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Bonus - The Disappearance of Christina White and the Lewis-Clark Valley Serial Killer, Part 3
7 Plays2 months ago
The search for a killer has expanded beyond the 1979 disappearance of Christina White and to murders that started in 1963 in Chicago and include mysterious drownings in North Carolina and California and three murders and one additional disappearance in the Lewiston, Idaho and Clarkston, Washington area. Allison Dickson and I are joined by Cathy Belben and Samantha Sawyer, researchers of The Snake River Killer podcast in this episode. We explore the clues left behind and why, if it seems so clear who is responsible, why the lone suspect has not been arrested.
To listen to The Snake River Killer podcast, hosted by Brandon Schrand:
https://www.snakeriverkiller.com/
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction & Guest Introduction
00:00:12
Speaker
This is the Silver Linings Handbook podcast. I'm Jason Blair. And this is Alison Dixon of the Vintage Villains podcast. And this is a true crime bonus episode.
Christina White's Disappearance
00:00:33
Speaker
This is the third part of our series on the disappearance of Christina White and the Lewis Clark Valley serial killer. In our last two episodes, we walked you through the mysterious April 1979 disappearance of 12-year-old Christina White from Assoten, Washington on the day of the town's fair. It's a mystery that more than 45 years later has not been solved, at least to the satisfaction of anyone who wants justice for the victims.
Lance Voss as Prime Suspect
00:01:03
Speaker
We also showed you how law enforcement has honed in on a prime suspect, a man named Lance Voss, who lived down the street from Christina and eventually became the stepfather of Christina's close friend, Rose.
00:01:17
Speaker
We also walked to you through how the first real clues about a solid suspect in k Christina's case came from nothing that happened in the Soten, but seven miles away at 805 Sixth Avenue in Lewiston, Idaho, where in September 1982, 21-year-old Christina Nelson, 18-year-old Brandi Miller, and 35-year-old Steven Parasol went missing from the Lewiston Civic Theater while Voss was there.
00:01:46
Speaker
Miller and Nelson were found dead two years later on an embankment off a road in a rural area 35 miles from the theater near Kendrick, Idaho. Parasol is still missing. We walked you through how Voss said he heard nothing that night. He also denied abducting Christina, although law enforcement officials would say that he later provided her, or later said that he provided her with a washcloth to cool herself just before she disappeared.
00:02:15
Speaker
That's something that his stepson Clint later said did not happen. We walked you through how the disappearances were later suspected to be related to the 1981 disappearance and murder of 22-year-old University of Idaho student Kristin David, who appears to have been abducted in late June of 1981 while riding her bicycle from Moscow, Idaho to Clarkson, Washington.
00:02:44
Speaker
Lewiston's Sister City, just on the other side of the Snake River. We also talked about how k Chris and David, like Brandy Miller, Steven Parasol, Christina Nelson, and Lance Voss, all had connections to the Civic Theater. We also talked about the 1987 death by suicide of Claudette Viola, another member of the theater who is Lance's mistress while he was married to Patricia Brennan,
00:03:11
Speaker
Lance found the body.
Introduction of Kathy Belvin and Samantha Sawyer
00:03:13
Speaker
Today we're joined by Kathy Belvin and Samantha Sawyer, researchers from the Snake River podcast, which we talked to you all about in the first two episodes. Kathy and Sam have conducted some amazing research along with the host of the podcast, Brandon Schrand, that we mentioned in the first two episodes. And we're so grateful for the two of you to join. I could sit here and sing your praises all day long, but I'm going to let you sing some of your own praises. So we'll go ahead and get started with Kathy. If you want to introduce yourself, that would be awesome.
00:03:48
Speaker
Sure. I'm kathy belvin and i've been working for the snake river killer podcast for I guess just about two years. I first contacted brandon because I was a listener and um, I was interested like a lot of people are in the classified ads and contacting him with some things that I thought I'd found And we got talking and soon enough. I it just made sense for me to join the team um, i've spent my life teaching high school I teach english and psychology including forensic psychology and of course i'm fascinated by all things true crime And by the legal process overall at sales All right. Um, i'm samantha. Sawyer. I am a graphic designer and photographer by trade um, but I got kind of involved with the snake river killer podcast, um, like kathy I messaged brandon kind of um sending him some
00:04:46
Speaker
things I noticed about some of the classified ads, um, we got to talking about how we could kind of partner up to do some merchandise sales and stuff like that for the podcast. Um, and somewhere along
True Crime Podcasting Community Collaboration
00:04:58
Speaker
the line it turned into me doing research. So it's been really fun. I, um, I've always been interested in true crime, but I would say my real kind of obsessions with it started during the pandemic. Um, and so I'm really,
00:05:14
Speaker
you know excited to be in this space and I'm happy to be part of podcasts and part of different shows that um you know work with victim advocacy and you know telling those stories. Awesome. This is what I really love about the True Crime Podcasting community is how it really brings together the hosts and you know the show creators with audience members who have an active interest in a lot of these elements. and you know helping to grow the show and make it ah you know more interesting or more meaningful or or just you know more informative through the audience feedback and participation. is's just I've seen it happen well here with the Snake River Killer podcast. I see it on the prosecutors. I see it with Jason's show. ah and I even had a lot of it with my shows. so This is just awesome. I love having you here.
00:06:04
Speaker
And the real, the real actual communities, that's what you're kind of getting at, Alison, because, you know, Kathy has been on before for our listeners episode last year in my episode on Ghost, Grief, and Love by Chris Sousais. Sam did the art for it. um You know, so many of the people who are part of our podcast communities contribute you know, bringing us story ideas and doing research and, you know, fighting to support victims and their families and find justice. And it's so cool to be able to do something together yeah as a community.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, and um before we continue on um with everything, again, we want to give shout outs and credit to, again, the Snake River Killer
Documentaries and Case Sources
00:06:53
Speaker
podcast. It's such an important source for what we're talking about right now. that um And also the documentary is Confluence in Cold Valley. And Kathy mentioned one earlier before we got on live, ah People Investigates also did an episode on this topic. And I believe those run on Max or Hulu. It's one of those two, because I was just watching them. I know you can buy the People Investigates episodes on Prime Video, which is where I've watched them. Oh, great. And that's where I've watched these as well. And of course, Detective Jackie Nichols and Gloria ah Crow-Boberts, um who have also done so much incredible investigation into this case.
00:07:29
Speaker
But before we get started with more questions and answers and everything with with you too, and we wanted to share some additional biographical information about Lance with the audience. And of course, you know, bring everybody up to snuff, so we're all on the same page when we start asking questions.
Lance Voss's Criminal Past and Activities
00:07:42
Speaker
um Also, as we mentioned in the last episode, Lance was one of three serious suspects in the 1963 murder of eight-year-old Diane Taylor in Chicago.
00:07:54
Speaker
Diane was abducted after leaving a YMCA where she was in a day camp and where Lance was a counselor. The two boys would later say that Lance ah was the last person seen with Diane whose battered and slashed body was found in an alley in a Chicago neighborhood.
00:08:11
Speaker
We also mentioned the strange 1972 death by drowning of Antoinette Anino. According to most accounts, Antoinette killed herself, but on that same night, Lance was arrested lurking outside the Willow Glen mortuary where her body was ah and where he was trying to break in with a 12-inch knife, a flashlight, and a camera. He told the officer who arrested him that he was going to see his girlfriend one last time.
00:08:38
Speaker
He was later charged and convicted despite ah giving the officer a fake address. and Then in August of 1973, Voss married his first wife in California.
Lance Voss's Life Transitions
00:08:49
Speaker
One story that Gloria heard from Voss's first wife years later was that one time when she asked him to clean the dishes, he grabbed the dishes, took them up into the hills and shot them instead of cleaning them. like guess That's one way to do it there.
00:09:04
Speaker
ah The next year in 1974, Voss divorced his first wife and one year later married his second wife and moved to Melba, Idaho, about 200 miles south of the Lewis-Clarke Valley. There, Voss worked at a Circle K grocery store at and at a seed plant ah and buying company. In 1977, Voss attended classes at Boise State University before moving to the Lewis-Clarke Valley in 1978. That would be one year before k Christina White's disappearance.
00:09:35
Speaker
and After a year of living in Lewiston, Voss moved to a sultan where in 1979 he bought his own home, began dating and living with Patricia Brennan, and by April, Christina White had disappeared. and At the time of when Christina disappeared, Voss was employed as a mechanic at Omark Industries, a maker of precision cutting tools.
00:09:57
Speaker
The Omar plant was located at 2299 Snake River Avenue in Lewiston.
Investigation Challenges with Lance Voss
00:10:02
Speaker
The Omar plant plant closed in 1985 and is now a Superfund site. Lance eventually found his way to the Lewis-Clarke Valley where he became an active in the theater. ah He met Rose and Clint's um mom, Patricia, and dated her ah for a bit before marrying her.
00:10:20
Speaker
In 1988, after the disappearances and murders of the Lewis-Clarke Valley, um Voss began taking classes 45 miles north at Washington State University in Pullman. ah Soon after, he's at a party with a local patrolman where he asks about the cases of Christie, Brandy, and Stephen, according to the Snake River Killer podcast.
00:10:42
Speaker
In the early 90s, Voss graduated from WSU, and investigators asked Voss to sit down for another interview, and he agrees, but this time he retains an attorney. Then Voss refused the interview and polygraph, and his attorney had no interest in speaking to investigators anymore, and that any attempted contact would be considered harassment.
00:11:07
Speaker
ah Voss threatened ah to sue the police. Investigators ah ran a voice stress analysis, and the analyst believes Voss was indicating deception and knowledge of the case. Make of that ah what you will. Years later, Voss's attorney, who has since died, said Lance Voss was one of the most unsettling individuals he had ever met, and he believed that he had been responsible for the murders in the Lewis-Clarke Valley.
00:11:33
Speaker
In 1993, the police publicly ruled Steven Pearsall out as a suspect. In many respects, law enforcement naturally viewed him as someone who could be responsible because he disappeared on the same night. And friends told them that Pearsall attempted to ah appear to be a gender and ah asexual orientation minority or somewhere on the section or somewhere on the asexual spectrum.
00:11:58
Speaker
In 1998, Voss is again interviewed by investigators about the disappearances as well as by a task force looking into several linked killings in Spokane, Washington. Voss agrees to give his DNA, but only for the purposes of ruling him out in the Spokane killings. A month later, the police say he is no longer a suspect in the Spokane killings.
00:12:22
Speaker
In 2000 and 2001, Patricia Brennan and Voss began selling their properties in Washington State and began registering to vote in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. In 2001, the Lewiston Police Chief and the Assoten County Sheriff's Office say they asked for an outside review of the cases.
00:12:43
Speaker
In 2002, Voss declared bankruptcy in North Carolina, seeking Chapter 13 reorganization. But as a part of that, he was forced to sell, which we'll go over in a moment, the Dome House in Clarkston, Washington.
00:12:58
Speaker
Between 2003 and 2007, several areas and homes linked to Voss were searched with ground penetrating radar. At one point, Detective Nichols collected a horse that had died from a local vet and dropped it in the Snake River to simulate where Christina's body may have gone.
Ongoing Investigations and FBI Involvement
00:13:18
Speaker
The investigators in this case have been unbelievably tireless, and that's just one of many examples. In 2011, the documentary Confluence was released. In 2012, a 16-year-old girl named Kayla Campbell drowned in a pond near where Voss lived at the time in Mint Hill, North Carolina. Voss was brought in for questioning by the police in North Carolina and the FBI.
00:13:45
Speaker
Eventually, that death was ruled an accident. But we know at the moment, the FBI, both in Lewiston, North Carolina, and other places are actively investigating for us. And in fact, Alison, I don't know if I told you this, but when I took my trip to Lewiston in 2023,
00:14:06
Speaker
And I was staying at a but hotel, it was a Holiday Inn, that happened to be right across from the residents, ah they call it Resident Agents Agency, it's like the regional field office of the FBI under a larger field office. They were interviewing people right then, that week related to the case, right across from my hotel.
00:14:30
Speaker
and um In the documentary Cold Valley is released. As a part of the investigation, a couple of other disturbing instances come up. Gloria Lynx Voss to the 1968 kidnapping and murder of an eight-year-old girl named Diane Taylor, who was dumped or who was abducted and held for several days before being dumped in the alley behind houses in Chicago. After Gloria contacted the Chicago Police Department, they reopened the investigation and exhumed Diane from her grave.
00:15:07
Speaker
Gloria was able to find out that Lance at the time was one of three serious suspects in the case. Investigators also discovered an account of a real estate agent who says she had a strange encounter with Voss who also had a real estate license while he was in Lewiston and Clarkston. He contacted her to sell his home on 3rd Street in Soughton. That's the home he was not living in that we talked about in the first two episodes. um He insisted on showing her the basement. And when they were walking through the house, she turned around and noticed he had something in his hand and was ready to strike her.
00:15:51
Speaker
Voss put the item down, she said, and asked how many people knew she was there. And she told him, so quite smartly, several people. He suddenly lost interest in showing her the basement. Cement work was done on the basement by Voss at some point. Law enforcement dug up the floor in the basement and cadaver dogs were brought in. It's unknown what, if anything, was found during that search.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I think that covers, Allison, most of the background we wanted to throw in about Voss. Anything else you want to throw in before we dive in with Kathy and Sam? No, I think i think that covers the gamut pretty well and and I'm sure more will come up as we talk to these two here.
00:16:34
Speaker
So one of the things, Sam, Kathy, I want to throw out to you, I'm very tempted to dive right into the case. But I feel like so many times when we do stories like this, it's really easy to just sort of jump into ah the suspect and the crimes. And we don't talk a lot about the victims. And I think it does a disservice to a lot of true crime podcasts. One, you know we're missing out on the you know it's The reason why at least I care about these cases is it's the valuable human lives that we we lost and the impact on families. But I also think an important part of understanding any crime, particularly an unofficially unsolved crime, is understanding the victimology too.
00:17:22
Speaker
But I really wanted to just start asking you guys a little bit about going back to Diane Taylor and Antoinette and Nino. What do we know about the victims, their personalities, and their lives before they either died or i disappeared? Sam, do you want to start?
00:17:41
Speaker
Sure, I can. I know at least with Antwina Anino, she was very involved with her like high school
Victims' Lives and Personalities
00:17:51
Speaker
theater group. She was you know more of an artsy type student. I believe there was even a photo of her in the paper and passing out programs for the high school. Can't remember if it was a play or a musical that they were doing.
00:18:05
Speaker
So, um, she was also part of the photography club, um, and had an interest in photography and cameras. Um, you know, and I think other than that, she was just probably a bright, vivacious, bubbly California team. Right. Right. How about Diane? Do you guys know much about Diane Taylor? She was only eight years old, so it's.
00:18:35
Speaker
so much of life. It's really hard to say she was an only child and so some people do attribute her to being someone who was kind of attention seeking, not in a negative way but just you know wanted to be around people and wanted to be friendly with people.
00:18:57
Speaker
um She grew up in the I believe it was the Austin neighborhood of Chicago and um I think by all accounts was just kind of a bit of a you know, kind of a latchkey kid at the time and you know spent The time that she could at the YMCA and other times, you know at home or with friends um but like you said she was she was only eight years old, so I Yeah, you know, it's so funny. So much of what I've read about her was on the day um the day she disappeared, but she had so much personality. It sounded like when she, you know, went to the candy store as her friends or was bouncing around the YMCA. But I got a kick out of the fact that the last known thing she did was kick a boy in the shin. I was like, and yeah, she she had a spicy personality. It sounded like. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:52
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I think that's ah also, again, the other part of that only child, you know, mentality probably is like, I'm in charge here, buddy. um or But yeah, she was a, she really seemed like a of a fun, you know, an interesting little girl.
00:20:08
Speaker
but But it's interesting, too, of noticing like what seems to connect all of these people when we look at Kristin David, Brandy Miller, Kristina Nelson, and Steven Pearsall.
Victims' Connections to Arts and Voss
00:20:20
Speaker
Maybe, well, I don't know about Kristina White. she's She's a little different in this in this aspect, but the they all seem to be connected by the arts in some way, which I find pretty fascinating. And I don't i don't know if that's intentional. I don't know if that's something I would ask. I i would ask Julia maybe in in the next episode, but curious if that's something that stuck out to you too a lot. Definitely. um And I think that, I'm not sure that it would have explained Lance's behavior except that it would have, all of these victims were people that he probably knew.
00:20:58
Speaker
which I think is interesting with the exception of Antoinette. But then again, we don't know for sure. Like Sam pointed out, there is a picture of her in the paper folding programs for high school play and a good possibility that a suspect had seen that, you know, or even attended plays or somehow been connected in a way that we just haven't uncovered.
00:21:21
Speaker
Um, you know i've never give up on on trying to find connections between the victims and And lance because I do think and it's one reason why I think it's so important that we continue to tell the story is that I think there are people out there that with enough encouragement might come forward and reveal things that haven't been exposed yet for example Jason you mentioned that lance attended washington state university I was there at the same time I graduated from Wazoo in 1990 and Lance would have been there. We would have overlapped by at least a year. Now, I don't remember him, but someone might. you know When Brandon went back to the library, he spoke with a librarian there who did remember him and recalled his behavior. ah we know that he We know he was interested in photography,
00:22:12
Speaker
And at the time, um this was pre-cell phones, of course. So people weren't snapping their pics on their smartphones. They were hiring these guys that we called the picture guy. And sometimes it was a woman, but they would come to fraternity parties, right? And take roles and roles and roles of film that people who attended the party could later look at proofs and order pictures. So one thing I've often wondered was, could he have been employed by one of those companies and attended parties?
00:22:42
Speaker
um for Right, because and also interesting too that Antoinette Anino had the interest in photography and was in her photography club. Right. And that is that is interesting indeed. And it's also known that Lance and there is a picture that exists of him participating in one of the WSU music groups. I can't remember if it was a band or symphony.
00:23:04
Speaker
And again, I think that with enough encouragement there may be people who remember him and You know just a matter of getting people to talk and share things Someone somewhere might say the right thing that not even realizing that they're revealing something that's elemental to one of these cases Yeah. You know, I mean, I may be overly optimistic about that, but i I honestly think that like Jason said, one of the beauties, and you pointed out one of the beauties of the podcasting sphere is that it is such a great way to reach people who might otherwise never speak up, might never, you know,
00:23:49
Speaker
Realize that they have information. I mean I think about true crime bullshit and how people have come forward with information that has um Helped in the investigation. Yeah that's one of the reasons why I'm involved is I love solving problems and digging up information and I because I want to find justice for these people Christina and I are only six months difference in age and Yeah, you know, I was a girl who rode my bicycle around the neighborhood. I had a creepy friend, you know, a friend whose dad was creepy. And Sam can relate. Yeah, i mean maybe we all did. I mean, yeah, but
00:24:30
Speaker
and But I mean, yeah, in that era and at that time, I feel like you know we had that freedom to be out in the world and doing a lot of things. And we sort of had to be very cognizant of things like that. that Is this person creepy? Do we stay, you know? and and you know and especially around this time in the late 70s when we're starting to come to terms with the fact that there are dangerous people in the world, that you know there were predators out there. um And being young and coming to terms with that is just, it's hard. I mean, I found myself kind of reflecting a lot on that with the recent Delphi case that's currently in court. um and And thinking to myself, the those those two girls lived out my worst nightmares as a kid at their age. And knowing, yeah, that Christina too,
00:25:16
Speaker
It's just good luck. I was um I was pretty naive as a kid, you know, and I think it's it could have been me, right? What I I don't know that I would have fought back I don't know that I would have screamed if someone's dad did something He was a grown-up. That's you know, um, so I think um I I mean, I really feel Like just a real kinship with christina because of our similar ages because we grew up in that era because like her I was riding my bike around the neighborhood just being a kid and Luckily the bad thing didn't happen to me and can I use? What I have in terms of resources and research and intelligence To to be a voice for her because she can't be that voice anymore right now
00:26:03
Speaker
Yeah, and one of the one of the things that's interesting to me about each of these victims in this case that if you look at the days before they disappeared or they were murdered. You almost get the impression they didn't even ah even in the instances where we know their last few hours or you get the impression that they didn't see it coming.
00:26:27
Speaker
You know, they weren't fearful. It wasn't, um you imagine in each of these crimes, ah whether it's picking up Kristen David on the highway or whatever happened to Kristina White where she disappeared without screaming or a fight or or whatever got Kristina Nelson or Brandy Miller into the theater that, you know,
00:26:55
Speaker
some amount of deceptive charm was used or, you know, oh, yeah. Yeah. And it, um you know, one of the things that i I what I found to your point about true crime bullshit is, you know, the number of people have come forward with near misses in that case. And I actually think in this case, too, a number of people have come forward because of the publicity with what could very well be near misses.
Lance Voss's Deceptive Traits
00:27:23
Speaker
I wanted to ask both of you, given what you know about Lance, ah do you think that he's someone who would be capable of deceptive charm? Do you think he exhibits that personality trait to be that Svengali type? I don't. Can I say Abso-fucking-lutely? I mean... Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we know for a fact that he would he was literally an actor.
00:27:52
Speaker
true. Very good point. Very good point. um So he he took on the role of other people. I mean, in one play, I think he even played a killer. Yeah. our so an oldly He through a period, at least in the 80s and 90s, where he was shooting off letters to the editor. and And I spent a lot of time reading about those and reading some forensic linguistic stuff. And And just going through and I know sam did this too and just identifying how many negative and you know, even sometimes violent words that he used and So I do think that he would been capable of of putting on different personas To get what he wanted. I mean, I I think that's part of being a psychopath and being a narcissist if those diagnoses applied to him is
00:28:47
Speaker
is using whatever charm or maybe anger or whatever personality characteristic get you what you want in the moment. Well and certainly Allison to to answer from my side of the fence.
00:29:04
Speaker
If you listen to some of the stories that are told about him, his interactions with people in the theater, his ability to convince a young woman there to have an affair with him when she knew he was married to somebody who was around and that everyone else in the group would find out about it, um that story of him coming up to the police officer at the party yeah and asking about the cases, that is like very charming, high risk taking,
00:29:34
Speaker
manipulative, you know, colorful behavior. And when you listen to him in the interrogations, and I think Sam pointed this out, that he has this like aw shucks kind of like way about him. Yeah. Didn't he say something like, Oh, I guess I'm in trouble now or something like that. I remember hearing things like that. Yeah. Oh, all sorts of folks. He literally says golly G. Yes, literally says golly G. And he's like golly G. I don't know. Right.
00:30:01
Speaker
and And so, i you know, you see those characteristics and I think it's easy as an outsider to look at someone like him and view them as they must walk in the room and it feels like a demon has entered. But if you have successfully let's throw out the murders and let's say, you know, we just know the other stories about him. If you've successfully navigated your life that far and still have people in it who are willing to let you into their clubs and their groups and their organizations. And in some cases, when you have this cloud hanging over you, you must be a charming person. You must be a very charming person. I suspect I would probably like him if he were my neighbor.
00:30:47
Speaker
I mean, and and given to that, it just seems like people his in his family are willing. I mean, that's just typical of families, but you definitely don't see this family looking to turn on him um either. But ah another thing, too, is like that clever audacity that he has with the um newspaper um classifieds. But and um one thing I wanted to mention, too, because this was probably the part of the Snake River podcast. Way more clever than the Dome House.
00:31:16
Speaker
ah Yeah, yeah, we'll get to the dome house. But and ah Brandon went over his discovery of the ah notes plus class assignment, the writing assignment that he wrote for a classroom supplemental, um which ah we didn't talk about it and mine on here. That's that's when he was teaching a student that students write supplemental That's right. Yeah. and He set up this scenario of i what is it being able to tell the like tell what someone's like by their picture, or their appearance or something. But the scenario that he wrote was so like graphically referring to him dominating and killing someone. Somebody else can explain this better than I can right now, but it was one of those revelations that was like, this man is putting himself completely out there.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, there is actually and there is a theory out there and I'm not saying anybody buys it, but they it but it's, you know, they believe it's a plausible theory that imagine an innocent Lance Voss who is has the personality that is so apparent um still just decides I'm going to mess with everyone.
00:32:36
Speaker
yeah and I am going to put in classified ads with codes that are reference to these things. I am going to write things that lead people down rabbit holes. Regardless of how you look at it, there's there's a common thread in my opinion of this sadistic behavior. Because even if he's not responsible for it and he's still doing these things, it's really sadistic to to do it and leave these this trail of clues, but to have also not done it and leave these trail of clues is so sadistic. Agreed. It speaks to as someone who has a devious mind, that's for sure. um Now, what can you tell us, ah Kathy or Sam, ah do we know about what happened to the families of the victims?
Emotional State of Victims' Families
00:33:28
Speaker
like where Where are they kind of all now given where when this all happened?
00:33:33
Speaker
Sam, do you know? Well, we're in a group chat with Gloria. That's true. We do say, we do say really close with Gloria. She's She's kind of our our beacon, I would say, throughout throughout all this. She's kind of who I ever run my gut checks through, or anytime I'm kind of questioning myself or you know our motive, she's kind of who I talk to. Oh, that's good. and I do know and Brandon has been in some contact with Christina's sister, Carlin, and she's talked to us a little bit.
00:34:11
Speaker
uh, Diane Taylor sister, um, has also talked to Brandon a little bit. Um, but, um, as far as other family, it seems like, or, you know, friends or just anyone who was close to these victims, it seems like anyone who Brandon has attempted to reach out to is still just so hurt and so just not past what happened that they're not even in, you know, positions or in, um, they just can't talk about it yet. yeah just And it leaves a mark on generations, you know, I think so. And I think particularly a case like this that, you know, we're, we're, we're talking about a lot of unsolved cases that eventually sort of get tied together. Um, and a,
00:35:09
Speaker
probably a bit of a lack of hope that they'll ever come to resolution. And so you think about it, why would you want to open up a wound that that you've closed if you don't really believe it'll come to resolution?
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's the tough part, you know? Yeah. So at the end of the last episode, we showed an image and discussed a classified ad that Jason deciphered that included the names of Christina, Kristen, Brandy, Christina, and Steven.
00:35:40
Speaker
ah Without using any two letters twice in a 25-word ad, you can find the words Stephen Pearsall, Miller, Nelson, David, and Christina White. and If you're on the YouTube ah live right now, you can see a picture of that, and I'll also have pictures of it on the um Facebook.
00:35:57
Speaker
um and Instagram, the last names of the three victims whose bodies were found and the full names of the two who are still missing were included in this ad. um Can you tell us about um Lance's writings and other clues that people have latched onto? and you know I'm really particularly interested in in that part of the rabbit hole and sort of finding these these codes that he's leaving around. Especially since you guys were the ones who helped us figure out we should try to crack these codes. so I got to give me you a lot of credit for yeah even identifying how weird some of the
Coded Classified Ads Linked to Voss
00:36:34
Speaker
ads are. And I have a couple more of them up here too. Sam, you've spent more time with the ads than I have. Yeah, they're definitely weird. I, I think what's most crazy about the ads, um, not to go off on a tangent here, but just to kind of like calculate the amount of money alone that he would have spent on these classified ads just seems in
00:36:58
Speaker
And because there's so many they're so wordy and they run for long lengths of time a lot of the time. So I think that alone kind of, I don't know, kind of further proves the kind of sadisticness that you were talking about earlier, Jason, that, you know, if this is just all a fun game for him, like he's invested a lot of money to be, you know, kind of a sick individual, right?
00:37:25
Speaker
But with the ads themselves, we find um a lot of a lot of the times they kind of fall into three categories. It's either a vehicle ad, a ad a like a lost um or found pet ad, or some sort of um like a pet for sale ad. But mostly what we see a lot of is vehicles and um animals, mostly dogs.
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah, this guy's lost... Well, we said in the first episode, when you guys weren't here, this guy's been around way more dead bodies, been the last person to see more dead bodies than I could possibly imagine, right? But he's also lost more dogs.
00:38:17
Speaker
Found more dogs than you could possibly imagine. And he's apparently some, yeah, sort of a ah cat or kitten dealer. Oh, he was a kitten dealer?
00:38:28
Speaker
That's what it seems like dad Yeah, there were a lot of cats too. I mean I can see giving away a cat in my lifetime but multiple and some of the ads like one of the ones that sam and I found was posted on an anniversary of diane taylor's death and makes reference to um What was it sam? It was a a manx And ah oh, yeah, I don't have that one Also, there's way more even beyond what we have here. oh yeah An interesting thing was that the Manx and Calico ad was printed in one form and then it was corrected. and i mean somebody He had to call down and correct it and the correction didn't change the content, it just changed a spelling or something. but The spelling, yeah.
00:39:26
Speaker
Well, I was just going to say it's the same thing. There were two changes that were made into the ad that we have on the screen right now. Uh, after the first day of running, including misspelling the last name of Dave Vander does who's his friend.
00:39:42
Speaker
It was the it was then in every other edition of the ad run, it was misspelled as it is here as V A N D E R S O E E S. And then also, I think with counseling, yeah two L's were in counseling and the I was removed in the change. So you have to believe that it's who intentionally changes their classified ad to make it wrong and more expensive.
00:40:13
Speaker
And so, you know, I think a lot of people who are, if it was a typo, who's going to call the paper and fix it? Right. Well, but the thing about it that's interesting is when I've seen changes in his ads, it's always changing from it being right, the spelling being correct to it being wrong.
00:40:33
Speaker
which makes me sort of feel that he submitted it incorrectly because it's a puzzle. And then some kind of copy editor at the paper is like, ah, you misspelled counseling. Let me fix that. And then he calls it and says, no, I did that on purpose. Right. Right.
00:40:51
Speaker
It's incredible. i mean and Like you said, while I had a um ah job writing advertisements for Trading Post and Autotrader Magazine way back in the 90s, people could be very, very specific about what they put into their ads. um and A lot of times, you just youre roll with it and you let them know, this is you've repeated back exactly as they said, um as long as you get the format, right you're okay. so Um, did they specifically ask you to change them to misspell words though? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. They would not do that, but there were some things that just didn't make a whole lot of sense or probably wouldn't help them sell, but it is just one of those things. I think as the writer, you're just kind of going, Oh, okay. Well, well, speaking of which let's walk through a couple of these yeah guys. Are you guys familiar with this one? The found colon German shepherd on snake river Avenue followed by Lance. and Oh,
00:41:49
Speaker
Tell me about it. Yeah, the found German Shepherd one is pretty interesting because what we see is on in the March 3rd ad when Christina goes missing, it's a lost dog. But this ad and comes out, what, just four days? There's another one. Yeah. that Let's see. This one is the one you're thinking of. Yeah. Yep.
00:42:11
Speaker
yeah so and then when kristen david Yeah. And on the anniversary of Chris and David's body being found, then we have a found German Shepherd ad. Something else kind of worth noting, um like we said earlier, a lot of these ads are pet ads, either you know dogs or cats. And from what we can tell, Voss had the humor of a seventh grader yep ah be kind of kind of has the brainworks of the 15 year old boy. So if you kind of deduce this to 15 year old boy humor, you know, in a way, is it him calling these girls, you know, bitches and pussies in a way.
00:42:52
Speaker
Um, right because all we see is dog ads. We see a cat ad. I even saw, um, an ad for a rooster, which, you know, again, 15 year old boy humor is that, you know, a cock kind of thing. So we do see a lot of this kind of immature through lines throughout his writing that you're able to kind of find where it's, like I said, it just kind of seems like a little boy and junior high roader. What is the story behind this one?
Suspicious Afghan Hound Ad
00:43:25
Speaker
The significance of it. I know it was- Because somebody bred Afghan hounds. Wasn't one of the um victims or Voss himself involved in the breeding of Afghan hounds at the time. They were like a popular dog, I think, at that time period. not me and Yeah.
00:43:44
Speaker
What's weird about this ad specifically is I believe two two or three years prior to either of these ads coming out, he had an ad for a six-year-old Afghan hound. That's right. Then it's in the paper as Afghan bitch and now it's a three-year-old dog and he's charging $75 for a Spain fee.
00:44:08
Speaker
One would argue that three years old might be a little old to be spaying a dog. And some would even argue that the word bitch implies that this dog has been bred or it's for breeding. So why would you pay a dog that you you are planning to breed? Um, so there's that, but then it comes out again. And all of a sudden it's a free spade Afghan female to a good home. Interesting. So,
00:44:36
Speaker
It, yeah, it's interesting how after the dog has been bade, it's no longer worth anything to him. Right. And, and this one came out, what was it on the 20th year anniversary of Christina White's disappearance, like right before or or her birthday. That's. she So the, the Afghan bitch, three years old,
00:45:01
Speaker
That ad came out three years after Christina White had been taken. Taken, okay. So this one came out three years after something gun had had disappeared, right? And then the Dome House, we'll get back to this one. And then there's this one that I found really interesting, which actually ties back to the Dome House. So, you know, Voss, A, thought he was a genius,
00:45:29
Speaker
hey He created this dome house for himself but he moved into that dome house or it was completed in nineteen eighty five but then in nineteen eighty seven. He publishes an ad referring to a lost husky. Back in the a certain area where he didn't live anymore.
00:45:50
Speaker
And i just found that to be so strange but the stranger thing you know i mean there's so many strange things about it but in each of these ads you know there's a phone number that clearly links to boss and then a nonsensical phone number either not linked to him or.
00:46:08
Speaker
linked to someone else or something else. And then references to evenings and weekends, which I find very odd because who has different numbers on even evenings and weekends or even in this ad? I don't know. I and find it it's fascinating to me.
00:46:25
Speaker
Also a brown husky that just makes no, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just not a dog that is typically brown. ah You know, that it it just, it it sticks out. That was like one of the first things that occurred to me. It was like a brown husky, okay. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it's just not the common color um variation that you tend to see with that dog, so. And and March 3rd is a significant date, yeah. Well, and this ad was the one where um and Christina's name appears in order. Ah, yes. Right. The C H I S T I N A. And then her last name also appears backwards in order. And that may just be, you know, I mean, if you look through enough letters, you can spell out lots of things, but it's interesting that her first name does actually appear in order and that the wording of it is. That's a really good point, actually.
00:47:24
Speaker
Brandon's theory was that this um was supposed to be in a way like like derogatory. So it kind of decoded, so to speak, it reads, lost Christina Brown Husky phone numbers, evenings and weekend. And so Brandon and I were kind of talking about it and we were wondering if the evenings and weekend was, you know, some sort of like maybe ah a clue or a hint that because she went missing on, you know, in the evening, on the weekend. So, you know, we were wondering if that was a sort of tell. Well, and also in this ad, isn't March 3rd, um, for birthday? Yeah. Yeah. It's also my son's birthday. I'm just sad. Uh, interesting that on March 7th, you publish an ad about
00:48:23
Speaker
a husky that was lost in the Esonaria on March 3rd. It's got Christina's first name in it, in order, and it's literally, yeah, in order, and then it also has her last name in it. And I wouldn't really think of it as all that much of a big deal if I didn't go back and see things like this.
00:48:46
Speaker
where all of their names are in the ad. um And it almost comes off like a clever game. Was he known to be a person who liked to play games or run tricks on people or got any kick out of duping people?
00:49:03
Speaker
Well two things one well a couple things one he he was Um in the navy and so he may have had some coding experience. Um I did a little bit of research way back when we were first looking at these it's been a while now, but I kind of got into looking at different types of coding and when Messages are hidden in words like that. It's called steganogra. Oh, yep fee um and stay today would have been words and letters that were embedded within messages like this.
00:49:36
Speaker
Um, i'm gonna say something else about it, but I don't remember now. Um, I do think that he he was really active in dungeons and dragons it in the 80s and so ah Certainly dungeons. I mean i'm the dungeons and dragons club advisor at my school and those kids are phenomenal imaginative They are not evil demons, but I do think that that imaginative and creative interest in the mysterious his personality as well. Oh yeah, I would. I would agree that especially um the early editions of D and&D back in you know in the 80s. Definitely were very like. A lot more hyper masculine. There was a lot more sort of like power male fantasy involved in sort of the very early days of D and&D that he might have derived.
00:50:27
Speaker
a lot of ah ah pleasure from from doing, especially. so um But that's that's a really good point, though, and um that, yeah, and someone who's drawn to the theatricality and and all that and that, yeah, getting off on on deceiving people or thinking you're getting one over on them, I think that is very much a driver. Yeah. and And to your points, by the way, like listening to you guys describe him, I kind of think you're you're disgu describing that.
Voss's Personality Analysis
00:50:57
Speaker
Do be delight, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're describing that sort of like perfect personality for um to kind of like get along and get ahead in life, right? We're describing somebody who is very confident. We're describing somebody who is ambitious, who's very sociable, who's inquisitive, who's focused on learning. But it seems like his weak spot seems to be in the whole, you know, the last thing that he's sort of missing to be successful is poor impulse control. Like he is not, by any indication, we can find any sort of planner or somebody who values structure, order, predictability, or following rules or processes. I mean, that's why you kind of sucked at being in the Navy, right? and
00:51:53
Speaker
right well But not only that, like if you just look at his job history, if yeah the man had more jobs in 10 years than I think most people have in their lifetimes easily. He had every job. It's like virtually impossible to keep track of. But it reminds me of this client I have. He's amazing.
00:52:13
Speaker
I've had him as a client for like seven years. He's absolutely amazing. You might ask he came in as a career coaching client. Why is he still my client? The guy can interview magically. He could get any job. He can write a letter that will get him an interview anywhere. He can't keep a job. He can't keep a job for like any amount of time. And I think some of it is because, you know, it seems like
00:52:40
Speaker
Lance's sort of big flaw in being successful in other ways in life. is really his lack of prudence and his lack of conscientiousness, which kind of, and I wanna talk to Julie about this, is kind of the MO of an opportunistic a person.
00:52:59
Speaker
And, you know, like a planner is gonna lay a trap, pick a target, pick a victim, but there's certain, we know from, you know, we know from the research, there's certain kinds of killers who just lay a spider web.
00:53:13
Speaker
And they might have like 100 victims in their head as potential victims, but that when you walk into their spider web at the right moment, they're going to take you. And and that part seems to also fit his personality too. But he was a mess. yeah I mean, he was a mess.
00:53:33
Speaker
Yeah. I remember Gloria sharing a specific story. I can't remember who the person um was, but it it was somebody who knew boss, I think through the theater, but they were, um, they were either at an ATM or a pay phone, you know, kind of doing their thing, getting their, getting their coins or whatever. And they turned around and boss was standing there and he likes the crack out of them.
00:54:02
Speaker
And you know, she's kind of like, what are you doing? And he was like, oh, you know, gee golly, you didn't mean to scare you. He's kind of got a Ned Flanders thing going on. But what was like most notable to that person was like, how did I not hear this giant dude behind me? You know what I mean? He's like, what? Six, four, six, five. Like, how did I not hear this man? You know, so.
00:54:28
Speaker
For as large as he was, people noted that he was a very, very sneaky, sneaky quiet man. And I think that's like the scariest. thing I was going to ask you guys what when you think of the different cases and you think of him and you think of his life now, what sort of stands out to you? And I also wanted to ask you guys just what your thoughts are on what you think might lead to a resolution in these cases. Yeah. Where do you want to start with the first question or the second? However you want to go.
00:55:07
Speaker
Okay, well, I think that a resolution, like i talk like I said earlier, I think a resolution might come if people are willing to speak up.
Potential Resolution through Information
00:55:16
Speaker
There are people who know him personally, and if those people have the courage to come forward and provide, I think there's a really good possibility that Lance kept trophies, that he took pictures of his victims, and that if those exist, that there's some physical proof that he did these horrible things,
00:55:36
Speaker
that of course that would break the case wide open as well. But I do think that there are people who know things and you know I would just impeach upon those people to think of the families and to think of the good that they could do in this world by saying what they know, by speaking the truth about the past and bringing some relief to these people who have suffered for decades. If you know something, say something.
00:56:04
Speaker
Do you think there's you use the word courage, Kathy, do do you think there are what what do you think holds people back? I think they're afraid of him. I think that he stands to inherit a lot of money. And I think there are people who are afraid that he could use is that against them, uh, who fear that he could do that to them or the people they love, especially if they're members of his family. ah You know, I think, um, I don't know if you've seen the documentary into the fire, but there's a, I don't want to give anything away, but there's a woman in that documentary that I think, yeah, I think she,
00:56:42
Speaker
Probably has some similarities. I think his wife probably bears some similarities that she's been duped for decades That she loves this man with her whole being and that she could not be convinced that he did harm to anyone and From the outside. It's hard for us to believe how could anybody be married to someone who's been accused of being a serial killer and stay with them I do think there are people out there that could that yeah i think if there had been
00:57:14
Speaker
less evidence against dennis rader that theye Horf Rader-Hatton messed up himself. I mean, he said that. He just wanted attention, didn't he? Yeah, he kept writing that letter. He got busted. Well, there are family members of the loss who could come forward and say what they know. And I think it Yeah, would take some courage to stand up and speak I truth to power and say, think if there had been enough is less evidence against Dennis Rader. enough. I've kept your secrets for 45 years and I'm done. And I want to unburden myself.
00:57:45
Speaker
and i think they would be safe i think there's a community of people that would support them and doing that. Yeah and i remember i'm and it it reminds me of dennis rater who i don't know how many months he was responsible for in the wichita kansas area as btk. um But i do wonder whether if law enforcement had not walked in with dna.
00:58:12
Speaker
And they had only walked in with, let's say, the writings they found on a computer desk, whether it would have been so easy for the family to say, yes, this man that, you know, has his flaws and has his good parts and has his X, Y, or Z, and has done these nice things for me could have possibly done this. um And it reminds me of ah Lance's stepson, Clint.
00:58:41
Speaker
because Brandon interviewed him, and Brandon asked him during the interview something along the lines of, and I'm just summarizing, like, you know, is there a way that you could imagine with the right evidence you could believe that Lance did it? And he said yes, and I kept thinking to myself, it's gonna have to be a videotape based on what I'm, the way he's talking here. And I think it's really hard because When you admit that someone you love or care about or perceive loves you has has merely been keeping a secret from you for decades, much less that they did something horrible that you can't imagine to people, you're throwing away a lot when you do that. You're throwing away a lot of your life and that is, even if you don't have anything financially to gain, you're throwing away a piece of yourself there and that's hard.
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah. What do you think, Sam, in terms of ah ah any thoughts to add in terms of like how you think this could have resolution or or anything else that sticks out about you about Lance? that No, I just think kind of, um you know, long story short, just finding new evidence in general where that whether that means, you know, finding Steven Piercel's body, or if it means, you know, finding at smoking gun, so to speak. um I just think that new evidence, I think what we have now is so circumstantial that in order to get a solid, you know, jury conviction, it's going to require some hard, tangible DNA evidence or, you know, something really exculpatory like that. um I do think though, just to kind of comment on Lance, I just think it's,
01:00:34
Speaker
Personally, I think it's a little strange how long he's let this narrative go for I just think if it were me um And I was being convicted or you know um Convicted in the thing I committed these crimes Yeah, I just I i would be doing Lie detector test I would be doing the DNA tests. I would be answering the police questions I would be letting them search my home, you know in the case of Christina White I don't think the police even ever searched that house in a so I don't think they searched his house and I don't think they searched Pat's house and so I just think that his actions to me don't Seem like that of an innocent man they seem like that of a ah man who
01:01:24
Speaker
thinks it's funny that he's getting away with this. yeah You know, it's kind of like we, we on the Snake River Killer podcast, we did a deep dive into the Wikipedia pages that are kind of covering all these cases. And it said outright on that page, like, you know, and I'm quoting the Wikipedia page just for No, that's purposes right now. They said like Lance did it. This is where he lives. This is who he's married to. This is his years in military. I mean, it was his whole biography. And if it were me, I would be, you know, taking legal action against Wikipedia. Like that's defamation. You can't say that I murdered people if I didn't murder people. And his lack of action against those types of comments and against those types of pages and against those
01:02:10
Speaker
you know, you just you don't see him defending himself the way I think an innocent person should be defending
Lance Voss's Defense Response
01:02:18
Speaker
themselves. Right. and it And it's also totally possible that just simply over time he an innocent person could give up on give up on fighting back, but I do see exactly what you're saying, saying, Sam. It's almost like, you know, whether he is responsible or he's not, he certainly seems to be quite comfortable and almost reveling in being thought of as the guy who's the serial killer.
01:02:44
Speaker
because it's come at real cost to him. And I mean, yeah she's joined clubs that he's been kicked out of. His wife lost a job in North Carolina because of it. It's not, you know, it's clearly had a very negative impact on the sun ah his stepson Clint's life. Has there have been like real costs to just not simply standing up? And even if he doesn't want to go on camera, even if he doesn't want to get an interview, you could release a statement from your attorney, but not even that. And his own attorney that had passed away believed he did it. Well, yeah.
01:03:22
Speaker
um and Well, we're talking about you know wrapping up the this Lance part in one last question for you ladies um or how whichever one of you would like to take it. What do we know about where he is now? What has he been doing? um as of you know What are his most recent movements that we're aware of?
Current Status of Lance Voss
01:03:41
Speaker
I don't know how much I want to dox the guy.
01:03:43
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's a good point um but I mean His information is searchable on the google machine, right? We can find his address and phone number pretty easily I know he's involved with a musical group in north carolina where he lives or has been involved with the musical group Yeah, I know I have heard but I don't know for sure that he has traveled to idaho and washington That he has family that continue to live in the area I think he's living his best days. Yeah. He's living out his retirement, you know? All indications that I've heard, Alison, are that he seems like a pretty comfortable happy man. Yeah. And I mean... Doing the things he's always done now. It just seems like a case of... Involved in music and theater and libraries and... He has a lot of things kind of working for him and the complication aspects of this case being that there are multiple victims spread across several states going back 40 years or more, 50 years. It's probably jurisdictional issues in the Lewis-Clarke Valley. Very much so. Tying so many of these things together, I almost feel like if they're going to get him, they'll probably get him on one.
01:05:01
Speaker
maybe to, you know, maybe the civic theater case. That just seems to me the most missed opportunities that happened um where they could have gotten him. I think ah when when we peel the part that case a little more,
01:05:16
Speaker
I was left wondering how in the hell did did he slip away? Well, but it's really interesting to me because I actually think it's the Christina White disappearance. Yeah. and I think if they had put two and two together on the first day and gotten a search warrant quickly, that yeah that one could have been solved quite easily. But well you know one of the things that Jackie said to me was,
01:05:38
Speaker
If with the evidence that they had in the first two days in a so they could have gotten a search warrant, they could never get one today because legally, once time passes, your evidence, quote unquote, spoils legally. And you have to like you can't get probable cause for me committing a crime right now and then do a search 20 years from now. but You have to have some new piece of information. And on the civic theaters, I mean, she handed it to them.
01:06:07
Speaker
He walked in. And that's the one moment where, one moment in this entire story where I wonder whether Lance was nervous. He actually walked himself into the police station afterwards to say he was the last person in the theater. So I think that there's probably a missed opportunity there. But I do think, you know, including some of the detectives back then and Jackie now and good Lord knows Gloria,
01:06:33
Speaker
there very And these guys on the Snake River podcast, because I'm so grateful for you. i I care about this case. I'm interested in this case. And I am so grateful that Brandon created the podcast, that you guys found him, he found you, that there's, you know, Betty White is gone.
01:06:53
Speaker
she's died. And as these family members pass on, it's just wonderful to know that there are people like you guys out there who are going to continue to pursue this on behalf of them, on behalf of Justice,
01:07:07
Speaker
um long after Lance Voss will make it through natural life. so I couldn't agree more. Jason, you said it perfectly. So Alison, I have no idea what we're going to do on our episode with Julia, because I think we've probably both decided what our opinions are on Lance's show. No, I mean, listen, i'm I am willing to ah hear her take on everything. You can find out about whether Kristen David was a part of it.
01:07:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and honestly, we'll be doing a lot of victimology um in our talk with Julia and um and seeing yeah how how it could all fit together. and And obviously, you know, anybody listening right now, if you have questions for the our our retired FBI profiler friend, please let us know. and We can have those ready for her.
01:07:55
Speaker
But i I just thank you, Kathy and Sam so much for coming on to talk about this. I i just could keep probing your brains even more or really on ah any other cases that you're interested in, to be honest. so Yeah, and and really a round of applause for you too. I really do admire you.
01:08:13
Speaker
um I'm impressed by how dogged you are. Nobody's paying you know you to do this. No one is giving you giant accolades. And part of the reason why I wanted to have you on is that I know you guys contribute so much to the success of the, I want to say the podcast, but I really, to the pursuit of justice in this case, which is beyond just the Snake River,
01:08:36
Speaker
killer podcast. And, um you know, I think I think you deserve a lot of credit and you should feel really good about that. And I just want to say I admire you and appreciate you both. Yeah. Amen. Have fun. Of course. Yes. Thank you. Tomorrow, December 7th, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m., we'll be holding a true crime podcasting meetup at the Hotel Ivy in downtown Minneapolis.
01:09:03
Speaker
It's not too late to sign up. We'll be doing a live show with some guests who are great true crime podcasters. We'll have some guests from the forensic science firm Othrom and the Gabby Petito Foundation, advocates, and some fun events. We're also going to do a live investigation of an actual case. If you're interested, you can go to our Facebook page to find the event sign up.
01:09:27
Speaker
or to www.silverliningshandbook dot.com to sign up there. There's no cost and we hope to see you tomorrow. Thanks for joining us for this true crime bonus episode with our awesome guest Kathy Belvin, Samantha Sawyer, and of course my co-host for this series, Alison Dixon. If you'd like to join us and other listeners,
01:09:51
Speaker
We can be found on most social media platforms, including an awesome lister-run Facebook group that you should join called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with me and other listers like this live, you can join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings Handbook.
01:10:16
Speaker
I'm Jason Blair and this is the Silver Linings Handbook Podcast. We'll see you all again soon.