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#34: Dr. Scott Geller at NSC 2019
74 Plays6 years ago
Vivid Learning Systems Chief Safety Officer and podcast host sits down with Dr. Scott Geller live on the expo floor from the 2019 NSC Expo.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:10
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro, live at the 2019 National Safety Congress and Expo in lovely San Diego. My name is Jill James, VIV is Chief Safety Officer, and today I'm joined by Dr. Scott Geller, who is a Distinguished Professor of Psychology at Virginia Tech, who just started his 50th year. Welcome to the program. Thank you Jill, it's great to be here.
00:00:34
Speaker
So you and I were supposed to have a third person with us
Charlie's Safety Story and Scott's Approach
00:00:38
Speaker
today. Charlie Morcraft was going to join us for the second time on the podcast and Charlie is a bit under the weather so sending out our positive energy to Charlie today. Yes we are and perhaps some of the listeners will know that Charlie and I gave
00:00:54
Speaker
keynote address at this conference for 10 consecutive years. Charlie would go first and he would get people, he would tell his story. Many people know Charlie's story and he tells what happened to him. And by the way, the safety professionals in the room, they're sitting on the edge of their seats as they hear Charlie explain how one little
00:01:15
Speaker
incident resulted in a serious consequences for him and so he spends an hour telling his story getting people all emotional and then he says he says by the way folks that's why that's why we're here that's why we're here to prevent
00:01:32
Speaker
others from doing what I did. And now I want to introduce you to Scott Geller, who's the psychologist to tell us how, that now that we know why we're here, what are we going to do about it? And I spent an hour talking about how, and I start up my conversation by saying, how do you feel? Yeah.
00:01:52
Speaker
How do you feel? And I can see it in their faces. I mean, they're curioid. And he said, don't forget that. Because that's why you're here. And sometimes we don't hear that enough. Because safety is all about proactive. Prevent it before it happens. And we don't get enough recognition for the proactive things we do. It's when the incident, the injury happens. Then, oh, we get all kinds of attention. And that's what Charlie reminds us. He'd tell us what it's like.
00:02:22
Speaker
what it happens, but being proactive, we get to prevent things happening like what happened to Charlie. So we get them. And then I say, you know, emotion is a motivation. When you're emotional, you're motivated. Now let's talk about what we do about that motivation.
Scott's Transition to Behavioral Science
00:02:39
Speaker
What a gift to an audience to be able to hear both of you and for you to be able to help an audience process what they've just been through because it is an experience to listen to him and then to follow up with the science part of it. So when it comes to this podcast, The Accidental Safety Pro, everyone
00:02:57
Speaker
tells their story about how it is that safety found them or they found safety. So I'm interested if you could share your story about how did you become the scientist that you are to be able to partner with Charlie all those years? Oh, that's a fun question. Well, I'm a psychologist. I started in cognitive psychology and for several years studying cognitive psychology and then I realized
00:03:22
Speaker
I'm not making a difference. I'm publishing in academic journals and people in the academic field. But what about the public? What about the real people? So then I started thinking about behavioral psychology, the application of behavioral science to improve human welfare.
00:03:40
Speaker
And I started with safety belt motivation. We're talking about the 80s. We're talking about the mid-70s. And people were not buckling up. Only about 20% or less of the population wore safety belts. The safety director of Ford Motor Company at the time was Dale Gray. And he called me up about 1979, and he said, Scott, you've got to help us to get our people to wear safety belts. Because if we don't wear safety belts, we're going to have to put airbags in cars.
00:04:08
Speaker
And airbags are going to cause injuries. And airbag is not as protective as a safety belt. That's how we started. Wow. And that was the beginning of behavior-based safety. How did he find you?
00:04:22
Speaker
Well in those days I was doing safety belt research and I had some grant money and I was trying to convince the government, the Department of Transportation, National Traffic Safety Administration, that we can use positive consequences. So they're all in to pass a law and enforce it. Negative consequences. But we were trying to show them that
00:04:42
Speaker
people feel better working for positive consequences than working to avoid a negative consequence. We got some media attention and he found my name and he gave me a call. He said, Scott, would I travel around to 313 different facilities and talk about
00:05:02
Speaker
behavioral approach and we had we had their workers out in the parking lot measuring safety belt news of their workers as they left the parking lot sure and it was you know 10% sure and then we set up programs tomorrow to motivate positive if you're buckled up you'll get a bingo card sure we're gonna play bingo but just small tokens of appreciation increased it to beyond 60%
Impact of Scott's Work and Early Experiences
00:05:26
Speaker
I feel like I've experienced the reverberating effects of your work in the 70s. When I got my first internship as an undergrad, I did a safety internship. I have a community health education as my undergrad degree. But I picked safety because I thought no one else would want to do it. And so I worked for the Department of Transportation. And the first campaign they had me work on was on seatbelt use. And this was in the early 90s.
00:05:53
Speaker
And at that time, there was this video that was circulating around. I bet you aren't remembered. It's called Room to Live. Oh, sure. Yeah. And so I remember talking about that at the time. So was that your foray into workplace safety and community safety? Then I started to come to safety conferences. And I'd sit and listen to these presenters. And I was so disturbed, I must admit. I was so disturbed because it's think safety. And it's all about,
00:06:22
Speaker
Working to avoid failure rather than success seeking so I started to think wow People have to learn the psychology of safety the human dynamics of safety the psychology of experience Yeah, and so I started I went and I started to give keynotes starting at ASSE back in the late 80s and I
00:06:43
Speaker
I've been a regular here at NSC, and my first significant book in this field was called The Psychology of Safety, published in 1996. The lineup for people to get this, because it was a new thing. Never thought about the psychology of safety. And of course, as you indicated, I've been doing this for 50 years, and it's very reinforcing, because people need to know the human dynamics of injury prevention.
Proactive Safety and Cultural Change
00:07:12
Speaker
So when you were starting with that and you were starting to talk about that aspect of safety that no one has ever spoken about before, what sort of tangible things were you asking people to try? You're a scientist, so I'm guessing you were giving people ideas about try to do this, this, and this.
00:07:28
Speaker
get behavioral for one thing. Talk about behavior. For example, have a session and ask people, what have you done for safety? We call it the safety share. Last week, what have you done for safety? Someone raised their hand. I didn't get hurt. That doesn't count. What have you done? But that's how we keep score. Notice organizations, who gets the base safety award? The one who had the fewest injuries. And then in those days, we gave prizes to workers who didn't have an injury.
00:07:57
Speaker
In fact, they ran lotteries. Talk about an accident. An accident is something you can't control. I don't like the word accident. I don't like the word accident either. Yeah, so we call it an incident. We call it an injury. But the point is, in those days, some companies still do this. You get a prize if you don't have an injury. Guess what that does? Yeah, under reporting. Under reporting. That's why OSHA doesn't like that whole idea. Exactly. And going further with this, what I saw is these people in safety are talking about
00:08:28
Speaker
It's an accident investigation to find the root cause. You kidding me? See, as a psychologist, I know, you don't find root cause. Or as a scientist, you don't find root cause from an interview with the talking to people. You have to manipulate an independent variable, look at its effect on a dependent variable, and then
00:08:49
Speaker
make sure that other factors aren't you can't so cause and effect is not what it's about and the word investigation what's that sound like it punitive yes punitive and that's how safety was and it's getting much better now people don't
00:09:05
Speaker
I wish they would use the word injury analysis. And I wish you that they just, it's not an accident and it's not an investigation. And we're not looking to find the root cause. I ask audiences, how many wise do you ask to find the root cause? And they all raise their hand.
00:09:24
Speaker
Where'd that come from? It's too much common sense, too much bad science. That's BS, right? Bad science. So as a scientist, I don't want to teach somebody something, unless I know it's true. So we call it contributing factors.
00:09:43
Speaker
Right, because everything is multifactorial. Anything in life is multifactorial. And how do you find those things? People have to talk about it. But we stifle that conversation if we reward, if you don't have an injury, if we call it an investigation, if we say, we're going to find the root cause. Guess what?
00:10:03
Speaker
The root cause. They're going to look at me because I was the one who was injured, so I must be the root cause. I mean, that's the interpretation people make and it comes from language.
Empathy in Safety Practices
00:10:11
Speaker
Right. Our biggest job is to make people feel safe to be able to speak and to be able to share and to speak their truth about whatever it was or multiple things that occurred.
00:10:22
Speaker
Guess what, Jill? Who knows? Who knows where the risks are? Who knows who's taking risky behavior? And by the way, it's not necessarily, they just weren't thinking. Who knows who's not paying attention? The workers do. The safety supervisor, they don't know, but in the past, they used to be the ones who would give them training meetings and would give the discussions and try to top down. And what's top down, it's got to be bottom up.
00:10:50
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. It's the most powerful questions to ask it from like show me your job. Tell me explain your job to me Yeah, something that I did a lot what I was with OSHA for a number of years as an investigator and you're supposed to do these interviews
00:11:07
Speaker
I'm an investigator, right? And so, you know, I thought, gosh, how am I going to find out about what really is happening here? What am I, how am I going to find out about what's really happening here? I have to ask the people about their work and how do you do this work and make them feel comfortable. And what sticks in my mind is a particular investigation I was doing. There was a complaint that alleged employees were having to stand. It was a,
00:11:33
Speaker
is a giant place that ground up tires, like giant tires, like tractor tires, and they would shred them and turn them into beds that cows would lay on. And so this hopper that's as huge as where we are right now, that these tires would go into. And the allegation was that it didn't get locked out.
00:11:52
Speaker
ever when it got jammed. Oh yeah. And so I was going around this place trying to make people feel safe to talk with me so I could find out what was happening and I couldn't come up with anything. And so I'm leaving this investigation with like nothing and I'm feeling like there must be something happening here. And I'm driving my state vehicle away slowly from this place and out of the bushes, literally out of the bushes of this company this man comes up to the window of my car and knocks on the window
00:12:21
Speaker
and says, can we talk to you? Because bad things are happening here. And I said, absolutely. They said, could you meet us at the Burger King tonight after work? And all these employees showed up to tell me what was happening. Unbelievable. But you have to make them feel safe to be able to do that, right? But that's the issue, Jill. That's exactly our problem. We have a culture where
00:12:46
Speaker
It's driven underground. And it's all about how the leaders talk. And it's all about how you keep score. Who gets the safety award? The one with the fewest injuries. Safety leader of the month. Who's that had the fewest injuries? It's how we talk. Here's a word we have to talk about. Empathy. Yes.
00:13:05
Speaker
Empathy. Empathy means, I need to find out, like you said, where's the other person coming from? When you have an injury, and you talk to the injured person, or it's just a near hit, or they call it near miss. Bad word, two airplanes are flying ahead of near miss, means they hit. We call it a good catch. But report those things. But when you talk about it, you have to try to find out
00:13:34
Speaker
from the other person why it happened.
00:13:37
Speaker
That takes empathy. You know, it's not the golden rule. You know what the golden rule is, right? To do unto others. As you would have them do unto you. It's the platinum rule. It's to treat others as they want to be treated. That takes empathy. If you think about it, treating others like you want to be treated, no, it's how they want to be treated. And a leader, a leader, practices empathy. A safety leader practices empathy.
00:14:05
Speaker
So how do you teach that when you're doing your work for people who aren't maybe just kind of wired that way already? Yeah, how do you do that? And is that part of what you do with your with your work now called active caring?
00:14:20
Speaker
actively caring for people. Yeah, is that teaching empathy? Well, absolutely. In fact, the technical word, interesting, let me backtrack. I was a behaviorist, remember? Applied behavioral science. And behavior-based safety was based on applied behavioral science. Then I saw some of the consultants misinterpreting it, thinking it's only behavior.
00:14:43
Speaker
And in fact, the engineers counting up at-risk behavior and safe behavior and getting a formula percent safe and then comparing different departments. I mean, that's better than nothing. But it's missing the human part. It's missing empathy. It's missing, here's a word from psychology, humanism. It's missing humanism. So I wrote several books called People-Based Safety. And some companies now are using that term.
00:15:12
Speaker
Then recently we move to actively caring. Now, think about actively caring. Active behavior. Caring humanism. So the technical word is humanistic behaviorism.
00:15:27
Speaker
OK, break that down. Humanistic behaviorism. There were certain principles in humanistic psychology that behaviorists need to practice. In fact, I'm doing keynote speeches now at psychology conferences. And that's my topic is humanistic behaviorism. I'll give you an example. We just said one, empathy. The humanist is empathic. For example, you see behavior.
00:15:53
Speaker
And you define it as, that's at risk behavior. Or you see two people fighting in a parking lot. And you say, that's aggression.
00:16:02
Speaker
How do you know? What are their intentions? The humanist wants to know, they could just be horseplay. And in fact, some of your listeners might have been in situations where you horseplay, just fooling around, and then somebody gets hurt and it turns into aggression. But the behavior looks the same. What changed? Intention. So intention is what the humanist brings to the game, as well as empathy.
00:16:28
Speaker
Find out what were your intentions. I don't think you meant to get hurt. So why did you take that risk? And that's how you find the contributing factors, by the way. Well, there are behavioral factors. I saw other people doing it. It's a norm around here. You call it a descriptive norm. It's the way we do things. It was only going to take 10 seconds.
00:16:51
Speaker
There you go. And matter of fact, the boss gave me the impression that he wanted the job done right now. He empowered me. You know what empowerment means to some people? Get her done. You know, with fewer resources. Dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. But now the humanist talks about empathy and empowerment in a different way.
Training and Motivation in Safety
00:17:10
Speaker
Empowerment means one
00:17:13
Speaker
I know how to do it. We call it self-efficacy. I believe. Notice, believe. Behaviorists tell them, this is what they see. Humanists, what do you believe you can do? Second, do you believe it will work? So if I teach you a safety process, you might be able to do it through training.
00:17:32
Speaker
But now I need to educate you, showing you data that this response, this process will work. That's education. Is there a difference between training and education? Yes. I ask my audiences, would you rather have your kids get sex training or sex education?
00:17:52
Speaker
I have a 17-year-old, definitely education, yes. Training is behavior and feedback, but education is important too. We need to know the rationale behind the process.
00:18:09
Speaker
Okay, so we got self-efficacy, we have response efficacy, and then we have outcome expectancy. This is the motivation. That is, is it worth it? So I can do it, and I think it will work. All these extra things, is it worth doing consequences? What will the consequences be? Can you convince me that it's worth putting my cell phone in the back seat while I drive?
00:18:35
Speaker
So that third thing, is that where we get into, okay, so the trench has been dug. It's not dug very well. It's not sloped appropriately. The job is going to take me a minute tops to do that. I can see this isn't right. I know I'm pushed for a deadline.
00:18:53
Speaker
Where does, how do you apply that? That's that behavior that you want them to make the right decision for themselves at that time. So how are you training on that piece? The empowerment, yeah. The motivation, yes. Talk about with empowerment, they know how to dig the ditch safely. Now let's assume they did that. And they believe that digging the ditch safely is gonna prevent injuries. But they're in a hurry.
00:19:20
Speaker
They want to get to the break room or the boss said Let's go guys. Yeah, it's all about production. Yeah, you know the traffic is waiting. So they take a shortcut Yeah, and so that's the motivation part is the consequence part. Yeah, what am I doing this for? Let's talk about texting big issue is texting. Let's face it. We know how to put our
00:19:44
Speaker
cell phone in the back seat. We know how to drive without the cell phone. We know not to be tempted to pick it up. And we also believe that it would work. That if people stopped texting while driving, we'd have fewer crashes. Not accidents, by the way. Crashes on the highway.
00:20:04
Speaker
But why don't we do it? Because it won't happen to me. And besides, I'm in a hurry. And I've got windshield time. This is my opportunity sitting at the stoplight to check up on my email. So that's the critical one. So we have training, education.
00:20:22
Speaker
and motivation. If you say yes to those three, I can do it, it will work and it is worth it. You feel, you feel empowered. Now that's back to humanism. Behaviorists don't talk about feeling. Humanists do, but we put the two together. By the way, humanism alone is not enough. We have to get behavioral and we have to use consequences to motivate the behavior. So we're calling it humanistic behaviorism or actively caring.
00:20:52
Speaker
And so how do you get people, while you've been talking about this, I've been thinking about a scenario that happened to me yesterday. So I'm on the plane flying to beautiful San Diego here, and the man sitting next to me, this 6'6", has a very brave
00:21:10
Speaker
job I won't name it to disclose who he is kind of job and he suffers terribly from anxiety and he was really hard for him to be on the plane and he shared that with me.
00:21:24
Speaker
And in response, I was empathetic. And we talked about it. And he said, it was so hard for me to get on this plane today. And I've taken my medication. And I said, OK, so let's talk about what that's like for you. Let's talk about some breathing techniques. Let's talk about, would it help if I talked with you during this takeoff and during the landing? And how are you feeling? And the fact that he disclosed that to me
00:21:52
Speaker
was fabulous. I was so proud of him. I said, thank you so much for sharing that with me so that he could be brave to get through that flight. But I'm proud of you. You must have shown him empathy. You must have shown him the ability to listen with empathy, or he wouldn't have. I mean, that's what humanists do. Humanists ask more questions. You probably asked him more questions than told. You weren't telling him. You were asking him, right? I think that a smile
00:22:21
Speaker
is opens lots of doors so i'm wondering do you like how when you're trying to train people who have been as charlie would say tough guys forever how do you teach them to be open to be empathetic but also to receive and to ask and to say hey you know my life is on the line here this is a hard stop for me
00:22:39
Speaker
Well, it's easier said than done. Let's get back to this guy on the plane. He could get some systematic desensitization. He could get therapy to reduce the anxiety. That's a psychological issue that he has to deal with. But let's talk about a related issue to anxiety. Let's talk about stress. I want your listening audience to understand stress is good.
00:23:02
Speaker
Eustress and distress, right? That's it. Thank you, Jill. You know that most people don't get that. That came from my community health education degree. The difference, the difference is the perception of control, right? Yeah. If I got my butterflies in my stomach, they're all lined up. Eustress, yeah. Yeah, there you go.
00:23:22
Speaker
We need to teach the world that stress. I feel so stressed. Good. You know, you know, Han Salle, the guy, the Australian, Austrian, who did all the work on stress, he said, when you're not stressed, you're dead.
00:23:36
Speaker
Stress means we're here, we're getting things done. But distress is bad, and the challenge is to get in control. That's what safety professionals do, is help people believe that they do these things, and you might feel like stress, but everything's, the ducks are all lined up, and the butterflies are all, we know what we're doing, that's okay.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, before I do public speaking, if I have those butterflies, I'm like happy because I know that's my eustress coming out and I know that things are gonna be okay. It's when I don't have it, I'm like, uh-oh, uh-oh, I'm not feeling anything here.
Actively Caring for People Initiative
00:24:15
Speaker
You know how unusual it is for me to talk to someone who gets that? It's unusual. People, they don't see it that way. I have to explain it and now I'm talking to somebody, oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. That's very reinforcing.
00:24:28
Speaker
I watch, you know, the Speed Skater, oh gosh, what's his name? I can't really think of it. You know what I'm thinking about? Before he skates, he always yawns. He's always yawning, and I think, oh, that must be his eustress coming out. Like, right before a race, he always has these big yawns. And sometimes before I speak, the same thing happens. Interesting. But now we're back to, OK. OK, so you want to know, so how do you train? How do you take education and training? Yes.
00:24:57
Speaker
Why is empathy important? Why is it important to ask more questions? So that's the education. But now we can do role play, couldn't we? That's training. We do role play. So break up into dyads, two people. And one person, tell your story to the other person. And the other person, I just want you to listen.
00:25:18
Speaker
And we forced you, educate them on how do you listen with empathy like you did with that individual on the plane. Yeah, and I did that because I have mental health first aid training. And so I used it yesterday. Yeah, and because you believe it, your facial expression, your body language. You know what it said? I care. That's what you were saying to this guy. I care.
00:25:42
Speaker
So the safety training that we've been doing forever, right? We need to add some education, particularly around empathy and around empathetic listening and the humanism principles that you're talking about. So that's what you're spending your life's work doing.
00:25:59
Speaker
It's actively caring for people. We have a movement. It's now worldwide. And we have a website, AC4P. Check it out, ac4p.org. And my daughter just started a company. And you're going to interview her later today, I think. Yes, I am. And Krista started a company, Geller AC4P, and a website, gellerac4p.com. We have books. We have wristbands. Let me show you this wristband. Sure.
00:26:29
Speaker
This wristband, it says, actively caring for people. Every wristband has its own identification number. And my daughter will talk about this here at this conference this afternoon. It's called STEP. S-T-E-P. Step into actively caring. S, see somebody doing an act of kindness.
00:26:53
Speaker
Jill, you've given me an opportunity to talk to you about the psychology of safety. I'm thanking you by giving you that wristband. And that's S. Thank is the T for step. So I'm thanking you. Now, now I want you to notice each wristband has its own identification number. I see this. It's a long number. They're all different. Yeah, they're all different. You go to the website ac4p.org and you
00:27:20
Speaker
you signing with that wristband number and your story. Scott Geller gave me wristband number so and so, you know, because I invited him to do a podcast on the psychology of safety. Next word, P, you pass it on.
00:27:36
Speaker
You pass it on to somebody else, and they tell their, we have these wristbands traveling all over the world. Interesting. It started right here. And it's acts of kindness. It's pay it forward. Everybody knows about pay it forward, but it's not random acts of kindness. It's intentional, purposeful. You got that too. You're good. It's purposeful acts of kindness. And we have books. And one more thing. I'm wearing a blue wristband.
00:28:05
Speaker
police officers were blue because they had to have blue. The thin blue line. And it says, actively caring for people policing. And so community policing is now happening in several communities. Yes. Arizona has Northern Virginia and police officers wear this wristband. It has its own identification number and they do the step process. Yeah. And then they tell the citizen,
00:28:30
Speaker
Go to our website, ActivelyCaringPolicing.org. And by the way, we have training books that we go to police departments, and we teach them the process. We have a book that teaches this. We have it for safety professionals. My daughter and I have a book that's published by American Society of Safety Professionals, and it's here at this conference. And it's called Actively Caring for People's Safety.
00:28:57
Speaker
We have a former police officer and I wrote one for police officers. I wrote one for school personnel. I wrote one for college students. And my latest one, and I want to give you a copy, it's for parents, actively caring,
00:29:14
Speaker
for your child. How would it be a more effective parent? Don't we all need that? Oh, I don't know if I should bring this up, but there's a syndicate columnist. And somebody passed on one of his columns. His name is John Rosemary.
00:29:30
Speaker
Sounds familiar. OK. Oh, I hope it's it really disturbs me. OK. He talks about the authoritarian parent. Tell them what to do, but don't give them a rationale. Just the opposite of what we're talking about. And if they say why? Because I said so. That is so opposite. So the principles we're talking about for safety are true for parenting. And by the way, he also says in his latest column
00:30:01
Speaker
Parents need to be leaders and be authoritarian. You know, that's wrong. Leaders are empathic. Leaders give a rationale behind the rule. Leaders are humble. Leaders ask for feedback. That's what a leader is. And we're growing the next generation of leader as a parent of a 17-year-old who's on the cusp of starting college in T-minus however many months now.
Challenges in Knowledge Sharing and Parenting
00:30:26
Speaker
My biggest panic as a parent is whether or not I put enough feathers on the wings to successfully fly out of the nest and to be able to make his own decisions and take care of himself, not only his human body and to make good decisions and to be a good student, but more importantly, how to take care of his emotional being. Oh, and that's like, that's like, that's my panic part of the job. So yes, I'll take that book.
00:30:49
Speaker
But you know what scares me? Because parents do their best but then they listen to these newspaper clippings and it's getting to the public. I'm an ivory tower professor and it's just so, just, distressful. Right. Because we know the profound knowledge and the challenge is to get it out there. You know, marketing wins over profound knowledge.
00:31:09
Speaker
I look around this conference, it's marketing everywhere. And I know, mention anything, I know where there's people are lacking. It's not their fault. They've not been educated on some of the principles that they need to be educated on. But sometimes consultants stop learning.
00:31:27
Speaker
I'm a consultant, so I know what I'm going to do. They stop learning. Not evolving. I'm going in my 50th year. I never stop learning. Teaching and learning is our legacy. It continues just like you do, right? You continue to learn, and you continue to teach. It's an ongoing process. It's what gets me out of bed. So speaking of your legacy, and Krista, your daughter is nearby, and I'll be recording with her later.
00:31:51
Speaker
I've had one mother-daughter duo on the podcast so far, first a daughter who's a safety professional, and her mother is a safety professional as well, a professor at the University of Whitewater, Wisconsin. And so you are now going to be the second parental units on the podcast, so my question to you is,
00:32:13
Speaker
Did you set out to intentionally raise a safety professional, or how did that work? And the other question could be, how does it make you feel? Yes, exactly. To have a daughter who's following in your footsteps. You know, it's kind of like, we have a limited time. You know, my tombstone says, driven to make a difference. My autobiography, written in a behavioral science, says, driven to make a difference. But we only have so much time. But when you have
00:32:42
Speaker
A daughter, or a son, or someone who can take over for you. That makes it feel good, if in that. Let's face it.
00:32:52
Speaker
So names come and go. You know, whenever I give a presentation, I talk about my heroes, W. Edwards Deming. And some people will know his name, but many people, who's that? Well, you know, he passed away a few years ago at the age of 93. He had 93 years, but then he's forgotten. And sometimes we reinvent the wheel. Some of the stuff that Deming taught us, we're, you know, Deming said, don't blame people for problems caused by the system.
00:33:19
Speaker
We still, and another one of my heroes is B.F. Skinner. And he was the behavioral scientist. But the point, my point is, they only had so many years. But I have a daughter now who can take over. And you asked the question that I, no, I didn't, never intended it, but I was a researcher, and so she was my subject for many years. One of my, she always talks about this study. Maybe she'll talk about it later. I'll just give you a brief. I have two daughters. They both got their PhDs, by the way.
00:33:49
Speaker
When Krista was 16, and the other daughter was 14, I wired them for sound, and I sent them into stores to buy cigarettes in Blacksburg, Virginia. Whoa, I bet they thought. Whoa. They were not happy. They were not. But you know, they did it. I told them why. Explain why. And it wasn't a top-down thing. And they enjoyed the fact that they were going to be in this experiment. They went to 20 different stores.
00:34:16
Speaker
Krista was never turned down. She bought 20 packs of cigarettes. And of course, I had staff who was, buy me, buy me Vantage, buy me Lucky Strike. Hard pack, soft pack, all those. Yeah. And then the other daughter, she was 14. She was turned down twice. Whoa.
00:34:34
Speaker
once by her basketball coach who knew that she shouldn't be but here's the deal then it came out in the newspaper front page news the sting in Blacksburg and their pictures were on the front page with a mound of cigarettes in front of them and then I sent them back
00:34:50
Speaker
They went back to the stores, the same 20 stores. What happened? It decreased, but not as much as we wanted to. Krista was stopped four times. She tells a story about one time she's in Kroger.
00:35:07
Speaker
and they had this big poster with the newspaper article, don't sell cigarettes to these girls. And she hadn't seen it. So she's waiting and the conveyor belt, her pack of cigarettes is rolling down the conveyor belt and the cashier looks at her, looks at the poster and gives her a lecture, a public lecture. But here's the bottom line, they lost a lot of friends. We shut down cigarette purchase by 18 years. By the teenagers, yeah.
00:35:34
Speaker
wow good on them but get back to your son he's 17 yeah and you're worried I don't blame you yeah social media is ridiculous and I know we don't want to get political but we have so-called leaders who are really managers top-down he
Leading with Empathy and Actively Caring Movement
00:35:54
Speaker
There's a difference between managing behavior and leading people. And what we're seeing, not only in the government, we're seeing it everywhere. It's all about managing behavior. Even behavior-based safety is coming across as manage it.
00:36:09
Speaker
Watch this person, write down the numbers, plug it onto a computer, get percent safe. That's behavior-based safety. Or show them a video and we're going to have great behaviors. Yeah, man. In fact, there's one consulting firm that to get you interested in behavior-based safety, they show you a video of workers doing
00:36:31
Speaker
at-risk behavior silly at-risk behavior the audience laughs and says that's behavior-based safety no it's not but it is by the way some people teach it sure they're missing to bring it all around now they're missing the caring part yeah the humanistic part and they're they're missing the connection like you had with that individual on the airplane imagine he left that airplane feeling
00:36:59
Speaker
better you made him feel better could you listen quick story with the wristband yeah is this mind keep yes okay but I have a smaller one for you we have two sizes okay but so maybe should let me take this I'm gonna show you sure so what are my students is telling
00:37:16
Speaker
We call it a movement, the actively caring for people movement. And he's talking to another student at LSU, Louisiana State University, and they had a leadership conference. And he's explaining the movement. By the way, it started after our tragedy at Virginia Tech, April 16, 2007, as you all know.
00:37:33
Speaker
They only say 32, but there were 33. The shooter was killed also. And we have to understand that that shooter was bullied because he didn't speak clear English. He was bullied. We have to understand what was the culture that influenced that terrible behavior. OK, it was wrong behavior. But he had no friends at Virginia Tech.
00:37:58
Speaker
They ignored him. He wore sunglasses and a baseball cap when he came to class. But anyway, it just goes, it's more than behavior. So that's how you started this active caring piece with the... Well, I was doing actively caring. We call that actively caring for safety in the 90s with Exxon. But after my student came back, after, well, let me finish the story. So the girl he was telling the story to, the name is Amy, she says, let me tell you a story.
00:38:28
Speaker
I was riding the metro in Washington, D.C., sitting across from a gentleman whose head was down. It reminds me of your story, looking so unhappy, so sad. And I know that on the metro you're not supposed to talk to people. You're just supposed to sit and ride. But I looked up and I said, are you okay?
00:38:50
Speaker
That only question and she looked up to him. Yeah, he looked up to her and he said no I just had the worst day of my life and he explained and she asked questions and showed emotion. Yeah, and then She said, you know my I'm gonna have to get off here soon. I sure hope you have a better day He said wait a minute before you leave and he took a
00:39:15
Speaker
this wristband off his wrist and he says somebody gave this to me it says actively caring for people you just actively cared for me more than anybody has all year and so she told that story and my student comes back and says
00:39:33
Speaker
Where did he get that wristband? We didn't have numbers on them in those days. Where did he get it? What if we could track this? What if we had people put a number on this and we could track where it's been and where it's going? And this one wristband that I started right here at the NSC conference in San Diego goes to South Africa. And by the way, the movement is big in South Africa. So that's how it all started. So how many of these are in circulation?
00:40:00
Speaker
Oh, thousands, thousands. That was 15,000 something on that line. There you go. Yeah. 15,311. That's your number. But we have them for... By the way, we've reduced bullying by more than 50% at schools where they had a bullying prevention program. Guess what bullying was? Prevention, how is. Find a bully. Punish the bully. Kick him out of school.
00:40:30
Speaker
We don't completely different. How do we do it? It's called actively caring for people. We don't pay attention to the bullier. Some of that bullying happens for attention. We pay attention to acts of kindness. So students talk to each other and they give out wristbands. They talk about acts of kindness. In one third grade, by the way, this is published, so this is research. In one school, the teacher would read
00:41:00
Speaker
would ask the students on a three by five card, look for acts of kindness and put it in our treasure chest at the back of the room. All I want you to do is write the name of the persons, the act of kindness and your name and what was the act. And every morning she read three of those to the class. This is like third graders. And then she picked out one
00:41:26
Speaker
and she gave them a wristband as the actively caring hero of the day. At the end of the day, they passed it in, and the next day somebody else wore the wristband. This silicone rubber wristband, a child size, was so popular, and all they talked about was actively caring for others. Bullying was not part of, and we measured it systematically. We gave out surveys every Friday, and sharing increased,
00:41:55
Speaker
Acts of communism increased. Get this. Self-esteem increased. And bullying behavior decreased. Even at a school that had tried the top-down punitive approach.
00:42:10
Speaker
That's more powerful than bulletproof backpacks, right? And does this country not need Bivley-Karen? We absolutely need that. No, it's Martin Luther King said the tragedy of today, of paraphrasing, is not the
00:42:30
Speaker
the noise, the loud noise of the bad people. It's the appalling silence of the good people.
Role of Safety Professionals and Self-Transcendence
00:42:41
Speaker
Right? Martin Luther King said that. The good people need to step forward and actively care. I've heard a nun whose name I'm not going to get right calls it the cesspool of silence. Yes.
00:42:55
Speaker
And I wrote that on a note to myself when I keep it in my house and her challenge is to be able to say in those times where things are like bullying behavior or non-empathetic people or just terrible words and language that are used. To be able to be brave enough to say I think differently about that. She said it keeps you out of the cesspool of silence.
00:43:21
Speaker
And you know what, related to that is social media. Social media is the negative stuff. And by the way, I'm proud to say I have a TED Talk. I have a TED Talk. I have listened to it. It's on self-motivation. It's more than 8 million views. And I watch, I look at the comments that come in. And some of the comments are so negative. And I want to respond. And my colleagues say, don't waste your time. No.
00:43:48
Speaker
But maybe I shouldn't. We should waste our time. I mean, look at it this way. We're hearing all the negative stuff. With my Ted Talk, that's wasting my time. But some of the negative stuff that comes over the media, we're giving them a voice and we're sitting back and saying, don't pay attention to them.
00:44:07
Speaker
Maybe we need to start a voice out there like this voice of the positive, like your voice. That's what you guys do, you know? Vivid learning is about a positive voice to safety and beyond. You know, the principles we talk here about safety, it's more than safety. We talk parenting, we talk actively caring is beyond. We're taking care of the whole human and isn't that what we do as safety professionals?
00:44:35
Speaker
It's not just figuring out what the right guard is to be on something. It's like, why does that need to be there? And you know what's powerful about safety professionals? They understand proactive. Yeah, right. You know, the rest of the world, we're all reacting. We wait for something to happen and people, but safety professionals understand they need to be proactive. I can share one more thing about humanism. Sure.
00:44:59
Speaker
Okay.
00:45:31
Speaker
then you have safety and security, then you have your social needs, then self-esteem and self-actualization. I once asked my professor, sir, what, as a behaviorist, I want to know, how do I know when I'm self-actualized? Right, I've always wanted to know this. Please, please share it, because it feels sort of like eco-filled, right? But it is humanism.
00:45:42
Speaker
What's up there? What's up there at the start?
00:45:53
Speaker
And the humanists don't necessarily have to put it in behavioral terms. But I need to know, like you said. And he said, it's when you can sit back and say, I did it. I made a difference. I did what I wanted to do. And then he looked me square in the eyes and he said, and Geller, you're never going to get there.
00:46:13
Speaker
And he's so right. I'll never believe that I've done all I wanted to do to make it different. But Maslow died in 1970. His last book was published by his wife in 1971. It's called The Farthest Reaches of Human Nature. He said he was wrong. He said he was wrong. The top is not self-actualization. The top is self-transcendence.
00:46:39
Speaker
going beyond yourself for somebody else. That's what safety professionals do. They give you chills to know. And by the way, you don't have to go all these things. Mother Teresa didn't. Every day, Gandhi didn't. Every day, people help others without feeling self-actualized. I mean, self-actualize this thing. I've done it all. You know, we help people.
00:47:06
Speaker
My daughter and I are writing, the next book is The Power of Pets. The Power of Pets. I wrote a book, I think it's my best accomplishment. It's 31 co-authors with this book called Applied Psychology, actively caring for people. And my daughter, you'll have to ask her this afternoon about her chapter, The Power of Pets. But the reason I bring that up is
00:47:30
Speaker
We actively care for our animals. That is, it's about a helping, not a selfie. But our culture is all about self. I'm taking a selfie instead of, as Maslow taught us, but it's not out there. Just like you said, self-actualization. We need to send this message to safety professionals. It's self-transcendence. And every day,
00:47:56
Speaker
Safety professionals go beyond the call of duty for someone else.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:48:01
Speaker
They ask someone to put on those safety glasses. They're proactive. Proactive means actively caring. Proactive means self-transcendence. It's not about me. It's about you. And knowing that, safety professionals, they teach others. I mean, teach others that the top of that ladder
00:48:23
Speaker
is going beyond yourself for somebody else. And that's the mission of a safety profession.
00:48:29
Speaker
It is. Amen. Amen to that. As we're rounding out our time today, I was going to ask you what keeps you going and what gets you out of bed every day, but I think you just nailed it. I think you just nailed it. Yeah, my students, my professors say, Scott, when are you going to retire, man? And you know what I sell? I gave the orientation lectures this morning, this summer,
00:48:53
Speaker
600 at a time, parents and students. And what I said to those new students, I said, you look, I know you want to get your grades. You say to your son, I know I want you to get good grades. I want you to do well in college. But let me tell you what college is really about. Finding your purpose. Finding what you want. If it takes you six years, seven years, 10 years, I wish for those students
00:49:21
Speaker
that they would find a job like I found that I don't want to leave. That it's not a job. It's a mission. It's a purpose. It's actively caring for people. Wonderful. Dr. Geller, thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Really appreciate your time today. I do too. We're going to say goodbye to our guests. Really, thank you so much for sharing your story. And thank you all so much for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution.
00:49:50
Speaker
making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you'd like to join the conversation about this episode or any of our previous episodes, follow our page and join the Accidental Safety Pro Community Group on Facebook. If you aren't subscribed,
00:50:06
Speaker
and you want to hear past and future episodes, subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player you'd like. You can also find all the episodes at vividlearningsystems.com slash podcast. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect with more safety professionals like you and I and Dr. Geller, and share any episodes you'd like with your friends. If you have a suggestion for a guest, including if it's you,
00:50:33
Speaker
shoot me an email at social at vividlearningsystems.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.