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101. Justice for Love Lost with Kristina Byington
12 Plays2 months ago
Kristina Byington joins us, whose cousin, a young college student named Anita Byington, was murdered in 1991 in Austin, Texas. We're going to discuss what it's like to be a victim's family member, what it's like to find the sense of peace only to have it taken away, and what it's like decades later to still fight for a family member and a friend who's long gone.
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Transcript
Family Ignored by Authorities
00:00:00
Speaker
So my hope is to shine a light on that, on things like this that are happening, where the family members of murder victims are just thrown to the side. you know At this point, the DA's office will not even return my calls. you know I can call asking them for help, I can email them asking for help, and they won't respond. and That's retribution for speaking out, but what else am I supposed to do?
00:00:28
Speaker
you know When I see things that are happening that aren't right, you have to say something. Like you said, if I hadn't spoken out, all you would be seeing is articles about this poor, wrongfully convicted man, and that's all you would see. A point is that there is a case possibly to be made for his innocence, but it wasn't conducted correctly.
Anita's Murder Case Background
00:00:51
Speaker
If he's truly innocent, bring out all the evidence to the judge, all of it, and let's let her decide That's Christina Byington, whose cousin, a young college student named Anita Byington, was murdered in 1991 in Austin, Texas. This is the Silver Linings Handbook. I'm Jason Blair.
00:01:28
Speaker
k Christina Byington was 26 years old when her first cousin, a college student named Anita Byington, went out with friends in Austin, Texas on a Saturday night in late August. The following morning, Anita was found brutally beaten to death in a grassy area behind a building in an East Austin apartment complex.
00:01:50
Speaker
Law enforcement initially said they believed that Anita, a student in her junior year at Southwest Texas State University, located between Austin and San Antonio, had been at clubs on Austin's 6th Street Saturday with friends who worked for the Texas legislature. The police believed Anita gave one of those friends a ride to his truck in the apartment complex. The man would later tell police that he had last saw Anita at 3 a.m.
00:02:20
Speaker
The police were unsure of what happened between then and when her body was discovered three and a half hours later. Kathleen Fite, an associate professor at Southwest Texas State University, told a local paper Anita's death was a quote, tragic loss of life. Fite said she wanted to do the very best. Everything I could say would be positive. She was a beautiful girl, very, very attractive.
00:02:50
Speaker
She gave good eye contact and that encouraged others to listen to her. A month before Anita's death, a 23-year-old shoe store manager named Michelle Lisa Wagner was last seen at a North Austin Country and Western Club and was found the next day in a creek eight miles away. A man would be arrested in that crime a month after Anita's body was found, but based on newspaper accounts, the city was on high alert. Law enforcement began to circle in on suspects,
00:03:20
Speaker
As a rosary was recited at Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Falferas, the south Texas town where many of Anita's relatives lived. Arrests would soon be made by the time her funeral mass was celebrated the next day. Within days, by Tuesday, the police said an attempted drug deal may have triggered Anita's death when they arrested 26-year-old Alan Andre Cowsey and 24-year-old Bobby Harrell, Jr., a resident of the apartment complex. Both men were charged with intentional murder.
00:03:55
Speaker
The Austin American Statesman newspaper reported that Cowsey told police that the two men confronted Byington in the parking lot, and quote, a disagreement over crack cocaine ensued. The paper said that the police affidavit said that Anita attempted to flee but was physically stopped by the men and died of a head injury at about 5 30 a.m. Physical evidence included blood that was found on nearby concrete.
00:04:24
Speaker
Ultimately, prosecutors concluded that there was not enough evidence to prosecute Harrell, although law enforcement remained steadfast about his involvement.
Cowsie's Confession and Conviction
00:04:33
Speaker
Cowsey, prosecutors said, confessed to the murder. He would later say, though, that he was tricked into the confession. The defense attempted to have the confession suppressed at trial and failed to have the case overturned based on those grounds.
00:04:48
Speaker
Within seven days of his trial beginning, it had concluded the jury deliberated for 12 hours and convicted Cauzy. The punishment phase of the trial was held and Cauzy was sentenced to 50 years in prison for Anita's death. Christina grew up with the rest of her Mexican-American family in Phophorus, a middle child who is the daughter of two educators.
00:05:10
Speaker
Both Christina's brothers became attorneys. k Christina said that growing up, Anita, who was an only child, was more than a cousin, but like a sister. Now, in addition to caring for her elderly mother, Christina has taken the uncomfortable position of being the family's advocate and the nightmare that opened up 31 years after Anita died.
Reinvestigation Begins without Family
00:05:31
Speaker
That's when, in 2022, the elected Travis County, Texas district attorney, Jose Garza, a reform-minded prosecutor, partnered with the Innocence Project of Texas and what the family felt was a politically motivated one-sided effort to get Cowsie released.
00:05:49
Speaker
The situation is reminiscent of the recent case of the murder of Haman Lee, an 18-year-old Woodlawn, Maryland woman whose boyfriend, Adnan Saeed, was convicted of her 1999 murder. After the 2014 Serial Podcast cast doubts on Saeed's guilt, he became one of several darlings of the conviction and integrity and innocence movements focused on overturning wrongful convictions.
00:06:15
Speaker
Many of Said's appeals were swatted down until a trial court judge two years ago vacated his conviction and released him. That decision was reversed earlier this year by the Maryland Supreme Court on the grounds of the judge and the prosecutors seeking to vacate Said's convictions trampled on Lee's family's rights. Texas has no similar law to Maryland's Declaration on Victims' Rights.
00:06:40
Speaker
Now, Christina spends her days advocating during the judicial review of Cowsey's conviction. Today, we're going to discuss what it's like to be a victim's family member, what it's like to find the sense of peace only to have it taken away, and what it's like decades later to still fight for a family member and a friend who's long gone.
00:07:15
Speaker
Hey, Christina, I just wanted to thank you for joining. I know... um It takes a lot probably to have conversations like this. you know It's probably emotionally exhausting and difficult to be able to talk like topics about topics like this. um We had the opportunity to connect with each other online through True Crime Communities. And you know I have watched in the background as you've talked about your cousin's story. And you know I know that things like this are so difficult and painful. so
00:07:50
Speaker
I appreciate your willingness, not only to fight for justice or your cousin, but also to share the experience with other people because I think it's so important in any coverage, whether it's true crime or otherwise, for ah us as people to understand what it's like to be affected by it. So thanks for coming
Remembering Anita
00:08:10
Speaker
on. I appreciate that. but Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And I appreciate your interest in in this story.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's um, yeah, it's not you know, one of the things that I've realized over time that when you have You know innocence cases or cases where there's an argument about innocence We we rarely get the opportunity to actually talk to the victim's family members regardless of how they feel about the innocence or not they're often very much in the background and I think You know it is somewhat unique to have a have a voice out here like this um but you know one of the things i think when we tackle issues like this that we forget to do is we often talk about the crime we often talk about um the trial and the events afterwards but sometimes we don't talk enough about.
00:09:03
Speaker
the person who was lost. So I wanted to start by asking you just a little bit about what Anita was like and what your relationship with each other was like. Cause I knew you grew up together and and and just what that was like and what she was like.
00:09:18
Speaker
Well, she was four years younger than I was, um but she was the boss in our relationship, even though she was younger. She had that type of personality. you know She was real funny, mischief mischievous. um She had the most amazing laugh. you know She was just always in for some fun.
00:09:38
Speaker
you know just always laughing. um She was an only child and I didn't have any sisters. So to me, she was like my little sister, you know, and she had no siblings. So ah she lived in Houston, which is quite a ways away from where I live. um But every time, you know, they'd come down here often, you know, to visit family and everything. And I can remember just counting down the minutes waiting for them to get here. you know and Then we'd go to our grandmother's house and have slumber parties and you know tell tell secrets, things like that. Just the best times. I mean just i have so many wonderful memories from from those times. We'd stay up late giggling.
00:10:24
Speaker
Things like that. um We'd go to the beach every summer and spend a week, both of our families, with everybody, cousins, grandparents, you know, everybody. And those were just the best times of my life. You know, if I could go back to any time in my life, it would be one day, one hour there at the beach with with everyone. and And, you know, in all this time, I've never been back to the beach and it's been 33 years. Wow. Where'd you guys go? South Padre.
00:10:52
Speaker
and Okay. Okay. no And you've never, I've never been back. Yeah. Down by Brownsville along south of Galveston and all the way down on the border with Mexico. Why haven't you gone back? It would have been too painful. It was my memories there are of her, you know, and then it was just too hard. And then now I think I'm ready to go back, but gosh, it's just,
00:11:17
Speaker
And that same condo that we stayed at is still there. And I need to go back, but it feels like if I went back, it would be like facing all these ghosts, you know, because her, our grandmother, her parents now, my dad now, my brother, all of these people that were were there, they're no longer with us, you know, and it's, but I feel like I need to go back. I really do.
00:11:43
Speaker
them It's hard to like revisit. I remember after 9-11 because I was there on the day of September 11th and you know several other places I can think about, but it took me years to go back to ah Ground Zero.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah i left new york and i would literally on my first two trips back i would like go downtown go to city hall and then like literally walk around ground zero like a really far away to avoid it but i did find some healing when i finally was able to do it but it took decades i mean.
00:12:21
Speaker
it It was only until like recently that I was able to do it. so When you guys were growing up, it sounds like you had brothers, right? Two brothers, yes. so you You had two brothers. She was an only child. so It was really like you two were we sisters to each other. What do you what do you know about like her hopes and her dreams for growing up?
00:12:46
Speaker
i She wanted to be a teacher, you know and she was studying to be a teacher. She liked working with kids. she had I believe she had a part-time job at a daycare center, and she loved it with little kids. you know and So that's what she was studying for. She wanted to be a teacher.
00:13:05
Speaker
That's nice. And then, you know, she was she was living in Houston. She was you guys were on the other side of the state in the southwest ah part of the state. How often did you guys see each other? um Yeah, I saw her probably.
00:13:21
Speaker
around once a month, maybe more or less, sometimes more, sometimes less. you know And when she was older, when they'd come to town, I'd take her to school with me. So she met my friends. you know She'd go riding around with me because she was four years younger. you know I was in high school and she was still a little kid. you know So she wanted to go everywhere with me. and um So yeah, we saw each other pretty often, I would say at least once a month.
00:13:48
Speaker
So you were like ah really not just a sister, but you were like a big sister to her. yeahm Yes, I always looked out for her, always. Yeah. what What kinds of things can you remember just making sure she was safe or smart about things or? Yeah, things like that. Making sure she was safe. Like I would see older guys, you know, hitting on her and stuff like that. And I just made sure to keep a really close eye on her because she was my little cousin, you know, my little sister. That's that's how I felt about her. And I would protect her over anyone, you know,
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah, I get that. It's kind of the way I felt about my brother when growing up. Like I was probably not a particularly temperamental person, but like if you cross the line with my brother, that's always what would get me. So, you know, Anita went off to college. She was still sort of like away um from where you were. How did you find out that she had been murdered? What did you first, do you remember what you first heard?
00:14:50
Speaker
Yes, I was living in Edinburgh, Texas, which is an hour south of here. And I didn't have a phone. And it was around it was in the afternoon. and And I was asleep because I worked overnight so at that time. And I heard pounding on my door. And and it was one of my closest friends. And and she said, hey, i I came to take you to Falfurious. And In my head, I'm thinking, no, I'm going to work. And i you know I'm not going to Balbirias. And she said Anita was murdered. And I just remember being, what? And I remember even asking her, is she dead? And she said, yes, we need to go. And I remember going to a payphone and trying to call my parents and busy, trying to call my grandmother busy, trying to find out
00:15:36
Speaker
anything because like I couldn't imagine murdered. So um we drove back here and it it was like an hour drive. And I remember on the drive talking about everything other than that, you know, like nothing had happened. I think I think i was in shock.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, because we were just talking about ordinary things and that st struck me as so odd. And then we got to my grandmother's house and my parents were there and a lot of other people. And as soon as I saw my grandmother, I just lost it, started crying. And that's when it became a real thing for me. Did you guys end up um going to Austin at that time or did you? wouldn No, um no, my brother did um maybe a day after the funeral or something to go get her car from the police station and clean out her apartment and things like that. But no, the the first night we were just there at my grandmother's and it's a small town. So a lot of people start gathering, you know, and the next,
00:16:45
Speaker
I remember calling her parents that night and just not knowing what to say at all. And then the next day they were coming in from Houston and we all met at the funeral home where we were waiting for them to bring her from Austin. And some of us went in to see her and my mother kept saying, don't, don't go. I said, no, I need to go in there. Come with me. And she said, no, but she followed me in there. And,
00:17:14
Speaker
I have very little memory of it. I just remember walking in there and seeing her and my mother was behind me and she said that she thought I was falling backwards. That's how severe my reaction was oh because her body had not been ah fixed up or anything. And so I was in there just less than a minute. Her mother was in there for hours with her. It's just, uh, yeah, I'll never forget that.
00:17:42
Speaker
And so what was it like for the family in the aftermath in terms of waiting for some kind of answers?
Struggles for Information
00:17:50
Speaker
Because I know usually when something like this happens, the family has little more than, um, what, what you see in the local newspaper. I remember her father either coming to the house or calling my father saying they got him, you know, he confessed.
00:18:12
Speaker
And that's all we knew at the time that somebody had confessed. And how did it unfold after that? I've always been curious in cases like this, did the police and law enforcement, did they tell you things before they were announced publicly or did you find out when everybody else found out because it was in the newspaper or press conference? How did that work? um I'm not exactly sure. Her parents were the ones who talked to law enforcement and the DA's office and all that, and they didn't really discuss the case openly. you know It wasn't something that we would bring up unless they told us something. you know so I'm not exactly sure how everything was handled back then, but I do know that they knew somebody had been arrested, I believe before it was out in the news.
00:19:03
Speaker
yeah and Did you all um eventually go down for the trial? I wasn't able to go down, but um but a lot of other people did. My parents did. One of my brothers, um Anita's closest friend, who is friends with me now and has been helping me with this, she went to every single day of the trial. A lot of family members were there and a lot of her friends were there.
00:19:30
Speaker
And she, from what I had read when I was looking at the newspaper, it sounds like she had, you know, she was out that night with friends who were working, I think some of them in the Texas like legislature, but I heard some of, read some of the quotes about her and it sounds like she had a broad group of friends, but also a broad group of older people like her teachers and professors who saw a ton of potential in her is that is that yes yes and I remember at her funeral there was outside of the church there were like two long lines like. Of her friends that came from San Marcos and and Houston just a whole lot of them standing there like um as we walked in which I thought was such a nice thing.
00:20:20
Speaker
When do you over the years, so eventually it takes about a year for it to go to trial, right? Yeah, it was almost exactly a year. before it went to trial. And then, you know, you mentioned that some of the, some of your family members actually went to the trial and, and, um, kind of absorbed what was, what was happening there. Um, and, and, and eventually like relatively quickly, uh, you know, there was a conviction and the sentence of, um,
00:20:53
Speaker
50 years. of At least at least at least one of the two potential suspects, yeah right? Because Andre Kazi was one. ah Then his friend who lived in the apartment complex was also one of the suspects, but they just ended up ah charging Causley with it um what it. What did it feel like? Because I've always wondered, you know one of the things that I've really believed is like when somebody loses someone, period, to anything, but particularly to a violent crime, there's no complete closure. There's no complete justice because justice would be getting the person back.
00:21:33
Speaker
Right. But what did it feel like at that time? Was there some, some sort of feeling or sense of relief? Oh yes, there was. I mean, 50 years and that was a relief. Okay. Somebody's going to pay for this. And in my head, you know, this is probably wrong, but all these years hoping that he didn't have an easy time in there, you know? Hmm.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I know that's probably wrong, but that's the way I felt. well but What did you mean by that? the yeah Is it like the idea of, because, you know, we talk about the idea of like prison, right? And part of prison is, you know, the purpose is rehabilitation. The purpose is also incapacitation so the person can't hurt other people. Part of the reason why people go to prison is literally punishment, right? Retribution for their, um,
00:22:33
Speaker
for their actions. um you know We talk about you know we talk about that the... Because I think it's comfortable for us to talk about things like rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence is another part of it, right? For the public deterrence. And the final piece is punishment. And I think we we tend to shy away from the punishment part of it, but I really do believe that a part of justice is also retribution, but when you lose someone to murder, there's there's almost no retribution that would be great enough to feel like justice. Yeah, there's there's none. and yeah The thought of punishment was ah in my mind you know during during these years. i mean Honestly, I was hoping that he'd never get out.
00:23:31
Speaker
What do you mean by that? That he would spend the rest of his life in prison. That the 50 years would cover the rest of his life. Right. Yeah. When the case was, you know, the sentence went down, he got the 50 years and you guys began to to sort of like move on with your lives. You never, you know, that's the thing about grief that I've learned, like,
00:23:57
Speaker
You never get past it. You always live with your grief because I just posted this card recently on Facebook. That's a quote from my dad. You know, my mom died in October and he had just made a comment. We were talking about grief and he had said grief.
00:24:14
Speaker
is just love that has nowhere to go. And so it really got me thinking that grief really never ends. It's about finding peace in your grief, not getting past your grief. What was the what was it like after after the sort of bustle of the case was over and you guys were still dealing with your grief? What was that like? It was it was difficult. i I remember sleeping with my lights on for months.
00:24:44
Speaker
being being afraid of strangers. you know um I guess that's how murder impacts you. you know and and So your grief is intertwined with this horror.
00:24:55
Speaker
you know it's It's a different kind of grief than, say, if somebody died in an accident or of an illness, which is still just as bad and and and the grief is still strong. But with murder, there's just an aspect of horror that is always going to be in your grief, you know?
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah, because there's the extra fear. I, I was talking to somebody actually on the podcast whose cousin, um, was murdered by a serial killer who has not been caught, identified people know who it is, but he's not been caught. And she said that it like transformed her life. And she remembers this one moment where she was walking down the street in the city out and on the West coast. And she saw this like 16 year old girl,
00:25:47
Speaker
about a little younger than her cousin at the time. And she had her headphones in and she was just merrily walking down the street, not paying attention to anyone or anything.
00:25:59
Speaker
And she ran over to the woman before she could even think about it and sort of like shook her and said, you have to pay attention to where you are. And one of the things we were talking about is like when you experience something like a murder, um it changes the way that you look at everything in the world.
Impact on Christina's Worldview
00:26:18
Speaker
like things that may have been just sort of like gentle or friendly, like meeting a new person may have a different element of caution or fear or, or other aspects. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yes. Yeah. Watching a movie and seeing somebody get beaten up, you know, or anything like that, it comes up a lot, you know, um,
00:26:44
Speaker
And for for a long while you know it lasted a good while and then it it fades a little bit and it's in the back of your head you know it's always there she was murdered she's gone it's always there but i guess you just learn to cope with it and it's.
00:27:01
Speaker
Like on a back burner you know kind of but now with this coming back it's it's almost as if she got killed again now you know it it just brings everything back to the forefront. How did you find out that the case was being challenged.
00:27:19
Speaker
One of the witnesses in the case, one of the girls that was with her that night called me in December of 22 and said that she had gotten a call from the DA's office and they wanted to talk to her about the murder case, but they wouldn't give any information. And so we didn't know what the heck was going on. And then the other girl that was with them that night She got a visit from a lawyer from the Innocence Project and an investigator with the DA's office together. and they They left it. That's the Innocence Project of Texas and an investigator from the District Attorney's Office. Right. Together. Together. and That was confusing to me because I said, aren't they usually on opposite sides? you know Why would they be wanting to interview a witness together?
00:28:10
Speaker
and So, and I had a picture of both of the cards that they had left there. And so I went on Facebook and looked up the Innocence Project of Texas, scroll down a little bit. And there's a post of Kazi and his wife smiling. And, you know, they were using him as a fundraiser, you know, donate here so that our clients can be home for the holidays with their families. And it was just horrific seeing.
00:28:36
Speaker
Seeing his picture there, oh i i had we had no idea that anything was happening with the case. Nobody notified us. so That's what I was going to ask. It sounds like from what you're saying, by the time you guys found out and you didn't find out directly, nobody had come to you.
00:28:54
Speaker
um By the time you found out, obviously, the Innocence Project of Taxes had looked into the case and it kind of makes sense they wouldn't say anything about it. But they had obviously gone to the DA and the DA had done some kind of investigating on their part if they were showing up together with the Innocence Project.
00:29:13
Speaker
and No one from the family had been notified. do you do you is that is that Is that a normal thing that the families wouldn't be notified if ah if someone's looking at the integrity of a conviction? I don't know. you know i asked I asked what happened. was so That same week after I saw that, I called the investigator because I had the card and she explained a little bit what was going on.
00:29:40
Speaker
and i I asked her, why wasn't any family notified? and She said, we we couldn't find any family. But I told her, but we're registered in the system. I'm registered in the system. So I would get notifications every time he was up for parole, anything like that. Myself, my brother, and several other relatives, we're all in the system as her relatives. So in my opinion, they didn't try. In my opinion, they they wanted to.
00:30:09
Speaker
get this exoneration through you know as smoothly as possible with no no pushback from the family. So the easiest thing for them to say is, oh we weren't aware of any family. do you know Do you have any idea what caused them to reopen the case?
00:30:28
Speaker
um the I believe he had written to the Innocence Project And the DA's office got some sort of grant to work with the Innocence Project on certain cases spanning within certain years to reinvestigate these cases. So I believe that's how it started. Were these all cases that related to the detective who had been working caused this case or was it broader than that?
00:30:59
Speaker
ah but I believe they were related to Detective Polanco. Okay. so they were so so To some extent, they may have been reinvestigating all of Polanco's cases. um What did the investigators tell you at that point about you know once you did contact them about what the process was going to be like, or were they going to come out and talk to you guys? or what What did they tell you at that point?
00:31:25
Speaker
She told me that they were reinvestigating and she made it seem like it was a technicality because at one point she told me, even if an inmate writes us a letter, we have to reinvestigate. That's what she told me. you know and so I wasn't sure what to make of all this. um She did say that they were going to be looking at DNA. and At that point, I said, well, that's great because maybe they'll find something on Bobby Harrell after all these years. and I told her that I would like to be as involved as possible in in this invest you know in this case, and to be updated frequently as to what was happening. and she said sure and i She asked me if I wanted to speak with the da in charge of and the assistant DA in charge of of this case, and I said yes. In fact, I had already left her a message. and This was in December of 2022, and eight months went by, and I heard nothing from them at all.
00:32:25
Speaker
o and and Later on, once we got some documents, we learned that during that time, they were working on this case, having secret hearings with the judge, signing off on certain aspects of his innocence already. But they they portrayed it to me like, well, we're just investigating and you know we haven't made any determination.
00:32:48
Speaker
on as to his innocence or guilt and you know just i mean they were just lying because we have documents signed documents from months before you know so it's yeah it's been a mess ever since the start with the da's office what happened at that eight-month point the witness called me again and she told me they called me again this morning because they're having a hearing in front of a judge this afternoon This was in October of 23 and nobody had called us or anything. It had been 10 months, so I had to start calling them back myself. Do you know why they called her? Did they want her to appear at the hearing? They wanted to interview her.
00:33:31
Speaker
because she was with her that night and see they're trying to pin everything on Kevin Harris so they're trying to get anything they can on Kevin Harris. And Kevin Harris is the alternate suspect man. Yeah, but he was the one that he was out with him that night and she had ah given him a ride to his vehicle which was in that apartment complex, is that right?
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know where his vehicle. No, his vehicle wasn't there. okay It was somewhere else. so that That's one of the things is they're they're trying to say that Kevin Harris is a sole murderer.
00:34:06
Speaker
you know he took her to this random ah apartment complex, raped her there, and murdered her there. At some random apartment complex where he didn't live, yeah it just it doesn't make sense. And so he he had been a witness who, he had been with all of them that night, he had been a witness initially in the beginning and they had said, you know,
00:34:31
Speaker
he It was like 3 AM m or 3.30 AM m was the last time he saw her, and then somewhere between then and 6.30 in the morning, or she had she had been killed. Did you guys ever wonder whether he was involved in it? Not to my recollection. um The only thing that we always thought, and I believe the police and the prosecutors prosecutors always thought,
00:34:59
Speaker
Was that he was lying, you know, he he changed his story several times. He had a cut on his arm the next day. Um, I've always believed that he was with her. I don't know exactly what happened, but he took her there. He was trying to make some sort of drug deal. When things went bad, he fled and left her there to be killed.
00:35:22
Speaker
and that she got caught but but by by the dealers. So I'm assuming at this point you know about the hearing, you've reached out to them, um they've asked her friend to testify, that day did they get back to you before the hearing? Yes, at that time you know I started talking to the DA's office on a more regular basis. you know um In fact they offered to come here to where I live I believe two or three of them were going to come talk to me show me some of the stuff I guess. And um I asked them if my lawyer could be present and once they found out who my lawyer was they canceled the meeting. What do you mean? They refused to meet with me. Why?
00:36:10
Speaker
Well, my attorney was the original prosecutor in the case in back in 92. And so they're saying, well, he's a witness and this and that. And we said, OK, well, we'll meet without him then. No problem. And they refused. So did you get the feeling they just didn't want him anywhere near it?
00:36:30
Speaker
Oh, yes, because he showed up with us on the day of the first hearing, which was November 27. And um so we were in the audience at the hearing. And at one point, the judge started asking the defense, OK, and you all have kept the family um updated and notified and this and that. And Terry Keel, who is my attorney, he stood up and started talking and saying no, that they had not and that there was a family member who Would like to speak who would like to testify and it just caused a big ruckus in the courtroom in fact the judge had to tell them to act professionally because one of the attorneys from the innocence project started yelling at him and Accusing him a misconduct and all kinds of stuff and they were fighting so that I could not give a statement in court and the judge did allow me to make a statement, but he would not be on the record but
00:37:26
Speaker
shortly right then and there, they decided to name him as a witness in the case so that he could not be allowed to go to any more hearings. And so he had to leave then and there and was not allowed to attend any of the hearings and was never called as a witness.
00:37:44
Speaker
did you Now, did you all as family members attend the rest of the hearings? yes Yes. We went to every single one and so many of her friends showed up. and This is 33 years after the fact. and So many family members, we had a large crowd there and it was very touching to see that she's not been forgotten by any of us.
00:38:09
Speaker
So do you, in in thinking about what you know about the evidence, what they showed, what you heard about the hearings, is there ever a moment where you wondered that whether he was potentially innocent or would you even be open to the idea that he might be innocent? Yes, I mean, you have to be because I have no interest in you know an innocent man serving time for something that he didn't do. if If I believed he was innocent, I would be so vocal about that. you know But what I did was I got my hands on every document that I could get my hands on, the trial transcript, you know everything. and um I went to the trial transcript and I started taking notes.
00:39:01
Speaker
And I would mark down everything that pointed to Kazi's guilt from the trial transcript. And just from that, I have pages and pages and pages. You know, if anything, this investigation just affirmed my belief in his guilt. There's just too too many too too much evidence which leads directly to him.
00:39:26
Speaker
for me to believe he's innocent For me to believe that he's innocent, there's a lot of questions that would need to be answered adequately. and In these hearings, none of none of this was brought out. you know they they Since both sides were fighting for the same side, they can decide what to present to the judge in the hearings. and Anything that incriminated Kazi was, of course, left out.
00:39:54
Speaker
and that's a That's an interesting thing about it. And i want to I want to get back and ask you about what convinced you, but you made me think of something that the movement toward, and I'm not i'm not even talking about Innocence projects, but I'm thinking more about DA's offices for like the last decade have been setting up these conviction integrity units, you know, like in Baltimore when you have something like the Gun Trace Task Force.
00:40:23
Speaker
who were found doing corrupt things, including locking up people who didn't need to be locked up. These conviction integrity units can step in and they can review cases. But one of the real challenges is that if a prosecutor's conviction integrity unit is looking into something, there are only really two people. you know You've got the defense attorneys for the a person who's been convicted. You've got the prosecutors.
00:40:51
Speaker
If they're looking into it and they're on the same page, there are only two places where real pushback can come from. The police can say, hey, we disagree with you, prosecutor. We think this is solid. And then the other group, but but they have no voice, right? Because they're not the police aren't going to be represented in court.
00:41:11
Speaker
um And then the other voice is the victim's family members um who don't always in every state have the right to official representation. They're not really parties to it. And I was going to ask you before I asked you a little bit about his guilt, do you think that from the perspective of a legal system.
Families' Role in Legal Proceedings
00:41:33
Speaker
If we're going to explore, which you know you made the point before, you wouldn't want an innocent person in there. If we're going to explore these cases, one of the failings seems to be that once the prosecutors and the defense attorneys on the same side, the adversarial process is dead. right No one's asking questions. Do you think there's a better way to do this?
00:41:56
Speaker
There must be because that's exactly what happened in our case. You know, none of the witnesses are cross examined or asked tough questions or investigated or anything. You know, so there's nobody in there.
00:42:11
Speaker
fighting for the victim. It must have been heartening for you to see, you know, in August when the Maryland Supreme Court and the murder of Haman Lee, who was the 18 year old, who was, who was ah murdered in 1999 and Woodland, Maryland and her you know ah Former boyfriend Adnan Said was convicted of ah her murder in 2000, then the conviction was overturned and vacated in 2022, and then the Maryland appellate courts and finally the Supreme Court basically said,
00:42:53
Speaker
ah reversed it and reinstated the conviction. The core argument that the Maryland Supreme Court made based on their constitution and their declaration of human rights was that the core reason based on Maryland law was that the victims' families' rights were trampled on.
00:43:16
Speaker
And so you know they've set a precedent that's really strong in Maryland, which basically says that if you try to vacate a conviction, the victim's family not only has a right to be heard, but they have the right to be heard on the merits. And what they mean by that is on the actual evidence that they essentially become a party to the case. And I know every state doesn't have that, but is that something that you kind of hope for in Texas and other states that you actually can not only
00:43:48
Speaker
be heard off the record or even on the record, but that you get the opportunity to look into the evidence and respond to it like they can now do in Maryland. Yeah, I saw that and that was astounding. um Yeah, i hope I would hope that other states would would also you know pick that up because you're right, we were not a party to this case, so we had nothing. We couldn't say anything you know in court.
00:44:15
Speaker
The only thing we could do is file an amicus brief, you know, but on behalf of the family. But other than that, there was nothing we could do at all. Because I wonder whether, you know, while I think it can be a good thing to go back and look at cases, I wonder whether we really need to think in different ways about the the victims' families. I was going to jump back to what we were talking about before, too.
Convinced of Guilt
00:44:40
Speaker
What is it that convinced you when you did your research? um what do what What was it that convinced you?
00:44:48
Speaker
or got you to the point, I guess, because I think that's the way that you put it, that got you to the point where there would have to be a lot of answers for you to believe in his innocence. Well, the first thing, and I remember this from back when it happened, when Kazi testified at the pretrial hearing, this was in December of 1991,
00:45:14
Speaker
They asked him on the stand, were you threatened? And he said no. you know And um he said that he wasn't able to read his confession and he didn't know what he was signing. So that was his defense at the time. So basically saying that the police fabricated and typed out his confession and he just signed it without knowing what he was signing. This was in December of 91. By July of 92, when the trial was going to start,
00:45:43
Speaker
Sargent polanco had been in the news regarding other cases. All of a sudden causes defense change to i was coerced by polanco. And what it was what was it the plan co was ah accused of by that point i know he lost confessions coercion. Things like that.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I had read about like at least two instances, one where there was a believed that he had extracted false confessions and the, the really famous murder that I think happened the same year in Austin or around the same time that they call it the yogurt shop. It was a, I can't believe this is yogurt were four for girls, I think they were between the age of 13 and 17 were found dead at night in a yogurt shop when a police officer had seen that there was a fire. And, you know, I know those convictions were overturned. The confessions were false. There was one other one that I had read about where he
00:46:49
Speaker
he was able to extract a confession from a man about maybe I think of his killing his wife or his girlfriend who wasn't actually dead and that's the one that really really really caught their attention. So as these things were coming out, do you are are you saying you think Causey's defense shifted their strategy to match kind of what this detective had done in other cases. Completely because he was on the stand and they asked him, were you threatened? And he said, no.
00:47:24
Speaker
plain and simple. Then by the time July rolled around, it was I was coerced by Polanco, which means I was coerced and I confessed. But before he said the confession was fabricated and he couldn't read it. But yet when on the stand, he read a portion of his confession out loud without any trouble.
00:47:47
Speaker
e So that these kinds of things like when you're listening to what the current argument is right now, it gives you a lot of doubt. Yeah, that I remember thinking it even way back then, you know, um I didn't have access to the transcript back then. But now that I do, I mean, there's so much um him, you know, driving around the crime scene so suspiciously that two separate people wrote down his license plate.
00:48:16
Speaker
him getting out of the car and telling strangers, I didn't kill that girl, but I called the police, you know, which he didn't, um, things like that. Another thing that came out in the hearings.
00:48:28
Speaker
And the judge mentioned this and in her recommendation where he was at the jail and he said something like, I was with him, but I didn't kill nobody. I'm getting locked up for something I didn't do. Now his, his own defense brought out that statement. To me, that statement corroborates his confession down to the T. I mean, I was with him. Well, who is the him? It would have to be Bobby Harold because supposedly he didn't know Kevin Harris.
00:48:58
Speaker
And in his in his confession, he's pretty much saying that Harold was the main participant in the murder and he just helped him. So that statement, I was with him, but I didn't kill him. He didn't say we were nowhere near a girl or we didn't do anything. You know, he didn't say that. He said I was with him, but I didn't kill nobody.
00:49:18
Speaker
I know that for you, you're probably you know going to be spending a lot of time you know focused on the case. And I know recently a trial court judge said, hey, you haven't proven giving me enough evidence to prove his innocence and there's going to be appeal related to that and other hearings related to that. so I imagine the bulk of your time is going to be spent advocating for Anita right now, but can you imagine a day once this is resolved where you're fighting for victims' rights more broadly?
Advocacy for Victims' Rights
00:50:01
Speaker
Yes, yes. um
00:50:04
Speaker
I created a group called Travis County crime victims rise against D.A., Jose Garza, where other families who have gone through similar experiences, and there's a whole lot of them, crime victims, family members of murder victims who have been treated horribly by this D.A.'s office. And so I'm looking into taking online courses for victims' advocacy and things like that and planning to stay involved. Did you ever think
00:50:35
Speaker
After all that had happened before and that more than 30 years that passed in between, that after fighting for justice for Anita, that 30 years later, more than 30 years later, you'd be fighting for justice for her again.
00:50:51
Speaker
No, I never could have imagined this ever. It's so it's been really traumatizing going going through this. um you know I keep notes and stuff and I mean going through them, you just see like nightmare last night, another nightmare about hearings or another nightmare about Anita trying to help her. It's just constant now. The dreams now, like I had them at the beginning, now they're back.
00:51:19
Speaker
very frequent. you know it it just ah It's severely traumatizing. I imagine that it's like hard for you at times to even explain to people what um it feels like. How do you get comfort, support, and um take care of your mental health? Well, I have a lot of friends who are very supportive. not a lot of friends i have My friends that I have are close friends.
00:51:48
Speaker
That's a better way to word it. And they're very supportive. um Anita's friends, too. I've become friends with some of them. And so some of us, we're all going through this together. you know and And it helps a lot.
00:52:02
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't even think about the idea that like when someone dies in a situation like this, it's not just their family, it's all the people who loved or cared about them, people who knew them or were touched by them in some way, that there's an opportunity for you guys to be in it together, I guess. And to see like her closest friend, she probably wouldn't want me to mention her name, but to see you know her still,
00:52:31
Speaker
caring as much as she did back then. You know, she was more like a family member to her than just a friend. It just amazes me that, you know, I'm family, so I'm in the thick of this, you know, but so are others who are not related just because they cared that much.
00:52:50
Speaker
And that's the thing about like love. It's a powerful it's powerful thing. It's amazing you know like to see that you can lose someone 20, 30, 40 years ago and people still love them. They carry them in their hearts.
00:53:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I would think, you know, for just friends, you know, it just kind of become a faded memory or whatever. But no, these friends that she had were real friends, you know, for them to be so invested all these years later.
00:53:23
Speaker
That's rare, you know, and and it's ah it's a beautiful thing to see. Yeah, and it gives it sounds like it gives you strength too. Yes, quite a bit. And and the original prosecutor as well, Terry Keel, without him, um I don't know where we'd be just and he just helped us because it was the right thing to do.
00:53:42
Speaker
I was going to just sort of like give you a chance to have some closing thoughts because I think this is really I mean this is particularly helpful for me and I imagine for more people to understand what the experience is like for somebody who's going through this because often you know when you let's say Google somebody and there there's a claim of wrongful for conviction often you won't even see I like the murder of x y or z you'll just see stories about the wrongful convictions i think this is really helpful but i want to give you the chance for any closing thoughts but i also wanted to see.
00:54:25
Speaker
You know, what what are your hopes and dreams for this situation and your hopes and dreams for not just the families, as you pointed out, but all the loved ones of victims who who are who are going through what I guess is a necessary process of reexamining cases, but what are what are your hopes and dreams for those who love the victims?
00:54:50
Speaker
and what can What can we do better as a society and a legal system? Well, like in Travis County, my hope is that people see how things are being conducted with the DA's office there.
00:55:07
Speaker
you know um For example, when I first started speaking to them, and asking them about the case and everything. And I would say like, well, what do the police officers say? You know, the four police officers who were there the night he confessed. Well, they hadn't bothered to contact any of them, you know? So to me, they had an agenda with this case from day one to exonerate him, regardless of the evidence.
00:55:38
Speaker
And they conducted their investigation with that in mind, and that's not justice. you know So my hope is to shine a light on that, on things like this that are happening, where the family members of murder victims are just thrown to the side. you know At this point, the DA's office will not even return my calls. you know I can call asking them for help, I can email them asking for help, and they won't respond.
00:56:08
Speaker
and That's retribution for speaking out, but what else am I supposed to do? you know When I see things that are happening that aren't right, you have to say something. Like you said, if I hadn't spoken out, all you would be seeing is articles about this poor, wrongfully convicted man, and that's all you would see. A point is that There is a case, possibly, to be made for his innocence, but it wasn't conducted correctly. If he's truly innocent, bring out all the evidence to the judge, all of it, and let's let her decide. But the way this was handled, with all the evidence omitted, with the family member thrown off to family members thrown off to the side, things like that, it just wasn't conducted correctly, regardless of his guilt or innocence. you know and That's just not right.
00:57:02
Speaker
And like you said, that's not really justice. That's interesting. So like if all the evidence was on the table and the full picture was there, you'd be a lot more comfortable with the entire process, even if it had a had a had a result. Cause it sounds like what you're saying is you really want justice regardless of who it was, that you're not so wedded to the idea that it needs to be him, but you are wedded to the idea that there needs to be justice.
00:57:28
Speaker
right like if If the DA's always had the stance that you know we believe he's innocent and and they conducted this investigation, thorough investigation and all that, then I really wouldn't have any qualms with them. what you know Difference of opinion, but they're doing what they believe is right for justice. But what I saw, their actions, their investigation, it just was not on the up and up. and you know that That's why I started speaking out.
00:57:56
Speaker
I'm glad you did and I'm glad you have the courage to put your voice out there. So let me just thank you again. And I really appreciate your time. And, you know, hopefully at some point we'll be able to have another conversation once this has moved further in the process. But thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.
00:58:16
Speaker
If you'd like to join us for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener-run Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For ad-free early episodes and deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, you can also join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings Handbook.
00:58:45
Speaker
I'm Jason Blair and this is the Silver Linings Handbook Podcast. We'll see you all again next week.