June 30th of last year. And I would say that I wasn't really mentally detached from it until September or October.
00:24:08
Speaker
Because I had been practicing law for so long, my brain was wired to be that way that when I sat back, it kind of, my body was like, wait a second, lady, what are you doing? Right? So just the natural response of like being on your phone 24 seven, that I also had to detox from. Right? So I now, you know, sit in a place that is very different than it was. back then, but it took time to get over that. And it's something that people think is going to be much easier than it is. You think, Oh, I'm going to stop doing this and I'm going to just play, you know, on my guitar all day long. Well, you're going to play your guitar for eight hours a day, like every day. Like, you know, so those are the things that and we we may dream about something until actually comes into reality.
00:24:57
Speaker
I love that for a like coming back to me. I mean, this is not the same thing, but I mean, I went through a layoff like two years ago and I had a very similar realization about three months, four months later, you know, you have to so you like start, you know, thinking about the next job and you maybe do some consulting and like all these things are happening. And you realize that like, even maybe six months later, people will still answer your phone calls, right? yeah People will still talk to you. They're not you know you and not treating you as, oh, like the guy who used to work there, right? yeah I think that it's a really important realization for people to to come to, that they're more than whatever their job is at a particular point in time. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:25:38
Speaker
Circle was it is in a highly regulated industry. I'm wondering if that created any specific considerations for the way you went about leaving. Oh, yes, definitely, you know, especially in this industry being the general counsel. with a company that is highly regulated. If you leave, the assumption is that the house is on fire, right? So general counsel is leaving, oh my God, there's a big problem. And which couldn't be the furthest thing from the truth, right? This this decision was fully mine on my own. So I wanted to make sure that the board, the employees, the federal and state regulators, everyone understood that there was my single choice alone. And I wanted to create a path for success succession that I felt comfortable
00:26:23
Speaker
what that i could look back and feel proud to write i was leaving my team that i had higher each one of them and i fell a duty again to ensure that i left them in good hands so i gave my co during the first week of january i said i'm gonna give you six months notice because that's the right thing to do we're going to go in stages about this you know, communicated with the board, then I communicated with the regulators. I have phone calls with each one of them, not only federal state regulators. And then ah we announced to the employees and they made the public announcement when my successor was found. So it really was that process to ensure that things were done in a way that ah provided for continuity of the service and not only continuity of trust from external and internal parties,
00:27:15
Speaker
in the company, right? Because what I didn't want, it was for for that to break the trust. So as my successor onboarded, I ensured that he had the connections with the different regulators that we have, so that he could continue taking on that that, those conversations, and you know, just so paving the way for the company to continue to succeed. Very intentional, basically. Absolutely.
Life After Circle: Projects and Balance
00:27:39
Speaker
yes since you've Since you've left, what have you been up to? I remember you told me once that you have an RV. I do, I do. And as people say, you don't have an RV until your third RV, but I'm a number two. So so last year we took our RV and we did some traveling in the middle of the country.
00:28:00
Speaker
We tried to hit all national parks in the US, so we did that. That was super fun. Amazing. Then we came back. My kids went back to to school, ah college and high school, and then I started devoting my time to the Wyoming Stable Token Commission, and then consulting through Hathaway and Coons, and doing a couple of other things. But you know what people say, what are you doing? I said, I'm not mentally or fiscally ready to retire. right Both. So this gives me the ability to continue to engage in working while I continue prioritizing my health and my overall wellbeing. I never say never to anything because you not do not know the day of tomorrow, but as of this time in this podcast, I am very happy where I am. And I think that I did make the right decision for me and for my family. I'll put you on the spot. What's your favorite national park?
00:28:57
Speaker
Oh my God, Yellowstone. Yellowstone? I've never been. oh wow There's a thing about Wyoming, right? but yeah It is just outstanding. It's the first national park in the US and it's very big. and What I tell people is that it's very accessible. There are things for you to do. There are so many beautiful parks, such as Glacier National Park, which is in the border of Montana with Canada, but Glacier is a very much backpacking, backcountry hiking park. sure So if you have small children, you may be limited in what you can do, whereby Yellowstone is everything. um So it's just very accessible and beautiful as well. So yeah, that's my number one. What's the best time to visit there?
00:29:43
Speaker
I would say either in May to June or August to September, it obviously gets very, very crowded in the summertime. sure And the weather is never really that hot in Wyoming, so you can still come. You just have to deal with the crowds. In late May, early June, and late August, early September, you still have good weather and you have less people. So you have more access to do things. But I've also been there in the winter, which is Beautiful. It was very cold. It was minus 18. Wow. But, but, but the sun was shining. There wasn't a cloud in the sky. All I had to do was put proper clothing on and you go in with either a snowmobile or one of those snow buses. And cause they don't, they don't plow the roads. it Just pack the snow. Cause the, yeah. Cause the bison walk on the road in the winter time.
00:30:41
Speaker
ah So it's very serene, very quiet, beautiful, the sun shining through the snow and you know the geysers, where they are, are still blowing because it's hot so it melts the snow. So all faith is still blows and everything. So it's just magical. That sounds fantastic. Yeah. All right. I'll have to plan a trip to Yellowstone. You can give me the exact route when i yes when I do. Yes, I will. Okay. Well, that was one fun question that I wasn't expecting to ask you, but I've got two more. ah yeah and And I like to ask these questions of of most of our guests. I mean, the first is is really, I love to read, I'm a big reader and my list is overflowing with recommendations now from the podcast. But if there's a book or two that you might want to recommend for for our audience to pick up and and give a read this summer.
00:31:28
Speaker
Well, I was going to say it's not that exciting, but the one that I most recently read that I really appreciated is called what the best law teachers do. So one of my projects is still to teach and talking to attorneys that have become either full-time or part-time professors. They're like, it appears to be a lot easier than it actually is. And it's very much true. So I, I read this book by Michael Schwartz and Gerald Haas and Sophie Sparrow. And if anyone in the audience is thinking about becoming a law school professor, either part time or free time, take a read is very informative. It's just really assessing for, you think this is a good thing to do? Why? And are you up for it? Right? Because the amount of time in preparation for classes,
00:32:16
Speaker
and follow-ups and student time is really demanding. So sometimes start t some folks start teaching and then they they just do one course and they give up because it's just too much time to be devoted to you. You really must love pedagogy and just yeah being a professor to be able to do that. so We'll have to have you back on another time. Maybe do a panel of people who are law school professors. That would be fun. Yeah, yeah. A last question for you, and I like to ask this of of all of our guests and it's, you know, if you could look back on your days, sort of just getting started, maybe early on in Pennsylvania, trying to get that first job, what's something that you know now that you wish you'd known back then? It's what I said earlier and it's, it's never enough emphasizing that my single difference is my biggest strength. I did not know that.
00:33:07
Speaker
I thought again that I should just blend and be vanilla corporate counsel, like everyone else. And until I realized that that's what made me special. I didn't find my path, but I did. And you know, you live and learn. So very happy. It's been such a fun and different episode for me to create with you. Thank you so much for coming on, Floria. Yes, my pleasure. And um if there's anyone in the audience that has any other questions, I'll be happy to connect. and to continue empowering these foreign train attorneys to be successful in the US. Absolutely. I love your passion. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Abstract, and we hope to see you next time.
00:33:54
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd recommend that you give my interview in Season 3 with Sarah Bender, General Counsel at Lime, a listen. You can also subscribe so you can get notified as soon as we post a new episode. And if you liked this one, I'd love to hear your thoughts, so please leave a rating or a comment. If you'd like to reach out to either of us, our LinkedIn profiles are in the description. See y'all next week.