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94. Why We Love Mysteries with Brett Talley (Part 2 of 2)
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We return to mysteries with celebrated author Brett Talley, the co-host of The Prosecutors Podcast, where we explore the connection between modern-day true crime and the human fascination with mysteries. Among other things, we explore the human need to search, solve puzzles, make sense of the world and what happens when those enigmas are solved. This is the second episode of a two-part series.
This is the second part of a conversation with Brett as we continue to talk about some fascinating mysteries and why we as people are so gripped by them.
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Episode art by Hannah Hill who is the talented artist who produces art for every episode of The Prosecutors podcast, which Brett co-hosts with Alice LaCour. To check out and support Hannah's art, check out her Instagram at @serious_moonlite or her website at https://linktr.ee/HannahHillArt.
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
No, I think you're right. and And that's one of the reasons why you want to you want to solve the mysteries for lots of different reasons, but solving them is an end and in a lot of ways. And we keep talking about different movies and books and everything else. I mean, I'm sure you've seen Memento and and and one of, not to give away the ending of a 25 year old movie if you haven't seen it, but One of the things is at some point he, the whole point of the movie, he's, he's trying to find the person who killed his family. And you realize at some point that he found them and he avenged his family.
00:00:43
Speaker
but he makes a decision that he's going to destroy the evidence of that because he knows that what gives him purpose in life is to keep, is to search, is to look. And he knows that once he's found it, then it's over. And the sort of striving for something I think is is what gives us purpose. And you're absolutely right. While we're looking for it together, we're all together, we're all searching, but once we find it, what's gonna happen?
00:01:13
Speaker
That's Brett Talley, an author of several bestselling novels and anthologies, including Hugh Who Walks in the Shadows, That Which Shall Not Be, and The Fiddle is the Devil's Instrument. Brett is also the host of the highly-rated True Crime podcast, The Prosecutor's Podcast. This is the Silver Linings Handbook. I'm Jason Blair.
00:01:49
Speaker
This is the second part of a conversation with Brett on why we as people are fascinated by mysteries. Brett has been twice nominated for the Bram Stroker Award for Superior Achievement, the top award for horror writing presented annually by the Horror Writers Association. The works of writers who were nominated for the Bram Stroker Award, which is named after the Irish Victorian-era Gothic fiction writer who is the author of Dracula,
00:02:19
Speaker
are done by juries who are members of the Horror Writers Association. That Which Should Not Be was Brett's first novel and was published in 2011. In addition to being nominated for the Bram Stroker Award for a writer's first novel, it was a semifinalist for the Goodreads Choice Awards and winner of the Journal Stone Horror Writing Contest.
00:02:42
Speaker
That Which Shall Not Be takes readers on a journey to Mesotonic University, a fictional school with a whispered reputation for being connected to the occult and supernatural, where a professor and a student search a nearby village for a book that's believed to control all the non-human forces that rule the earth. The pair bring the book back to Mesotonic University, opening up a gate to the netherworld.
00:03:09
Speaker
Brett was also nominated for a 2014 anthology, Limbus Inc. Book 2, that he edited, where five masters of horror, fantasy, and science fiction writing take readers to a world of time travel, human sacrifice, intergalactic beings, and much, much more. Brett is an attorney and also the author of several true ghost stories in a nonfiction book called haunted Tuscaloosa,
00:03:36
Speaker
which explores the paranormal in an Alabama town, from the now shuttered, local insane asylum and antebellum mansion said to be haunted by ghosts, to cemeteries where Confederate soldiers are said to still march, and ghost stories from the University of Alabama grounds.
00:03:54
Speaker
On the Prosecutors Podcast, Brett and his co-host, Alice Lecour, explore some of the mysteries of true crime, including the strange disappearances of people like the Jack family in British Columbia, the disappearance of Brianna Maitland, the daughter of our former guest, Bruce Maitland, and Maura Murray, the little sister of our former guest, Julie Murray.
00:04:16
Speaker
Part of their exploration of mysteries includes cases like those of the murders of John Bonet Ramsey and Lacey Peterson, as well as whether Michael Peterson killed his wife, or whether among other possibilities, it was a now.
00:04:30
Speaker
Often Brett and Alice helped bring clarity to things that seemed mysterious, like their exploration of the murder of Ruthie Mae McCoy, which inspired the 1992 movie Candy Man, and the story of the real story that inspired the fears of razor blades and poison being in Halloween candy in the episode entitled, The Man Who Killed Halloween, Sweet Dreams.
00:04:55
Speaker
Brett and Alice go beyond what might traditionally be considered true crime, and have explored unexplained mysteries like Dyatlov Pass, where nine Soviet hikers died under mysterious circumstances in the Ural Mountains, and the Khaimur-Debayne incident, where six other Soviet hikers disappeared in the mountains near Lake Baqal in southern Siberia.
00:05:18
Speaker
They also explore topics like the humanoid creatures reportedly seen in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, called the Mothman, whether the moon is hollow, and whether the Soviets lost cosmonauts in outer space.
00:05:31
Speaker
The Prosecutors Podcast was the 2023 winner of the People's Choice Creator of the Year award at CrimeCon. This October, they've already tackled the exorcism of Annalise Michelle, the unbelievably bizarre corpse-wood murders in northern Georgia,
00:05:50
Speaker
An episode on creepy places in the case of Zona Hester, also known as the Greenbrier Ghost, the only case that Brett knows of where ghosts appear to have solved their own murder. What brings a lot of Brett's many interests together is his love of mysteries. Today for this October episode, we're gonna talk about some fascinating mysteries and why we as people are so gripped by them.
00:06:32
Speaker
Well, who was it? that um It was actually ah the the woman who interviewed BTK. I can't think of Dennis Rader, who was the blind bind torture ah kill serial killer and Wichita. ah Katherine Ramsland. She talked about how what true crime really is all about. And I'm going to butcher her her actual words. But she said it's just.
00:06:56
Speaker
puzzles. And we like to solve puzzles, people enjoy puzzles. And I wonder whether like some element of ah for people like you and me, you know, the the ghost stories and things like that are more of this sort of like funny or more relaxing puzzles, where the real life ones are a lot more scary for us. But but the idea that what's in common, whether it's a solve case or not a solve case, it always starts off as a puzzle.
00:07:26
Speaker
Uh, that you're going with your readers or your listeners or, or your friends on some journey to solve the puzzle. And I wonder whether it's really what, what, what we enjoy together or what we bond over is that journey together. Um, because see that yeah in some of like the sleuthing communities.
00:07:45
Speaker
People really do bond together trying to figure things out trying to solve things and I think people typically have really good Motives for this stuff and people sometimes it goes overboard and we've we've all seen that and we've seen the damage that can happen from that But I really think people go into it with this sort of, if we all put our heads together, maybe we can figure this thing out. And I think that that is a good thing. And we talked about how crowdsourcing could be so important. You see that if you go to something like crime con, I think people who've never gone to crime con and some people who really kind of turn their nose up to crime con don't realize how many people are there who are actually the victims of crime looking to get their loved ones more attention because they recognize that that is one way to get those cases solved.
00:08:32
Speaker
Yep, that it's actually, and that was one of the things I was saying about CrimeCon both in 2023 and 2024. I was having a recent conversation with somebody about this where I was saying like, if I could be with the people who are the listeners there every day, like the people sitting in front of the giant board or wall of people who are missing, who are like,
00:08:56
Speaker
talking about the area or saying that they know somebody who lived in that area or and you know like thinking about ways that they could help those cases. I would hang out with those people every day if I could. If every day could be crime con, I would make a crime con. But it's because of that. It's actually because as much as I like spending time with the creators, it's amazing to spend time with the people who care about those cases and do want to solve them. And I do think their intentions are are um very good. i was I was thinking about this one case that I i i ah love is wrong word, probably the wrong word for it, but I'm really fascinated by this case. This is another one that I went out to visit. I went out to Idaho, I think, in 2003. For this case, it's called the Lewis Clark Valley Murders, or some people call it the Snake River
00:09:48
Speaker
murders, but basically the mystery there. You guys should do this case at some point. The big part of the mystery there is that in at one point, I think it was like september September of 1982, there are three people disappear from the Lewis and the Idaho Civic Theater. It's like 21-year-old girl, 18-year-old girl, and um a 35-year-old man who was working there as the janitor. They just absolutely vanish. No one's found until a year later, about 40 miles, 45 miles away in in, you know, I think east of there in Idaho, ah two of the girls' bodies were
00:10:36
Speaker
um They eventually have sort of like identified a prime suspect in it. And he was also linked to a disappearance a couple years later of another girl and there might be another murder that's associated with it. And then another one back in Chicago when he was like 15 year old. So there's all this around this.
00:10:53
Speaker
And I'm fascinated by the case. I would investigate the case if I had the time I contribute to helping the people who are are are looking into the case. But I do wonder sometimes Brett, if that case is solved, like would it takes a certain amount of air out of it for me? Because I so enjoy solving puzzles.
00:11:18
Speaker
And it makes me wonder about myself because there's a part of me that like cares very deeply about the victims, their families, other people like that. But I think there's a huge part of me that's drawn to the mental and intellectual exercise of solving puzzles. One, one because i I find it enjoyable, but also I think solving puzzles is one way I just make sense of the world, right?
00:11:44
Speaker
like ah You know, i make the I make sense for me of people's behaviors or or patterns or I learn through solving puzzles. And I know that yeah it's just interesting to me. I wonder if some of these big mysteries that I'm interested right now, even though I want them to be solved, whether I'll lose something if they are, if that makes sense.
00:12:08
Speaker
No, I think it makes perfect sense. And I think you can see that you can look at that in a couple different ways. I think in a lot of, a lot of things we do as people, the sort of cliche, it's all about the, the journey, not the destination thing. I think a lot of people.
00:12:25
Speaker
Really enjoy putting puzzles together. And then when they finish them, it's not like that's the satisfying part. It was the, it was like, don't have a Picasso now. Yeah, exactly. and And honestly, the last few pieces are the most boring pieces, right? Like once you basically figured out, it's like, I got it now.
00:12:42
Speaker
you know um video games, right? I mean, the most fun of the video game is is the hard part. once Once like your character is overpowered, then you're bored with it, right? I feel like it's kind of like that. And I think one of the things about the ties into what we've been talking about is how unsatisfying solved mysteries are for a lot of different reasons.
00:13:09
Speaker
Because even if initially there's some, there's a jolt of energy when a case saw it, I mean, think about LISC. You know, that case, I think has been solved. I think I can say that without prejudicing the the current suspect in that case. um Save that. case Yeah, it's a bad guy. That case, I mean, a fascinating mystery, a lot of lot of a great book on that case. Oh yeah, Lost Girls. That is fantastic. you're all yeah
00:13:39
Speaker
Love the focus on the actual victims more so than the killer. go ah Now he- Can I recommend not reading it for the first time though when your partner is driving it to Long Island for a weekend? That's probably-
00:13:57
Speaker
re Rex rex how are men lives up to our image of sort of the monster right i mean he he actually does what the thing is. I mean let's say he's he's convicted he sent us to life in prison he goes away. How satisfied are you with that does that feel like justice do you know he murdered multiple people those girls are still dead there always be dead there's nothing that will bring them back.
00:14:21
Speaker
You know, even if you executed him still, I mean, okay, he's dead. But, and and I feel like people run into that a lot and you're kind of surprised by it and how sort of unfulfilling it is. And I think you see that a lot with victims. And I think victims will tell you this, you know, you go to trial and A lot of victims will say, I thought, you know, when he was found guilty or when he was sent away or when he was executed, I would have closure. I would be able to move on. And and actually I just felt empty. And I think.
00:14:55
Speaker
In so many of just the way we're built, I just think it's how we're built that the mystery itself is much more invigorating than the solution, not just because the solutions tend to be disappointing, but also just because.
00:15:12
Speaker
Okay, you know, now what, right? Yeah. And I wonder whether it's like the way that we're wired as humans, as beings that are focused on learning and growing and solving. Like that's what means so much of our fulfillment is built in growth and new new things. that's a That's kind of an interesting thing. And maybe what it really is about is it's about the journey. and I was curious about one thing that that I found like, you know, interesting about the podcast um and still find it interesting about the podcast. You did Dial Of Pass, you did, it's how do you say it is the Kyber Debane case. You know, you did one on whether the moon is hollow, the lost cosmonauts by the way, which I had never heard of, lost cosmonauts in space. i'm and I'm definitely pro hoping there's some truth to that.
00:16:06
Speaker
because it sounds so fascinating, because it it raises so many questions if you went floating off into space while alive and ended up outside of the orbit, just raises so many questions and so many mysteries for me. um But and oh the Mothman one in West Virginia, the Mothman creature, not the typical stuff I would say that ah most true crime podcasts would do,
00:16:32
Speaker
How did you guys decide to settle on that? I think it, and it reminds me of something we were talking about before. It's like you and Alice sometimes are just like friends sitting around the, sitting on the couches in the living room having conversations about interesting cool stuff you love.
00:16:48
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, I am very glad that the podcast has been so successful. We're very blessed that it's been successful, but it's never been about being successful. It's about this podcast for me was enjoyable, really enjoyable, some ways more enjoyable when 20 people were listening to it. Right. And we were talking about this stuff. I like,
00:17:13
Speaker
digging into this stuff. i like Like you said, trying to solve mysteries. I like talking about it with Alice and and hearing other people's perspective. And for me, because that stuff is something I'm passionate about and something I always cared about, it was always gonna be part of the podcast. We were always gonna include that, those those types of mysteries. They're pretty rare. you know we We do those once every four or five months. I mean, a lot of times we'll do them after a big case. you know If we spend 14 weeks on a case,
00:17:42
Speaker
You know, we did add on Syed, the most true crime of true crime cases. We did 14 episodes on it. And the next episode was, is the moon hollow?
00:17:52
Speaker
and I think we all needed that. We all needed the is the moon hollow episode after that. Um, and so number one, I love them, but number two, I think they're a little bit of a palate cleanser and you can still do the same exercise of how you think about this stuff and how you apply.
00:18:09
Speaker
the evidence to, to what you're looking at, because you can use that sort of analysis across your life, not just in true crime, you know, figuring out things is what we do. It's like you said, that is what drives us. And I think that's one reason we'll always do those. They don't, they never get as many listeners as the true crime stuff. Cause a lot of people are in it for the true crime and they don't care about that kind of stuff. But that doesn't matter to me because I'm passionate about them. And there are a lot of people who enjoy it.
00:18:37
Speaker
Yeah, and there's something like, and I i just remember what was dialogue past was like five parts. I don't even i don't know how to capture this or describe it to you because I listened to it before I knew you, so I've probably never never said this. There was something just magical about it. I mean, you guys told the story well. I felt like we, as I was listening, I knew the characters, but there was just something magical, and I don't even mean about the story.
00:19:07
Speaker
and Well, i mean maybe it is about the story but there was just something like truly magical about the experience of going on that five part journey to the point where when i have a long road trip i took one to north carolina ah loaded up downloaded dial up pass when ah my it had her funeral in October of last year and it's like three hours down, three hours back. I loaded up Dyatlov Pass, listened to the first part on the way down, the first part on the way back. I had a plane trip over, where was I going? I may have been going to Seattle or someplace. It was somewhere on the West Coast and I loaded Dyatlov Pass for the plane. and It was like reading a great book.
00:19:53
Speaker
As much as it was listening to a true crime podcast but as you say it like when i think of dial a pass and i think about the story of an unsaid or the work you guys did on japanese it's the same sort of structure in a way. um You know the same sort of like looking at the evidence from all the different angles and one of the things you guys do to that that i really like in all the episodes is, you you tell it from a timeline perspective you don't really hide you know it like a lot of writers do hide clues that happen up front and bring it all together to the back but there's just something magical about the the experience of listening to that and i don't i i i cannot one hundred percent put a finger on it but i find myself going back and back to those kinds of cases that that you guys have done.
00:20:44
Speaker
and you know particularly something about, I think part of it for me is something about it not having a resolution or there being competing resolutions.
00:20:55
Speaker
it It lets my mind keep on running into new ideas and new places, and I can research new things. I think I've read four books, maybe, and bought five books. I have left that since I wasn't there. So I don't know. I don't know. There's something powerful about it for me, at least.
00:21:16
Speaker
Yeah i don't know what it is about that case that i mean i had to me i feel like the other passes the dragon i'll be chasing for the rest of my life it is the ultimate mystery to me it's the one is always grabbed me the most.
00:21:34
Speaker
the It has this and just tremendous cast of characters, these really interesting people who also happen to be fascinating from but the perspective of their the Soviet kids in late 1950s, not like, you know, so different from us. And yet when you learn about them, you read their diaries, you just, they're, so they're just like us. You know what I mean? i mean there's That case is just, it's incredible. And, and they, they're these sort of joyous,
00:22:01
Speaker
Kids out for this hike, except for the one who's the grizzled. World War two veteran who survived Stalingrad is sort of an unusual addition to the group, but nevertheless, you know, they're out there doing this thing. That is hard and challenging, but should not be deadly. And then they disappear.
00:22:21
Speaker
But they are found, but but the way they're found makes the mystery even greater in all of the competing evidence and the secrecy of the Soviet Union and a lot of the strangeness of the things that were going on. It is just, to me, the perfect mystery. And I think it worked well for us because I, like you, have read just about everything you can possibly read on that case. so ah mean I mean, ever since I read that crack dot.com article, I was all the way down the rabbit hole.
00:22:47
Speaker
on the outlive pass i read donny ackerts book which is fantastic don't agree with him and his conclusion but fantastic book uh and then there's there's just so there's so many Great books. Some of them written by Russians and translated into English that are really good, but... And it gets solved. Like, somebody writes a giant article about how it's been solved every year, and it's so funny. Every time I pick one up, I'm like, yeah, no. Like, nice try. Good luck. It's like the ah the Zodiac Killer. The Zodiac Killer is unmasked every year, and it's always a different person. Yes, right.
00:23:23
Speaker
Well, I think of the other one, too. what It was the Kaimar-Debane incident, which was like, is that the Lake Bacall one? Yes. Yeah, the giant lake in Russia and Siberia. and I guess that's like south, southeast Siberia. Yeah. Southeast Siberia. And I forget how many hikers were there, but they're hiking up the mountain. um And
00:23:50
Speaker
The first first person, and I think it was the youngest person in the group or the second youngest person in the group collapses and then eventually they all start collapsing and one woman um one woman sort of like makes it makes it away.
00:24:07
Speaker
And I remember listening to you guys do your episodes on it and thinking to myself, Oh, I'm listening to an audio book of the girl who, uh, the girl who loved Tom Gordon right now as she goes down the mountain.
00:24:23
Speaker
and owner travel is never gonna get out of the forest. And I think it had that same kind of mystery appeal to to some of the stories that Stephen King writes and because it it speaks to you know like our fears and there's altruism in there because the older hiker in that group essentially runs back to help and ends up dying and warning people to get away.
00:24:52
Speaker
um There's the loneliness of the trip of the survivor. you know There's the madness she eventually gets through. This is another the one where where she finally finds her way to water um near the lake and has just kind of like lost it and walks out to wash her hair.
00:25:12
Speaker
thats you get watching her And these kayakers are like, uh, what's going on? no that that can here You're right. And it's interesting you mentioned Stephen King, because I think one of the reasons, one of the things that makes Stephen King great, or at least my favorite Stephen King books, my favorite Stephen King books are the books that are firmly grounded in reality with just a little bit of a twist. So they're pretty much.
00:25:40
Speaker
absolute reality, then it's not a magical world. It's not, you know, anything wild and crazy. It's our world with just a little, something's a little off and the little offness is, it's almost like the uncanny valley, right? Like it's so close to where we live that it's even creepier, that it's just a little bit different. And a lot of these cases that are the best, that's a good example because they're just hiking up a mountain.
00:26:10
Speaker
Normal day nothing extraordinary about it and then all of a sudden they started bleeding out of their eyes and their ears and collapsing and dying and you have this one girl who whatever is happening is utterly unaffected by it. Everybody else is is. Dying one after another and she's just standing there watching it happen and then she fleas and survives and lives to tell the tale.
00:26:31
Speaker
and this this insane story. And there's something about that that is just, to me, so deeply unsettling because it's so normal except for this one insane thing that happens in the middle of the story.
00:26:45
Speaker
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. This one little one little twist that throws it. It's interesting, too, that you make that point about Stephen King, because I was thinking about him recently because I was looking at a bunch of my my books. I've been reorganizing some of my books on the shelf. And I was thinking, is he really actually a horror writer or is he a writer who's like really good at sliding some horror? And like, obviously, Christine, The Shining, Kujo, horror stories, but a lot of my favorite work, I mentioned the Stan, the Firestarter, Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, even to some extent Pet Sematary, even though it's got a supernatural part. I sort of feel like he's a really good writer of stories that have these subtle lessons in them. Like for me, Christine, or was it Carrie?
00:27:46
Speaker
Carrie was really about, to me, about bullying, right? And um then, you know, the girl who loved Tom Gordon was about loneliness. The stand was about the risks of totalitarianism and all these other things, right? Hidden in there. And it's got a supernatural twist in each of them, but it's really, like, I feel like sometimes the stories that we tell in general, particularly thrillers, are really sort of like warnings, you know, like,
00:28:16
Speaker
more palatable warnings and I feel like sometimes when we're dealing with like. mysteries or we're dealing with, um I don't know, any kind of unexplained thing, it's a more palatable way way to learn some life lessons, if that makes sense, or an easier or more enthralling way. I probably learned more from those two series about 1950s and 1960s Soviet Union than the the many books I've read on Soviet Union.
00:28:46
Speaker
No, i'm I'm absolutely convinced of that that the best way to teach lessons is through fiction or you know horror. ah Horror is unique, and it's not unique, but it's powerful in the way that it's often a metaphor for something going on.
00:29:03
Speaker
you know, zombies, metaphors for all sorts of things, think back to like not a living dead and how it's a metaphor for sort of racism and then consumerism and then, you know, various other things, the invasion of the body snatchers and the red scare and just all of these, you know, all these different ways you can talk about real issues that are going on through the lens of harm, even not even realize maybe that you're, you're learning a lesson while you're you're reading it, I think you see that a lot, like you said, in Stephen King's books, you know, when we, my co-author and I wrote a couple books about ghosts.
00:29:42
Speaker
In a lot of ways, those were history books. there were They were books about the history of the area that we were talking about. People wouldn't read that. they wouldn't read like or Not many people would read a history of Tuscaloosa. If it's a ghost history of Tuscaloosa, then all of a sudden they want to read it. I mean, a lot of the chapters in that book barely had any ghost in them, but people would read it because that's what draws them in, and then they end up learning a lot in the process. Oh, that's really interesting you say that because you gave me, I think ah in 2023, you gave me a signed copy but that I can see right now of haunted Tuscaloosa. And you know you guys wrote about um the
00:30:26
Speaker
the insane asylum there and you know the haunted the same as I know you wrote about the natives who once lived on that land um and sort of like whether they're sort of still haunting around and all sorts of tales of spirits and interesting things about um Tuscaloosa, but i you know one thing that I didn't think about until what you said right now, I probably learned more about Tuscaloosa as a city and its history through the vehicle of that book than much of what I've read about Alabama and different parts of the South.
00:30:59
Speaker
at different points. um you know because they I think a lot of the history I read tends to concentrate on certain errors. But but the other thing too is you learn other lessons in that. You learn lessons about sort of like the way that we treat mentally ill people or about ah the role of the role or the impact on natives that our society or some things that we view as positive ah the the negative impact on them. that they really These stories are learning vehicles where I think something like haunted Tuscaloosa would have been a lot easier to read than if you had said, hey Jason, I want you to read the story about like what happened, what a horrible thing has happened to the natives in Tuscaloosa. I've been like, okay.
00:31:54
Speaker
But reading it that way, I'm like, all right. Same thing with the mentally ill part. like If you had said, hey, Jason, I want you to read this ah this book on how we handled asylums in the past, it would have been a lot harder than reading it through the lens of the ghosts who haunt us.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think storytelling is the way that we've taught lessons going back as, you know, as far as you can go. I mean, you think about, I mean, you think about how boring some people find history to be, but if you were like young Greek, listening to someone recite the, the Odyssey and the Iliad and you're learning all this, this stuff that happened. I mean, that was, that was an incredibly effective way to teach the history of your people. And I think you see that in so many things. And, and I think we,
00:32:38
Speaker
Sometimes I feel like we kind of have gotten away from that in a negative way where we teach a lot of stuff in a very dry sort of, I mean, you know, take even movies like Oppenheimer about the creation of the nuclear bomb. I mean, that's all that's a fascinating thing, the creation of nuclear bomb. But how many people are really going to sit down and read as we start off an encyclopedia article about that? But they might watch a really entertaining movie that also teaches them a lot of things. And, and now I know the whole thing wasn't historical in their errors or whatever, but there always are going to be those even in encyclopedia articles, so but it's a great way to learn. And, and I think you are more likely to learn things and retain them if you're being entertained.
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah, no, I completely agree. And you know my takeaway from Oppenheimer, there are lots of fascinating things about it. I've read a lot about the Manhattan Project and the the the the development of the bond. I had no idea about the downwinders, the people who were affected by the downwind. And so that became like a fascinating new avenue. And trust me, I did go to down the Wikipedia rabbit hole On now and as well so i think that's a great example i you know i one of the things you probably you've known me long enough you may have picked up on the set so when i have stressful moments in my life for things go wrong. my and My friends always say that like.
00:34:01
Speaker
<unk>s It's not about like resolution for me, but it's like once things make sense to me, like you could you could come in here and you could shoot me in the arm with a gun. Once I understand like why like it makes sense to me, I'm like, oh, okay. It's both a great prank and a fatal flaw.
00:34:18
Speaker
And so like you know an important thing for me and my comfort in the world is to make sense of things. And like they even joke about it at work. They're like, you are so forgiving of people. They could do the craziest thing as long as you're like, oh, now I understand why.
00:34:36
Speaker
I can't stop at you solving the puzzle, Jason. But there's another part of me that says, like, as much as I want to make sense of the world, and and and I get, like, I feel great stress when I can't make sense of what's happening, that if, kind of like, if you were to take away art, if we didn't have the unexplained, it would be like not having the subjective, and we would lose a certain amount of beauty if we knew All the answers I mean like that sounds it sounds like on one hand it sounds great know all the answers on the another hand it sounds like it would be so Unfulfilling if I did have all the answers and I wonder whether that's part of what like the attraction to mysteries is Kind of like art we would just lose something so deeply if we did know everything and
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's you know sometimes I think about... how boring heaven would be, you know, like, you know, you know, everything you, you, there's no, nothing really to strive for. You're just sort of there. Right. It holds back a little bit. exactly shall is Or you think about that, that scene in the matrix about when they talk about, I forget which one it is, but he talked about how they created multiple matrices matrices. And like the first matrix was a paradise and yeah people hated it.
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, they just rejected the programming. And I feel like it's a so it's kind of a similar thing. If if there were no mysteries, if everything was very straightforward and boring, yeah, I think you're right. The magic would be lost. I mean, there would be, it would be, I don't know. it it's it's hard It's hard to imagine what that would be like because mystery is such a part of our lives. But no, I think it would be horrible. I don't think I could stand it.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, it would be really tough. Have I ever, so like I, one of the many things I consider doing in my life, but one of them, even though I'm not the world's best person at math, I consider cryptology, you know, like the the art of like saw breaking codes, code breaking and stuff like that. I ah just love.
00:36:53
Speaker
Any and every puzzle I can potentially get, and I remember first time I ever visited CIA headquarters, they have this puzzle called cryptos there, right? And it's it's like as you, it's not the, is it the main? Yeah, it's the it's the new headquarters building it's in front of.
00:37:10
Speaker
And it was a puzzle that was built that they've been trying, people have been trying to solve forever. Like the people over at the National Security Agency try to solve it because they want to beat the yeah CIA people to solve it. And you'll love this spread. So this is the first time I've ever been there. Two things that I didn't realize. One, leave your cell phone in the car. You're not supposed to take it in the building. So that was mistake number one. Do not lawyer.
00:37:37
Speaker
for 30 minutes outside the sculpture either as a part of it. But I always thought it was kind of funny that like I go to visit this cool place like the CIA for the first time, and I'm like way more fascinated by this crazy sculpture sitting outside of it. um and you know Every now and then, I'll read stories about how people have come close to solving it or they're about to break it. um and you know like Even though I think it's so cool,
00:38:07
Speaker
I kind of like, I'm, I'm almost fearful that people will solve it. Like I'm fearful that people will find the law city of Atlantis and explain it. And then I'll be like, Oh no, it was, it was Richard Allen and Delphi. It's gonna be way more boring than I wanted. Um, and you know, I think of things like going back into our literature and our, our, our fables, whether it's like,
00:38:37
Speaker
um the quest for the Holy Grail as an example. um All these things are making me think that part of what you said before, it's bringing me back to what you said before, that part of this is really, part of mysteries are really an opportunity for us to go on a journey, but not just that. Like you talked about the web sleuthing communities, but it's to go on a journey together, a shared journey,
00:39:04
Speaker
with other people where we can like learn and we can talk about. and I think about the podcast the same way. It sparks conversations that I thinking about the people in your community, I don't think we would normally have with each other if these stories and these mysteries weren't there that opened doors for us to talk about all sorts of things we would have never never never done. No, I think you're right. and and that's One of the reasons why you want to you want to solve the mysteries for lots of different reasons, but solving them is an end and him in a lot of ways. And we keep talking about different movies and books and everything else. I mean, I'm sure you've seen Memento.
00:39:49
Speaker
oh yeah And in one of not to give away the ending of a twenty five year old maybe if you haven't seen it but one of the things is at some point he. The whole point of the movie he's he's trying to find the person who killed his family and you realize at some point that he found them and he avenged his family.
00:40:11
Speaker
But he makes a decision that he's going to destroy the evidence of that because he knows that what gives him purpose in life is to search, is to search it's the look. Yeah. And he knows that once he's found it, then it's over. And the sort of striving for something, I think, is is what gives us purpose. And you're absolutely right.
00:40:33
Speaker
while we're looking for it together, we're all together, we're all searching, but once we find it, what's gonna happen? Well, then we're all gonna go our separate ways, right? Like, we'll shake hands, tell each other, good job, found the found the treasure. yeah go We'll go our separate ways. And that's there's something about that that's, you know, that's that's, it's like at the end of Indiana Jones in the last crusade, they all ride off together, right? But the adventure's over. They're going separate ways.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, and and I agree with you. I think ah being the the search is the joy. The finding will always be disappointing. Yeah.
00:41:15
Speaker
Well, I think like ah it reminds me of, um, you know, you two in their album, Joshua Tree, they have, I still haven't found what I'm looking for. Um, and you know, that's, that's one of the songs in the line is I still haven't found what I'm looking for. And they talk about like climbing the highest mountains and doing all these different things that like, maybe part of the point isn't to really find it's to do those things that climb those mountains and go out on those seas and travel that journey.
00:41:45
Speaker
together. you know I often talk about like things like suffering suffering or things that unite us, right? We have the shared, everyone goes through suffering, but everyone also has questions and everyone also has things that they're trying to understand and it's nice to be on the boat with people who are taking that same journey.
00:42:09
Speaker
No, I think so. I think, I think in so many ways, that's what, that's what ties us together. And in, in this time in particular, and we've talked about this before, there are so few things that bind us. It seems like and seems like yeah that of boundness have kind of fallen away.
00:42:29
Speaker
And I think grabbing onto those things that bring people together is probably more important now than ever. Yeah. Yeah. And I even think about your community and I think about the diversity of views and races and life experiences and political views among the people, but we all still have this bond. And I'm so shocked to you and I would get to the end of a conversation. It would all come back to the community.
00:42:54
Speaker
and really ah
00:42:59
Speaker
belonging. and There's something beautiful about it, I think. Anyway, well, I was going to just want to thank you, Brad, again, for coming in and give you a shot if you want to, if you want to offer any sort of like closing thoughts or also, you know, where are you guys? Are are you guys headed in the same direction and with a podcast in terms of pursuing, continue to pursue some of these mysteries?
00:43:23
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. and Yeah. I mean, my, my parting message would be never start, never stop looking. And the great thing is we've talked about how awful it would be if we ran out of mysteries. That's never going to happen. I remember when we started the podcast, I thought, man, we're going to do this for awhile and then we'll run out of cases. And then I guess we'll just stop and I'll look at our, our case lists. Now it's like 500 cases long and in think we could do this for the rest of our lives. It never run out.
00:43:51
Speaker
And that's a joy and I hope ah hope people will stay on that journey with us. Yeah. Well, I plan to. So thank you very much. Thanks for joining us for this conversation. If you'd like to join us for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including an awesome listener-run Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For ad-free and early episodes and deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, including bonuses, like one with Brett on the Dyatlov Pass incident,
00:44:28
Speaker
You can join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings Handbook. I'm Jason Blair. This is the Silver Linings Handbook. We'll see you all again next week.