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Starship Troopers (1997)
292 Plays3 years ago
Come on you apes, you wanna listen forever?! Join Fraser (Satsunami) and Adam as they discuss the cult classic sci fi film Starship troopers (1997). Does the film still hold up today? Or is it just a product of it's time? Let's find out!
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Transcript
Introduction and Opening Jokes
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chat Tsunami. I'm Sat Tsunami and joining me to know more is my very good friend, Adam. Adam, welcome to the fight. Hello, hello. Good to be back. And you stole my opening joke. So, yeah, I would like to know more. Yes, indeed. I am so sorry. I'd prepared that earlier today as well. I was like, well, God, perfect. Bam.
00:00:45
Speaker
Okay, no, no, let's start again then. Adam, would you like to know more about today's topic? Yes, I would like to click yes. Oh, that is such a funny joke that I totally didn't steal, I apologise.
00:01:01
Speaker
Oh my god, where do we even begin with this film? Or rather, do you want to introduce the topic of the day to the audience?
Introducing 'Starship Troopers'
00:01:08
Speaker
We shall be talking about the 1997 cult classic film Starship Troopers, directed by Paul Verhoeven, starring, let's see if I can get the top review also, starring Aspervan Diem. Is that his name?
00:01:22
Speaker
I think so. For the purposes of Chat Tsunami, yes. That's how you say it. That's what he's called now. That's officially his name now. Nice Richards and Neil Patrick Harris. I was just trying to remember. I was like, is there anyone we missed? Nah, I'm sure it's fine. Well, those are the three members. Those are the three heroes of the Federation. Oh, of course. Well, that's for next week.
00:01:44
Speaker
Oh yeah.
Binge-Watching Experience
00:01:45
Speaker
So to give a bit of context, you and I of course went away and we binge watched pretty much all of, well nearly all of the Starship Troopers films. Four out of five. Four out of five, yeah. Not gonna lie, I think by the time we got to the fourth film we were a bit like, you know how people when they say they feel jet lagged? Almost. It felt like Starship Trooper lagged almost.
Film as a Guilty Pleasure
00:02:11
Speaker
I did feel like a bit of a fever dream by the end. Yeah, by the fourth one that was like, why are they all CGI? Why are they this? Why are they that? Yeah, I have to admit though, after watching all four of them, would you say this one is probably the best? Oh, hands. I don't think there's any contest. The first one is just head and shoulders above the rest.
00:02:34
Speaker
and knees and toes everywhere else. I was honestly like so excited because I did want to rewatch it for the longest time and then I think you'd like mentioned you know like saying oh why don't we do it as a chat tsunami episode and it was like on the one hand yes 100%
00:02:52
Speaker
Because for me personally, I don't know about you, but this is such a guilty pleasure film for me. I remember watching this when I was younger and initially not knowing what to think about it. But the more I watched it, the more I was like, okay, this is an awesome film.
00:03:08
Speaker
Would you say it's one of your favourites? Yeah, I would say so. Like, it's silly, it's over the top, it's goofy and I think I had the advantage of not reading the book
Book vs. Film Adaptation
00:03:18
Speaker
first. So, to give a bit of context, yeah, this is loosely, and I use that as loosely as possible, that it's loosely based on a book by an author called Robert Heinland. My turn to mess up the pronunciations today. Yeah, no, I'm not going to leave you... I was like, I don't want to say that.
00:03:38
Speaker
yeah and it's basically about well as the book suggests and the film suggests um it's about starship troopers it's about like the military or rather the earth becoming this like unified force going out to conquer the stars but both of them take a
00:03:56
Speaker
a drastic left and right turn from one another. Like, I feel as if they share the same names, like with the book and the characters and things, but that's kind of where it stops. So, like, before we get into the meat of, you know, the whole topic, yeah, tonight we are going to be talking about really just the film, the
Focus on the First Film
00:04:15
Speaker
first film. And believe you and me, we will get to the sequels, won't we? No, we will. I can see you cracking your knuckles there as if we'll get to it. You didn't make me watch this, were you?
00:04:27
Speaker
Yeah, that is true. So, see when I say we watch them back-to-back, we did watch them back-to-back. We technically had a break between the first and the second one, and then the second and the third one, because it was. I mean, we even had to get pizza and everything just to break it up, because it was like, this is, if you did it back-to-back, like, straight, yeah, thank you for the loss of your mind.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, I watched, I once watched the whole first season of that TV show 24 with a friend in a day and I feel like the four Starship Cooper films took more out of me than that first season of Tony. Really? Wow. I'm just joking, they were both about the same. Oh, but that's a really thin.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, let's just jump right into it. And like a couple of... God, whenever I ask this, I always feel like either a university lecturer or like a teacher or something. I'm like, Adam, in several sentences or less, explain this film.
Satire and Militarism
00:05:20
Speaker
Like, what is this film about? Yeah.
00:05:22
Speaker
on the surface level this is a rather big dumb action film about humans fighting space aliens however if you dig a bit and you know this is open to a bit of interpretation but if you dig into it this is actually something of a satire of
00:05:40
Speaker
of militarism, of the effects of war, of having war as the central theme of your civilization. So yeah, there are a lot of satirical elements to this below the surface, but I think if you do just look at this as a surface level thing, this is a big dumb space film to the T. Everything's turned up to the max.
00:06:06
Speaker
It is a goofy film, though. In the best way possible, I would say. It's a fun satire. It's not often I would be like, oh, this is a fun satire of war. But it really is, doesn't it? Oh, it is. You can just watch it on the deserves level and just have fun with it.
00:06:26
Speaker
You can just enjoy how mindless it appears. It's very action-heavy. It's not a boring film. It's not a slow-plugging film at all. You can just get swept up in that and really enjoy it. But as well, as you say, there is a lot of satire there as well. But as you say, it's done in a very...
00:06:58
Speaker
I'm actually quite surprised that he took on a film like this though because as I said this film is based on the book of the same name yet there were like a lot of changes from the book like as I was saying to you
00:07:13
Speaker
probably not to your benefit but I kept saying things like well in the book because I've read like a bit of the book and there were some kind of minor, well minor major changes which I'll probably bring up later but I kept saying to you like well in the book because there genuinely were like a lot of interesting changes and then other ones where it was just like right okay Paul Verhoeven's like doing his own thing
00:07:38
Speaker
which is weird because even though it does its own thing and it's completely different, it was still entertaining. You get some, like, I mean, we're no strangers to, like, bad adaptations, are we? Yeah, Alone in the Dark, Super Mario Bros, you know, Turkey Star Wars. How did that sneak into this review? I don't know.
00:07:59
Speaker
you know like bad adaptations like that but somehow although he only takes like snippets of the book he does like create this quite interesting as you said interesting satire and I don't think it was well received though when it came out
00:08:16
Speaker
No, it wasn't. It was a commercial failure as well. I don't think it did that well. I probably just really gained a very cult status down the line.
Intent of the Book
00:08:25
Speaker
I actually really wanted to ask you, because obviously you said you read some of the book. I've not read the book at all, but I was reading a few things about it today. From what you've read of the book, just to put you on the spot here, I mean some literary theory here. From what you've read the book,
00:08:40
Speaker
Is the book satirical at all? Or do you think the book is quite genuine in what it's kind of expressing? I think it's a bit of both. I think it's a lot more blunt with the way it portrays itself. So there's a very famous scene in the film. I remember when I was younger, this is a scene that they would put on all of the adverts where
00:09:05
Speaker
the three main characters go to enlist in the army, and one of them is told that he's in the mobile infantry, which is just the army, and this guy shakes his hand, the recruiter shakes his hand and says, welcome. Joining the mobile infantry made me the man I am today.
00:09:21
Speaker
so he shakes his hand he pushes his chair back and you can see he's completely lost his legs and you know that's played for laughs and everything and they're like oh ha ha ha very funny but in the book i was like really taken aback by the way they portray it so basically when the three of them go in the film you know they just like get a sighting to you know the rose like one of them goes to like the secret service
00:09:46
Speaker
one of them goes to the Flight Academy and the other one goes to the Army. But in the book, the female, their love interest rather, goes to join the fleet whereas the other two are actually given quite a stern talking to. And it's really weird because the guys like, listen, you know, don't join up if you're not serious about it. We get loads of people joining. You know, it gives it almost quite a weary cynical take.
00:10:14
Speaker
It's like it's not right away with the like, oh join up, it's great. He does say things like, no matter what, so long as you're not hypnotised under the influence of anything, then we can find a job for you anywhere. And they are literally like, we can find a job for you, you know, peeling potatoes on a ship or shovel duty, which does technically come back in the third film, but let's not go into that. You know, like, things like that. There's even like,
00:10:39
Speaker
a weird thing in the books there's like psychic dogs where it's like the psychic dog is like I don't know if they're psychic but it's like a type of special dog that can talk to its owner and when the owner dies like it has to get put down and it's like really weird sci-fi territory and same with the power armor like they make a big thing about their being power armor in the books and things but yeah in the film it's just like it's just a set of armor which obviously it must just be
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah, like I can imagine yeah, I can imagine why because it's not like is it loved I repeat you're the Tom Cruise Oh, yeah, well, that's kind of a just tomorrow. Sorry. Well, yeah, it got gone both so confusing that title better
00:11:21
Speaker
and you know how they've got like the power armor on and the kind of exoskeleton like i can't imagine them back then having the budget or the you know kind of scope to have that so i can see why they changed it but yeah sorry like looking back sorry that was a tangent looking back to your question i
00:11:36
Speaker
would say they're a bit more earnest in their kind of commentary. Like as I said I haven't read the entire book so there might be like a page at the end saying like war is great! I don't think there is but you know I'm just covering myself in case I'm like this book's great and then...
Director's Perspective on the Book
00:11:55
Speaker
It's interesting because there doesn't be a debate about people who think he was writing a satirical novel and other people who think this guy was genuinely like writing a book that was like very pro-militaristic and was arguing for like you know America should become a more militarized society and there's a lot of stuff comparing like the bugs are compared to communism this was written in 59 I think
00:12:15
Speaker
yeah i think so yeah there's a lot of stuff saying the bugs are like supposed to be communists you know in the way they live in a collective and everything it's like this warning you know of like america's becoming soft you know so there's a debate over that and as well like paul verhoeven read the book but he apparently hated it
00:12:32
Speaker
and he wasn't, he said it was too boring, he couldn't finish it and apparently like when he directed this film, he directed the film specifically to be a satire of the themes of the book so he obviously he read it and he viewed it as like a very pro-militaristic, pro-militarism piece of work so it's just interesting, I just wanted to know what you kind of thought about it because I've not read it and I don't know if I ever will but I just thought like
00:12:54
Speaker
they just didn't see what we kind of thought. I mean, the only thing that I am a bit on the fence about is just the fact that it isn't really an adaptation of the book, if you know what I mean? Like, it's taking somebody else's work and, don't get me wrong, like you can have your own interpretations of it and everything, that's fine, but it's the fact it's taking somebody else's work and then kind of twisting that into something completely different.
00:13:20
Speaker
which as I said I'm on the fence because on the one hand I do like this film. I think it's a lot of fun, it's got a lot of cool moments, the satire's great but on the other hand there's like a lot of kind of nuances and smaller aspects and I'll get on to it later when we discuss like some of the key scenes but there's a lot like character interactions and things. Also as well and I'm gonna call out Paul Verhoeven, not that he's ever gonna listen to this but I'm gonna call
00:13:46
Speaker
purely for the fact that he keeps saying like oh it's supposed to be this parody and everything what the hell does or sorry rather not what the hell where the hell does he think Buenos Aires is because like the only reason I bring this up is because this is where the book set or sorry the film set it begins in Buenos Aires where we've got Johnny Rico or Juan Rico as I think his full name is played by Caspar Van Dien I'm leaving a pause here I go Google him look at his face
00:14:17
Speaker
Because he is action. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's got a certain job. I will admit he has got a mighty chin. Definitely.
Portrayal of Society in the Film
00:14:24
Speaker
And that's not an insult. That's more like me being jealous because I don't have a mighty chin.
00:14:31
Speaker
Oh, it's like, you know the erasers you used to get in school? It's like, his hasn't been used in the origin comparison. It's like the worn down erasers. Honestly, he should be cast as Superman just for that chin. Really? Yeah. Comic book. Like, if I say lantern jaw, isn't he? Yeah. A Roman jaw. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, chiseled by, I don't know if Michael Angelo was, no he wasn't, he was a painter. Anyway, that's... No, he was a sculptor as well. Did he? Did he sculpt?
00:15:00
Speaker
We'll have something new for you in chance. There you go, it's calm. Yeah, that's it. Ah, so it was good. I always get them mixed up, you know that? Because there's like too much culture in Italy. So yeah, thank you for coming to our Ray Chats and Annie podcast. No, I'm joking.
00:15:16
Speaker
yeah long story short from that rant yeah Buenos Aires is looking very much more like a stereotypical American suburb and I think that was probably done intentionally to be like oh look it's that iron things but I don't know like all I'm saying is when I watched this when I was younger like I had no idea where Buenos Aires was and I was like oh that must be near America and then the more
00:15:41
Speaker
Which it is technically, it's obviously South America, but the morning when I watched it the morning I was like, hold on a minute, Buenos Aires, Argentina, huh, okay. Okay, maybe, yeah, maybe a poor representation as a whole. That, and it gets spoilers, it gets pretty squashed later by a meteor, so.
00:16:04
Speaker
that's all it's almost a parody of like something like Star Trek in a way because it's always a parody of these like future societies where it's like you know it's like world government you know and everybody lives in harmony like and I don't know if this was meant as like I may be giving
00:16:19
Speaker
Paul Verhoeven and the screenwriters and everything, too much credit here. But it almost kind of, just because the rest of the film is so much of a parody, I almost wonder if that's like a parody of that like quote unquote utopian future, you know, where like, you know, it's like one big like, it's one like kind of conglomerate of human race. Yeah. Again, I might be too much credit, but you know.
00:16:40
Speaker
Well you do have a point. I mean they do immediately split off people. Well after the beginning where it shows you like a huge battle scene and the main character getting stabbed through the leg and everything by a big bug it like cuts back to a couple of months before he joins up and we see Johnny's like life as a
00:16:58
Speaker
Well, just as a high schooler, and I say that very, very loosely because he's about what, late 20s, early 30s or something? I think he was 29, I think he needed this. Yeah, there's no... I nearly greased levels of high school.
00:17:14
Speaker
remember you saying that it's true because it's really like as we said a loose adaptation of Buenos Aires and a loose adaptation of teenagers because you've got um Denise who was the second um person Denise Richter that was that sorry i was blanking on her surname there you know like her as well she still looks a bit older and you know they all kind of look i mean the only one who doesn't is Neo Patrick Harris he kind of looks like baby faced in a way even when he gets his like pseudo
00:17:44
Speaker
fascist over later on there is nothing pseudo about that that is straight up an SS uniform yeah it's like the big black trench coat later on and then boots and you're like
00:18:00
Speaker
yeah that is the subtlety of this film is non-existent. It is bombastic from start to finish with a kind of lull at the beginning when we're looking back into the past about how they got into the military to begin with and the reason is because this society puts like so much emphasis on the idea that you have to fight for your citizenship. It is like
00:18:22
Speaker
interesting you know moral questions that they put forward you know if you want to be a politician if you want to run for government if you want to do any of these things you have to like first join the I don't know what they call it overall because you've got like the different branches of the military you know you've got like the mobile infantry which is the famous one that's like just the regular army you've got the fleet which is the as it suggests it's like the pilots the spaceships that kind of thing and then you've got the
00:18:51
Speaker
I said pseudo but yeah the SS. You've got the secret service that's kicking about in the background and doing like all the research. I mean that is quite interesting in a way to see like how they develop this society if you know what like in terms of world building.
00:19:07
Speaker
Like I do like that. I like the fact that they take time to kind of, you know, establish that this is the way of life and this is the norm. This is how kids are kind of brought up. And even like Rico's parents say like, oh, your tutor or your teacher is filling your head with nonsense and all of this because they have the luxury of just the fact that they're well off. So they don't have to become citizens. They don't have to sign up.
00:19:30
Speaker
but Rico still does it anyway because he's infatuated by Denise Richards. I mean there is a joke somewhere that everyone was in the 90s you know but yeah especially for Rico like he does it so bad that he joins the bloody military to fight bugs but before like we get on to like you know him joining the military and everything what were your thoughts of the intro?
World-Building and Satire
00:19:53
Speaker
I think it's a really clever intro because as you say like it's there's some great world building there
00:19:58
Speaker
and it puts you right into what you get. You can totally understand the mindset of what this world is now. This is a militaristic society to the T. This is everything revolves around. If you want to say anything, you have to be part of the military. It does set up this world, and it's actually brilliant at doing it in this way. What's really interesting as well, apparently that opening, so as you say, it starts with a big kind of
00:20:25
Speaker
propaganda piece thing apparently a lot of that a lot of that opening stuff is almost like shot for shot based off like one of like the most famous like nazi propaganda film of the 30s called triumph of the will which was this like which was this film like i think it's i think it's like 34 35 or something like that it's from
00:20:43
Speaker
like early into the Nazi regime where it's like showing off like you know the devotion of the German nation to like Adolf Hitler and it's a giant it's also these giant like military like parades you know of the German army and the SS and apparently like it's a lot of like the early scenes are based off that
00:20:59
Speaker
So already you're getting the kind of, you already can see the kind of the satire here in a way of like, this society has just become so militaristic and like, nobody questions it. And it's almost that way of like, just seems to have like, insidiously, like these values are just insidiously like, wormed their way into it. And like, to the fact that nobody questions it now, everybody's like, well, of course, yeah, like, you know, we're a militaristic society. And to become like, a full member of society, you need to like serve, you know, and some questioning and unflinching loyalty.
00:21:28
Speaker
doing your part for you know the Federation so it's actually a really effective like opening and it's something that I think actually on repeated viewings actually gets better yeah I don't think quite got I mean I'll I'll save like my thoughts on the film overall and like my history with it till the end but I don't think it's something I quite grasp at the time when I first watched it it's only kind of having seen it again I'm like okay now I get what this film is and I think it's a really really clever opening
00:21:54
Speaker
I would agree with that. Like when I first saw I was like so young and thinking, oh yay, pew pew, lasers, yeah giant bombs. Like I didn't really grasp or kind of appreciate what Paul Verhoeven was kind of going for and then you rewatch and you're like, oh that's clever. Because it's going back to what you were saying about the kind of propaganda aspect and this is like one of my favorite parts of the film, not the propaganda.
00:22:19
Speaker
itself but more the there's like kind of news reels cut in between which i absolutely adore like these are kind of over the top propaganda things and as you said it kind of gives a reflection about what this kind of society is like and i absolutely love it because
00:22:36
Speaker
As she said, it's like kind of indoctrinating people to think, oh, this is just a stereotypical way of life. And they do this in quite a clever way because there's a lot of parts where they use children in their advertisements. So at the very beginning, like after the... or sorry, before we see the mobile infantry in action, there's like an advert for them and they're all like, you've probably seen like a gif of it at some point where it's like the women looking in the camera going, I'm doing my part. And then the guy goes, I'm doing my part.
00:23:05
Speaker
And then it cuts to this wee boy hiding behind this column of soldiers and he pops out and goes, I'm doing my part too! And they all laugh, you know? They laugh it off as a ha ha, look at that cute child, you know, dressed and that's his uniform.
00:23:21
Speaker
but then it continues. It doesn't like do it for everyone but it continues. Like you get adverts where the soldiers are literally giving them these huge assault rifles and handfuls of bullets. You know they're like playing with it as if it's a toy and they're just laughing it off as if it's just normal. When they go to invade Klandatu which we'll get onto later but it's like the planet where the bugs come from. You're the main antagonist of this thought. Well debatably debatably
00:23:48
Speaker
antagonism as well but you see like kids you know stamping you know these bugs on the ground which i have verified were fake because they did look very realistic but it turns out they're i did wonder that yeah same i thought did they just dump cockroaches on them
00:24:03
Speaker
on the ground and just get into stamp but no though, yeah right, yeah they're fake and there's like a huge thing of do your part you know as if like even from a young age they're getting kids to like you know get into this mindset of this is what you should be doing you should be you know contributing to the society for the glory of the Federation and all of this it's really clever and that way I will admit those kind of things are really interesting there's some other ones that are a bit
00:24:31
Speaker
I'm gonna be honest, but yeah, we'll get to that though. But no, I do agree. I think it's really well done. Yeah, that really leads us into, I suppose the first half of the military section, we get to see Rico go through boot camp and see how he
Boot Camp Comparison
00:24:48
Speaker
interacts.
00:24:48
Speaker
And I have to admit, it's, and again, I apologise, but it is different compared to the books. Yeah. Because I was saying this to you and you were like, oh god, sure. Now you're on, really. But it was like the way some of the characters were really portrayed. Like, for example, is it Sergeant Zim? Yeah, it's the... Or Lieutenant Zim. I can't remember. I can't remember his rank now, but I've forgotten the word, but yeah, the trainer.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, they had the instructor. Yeah. Instructor, that's... Yeah, so, yeah, there's an instructor who is, I think, is a Clancy Brown, isn't he? Yeah, it's back down, yeah. Yeah, the kurgun himself. And if you've played Detroit Become Human, he's also in that as well. Fun fact of the day. If you'd like to subscribe to Clancy Brown, thanks.
00:25:34
Speaker
You can do at 12345. But yeah, jokes aside, he's quite a serious, well not serious, he's more of a caricature of a drill sergeant, isn't he? Almost like a full metal jacket without the cycle slant on it.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah, or rather the unhinged aspect of it, because it's like he's, you know, yelling at them and, you know, getting them to do 20 laps, beating them up, you know, like doing all of this. In the book he is portrayed in a very similar way of being like a hard-ass, but the
00:26:04
Speaker
do kind of strip away like or rather they look into his vulnerabilities as a person rather than you know just the caricature of a drill sergeant saying you know like there's one scene where Jake Busey who plays like one of the recruits is like you know he's bragging he's saying what's the point of carrying knives you know we've just got a gun the instructor asks him to put his hand on the wall and he basically throws a knife through it and he says the enemy cannot press a button if you disable his hand and then he yells to the medic and that's like
00:26:35
Speaker
that's like again portrayed as like oh haha this funny scene but in the book there's a scene that's kind of it is really interesting it's basically Rico gets put on I think admin duty or something and he sees that one of his colleagues gets like laid in by Zim and they're having an argument and he's basically saying to the main commander of the facility like oh Zim's bullying me and everything and the commander's trying to like you know
00:27:02
Speaker
brush him off and see, or, you know, bug it off. But eventually this recruit ends up admitting that he hits him to which, you know, the commander has to step in and be like, oh, we can't accept that. Thrice, the lashing's for you, you know? It gets him off and he gets his, you know, he gets, like, whipped in front of the, I can't remember the official term for the, flogging, that's it.
00:27:25
Speaker
Is it flogging? Yeah, it gets flogged in front of the other recruits to show you don't do that. But later on, the main character overhears a conversation between Zim and the commander, and basically Zim admits that he let his guard down in front of this particular recruit because he was starting to be quite... I suppose the right word's affectionate, you know? Or not affectionate, but you know, he was starting to think, oh, maybe he's not such a bad kid after all and being a bit harsh on him.
00:27:55
Speaker
and then the guy turns round and like leathers him in the face. It's like, oh, oh no, please, please stop. But the commander even says, you know, oh, I'm just, you know, like I noticed you got punched and I didn't want to say anything. But the fact the guy opened his mouth and he admits to punching a superior officer that then he has to step in. And to me anyway, like in those scenes in the book, it shows this kind of apathy
00:28:22
Speaker
the Federation you know it's like oh right okay we've all got our jobs and for the mobile infantry they're like we'll do our duty we take our jobs very seriously but at the same time there's that kind of apathy of they don't want to do the paperwork kind of thing whereas in the film it's taken a lot more seriously it's taken on as like you know again like a kind of jokey character and it's a lot of fun to watch like I'm not dissing the actor or the character but it's two completely different portrayals but anyway sorry
00:28:53
Speaker
That was like a huge tangent. What did you think of the boot camp scenes? Yeah, I think they're good scenes, but I think they're good for a different reason. What I really like about the opening, as I said, is the kind of undercurrent of the satire. Undercurrent as well, but it is quite obvious. It's both subtle and really obvious at the same time. It's a pretty interesting mix. I don't quite know how I got it.
00:29:16
Speaker
It's both things at once. I didn't find that so much with the boot camp scenes. Like maybe, maybe I just, maybe I missed it here, but for me, like I didn't, I mean, okay, fine. Like maybe the satire is like, Oh, you know, it's a hard military life, but I don't know if that's satire at this point. Like we kind of know, we got to know how hard like a military life is and training and things and this sort of thing. It's very over the top, the training. I think it's that it's funny that you said full metal.
00:29:40
Speaker
I was like it is like kind of like souped up on steroids version of like Full Metal Jacket but kind of without the sort of like as you said like psychological like you know the horror of what of like the first half of Full Metal Jacket is like this one is just the kind of like
00:29:55
Speaker
ridiculous like Zim Zim is like the instructor like like caricatures basically to like the to the nines and everything like up to the max and everything the training exercises and everything and then like there's a scene at the end towards the end of the training size where one of Rico's soldiers a squad mates is like accidentally killed during an exercise and even that's like it's that traditional it's like a classic like Paul Verhoeven like kind of violent he did a lot with sort of models and everything like that and so the guy's head look explodes basically and everything it's
00:30:25
Speaker
it's just so over the top and like it's good for that like it's fun for that but I don't it doesn't have for me that kind of like the undercurrent of satire that on the other parts of the film have um even the flogging scene which is like you know which is like oh wow that's like pretty pretty intense but at the same time the guy doing the flogging is like got this ginormous weapon he's doing like the flourishes and everything you know it is and like the thing that rico is like strapped to is like it looks like something out of like star trek or something you know like it's just like so like over the top
00:30:55
Speaker
So it's still good, I still like this scene. It's very different from the opening. Oh no, absolutely. It is good but it's just it's so... it almost feels... and this is kind of terrible but it's like a full... or sorry, rather if Disney Channel made an adaptation of Full Metal Jacket, you know? It's like so over the top but it kind of lacks that bite, if you know what I mean? Yeah.
00:31:23
Speaker
like again as you said there's no paradigm saying war is hell or training up is hell you know because at that point in the film there is no war they're just like training to become part of the mobile infantry and you even get a scene though where they all discuss their
00:31:41
Speaker
you know hopes and dreams about why they joined up saying like oh I joined up because I want to be a politician I joined up because I want to be this granted it's in a very gratuitous way which and you gave me a fun fact about that scene actually oh the showers yeah that's the one
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, so there's like a scene where basically it's a communal shower scene, but like one thing about the Federation military is that it's like, you know, both men and women serve together alongside each other. And so this communal shower scene has both men and women like, you know, completely naked just showering beside each other and everything. And apparently I read that the cast of the film were very reluctant to do that scene.
00:32:21
Speaker
for obvious reasons. And I think, apparently, I don't know if this is true or not, I've not fact-checked it. But apparently, they did it on the condition that Paul Verhoeven, the director, would direct that scene naked himself. I mean, I could believe it. I mean, I didn't fact-check it, but I could believe it. Certainly. It's an interesting scene, that one, because I don't know how to feel about it. Because on one hand, I'm like, was this just an excuse to put some nudity in this film? Part of me is like, and in fact, that's another Verhoeven.
00:32:50
Speaker
Like, there's usually nudity in most of his films. I mean, this one isn't as bad as something like Showgirls, but there still is nudity to some extent in these films. In fact, you can't tell whether it's just that. But on the other hand, I don't know, I didn't feel like it was a leery camera.
00:33:09
Speaker
In a way, I feel a lot of these scenes get very leery, especially around the female characters. It kind of just felt like it was being shot almost just like an almost documentary thing. It's just like, this is just happening. And it's interesting to watch the men and women interact in the shower, because there didn't seem to be any kind of leering from the male characters or any kind of sexualisation from either.
00:33:32
Speaker
And then they were just kind of, it was like, it was just like you imagine like soldiers just like, you know, like shooting the breeze and like, you know, like ribbing on each other and everything and just chatting away, just doing it. So I don't really know how to feel about the scene, but like, it is, I did laugh about that story, if it's true.
00:33:48
Speaker
No, I do agree with you on that because, I mean, you and I have played games recently where strategy is like a tagline in it. Heavy rain. But yeah, heavy rain has signed in my obsession with David Cage.
00:34:03
Speaker
You know, like, that shower scene in this film, you're right, like, it's not filmed in a way where it's like, oh look, you know, these women are, you know, lathering themselves up and look at these guys, you know, wolf-less. Like, you know, they're just cleaning themselves. Like, it's very just, I mean, don't get me wrong, it probably could have been cut. Like, I don't think you would have missed much if it was gone. But at the same time, as you said, it's not like over the top, it's not, you know, like, there's nothing too bad with it in that sense.
00:34:33
Speaker
I mean, I suppose I'd rather give him the plus for that. I mean, it was compared to the weapon scene. Yeah, yeah, the weapon scene is, yeah. Yeah, the weapon scene's a thing. That's something. It's a thing. Signed by Adam and such and that. It's a thing. Yeah, that of course leads to the iconic war scene.
00:34:53
Speaker
you can call it that, where the bugs, if you will believe it, if you'll believe the propaganda. In fact, sorry before that. Honestly, it's like a clavicade of like misfortune for Rico, isn't it?
Character Development: Rico's Journey
00:35:06
Speaker
It's like first of all, he's like top of his, you know, unit and everything and the high, like the top brass or
00:35:13
Speaker
or about the top brass of the camp are kind of thinking, oh he would make a great captain the new they're fawning over them all look at this guy and then it ends up he gets a i don't know what you call it a video call or like a video message basically how they thought like communication would have gone in the future yeah where he gets like a video message from his quote-unquote girlfriend saying
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah, like spaceships now, you're dumped. And he's like, oh, okay, that's bad. And you know, Jake Busey becomes his friend, and to top it all off, he gets a guy in his squad killed, he gets flogged for it, you know. And I have to admit, something that I do find funny, and I did notice that a lot of other reviewers have pointed this out, seeing the person who actually shot his squadmate by accident, she got off a lot lighter.
00:36:01
Speaker
Compared to Rico. So the reason the guy gets shot is because, well, to be fair, the reason they're saying the film is because the guy's helmet won't fit. So Rico takes it off to try and readjust it and one of the women in the squad, she ends up falling over and firing her gun, which ends up hitting them directly in the head. I'm not gonna lie, I don't think a helmet would have done much to stop that. Yeah, it's probably unlikely.
00:36:28
Speaker
yeah but that that is one of my favorite scenes ever it's as you said it's so over the top as soon as it gets like shot in the head it zooms in to Caspar Van Dien's face and he's just like MEDIC! he just screams oh it's oh it's beautiful just great cinematography
00:36:45
Speaker
but then of course you think how could this day get any worse after he's been you know flogged and this girl she goes away and yeah it turns out the Buenos Aires has been hit by a meteor or an asteroid rather from the bug planet of Clandatu which we come to know very well
00:37:02
Speaker
and yeah it's just like this is where the propaganda and everything like it's hyped up to 10 isn't it where it's like yeah you've got the shots of the destroyed city and it's like millions dead and you know they zoom into the guy like amongst the wreckage going the only good bug is a dead bug which i think over a hoofin by the way i think was it i think it's apparently he's in this film i think that's i think that's him wow oh god there you go that would be cool if it was but
00:37:31
Speaker
But yeah, we can all tell what that line's referring to, I suppose. Yeah. It eventually, of course, leads to, I suppose, the... I don't even know what you call them. The Federation, I suppose, as a whole. The Federation declares war on these bugs and...
00:37:47
Speaker
Oh boy, it does not go well. Granted, it's like, it's one of the coolest soundtracks I think I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, if you want to look it up, it's called Klandathu Drop. Like, even if you watch the whole scene with that music, it is fantastic from when the soldiers are, like, running into, you know, their shuttles and they're getting, like, shot down to the surface. It is great. It is absolutely a fantastic scene. And I was like,
00:38:15
Speaker
I would wholeheartedly be like, yeah, this is one of the top scenes ever. It's like Citizen Kane, that's a wonderful life. Get that black and white shit out of here. No, I'm only half joking, but that is a good scene. What did you think?
00:38:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's the scale of it. I think what's so impressive is that you can see the number of extras they had in it. Like it's not like, it's not, you know, there's, there's some people in the foreground that it's like, they've CGI'd the rest of the audience into it. Like it, it looks, it is all real like actors like charging out, you know, and everything. And it gives it this ginormous scale. And what, what I like about what also is, well, can I just say one thing I love about after the asteroid seed is the, is the freaking casualty counter.
00:38:59
Speaker
seems like spiraling up. I just love that. As you said, millions dead as this thing just keeps rising up. I don't know if you wanted to save this point for later on or not, but do you want to talk about the conspiracy theory? Do you want to save that for later time? No, we might as well go into it now. Well, I'll let you use the setup and then we can
00:39:21
Speaker
So basically what ends up happening as we said is the official story is that the asteroid was sent from the...
Conspiracy Theory Discussion
00:39:31
Speaker
is it their galaxy? Or is it just the planet? Like I know obviously it's supposed to... It's from the planet but I might be wrong.
00:39:38
Speaker
It's the only reason I say that is because at the beginning they show you where Klandathu is in comparison to Earth and it is a mighty distance away. It is like miles, thousands of or millions of light years away. And a lot of fans of the film have now come to the conclusion, or not the conclusion, but they've come up with a conspiracy theory that was actually the Federation that launched the asteroid as a means of, or rather a justification to invade Klandathu.
00:40:07
Speaker
Because at the beginning, you see this. They've got orbital defenses, so they've got huge cannons orbiting the Earth, and you see an asteroid coming towards the Earth, and they shoot it down. And that's what people were saying. They're like, there's no way that this asteroid got passed.
00:40:26
Speaker
the cannons and the defenses so therefore it's an inside you know that kind of thing I don't know I did feel as if that was kind of funny I thought that was like a really interesting take it's like maybe Paul Verhoeven didn't like think about it maybe he did I don't know but
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah, it was just like an interesting way of thinking of,
Critique of Military Tactics
00:40:45
Speaker
again, the idea that this is like a very militaristic society that is just focused on expansion. And for all you Trekkies out there, it's a lot like the Terran Federation. Don't worry, I'll get you to watch Star Trek eventually, Adam.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's basically in Star Trek there's like a mirror universe where it's like everything's kind of the o- well obviously mirror universe but it's like everything's the opposite when instead of like the United Federation where it's like you know a utopia and everyone's working together it's like everyone's like cut through it.
00:41:28
Speaker
I really want the meteorite and the asteroid thing to be true, that I really want that to be true because I think it makes the most sense.
00:41:38
Speaker
As you say, it's really thematically appropriate for this society that has built itself on war. It needs to justify its existence. It needs to create an external enemy as a reason to hold up its ideals and to support the military industrial complex and to like the justification for expansion. So it makes the most sense.
00:41:59
Speaker
And I kind of wish the film had lent more into it. And again, this may be, again, like, as we, as you said, like, this might have been Paul Verhoeven's, like, might have had this idea, but he's just dropping enough, like, small breadcrumbs there for people to pick up on. And I like that, but I kind of wish as well it had been pushed a bit more.
00:42:18
Speaker
because it makes the most sense as you say like it makes the most sense and I actually quite like that you can look at this film from a different perspective as the bugs rather than the bugs being this like you know aggressive like enemy that should be exterminated you know as the film kind of portrays them we could actually look at them from like everything is they're actually just like minding their own business and it's humans are the humans are the bad ones in humans are the aggressors so I kind of wish it had been pushed a little bit more because I think it makes just I think it's such a I love the idea and I think it just makes the most sense for what the
00:42:47
Speaker
themes of this film. But that's the thing though, it's like the interesting thing about it is it differs from a lot of sci-fi films because you know how in a lot of sci-fi films there's always like the one spaceship that comes or there's that first encounter you know. I mean don't get me wrong they have talked about the bugs and having like an encounter like in one of the news reels they actually talk about like Mormon settlers trying to settle on a bug planet
00:43:13
Speaker
spoilers it does not go well for them. Again as you said it's like us kind of or not us being you know humanity like encroaching on their territory as it were where there really shouldn't be and it's not like all of a sudden there's a huge spaceship above like Paris or London or you know New York or anything like that it's not the traditional sense of like an invasion you know like don't get me wrong in later films they kind of play about with that for better or worse but
00:43:41
Speaker
yeah it's like more or less we are portrayed as the aggressors and you know it's like all it took was like one meteor for everyone to get up in arms and something I do like as well is although they film like the initial invasion because they're like very overconfident
00:43:57
Speaker
Because that's what they say at the beginning. During the invasion of Klandathu, which again is the home planet of the bugs, they say, oh, don't worry about the bombardment from below. Intelligence says it's just going to be random and light, or the bugs are going to be pushovers. They're so confident that they actually send down a cameraman.
00:44:15
Speaker
And that is something that they have done in real world wars, where you do get someone on the front lines filming all of this going on. I think, maybe not an apt comparison, but if you take the First World War, for example, and you see
00:44:31
Speaker
That's another word that they thought, oh, this is gonna be, you know, a glorious battle, it's gonna be, you know, a victory for the propaganda papers, and then two seconds later, yeah, they're like, yeah, better not show this footage to anyone. The only difference being, of course, in World War One, they could be a bit more selective about showing who saw this, whereas in this, they basically livestream it, which I get annoyed at because I think sometimes my computer can't even handle livestreaming, and I'm on the Earth!
00:45:00
Speaker
When I was there like, weighing Clondato and they're like, oh yeah, we were just transmitting this from over here. And it's like, that is bull and you know it Paul Verrillis.
00:45:10
Speaker
Apparently in like over 100 years, yeah, that's the technology we're going to get. Interesting of our Twitch streams. The World War One comparison is really interesting, I think, and a really good one to make. Because like, if you look at like the tactics that the Federation are using, like they are very reminiscent of those like stereotypes, what we think of, of like First World War, where it's like mass, it's just ranks of like mass ranks of men just like
00:45:34
Speaker
Charging for this idea of like willpower will overcome like steel, you know and things like that It's very reminiscent especially like the early first kind of phase of the First World War where it's just just it's just like well It was in a massive humanity forward and that will overcome, you know, we don't need they don't need like artillery support or anything else even like the way the Federation ships are flying They're all like so
00:45:55
Speaker
tightly together. Oh, I hated that. I kept saying that. Just going straight forward. So like the minute one gets hit, it like crashes into the next one. It is. And that must have been a deliberate choice. I think that is a deliberate choice to kind of evoke images of that. And it's that idea, you know, it's like it's like the youth of humanity have been like, have been suckered into this, like, you know, this, this is military industrial complex and like sent into the virtual meat, not the virtual, the real meat grinder, you know, to be like chewed up and
00:46:22
Speaker
spat out basically, you know, in the pursuit of the aims of like a shadowy kind of, you know, nefarious elite. And so like, those that imagery there is like, it was just really bring up what I was like, because that's clearly, I think what it's meant to like, bring up just in the way that they like the attack and everything. And it was like, no, there's no real strategy or any kind of nuance. It's just like, land this mass of men and just a man and women and just charge, you know, with the disastrous results.
00:46:46
Speaker
do you know the ironic thing is I was just thinking back to the book there and in the books don't get me wrong like I feel as if they made like the right choice of just having one villain in this or when I say villain you know enemy let's say antagonist yeah like they only have one which is the arachnid in the books like I don't think
00:47:06
Speaker
as far as I remember, I don't think I got to that bit with the arachnids or anything but they do mention them early on but at the beginning they show you another action scene but instead they find another alien race that they call Skinny's who are like eight or nine foot tall aliens who have guns of their own and basically they use the blitzkrieg tactics so they go in, they blast a village, they blast everyone there and then they pull out again and they get extracted
00:47:35
Speaker
yeah it's kind of similar in this sense so because this is the thing we were laughing at the bit where like later on they invade another bug planet because it's weird i always thought when i was younger it never really picks up that it wasn't clandathu for the whole film because they invade clandathu to get their arses kicked
00:47:52
Speaker
And then it turns out they go to different planets to try and get a foothold in this galaxy. And there's a scene later on where you see them bombarding the alien planet or the bug planet with fighter jets and things. And I thought that was quite funny because I was like, why didn't they use them at the beginning?
00:48:12
Speaker
And again, as you said, I think it's probably a deliberate choice there. It's them saying, we have this technology. We do have the brains where we could have thought about this. We just didn't. Because again, it's like throwing all these men to the slaughterlinking. Yeah, this is going to be an easy pushover. And you know, like, this is going to be an easy victory. It's going to be a great propaganda piece. We're going to slap this in children's lunch boxes, you know. And yeah, they absolutely reap what they sow.
00:48:42
Speaker
in this instance. And it is quite, if you look at it from the sense of like, you know, a military casualty, it is quite horrific. You know, like millions of people dying and everything you think. Yeah, this is, this is really grim. And I would say it gets better, but I think from that point on it gets just a bit sillier. Like cooler, don't get me wrong, like really cool, but just very silly. Like you get this love triangle subplot going on between
00:49:12
Speaker
Rico, Carmen and a character we actually haven't touched on called Dizzy who is played by I think Deena Myers and she is she basically at the beginning and throughout the film she actually joins up as well she's kind of like a parallel to Rico in the sense that she joins up for him just as much as he joined up for Carmen and they get very close they get into a relationship and then spoilers she ends up dying
00:49:39
Speaker
In the book, Dizzy is in the book. They die at the beginning. You might be wondering why I said they die at the beginning. Spoilers, Dizzy is a man in the books. There is no, like, there's no, like, romance thing there. There's no... Paul was just like, yeah, we've got a person called Dizzy. Let's just throw them in, change them into a woman. And yeah, let's have this weird subplot about them getting together and everything else.
00:50:05
Speaker
I don't know. It's a weird choice. I don't know if it's a 90s sci-fi thing where they had to have a love interest there. Technically they've still got Carmen, but of course Carmen's still flying ships. Let's be fair, she's really non-existent.
00:50:22
Speaker
like once Rico comes back into the picture because the majority of the film does focus on Rico's journey as a kind of cocky self-absorbent like teenager quote-unquote teenager to you know his adulthood and you know joining the infantry and killing bugs as it were yeah she kind of comes up at the end and it's like oh yeah Carmen have I got about her and if you think that's bad Neil Patrick Harris sees even worse he pops up like
00:50:48
Speaker
Like after the first bit he like only pops up three times later on in the film. All those times in the Secret Service uniform, which were so fond of. He becomes Heil Patrick Harris. Pretty much like, you see it semi-jokingly but genuinely, as we said, the subtlety. It is a pure SS outfit. Oh yeah, it's 100% an SS outfit. There's no denying it. I think they just changed the insignia, really, and that's it.
00:51:17
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much. But of course, eventually Rico gets recruited into what becomes his teacher's platoon, or like his old high school teacher's platoon called, is it Radchak's, Roughnecks or something? I have his name up here and I'm like, God, is Isaac or something like that?
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah I always go to see it and I'm like yeah I'm like oh but I'm so sorry. The Roughnecks which actually did have a CGI spin-off but let's not get into it. And yeah you basically get to see like the life of the mobile infantry and like other planets and things and them having the upper hand somewhat and yeah that's when it kind of gets a bit cartoony.
00:52:01
Speaker
when you've got them doing flips on this giant beetle that can shoot fire, which, don't get me wrong, is cool. It is really cool, the
Special Effects and Battle Scenes
00:52:11
Speaker
designs and things. This is actually something I haven't brought up yet, but see the effects in this film? My god, how much do they hold up?
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah, they're really good, actually. They really do hold up. There's none that I can think of. There might be a couple, but there's none that springs to my mind that much. They actually look really, really good. And as you said, they do actually hold up. No, they are. I mean, the bugs especially. The bugs are absolutely fantastic. Some of them were actually physical models. And obviously for the bigger scenes, they had CGI ones. But they actually made actual models for the bugs.
00:52:43
Speaker
and then they're just so impressive. They are just utterly, you know, because see when you look, don't get me wrong, like not all the CGI holds up but see considering this film was made in like the 90s. It is amazing how it looks better than some films that you see nowadays where it's like the really awful CGI where you're like yeah you two aren't in the same room and obviously like not all the bugs are like models but for the ones that are like it's it's fantastic.
00:53:10
Speaker
I have a soft spot for that kind of thing but of course that leads into the quite possibly one of the best scenes of this film when they have to hold out in the fort. It is a fantastic scene. It's basically they get a distress call and then they realise, uh oh, it's a trap and they have to hold out until their escape arrives and oh it is just fantastic. Lots of people die, don't get me wrong. I would not want to be part of that battle but
00:53:37
Speaker
Oh god. No, it is brutal, wasn't it? Yeah, it is brutal, but as you said, it is like a very tense, and you really get the sense of being this desperate stand, trying to hold that for as long as possible until they get rescued. It is really well done.
00:53:52
Speaker
Most of them get out. I'm saying that laughing because I know the teacher ends up getting these legs chopped off by a bug under the sand. Dizzy gets stabbed through the chest and we get the very heroic and dramatic
00:54:07
Speaker
Oh, Rico, I always loved... That's it. At least I had you. Yeah, it's like... Mero do, dizzy. Mero do. Yeah, you were literally just introduced into this as a love interest, weren't you? I mean, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say she's entirely... I don't want to say useless, that's the wrong word, but you know what I mean? She's not just there as I can do for the most part, although there are like one or two scenes where, yeah, they're just like, oh yeah, dizzy takes her top off in this scene, you're like, uh, 90's sci-fi, why?
00:54:37
Speaker
It doesn't help that literally it's like, so the night before the Roughnecks go to this fort, Rico and Dizzy have sex and it's literally like, alright well you've had sex now with the main character, I guess that's your arc pretty much done then, I guess we can kill you off now. It doesn't help that that's kind of the end result, you know, it's like next day and Dizzy done. Yeah but what's worse, that are being serenaded by Gary Busey on his future violin.
00:55:05
Speaker
how they're still in a romantic mood after that i don't know because that would put me off straight i've been a bit like poor cold water on any emotion oh i don't know i don't know i was like oh my god
00:55:21
Speaker
It's like, I mean, I wasn't really in the mood before, but that green violin, I mean, my God. That shocked off of her. He honestly does, he looks like... do you remember that scene in Home Alone where I think it's Marv gets electrocuted and he's got the Bart Simpson here after?
00:55:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's what would happen if Bart Simpson joined the mobile infantry. He indeed had a count and a lot of bugs to deal with but that's beside the point. Before we go into the ending, one of the weird scenes is when they have a funeral for Dizzy and then they just shoot her out into space and that is something common in sci-fi because they did this in the Wrath of Khan for example in Star Trek where you get the teary scene of Captain Kirk saying like of all the people I met he was the most human and I was joking about
00:56:08
Speaker
I was joking to you about this like of all the women I met she was the most acting word of them all you know compared to Carmen who's just like oh Rico ah help me
00:56:25
Speaker
Ms.
Film's Ending and Humor
00:56:26
Speaker
Richards, please. Nah, jokes aside, after that point, I feel as if the film just kind of battles towards the ending, you know? Like, it's not a clean ending, if you know? Like, what did you feel about the ending? Yeah, like, it kind of does feel like they're, like, trying to grasp onto something to be like a big point. It's like...
00:56:43
Speaker
Oh, right. Okay. The brain bug. So there's like this. When they go to the outpost, they find out that this bug has been like sucking the brains out of how people to gain knowledge. So they're like, all right, okay, this is the end. We need to go. We need to go find this brain bug. And that's Neil Patrick Harris who steps his way into the Puerto Rico in charge of the Roughnecks and sends them back onto the planet to capture this bug. And it does just kind of at the same time, like a Carmen ship happens to get like shot down and she gets captured by the brain bug. So it does just kind of feel like they're like, right, we need something to resolve all these.
00:57:12
Speaker
bring everybody back together again and they kind of settled on this like on this brain bug so yeah it does it does feel a bit like oh okay i'm going with this do you remember what the planet was called planet p how could i forget which i wouldn't mind as much except the fact that Neil Patrick Harris literally turned around with a straight face and says we're going back to pee and i'm like is
00:57:36
Speaker
I'm an adult, but that tickled my funny bone. I was like, how can you say that with a straight, who wrote that in the script and said, we're going back to pee as if it's like this drama. I honestly, I think that was a part, that was on purpose. Do you know? I can't believe it.
00:57:51
Speaker
And then at the end there's a weird scene where it's like the Roughnecks are going to, like all of them, all the mobile infantry are mobilized and they're trying to find the brain bug. But there's like one scene where Johnny like stops and he turns round and he's like, oh Carmen must be alive and somehow he knows that she's there. And then it's revealed later that Patrick Harris gave him like psychic coordinates to find her. But then he turned round and he's like, oh that would use speaking to me.
00:58:18
Speaker
And I was kind of like, what? I feel as if the sound of Zingai kind of passed out after the Klandati drop and was just like, yeah, no, I didn't edit any old Patrick Harris talking to him or even a whisper or anything saying, you know,
00:58:38
Speaker
There was nothing like that, and you're just assume, oh yeah, turns out he was in his head all along, and you're like, okay, fair enough. It's like, there it is. Yeah, it feels as if they kind of rushed through it, and it's like, oh no, we've got to save Carmen. Yep, we get Carmen out, now we've, you know, captured the brain bug, it's afraid, woo!
00:58:58
Speaker
join the mobile infantry and then that's it. It kind of ends, I think, again. Don't get me wrong, I do like the end end where they show one last newsreel and again it's like this propaganda of, you know, like the mobile infantry and the fleet like mobilising and shooting out and showing this kind of display of strength, you know, saying things like, we need soldiers like you and you. And then you get the iconic kind of, come on you apes, you wanna live forever?
00:59:24
Speaker
which, unfortunately, a bit like what happened with Star Wars, where, you know lines like, oh I have a bad feeling about this, and things like that, it kinda gets bastardised, where everybody says it at some point, or, well, like, that kinda happens in the later films, because the reason Rico says it is because his teacher said it to him, and they've got their guns there, and he goes, come on you apes, you wanna live forever? Which is how the book actually starts. And also, fun fact about that,
00:59:52
Speaker
turns out there are like see the teacher in this film apparently he was like two separate characters in the book so the teacher was a guy called mr du Bois and who is like really well regarded as this like war hero and everything and oh he's amazing so it's like a cross between him and Rajchek
01:00:13
Speaker
I hope I'm saying that right, if not apologies. But the guy in the film, you know, he's like a separate sergeant, but for some reason they just like mashed the two characters together. Again, why? I'm not a hundred percent sure, but it's the same really isn't it? It's just like, yeah, let's just mash them together and hope for the best.
01:00:29
Speaker
It's a little bit of a parody of, I don't know if you've heard of the film or the book, a little quiet on the Western front. Oh, yeah. The World War One, which is basically about like these German youths who get like swept up in like the war, either of the First World War, you go off fighting, basically most of them die.
01:00:45
Speaker
You know, it's like their disillusionment and like their teacher is such an important character at the beginning who like it does the exact same thing basically as Chet does and this one is like, you know, imbues them with this like sense of patriotism and you need to fight, you know, like to be like a man and to be like, you know, like in the case of like a German citizen, you know, you need to fight and, you know, do your bit for the fatherland.
01:01:07
Speaker
So it's kind of a play on that in a way, and I guess for brevity and maybe for simplicity for the audience, they just felt like rolling that character into the two characters together. I think it works. I think for this film it kind of works in a way, and it probably was a better idea just to combine those two characters into one that kind
Adaptation Choices
01:01:25
Speaker
of makes sense.
01:01:25
Speaker
No, no, absolutely, because I don't know if they would have had time. But the same with like Sergeant Zinn as well, you know, like the kind of subtleties I think are lost from the book. Well, at least the beginning, or rather the first half of the book definitely, compared to the first half of the film, there is like a lot of small things that are lost. I can kind of understand why they were taken out, you know, for the sake of like getting the plot going. But then it almost feels as if at the very end it just ends.
01:01:52
Speaker
you know like he knew he had to have like this big bombastic ending but at the same time it's just like oh yeah we found the brain bug and it's not even Johnny who finds a brain bug it's like Zim who actually I honestly never remembered this because I remember watching this when I was younger and forgetting who Sergeant Zim
01:02:09
Speaker
was. So when he turned up at the end I was like who's that? Why they celebrate this random guy? And yeah it turns out because he does ask to be sent away to like Kondathu to fight the bugs and his superior officer says no unless you like go back down to the role of private you're not allowed to rejoin and of course that leads into him becoming you know a private again just to serve his like you know the Federation and this kind of sense of duty and everything.
01:02:39
Speaker
I think, again, it's really interesting ideas like that that I feel as if, especially at the time when this film came out, this film definitely, as you said, was panned by a lot of people.
Satire Misinterpretation
01:02:51
Speaker
That it was just this silly film that was promoting fascism as this great thing. And it really doesn't, does it? No.
01:03:00
Speaker
I think what I find so fascinating about the end of this film is like the utter lack of character development you would almost expect in this film. So Rico who starts off as very starry eyed and like naive and it's like oh yes you know I'm gonna join the mobile infantry and like earn my way as a man and like a citizen.
01:03:16
Speaker
and stuff and you almost expect the film especially as the film was a satire you almost expect the film to be like his journey to like peering behind the curtain you know and seeing like the hypocrisy and seeing the fact that the generation of this society and that you know it's just it's so militarized it's just sending these young people just to die
01:03:34
Speaker
for like no reason for the benefit of others but that doesn't happen at all like he's still he's just as like dariy and like blindly loyal to the federation at the end as he in fact he's more of that than he is actually at the beginning where the fact is you know as you say he joined because like you know because he was in love with this girl he joined up
01:03:53
Speaker
but then like almost his love transfers from his love from Carmen transfers into a love of the Federation and everything and what this film actually plays like you could actually believe that this film was a propaganda film for this universe so like you know like the Federation made this as a propaganda film to like almost like something like the films used to get during like the second world war and stuff at the time where it's like very kind of simple characters
01:04:18
Speaker
And it's like a tale of good versus evil, you know, and it's meant to like inspire, like, you know, it's meant to inspire the population to support the war effort and everything and show that we're on we're on the side of right here. It almost feels like Starship Troopers could be a film for that universe, you know, and like, like, that's how it kind of is bookended by two of these, like, as you said, two propaganda sections.
01:04:38
Speaker
Basically, it is like, you know, for the glory of the Federation and everything. And I just thought that's so fascinating that there's no like, there's no none of that peering behind the curtain and seeing like the hypocrisy and the real like evil that's clearly at the heart of the Federation at all. It's just like, no, you know, like it's all for the mobile infantry and for the Federation and, you know, humankind. I find that fascinating.
01:04:59
Speaker
there's even a line like Z at Dizzy's funeral where Neil Patrick Harris comes up to him. It's something that is a scene that really doesn't sit right with me because again it kind of goes into this idea of right we've only got a couple more minutes let's wrap up the film but it's when Neil basically like berates them you know saying because the like intelligence service knew there was a brain bug down there but they didn't bother warning the mobile infantry
01:05:25
Speaker
And, you know, this is like his friend, like his high school friend. And, you know, he didn't warn him that he was potentially like going to his death. And Rico's only reaction to this is it's basically something along the lines of he says, didn't you hear the mobile infantry is best for that or something? That's what we do. Yeah, that's what we do best. Yeah. And it's like it's just such a wooden response. You think is this what he feels? Is this what was going on here?
01:05:53
Speaker
It's just as bizarre. It just seems like a strange choice for the script. I wouldn't even put this in Caspar Van Dien or any of the other actors in the scene. It seems like a weird response for the character to have against a childhood friend. It's like me finding out you sent me. It's a bug-filled planet where they've got chess playing
01:06:16
Speaker
I don't know, answer or something. And then you're just like, well, wake up, this is what we do. And you're like, what the hell? I mean, it's my job, but what the hell? You know, but there's none of that. There's no outrage or it just seems like robots. Like, OK, that is my duty. And maybe that's the point. Maybe you could extend that and say, oh, that's the point of it. That he's so indoctrinated that he thinks, OK, even though this
Themes of Loyalty and Indoctrination
01:06:43
Speaker
is my role.
01:06:43
Speaker
yeah and despite my you know attachments to this person as a childhood friend my attach as you said my attachment to the federation is even larger than like friendships or any acquaintances you know maybe that's what he was going for but on the surface level just seems a bit weird i mean would you say
01:07:03
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think it is. Again, maybe I'm giving Verhoeven too much credit here, but I think it is exactly that thing, as you said, of an indoctrination thing. I think it's this satire of showing how war dehumanizes people and they lose a sense of all that's left is the mission and the unit and everything and what you're fighting for and everything.
01:07:26
Speaker
I think it is that way of showing how indoctrinated the youth of this world have become. But the fact that their whole life seems to be revolved around prioritization of military service and showing that might is right and violence is the way to solve problems. And it's even that way as well. They get really no reward. Rico gets promoted, but there's really no reward for all the stuff he does. The reward that he gets is the chance to participate in another battle.
01:07:52
Speaker
Like, you know, so he goes through one like harrowing, like, you know, like close run battle and then your reward is to get thrown into another, like, you know, life of death situation. And again, that almost seems like critique of like what war is, you know, at the end of the day, like there is no reward. At the end of the day, the reward is that you live another day to like put your life on the line again. So.
01:08:12
Speaker
I'm tempted to say that I would lean towards, I think that's the point Verhoeven is making here just because I think it kind of fits in with the criticism and like satirism of this film. Again, I may be too much credit, but that's the way I'd be tempted to lean towards.
01:08:27
Speaker
the one thing I would point out is the rolling promotions that Rico gets in this film. Like literally someone, I think it's a sergeant or something, I think it's a staff sergeant gets killed by like a flying bug and he's commander's just like oh yeah by the way you're staff sergeant now and then later on it's like oh yeah that other person died you're ahead of the roughnecks oh you're you know it's like all I'm saying is in civilized society if that's the way it worked
01:08:57
Speaker
There would be a lot less people coming into work to be like, do we have to kill our boss to climb up the ladder? That's the way it seems to keep going, that one person dies and they fall feet first. And again, as she said, I don't know if that's a reflection of the duty because he's sticking with it and everything.
01:09:19
Speaker
But that's the thing though, you're right, he doesn't get many rewards other than being like this, again, hero of the Federation, which is another thing we'll come onto in another episode. But one thing I do want to bring up, and this is the final time I'll say it,
01:09:37
Speaker
a comparison between the book and the film in the book when Rico goes to join. Basically his family warns him, you know, and says don't do it. It's really not worth it. And of course he's absolutely smitten with Carmen and him and Neo Patrick Harris's character, Caro. That's it. Caro and Rico go to the station.
01:09:58
Speaker
or the recruitment place and they're basically told like very by a very weary guy listen if you're serious about this then go for it we will find like any position for you you could be a dish cleaner on the road you're young you know the flagship or you know you could be like he doesn't reference it directly but you know i mean like
01:10:18
Speaker
he comes up with all these menial jobs that you could actually do in the Federation but at the same time in the book there is a 40-hour cooling off period which I find quite interesting because that to me personally I don't know about you but if this was supposed to be like a you know a fascist society where they're saying you know oh you have to you know join and it's gonna be great like I really didn't get unless I've read it wrong but
01:10:42
Speaker
I did not get that impression from, you know, the instructor in the book. Not the instructor, but the recruiter who is like, listen, there's 40 hours. You can go away, talk to your family, see your goodbyes and decide whether or not you still want to join up. And of course, because of that, like in the next chapter, Rico says to his parents and his parents basically don't talk to him.
01:11:03
Speaker
or rather his dad doesn't talk to him and just like completely blanks him and that shows like the severity of it you know it shows that these actions are having consequences and even the military is saying listen we don't want you unless you're a hundred percent sure
01:11:20
Speaker
As long as you're not under the influence of anything, feel free, you know, fill your boots. But in the film, it comes across as like an angsty teen drama, you know, where it's like his dad saying, if you'll join the mobile infantry, you're cut off, young man. And he goes over and as we've discussed, you know, he comes across this comical guy with no legs who's like, oh, the mobile infantry made me the man I am today. And then that's it, you know, it's like played for jokes. So I get
01:11:48
Speaker
Paul Verhoeven was trying to go for that satire of fascism but I feel as if in some points like I think the way he does it fits with the tone of the film but kind of as an adaptation it doesn't really mesh well with what the big because I know obviously he said he hated it but this is literally like in the first couple of chapters so it's quite surprising to see that he didn't really take kind of nuances like that on board and again maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm just reading that upside down
01:12:16
Speaker
As a final point though, what are your closing thoughts over
Evolving Opinions on the Film
01:12:20
Speaker
the film? It's an interesting film. So I first watched this film, I think I was in my mid teens, I quite remember how old I was. Sometime around then I watched this film and I honestly hated it. I thought it was terrible. The acting is wooden, it's just dumb, there's nothing going on and I really hated it.
01:12:39
Speaker
And it wasn't until I started to know you and I think we started talking about it and I heard that you really liked it and I thought, really?
01:12:48
Speaker
And then like, you know, I saw a little bit more about it and I was like, maybe there's actually a lot more going on with this film than I actually realized at the time. And then watching it again, I don't love this film, but I think it's kind of brilliant. Like, I actually think it's a really, really, it's both a really loud and dumb film, but at the same time it's a really clever satire, I think.
01:13:10
Speaker
And I think it makes a really good comparison to another one of Verhoeven's films, that's Showgirls, which is a film about this woman who moves to Las Vegas and basically becomes a stripper and then kind of finds herself in the kind of high-end Las Vegas entertainment sector. And the comparison is basically like her lifestyle is no different. It's still just like crass sexual objectivism and everything. And that film, again, is a kind of satire, but
01:13:38
Speaker
The difference is I really dislike Showgirls strongly. I really do not like it. And I actually really like this film. And they're both satires, but I think this works as a satire in a way that I don't think Showgirls does. Because as much as Showgirls is satirizing the sexual objectification of women and everything in society, it still spends most of the film sexually objectifying.
01:14:01
Speaker
It's like, you know, the female characters. So I just I think it just doesn't work. But this one really does. And I think it's a fascinating critique of, like I said, like the military industrial complex, like jingoistic, like foreign policy and a culture that like puts so much emphasis on like violence as being like the answer to problems and the fact that white is right. And I just think it's it's such a fascinating work.
01:14:26
Speaker
And I think it's one that you really should watch more than once, because I don't think, I certainly didn't get it at all when I first watched it. And I think things like the wooden act, because the acting is so wooden for all the characters, they're all one-dimensional. There's really good growth. But it works for this film because of what this film is about. It's about showing dehumanization of people and people so indoctrinated that all they believe is this one thing, and they don't have personalities and stuff. It's all about the glorification of whatever it is.
01:14:55
Speaker
the Federation in this case. So again, it's an odd film that I love, and I would probably rate it as one of my favorites. I probably prefer some of Rehoven's other work, like Robocop or Little Recall, but I still think this is a really, really good film. I think it's really worth watching. But honestly, a lot of the stuff this film is talking about is still relevant, and maybe even more relevant today.
Modern Relevance of the Film
01:15:14
Speaker
I mean, that's what was written up on that because of a lot of, you know, like a lot of world events that came after this film, like The War on Terror and, you know, let's face it, you could pick any name of an unjustified war out of that. You can make comparisons to this film where it's just like a bunch of young men and women going, you know, throwing them out there and just, as you said, and as the film says, going into the meat grinder of
01:15:41
Speaker
just really warfare and I think that's why it's so popular now. It's definitely a retrospective film. It's not a film that again as you said like I remember the first time I watched it and really not enjoying it and I have to admit one of my reasons was trivial because I remember seeing this scene where they had remember they had the lasers for the like training exercise so like shooting each other with these laser guns and it was like oh
01:16:07
Speaker
Oh cool, laser guns. And you know, later on they just had like normal boring guns. They were like, aww man. You know like, it was like, oh what is this all about? It's about bugs. And you know, I thought it was an okay film. And I don't know, there's just certain aspects of it that I really like.
01:16:23
Speaker
or rather I think that are really well done, whether especially the action, the effects. From a technical standpoint this film's fantastic, personally. I mean I'm not saying, again, I'm not saying like, oh it's Oscar worthy, you know, or it deserves to be like one of the top 10 satires of all time because it wouldn't go that far. But at the same time it brings up a lot of interesting questions.
01:16:46
Speaker
And I think one of the reasons that it's caught so much controversy is because, you know, it's like stemming from the book of the same name, which has completely different, well not completely different themes, but completely different like objectives and settings and things like that.
01:17:04
Speaker
And it's just a shame. It is kind of anchored to the book, because if it was his own thing, I think maybe then it would have taken its own identity rather than kind of having the book as like a shackle, you know, to be like, oh Starship Trippers is good, but what about the book?
Film vs. Book: Unique Identity
01:17:21
Speaker
You know, and you're like, ah, yeah.
01:17:24
Speaker
I mean, it is a good film. I really enjoy it. Like, I enjoy it more now because I know people who really hate this film because they've read the book first and it is definitely a Marmite film. It's either you love this film or maybe I wouldn't go that far but either you like it enough or you just absolutely hate it and can't stand it. It's definitely one, as you said, it's definitely one you have to go back and kind of watch it and things and I wouldn't say the satire's like, deep. I mean,
01:17:52
Speaker
As we saw, you've literally got Neil Patrick Harris in a SS uniform. Like as soon as he walks in you're like, okay, this is the film we're watching. But at the same time, it's a fun romp. If you watch it as an action film, it's great. I love it. It's absolutely fantastic. If you're watching it as an adaptation of the book, probably not as good as it still loses a couple of those essential things from the book.
01:18:16
Speaker
I think the thing that makes it shine more than anything is the fact that compared to its subsequent sequels, which fortunately didn't get a theatrical release, it is just head and shoulders above anything that came after it.
01:18:32
Speaker
And it is weird, because I think the last film for this series was in like 2017, maybe? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, where it was like... So what they've started doing now is they've started doing CGI
Sequels and Future Discussions
01:18:43
Speaker
films. So they've already brought it out too, and Caspar Van Dien still does Rico, which I thought was pretty neat. He still does The Voice. Yeah, it's nice.
01:18:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's quite nice he's got a role. He could just be like, do you want to voice Johnny Ricco? Do I? So that's kind of cool. I do like that. The only film he actually isn't in is the second one, which again, the sequels are going to be ones that we will talk about in a future Chatsanami episode because we could rip them apart for ages.
01:19:11
Speaker
At the end of the day, Starship Troopers is the head and shoulders above all of these films. The second and third one, fourth and fifth, they genuinely don't hold a candle to the first one. I've heard a lot of people say the fourth one was as good as this, if not better. Spoilers for the next review, but I'd disagree. Would you say that?
01:19:30
Speaker
If you view it, maybe it's just a pure action film, maybe fair. But the first one is so much more than an action film as well. As we said, there's so much other stuff going on. If it was happening in the fourth film, I completely missed it. No, they're not. I don't want to say people don't know. People who say that aren't. So what you're saying is this film is not just a pretty face then? No, it's a pretty face, but it's also got a brain. Yes.
01:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's the perfect summary.
Encouragement to Rewatch
01:20:03
Speaker
Starship Troopers, it's not just the pretty face. Now there's some like 1950s propaganda for you.
01:20:10
Speaker
And speaking of propaganda, thank you Adam for joining on this episode. It's always a pleasure talking about Starship Troopers. No, thank you. Well, thank you first of all for having me on the episode. Thank you as well for getting me to rewatch this and actually helping me to appreciate this film in a way that I don't think I would have ever probably watched it again if I hadn't met you. So thank you on both counts. You're more than welcome. And I apologize for getting you to watch the sequels. That's one thing I apologize for. You've got some apologies to do for that.
01:20:39
Speaker
i'll apologize in the next episode okay i'm so sorry honestly like my kind of closing remark could be if you feel look warm about this film like when you first saw it go back and watch it as long as you're into like action sci-fi films and you don't mind a bit of gold and maybe some minor frontal nudity
01:21:01
Speaker
Boy, I'm really selling this film, aren't I? You know, like, genuinely, if you're kind of not put off by that. Give it another watch. I'm not promising that it's going to be like the satire of the century, because it really isn't, but it's not as bad, I think, as a lot of people criticise it to be, especially when it came out. Like, I think it's unfairly criticised, especially compared to some of the rubbish that came out after it, which we will, as I said, we will get to those. Yeah.
01:21:26
Speaker
Give it a watch, as the Rolex salesman said. Give it a watch. On that note, thank you all so, so much for joining us tonight.
Additional Content and Platforms
01:21:36
Speaker
You can check out more Chatsunami episodes on Anchor, Spotify, YouTube as well, and indeed all good podcast distributors. So please feel free to check us out there.
01:21:45
Speaker
If you want to check out more of our gaming content, you can check out our Let's Play series called T-Posing over on YouTube at Satsanami42, where we play a host of games like Heavy Range, GTA, Warzone, Breath of the Wild, you know, a whole selection, isn't it? It's like an Argos catalogue of games. A smorgasbord. A smorgasbord. I was going to say it and I thought, oh, I better not, but thank you.
01:22:11
Speaker
I'll never possibly say that word alone. Oh, smorgasbord. Yeah, that's such a good word, isn't it? That's the challenge after you listen to this podcast episode. Try and find a way to put in the word smorgasbord into a sentence when you're talking to someone. And yeah, if you want to check out more of my content personally, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, and of course Twitch under the name Satsanami42. And without any further ado, stay safe.
01:22:38
Speaker
Stay awesome, most importantly stay hydrated and yes, would you like to know more? Bye guys. Bye bye.