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True Crime Bonus - Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders with Julia Cowley of The Consult podcast and Allison Dickson of Vintage Villains (Part 3 of 3)
505 Plays2 months ago
We wrap our episodes on the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders with former FBI Profiler Julia Cowley, the host of The Consult podcast. In this episode, Julia gives a consult like FBI's behavioral analysis unit would for investigators and Allison Dickson of the Vintage Villains podcast and I share our theories.
Special thanks to Jessica Olive Cash of Just the Facts True Crime Research for research on the series:
To listen to The Consult podcast:
The Consult: Real FBI Profilers (truecrimeconsult.com)
To listen to Vintage Villains:
https://vintagevillains.buzzsprout.com/
Check out the Silver Linings Handbook website at:
https://silverliningshandbook.com/
Check out our Patreon to support the show at:
https://www.patreon.com/thesilverliningshandbook
Visit the Silver Linings Handbook store to support the podcast at:
https://www.bonfire.com/store/the-silver-linings-handbook-podcast-store/
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
This is the Silver Linings Handbook podcast. I'm Jason Blair. And this is the Vintage Villains podcast. I'm Alison Dixon. And I'm Julia Cowley from The Consult. And this is a true crime bonus episode.
00:00:28
Speaker
We're doing this on a YouTube live that's open to everyone. If you'd like to join more of our YouTube lives in the future, you can find them on the Silver Linings Handbook Patreon page. I've been trying to convince... ah Alison to bring her Patreon page back, but I've been unsuccessful so far. um Also, the consult has its own Patreon page and its Facebook group, The Unsubs, that I would recommend.
Guest Introduction: Julia Cowley's Background
00:00:55
Speaker
um So this is our third episode on the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. And today we are honored to have Julia Cowley.
00:01:05
Speaker
um Joining us, Julia is a retired FBI agent, former criminal profiler, and the host of the Consult podcast. um Julia spent 22 years in the FBI investigating violent crime, white collar crime, and civil rights. She spent more than a decade as an agent, as a member of the famed Behavioral Analysis Unit, or the BAU.
00:01:26
Speaker
Julia makes no bones about the fact that ah true crime is what led her toward forensic science and law enforcement. Prior to joining the FBI, Julia was a special agent and forensic scientist with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. She's got her bachelor's degree in chemistry from the University of Oregon and master's degree in forensic science from Georgia Washington University.
00:01:48
Speaker
I'm at the ba you julie did some really cool things including being the lead profiler on the east area rapist and original night stalker cases which you guys may know as the golden state serial killer case um she worked on the case of serial killer israel keys in the early stages of the long island serial killer case.
00:02:08
Speaker
She's also had other assignments in the FBI, as I mentioned, you know, you don't you don't get to automatically drop into the VAU investigating public corruption, white collar crime, um civil rights in the Boston division office of that. FBI. And as I mentioned, Julia also has her own podcast, ah The Consult, on my top list of podcasts that I truly enjoy, in part because The Consult really brings you to cases from a totally different perspective
00:02:40
Speaker
um you know It gives you an idea, a picture of the type of offender, just like FBI profilers would do, the type of offender um that would like likely have committed the crime. And one of the other things I love about the consult that I was telling Julie recently is that they don't just pick the popular cases. They also pick cases that are less heard of. And I think that having ah their voices come to those cases, not only you know raise public awareness about them, but it really hands, and this is one of the things I picked up on lately, it really hands the law enforcement officers who are working with you guys on those cases and those episodes, some great tools um to solve some of these lesser heard cases.
Understanding the Behavioral Analysis Unit
00:03:29
Speaker
And so for those of you guys who are not familiar, and since most of you guys are into true crime, I can't imagine there are many of you, the BAU is a highly competitive part of the already highly competitive investigations and operations section, which is in the critical incident response group.
00:03:46
Speaker
um It's been popularized by a lot of television shows like Mindhunter and Criminal Minds, also books and movies like Silence of the Lambs. um The BAU is well known also for its study of serial killers, its classification of offenders connected to certain types of crime scenes, and it's been a part of high profile investigations like the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, the investigation of the killing of John Bonet Ramsey, and the murder, two years ago, four college students at the University of Idaho.
The Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders Overview
00:04:19
Speaker
so With that, I will turn it over to Alison. That was so great. I love listening to that. so um so As a brief recap, because we've we're now on our third of three episodes. um In the first episode, we introduced you to the victims. We have nine-year-old Michelle Guse, eight-year-old Lori Farmer, and 10-year-old Denise Milner.
00:04:45
Speaker
ah So we told you about the strange events that happened on the night of the murders, including a man who was apparently stalking the campers and the counselors. ah We told you about a lot of the evidence that was found at the crime scene, as well as the caves that were discovered and the evidence of a flashlight and semen. ah We also walked you through the prior crimes of Jean Leroy Hart, who was the prime suspect ah a Cherokee and former high school football star, as well as some clues that he may have been in the area that night. We also discussed some of the tensions between some natives and other minorities and whites and law enforcement in this community, as well as a lot of the history around that. In the second episode, we also jumped ah
00:05:37
Speaker
We jumped into the manhunt and discussed some of the roles that of native culture, ah racial and and ah animosity in general, and the broader mistrust of law enforcement that played a role in the case, including this widespread belief that Hart was believed by many, if not most, in the community to have been railroaded.
00:06:00
Speaker
um We also discussed the pretrial hearing, um as well as Hart's sort of debonair appearance at the trial, um where they compared him to an English college professor. ah The jury, ah we discussed them and where the prosecution used ah a lot of their preemptory challenges to strike native jurors from the trial.
00:06:22
Speaker
um We also discussed the DNA testing after the trial in 1989, where results showed that the DNA could have belonged to one in 7,700 natives living in the U.S. and later DNA testing conducted that was inconclusive at the trial.
00:06:42
Speaker
um we that was inconclusive. We also discussed some post-trial events, including felony perjury trials for two of the people who suggested a Kansas convict named Bill Stevens, ah who the defense suggested was the killer. um And I recommend ah you check out those episodes. That is just the beginning of it.
00:07:03
Speaker
So what Alice and I are gonna do, we're gonna start with some questions, some of our own questions that we've thought of. um But as we talk to Julia, I want you guys to think of your own questions and drop them in the chat at any point. um I'll start to collect them and we will definitely ask Julia about those questions. And Julia, give you a chance to say something. All we've been doing is blabbing.
00:07:29
Speaker
That's okay. If you just want to start with the questions, I'm good with that. I mean, this is a very interesting case. And as you know those that listen to the consult know, I'm familiar with Oklahoma and the crimes in Oklahoma. And when I worked on Walika, I remember hearing about this case. And I think one investigator had said,
00:07:54
Speaker
that the Walika murders were like as big as the Girl Scout murders had been back in 1977. So um i'm I'm familiar and in it's Walika's not that far from Locust Grove.
00:08:09
Speaker
you know it's It's not like right next to each other, but you know it they're sort of close to one another, maybe a couple hours away. so um you know So I've heard about this case, and I did not work on it, but I heard about it when I was working Wellika, and I'd heard about it prior to that as well.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it is truly a fascinating um case in an interesting, you know, ah a lot like the Wuleka murders, I felt like in learning on the conflict about that case. And you've probably I've probably asked you like 30 questions about that case. um There were just a lot of and listening to those episodes, which I would recommend anybody go back to listen to. um There were a lot of things that I think for me are counterintuitive, naturally, that are really the realities of crime. And it was interesting to hear that, which sort of flows into my first question. um So, you know, we've got a we've got a crime scene where three girls are attacked in a tent in the middle of the night.
00:09:14
Speaker
Clearly, two of
Profiling the Offender's Behavior and Motives
00:09:15
Speaker
them were hit with some kind of blunt or sharp object inside the tent. um you know There was a semen stain on the pillowcase that was in the tent, but then there were semen stains after the girl's bodies removed 150 yards past the counselor's tent across the street into a tree that were also found um on their bodies. And I was just curious, from your perspective, what the crime scene tells you. um but And, you know, my next question is gonna, what does the victimology tell you? But what does the crime scene tell you um as and and somebody looking at the case, truly?
00:09:56
Speaker
So looking at this case, what I see initially is what I would call like a blitz attack. they're They're attacked, they're incapacitated quickly and very likely sexually assaulted at some point in the tent. Don't know for sure, but that all could have happened in the tent. We just don't know that. We know that there's evidence of a sexual assault, ah multiple sexual assaults. But then what I see is perhaps an attempt to clean up, which...
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, that you know you have all the the sheets taken the blood attempts to wipe up the blood That's on the on the floor of the tent, you know, that and this isn't a tent that's on the ground this is I think on wood planks of some sort is what it appeared in the crime scene photos and ah and to stuff all the evidence into these sleeping bags and and take it out and which I find sort of an absurd thought, you have, there's no way you're going to, hipe first of all, three girls are not where they're supposed to be. And there is no way you're going to clean up a crime scene like that and and dispose of all evidence. But sometimes when I see that, when I see this attempt to clean something up, I think about this person may be evidence conscious.
00:11:24
Speaker
they may have a criminal history, they may have a little bit of knowledge about evidence and trying to obliterate it of some sort. But ultimately, it's not successful. yeah the crime The crime was discovered almost immediately upon a counselor waking up. It wasn't like it was really that well hidden, but it was an a attempt to, I think, try to clean up the crime scene and and hide what was done to maybe. Prevent discovery, delay discovery of some sort to make it harder to to to from like a time perspective, make it maybe harder for them to find the girls, figure out what's going on.
00:12:08
Speaker
Because I've found that the issue kind of you're confusing the crime scene. And not only that, you were destroying forensic evidence by doing that as well. And of course, in 1977, we're not thinking about DNA at the time. yeah I'm sure offenders and and criminally savvy people knew what they can Type my blood they could determine different types of body fluids left But that we're not there was just not the precision that we can today to match Biological evidence to a person with the certainty that we can today So that's not necessarily a thought but the thought is I'm gonna clean this up. I'm gonna hide it I'm gonna delay it and to me that says okay this somebody who has some level of understanding of
00:12:58
Speaker
crime scene and crime scene processing and I would be saying I could be considering somebody who has been in trouble before with with the law um 100%, can't say that 100%, and I'm always very cautious with profiling. None of it is 100%, it never is, but this would be a consideration. So that's what I see when I initially looked at it. Yeah, it seemed to me too, like he wanted to have Denise, who was the eldest of the girls, separate, like the other two girls were in the sleeping bag and
00:13:34
Speaker
ah maybe maybe Denise could've walked out on her own volition with him or he you know had her with him and then the other two girls kind of slung. The only way I could maybe visualize it but it just seems like I could. Does it seem to you like a guy that didn't have really a plan before he went in there? Was it just a crime of opportunity? Did it look like an opportunistic?
00:13:56
Speaker
kind of a thing. I mean, given that it happened the night that the girls arrived at the camp, there wasn't much time to plan, but it was like, I just wonder. I think there was a ah plan. I do. But he may not have known exactly prior that what he was going to encounter I mean there is some evidence that there was looking in other tents and determining okay who's here who's there and so he may have picked this one not only because of the distance from the counselors and from the other tents but possibly because there are only three people in there
00:14:33
Speaker
And that made a little bit more manageable, but I think there was a plan and he had a plan to go in there and he executed it and it was fairly efficient. I mean, he I think he incapacitated them fairly quickly, which is what he intended to do. And then he was able to to carry out what his plan was. So.
00:14:52
Speaker
I think that there is there is a kind of a combination of somebody who had a plan but also had to deal with thinking on his feet at at the time because he didn't know for sure what he was going to encounter. But at some point he realized, okay, I've got three here. This is what I'm going to go in and do.
00:15:14
Speaker
And I see what you're saying, Allison, too. it does it does It does seem that Denise was the main focus, and it's very likely that the other two were just yeah I don't want to say obstacles, but could have been just, okay, they're here. I have to deal with them, witness elimination. But not only that, as an opportunist, the offender takes advantage of them as well and a sexually and sexually assaults them. But I do think his main interest, his main focus, and his main, you know, when we talk about victim selection, desirability, she was probably the one that fit the criteria the best for him at that time.
00:15:53
Speaker
brighter And that makes me think of something else, the different events that happened at the night or in the night, like the, um you know, the counselor seeing the dim light in the woods, putting her flashlight on it, and then the light going off and that happening repeatedly, the low guttural scream that was happening um behind the girl's camp and as the cancers walked to it, it stopped. And then there was that girl that was grabbed by her raincoat. That was another example. And I wonder,
00:16:22
Speaker
You know, it made me think like one. Is this offender just trying to taunt anyone, everyone? Because if you truly were trying to sneak around 100% surreptitiously, you probably would have like kept a little bit lower of a profile. So I wonder about that, um but also the girl with the raincoat I wonder about because while there were three girls killed.
00:16:47
Speaker
You know, it makes me wonder when he tried to grab her earlier, assuming he is the offender, was he really looking for just one target and everything everything else was an obstacle to that?
00:16:58
Speaker
um and whether he was spending that night sort of like scoping out what is the most isolated place, what's the best place to do this and have some false starts um along the way. to either I think that's very possible. it i I think he had a plan to go in and and attack somebody and took you know took advantage of the best opportunity after looking around.
00:17:22
Speaker
I think you know you bring up the low guttural sounds that were reported and that's really interesting because that's counterintuitive to somebody trying to be sneaky and that would be something I would be thinking is that something he cannot help.
00:17:38
Speaker
why would he Why would he do that if he's really going in, which I believe he was really going in to grab someone to sexually assault them and murder them, then why would he draw attention to himself like that? So I wonder, I would start thinking, is that some sort of habit that he cannot control?
00:17:59
Speaker
so like But also the other twist to that is that scene where the counselor has the sees the dim flashlight in the woods, she takes her flashlight and she points it toward it, then the light goes off. But while she's still looking, when she takes her flashlight away, it goes back on. like And then she points her light on it, it goes back on again, I mean, it goes back off again, same thing happens again, and then she books it. And I just think to myself,
00:18:29
Speaker
Like, after she shines the light on you the first time, and then you turn the light off, if you were truly trying to hide completely, you would just keep it off until she disappears. So why turn it back on, turn it back, you know what I mean? Like, are you trying to taunt these people? Yeah. That's sort of what I was thinking. Well, I mean, when you look at Ultimately, what he did, it's a sadistic crime. And as we've talked about before on our show, it doesn't just end with the crime itself. It doesn't just start and end with the crime itself. This is a part of an offender's personality. And if he if he can taunt people beforehand and scare them, there's a lot of joy at that of doing that. And
00:19:17
Speaker
It's almost like even though this isn't a home, he's almost, he's invading space and he's scaring people and there's, there is a lot of gratification and satisfaction that comes from that for somebody who enjoys hurting others. And so yes, I think that could very possibly be just a way to,
00:19:41
Speaker
really make the most out of what he's doing. and Just as like sometimes after the crimes, you see offenders communicate with victims or victims' families, prolonging it, prolonging their pain and suffering. They get a lot of enjoyment out of it. um That could very well be what those actions were all about.
00:20:01
Speaker
so that that if it's a sexually motivated sadistic crime, that or or sadistic crime, it may actually, the actual act, the act that the person is getting gratification, you know the part we focus on is the murder, but it may have actually begun long before.
00:20:19
Speaker
Absolutely. this Yeah, I mean, this is something this is, you know, these types of crimes are a fantasy based. And there's probably so much that just goes into this. And then here he has this opportunity to sneak around all night and scare people and look at them and invade their space and move in their space and that takes a certain personality, a certain type of person that's willing to do that. that and you know if you think about like
00:20:51
Speaker
I mean how how would it feel to just go into someone's house and they're they're there and you're sneaking around their house I mean that to us that would be something we would never consider doing it would be frightening it would be something weird right but yes it would just be weird but there you know there's these types of people they they enjoy that And they enjoy you know going through people's belongings and looking at them. And and so people say, well, why why did so why did they steal that? That has no value. It's it's not about financial.
00:21:25
Speaker
value to them. It's about, you know, it's about control. It's about, angelo that's a great example. Yeah. Yeah. i So I also think and Jessica brought this up in the chat was a really good point. And ah as far as sort of because as we're trying to suss out, was it a particular ah girl or set of girls? Or ah was it victim motivated? Or was it location motivated? Jessica brings up like The tent in this case was the most isolated of the tents and the most isolated wing of the camp. and i don't i can't I have a hard time finding that being like ah any you know coincidental. It's almost like this is the one that he could go in and also the tent that only the only ten had three girls in it rather than four.
00:22:12
Speaker
So I do I slightly disagree. I do not think it was the most isolated unit of the time. It was very isolated, though. I think it was the one closest to the caves and we're eager. Yeah. Wow. Oh, again, like, though, that still points to location, location, location. It was like the place that you would pick. Yeah, but it's not. There's definitely some practical considerations of choosing that 10. I think that has to be considered, whether it's only because it has only three people in it or because, as Jason said, it's closest to where the offender needed to escape to, it's furthest from the counselor. There's going to be a number of practical reasons for choosing that. I think
00:22:58
Speaker
When we look at the you and talk about the victimology, there's kind of a collective victimology here. They all sort of fit the same, although you might have a range of ages. You you really don't just have, okay, it was one of them specifically targeted. I think it i was a lot about the location and that came first in this particular case.
Victim Selection and Offender's Familiarity with Crime Scenes
00:23:24
Speaker
So the fact that it's a camp in a Girl Scouts camp as opposed to something else would be something that would be, you kind of look like you said, it it was it's sort of a collective victim.
00:23:35
Speaker
it it's It's, you know, in in terms of looking at victimology and when we have, you know, serial cases or we look at certain, you know, you are trying to see it. Was this, was there something very specific about this victim that was why they were chosen? And and looking at all of their victimology, I'm not sure that it's practical to try to just assess each and every one of their lives and why were these why were these three victims selected that night because You know, it would be important to know, well, did and any of them have any stalkers? You know, we'd want to know that. was there Were there any problems leading up prior to coming to camp that somebody would come out here and follow them and do something like this? Probably not. But that would be something we would want to know.
00:24:21
Speaker
And I think when you look at them, they all have really probably similar victimiles, particularly they're all at this camp. It's all their first night there. Some of them have never been to this camp before. It's very dark. It's very confusing. You wake up in the middle of the night and you're not in your own bed, especially at that age. You probably don't even know where you are at first. It takes you a while to adjust. So these are the things that I think make them vulnerable, all of them.
00:24:49
Speaker
so particularly all of the the campers there and some more vulnerable than others it is kind of interesting too that he the three of them had not been to this camp before i believe right correct so that that you know yeah denise and lori especially yeah i wasn't sure about michelle if you can and it's hard to know if he he would have known that or not i i don't know if that would be information that this offender would have been privy to, but that increases their risk a little bit just because they're unfamiliar with it. It's not something that an offender would necessarily know, but it makes it easier to attack them when they may not know where to go, they may not they may wake up and have no idea where they are and be confused and it's dark. I mean, I read that it just got pitch black there. It couldn't see anything.
00:25:43
Speaker
So that makes it pretty easy to just go in there and they would have no clue even if they heard something. Even if they woke up and that's is somebody in here, theyre they would be very confused right away. they This would not register with any of them immediately that they were in immediate danger.
00:26:02
Speaker
One of the things I was also wondering about, I don't know if you saw this um in the notes, but there was a note that Michelle Hoffman, who's one of the counselors who wrote over on the bus with them that several months before she had found a note that essentially said, this isn't word for word, but that four girls are gonna be murdered at the camp.
00:26:23
Speaker
And I wonder whether you know it may be connected to it. It may not be connected to the note was thrown out, but just sort of assuming that that yeah that that is actually from the offender. Would that tell you anything about the planning or the likely location that the person there is or are there any clues about how close this person would have been? Because I might imagine you'd have to be somewhat familiar with the camp already before that.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, you'd have to be very familiar with the camp, I would think. And you would have to, um this goes back to fantasy. If this truly was in fact written by the offender, this plan and idea was in his head months before.
00:27:05
Speaker
So this isn't somebody that just came upon the camp that night. This is somebody who's been around, who got close enough to be able to leave a note. but it Was it in a box of donuts or something? as I don't know if that's accurate, I think. i That's what they say. I think I saw that in a transcript or something. I saw it somewhere.
00:27:27
Speaker
But you may have to be pretty close to be able to do something like that and be familiar with the area, with the camp, with its schedule as well.
00:27:43
Speaker
who's going I had been curious. That was one of my earlier questions when um we were first going over this case was um it was clear somebody had been stalking the area before the girls arrived. There were counselors there and and everything as we were discussing the note. There were some flat cut off one of the tents. There were some other knife marks ah in the in the tent fabrics. um So they they knew somebody was around there. But I don't know if there was any way of knowing that there was a Girl Scout camp imminent, that there that it was on its way. I don't know if this was a publicly announced thing. Yeah. that was No, no, no. There were ads in the newspaper in the prior newspaper, the Tulsa World. And we know there were newspapers around. I mean, there were newspapers in the cave. You know, the newspaper was... know Another thing I was thinking based on what you're saying about all those prior things happening and what Julie is saying about the sadism to it afterwards in the cave, there's that note that says 77, 6, 7, what was it? Yeah, the improper written date.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I say properly. ah but Well, it was, yeah. the and In continent continental Europe, it is. So in 1977, 617, the killer was here. Bye bye fools.
00:29:04
Speaker
Yeah, bye-bye fools. Yeah, thank you. That seems like more taunting. and you know Because I was thinking about like somebody like the Long Island serial killer um who is believed to have called the victim's families. At this time, you don't have a cell phone to steal or something like that to call them, but there are all these things you can do to taunt.
00:29:26
Speaker
I taught people you know you can sort of presume they're eventually gonna find um the caves and i just wonder. Ooh, that's a good question. I see where you're going with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question. Well, I'm sort of wondering about the post-defense behavior and the taunting because I sort of, I think for some of these people, and I'll go back to the Israel Keys interview, the sadism never ends. It never ends. Like once Israel Keys was done with the sadism with his victims, he was applying that same sadism to the poor
00:30:03
Speaker
law enforcement investigators who are trying to um come. So I'm just curious what whether that tells you anything. Yeah, I mean, it is, like you said, taunting. And what I want to say is that not all serial killers or offenders like this one or Long Island serial killer do that.
Exploring the Offender's Risky Behavior and Potential Motivations
00:30:24
Speaker
that they're not that There are some high profile cases where we have seen that where offenders communicate, as I said. with yeah Right.
00:30:34
Speaker
right communicate with the public in some way. you So that's not unheard of or communicate with law enforcement and taunt law enforcement. So this would just be another way of doing that. I think knowing in in that would you'd have to know the area to know somebody is going to come across this someday.
00:30:54
Speaker
So in the risk associated with it, like there's a couple things in here that happened that I view is really risky. Like if the assault starts in the tent, that's a great place for the assault to end. And like you said, it may have been an attempt to cover up, but like,
00:31:08
Speaker
i think I would think a lot of offenders committing crimes, like you crit commit a crime and the first thing you're thinking about is how do I skedaddle out of here as fast as humanly possible, not how do I move three bodies in sleeping bags with evidence 150 yards or somewhere between 100 and 150 yards. And then I think about something like leaving those notes in the caves or other things like that. All you're doing is like, in in my mind,
00:31:39
Speaker
increasing the likelihood that you're gonna get caught, which makes me think that you have to have something driving you, something powerful driving you to do this. like yeah and And I had asked you before, and I know you're gonna bat this one down, but I had asked you whether maybe putting them in the sleeping bags and carrying them 150 yards away away from the bloody tent could have been undoing in in the sense that You know, sometimes when murders happen and and the offender may know or have a relationship or feel bad or guilt or remorse, they might throw a blanket over the body and cover it or other things like that. Now, on the other hand, so many things about this crime seem so brutal and sadistic, but I was curious, any any chance of undoing their being involved?
00:32:28
Speaker
Oh, I think I mentioned this to you earlier. I i don't really like the concept undoing. I know that's come up recently in another case. It's an iffy concept. it's And I wouldn't necessarily think or jump to the idea that because he's put two girls and then their bodies in a sleeping bag and dumped them in the woods, I wouldn't jump to that as undoing.
00:32:52
Speaker
Undoing is a result of like guilt and remorse. And when you see undoing, and I will tell you, i I have not personally worked on a case where I saw undoing. I've seen presentations from colleagues that have worked on cases and they usually involve parents. And what you see is that care is taken with the victim of some sort. I don't see any care here. So I don't really see these undoing.
00:33:20
Speaker
what i would tend to see, and as I has described earlier, whether you know you're moving things around or you're covering them with brush or trying to hide them, I see more of a practical consideration versus this psychological thing of undoing. I feel guilt and remorse. I'm trying to erase what I've done because I i just don't see that element of caring, which is sometimes how undoing will present itself. Like I said, i that is a ah very iffy kind of concept to me. and it's
00:33:51
Speaker
And it's not impossible for an offender who does these horrible things to maybe feel you know bad about themselves for doing this. i do make For example, i I think there are offenders that You know don't want to telegraph what they've done They they're just very different and maybe don't want to highlight what they've done the way other offenders who seem to relish in the notoriety and the taunting But that's not what I see here. I don't see undoing I see some practical considerations of just trying to hide things and move things around and confuse the issue and delay discovery yeah and and
00:34:36
Speaker
maybe even also get the added bonus of maybe creating a little bit more panic, right among the people. But one of the things that I found weird about the moving them and drop of the bodies is how much he left. He left the flashlight, took the murder weapon properly, um left the flashlight, left um ah The glasses one pair of glasses that have been stolen and so but I guess to be a serial killer does not mean you need to be meticulous or to be a killer oh yeah No way that could be he dropped it and in the dark he couldn't find it he was looking for it perhaps something
00:35:14
Speaker
I think he aspired to be an organized killer, but just couldn't quite get there. I mean, he's somewhat organized. I mean, I don't see anything here that tells me he doesn't have clear thought process. and Yeah. So there's some organization to it, but even the best laid plans can be interrupted. there's I mean, what you're dealing with is human element here and yeah and you're out in nature too and so he could have been surprised or interrupted in some way and left the area maybe he dropped things and couldn't find it in the darkness or there just could be a number of reasons why he just abandoned what maybe his original plan was or his ideal plan and that was abandoned
00:35:59
Speaker
i mean We see it all the time and we can't explain things in a scene because somebody has a plan going in and even the the most organized plan and the most calm cool collected offender can make mistakes and you know, depending on how perhaps a victim responds, I mean, there could be all sorts of things that go wrong for them.
00:36:29
Speaker
um I've i've seen ah've seen this come up in the chat a few minutes ago and it is one of the questions on the list and I'm curious about it as well in terms of the statistics and everything involved. um Given the racial elements of this case, we have a native suspect, we have and one African American girl and two white girls. um is there Is it fair to assume that you know a person in one race would just indiscriminately cross race victims this way? I mean, ah have you seen much of that or did they tend do killers tend to stick within their own um racial demographic? or
00:37:09
Speaker
Yes, they do. They, victims tend to choose their victims within the same demographics or just, you know, location, they're, they're close or they're available to them. And that tends to be victims that are similar to them. But I would never rule out somebody because the race wasn't the same. And in this case, I don't think that played a part in it at all. You had obviously a diverse group here. And I don't think that was a consideration for this offender. So I wouldn't say because the offender and the person arrested and, and
00:37:49
Speaker
um tried for this was Native, couldn't have done it because these victims weren't also Native. I would not um and make that assumption at all. But yeah, statistically, you know, if you have um a victim of one race, they're usually killed by somebody of the same race statistically. But again, I would never rule that out. I mean, in all of our reports, we always say the offender is most likely a white male, but you can't say that with certainty. um You know, even in, you know, there's a famous case, I think it was out of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and this was before my time, but it was a white victim, white neighborhood, and the profile was white male and the
00:38:37
Speaker
killer turned out to be a black male. and the And the reason why is because this was a white neighborhood and a black man would have stood out. But in this case, that that just wasn't the case. And so, you know, you can't just always make those assumptions. We we do our best. It's based on probabilities. um But I would not um rule out anybody based on their race.
00:39:02
Speaker
One of the things I was wondering about that, oh, you're fine. You're always fine. um One of the things I was wondering about, Larry Day, who was an inmate who escaped with Jean Leroy Hart, testified at the pretrial hearing and at the trial.
00:39:19
Speaker
Hart's previous crimes that he was at least arrested for involved breaking into a female police officer's apartment. It was a first three burglary and then three other families. So it was done at night. It was um It was while the dwelling was occupied. um And then there was he was accused of not convicted for all of this, but kidnapping of sexual and sexual assault of two 19 year old women. None of that involves crimes against children. But Larry Day, who was right
00:39:56
Speaker
Larry Drye, who escaped with him, um said that Hart had told him on two occasions in an area not too far from this one that he wanted to sexually assault girls that were 13 or under and I'm wondering what you would and it just gets me thinking about because I think are my natural tendency is to think that and I know everybody's got to start somewhere so but my natural tendency is to think if I see it a potentially sexually motivated murder.
00:40:32
Speaker
um that this person has got some other history I mean with young children with young children and so I'm just wondering what would you normally look uh expect to see when you think about this murder in terms of prior crimes or prior acts even even yeah I mean looking at this case I I would expect to have seen perhaps some other victimization of children just because, but it doesn't have to always be the case. I mean, this, you know, it could be very well, you know, when we talk about victim selection and desirability, availability, and vulnerability, I mean, every offender has their ideal victim.
00:41:18
Speaker
picture perfect ideal victim. Usually, that's the first thing that goes out the window. You know, the defenders, and you know, they're, they're, they're hunting, they're looking for their ideal victim. So, you know, they're not always going to find that ideal victim. So then, you know, what's, you know, what's available to me, and then who's the most vulnerable. So,
00:41:40
Speaker
That is the process they kind of go through and whoever is the most vulnerable that is who ends up being the the victim and that's the selection process that an offender will go through so i wouldn't necessarily i would say yes in this case.
00:41:56
Speaker
I would expect to have seen at some point some sort of victimization. There it was accusation there was an accusation to be fair. um It was mentioned in the book about the case ah from a prior girlfriend and she had a toddler son and he had evidence of sexual possible sexual assault. so um But that's the only thing that we found. I am. I'm bringing it up because somebody might.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't think there's, I don't think you can put much weight on the ex-girlfriend saying that a child can't speak, you know, that there was evidence of. And I mean, to me, it's one of the doctors that saw him, that saw the damage. Yeah. So but I mean, yeah john benet ramsey that's an excellent example.
00:42:43
Speaker
Right. Like supposedly John Bonet, at least according to many very interesting people on Twitter, there was evidence of her being abused. I don't know. I don't put I just don't put much weight into that kind of stuff. And I don't I don't know that it's that important because I think of people like BTK to her point and also to Julia's point and also Israel Keys. Like maybe you do have this. I never thought the idea that ah Vulnerability, desirability, and availability happened in a certain order of operations. But if desirability starts, and like you said, it's the first thing that goes out the window, I can't put much weight on what the victim is like unless there are a ton of victims that are just like that. right you know and Then desirability,
00:43:36
Speaker
Is different for everybody and some may have a very specific type of victim and there are other people that Have a very wide range of who they will they will victimize and just because they're vulnerable, you know Yes it it that it could be that it could be a wide age range. It could be ah Different it doesn't you know, just because they've offended against females doesn't mean they're not going to offend against male you you see that it just it could just be their range of what's desirable is just much bigger than others as well. so um But you know if we're going back to probabilities, in a case like this, you would you would think that there was past victimization of children, possibly past victimization and escalation of sexual or violence and of sexual violence against
00:44:27
Speaker
um victims whether they're underage or of age um ah certainly voyeurism and burglary i mean that's where it all starts and especially in somebody like this who we've already seen is going into occupied dwellings whether it's a tent where it's temporary or not this is where it starts this is what you're going to see early on this is so i'm ah you know i always tell if you if you have somebody And I can't stress this enough. If you have somebody who is going into a dwelling that they know is occupied and that that you have a problem. So ah that that is a ah that is a problem. that That is a person that needs to be you know remembered and monitored because in future crimes, um that's when you see the excellent ah escalation to actual hands-on offenses of people.
00:45:26
Speaker
Now when you have you these burgers that go in during the day and they're trying to avoid people and they go to the houses where there's not a car in the driveway and they're though those are the ones that are in that for a financial motive but when you go when somebody is going in. At after hours when people are expected to be home and they know that they're home they see cars in the driveway then you have to consider that there is another motive there and that motive is very dangerous.
00:45:52
Speaker
And that's that's who we're dealing with here. Even though it's these are temporary dwellings, they're still dwellings that have people in them. How soon do you want to... Oh, sorry. oh By the same respect, if we're doing sort of the inverse here where where you have him going into occupied dwellings, ah do you think his two escapes from custody, from prison or jail, ah Could that be part of a similar part of the picture? Here's somebody who walks in to wherever he wants. And here's a guy who will escape from any cage you put him in. um Is there a similar kind of mindset of there of of just kind of like, i don't I don't care what anybody wants in terms of boundaries. I'm going to do or go where I want. Yeah.
00:46:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. that I think that's exactly, you know, it's a good way to describe him. He doesn't have any boundaries. He doesn't have any concept of I have to obey the rules. It's not there.
Suspects: Larry Day and Gene Hart's Connection to the Crimes
00:46:51
Speaker
ah You know, even you take these crimes away.
00:46:54
Speaker
From him the the the murders of the girl scouts at the camp just take those away and look at what he's already done and um Pretty pretty bad. That is a person with absolutely no boundaries at all and Extremely violent extremely dangerous and extremely controlling Manipulative it's all there and so it you know However, this investigation was conducted and whatever the perception is and what it was at the time of how it was done. He absolutely should have been thought of as, you know, number one suspect. This is a person local to the area. And I think, you know, in terms of this this camp, you know, if you're in that area, you you.
00:47:42
Speaker
Likely know the schedule when all these people are coming in from out of town and are going to be at camp This is something that happened every year You know, they were there for two weeks said at a time and that you know, you know girls rotated in and out of there all the time So the locals would have a pretty good idea that that was going on at what time it started during the year when it ended and so I think this was somebody very familiar and so when you have a crime this horrific your first thought is going to be of the guy who kidnapped two 19-year-old pregnant women and brutally assaulted them. And like, how why wouldn't you think of him as the number one suspect? So I think he was absolutely properly prioritized. Whatever people may think about the subsequent investigation and and allegations of corruption and planting evidence, he absolutely was properly prioritized. as
00:48:40
Speaker
a number one suspect in this crime. I would have, ah you know, everything that his prior history indicated and was proven, but is it absolutely the sky fits? He's got to be your number one suspect.
00:48:54
Speaker
So one of the things I'm curious about was something ah the local said. And this is what I was going to ask you about. oh ah so But there, you know, there was a military style because we had talked about it. There is a military style.
00:49:11
Speaker
footprint found in blood. And then there was also a tennis shoe print. And I think that led people, although I think it's more complicated, that led some people to think maybe there were two offenders, possibly even a female like a counselor involved Although I will say I see this often because I think sometimes people just simply can't imagine that two people or three people could be killed just by one offender. But yeah does the second tennis shoe print or is there anything about the scene that screams two offenders to you? Oh, me? Yeah, or a group of odinists.
00:49:54
Speaker
That's ah actually a question I hate was very curious about myself because that is definitely a common point of contention with the when you have those multiple victim crimes like this that is the likelihood of being one or two or more ah involved.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah, and I think this is where Jason, when he had said earlier, sometimes some of the stuff he's heard on our show is counterintuitive. And so many cases that when you have multiple victims, most people, or many people tend to think well there has to be multiple offenders, so there's no way one person could control all of these victims. And when you look again back at statistics, statistically, when you have multiple victims,
00:50:38
Speaker
overwhelmingly you have a single offender. And so in terms of profiling a case, unless we have now in this case, there are two sets of footprints, but I don't consider that overwhelming evidence to me that I would say yes, there's two offenders there.
00:50:55
Speaker
that crime scene was not properly secured at first. And you had a lot of ah girls and kids and people running around. And you don't know if somebody went in there and didn't admit to it. It's just it's very hard to say. So I would not necessarily say that that was Directly part of the crime as opposed to contamination after the fact so i don't see anything in this crime that would lead me to believe that multiple offenders had to be involved this is something somebody could have done on their own it was very easy to go in there.
00:51:30
Speaker
hit three little girls while they're sleeping and then, you know, take them out even one by one, maybe a couple at a time. I don't know, but one person could accomplish what was accomplished there. And not like that, look at his previous crime. Again, even if you just say he didn't do this, but we've already seen at least that offender kidnap two women at gunpoint.
00:51:51
Speaker
I think it was at gunpoint, but anyway, he kidnapped two women coming out of the bar and was able to control them. And it was just him. There was no, nobody else involved. We've seen so many different crimes where multiple victims are involved and and there is one offender happens all the time. It happens most of the time. And and so again, i I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that there was anyone else involved, let alone a female.
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I just don't see it. I kind of imagine in my head when you describe that, like the two offenders, I must think about it like sniper, you know, if you have sniper shots coming from this direction, but they come from two different guns, that could still be one offender. But if you have shots coming from this direction and this direction and this direction, then you really want to look at multiple offenders. So you're sort of thinking, is there anything in this scene that couldn't have been done by just one person?
00:52:47
Speaker
Right. Something that had to have happened simultaneously or, you know, we just, you know, just did a case and, you know, the victimology told us that the offender always had to have a woman meet with him when he was conducting a drugs transaction and he was killed. Was that Bo? Which case was that? I'd love to hear that.
00:53:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah, Bo Bedford, Shelby County, Alabama. He was killed. This is a cold case from 2001 and we just assisted the Shelby County, Alabama Sheriff's Department on it. And so Bo, while he was a handyman, he also supplemented his income dealing crack cocaine and he had a system of meeting people and he always wanted to have a female present, he often took advantage of the females and extorted them um and would trade drugs for sex. Anyway, lots lots going on there. But because of his victimology and because of you know some of the risks in his life, we thought there's very possibly more than one person involved based on the crime scene and based on his normal pattern
00:53:59
Speaker
um And we thought you have to consider there's probably two people involved. um And that's rare. It's rare that we side on multiple offenders. And in in this case, i I just I do not see a case of multiple offenders involved in this. There's there is nothing compelling enough. Now, if you had You know two different the you know people's dna then i would be like okay maybe but one ah you know healthy fit. Strong person who has committed.
00:54:36
Speaker
similar types of crimes in the past could very easily control these three girls who again He had the cover of darkness that was to use that he used to his advantage He had the fact that this was their first night there There was confusion for them and he also had the element of surprise and I i don't They may not have even you know and Woken up at all and Choice of weapon Axe in the middle of the night cuz at first I thought to myself a gun would be a great way to control three people I Know so what? what made you Think an axe is there some evidence? I didn't send reference to an axe, but it was kind of flimsy I think like a hatchet of hatchet tape
00:55:25
Speaker
yeah so yeah Yeah, and I think we don't have the medical examiner's report, but in the testimony, they talk about the possibility of an axe, but nothing definitive, like ah like a small hatchet. And I thought to myself, like a gun would be a great weapon, except for the problem of threatening someone with a gun is you often have to talk.
00:55:44
Speaker
So he'd have to talk and I'd have to be able to see see it. It was so dark. and i think it was dark and he You know, he had his flashlight, but it was, you know, he had muted it because he had covered it with the black plastic trash bag or something like that. And so I mean, probably, I mean, honestly, the the easiest and most practical way to go in there and get control is just to go in and and hit them while they were sleeping. And but but that's quiet. It doesn't draw attention and it will quickly incapacitate them.
00:56:25
Speaker
so and or stunned them at the very least. I mean, maybe they weren't killed immediately, but stunned enough where um they're not going to even be able to fight back. So I think that's possibly what happened to John Bonnet. I think she was probably, you know, in bed and she was hit over the head with something. And, you know, I know there's ah debate about whether a stun gun was used or not. I mean, I, you know, she has those, you know, two sets of marks on her. I'm not a stun gun expert, so I can't, you know, really weigh in on that. I find the marks to be very interesting and unusual, but I think that's very possible. What happened, she was hit on the head and that would be
00:57:14
Speaker
you know knock her out or an incapacitate her and stun her and she would just be able to be picked up and carried to where she was eventually found. And then moved for the sort of sexual part of it for the criminal, whatever that was right i would who i was. One of the things that I think was certainly baffling for a lot of people um in the town. So they had this soft-spoken high school football star um you know who was accused of these brutal sort of horrendous crimes and he shows up in trial
00:57:54
Speaker
um And a really nice suit. He has a press conference before where he's soft spoken, seems relatively humble about things. But I told Allison today, I don't trust anything anyone says once their lawyers are involved. But you know, because they're managing perception, but he didn't seem to fit the the profile of what you would, what I would imagine in thinking about sort of like a statistics sociopathic killer. And then I was
00:58:27
Speaker
sitting at my desk reading personality disorders in modern life, because that's what I do for fun. That's what it does. yeah Yes, right. And I didn't even get to the section on this, but I remember that with personal personality disorders, often, you know, those those disruptive behaviors are happening when people are under stress or they're not paying attention to their behaviors. But when they are self monitoring really well, like thinking about your average person with antisocial personality disorder, who's somewhat socially skilled,
00:58:58
Speaker
What comes off as being charming and interesting sometimes and so that maybe being. A sort of sociopathic behavior and sadistic behavior isn't. That far off from a really charming or interesting person ala Ted Bundy when when you are self monitoring.
00:59:19
Speaker
And so I'm wondering whether that's something maybe we should give less weight to the way that people present. Yes. Yes. Okay. In fact, no, I actually, no, I think you should give a lot of weight. I think you need to really question when somebody comes across as very charming and very charismatic. And I just don't think you should take them at face value. I think you really do have to sit there and question. I say that about myself all the time. i it you know i all you know i just read
00:59:49
Speaker
so Without giving anything away, i just I recently talked with somebody and you know they're accused and convicted of a horrible crime and talking with them, they are very nice to talk to. And I thought to myself,
01:00:06
Speaker
Do not get fooled. You can like people who do horrible things. They can come across as very, night that's how they get away with a lot of things. That's how they can fool and manipulate and take advantage and gain access to people through their personality. And and i'm not I'm not an expert in psychopathy. I can't diagnose people, but psychopathy and narcissism, I mean, characteristics of that are ah you know charming.
01:00:32
Speaker
and charismatic and a lot of times you see that in the business world that they can take advantage and you get people close and you like them and um you know they and then they can turn on you as well obviously so so.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah, you have to be cautious when somebody, ah wow, they seem like they're a really nice person. You really just have to always be asking yourself, am I being fooled? I've interviewed enough people to know that somebody can do something really bad. They can take advantage of people, and that but you can actually sit and have a pretty good conversation with them and come out of there and think, well, no wonder they committed all those crimes. They're pretty, I like them. I mean, really, you have to.
01:01:17
Speaker
um my Always question that when somebody is too smooth when somebody is too when you come out of this, you know And then I I know this is a just a terrible way to live and one of my I think I've told this story before and Jason probably has heard this but I used to work very closely with a um with the Boston police and One of the detectives I worked with said I was the happiest cynical person he'd ever met I I just go around, but I'm like super cynical. like That person was just too nice. I don't know about that. you know but yeah you know I don't go through life questioning everybody that's nice to me. But when I'm in a situation yeah where they're accused of something and they come across really nice, I think you have to take that into consideration. Is this how they committed their crime? And this is how they're fooling people because they're so charismatic. They come across so well, and we just can't let people like that fool us.
01:02:12
Speaker
You just made me realize something. My absolute, so I've been since 2007, part of my job has been working with clients in mental health settings. And my absolute favorite clients were either diagnosed, had already been diagnosed or later diagnosed with either antisocial personality disorder histrionic personality disorder or um borderline personality disorder. Vast majority of them are masses. Vast majority of them did bad things, but they were absolutely the most enjoyable people to talk to. 100% most enjoyable. And you had to like remind yourself when you were talking with them, like don't fall for it. Like everyone else does. Don't fall for it. So that that really resonated with me. Sorry, Allison.
01:02:58
Speaker
ah One thing that really ah stuck out with me too, in terms of the way Gene presented himself, um he comes off of this very socially aware, very articulate, very intelligent guy. um You know, has a way of sort of um ah When he talks about he's not a hero and he you know he says he sings and another thing that he does though is he only admits he missed a part of a crime that he's ah accused of. He'll say something like oh i only raped one of the girls not both of them and i didn't kidnap them or what the home invasion i think he tried to minimize that a little bit um do you think there's like something in the.
01:03:40
Speaker
In the psychology there of like if he is a guilty person but he's only gonna admit to part of it like what i mean does that indicate anything about this person's. I don't know. ah Mind is a really smart defense attorney. Yeah. I mean, I just, like you know, what yeah, I found that really interesting. Like I'm only going to miss a part of this, but not the whole thing. I think most killers i mean yeah like like that or this particular one in in this case, they're never going to tell you everything.
01:04:12
Speaker
and we We like to we like to think even the best interviewers and the best profilers and blue i can get this information out of this person and. No you never well and they're just never gonna tell you every single thing and they're always gonna hold something back.
01:04:29
Speaker
You know that they keep for themselves and then also to you know Some somebody who's extremely good around people and manipulating people if they if they take accountability or they admit to Some part of it and like oh, okay. Well they admitted to that. Why won't they admit to that then you believe them? yeah He's like well, they're admitting to something so they become more believable. Well, they know that and And you may have evidence. Yes, you're going to laugh. My mom said when I was a kid, she was like, you would never deny like your brother would deny taking the snacks from the cabinet. You would never deny it. You admit to like one tenth of it to try and convince us that you had admitted to everything and then we would find out all this other things. So I'm like, yeah, it's a great strategy. It is a great strategy. And it you know, it it
01:05:18
Speaker
is if People have a hard, why did he admit to this? But he won't admit to that. And and we we question that. It's just, well, it's they could be playing a game. It could be, well, you know, they they'll have to believe me if I meant to admit to part of it. And because we do. If somebody tells us partial truths, then we tend to believe the other stuff that they're saying. But that could just be some you know game they're playing with us and getting some enjoyment. but Like I fooled them on that one. But, you know, what I've come to realize in my colleague you know, Bob has really reiterated this to me over the years and he's on our show and he's was a mentor to me at the BAU. And he's like, you know, so many times like you know these killers that that we talked to and they, you know, you interview them and they tell you things, they really have so very little insight into their own behavior.
01:06:05
Speaker
And they rarely tell you the entire truth and ah they they just play games. And so, you know, learning their histories and things, you know, some the external factors that shape them are really interesting, but really trying to gain an understanding of them by talking to them is somewhat fruitless. um That's what, you know, Bob always says. And I tend to kind of agree with that. um You you'd really just never know.
01:06:34
Speaker
I worked with an investigator in New York or not worked with, but it covered things. And he was like on the midnight shift. So in New York, you really can't get near a crime scene unless it's like at 3 a.m. But you get to know the guys like in the different areas who work. And this guy said, if you want to know why somebody committed a crime, the person who committed it is the last person you should ask.
01:06:55
Speaker
That's right. yeah yeah And I see one of your, one of the comments down here. Yes. um You know, sometimes they are embarrassed. They'll admit to something they did, but not another part of it because it's, it's almost, they know that it's too horrible to admit to.
01:07:14
Speaker
And they're not going to admit to it, even in whether it's embarrassment or they just know. I mean, that's even too bad for, you know, a serial killer to do. So they're not going to admit it. And then also, again, this is their these are their deepest, darkest fantasies. And another one of my colleagues used to say, you know, imagine trying to you share your deepest, darkest fantasies with people. You're not going to do it. You're not going to be comfortable with that. Well, they're not either.
01:07:40
Speaker
And that always resonated with me. That was said to me pretty early on. It's kind of like, yeah, you're right. know Even though you know our fantasies are nothing compared to what the killers are, we're still uncomfortable with it. And they are too. Yeah. And they and and even if you are, you have no remorse and you have really, you know because I think of some of these cases where um I don't want to name any particular case, but i I think of some of these cases where at times afterwards, and if you you believe Richard Allen, you know, he confessed 61 times to Delphi murder, he certainly, whatever was going on there certainly doesn't seem comfortable with it. So just because you have the fantasy does not mean you feel like it's acceptable for everybody to know.
01:08:29
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, when I haven't spent some time talking to inmates and stuff during when I was in college doing forensic psych stuff, um the um the one thing the one prevailing thing that stuck out with me of all the guys that came in to Completely independent of personality every one of them use the passive voice when speaking about the crime and that they were involved with it was just this distance this language distance they were putting between they were there was never i did this or this thing was done by or you know my charge or
01:09:03
Speaker
You know, so there's there's always this and I don't even know that they're aware that they're doing it. I think it really is just as I have to put this wall between myself and this. I have an example from my own life. You know, when I committed plagiarism and fabrication at the New York Times for probably the first decade afterwards, I described it as when the scandal at the Times happened.
01:09:28
Speaker
as if like I wasn't a part of it. And I don't think I was necessarily not trying to take responsibility for it. At least I don't think I think as I said those words, the situation was so painful and so embarrassing and so difficult that I couldn't put me in the sentence. And I just thought to myself, I did an interview at some point years after that.
01:09:54
Speaker
where somebody said, oh, you know I'm so glad that you said you did X, Y, or Z, that you fabricated and plagiarized. And I thought to myself at that moment, like oh, am I finally taking personal responsibility for this fully? Am I finally at the point where i am I've come to some kind of
Socioeconomic Factors and Community Influence
01:10:15
Speaker
peace about it? So I i always notice that language now.
01:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, i just wouldn that was it really was. Whenever I was listening to that interview and I heard that, I was like, he he has come a very long way. He must have because if it was too close to it or whatever, he just- Oh, you mean mine? Yeah. i and Well, yeah. and i and I feel like that is um it's something I've done. I do as well. Absolutely. Anything I can think of shameful that I've done.
01:10:41
Speaker
um Yeah, I've found my brain kind of working that. you know How can I phrase this in a way that it doesn't mean as much? I'll talk to you about the prime, but I have nothing to do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. no So that's a very human thing.
01:10:53
Speaker
all Right. So Jennifer has a question about whether it could have been a socioeconomic. I really like this question, Target. um They had family paying for them to go to camp and he has nothing. He slashed tents and threw the girls so out of their safety. And that reminds me of something Larry Drey said. He said,
01:11:13
Speaker
um I think he said it better. Yeah, he said at the trial that the people in the town did not understand that Gene was not the man that he was before, that he came out resentful, bitter, and I forget what the phrase was, but it was that something something toward the world, something negative toward the world. And you know, when Julia, you mentioned that the Girl Scouts themselves collectively could have been the victim. I also wonder whether like the community also could have been the collective victim. Yeah, I mean, you know depending on how the community and and how he felt with them there, as you know Jennifer points out, they have families being you know that can afford to send them to these camps. I don't necessarily think that they were
01:12:07
Speaker
Super wealthy just because they could send their girls to a camp their middle class and and maybe but maybe doing better than some of the people in the town so depending on how he viewed it there could be resentment which could be some of the reasons why he was taunting leading up to it and it you know resentful it's possible i don't know um i don't think that's the entire reason but it could contribute to why.
01:12:33
Speaker
this camp in particular was was selected as opposed to him finding but you know a child somewhere else or other victims, you know like like the one the women that he kidnapped um years before. But yeah, there could be some motive there that we just don't know about um or some part of the selection process that we're not privy to.
01:13:00
Speaker
yeah ah Jessica has a quick correction for us, just a clarification that the supposed assault on the two-year-old was, it was an ex-girlfriend but a friend of the family and it was to your a two-year-old boy um who was a distant relative. so that's I'm not sure it changes the ah equation all that much, but that's let's just get that right for the record. So do you guys have any other questions that I missed? Feel free to re-ask them. I'm going to scroll through. Allison, did you see anything I missed?
01:13:34
Speaker
I was scrolling through myself here just a second. Just want to make sure. um So many good questions, by the way, um from everybody.
01:13:45
Speaker
um oh there was it yeah There was an interesting one, and and we might have already covered this, um but it was flagged before we started ah for me to ask. Lori Farmer, the youngest um of the the girls, um see she was negative.
01:14:03
Speaker
for semen. um And do you think that there's anything that we could tell after everything we've discussed ah based on that that you know would be significant to you? um if If there was no semen found, I don't think there was evidence of sexual assault either, um if i if I remember the research correctly.
01:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, and i I think it's it's possible that they weren't all sexually assaulted, you know, but just because there's not any semen present doesn't mean it, you know, she wasn't sexually victimized in some way. And this wasn't there wasn't a sexual component to what happened to her. um So I wouldn't necessarily.
01:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, who knows? I mean, you know, even just the entering of the tent is right sexually motivated in my opinion. I, you know, a loose Schlesinger who is a criminologist who um was somebody who taught us at BAU and he's written lots of books on serial offenders and He he was really instrumental or his work some of his research that he'd done was very instrumental and kind of forming my ideas about sexual burglary and I became kind of like this advocate of you know if you have a burglar you have a problem.
01:15:24
Speaker
And right um you know and I i really do I've been I laugh about it, but it's just I take it so seriously um you know when I teach about serial sexual assault and going back and looking at um The history of people when you're looking for a rapist and you're not necessarily looking for a sexual assault you're looking for burglaries and ah you know, cases where things that don't make sense happened, and you they they may not, they might not be obviously sexual, but they have some sort of but potentially symbolic meaning and why they might not make sense to us, they make sense to the offender. And that's what you're looking for. So you don't always see evidence of sexual assault. There are so many cases involving Joe D'Angelo when he was known as the Visalia Ransacker. I mean,
01:16:19
Speaker
He burglarized hunt you know over 100 homes and many of them had nobody would have recognized as being sexual in nature. But then when you go back and look at these cases,
01:16:32
Speaker
As you know, not just as isolated but as an escalation you see it. Oh, yeah, this was sexual. He did this he did that um and And you can see it then so just because you don't see the sexual assault doesn't mean um There wasn't some sort of offense committed and against her in that manner and that there wasn't that wasn't the underlying motivation great um And then we also have on the screen here, Jess ah mentioned, do you think that Denise could have been marked out of the tent? Does that sound ah viable to you? I mean, she was the oldest, ah ostensibly would be maybe the biggest and the heaviest, perhaps hardest to carry, but also we you know theorize that he might have been particularly focused on controlling her.
01:17:20
Speaker
um yeah Yeah, I think it's possible because um you know i I don't think she was necessarily marched out of the tent without maybe some injury to her already. I think he probably had to do something to stun her and keep her quiet.
01:17:36
Speaker
um But, you know, because she was, mean you know, when you look at, you look at the focus and you look at, like, if let's say you're going back and seeing, okay, was she specifically targeted? Does she have any problems? You'd want to look at her because she was treated different. And it is possible that those that the other victims, Lori and Michelle, were put in the sleeping bags to be carried out.
01:17:58
Speaker
And I do think there's possible evidence of additional sexual assault against Denise in the woods as well. So yeah, I do think possibly she could have been walked out or marched out. um But you know he's pretty you know he's a football player. He's physically fit. I know she was a little bit older and and um bigger than the other two. I think it's also you know he's perfectly capable and physically capable of carrying her as well.
01:18:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So we've got we've got one down here from Miss Anne. Is it possible that the offender was trying to lure a counselor into the woods by turning the light on and off? She ran, but someone else might have. He would have successfully gotten me, Miss Anne, because i I would have walked right toward that light.
01:18:50
Speaker
Not me. I don't know. I don't know why I don't go camping. It's pretty much this whole case will keep me out of a campground. My curiosity will be the end of me.
01:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, I I I do think that that is possible. I mean, and Jason's theory about maybe just taunting her and scaring her, that's a possibility. But yeah, you know drawing her out to to him um is it's kind of smart, actually. It's lower risk. um but But what he also rent ran around the risk of is she went back and told somebody and they can't they all come out and look for him. And so that was that would be pretty risky.
01:19:31
Speaker
But, you know, there is the um other witness who said that he grabbed her by the, she was grabbed by a raincoat. So it is possible he was just trying to grab someone who was out and about. And when that didn't work out, he went into the tent.
01:19:47
Speaker
to get his victims. One of the things I'm thinking about that this offender is either showing a lot of confidence, narcissistic confidence, or like psychosis.
01:19:58
Speaker
and i can't really he outward Yeah, I think he's confident and determined Yep. Yeah, very determined. He's determined. He was determined to do something and maybe he tried, you know, as Missy Anne suggests, different ways. And um but he's he's confident in and I think he's comfortable and confident in that area. I think this is somebody who was very familiar with the area. um you know This is what I would say without knowing who is ultimately arrested anyway. I mean, you just don't go into the camp in the woods and
01:20:33
Speaker
you lurk about and in the dark like that for that length of time without being very comfortable in the area and knowing who's out there and what's out there and what to expect. I mean, any anybody who's not familiar with being out in the woods and you're out there for the first time is strange. It's just not an area you're going to be comfortable with committing a crime like that. You have to be pretty comfortable in the area. Yeah.
01:21:00
Speaker
and it's And it's funny too, and I think Rosie makes a really good point in the chat about like sometimes people overthink you know aspects of crimes. And I was on with them Julie Murray, I had as a guest, and we were we were talking about you know the many strange things her sister, Maura, did on the day that she disappeared. And I was kind of thinking to myself, like OK, I didn't go to the most direct way to work today. I had to turn around and come back because I forgot to take a medicine that I had. I didn't park in my normal parking space at the office because I got there later. Like how would people interpret those events as I did if I disappeared that day or like that I didn't take a shower or whatever it was that, you know, just because the offender did certain things like we don't. It doesn't need to make sense always.
01:21:50
Speaker
It doesn't necessarily, and it very often, I think, isn't going to make sense. um Jen has this question, or Jennifer has this question, how do you know if it's sexual or power motivated?
01:22:03
Speaker
I think, I think they're intertwined. I really think, I think they're so intertwined. I mean, I don't, you know, while they're sexually motivated, there's so much control and power that's in violence. That's all part of it. It's all wrapped up together. And I don't think you can really distinguish, but I think that the sexual aspect of it comes from you know overpowering and being in control of another person.
Control and Power as Criminal Motives
01:22:33
Speaker
um to you know and and yeah The ultimate control is killing them. so i think there I don't know that you can distinguish between the two of them, and I think that they're just so closely aligned um in terms when it comes to motive. ah Most of the time, i mean
01:22:53
Speaker
I'm just you know every time I see These cases and it's really hard to just lump them in because they they are all very different but I think the common theme that I see is control and power and um That that's like a common theme that you in seeing and that's what they're ultimately attempting to gain and I remember taking the psychology class where the professor gave us these examples of different murders, like a serial murder, a drug-related murder, of you know, fill in the blank. And he would ask us, what do you think the motive for the murder is? And no matter what anyone said, he said control. Control. and Then every time, because he said ultimately killing someone, it's about control. You're trying to control something, it doesn't matter what the
01:23:36
Speaker
what the what the situation was. And I thought that was interesting because while other things may be a part of the motive, really, at the end of the day, killing someone is always going to be about having ultimate control over them. Yeah. I mean, that's a very insightful question.
01:23:53
Speaker
that i I think that it's impossible. I mean, it's really just so they're so closely aligned. Um, but it's going to remind people of that because I think a lot of people don't often think of it that way. Um, a lot of people still kind of frame rape in the context of sex or sexual attraction. And it,
01:24:13
Speaker
It really is not, uh, yeah, oh you know you know, it's, it's this, this isn't funny, but it's, um, you know, when I was back in the unit and this is my, uh, the first boss that I had when I was there and we got a case in and it was.
01:24:32
Speaker
ah Flasher this guy was flashing people and it was on a college campus and. They wanted you know they were concerned is this escalating and you are are that was not the typical kind of case that we would work.
01:24:48
Speaker
And so i would might it had come in, I think my boss was mentioning it and he's like, ah, that's just, i I forget what he called it, but he just sort of said, that's not serious. and And I said, well, wait a second. You have somebody who is forcing himself on people and and he he he's sort of started to see it in a different way. They're imposing their will for you to see him naked. And that's a problem.
01:25:13
Speaker
And, you know, so it's like, even though, again, it's, it, that is a, that is a power move. That is a way to gain control. I am forcing you to see something that you are not willing to see or not, you are not consenting to. Um, and so we dismiss those types of crimes. And, you know, I, it was really interesting to see, he kind of came, he's like, you know what? You're absolutely right. You take it. You're going to do this case.
01:25:38
Speaker
And yeah so I did a whole profile and everything and i you know i I picked apart every incident in which that this offender was doing this and you you know I kept seeing these slight escalations and um ultimately it ended up he ended up grabbing ah girl And luckily, it in again, this was um on college campus and college students, and um she wrestled with him and got away. and And thank God she wasn't sexually assaulted, but they caught him. And I remember the chief you know calling, the chief of the um university calling, like, yeah you're absolutely right about him. He was he was going to commit a sexual assault eventually.
01:26:19
Speaker
um And so you know we just talk about these crimes where it doesn't really seem like they're power motivated, but they really are. It's somebody else imposing their will on you. um And I think in any kind of any kind of situation, whether it's somebody flashing you or somebody just imposing ah against your will, whether it's you know just being forceful personality, you have to back up and and proceed with caution.
01:26:48
Speaker
Yep, yep, yep. You know, when anybody tries to control you. Alison, are you ready for theories? Do you have your theory ready? I have my theory. I do. It's completely changed because of Julia. Oh, I just want to say it didn't completely change, but it did change. I'm feeling very validated and some feelings that I've been having this last week and a half, two weeks here as we've been sort of ah going through this. um But I have been trying, I wanted to wait till we had this conversation. And first of all, Jason, brilliant idea to have Julia on because I feel like this was really needed to kind of bring the cohesion of a lot of these sort of disparate things that were swirling around in my head. um As we were talking about all this from the ah the crime itself, the evidence involved, the timeline, and then the
01:27:45
Speaker
the whole social justice side of it, um completely separate from that. So I've been sort of withholding any, having too many thoughts, um firm thoughts on what happened or a theory, specifically because I just think, you know, I think about what the jury went through.
01:28:03
Speaker
And a lot of the doubts that were sown there, and I had to put myself in their shoes a bit and try to see it from their eyes and and everything. But after having this discussion today, I mean, yes, I do believe that my gut feeling all along and what we've discussed today kind of match up the gene fits the profile. And I had told Jason this that ah my gut is telling me it is him. And it it wasn't just, I couldn't lay fingers on a specific piece of evidence that said, aha, this is the smoking gun because there really isn't one.
01:28:38
Speaker
Ah quite um but when we look at the facts here the details uh in my opinion we have a very uh socially aware articulate intelligent physically strong individual here he has a history of violence against vulnerable people young pregnant women ostensibly, possibly kids, um at least a desire ah possibly to attack children, um constantly minimizes his worst behaviors, which we'd established all of us do that, but it just was a pattern that stuck out to me. Not me anymore, Allison. I paint my worst behaviors on billboards.
01:29:17
Speaker
Same. I try to. i'm ah I'm an author. I just put it in a book somewhere. um But it i he's come he just seems comfortable ah in an environment where you know he has to interact with ah presenting himself like wearing the three-piece suits and doing the press conference and kind of playing to
Jury Acquittal and Community Reactions
01:29:37
Speaker
the public. and feeding into this folk hero image that was surrounding him. ah And then we have the taunting elements here. We have the note that the counselor received. We have the cave sign. ah To me,
01:29:51
Speaker
ah Things like this, you know when it says bye-bye fools ah the killer was here you are sending a message that you are Thumbing your nose at the man and the biggest way possible ah as well as that being the culture of the local community Which we discussed in the previous episode, right? um But it points to a man who walks into occupied dwellings who escapes prison ah it points to a man who has been so embittered by society or how he perceives that he has been treated by society according to his friend larry dry um i would say a lot of this just kind of culminates in somebody who would be driven to commit an act of absolute defilement.
01:30:39
Speaker
in order to horrify a society that he believes is his enemy um that has deprived him of his life and liberty. um And what better way to do this than to brutal brutally murder and rape three little girls and leave them piled up at the base of a tree, tossed away like yesterday's garbage. However,
01:31:01
Speaker
Because after saying all that, there is a big however, you know, in a lot of cases, we hear people say, I think they did it, but I can see why they were found not guilty. And you hear that in OJ Simpson, you heard that in Casey Anthony, there there are many famous acquittals out there that people say this about. And I usually tend to think that's a sign that somebody wasn't paying as much attention to some of the details of of the case. um But in this case,
01:31:27
Speaker
it it It actually applies and in my opinion. um Because like I said in episode two, while the circumstantial evidence here of of you know the flashlight and the there were the pictures at the cave, there were a lot of things, a lot of objects that you know look pretty solid from afar, but up close. It's a big old mess. It is the Monet effect. and you know you it just I can see how the defense could effectively poke holes.
01:31:56
Speaker
in the prosecution's case. And then you add in the community aspect of this that has a history of harboring fugitives going all the way back to pretty boy Floyd. Um, and these stories and these, uh, you know, these close knit people that all know the history of this town and the law enforcement. Um, I can just see why he was acquitted, but do I think that he did it?
01:32:23
Speaker
Yeah, and that's probably without even factoring in the DNA problem. um Always going to keep an open mind, but um I do think ultimately they got their men. Alison, I always say I firmly believe this with 100% my heart until you provide me some other evidence that says I'm wrong. You know, always open to new evidence. I think for me with, ah you know, my thoughts really go back to things like that. um that note that was found in the donut box, the um weird things that were happening at the camp in advance, um like the tents getting ripped. The fact that you know locals knew the Girl Scouts were coming that day, I really do buy into what Julia said, that it at a minimum, it wasn't really about
01:33:14
Speaker
probably wasn't about these three girls, but the girls collectively or the community collectively, and certainly the behaviors before and the behaviors after, um and the night before the murder. To me, I sort of feel like it was a mix, probably a mix of um attempting to taunt people because I see a lot of unnecessary things, ah behaviors that are happening that night that you know go beyond just trying to find a find a victim. But I think it was a mix of trying to find a victim or victims and taunting people. You see a lot of sadistic things from the note
01:33:58
Speaker
that was left to the note that was found in the cave. And you know some of the sadism can continue far beyond that, the fear in the community and other things like that. you know And there were lots of events that happened, including trying to grab the girl with the raincoat, the the counselor that kept on getting flashed with the light, other things along the the low guttural sound. And you might write those things off to the imagination of the kids. But one thing that weighs on me is that a lot of those things were reported that night. They're reported to a counselor, they're reported to somebody else.
01:34:32
Speaker
And part of the reason why I know people make a lot out of the intra-racial aspect of crimes, I just get the feeling it didn't matter to the suspect or may have mattered to whoever the suspect was, but it wasn't the the most important thing. So that's why it really clicked for me, Julia, when you said desirability comes first, then goes out the window.
01:34:54
Speaker
I'm because vulnerability on the other end availability and vulnerability um matter more so when i think of somebody stalking the camp at night and that there is one black girl in the entire camp i I have a hard time imagining just based on everything we saw that that was his target that it was a more collective target and then I think the other thing for me that really sort of stands out in that early um I think that early stage of things.
01:35:29
Speaker
is, or at least of the case. I get why they would hone in on him immediately, right? You've got the detectives even said it in their interviews when he broken, when heartbroken to the police officer, female police officer's house.
01:35:48
Speaker
He goes to the door, she says, stop and leave. He doesn't leave. He freezes. And it's not until she brings out a gun, clicks the hammer that he leaves. And and that idea that he was there for a burglary um doesn't really wash with me what makes way more sense. And the same things same thing with the assaults on the the two older girls that it really was about like power and control and getting off on the idea of violating somebody's boundaries. All these things involve violating people's boundaries to the extreme extreme
01:36:31
Speaker
So that weighed in, I think that weighed in for me too, um because I think a lot of things in Hart's background point in this direction. um you know I felt like he there's a lot of evidence that he had grievances um against at least people in the community. Larry Dry, who escaped with them, I think the quote was,
01:36:58
Speaker
you know, it was Gene was not the person he used to be people that people in the town remembered him to be when he escaped. He was unbelievably bitter. And on many occasions, he planned to kill his son and wife. And he felt that the whole world had betrayed him. And he was going to get him back. And this really seemed like almost like a terroristic, that he was trying to torture the whole community. um and Dry is also the one who said he expressed interest in girls under 13, but based on what Julia is saying and everything I know, I and don't put a lot of stock in
01:37:34
Speaker
the girl's age and other victims being different ages. um And I think it also goes to the thing that I like to say, everybody has to start somewhere, right? like um And I don't put much stock in the fact that he was charming. And then this in my mind, his charm afterwards kind of works against him. um I think of people like Israel keys who had the investigators, they may have been faking it to some extent, but laughing along with him or Ted Bundy who um charm people. And so I think when I think of the type of person who commit the crime, and you really sold me on this idea.
01:38:12
Speaker
julia The brutality of the crime and the lack of remorse shown in the crime really sticks out to me. I don't think it was somebody who knew the girls or had some kind of strong emotional attachment to them or even like a gentle attachment to them.
01:38:28
Speaker
um I don't buy the idea that there was a second person for all those reasons that you were discussing before. There's no real evidence the second person is involved. In terms of the tennis shoe, I don't know if you guys have ever really been in a lot of shock or been really surprised. ah like you know If you ever go through a really shocking moment, go back and ask yourselves 10 minutes later, what where was I? I don't even know where I was or what building I was in, much less what room I was in or what I could have.
01:38:56
Speaker
stepped in. So I don't put much stock in the um tennis shoe itself, but I really think that this is somebody who has a strong desire for revenge, somebody who's really brutal, resentful, callous, willing to take risks,
01:39:13
Speaker
fearless and you know I see elements of that throughout ah Gene Hart's history up and through the trial even you know his defiance and I sort of think of like in clinical I always look at things through a clinical lens but there's this um type of Psychopathy, where you see features of antisocial personality disorder as a prominent feature, but you also see sadistic and narcissistic elements in it. It's called malevolent antisocial personality. And often those people are super charming, but underneath have a lot of resentment.
Other Suspects and DNA Evidence Limitations
01:39:53
Speaker
um They're willing to take risks. They are fearless, they are guiltless, and and and they're also very charming.
01:40:01
Speaker
when they're monitoring their own behaviors. So I really don't put much sock in how he presented afterwards. um Because at the end of the day, you know being a successful serial killer, being a successful sadist really requires an ability to manipulate. So I don't know why that would turn off ah simply because somebody's been charged.
01:40:27
Speaker
Because whatever is driving somebody enough to kill three little girls is so powerful that being put on trial for it is not necessarily going to stop that drive. One of the things for me that stuck out stuck out in both the crimes was I i i you know I know Julia made the point that it could moving the bodies um could have been cleaning up, but I kept on going back to the assaults on the 19 year old girls. He sexually assaulted them in the car, then tied them up, put duct tape over their eyes, walked them through a field,
01:41:04
Speaker
across a creek, to a tree, and left them there. For nu for me, maybe for in my mind for no discernible reason, but it clicked in my head when you were talking about the idea of cleaning up and delaying the response. The one thing, the one legitimate reason to do that would be to make it harder for the girls to make it back to the road and call for law enforcement and easier for him to get further away. So I wonder whether this is a part of his MO for getting away with crimes and that you know he was caught for the previous sexual assault um and possibly either it escalated or he didn't want to be caught again.
01:41:47
Speaker
And he was caught because the victims arrived and saw the license plate. And if the victims are all dead, that's not necessary. There are things like the ropes with both victims and cords with both victims. The flashlight that he was seen with.
01:42:05
Speaker
You know, when we get to the trial, there are a couple things that happened that I think raise a lot of doubt. um And one of them is ah you two witnesses came on, jo I believe it's Joyce Payne and her son Larry Short. And they testified that a Kansas rapist named Bill Stevens had come to their house that day with red paint on or no, with red stains on his shoes and scratches all over his body on the 13th. So the morning um of the murders. Another witness ah who we didn't really talk about
01:42:44
Speaker
um A waitress said that she saw that morning, around six or seven in the morning, a man who looked a lot like Bill Stevens um at her at her um the diner where she worked, and that he was so disturbing, and he kept on looking down on his feet, that she called the police, even though she didn't know that the Girl Scout murders had happened.
01:43:08
Speaker
But we also found out that Joyce Payne was girlfriends with an inmate in Kansas who, you know, the defense had promised or he thought the defense had promised him help. So I have to sort of discount that um testimony a little bit. But I think I do understand why there was doubt for the jury.
01:43:28
Speaker
I think I really, truly understand. Although I come to a slightly different position than you, um I think with the available science at the time, right, without the DNA advances or we don't know that hair is reliable, to me, I think it's beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence that they put on that Jean Leroy Hart was responsible for it. The things that stick out in my mind are his proximity,
01:43:58
Speaker
to the area, his knowledge of the area, ah similar behaviors in terms of the ropes, the taunting, um you know the to the point you guys are making about the escape from, all the boundary violations, whether it's escape from prison or the way those ah those different assaults. I see those three sets of crimes as really similar. The 19-year-olds to me are very similar to breaking in to to the woman's apartment, ah to this. I feel like it was all sexually motivated and it was motivated by crossing people's boundaries, taking power and taking control over them. That's just where I'm at right now, or that's where I would have been right then. I probably would have been the one that got us to a mistrial with all all the other 11 people going for a quarter.
01:44:51
Speaker
But I think over time that news sort of tightened for me. And I have to tell you, I came into the case with the exact opposite position. I was like, there is a ton of this. Yeah, because you've been fighting me always. And that's why I don't tell you my theory before I get to my theory.
01:45:09
Speaker
and you're You're mistaking my process for that. My process is to come up with an idea, then attack it and destroy it um and see what's remaining. so you know And when I look at it, the evidence sort of points in that direction afterwards. In 1999, when they did the DNA testing, um the you know one in 7,700 natives in America could have been the suspect. I calculated that out, and if you assume there were 1.4 million natives at the time, 49% of the native population was men. That would be 89 potential suspects. How many of them live next door?
01:45:53
Speaker
right So that's got to be a relatively small a group of people. um It's a shame that the 2019 DNA testing was inconclusive. ah My understanding is that they have you know there is no DNA available um to to test anymore.
01:46:17
Speaker
You know, so I don't know that we're ever going to get closure on this case. And I really do understand the jury's doubt, just given the evidence. But if they knew what they knew after the trial about some of the testimony,
01:46:33
Speaker
They knew what they knew about the DNA and know what we know now about behaviors, particularly that idea that our charming high school football player could not also be a a mass murderer. I think they would have been much more likely um to convict. But one of the things I tripped across when I was looking at it was Laura Farmer's mom, a Sherry Farmer.
01:46:59
Speaker
and ah She, you know, she had suspected possibly there were more people involved in the crime. But one of the things she said to the Oklahoma men afterwards, she said, I've always felt in my gut that there was more than one person present. But given the DNA results, you have to wonder um You know, she asked about, you have to wonder who took part, you know, who could have possibly taken part in the murders. But the part that really stuck with me, she said, going back to the very first investigation, I felt they did a good job. And I never doubted the reasons for naming Hart as a suspect. We sat through every day of the trial, but it was not a perfect scenario to find him guilty. And we ended up with a not guilty verdict. And I really think I understand why the jury got there. I just think the jury got it wrong.
01:47:46
Speaker
I mean, yeah, they they did. And I also think bringing up a point ah that Jessica mentioned and that we shared in the last episode, I think there is absolutely a valid way or for the jury to have you know been uncertain. They quit knowing that he's going back to prison for 300 years.
01:48:07
Speaker
ah Yeah, and i I also think to the points that you were making before I think when you have a DA who gets kicked off the case because he's doing unethical things and you have a poor law enforcement relationship with the community the way I always talk to Brett from the prosecutors about this I'm like if you come into Baltimore versus you come into, I don't know, Northern Virginia where I live. You know, the cops have like 70%, 80% credibility walking the door. We believe everything they say over here in Northern Virginia. In Baltimore, it's like 25%. And you're like working your way up. Same thing with the LAPD. You have a larger hurdle for credibility. So I get that part of it.
01:48:48
Speaker
But I'm thinking about it just from the evidence in front of me trying to objectively look at it. you know I would have concerns for heart or any native in that area getting a fair trial. I would want to look at tunnel vision.
01:49:02
Speaker
um I'd want to ensure, just like the Cherokee Nation did, ah that he had money to fund his defense. But all that said, I i also think that all the evidence seems to point toward him. and you know stevens I think that's a big factor. Stevens being white also. He's the prime suspect, he's white, his DNA,
01:49:31
Speaker
excluded ah based on what they got. so go And nothing points away from him. That was what I've been saying like for the last two weeks. I'm like, this guy cannot be excluded. and mean He just can't. ah There's nothing to exclude this man. So now I want to ask whether Julia thinks we're crazy.
01:49:50
Speaker
No, I don't think you're crazy at all. I mean, there's there's some things that in terms of what I would look at that the jury wasn't able to consider. Like the raids and the detail. Exactly. Yeah. it's It's prejudicial. But in terms of behavior, and i'll and I'm going to stay in my lane and in you know Stick to what we do in terms of behavior he's. Needs to be prioritized as the number one suspect until he can be ruled out and as you just pointed out Allison he cannot be ruled out i do think he did it i don't i think it was.
01:50:29
Speaker
Certainly there are problems. I mean, it it just goes back to, you know, crime scene and documentation and making sure you're, you know, it also goes back to adjacent relationships that the local law enforcement have with the community. And do they trust them or do they not trust them? And if you come in with that distrust, you're going to believe all these things that it's um they could have done to set them up, to plant evidence, even when in some cases it would be completely implausible. You'd have to believe this to believe that. and yeah Like OJ all over again. Yeah. It's very important for law enforcement always to do things right, do it by the book, have standard operating procedures.
01:51:22
Speaker
um Yeah, that's another thing that stuck out to me. Like they really open themselves up by their procedures. Like you mentioned that the the way that they handled the tent. Well, like another thing that stuck out to me was when they went to the caves to collect evidence, there was evidence that they didn't pick up because they didn't think it was particularly important.
01:51:45
Speaker
Several weeks later, they interview a Girl Scout and she's like, oh, this piping was stolen. And then they remember that the piping was in the cave. They go back to the cave, but three months later, I'm like, that's like asking me as the defense attorney to drive a truck in there about how you grab the piping and drop it in there. So, you know, the question of whether I believe he did it versus what the jury should have done with the information they had at the time is I think those are really two different questions. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Conclusion: Embracing Vulnerability and Engagement
01:52:22
Speaker
I got one more question, which is totally off topic from Rosie. Rosie is asking Jason, do you have any advice for people to get to that place in life about no longer being disconnected from something? And I'm guessing you're making that point about negative things. I think the most important thing for me, my advice that I would give people is hang out with people who are willing to be vulnerable.
01:52:44
Speaker
and People who are willing to be vulnerable, whether they don't have to be vulnerable like me on the stage. They they could just be vulnerable with you. um I think being around vulnerability allows you to be more vulnerable. and Once you're able to let yourself be vulnerable and sort of drop away those needs to be perfect and precise, you can bring your whole self to places. And it's unbelievably, I think it has this awesome effect of disarming other people. um And you can probably see it in some of my interviews, helps them talk about things they wouldn't normally talk about. So I hope I answered your question. I hope that was the right thing I interpreted. So anyway, guys, the answer that was a great answer. Thank you.
01:53:31
Speaker
So we are going to go run now, but it's been a blast. We've got to go upload our recordings. Sorry for running so late, but Julia, this was so much fun. Thank you for having me. It's so illuminating and I hope it helped a lot of people that maybe were really unsure about this case. Maybe they have.
01:53:48
Speaker
Maybe we've changed a couple of minds or opened a few minds. Let's hope. Or maybe not. yeah But it certainly opened ours wider, and I appreciate that very much. Thank you for having me. It's an interesting case. I love doing this kind of work. It's my passion, so I was really happy to come on and talk with you both about it. Cool.
01:54:07
Speaker
And I'm going to throw my plug for the console podcast, which you can find wherever you get podcasts. And also you should check out the console Patreon where you can get early episodes. And I have a feeling some new things are coming for you soon. Vintage Villains podcast. And Allison also has a podcast called Ding Dong Darkness Time. And then, of course, me Silver Lining Sandbook podcast. We also have a Patreon and a Facebook group like the um unsubs called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. We would love you all to be a part of our community and yeah yeah bring us your ideas. And and there's a vintage villains group too, if you. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah.
01:54:48
Speaker
There's a vintage bill in Soiree and it's historical true crime, you know, anything prior to 1990. So feel free to suggest some cases there like to get all ah back in history. and or his name Well, washha I had to move it from 1980 because then I wouldn't be able to cover Pablo Escobar. And so I'm like, you know what, that's one of my favorite pieces. If 1990 is history, I'm gone.
01:55:16
Speaker
but You know, we're not getting any younger friends. We'll be good, everybody. will say It was great to see you guys. That was a lot of fun. I don't. Yeah, I had for some reason it's not letting. Oh, no. Do we wait here? Does he come back? Let's give him just a sec. Yeah. It's funny because this are we just is he still recording.
01:55:44
Speaker
he Yeah. Did Jason just laugh? Let's start a podcast. It made me leave, leave. That was so much fun. I had, I don't know what it was. Are you still recording? We're still recording. Oh, good Lord. So I left. Bye for real guys.
01:56:05
Speaker
I would like to thank you all for joining Julia, Alison, and I. If you'd like to join me for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener-driven Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, you can also join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings handbook.