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81. Not Missing the Moment with Jason Usry
262 Plays11 months ago
Jason Ursy joins to discuss his upcoming podcast, "Missing in a Moment," which will tell the stories of the lives and disappearances of missing people in a victim-centered podcast. Jason is a host of the true-crime satire podcast, "Santa, Maybe a Criminal" and "Missing in a Moment" is his first venture into reporting real-life stories. He discusses the differences and similarities between the two endeavors. Jason discusses the emotional risk involved in reporting on victims who are still gone and the people who inspired him on this endeavor. He also in discusses finding his moral compass in true crime and ethics in the space.
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Transcript
Introduction to True Crime Satire with Jason Usry
00:00:00
Speaker
You know, I kind of look at things as like, I'm, I'm going to take a look at the whole space. I'm going to take a look at the universe and there are things that commonly come up in the universe and I'm going to like make fun of those things. And then I think people, because a lot of these things are intrinsic to the experience, you know, when they're consuming true crime, they can recognize sort of the echoes of what the genre provides. And so if I can sort of, if you listen to my show, I say this all the time, that nostalgia is a big part of my show, and nostalgia is about remembering, you know, something. And I think even like that can be 20 years ago, and it can be 10 minutes ago. And so if I can take sort of the the memory of a moment, and
00:00:50
Speaker
Give someone sort of that feeling of this feels familiar. and you know push push it through, like that's sort of my and my approach. i don't I mean, there are plenty of things that I could do that are in the true crime space that are like specific cases that I could really, really, I could send up and I don't do it because I don't wanna harm the families and I don't want to necessarily make fun of it unless it is a sort of a pop culture reference to something specific.
00:01:21
Speaker
That's Jason Usry, the creator, the producer, writer, and head elf of the True Crime Satire podcast, Santa May Be a Criminal, and a forthcoming podcast on missing persons cases called Missing in a Moment. This is the Silver Linings Handbook podcast. I'm Jason Blair.
00:01:55
Speaker
Jason's background is marketing, which requires a deep understanding of people and what motivates them. He's also been an audio producer for more than half a dozen popular podcasts, including several true crime podcasts.
Usry's Unique Perspective in True Crime
00:02:10
Speaker
Jason has also been a guest multiple times here on the Silver Linings Handbook to talk about Santa Mabee's role as a palette cleanser in the true crime space. And he's come on to talk on episodes about writing. Jason grew up in a small town in Georgia where he learned the power of communicating to help heal and entertain people. And he's done that in different ways in his career. Back in 1997, while he was in high school, the epic James Cameron movie Titanic came out. That's where he realized that people of all races, genders and backgrounds could rally around the love story between the main characters as the HMS Titanic sank into the sea.
00:02:55
Speaker
That led Jason to write his first screenplay. Jason also works at a television station in Savannah, Georgia, where during his days, he helps lead a creative team focused on marketing the station. Work that requires understanding what an audience wants and needs. Jason says that Santa may be a criminal was born out of a love of true crime storytelling and satire. But if I had to venture a guess, it really came out of a love of people, a vocation he and I share in common.
00:03:27
Speaker
Since then, he's become a sort of mayor of true crime, developing deep relationships with people across the genre, including journalists, advocates, analysts, and entertainers. I want to thank Jason, obviously, for coming on this episode, but I also want to thank his partner on his new podcast, Missing in a Moment, Carly Fulham, both for the idea of having this conversation and for supporting and helping him shape the idea of Missing in a Moment.
Balancing Ethics and Audience Needs in True Crime
00:03:58
Speaker
Today we're going to discuss the different genres of true crime creation, ethics in the profession at large, the current debate about ethics and true crime, and how to delicately balance the needs of your audience with respect for others in being responsible.
00:04:15
Speaker
Jason, thanks for coming on again. You're in your competition with Julia Cowley to be the most frequent guest. I think she's got five. You've got four. Whoa, no, this is five. It's Ty now. Man, that look, there's no competition between me and Julia. She is amazing. So yeah to be even like close to her is is is quite an honor. Yeah. And since the last time we were on, you started editing her podcast, The Consult. So we can make our little pitch for it right now. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's amazing. Her and three of her former FBI behavioral analysis ah colleagues talk about cases right now. At the time of this recording, it's Robert Wan, a multi-part series, which is obviously very, is a case that's very, these were popular, but it's in in in the conversation right now because of the
00:05:15
Speaker
documentary and the prosecutors are also doing that, the Prosecutors Podcast, which I also edit, is doing that as well. and But they've done a number of different cases from Jody Angelo, Israel Keys, um and a number of other things. And in Julia is she's and She's an angel, she's wonderful to work with, she's kind, she's thoughtful. Another thing I think I appreciate the most about her is she is very, very thoughtful about her approach to analyzing these cases and not, um she doesn't seem swept up by emotion and I really appreciate that.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, certainly not sensationalism or any of the things that you hear people she's very responsible and thoughtful. You know, yeah, she's one of, you know, while she may not talk about ethics and true crime much, but you know, when you hear her talk about things that are very difficult, like victimology, and the background, the history of victims, it's always with an eye for what's relevant, right? You know, she's not sharing the things that are sort of gratuitous or necessarily, right? They may be interesting facts about people, but they may not be the most relevant thing. And so, so tell me a little bit about your new podcast.
Introduction to 'Missing in a Moment'
00:06:31
Speaker
um So yeah, so my new podcast coming out in
00:06:36
Speaker
I don't know, five months or so, ah is called Missing in a Moment, and it is about missing persons cases. And I'm not going to limit it just to missing and never found people, like they could be missing and murdered, but there are stories about people that have gone missing in a moment, and it's You know, it's about ah the times that we have with people and then the times we have without them. And then, um you know, just because someone's missing a moment doesn't mean their memory is a loss forever. And so it is just kind of trying to share stories that are very troubling for families and to keep their memories alive and
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited about it. I've i've kind of sort of test run it a couple of stories on my main show a couple times. I got a lot of very, very positive feedback, like overwhelmingly positive. So I decided I did want to do this. And so I'm super excited about. ah about carrying that forward and doing something in the true crime space while maintaining the same of your criminal universe. Fair. So is the idea there, like, I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but that idea that, you know, like, I usually say it in the context of death, but I think it applies to missing persons cases too. But in the context of death, as you die your first death, you know,
00:08:04
Speaker
when you die, you die your second one when you're forgotten. And, you know, just thinking about a lot of the conversations that I've had with um victims, families over, I don't know, the last year or so, um there, there is an importance to them. Um, beyond even necessarily just solving the case, not just solving the case, but that their loved one isn't forgotten that they don't forget their loved one. Like sure on a very deep level, you know, not wanting to forget that a couple of them have talked to me about not wanting to forget the sound of their voice, but that other people don't forget them or that idea that
00:08:45
Speaker
When you have a loved one who's missing, the world moves on eventually without you and and you don't. And I think people fear that. i Sure. Certainly not as much as fearing losing their loved one, but it's another, it's a compounding loss as the world. Yeah, sure. I mean, the trauma remains with them, especially, you know, in cases where, um, they they are continually re-victimized through media or whatever. um I think that ah most families just want to have they the stories of their loved ones told. I won i think part of the show for me, what which I'm trying to capture, is that though
00:09:32
Speaker
these victims are lost or missing. ah The families are champions and heroes for the way they carry on that story. And in a lot of cases, so is law enforcement. And sometimes law enforcement falls down on some of these things. I'm not going to shy away from that either. But I think that there are a lot of heroes and stories of missing persons and I want to make sure that all those people are are recognized. And also, if if we have um you know good leads on suspects, if there's good information on people that you know we can we can talk about, then we'll talk about those as well. But um but the the point of it is really just honoring the memory of people who've gone missing in a moment.
Case Study: The Morgan Nick Case
00:10:20
Speaker
And because it really is like looking at these cases,
00:10:24
Speaker
You know, it's, you know, Morgan Nick was, you know, eyes were off of her for literally out be like two minutes. Was that one of the ones you did on that? That's what it was, you know, on the Santa may be a criminal. feed Yeah. So, yeah, so she was at a little league ball game and I want to say it was 1996 and she went to chase fireflies with some friends and on the way back when the game was winding down, she was coming back and she stopped the tire shoe and
00:10:54
Speaker
you know Her friends were running back, and one of them hung back with her, and she said, I've got it. And then she was snatched. And it has never been found again. There's a very good suspect in that case. um But the um i mean the point is that her mom was you know did everything right. Her mom did not you know want to take her eyes off of her. you know There were plenty of people around. I mean, this seemed like a very, very safe place. um and You know yeah you know there's there's a good.
00:11:29
Speaker
documentary that ABC News did called Still Missing Morgan. i You can find it on Hulu right now. It goes through a lot of a lot of that that specific case and the specific suspect they end up kind of looking at. But um it is it's an extraordinary thing that in so many of these cases you have literally minutes of time that go by that you know, someone is not seen, and then they're gone forever. And so that's sort of the point is that, you know, we always have to be vigilant and and looking out for each other. And, um you know, these stories are horrible and troubling. So there is um that actually reminds me of something
00:12:14
Speaker
I recently had um a guest who has written about the Missy Witt case in Arkansas. And we were off mic, which I don't think she has any problem with me saying this. But I was saying, you know, this is such Missy Witt was a teenager who disappeared from ah in Arkansas also from ah um polling alley parking lot. She was eventually found and I said to her like, why have we not all heard of this case? And it was really interesting what her answer was. She said, oh, that's easy. Morgan next Nick disappeared right afterwards, which kind of just made me think, like, how do you choose which cases
00:12:56
Speaker
uh to cover in which cases not cover because I also think about you know some of the things cases of African Americans don't get covered as much cases or natives um certainly you know in the trans community there's all sorts of violence at least that doesn't get covered and even disappearances so how do you how do you how do you balance you know things that will be compelling for an audience with you know, some fairness and equity in and and what you pick because there's a natural desire to be able to relate right to the people that we're listening to. So how how do we make people, I guess, who may not look like us or may not have the same sexual orientation as us or the same? How do we how do we make that relatable to people, the humanity? Well, I mean, I think that, you know, they're
00:13:55
Speaker
I mean, for me, it's about storytelling. Storytelling is about finding the common ah the common thread, ah the theme that binds us all together. There are certain certainly common themes and and and common conversations that bring us together. um you know but A lot of my screenplays, I've never been a pirate. I read a pirate screenplay, um but I found the things that connected with me and I thought would connect with other people. um I've never I've never been a zombie I read a zombie movie um but I think in a lot of those you know what I mean like the the point is like i mean this is sort of a rambling answer but the there are I think there are common themes that people relate to and I think everybody can relate to the fact that. ah
00:14:44
Speaker
loss is devastating and having loss is devastating. And I think- In the universe, right? Yeah, absolutely, 100%, 100%. And so it's- It kind of goes back to like that idea of that moment where you noticed everybody was ah bonding over Titanic. It didn't matter. It didn't matter that yeah that that the power of storytelling is that you're able to kind of make those connections, which kind of brings me to I think one of the things that sort of inspired me to have you come back on was um Santa may be a criminal. You know, there have been a lot of debates recently around true crime and what
00:15:29
Speaker
You know, there's the broader, bigger debate about um what it's supposed to be ethically. Acutely lately, there have been some debates that I've been a part of um about, you know, journalism itself and how that sort of applies, like fact based reporting to the different types of of podcast or then podcast, different true crime um creators. And one of the things in those debates that I've heard people say is, you know, that it can't be entertainment. But I think that there's, it there's a kind of sort of, you know, we can debate about the semantics of what entertainment is. But generally, most things that we do outside of, let's say, our work and raising our kids and stuff like that is entertainment. And
00:16:21
Speaker
You know, for a lot of people, I think a lot of people who are on the victim's advocate side of it and families in this debate, not all of them certainly, but some of the prominent people that if you were not doing true crime as a form of advocacy, they don't consider it ethical. and One of the things i find really powerful about your podcast and maybe a criminal is that it is all satire it is all entertainment but it also allows us to have conversations about things that are super uncomfortable super difficult to have otherwise
00:16:56
Speaker
you had mentioned to me that you would become nervous about doing true crime episodes that were not satirical, like Santa may be a criminalized. What was it that helped you see that this was something important? And and what really inspired you to take this leap? So like you and I had discussed before, I had been quite a bit nervous about taking on actual true crime. I had been leaning into sort of the safety of the satire of Santa May be a criminal and I was comfortable in that space because that has been the vast majority of my work professionally has been
00:17:39
Speaker
in terms of narrative storytelling has been actually fictional. It has not been documentary or or true life stuff. So, I was very nervous about that because I felt like there was there's ah an extra responsibility to the families and things like that. However, I had a number of different people who suggested that I give it a shot and they thought that I would have a different approach in the storytelling than many other true crime podcasters. So, I decided to do that and Carly had mentioned Morgan Nick's case to me.
00:18:28
Speaker
And I looked at that and I was really struck by the imagery of the fireflies, which comes up in that case. She had gone missing while she after gone to catch fireflies with her friends. So I thought that was a really powerful image, something really powerful to start with. And sort of through that, the idea of theming the episodes based on something specific to the victim or to the case so sort of was born. When we were talking a few weeks ago, you mentioned that you'd gotten a surprising call from the mother of Morgan and Nick. Could you tell us about that and what it meant to you to get that call?
00:19:15
Speaker
And I produced that episode to drop in on February 3rd, which is National Missing Persons Day. And before that, shortly before that, I sent the episode to Morgan's mom, Colleen Nick, who runs the Morgan Nick Foundation. She started that, obviously, after Morgan went missing. and has helped hundreds of families over the last almost 30 years um process their their trauma and their grief and give them some hope in some very, very dark times. So so I sent the episode off to Colleen, sort of hoping I'd hear from her, but I didn't.
00:20:00
Speaker
And then at the end of May, I got a call from an Arkansas number and a voicemail, and it was from calling Nick. And she asked me to call her back. And we had this really amazing conversation where she thanked me for my work. She said she's very distrusting of a lot of content creators because many of them are, they don't really do the research. They sort of play fast and loose with facts and things like that, but she thought I'd done a very good job of the research.
00:20:39
Speaker
And she was very, very grateful for the way that I told the story and the empathy I showed their family and just my approach with the content and or with the case. and It was just a really great conversation. And once I told her that going back to the fireflies thing, I started to see a firefly, one firefly every night for weeks leading up to that. And the night that she called me, she called me during the day, but that night I stepped outside and I saw, I stopped counting and it doesn't.
Empathy in True Crime Storytelling
00:21:26
Speaker
And that was the only night before sentence that I've seen more than one Firefly. And I continue to see one Firefly. So I kind of feel like that's Morgan saying, thank you. And I certainly hope that missing a moment does her story justice. It helps keep her voice alive and that the other cases that we pursue and share. Well, I hope the families and of those missing persons and I hope that their memories are really, really are honored in a way that is special.
00:22:12
Speaker
So one of the things I was just really curious about is like how you decided to use and now you're venturing into something that touches a little bit more like an advocacy and storytelling podcast, but how did you originally decide to sort of use comedy and humor and how do how do you walk those, walk those lines of being the type of creator you want to be? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. It was a long question, by the way. It was a good one. So, you know, I think comedy is. Jason, it's it's what happens when you've covered the White House and you only get one letter. You said. I know. No, you know, it's it's you know, I think comedy is a is a way that we can all sort of come together, you know,
00:23:06
Speaker
There you don't laugh in a different language. You know you. The comedy is worth just like a common communication with with people and for this podcast like. I want to write something was funny and I don't know that like the. the social commentary really was in the calculus in the beginning. But as I continue to sort of look at like, I want to examine these tropes in true crime, I started to find more of them. And I started to like examine more of them and I started to like delve into how I felt about more of those things. And I sort of say things in the show that I think has
00:23:55
Speaker
re they have resonated with people, because I heard they they have. And it was always, you know for me, it was about having a laugh and sort of sending up the true crime genre. But in the process of comedy, I think you find your way to the truth. And I think comedy has to be intentional. You and I talked about this yesterday. um that there There are comedians that tell jokes and there are comedians that tell truths and that's one of the things I'm trying to do with my show is tell the truth about things and say things that are not popular to say that you and I couldn't say directly. More people are afraid to say or face. Right, right, exactly. Yeah, like that that there's some sort of fear, there's some sort of
00:24:45
Speaker
arbitrary like taboo around certain top topics that people don't want to talk about. And I think by saying things through like a comedic medium, it makes people think, and like I told you yesterday, You know sometimes people will tell me they listen to a show and like months later they'll come back and i'll say you know you said something that made me really think about. X topic and thank you for doing that and it it might be something that was one of the sort of challenging. Conversations so it's just that i mean i think it's an interesting device to use to actually start the conversation is certainly not.
00:25:25
Speaker
you know, the end all be all of those conversations, but it's, it's a start to the conversation. Oh, you know, it's interesting. I don't even think I've told you this, but, um, you know, we've certainly talked about like that, uh, the scenes that have to do with like suffering and loss, right? And how impactful they were for me during a time of, well, I think all times or times of suffering and loss. Now that I've, now I've learned more, but during an acute time, Oh, not that it's over. But um ah you know i I gave your podcast to a client not too long ago. um And this was somebody who's a college student. She's a sco college student. She was getting into that point where, you know, some of her misconceptions about the world were becoming a parent, like the imperfections of her parents were becoming a parent. And, you know, I gave her the podcast to listen to because i I was like, I want you to pay attention to the hopes and dreams, right? I know this is about Santa. I know you were going to laugh me out of the the room initially when I suggested, but like this character, Richie, is going through the arc that you're going through right now of, um,
00:26:42
Speaker
I'm losing your hoping dreams and then rebuilding it into something realistic and the point that i made to her was look there's a reason why this is comedy because none of us want to talk about this none of us want to talk about like. we We know we're going to talk about our major losses, our losses of our loved ones and other things, but we have a harder time. My point to her is talking about the loss of our hopes and dreams, our unrealistic hopes and dreams and our reforming of them. You know, we feel juvenile when we're talking about it. And I, yeah, I thought it was a good cool tool for, for um
00:27:21
Speaker
for her to think about, you know, because I was able to say, look, if this is in a creation, right, it's not just you. It's like something real for people. And yeah, I thought it was powerful. But how do you how do you navigate and thinking about it in true crime? Right. Like there's some things. And I think it's true of all comedy, like, you know, On January 7th, we weren't making January 6th jokes yet. Well, maybe so. But most people weren't. um You know, like, O.J. is probably fair game yesterday based on him dying in the great jokes I saw in my um feed. But I'm guessing in the smack dab in the middle of the trial, it probably wasn't that wasn't wasn't that that popular. how do you How do you decide what you can joke about and what you can't when you're in this spirit?
00:28:14
Speaker
Well, I try not to be um terribly specific. I try to make sure that what I'm doing is is, you know, lampooning, you know, sort of a trope or something that's sort of a common um observation in the and the true crime space. Like, you know, I'll tell you, like, you know, the O.J., you know, O.J.'s death yesterday, obviously I think he did it. All that it made me feel a little gross that there was so much celebration about his death.
00:28:47
Speaker
um You know, i like, he made me feel gross for the whole time he was alive, but it didn't mean that I want to celebrate, you know, someone dying because there he did have people that cared about him. um And unless I know that's not a popular opinion, and I get it. But, you know, from my standpoint, I think that's the kind, you know, kind way. has no His life had no bearing on me, you know. thankfully. um But so like, you know, I kind of look at things as like, I'm, I'm going to, you know, take a look at the whole space, I'm going to take a look at the universe, and there are things that are that commonly come up in the universe. And I'm going to like, make fun of those things. And then, you know, um I think people because a lot of these things are intrinsic to the
00:29:39
Speaker
the experience, you know, when they're consuming true crime, um that they are ah they can recognize sort of the echoes of what the genre provides. And so if I can sort of kind of like if you if you listen to my show, I say this all the time that nostalgia is a big part of my show and nostalgia is about remembering, you know, something. And I think even like that can be 20 years ago and it can be 10 minutes ago. And so if I can take sort of the the memory of a moment and give someone sort of that feeling of this feels familiar and you know push push it through, like that's sort of my and my approach. i don't I mean, there are plenty of things that I could do that are in the true crime space.
00:30:25
Speaker
that are like specific cases that I could really, really, um i could i could I could send up and I don't do it because I don't wanna harm the families and I don't want to to like to to to necessarily make fun of it unless it is a sort of a pop culture reference um to to something specific. So that's sort of, I guess that's my answer to that. yeah and And I imagine you have to sort of know a little bit about the outcome of trial or something like that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not going back to my favorite tough topic, but the my least favorite slash favorite topic, the Delphi murders of yeah Abby Williams and Libby Germain. I could see a day where the defense is Norse, pagan, Odinists,
00:31:18
Speaker
theory upon conviction could be humorous, but not on the quittle. I can't imagine a version because that would become. Right. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the the families are still going through all of that. And, um you know, they've been and Unfortunately, those poor families have been re-traumatized for so long over this case because of all the hijinks that have surrounded it. and
00:31:50
Speaker
you know i mean i yeah that that that that will That one will not end up in my show. I won't i won't send that up at all, obviously, but i yeah know my my thoughts are with them and um you know I hope that there's justice done in that case. No, no, it makes sense. It's just whereas, you know, yeah our friends, ah Brett and Alice on the prosecutor's podcast are doing DB Cooper right now and DB Cooper. Right. There is no one who's been physically harmed. Right. No one. um That is like beautiful fodder for for entertainment and humor. And you even have a character was E.B. Cooper. Right. The.
00:32:36
Speaker
I do. I also have DB Cooper in the show too. Oh, yes. That's right. DB himself. DB Cooper is the father of the Easter Bunny. Yeah. And and also I'll say this, DB Cooper comes back soon. So get ready for his return, his triumph. Season three or is that the no it'll be a bit of it'll be in the next episode so oh and then the guy that plays TV Cooper is a good friend of mine does a phenomenal job and. I'm really excited about that but and he may be in season three two yeah i don't know i haven't written.
00:33:10
Speaker
that far into it to know. But um but yeah, no, yeah that's a perfect example. Like these sort of pop culture moments, um that ah crime moments, you know, that was a non-violent crime. um It's this massive, you know, crazy event that has captured everybody's imaginations for 45 years or wherever it's been. And like that is perfect for what my show is. And then i would that all happened. The whole reason that I, if D.B. Cooper got into Santa Maria criminals, because a friend of mine challenged me to Dr. Shiloh, who you had on your show a while back, challenged me to find a way to work D.B. Cooper into the storyline.
00:34:01
Speaker
And that's sort of the way the show has been made the show is not been like just it has not all just come out of my head a lot of it's come out of like. Community support which is the way we tell stories right we tell stories together we have things on and we we build together and it's it's like a family and. I've had so many things that have been suggested to me when people suggest things to me I. typically add them and in some kind of way. And it's like when they hear them, it makes them feel like, oh my gosh, you listen to me, or oh my gosh, you know, it's like, yeah. It and it up makes them more human, right? Like the more hands that are in it, the more perspectives and lenses on the world. Absolutely. I mean, and I love that. That makes me
00:34:46
Speaker
Like I wouldn't want to just sit here by myself and just write whatever comes out of my head. Like I love the feedback from people and I love people saying, why don't you do this or why don't you do that? Like that stuff is fun to me because it gives me a chance to say, I had not thought about that. I will, I will go down this path or that path or whatever. It's just fun. And it and it also, again, it shows them that I care about what they they think and feel and that they are a part of the show. And so that's, That's how um I view the the the making of this show. It's it's not just me, it's it's everybody. Yeah. so One of the things in some of the conversations around true crime that I've heard is that this idea, this notion, this concept that this is like a new thing. It was recently on another podcast YouTube channel, we're talking about
00:35:42
Speaker
Among other things, how it went far back into history. So I went and i I looked up sort of like where really where, how far back can we find true crime stories? And, you know, it it sounds like we can find them as far back as recorded history went. you know, in ancient Egypt, ah the references to what we would consider crime stories. And they used, they didn't, you know, we cover the trials and we make all that stuff dramatic, but the Egyptians made the swift punishment very dramatic. They were using it for a very specific political purpose to let everybody know that, you know, justice was swift. and um and but but But storytelling around crime
00:36:28
Speaker
has existed as far back as as as we have record. why Why do you think we want to tell stories about crime? I mean, the the the most ah the the strongest instinct is survival. And you know I think that crime stories, I think we hear this a lot, that why are women typically more likely to consume true crime content than men? And you know some people posit that that is because it's sort of a ah warning to them or that they it's sort of an awareness thing for them because women are more likely to be victims of violent crime than men are. And it it is sort of some sort of ah
00:37:16
Speaker
subconscious defense, you know, or awareness, you know, mechanism learning mechanism. um I think that that's sort of the thing I think that like people and I don't know, like, I'm not a psychologist, I don't know any of that. But funny, Jason, you say that that a lot of people say that's why a lot of people go into psychology. I understand the world around you and make your make yourself feel safe. Yeah, right. and i And I think that that's a big part of it. I mean, that the greatest instinct that we have is to survive. And I think any way that we can educate ourselves ah to enhance that ability to survive is probably something that is very attractive to us, you know, and just in terms of our innate learning. And so I think that that could be part of it. I also think that people like people love to be thrilled, you know, that people love to be entertained and
00:38:09
Speaker
And, you know, you know, we talk about true crime and I know people will love rich Greece. There's a human desire to understand and have. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, that's one of the things, you know, you know, with with. With Santa, maybe a criminal like I've sort of built out this little puzzle of where Santa Claus is. It's one of my favorite parts. we I remember was a crime con last year. It was at some point at the at some point you said to me, do you want to know where Santa is? And I was like, absolutely not. Like that would take all the fun out of it for me.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah, and then this week you asked me to tell you. Mm hmm. Now I know it's coming. Now you know. And I'm kind of sad. I'm kind of sad. Yeah, I know. I know. It took all the air out of the room. But it was there all lot the whole time, though. Like if you looked at the pieces, you could have put it together. um But ah that is something that's interesting that people would like. Usually the usually everything is right in front of your face. you just don't know how to fit them together, right? And so um once you can figure that out, you have a sense of like accomplishment. Again, like I think people, and I know we're gonna sort of talk about this, like people wanna be entertained. um And I think, again, I think people wanna be educated. And I think true crime in a lot of ways is education um because it is,
00:39:35
Speaker
showing people how how how things can go awry. And so I think it's all those things. It's ah it's certainly an interesting interesting thing. Yeah, the, um, I think that, uh, yeah, yeah, there is a, I think a human, human motive to, you know, I i think tree crime brings together a lot of different things. Like we have a natural desire. We want to be entertained. We want to be transported out of the space where we exist. Like we have a deep desire. Um,
00:40:09
Speaker
we have a deep desire to be transported. Just like when we go into a restaurant and all of a sudden we feel like we're in Italy or we feel whatever it is, right? And then we wanna know the world around us. And that's sort of like the journalism piece of it, I think. And some of us wanna do good. Um, and, and, and I, and I really mean that like, I don't think all of us do want to do good. I mean, and I don't mean that people want to do bad, but like we all have, there's a set of values, right? And some people care about power. Some people care about recognition, not to say that you don't. Some people care about money. Some people are deeply wedded to tradition.
00:40:52
Speaker
Right. And that and I'm simply saying that for some people, doing good is the value that drives them. And I'm going to come back to this this point in a second. And then many of us want to solve puzzles, but puzzle solving, entertainment and understanding the world around us, I think are our natural sort of like meta human desires, regardless of what your values are. But helping people, I think is slightly different. because I think helping people competes with many other values. And I think a lot of us who get into the space do want to help people.
00:41:31
Speaker
But I don't think that necessarily that is always the biggest draw for people to the space, which creates sort of like, I think, a complication for a lot of people because you have a number of creators who have a deep desire to help people and that it may be secondary for a good chunk of the audience, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah I mean, I think there are four dirty words in podcasting. i think I think it's ethics, advocacy, journalism, and the dirtiest of all is
Purpose of True Crime Content: Entertainment vs. Responsibility
00:42:04
Speaker
entertainment. Right. Yes. And ah like those things um ah have various definitions you know based on the different person you talk to.
00:42:16
Speaker
And ah none of those things are bad in and of themselves if they're if they're handled the right way. um But I agree with you. I think that like you know as a creator, you have to balance things with what is going to, and I'm talking about me and what guides me, what is going to help tell the story and not do harm and what is going to entertain people so they listen. Because if people listen to my show,
00:42:53
Speaker
then the next person that I'm telling, I might get more audience and and more and more and more. And then like the the the value of me trying to do good for somebody and not do harm will hopefully magnify from that space. But I do think that like entertainment is looked at as taboo and true crime. And I think that's that's just not media. yeah You i want to say something? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Well, because one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, that idea like what you seem to be saying is like your purpose through all of this is to help people.
00:43:32
Speaker
And that if people are entertained by it, that brings on board a group of people who secondarily will do it. If the people who want to solve mysteries are brought on board, that brings on another group of people who who who can have some kind of positive impact. But um somebody made a point in the chat whoever it is, your words are too small for me to tell who's saying what. I'll have to zoom in. But um that, you know, one of the dangers is trying to
00:44:07
Speaker
when you're trying to solve puzzles by playing around with people's lives. And I think that applies to the mystery part. And certainly as a journalist, that applies to our work. right Trying to tell the truth is a very noble and important thing. But if you're trying to tell truth and not taking you know, into consideration the impact of that truth, like what are the necessary parts of the truth for the audience and what are the parts of the truth that are factually correct, but not necessarily necessary that can potentially cause harm. And I think the same thing for for for for entertainment. And I think that there's an you know, that that true crime ethics argument has been it should all be advocacy.
00:44:55
Speaker
But I think really it should all be responsible creation within each of those pieces, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, either the responsibility lies on the creator. I think, um you know, the the the tenor of or the the The audience now has been trained to become triggered about many, many things. And you know that is something that creators and the media has helped foster. um But you know I think, again, if you if you operate from a place of kindness to to victims and their families, as if that's your guiding principle to start with, and you hang to that,
00:45:45
Speaker
It's hard to to be. I mean, it's I won't say it's hard to be attacked because we've seen that you can be attacked even if you do that. But at least at the end of the day, if you're doing that, you know that, you know, you're honoring the victim honoring the victims memories and you're honoring the family's wishes. So that brings me to back to your your new podcast. Before I ask about what you're trying to do with it, What is it doing for you? Like, why are you doing it? Well, you know, I, I think I wanted to. Is there something, something you need to prove to yourself? I think, you know, I talk a lot about having empathy and about presenting with kindness and, um,
00:46:39
Speaker
I do have a lot of very strong opinions about making sure that victims and their families have a voice and I'm particularly ah inspired by families like Morgan Nick's family, Colleen Nick, who started the Morgan Nick Foundation, which helps families who have experienced the the loss of you know, a child or another person, Bruce Maitland, you know, who who started a private investigation for the missing. um Like I'm particularly interested because I think that the strength it takes after you have such an unbelievable loss, like you were saying earlier that, you know, if if you asked any one of them if they thought they could go on, they would have said no.
00:47:35
Speaker
And then what did they do? They went on and on not only did they go on, but they did something that helped hundreds or thousands of other people. That kind of stuff to me is the, it may be the most inspiring thing I've ever seen in my life. That you could experience a loss and you could you could go on and do things for other people when you could very well decide, I can't do this anymore. So I'm going to sit in my grief. So just to take an example for me. So if you look at the last, I don't know, year and a half of my podcast, you know, my mom dies in October and then, you know, you don't have to be a psychologist to realize that
00:48:27
Speaker
all of a sudden I have maybe five or six episodes about loss. And I think for me, when I think about it quite honestly, that in so many levels I was inspired by them, but also they proved to me that I could go on. right And there to me, there's something really powerful that can come from like a host I think, vulnerably accepting their own fears and their pain and then creating something out of that, right? Creating something out of that, that in the same way me as the host, because I could have had every one of those conversations on my own, never published anything and gotten amazing things from them, and then creating something in the world for other people.
00:49:20
Speaker
And so just kind of thinking about like these kinds of things, I think that we do as creators, certainly with our personalities, like it comes from a deep place inside. Again, I don't think it's a coincidence for me that that's that that's where my focus on loss. And even you even more globally than that until my mom died, very out of touch myself for years before that with sort of like pain and suffering, saw too many much of it as a reporting. And I think it's almost like exposure to it for me, but yet this good thing is coming out of it for you. So I guess I'm kind of getting it. Like what is the deep place? Like people don't just pick missing.
00:50:08
Speaker
people out of nowhere. Yeah, I mean, I think it to me, it's sort of just the, it's the puzzle, like we were talking about earlier, it's like, people like puzzles. And um it's also, you know, the amount of time that these people go missing in, you know, they're yeah relatively very fast, you know, you know with With Morgan, Nick, it was a handful of minutes. With Jeanette Tate, who is the second going to be the second episode, it was like seven minutes or something like that. The idea that the world changes like that. yeah Exactly. exactly you know We're doing Aisha Degree,
00:50:48
Speaker
um which you know which, again, and she she went missing. Which case is that? ageianary Yeah, so she was, I think she's in Kentucky. I'm not doing the research. I have Jessica doing the research. But anyhow, she went missing in the middle of the night. like ah trying toy Yeah, walking on the side of the road, her backpack was found. um it's It's an interesting thing. The other thing too about the the show is that I'm taking individual themes of the case to frame the storytelling. So, this is a storytelling podcast um with Morgan Nick. She had gone to chase fireflies, and so the theme is fireflies. um For um Jeanette Tate, it's it's puzzles, which makes less sense in the conversation as it is now, um because
00:51:42
Speaker
true crime case or about puzzles. But yeah, I mean, I think that it's, and um for me, that the the point is I enjoy telling stories about things we don't know the answers to. And that doesn't mean that some of the cases that we will cover will not be solved. Sometimes we just don't know because we don't know the motives.
00:52:19
Speaker
But I also want to tell a story with an immense amount of care and empathy. and and ah And what I think is in a different way than are the way that stories are currently presented in the true crime space. yeah but and And so i mean to that, it it I don't know, it just makes me think that like sort of part of what motivates me, and this may be something you want to explore for years, is being able to tell the stories of the people who go on is super powerful for me yes as well, and and and just imagining
00:53:03
Speaker
that element. So Chris and our buddy Chris made the comment two years ago, Monday, I lost my mom, I've loved all your thoughtful musings on grief. They truly are musings, Chris, because I certainly haven't figured it out. And it's a rotten club to be in, but a comfort to share with like minded people. And to your point, Jason, going back to vulnerability, being willing to be vulnerable about things, I thought I would probably talk about my mom once. Yeah. Thanks, Kristin. And, you know, Kristin, I think it's a process of finding peace in my grief, and I'm so unbelievably grateful for
00:53:43
Speaker
my listeners and my guests to be able to have these kinds of vulnerable conversations ah with them, because I think, again, it goes back to what we were talking about, hearing about other people's suffering and going on and hearing about, um I think, I will just say, and I've said this 500 times, and I was, what was I, I was, um I was in New York yesterday, today, I don't know, today and yesterday. I was in New York yesterday and I was talking to the girlfriend of one of my closest friends and we hadn't met, we hadn't seen each other in person since my mom died and I like broke out crying and she's like, oh, sorry. I'm like, no, I'm having a blast. Cause this is my favorite thing to do.
00:54:33
Speaker
um And I remember her mom got early onset Alzheimer's in her 40s. Her mom's still alive many years later and she's suffering and it opened up this awesome conversation about what her morning process was like and you know the fact that her morning had actually begun long before. And I guess I'm saying all of this to make the point that having these conversations that are open and vulnerable on our shows, whether it's about missing people or it's like the other things in satire that entertain people
00:55:14
Speaker
we probably have no idea the healing effect, just like Kristin's comment, the healing effect that that some of it has for people. And then there's the opposite side of it, right? Like if you're being irresponsible, you may not even realize the damage. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's I think it's important for us to, and by the way, like I think possibly unpopular, like being A victim's family member doesn't mean that you can't have damage. It's not like a blank check. Agreed. 100% agreed. you know That doesn't mean that you can victimize other people. yeahp It means that that you you have been a victim and you are a trauma-based person. Yeah, in a way, there's a you you have to be even more on guard.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. Because you now have something that people can hold against you as as you oh you think you get a pass because you're this person. And so yeah, you have to be really careful about that. and And again, I think it goes back to like, can we just treat people with the utmost respect and humanity that they deserve? Every single person deserves it. um you know the the What do you think our listeners deserve? Our listeners? Yeah, what do they deserve from us? I think they deserve honesty.
00:56:43
Speaker
I think they deserve compassion. I think, you know, from Santa Barbara Criminal, I think they deserve laughs. I think they deserve um feeling included, everyone. But I also think that they deserve us to hold ourselves accountable when we make mistakes. I think they deserve us to be vulnerable. just like you know ah You have been incredibly vulnerable. I've i've tried to be vulnerable.
00:57:14
Speaker
um you you do a much better job of it than I do. But I think that they deserve that because I think that what they deserve is to see us as real people and to know that guess what? you know we can We're going to make mistakes. The difference is like we're going to make mistakes on a microphone. And you're not. Unless you get a podcast. and Except for our advantage, we have editing software, they don't. That is true. That is true. That is true. I edit out a lot of mistakes all the time. um But yeah, I mean, I think that they deserve to know that like, we're real, we're real people. And we know that we sometimes we come at things from the wrong angle. And to give us the grace that, you know,
00:58:06
Speaker
I can say something today and something can be brought to my brought my attention tonight and tomorrow I will have learned from that thing. And I hope that they give me the grace, that that the growth span in the 24 hours that I could have could have achieved if if something changed. Like I think that is something that's missing right now is that we we do not give people grace. And forgive yourself. give yourself the grace to like adamantly argue something and then realize you are unbelievably wrong. and fla Absolutely. Absolutely. we I think we are much more likely to give others grace than we are ourselves. and that's And that's a massive mistake because you're not going to bed with those other people at night. You're going to bed with yourself. You're going to you're looking at yourself in the mirror.
00:58:53
Speaker
And you are- Hopefully you're not going to bed with all of them. Right, right. When I said that, I was like, oh gosh, here comes a joke. um but But yeah, like, you know, you you have to give yourself the the, you have to look at yourself in the mirror every every night before you go to bed. and What's that? That thing is you, when you get buried, yeah there's only enough room for one body. One person in the coffin. That's right. Yeah. So I mean, I think that's a really important thing. And just so long as people, so people know that is who I am, that I'm willing to be made wrong.
00:59:35
Speaker
or to be shown that I was wrong about things. I'm happy to learn. um My ego is not too big. but i don't think I certainly don't think I know everything. I know I don't know everything, ah but I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to be a better person. I'm trying to ah live in a way that will um that will give me comfort when I look at myself in the mirror before I go to bed every night, that I can look at my kids and say, you know, ah you're i i'm I'm not sad with the guy your dad is. That's all I care about. Yeah. I agree. That's what matters, right? Yeah. And I hope our listeners can give themselves grace too.
01:00:20
Speaker
I do too. Because some because this is it is an ah it can it's ugly. it's an ugly There's a lot of ugly conversations going on right now. And people are getting wrapped up in them. And I've done the same thing. I'm not throwing shade on anybody else. I've gotten as in the thick of it as anybody. And, you know, we can we can just remember that whatever we're arguing for is probably nothing compared to what the family is hoping for or what, you know, the other sides have been for in terms of upholding the system. And so long as we understand there are two sides to it, that's good. We can both have our individual opinions, but we don't need to attack each other over them. There's no reason for people to be threatening other people or to be, you know, making other people feel bad or whatever.
01:01:20
Speaker
We have a responsibility to be adults and to to so emulate the right behaviors for people that we want to act in that way. right No, it makes sense. It makes sense. So I'm going to ask you the hard question now as the, as the mayor and the person who brings us all together, except for me, I'm like a sniper hanging out. Objection. Oh, that's but you guys just not fair. No, no. Um, how do you bring us all together so we can talk?
01:01:59
Speaker
Well,
01:02:03
Speaker
I think one, that's a really hard question because I have thoughts and I don't know if any of them make any sense. For me, I have been on a few occasions, I've been sort of a neutral party between two different sets of ideas.
01:02:34
Speaker
And I am able to take my personal opinion out of it, see both sides, explain to both sides that I want there to come, I want there to be a reconciliation.
01:02:56
Speaker
I want things to remain not personal. And
01:03:04
Speaker
that's how I try to broker some piece based on my individual relationships with people. But I'm not, I can't, I can't do that. That doesn't work on a mass scale, right? Yeah. I can't do that for everybody. I can only talk about it in a very micro sense. Maybe, maybe, maybe it's not about being perfect. Maybe it's about just doing your small part. Maybe that's right. Yeah. And maybe it's about going back to what we were saying a minute ago, like maybe it's about both sides actually putting their egos aside and saying, okay, let me take a step back. Maybe I was wrong about this. Can we have an actual conversation with the other side and get to a place that is, that is simple. Well, going back to your point about vulnerability, right? And our point about suffering, right? Like,
01:03:54
Speaker
There are very few things that are universal, right? Suffering is one of them. yeah um I think if we could, and there's that long fellow quote that I love, that's like, if you could see, and I'm gonna butcher it right now, if you could see into every man's heart, you would find such um sadness and sorrow to forgive all hostility. I wonder whether like part of the answer to bridging our divides is to share our suffering. like one One place that I can think of is when I post about my mom being dead, I have a bunch of friends in my school I wouldn't do for all the money in the world.
01:04:39
Speaker
The point that I was making was about um suffering and it being universal. And I remember when I posted that my mom and dad, a bunch of friends from high school who I long stopped talking to, right? Because they were their politics were just so far. to I and don't even want to call it the right. They were on some cliff compared to mine. um And you know they responded with love. They responded with compassion. They responded with their own stories of loss. And you know it's interesting because it's probably rekindled a couple of relationships I would have never thought would have rekindled. um And I'm wondering whether maybe that's the connection. like Seeing somebody, a lot of bad behavior comes out of people's kind of solving something for myself here.
01:05:30
Speaker
hurt, right? Like even some of that egotistical behavior that you see, or some of the attacks that people make, it comes out of their own hurt, right? um and And maybe that's the thing that can unite us, like an acceptance of an appreciation for each other's suffering, but that would require people being vulnerable. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
01:06:00
Speaker
I think the world as it as it is has hardened us in quite a number of ways, I think. You know, as someone who has worked in the media for 20 plus years, I know you did as well, you've been able to see, I think, the way that the mass media has impacted public conversation. And I think when you were in it 20 years ago, it was it was less driven by what I think were reaction to the marketplace. When we when we when we put a premium on the value of an advertiser's dollar over the value
01:06:59
Speaker
of the impact in a human being's life, bad things happen. Like where we we prioritizing right yeah we're prioritizing the wrong thing. And that's not a popular thing to say in my space, but it's the right thing to say. And sometimes having courage is saying the thing that's not popular, but saying the thing that you believe is right with your own convictions. And I think that is another thing about vulnerability. Like sometimes being vulnerable is saying, I'm willing to take hatred for saying something that's not popular because I know it's the right thing too. And there aren't enough people willing to do that right now, I don't think.
01:07:53
Speaker
I think I hope I am. I think you are. I have no doubt you are. um I hope I am. But I think the more important thing is that people understand that, you know, I think we just do it in different ways. so that That could be true. But I think the most important thing is like, it's not about us. It's about, it's about ah If we go back to Delphi, it's about Justice Rabi and Libby getting their families you know the the the sense of whatever closure they can have, honoring the little girl's memories. And it's about honoring and
01:08:39
Speaker
holding the system to the standard that it needs to be held to and making sure it works and that we restore the faith in the system because right now it's a very shaky ground. And I have my own opinions about why that is, but like those things are the most important things in that specific case. And that's going to be the most important thing in all the cases as we look move forward because since the- Why do you think it's on shaky ground? I think, I think there have been irresponsible decisions made by everybody.
01:09:18
Speaker
politics hearing you not ah now or No, I know. I think that, you know, I'll say this, I think there, there've been some, well, I think, you know, frankly, I think the defense has made some bad calls. I think just goal has made some, made some missteps. And so I can see where both sides would have, cause for alarm and for upset. um But, you know, again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a jurist. I'm a media person and I try to follow the case as little as possible. But what I do see is I see the outrage in the public.
01:10:00
Speaker
And, you know, it's, that's what's troubling to me. And I know that I know enough to know we need to come back to a place where we can all talk together in a civil manner. the I hear it. All right. Give you a chance for any closing thoughts. so If you want to tell us about anything that's headed in the future or any of your hopes for, I mean, it's obvious, Jason, that you care about people in the space, you care about listeners, you care about it being a place where you can sort of help people and heal people. And, you know, one of the things you and I are a part of a group of podcasters who got together to support each other and
01:10:46
Speaker
You know, at first I thought, oh, this would be like technical assistance. We'll help each other. But then I realized, oh, my gosh, this is therapy. Like many of us are on the edge. They are ready to quit. I mean, I think people would be surprised at how many in which people are ready to like their two seconds from um jumping out or doing what they're doing. What do you what do you hope for the listeners, hope for the creators, hope for
01:11:14
Speaker
Well, I hope from for the listeners ah for this, I hope I wasn't too rambling, crazy. um As usual, we didn't stick to the outline. And I'm grateful for that because I love having just conversations with you. this is how If they want to ah look into our conversations, this is how they go. it's just this this great back and forth. um So I hope for for the listeners of this, I hope that they have found some nugget of something meaningful and they have reexamined the way that they have perhaps ah interacted with others and and things that they disagree with and and maybe next time think maybe they could operate with more grace or
01:12:05
Speaker
that they could also demand more grace from the other party, depending on which way that goes. So I have that for that, for this specific thing.
Honoring Missing Persons in 'Missing in a Moment'
01:12:14
Speaker
For listeners of Santa May Be A Criminal, I hope that they realize that um the humor and the satire in the show is always with, like, in my mind, the whole time I'm writing that is a hopeful, It is with a hopeful end in mind. It is never malicious or vindictive. It is always coming from a place of real respect for creators.
01:12:50
Speaker
ah a real laugh about the tropes that we see, um but also a love for ah love for people and a love for storytelling and a love for the South and a love for Christmas. um For future listeners of Missing in a Moment, um I hate hope they understand it. What I want to do is, ah like I said, and I'm going to say in the show, um just because someone's missing in a moment doesn't mean their memory is lost forever. I think that's really important. I think that the people that that have been left behind by loved ones lost or abducted or murdered
01:13:37
Speaker
those who have the strength to go on and do something special to help others, like it's a super superpower to me. And I have so much respect and so much honor for those people, and I want them to have their organizations uplifted and supported. and um So like I hope that that that that show really honors the stories of the missing and really uplifts those who are continuing on and there ah in their memory. and um And yeah, I hope people will listen to the show.
01:14:18
Speaker
If you'd like to join me for more discussions with other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener-run Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with listeners, you can join us on our Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Linings Handbook. I'm Jason Blair, and this is the Silver Linings Handbook Podcast. We'll see you all again next week.