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Dr. Jerome Dumetz on Cross-Cultural Management, the Illusion of Blending In & Intercultural Competence Pt 1 of 2
23 Plays11 days ago
Have you ever moved to a new country, convinced you'd adapted perfectly — only to discover the cultural gap was hiding in plain sight? In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, The Auto Ethnographer sits down with Dr. Jerome Dumetz, one of the world's most respected voices in intercultural management and cross-cultural communication.
A self-described "consulting professor," Jerome Dumetz has spent decades bridging the gap between academic theory and the real-world management challenges faced by international professionals. As Vice Rector for International Affairs at a leading Czech university, and having lectured at approximately 25 universities across Europe, Russia, North America, and Asia, he brings rare front-line insight into what it truly means to work, lead, and live across cultures.
🔑 IN THIS EPISODE (Part 1):
- What it means to be a "consulting professor" — blending academic rigor with hands-on corporate consulting
- Why cultural adaptation comes down to two factors: individual cultural competence and the cultural gap between your home and host country
- The dangerous "Illusion of Blending In" — why moving to a similar culture can produce greater culture shock than relocating somewhere radically different
- The "elephant in the room full of mice" — how senior expat executives are often shielded from authentic cultural friction by their position and status
- Why many cross-cultural trainers are still using models from the 1980s — and why that's a problem for today's global professionals
- False cognates and cross-cultural miscommunication: real-world examples from French, Spanish, German, and Russian contexts
- Dr. Dumetz's own expat journey: France → Netherlands → USA → Canada → Russia
📚 CONNECT WITH DR. JEROME DUMETZ:
Post a comment on Jerome’s LinkedIn post and receive a FREE copy of sample cases: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7442114253852921856/
🌐 Website: www.crossculturalstudies.org
📖 His book on Amazon US (also available in other Amazon country sites): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GPDJCKXJ
🌐 LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerome-dumetz/
🌐 Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@jdumetz-consultingprofessor
🎙️ ABOUT THE AUTO ETHNOGRAPHER: The Auto Ethnographer explores the human stories of expats and global professionals navigating life and work across cultures. From boardrooms to back alleys, these conversations uncover universally applicable lessons that span borders, oceans, and cultures. Whether you're planning your first move abroad or you're a seasoned global citizen, there's something here for you.
Learn more about how to move overseas by taking the Your Ticket Abroad class by the Auto Ethnographer. More information can be found here: Course: "Your Ticket Abroad" — The Auto Ethnographer
🔔 Subscribe and don't miss Part 2 of this conversation with Dr. Jerome Dumetz — coming soon!
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Transcript
The Illusion of Blending In Abroad
00:00:00
Speaker
so So I've seen sometimes cases of people who move to a country where they speak the language. And it creates this really curious situation where you are the foreigner, you come abroad, and you feel almost instantly you blend it in.
00:00:19
Speaker
And you feel that because, well, ah people understand you and you don't need to change much your behavior. And it seems to be working well. And people joke at your jokes. I mean, they laugh at your jokes. they ah they I mean, all all is good. And so you you convince yourself that you've adapted very well.
Podcast Introduction: Featuring Dr. Jerome Dumetz
00:00:40
Speaker
The Autoethnographer, your weekly cultural trip around the world. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Autoethnographer. I'm really excited that we have a fantastic guest here, Dr. Jerome Dumetz. He's, in my opinion, one of the most respected resources in intercultural management. For decades, he's worked as a cultural advisor, a trainer, a lecturer, a speaker, and a researcher across Europe, Russia, Eastern Europe, as well as parts of Asia.
00:01:13
Speaker
He's been helping professionals and organizations as well as students learn and navigate the invisible cultural forces that they're bound to encounter in their professional careers. he His work bridges academic insight, but also you know actual daily management issues that people would encounter in their professional careers.
00:01:38
Speaker
He's just released a new book, which is gonna be one of the main topics that we talk about today. He's published another book separately, jointly with colleagues in the past.
00:01:49
Speaker
And I do have to give in here that Jerome and I have met about 18 years ago in Moscow when he was training me on the mysteries and the enigma of the Russian culture when I was a wide-eyed arrival in the end of 2007.
00:02:08
Speaker
So with that, let's jump right in. Jerome, welcome to the Autoethnographer. Thank you very much, John. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for this very nice introduction.
Dr. Dumetz's Background and Entry into Academia
00:02:20
Speaker
No, it it definitely comes from the from the heart. And it's been great to watch um what what you've been doing and accomplishing in the years since we met, really, in 2008. It feels like such a long time ago.
00:02:33
Speaker
It does. tell Tell us a little bit about who is Jerome Dumetz and what got you into this this field that you've been in for over a quarter century? Yes, well, um it came a bit naturally, to be honest. ah So so um I present myself as a consulting professor, which is a bit of a portmanteau where we mix consulting and lecturing. i ah so for starters, I'm French. All right. So... probably noticed by now already quickly. ah So I've had a bit of an international experience, ah which also came naturally, ninety s you know, years 2000, really a period where it seemed to be ah interesting, ah a little adventurous, but also ah ah possible to travel. So a lot of combinations that makes me yeah
00:03:28
Speaker
um After growing up in France, I went to study in the Netherlands, which seems to be a logical thing at that time to study international business because the the Dutch historically for hundreds of years have been very trade orientated. And then I went to do all kinds of little activities and I i worked a bit in Australia.
00:03:48
Speaker
in in the US, in and and in San Francisco, and then moved ah briefly to to Canada, then went back to Europe and and then moved. mean, I go shortly, of course, but I moved to to Russia again. i had been a couple of times before to study in particular. And and in Russia, I i changed a bit of not a career, but I got proposed a job in a university. thought, hey, why not? And so I started to to work at the university. And well, when you work in a university, quickly you're being asked, hey, why don't you teach something? so so I started to to remember the the topics that precisely in the Netherlands was, I mean, what what was very new was cross-cultural management. I mean, two of the most famous authors in this field are Dutch, Hofstetter and Treppenhauer, with whom I had been in contact during my studies. So I kind of ah opened my box and started to... to dig in my books and so on. And so I went on to start some my own research of cross-cultural management, but in Russia, which was like a totally ah new field at that time. ah
00:05:04
Speaker
and um and so I went on to do some some field research, literally asking people about their experience, what is it to work as a foreigner in Russia, vice versa.
00:05:14
Speaker
And one thing led to another that in one of those meetings, somebody said, oh, but we're having a very nice conversation.
Balancing Academia and Consultancy
00:05:20
Speaker
You know, you really need to tell that to my colleagues. And why don't we make a training about that? And I ended up a few weeks later meeting the board of a rather large company where ah a bit of an experience, I did my best to explain ah what what was actually ah ah the Russian culture, the French culture, that that's was the the topic. And actually, I got saved by, i mean, I was doing that with my wife because she's also, a she's a university professor and she's specialized in economic history. So i gathered all the competence I could. ah And it was very interesting because a lot of trainings about
00:05:59
Speaker
cross-cultural something. It's it's about, um you know, the arrival in a country or sometimes it's about communication. I mean, we did all that.
00:06:10
Speaker
But um at the end of the training, actually, ah We weren't sure that it went well. And ah it's the spouse of the g general manager of the company who literally saved us because in the feedback, she was like, oh, thank you very much. That was exactly what I wanted because part of the training, i mean, I didn't care about the business part, but you gave a history lesson about the the country. And that's that what I was expecting. So sometimes you realize that you you need to get back to fundamentals. Yeah. And so after that, continued to do a number of trainings over there and I started to teach elsewhere.
00:06:46
Speaker
And so for since that time, which is like, yeah, roughly about 20 years now, I've been having two careers at the same time. One of them is academic career. So I'm now a vice-rector for international affairs in a Czech university. And I also teach in many places. I've been teaching in about 25 universities now.
00:07:07
Speaker
and And I write articles when I can. i write books occasionally. I go to conferences. I'll go ah probably in May somewhere in Austria. So that's one thing I do. and in parallel, I do also trainings, consulting. So it varies. It goes from... ah coaching one-on-one to family training, people moving, team training. I've been a traveling a lot across Europe, Eastern Europe in particular. I mean, I'm i'm calling from Prague, which is Central Europe. and ah But all the Slavic world has been a bit my playground. And yeah and sometimes big bigger events. That's the kind of stuff I do. And the combination is useful because, um i mean, ah
00:07:55
Speaker
There only great professors out there, but still, ah i try to to I try to do two things. ah In my consulting job, i try to to bring up-to-date theory, because too often I've noticed that um my fellow trainers, they rely on a concept that are totally ah outdated ah from the perspective of researchers, namely the cross-cultural models that were introduced in the in the eighty s When you think of it, it starts getting a little too old So I try to bring to my students, to my to to my clients, a framework that is up to date. And to my students, my consulting enables me to bring some rather um ah current events and and examples that are also not too old. Because, well, you know, you you get all those cliché of companies that failed on that market because they made ah they had a wrong name and this kind of stuff, which is not wrong. But sometimes... I mean, a lot of examples, basically, ah for instance, they they predate Internet, right? So, yes, of course, it was possible at that time to have several brands and this kind of stuff. So I try to bring in examples that are also up to date, right? And it seems to work a little bit well.
00:09:23
Speaker
It's interesting. We did have the chance ah before we started to record to speak a little bit about how we met in Russia about 18 years ago and how...
00:09:34
Speaker
how it's changed so dramatically. Because at that moment in time, in the spring of 2008, that was in many ways the peak economic year that the country experienced before starting to have issues related to the global um financial the financial crisis. And then you know there were other political issues and and ah economic issues that that kept it from reaching that same peak.
Teaching About Russia and Its Evolution
00:10:00
Speaker
and And yet you continue to teach about Russia, the culture and doing business there for some years on. yeah
00:10:08
Speaker
Could you maybe go back a little bit through what you said, how you had to continuously adapt and keep your training material and educational material up to date?
00:10:20
Speaker
yeah Yeah, because I've been, of course, invited um at that time in particular in in many places in Europe to to talk about Russia as a potential market, to explain it and so on. And and I had built a course that was a combination of fundamentals, because I i do believe in fundamentals, bit of history, a bit of geography, bit of all those layers that... creates the soil that which you can actually understand a culture and using all the cross-cultural tools to explain more like the management style, right? And so um that, of course, didn't really change fundamentally. i mean, history, geography, management style hasn't changed. What has changed is the consequences and the
00:11:08
Speaker
the the prospect actually that eventually you could bring as a mix. And so, of course, in 2008, it was all bright, all shiny. It was like ah ah the planets were very much aligned into, well, I mean, one of the first chapters I wrote in a book was ah a book about the bricks. And so it was the time where, where where It seems countries like Brazil, Russia, India, China seem to have a lot in common and would would change a lot of things in the way the world would go. Well, it proved to be, i mean, the term planets align is a very good one because the planets align until they don't align anymore because the dynamism of movement and and that's what happened. So in Russia, went on a different different path, I would say.
00:12:04
Speaker
No, it certainly it certainly did. um let's Let's talk about some of your, well, challenging cultures or or some of your assignments. some I think what i'm um' what I'm curious about is when you coach expat managers across Eastern Europe or in Asia or Western Europe, which which culture or which assignment did you find to be the most challenging to convey to others and and why was that?
00:12:33
Speaker
I would answer the question a little differently. It's not like one culture is more different than another. I mean, more difficult. It's more like ah there there are two criteria for me that matters. First, very important is what international experience do you have?
00:12:48
Speaker
Right. ah The so-called cultural competence, ah which is our capacity to adapt to a different environment, which which does not require to have an international experience because you can have different environment back home already. But ah some people have ah a high cultural competence due to their experience before and and maybe their personality and knowledge and so on. And other people have a lower cultural experience, competence. So that's that's the number one, I would say,
Coaching Expat Managers in Cultural Adaptation
00:13:20
Speaker
event. Some individuals are being asked to...
00:13:25
Speaker
to work in an international project or to move abroad. And and and you really feel like it's like know jumping literally in the in the ocean. you know It's never never done it before and and never in their life they were thinking about it, didn't get prepared for it. And literally discover every little details that are different, starting with well, not everybody speaks English or not everybody speaks whatever as they speak and so on. So that's that's that's the one one element. And the second element would be ah the cultural gap, like how far ah culturally the two cultures are about. So someone coming from Asia, coming to Europe, ah will have to...
00:14:07
Speaker
oh adjusts on many, many things, but the same could be true from someone from the US that comes to to to Europe, ah just to use that example.
00:14:18
Speaker
and and and and And the combination of those two things makes it that basically it's ah how much do we think we know something, right? And that's an extra dimension because some people think they know a lot and they realize that they know cliches, stereotypes, or... ah ah they miss out. So, yeah. ah So I can't really say. I mean, I've heard actually yeah pretty disturbing cases of people, i mean, within the expat world, all right? Like, so people working. I'm not talking about going on holidays or going on pensions somewhere. I mean, let's keep on business approach, right? But cases of people moving to to a culture where where where where the cultural gap is very narrow, for instance. And and and that can be ah
00:15:09
Speaker
that can be an extra trick because ah there are plenty of examples around the world like that. i mean, ah Canada versus the US, ah Germany, Austria, that was a good one, or the French with the Belgium, or the Dutch with the Belgium. And you've got all those. But before the war, it was Ukraine and Russia. So countries where usually individuals, um they they they they connect on one very important element of culture, which is language. So you go to a country where people where you understand what people say. Let's put it this way. all right You understand what people say. It doesn't need to be exactly your language, but you understand more or less. Maybe they've got a funny accent or whatever. and And when you are in a position of management,
00:15:53
Speaker
which is very important, of course, when you're in a position of management, sometimes ah you don't get to see the cultural differences the way someone else would, because, well, the hierarchy ah influences the situation. i mean, basically, ah you you are... a You are the elephant in the room of full of mice, like likela like it's famously known, and all the mice, they walk they walk around, you know and and and and you don't realize that actually ah your immediate environment is actually changing. right So sometimes people in very top management who are expats, it takes them a longer time to realize that they live abroad because
00:16:37
Speaker
Well, they come to the office, everybody speaks the same language,
The Cultural Shock of Blending In
00:16:40
Speaker
not only a question of of language, but ah of jargon and so on. They use the same computer system. but Sometimes the offices look i mean this looks the same because you import furniture and so on. I mean, you can see all kinds of crazy stuff.
00:16:53
Speaker
um so So I've seen sometimes cases of people who move to a country where they speak the language. And ah it creates this really curious situation where you are the foreigner, you come abroad, and you feel almost instantly you blend it in.
00:17:13
Speaker
And you feel that because, well, ah people understand you and you don't need to change much your behavior. And it seems to be working well. And people joke at your jokes. I mean, they laugh at your jokes. they ah they i mean, all all is good. And so you...
00:17:31
Speaker
you convince yourself that you've adapted very well or more generally, you tell everybody around, no, but there's no difference. It's the same, right? or So you live in this country. How is it? Well, it's exactly the same at home. Right. And of course, that's an illusion because you live in some sort of a theater where everybody around is just making you comfortable and they all do their utmost to adapt to you. But one day,
00:17:59
Speaker
Out of the blue, you say something, you make a remark, you ask for something, and and then you got a sudden you know like pushback. you know people they i mean and Typically, it hears something like, oh, but no, sorry, we don't do that here.
00:18:14
Speaker
and And that's enough to get like this sort of reality check, but you're not at home, you know, and you're a guest here. And all that time that you thought you blended in, in reality, no, you you you've had a flashlight on your on on your on over of your head. Everybody knows you're a foreigner because, well, look at you, how you speak, how you behave, and so on. It's just, we've been polite enough not to bother you with that, but don't
Linguistic Misunderstandings Abroad
00:18:40
Speaker
think you've blended in. And that creates...
00:18:43
Speaker
sometimes greater culture shocks than going to a very different culture where people, they look different, they dress different, they eat different. And you're like, all right, there's, i mean, don't try to pretend. I mean, you're you're just, you know, you just don't fit very well. So let's work on it. Yeah. So.
00:19:03
Speaker
That's fascinating. i never really I never really thought about that, um that that the smaller gap ah almost has a bigger potential to trip you up because it's not obvious. because That's pretty fascinating. Yeah, yeah you have forget about it.
00:19:17
Speaker
do do Do you have any example of something that you could share? Yeah. that you've come across during your time you know advising in these corporations? ah among among the classics, I mean, what I'm what i'm going to say, it' it's it's not exactly a breakthrough, but for instance, between between French language in France and and and French Canadian, you you have a lot of... of what we call in linguistics, ah false cognates, which are, the I mean, it's it's ah it's not false friends. It's like words are exactly the same, but they don't mean the same, right? ah And usually it's misunderstanding. It's usually below the belt. ah so Misunderstanding. Like you say a word, it means something else. And and and and everybody' is as everybody's laughing.
00:20:10
Speaker
so i The only the all the examples I've got in mind are improper for podcast, but but yeah usually it has some some funny sexual connotation because you say something, it means something else. Right. That's what we are. are a family podcast here. that yeah but i have to say I experienced very much the same when I was working for Volvo and leading the Americas, mostly Central America, South America. And when you bring together all the different Spanish speaking countries, you find out very quickly that you have those, you called it false cognates, where you have the same exact words.
00:20:53
Speaker
And they brought fits of laughter from everybody because somebody would ask for something quite innocently. And it had a occasionally very dirty meaning in the other. i don't know why, but that's the only one we remember. Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course, of course. ah Yeah, but being embarrassed in Spanish is not the same as being embarrasada, you see? So that that's one of them, for instance. And one example precisely, well, it's in the book. That's why i remember it. It's it's it's it's between the French and German.
00:21:27
Speaker
And there is this ah young ah ah intern, French, a young girl, who who works in ah in in a German company. on an internship. And she's doing all very well.
Coaching Executives vs. Teaching Students
00:21:40
Speaker
She speaks German. All all goes well. and And for her project, she ah she goes to see her boss, I mean, the boss of the company, yeah and who's in his probably mid-50s, and she's probably ah in her 20s. And so she she she comes to his office and she asks for a rendezvous.
00:22:02
Speaker
which ah he he's like, well, ah maybe after work or something. and of course, she didn't get it because for her, a rendezvous means just ah a meeting, where for him in German, it's more like a romantic meeting, right? So they they quickly understood that there was a misunderstanding and that, okay, no it went on well. But ah that's an example, for instance, yeah. I love those examples. And we're going to get to your book in a few moments because you have 199 such examples to talk about. Yeah, yeah, more. You brought up something else that's really interesting about your two tracks of your career, um where number one, you're you're coaching on the executive side, but at the same time, you're also parallel for for many years. You've been teaching, and I think you mentioned like 25 different universities that you've that you've taught at in in a number of different countries. Um,
00:23:02
Speaker
what's the What's the challenge between or the difference between ah coaching the executives and teaching at the university level? I mean, which which audience do you find more challenging and and which one do you possibly enjoy more? And and if if you can't answer because you're spoil your business, too bad people answer anyway.
00:23:24
Speaker
No, I think I can answer. Actually, ah that the best option would be the best of both worlds, which are MBA students. ah Because MBA students, in principle, you're having grown-up students and ah they have work experience. So they they understand, ah they walk on both feet, right? um After, ah it's different challenges. I can't really say which one I prefer. They have different, ah I mean, I'm stereotyping here, but I would say on on the business consulting aspect,
00:24:00
Speaker
Still, often ah participants want some sort of practical quick fixes, right? Like, tell me exactly how I'm going to deal with, I've got a problem with my of my employees, how to talk to them.
00:24:13
Speaker
and I must admit, I mean, i I can bring only some general tendencies like, well, you know, people you're working for generally, they work like that. It doesn't mean your particular employee will be like this. you know So that's that's one of the limits sometimes to to to want a little bit too much of ah of a go through guide. ah for for for the students, well, it depends a bit what ah what specialty they've got. ah I come to like very much engineers ah because they tend to accept that so there are things out there that they still ah can learn, right? So they they I find them a little bit more open to new concepts. And cross-cultural management works very well for engineers, right? Because it's really, ah it's ah usually the in engineering, you know,
00:25:07
Speaker
cur Curriculum misses out a lot of elements such as communication and management, which is which is really bad because many people with an engineering background, they're to end up in a managerial position. and And so I can see that my course breaks because it's really a course of management. I mean, i always insist on that, you know.
00:25:28
Speaker
cross-cultural studies can can be leaning towards mostly communication and linguistics. That's usually my colleagues who language teachers who teach that way. i do that, but for me, it's just one lecture. And I i mostly teach management. So it's ah it's really like a course of modern management, which is influenced by culture. So, ah so so yeah,
00:25:52
Speaker
engineers, like people with ah an engineering mind usually really are very, very open to that. So they miss that out of it. So in follow up to that, is is there anything in particular that that students maybe misunderstand more than executives or or vice versa? Is there something in general that that executives miss that students might catch as ah as a function of of perhaps age or stage of career?
00:26:22
Speaker
Well, yes, having a bit of experience, usually you you you are able to to relate what I'm talking about. so um One of my goals when i when I'm teaching, all right so I'm on the teaching side, ah is that um ah
The Synergy of Teaching and Consulting
00:26:40
Speaker
students are able, while I explain the concept, to figure out potential situations that they will be able to get out, like find a solution find a solution.
00:26:53
Speaker
you know, come up with an innovative approach. In in consulting, usually um we're more into, I don't know, explaining past experience experiences. Like, you know, there is this sort of ah how now I understand moment. that's second Oh, that really reminds me of, you know, oh, what you're describing is exactly what I heard last week, you know, this kind of stuff. So it's kind of vindicates me. oh It's like, all right, so I i got my theory right. The theory is based on facts, of course, but it's always pleasant when when after explaining a concept and so on, someone comes to me and say, oh, but you know what, what you've explained. i mean, this is exactly, that's my daily life, right? This kind of stuff. That feels good, yeah.
00:27:39
Speaker
Oh, that's fantastic. Is there an overlap in your approaches between the teaching at the university and the coaching? Yes, very much. Or do you really see those as a distinct, two separate, different approaches? no, no. Big overlap. It's more, of course, one will be more practical orientated, like...
00:28:01
Speaker
like ah based on ah ah the experience. The other ones would be a little bit more theoretical because, well, you know when you're sitting in a classroom, you need to have a bit of theory.
00:28:13
Speaker
but But you'd be surprised. A lot of professionals are interested in the theory, actually, on their own. And very often at the end of my sessions, the training sessions, ah I'm being asked to send ah a reading list and so on because many managers want to keep on training themselves. And it always feels good to learn something new, you know. and No, I love to learn new things. And I have to
Preview of Next Episode Topics
00:28:40
Speaker
admit that my learning preference is actually to understand the theoretical framework. And then you pack on the more practical, pragmatic things onto that framework and figure out how it all fits and comes together.
00:28:54
Speaker
Yeah, both works. It's also nice to start with the practical and try to figure out the theory. matter of preferences. That concludes part one of my conversation with Jerome Dumetz, renowned cross-cultural management expert and author.
00:29:09
Speaker
Next week, we'll pick up on the conversation where we left off and dive right into Jerome's book, 199 Cross-Cultural Case Studies, short stories of real cultural misunderstandings from around the world and their analysis.
00:29:24
Speaker
We'll also explore the topic of AI and whether that technology will have an impact on cross-cultural management. He'll also give us some advice for people who are going out and interacting with a different culture for the first time.
00:29:39
Speaker
See you next week and keep on driving.
00:29:45
Speaker
Thank you for joining us on today's journey. Please remember to like and subscribe to The Auto Ethnographer and leave us a rating or comment. For more information, visit our website at auto-ethnographer.com.
00:29:57
Speaker
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