Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Bonus - The Delphi Murders Verdict: Bearing Witness with Kevin Greenlee and Áine Cain
1.7k Plays1 month ago
On November 11, 2024, Richard Allen was convicted on all counts in the murders of 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams, two best friends who decided to take a walk in the woods in Delphi, Indiana. Kevin Greenlee and Áine Cain, the host of The Murder Sheet podcast, join me to discuss the resolution of the trial and our role as journalists to bear witness.
To donate to a cause cherished by the families of Abby and Libby:
https://abbyandlibbymemorialpark.org/
Contact me at [email protected].
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Bonus Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
This is a Silver Linings Handbook podcast bonus episode. I'm Jason Blair.
The Snapchat Murders: Technology and Crime Solving
00:00:16
Speaker
Yesterday was the day. Richard Allen was convicted on all counts in the 2017 Delphi, Indiana murders of 13 year old Abby Williams and 14 year old Libby Germain.
00:00:32
Speaker
Without the ingenuity and the courage of 14-year-old Libby, investigators still may not have solved the 2017 murders of her and her best friend Abby.
00:00:45
Speaker
Libby's quick instinct to turn on her cell phone camera and record the menacing looking man approaching her in abey and on an old abandoned railroad bridge in Delphi, Indiana provided a damning piece of evidence against Richard Allen, the man who was just convicted yesterday of their kidnapping and murders.
00:01:09
Speaker
The crime was initially dubbed the Snapchat murders, and its resolution is a testament to the power of modern technology in solving crime. But that same technology that allowed Libby to disseminate pictures of her abductor has broken down many barriers to entry in publishing that have ushered in an error of reckless amateur investigations and conspiracy theories that have shaken public faith in the justice system.
Impact on Families and Community Reactions
00:01:40
Speaker
The victims' families in this case were revictimized. Innocent people were accused of crimes with no basis in fact. True crime fans and web sleuths misled and were misled. The justice system was nearly derailed.
00:01:57
Speaker
But the family stood there with grace, and some journalists, attorneys, and other commentators like Kevin Greenlee, Ananya Cain of the murder sheet, and Brett and Alice of the prosecutors stood and held the wall in the pursuit of truth, honesty, and justice. Kevin and Ananya join me today for this bonus episode on the resolution of the case and the important role, in my words, that they played in bearing witness.
00:02:36
Speaker
Kevin and Anya, thank you for um having this conversation with me today. ah You know, this morning, one of my colleagues who doesn't follow the a Delphi case but knows that I care about it, said that one of the things that she had noticed was she that she was surprised by was the outpouring of emotions by um So many people related to this case and you know, I started following the case. um Really, I heard about it when it initially happened and started of truly following it during the um pandemic. And i I just know that a lot of people have been
00:03:20
Speaker
vested.
Emotional Responses to the Case's Resolution
00:03:21
Speaker
and You guys talked about this in your last episode about the law enforcement officers, ah the prosecutors, the families being vested in a resolution, but I also think the journalists, the listeners, the the viewers, and I was just curious what it's felt like for you guys and what kind of reactions to it you've seen.
00:03:43
Speaker
Um, that's a really good question. And yeah, you're definitely right. I think this case has touched a lot of people's hearts. A lot of people feel very emotionally invested in it for good or for ill. And, um, I guess like we've definitely seen that. I feel like I love our listeners, um, from our emails and from our Facebook group, uh, people have been super respectful and, and centering, you know, mourning the victims and noting that At the end of the day, um even if there's been a resolution, that doesn't mean that there's closure for anybody. It's it's these girls are still, have been horribly murdered and and nothing changes that, but it is a time for reflection on what was lost and who these girls were. And and I think that's super important. And then I guess for us on a personal level is I can, I can speak for myself and Kevin can tell you how he, he feels, but, um,
00:04:33
Speaker
I just i i feel a little bit numb i don't really um it doesn't like it feels like it's over but it also kind of doesn't i keep on thinking like. Hope well gotta figure out a the line or you know like you like almost like it's still going on in my mind um so i. I'm just kind of confused i think. Yeah that's about where i'm at is is is' hard to process.
00:04:56
Speaker
For the last four or five weeks, every moment of our time has been pretty strictly controlled and regimented and has been focused in some way on this case. We're specifically on this trial and now it's over. So it's it's difficult.
00:05:14
Speaker
to process and think about and realize and I'm very gratified that the verdict was rendered and I feel satisfied it was the correct verdict and justice was done and I just wish there was more that could be done because nothing can be done to bring those girls back so I'm I'm happy where we are and I'm grateful for all the people who worked so hard for this result despite facing awful obstacles including people online just saying terrible things about them.
Accountability in True Crime Media
00:05:53
Speaker
But I'm sad that the effort had to be made and I'm sad that we've lost these girls forever.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. You know, what you guys both said made me think of something that, you know, you, the three of us, Brett and Alison, the prosecutors, and others have all been a part of, in addition to covering the case, we've been a part of this fight.
00:06:17
Speaker
to hold creators within our community, to hold our community of true crime creators accountable for the way that we cover this case. And some days it felt like a daily war and all all that energy was going into it. And part of the reason why that energy was going into it was for truth.
00:06:41
Speaker
uh, for, for justice to have honesty for the listeners, but also for the girls. And I felt very much like I was elated. I could feel the tears well up in my eyes and, and I was elated in part because um i didn't I wanted the girls to have justice. I did not want the people who were participating in all these bad behaviors to have a win that would harm the families, that would harm our broader community. But after that moment, I felt like I ran into a brick wall.
00:07:21
Speaker
And in that brick wall was nothing but Abby and Libby. And um just really, it it it's allowed me to, I think, feel what it's all truly about, kind of like what you guys are saying. And that part of that confusion, I think for me, is we've been fighting this battle and we've been fighting for this justice and now we can sit with them, the victims, if that makes sense.
00:07:51
Speaker
ah Jason, that is so well said. and just like I can hear the emotion in your voice and I know how much this case has come to mean to you. But also, I just want to say, like you have kept us sane throughout this process. i mean The amount of times I think we were like losing our minds behind the scene because of some horrible behavior or just this feeling that the girls were getting lost in all of this. and The amount of times that you like helped us come back from the brink of just being like, what ah like Because at times it is compelled completely like oh no matter what we do there's all of this harm being done and there's nothing we can do to stop it and I just want i just want to say thank you because you've been a huge rock for us throughout this whole thing. and and You're absolutely right. We've been fighting for so long and so hard, but yesterday and some of the testimony of this trial and stuff was a reminder of why we fight.
00:08:46
Speaker
And we fight for people like Abby and Lippy so that the truth can be told about their lives and how they died.
Ethical Responsibilities of Defense Lawyers
00:08:55
Speaker
I'm going to say this. I think part of the the defense, and and here's the thing. I'm a big believer in defense attorneys. I love defense attorneys. Defense attorneys make it so that our system can work and people's rights are protected. So I will always, when people kind of come to me and say like, oh, you know, defense attorneys, it's like, no.
00:09:13
Speaker
you you're generalizing i do have a problem though when a defense strategy seems to be essentially like i'm blame other people for any manner of ills and spread conspiracy theories around that sort of unravels our shared reality, i i i just don't i don't feel like that's the truth and so therefore i'm biased against that i don't like it and i feel like,
00:09:36
Speaker
you know Getting people to kind of understand the truth throughout this process has been has been something that we've very very much taken seriously. but But in this case, it felt like it kind of came to a head in the courtroom where we were watching this strategy unfold where it didn't seem to be like grappling with any of the evidence or circumstances of of the day of February 13th, 2017. It really just seemed to be like,
00:10:01
Speaker
throw a bunch of stuff around and you know try to i don't know like kind of distract people. and so It was just kind of fascinating to see that go from the online sphere to the actual courtroom.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah. And first, let me say it's been a 2H3, right? You guys have kept me, i've I've dealt with a lot this year and you have kept me sane too. And um I'm grateful that I've been able to be helpful with you. I'm grateful that we've been able to walk together on this battle related to truth and and ethics in our profession. um And One of the things that all of this reminds me out of is some earlier conversations that we've had about the defense strategy, because I also believe that defense attorneys are crucial to protecting the Constitution.
00:10:55
Speaker
i I think defense attorneys wrap themselves in the Constitution and they should because ah not only ah can our individual rights not be protected without them and their role, um I don't think we as a broader public can have trust in our justice system if there are not fierce advocates.
00:11:16
Speaker
But part of my real challenge here is I think that sometimes, because people have an and important role, and that important role is to ensure justice and protection for clients, that they think that that end, which is enormously important, justifies any means. And I don't think that is i don't think that's responsible.
00:11:38
Speaker
And I look at this case and I think of the victim's families and the harm that's come to them, the accusations against them, the callousness they've dealt with. I think about all the other people, whether it was people doing side-by-sides on Reddit or names that were thrown out there um or people that the defense attorneys accused with what the judge has decided had no be basis in fact. um I think about who ah I think about ah the man who committed suicide. I think about ah his friend who took the leak. I think about Mark Cohen, who is the one who reported to you. And even some of the people that we call cranks whose lives have been destroyed. And I i i don't squarely put all of that
00:12:28
Speaker
um on the defense, but I put an enormous amount. And I think there has to be a way that you can righteously and vigorously defend people without destroying other people. i I don't know what that path is, but I do think those of us who are creators should not indulge in these games because if we do not give them oxygen, and I know this is turning into a bit of a speech by me,
00:12:55
Speaker
If we did not give defense attorneys who behave unethically any oxygen, there's no point to these games that they play.
Truth in Journalism and Reporting
00:13:04
Speaker
They're not going to get a Netflix show. They're not going to poison the jury pool. And so when you say anya that you felt like you were alone,
00:13:13
Speaker
ah By fighting this battle, you became the people that people could come to to find the truth, to get their answers question or to get their questions answered, to clarify things. And you can see it in the comments and questions online right now, where people are asking for clarification about things, where people are learning new things. And if you hadn't stood there, if you hadn't stood in that breach and taken all that crap and fought so hard, there wouldn't be anyone for anyone ah Anyone here for those people to explain the truth. so Thank you. We really appreciate that.
00:13:51
Speaker
and i'm like you know i'm I'm like, I just feel bad for the people whose time has been wasted by you know people kind of trust creators and then sometimes they get sucked into this thing and they're just left after an outcome like this feeling confused because they were told again, there was no way he was going to get convicted because the case was so weak. and It's like- That makes me angry. People want it. It makes me angry that there are people out there, including people who are attorneys.
00:14:18
Speaker
and who go out and do these YouTube or true crime podcasts or what have you and to be blunt lie or misrepresent things and in order to attract an audience they actively lie and seek to undermine people's faith in the system.
00:14:36
Speaker
And they try to create an impression of this being possible to have a a guilty verdict or the system is corrupt everybody is lying everybody's hopelessly corrupt in indiana or delphi.
00:14:49
Speaker
and They're undermining something very important and special, and they're doing it for no good reason, and they are hurting a lot of people, and they're disillusioning people, and there are people out here in the world today who believed that this verdict was the result of corruption or lies or misdeeds, and they've been misled.
00:15:14
Speaker
and they've lost faith in the system for no good reason. I want to say this. None of these people are reporters. None of these people are investigative journalists. It's not like they've done the work and talked to a lot of people and compiled a huge story of corruption and like proved anything. it's just there They're commenting based on vibes and they're misrepresenting stuff and I have contempt for all of them. Yeah. and i I would say to them, I don't i don't play lawyer. so Perhaps you shouldn't always play journalists. And I think... you
00:15:49
Speaker
Richard Allen gave us the answer to the question of why they did it. And it's a really interesting moment in one of his confessions where he's confessing to Dr. Monica Waller, his therapist, and he he talks about how he confronted them on the bridge with the intent to sexually assault them, got spooked by the van going by, and later in that forced them across the creek. And he said he said that he was selfish.
00:16:19
Speaker
and that the girls died. because he didn't want to get caught so he could live. And I think so much of this, from the beginning of this crime, through the through the Redditors, through the creators, through the defense attorneys, has been driven by selfishness. And you know I know all my listeners are not in love with the fact that I have compassion for Richard Allen, but it is an absolute tragedy for him and the families that a man who wanted to confess
00:16:50
Speaker
For whatever reason, whether it's his family or whether it's attorneys, I don't know why, but a man who wanted to confess and verbally express that he wanted to keep the victim's families through going through this.
00:17:03
Speaker
um either didn't or wasn't able to. And i for me, I just think there's been so much selfishness and so little consideration for the pain that all of this has caused. Anya, there was one thing you said um in in your episode last night on the verdict, and it moved me to tears, and you you had said,
00:17:29
Speaker
something I had forgotten. And you had said that Abby had asked on the video that Libby had taken, Abby had asked Libby not to leave her. And then you, you choked up and you said, and they never left each other. And, um,
00:17:48
Speaker
I just, I kept thinking to myself, as I told you, and I will say it here, in in their afterlife, you and and Kevin never left them.
00:18:00
Speaker
And to me, that is the epitome of what journalism is, whether it's writing about Hiroshima or those of us who wrote about September 11th, we are here to bear witness, to tell the truth of what happened and the truth of the people. And I could not be more proud um to call you all my friends and my colleagues.
00:18:24
Speaker
Jason, that is so nice. and oh man um Now you're going to make me cry again. and I keep thinking I can't cry anymore about this case. um you know it's it's ah it's been I really appreciate that. i You're too kind. Honestly, I feel like you give us too much credit. I feel like we've just been people out in the cold losing our minds for a month. but i The one thing that made us, there were a couple of times we got so frustrated with the process that we were kind of considering, you know what maybe we'll just like peace out of here. and and And the thing that I kept thinking of was the families of these girls don't get that option. They don't get that privilege to just say, hey, let's just, let's take a day off. And these girls deserve to have people know what happened to them and who did it. And ultimately that the trial is about getting to that. And I just felt like we could not could not leave it.
00:19:23
Speaker
it would not be right after we've come this far. it's like you know and and and not and Not only that, but people there with agendas essentially lying about what was going on. It just felt like we we we didn't have the option of leaving.
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah. Well, but Anya, you did have the option. Anybody can walk away and you chose not to walk away. You know, I remember earlier this year when this case was becoming very heavy for me and you guys know this, I don't think I've talked to my listeners about this, but I had to pull out of all the social media groups and I had to get away from that. And through the encouragement of a friend, I went to um Delphi.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I walked the trails. And I walked to the bridge. And for me, I i came to peace with something inside of me related to it. And that rejuvenated um my energy for the case. But any of us could walk away. Any of us could walk away.
Community Support and Remembrance Efforts
00:20:28
Speaker
it's ah So I think you should acknowledge that you made a choice to stay. Just like we were talking about with Abby and Libby, you every day you made a choice to stay. So um I don't know, you should keep that in perspective. I don't think I give you um too much credit. I think it's hard to even articulate the credit that you guys deserve for this.
00:20:54
Speaker
um Just looking at all of the other creators who had money on their mind or had whatever, you could have chosen that path. You have bills to pay just like everyone else. um You could have gone on to find the next thing. I think maybe you should give yourself a little bit more credit. Well, thank you. You're you're very kind.
00:21:18
Speaker
Well, guys, I'm not even going to ask you what's next. I'm going to let you know. So i but I will I will simply ask, like, what are you guys hoping for for the next weeks and months for the families?
00:21:33
Speaker
I really hope they just get some time to process this together and just kind of take a sigh of relief. Hopefully, ah you know, just, or at least I know for them, it's not over. Um, there'll be appeals. There will be attempts at appeals. Um, Kevin is pretty confident that those are not going to go anywhere, but I mean, for the people who are at the center of this, who care the most about this, the families, I mean, that's, it's not, it's going to feel like.
00:22:00
Speaker
a thread, it's going to feel like something's coming back um in in a big way. and so for In that way, it's not over, but I hope they can at the very least take some time to be together, um you know have have have Thanksgiving, and and just at least feel that ah this this first crucial step in a way.
00:22:19
Speaker
Is done and that justice was done and that the people who worked on this case, whether we're talking about investigators or volunteers like Kathy shank or um the prosecutor, the prosecutorial team, um, I, they put, they put a lot into this and, and this outcome.
00:22:37
Speaker
I think reflects how much so many people cared about these girls and and seeing justice done after this horrific thing happened to them. so I hope they also feel like the outpouring of love from, I mean, we've heard from people from Australia, from Scandinavia, from i mean all over the world. um People care about Abby and Libby. People people know now that Abby and Libby were heroes and and that they helped solve their own case. and I hope they can feel some of that and and I hope that can counteract some of the negativity. Oh, that's a great point. I think that, them you know, I know the gag order continues and part of me is like, ah, the victim's family should have their voices back. But I also like one part of it, which is maybe it'll give them um
00:23:25
Speaker
a little bit of a little bit of um peace. And you guys, I i hope my my relationship with you has taught you one one one thing. And i hope I hope that you see in me that it is possible to feel love from a stranger.
00:23:45
Speaker
And I firmly believe that you can love people you don't know. And I hope that the families feel all of our love and all of your listeners' love. um And I hope we find ways to continue to show it to them.
00:23:59
Speaker
Absolutely. i so and i think I think these are families that have have strived to make a difference where they they have funds for getting scholarships for kids in that community. This is a beautiful park. People can donate to that and sort of keep the memory alive for these girls, both through education for other kids and through a beautiful space for kids to play safely.
00:24:23
Speaker
and and And I hope people support those efforts and continue to support them in the years to come. And I hope for the family's sake that the day will come when Richard Allen is forgotten, his face is not all over social media. And people just remember these girls and that they live and that their lives meant something. And there are ways for us to commemorate that and to honor that. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just You know, we say you have to be really careful about telling stories of victims lighting up the room. And Lord knows if I died, I didn't light up the room, guys. um You did.
00:25:06
Speaker
but why jason but That said, I really do think these two victims surely lit up the room and you can see it in the last moment on the videotape. There was something really special about them and I'll i'll put links to donate to the park in there and um You know, just encourage any of you guys who are listening, don't be shy to find ways to send them love and ah appreciation and support. And Kevin, I agree with you. Whatever Richard Allen's tale of life, whatever led him to that moment, his name really isn't the important name right now. And the important names are Abby and Libby.
Possibility of Redemption for Richard Allen
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. i i On some level, when I think about him, i I hope at some point he can come to terms with this and perhaps seek out you know fully fully explaining what happened and and taking ownership for what he did. um you know I think we can't have compassion for people who did horrible things. I think that's important. It's difficult, but it's important. But for me, um maybe it's Maybe it's me being Catholic, but ah you know forgiveness requires penance and preferably confession. It's not it's not something you know ah I really i feel like there needs to be.
00:26:41
Speaker
The minimum um and and that's that's taking ownership and accountability for one's actions and it seems that at some point he did try to do that. But um obviously it's not ultimately what happened and I think there is there is something um poignant about that being that impulse being thwarted however it happened.
00:27:01
Speaker
And um, you know, but I I agree you should be forgotten that the thing that should be distinct that what we should remain focused on is abby and libby and um Just how many people they touched in their short lives and the loss that is they should be having families they should be you know, uh, I think they would be out of college by now, I mean that there should be it's There's an emptiness there that that should be filled by these two beautiful souls and they're gone and it's it's it's a it's a disgrace and it's a tragedy because you know one man decided that he wanted to exert dominance over women that day, that that um these families have had to suffer ever since as a result of that selfish, selfish choice.
00:27:47
Speaker
yeah And you know one of the things, I don't know if you guys said this or someone else said this. I heard this or thought it. It's really hard to tell because it's been a blur. But you know in Indiana Police Superintendent Doug Carter said at a press conference several years afterwards that he believed, and people gave him a lot of crap, but he believed that the killer was out there and that they were listening and they had some semblance of a conscience.
00:28:16
Speaker
And he ended up being right. um Clearly, the confessions tell us that some part of Richard Allen wanted to um minimize the suffering of the families afterwards. And Brett from the prosecutors just made a beautiful point, not recently. This is maybe several months or a year ago. He said that when people are convicted of the most heinous things,
00:28:41
Speaker
they still have the opportunity at that moment to make the most of their lives. And I do think Richard Allen has an opportunity to confess and give the families any answers they want, to have penance, to go to prison and be the best citizen he can for the people who are in there. So I i think he still has a choice whether to be selfish or not, and I do hope he makes the right choice. I'm not holding out hope, um particularly with who's surrounded by him, but anya I echo your point. Not only does he have an opportunity for forgiveness, but it's not forgiveness I think he should seek. I think he should seek making the most of what's left of his life, because that's all he can do.
00:29:28
Speaker
I completely concur. And I think, you know, he described himself as a selfish coward and selfishness and cowardice are practices and behaviors. And he can choose at any time to do a brave thing and to do a selfless thing, which is to basically stop the nonsense and and admit in detail what he did and stop putting these families through.
00:29:54
Speaker
this farce, because the trial was a farce. um I think I really do question how exactly we got to the point where he was even going to trial, given some of what we learned about sort of his experience in prison and him exhibiting significantly worse symptoms every time his attorneys would come visit him. I mean, we'll probably never know, but I would love to know more about that whole thing. But yeah, I think um it's It's worth noting that just um it it's just that it's it's a tragedy all around, but yeah I do and don't want.
00:30:32
Speaker
any focus on Alan to be taking away from what we need to be thinking about with these girls. and i just i think one of the i mean The reason why this case has resonated with so many people is because they see themselves in Libby and Abby. Everyone's probably gone on a walk on a really beautiful day with their best friend. right I mean, this is an experience a lot of people have have had ah you know have had um and ah you know and they see themselves or their children or their loved ones and these girls and they really are, I feel like,
00:31:03
Speaker
You know i feel like a lot of people especially in indiana but certainly around the world. That's what attracted them to the case that's what they wanted to know what happened and why it was unsolved even though one of these girls briefly captured um an image of the killer on her phone and.
Commitment to Truth and Correcting Misinformation
00:31:21
Speaker
I just work we're gonna be dedicated even though the case is over to continuing to establish the true facts and the truth in this case i think there's a.
00:31:30
Speaker
I think Kevin and I told Kevin I'm like we're gonna be the sanitation department because there's been a lot of garbage strewn all over the streets and a lot of slime has been slopped all over everyone and you know what at the end of the day we want to clean that up because that is not fair to these girls it's not fair to the families it's not fair to anyone who worked on this case and nor is it fair to the people of Delphi.
00:31:52
Speaker
who have been labeled as residents of the most corrupt city in the world, which is just could not be further from the truth and is ridiculous. and so yeah We're going to be the sanitation department and that's how I feel we view our role going forward. Is that fair to say, Kevin? Yes.
00:32:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, yeah, the fight for the truth is is not over. And I've always believed that the truth is like a magnet. It will chase you no matter how far you try ah you tried to run away from it. so i think um and And I agree with you on that. like I think it's such a relatable story.
00:32:27
Speaker
Um, I, I posted in your murder sheet discussion group, which by the way, if anybody is not a part of you should join, um, it's on Facebook. I posted in there, uh, about Abby and Libby last night. And I woke up to the post and it had like 40 plus comments in the morning. And one of the most beautiful, uh, or, or, or, or the most beautiful comments to me were the ones who were taught where people were talking about who their Abby was and who their Libby was in their lives and um bless those girls. And I hope everybody can have an Abby and can have Libby in their lives. Somebody who's willing to sacrifice everything for you. ah Absolutely. and
00:33:17
Speaker
i was just I was just going to joke, we should stop recording before the bucket of tears under my desk fills. go
00:33:27
Speaker
i I think that sort of positivity is something, and this is why I love i love there's there is i always you know trash the internet and the internet has been terrible for true crime and whatnot, but there is a pop Positive community of people who are rational and and a lot of them may disagree. They might have different opinions on ah a wide variety of cases, but they can still come into cases like this and. Not be abusive and and be instead thoughtful and compassionate and I love seeing those discussions unfold. Kevin do you want to throw anything in there before we go?
00:34:01
Speaker
Nothing on you said it very well. Oh my gosh. That's always what you say. I used to, uh, I'm still emotional. So I, I, um, I feel like I'm just totally numb right now. Honestly, I'm just kind of like, wow, that happened. Um, and maybe it'll hit me in a month or something. I don't know. I'm like, I, I feel really, um, I feel really weird. Uh, it's just, I keep thinking we're going back, uh, and that it's not over. And so I keep on getting,
00:34:30
Speaker
anxiety about something that's that's done. So it's very it's very odd. And I think Kevin, you might be having something similar. Yeah, but it's over. It's over. It is over. It is. It is. Yeah. And it really was like a nightmare for a lot of people.
00:34:47
Speaker
um including those families and including all the people we're touched with. I mean, what I hope for us, right? We have power over what we can do. I hope we keep fighting for the truth. I hope we keep fighting for accountability in our community. I'm so honored to know you and Brett and Alice because I feel like you guys and and and there are others too. um There are people who do give to to who do care about um this sort of thing in ethics and true crime. and and Ethics and true crime isn't making sure everyone agrees on a case. It's about like what behavior is acceptable and should be considered okay for people to be doing in a real-life case versus what is what is not acceptable. and I would love to see just a growing movement of people who are saying, this is okay, this is not okay, and we're going to act accordingly.
00:35:40
Speaker
yep Yep, yep. It's what we all I think want. And and it's also a good point. Like Brett Nallis and I don't always agree on every case. I'm sure you guys and me don't always agree on every case. But what we agree on are truth, honesty, justice, right? Like we we agree on um the fundamental foundations of what can be a very, very positive community. So All right, guys, I'm going to let you go. um But um stay safe. Be good. Aw, you too, Jason. And again, we just want to thank you for everything. You've just been a tremendous, like, just bringing optimism and compassion to this situation. And we've been so burnt out at times. And I feel like you're the person who really helped us get through a lot and in this. Thank you so much. Go ahead.
00:36:41
Speaker
All right, guys, have a good one. All right, you too.
Invitation to a True Crime Event in Minneapolis
00:36:45
Speaker
Before I go, I want to invite all of you true crime fans to an event that we're going to be happening in Minneapolis, Minnesota on December 7th at 10 a.m. at the Hotel Ivy in downtown Minneapolis. There we're going to get together with podcasters for a live show. We're going to do a live investigation into a real case, have several panels and also have some fun.
00:37:08
Speaker
So if you're interested in true crime and you're in the area or you're willing to travel, come join us. You can find our group through the Silver Linings Handbook podcast website, and or you can visit our Facebook group, True Crime Podcasting in Action Minneapolis, to sign up for the event, which will cost you nothing. We're looking forward to seeing you.
00:37:31
Speaker
And if you'd like to join us for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener on Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, you can also join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings Handbook.
00:37:59
Speaker
I'm Jason Blair and this is the Silver Linings Handbook Podcast. We'll see you guys all soon.