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Dr. Frankie Bashan: How to Find Authentic Love
95 Plays5 years ago
On the show today we are joined by Dr. Frankie Bashan, psychologist, matchmaker and relationship guru! She has over 20 years of experience working with couples and individuals and has managed to find her calling and passion in a life devoted to helping others to find love. Her company, Little Gay Book, serves the lesbian and bisexual community but you better believe that the ideas she shares on the show are applicable to everyone! Dr. Frankie is so honest and hilarious as she tells us about her early pull towards matchmaking and how she found her father a new partner when she was just 14-years-old! In our conversation we dive into online dating, setting up her business, balance, vulnerability and she offers a strong message about the powers of hope and love. For this beautiful and inspiring chat, be sure to join us!
Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Frankie Bashan
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to this week's episode of The Art of Authenticity. Thank you guys once again for tuning in to today's show. We've got Dr. Frankie Bashan joining us. She is a psychologist, matchmaker, and relationship guru. We're talking to somebody who's got 20 years of experience working with couples, individuals, and matchmaking. She's working in five different cities, expanding quickly.
00:00:39
Speaker
We get into it in today's show, you guys.
Themes of Love and Relationships
00:00:42
Speaker
It's all about love, relationships, trust. Why can't I find the person I'm meant to be with? What goes wrong? She is hilarious and honest and truthful, and I really enjoyed every minute. I know you will too, if you're wanting to check her out.
00:00:57
Speaker
It's LittleGayBook. Yep, LittleGayBook.com. That's because she is a lesbian lap matchmaker who focuses on lesbian and bisexual relationships predominantly. She's moving into the straight community soon, but I'm telling you this advice. It doesn't really matter whether you're gay, straight, or however you identify, it's universal. I hope you enjoyed today's show. If you want to send me a note, tell me your thoughts. I'm always here, Laura at LauraCo.com.
00:01:23
Speaker
Hey Frankie, how are you today? Hello Laura, I am great. I'm so happy to be here with you. I am so excited we were talking before the show went live and I was saying I have so many questions I had to stop typing them at some point here. Where are you calling in from? I am in Alameda, so it's an island pretty close to San Francisco and right next to Oakland.
00:01:46
Speaker
And please tell me, because I'm in Chicago, is it like beautiful blue skies? No, it is gloomy, gray, rainy, although we need rain, right? We've had a really bad drought, so lots of green grass and gloomy skies. And we've had two earthquakes, so one early this morning and one yesterday early morning.
00:02:09
Speaker
It doesn't mean there's something bigger coming, you know? Right, right. Chicago just kind of tortures us all the time, but you guys get these huge events, right? Yes, yes. And I haven't lived here during a major earthquake. It's always just been little, slight, it's a slight shake. And I really am not from the East Coast, I'm from New York City.
00:02:31
Speaker
And they kind of scare me earthquakes, but they haven't been so scary since I've been here and it's been 17 years. So let's knock on wood, knocking right now. Knocking too. Okay.
Journey into Matchmaking
00:02:43
Speaker
Well, for those of you guys who haven't checked it out, Frankie is a dating expert, an online coach. She has the only lesbian dating service in the country. Is that right?
00:02:53
Speaker
That is right. My goal is to actually make Little Gay Book international. It's definitely in the plans in the next five years. Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, before we jump into it, because I love your story. I love everything you're building and it's such an interesting business.
00:03:09
Speaker
Take us back. How did you, you're a clinical psychologist for nine years. How did you move from psychology into matchmaking, into online lesbian dating and little gay book was birthed? Can you give us a little backstory? Sure. Yeah, it's been pretty organic. So I have been doing matchmaking as a hobby before I opened Little Gay Book for years. I didn't even, it just, I'm a people person. I love, I'm a connector and I love to connect people.
00:03:38
Speaker
And I would, you know, I would meet people out and about and I'd be thinking, I'd find out they were single. And then I would think about who I could match them with. And I was doing matchmaking for fun with friends and family. I actually matched my dad with my stepmom.
00:03:51
Speaker
And they were together for 25 years. So that was my first. I know crazy when you were 14. Yeah, she was my eye doctor. And I knew it right when I met her. I was like, oh my gosh. And she told me she was single and my dad was single at the time. And I thought this would be a perfect match. And it was they have three kids that are now grown.
00:04:10
Speaker
Oh my God, that's so precocious, like a little 14-year-old who's like, I found my dad's new wife. That's really funny if you think about how 14, right? Usually kids are not thinking that way. No, I was never really a kid. That's the thing. I was very precocious. I was growing up in New York City with two parents that were entrepreneurs, so I kind of raised myself in many ways and definitely wasn't the typical 14-year-old.
00:04:38
Speaker
Matchmaking has always just kind of been a part of me, right? And I had been in therapy because every Upper West Side kid pretty much went to therapy in New York City. It's just kind of a Jewish thing that you did. So my therapist from the early on would say like, Frankie, you would be an amazing therapist and
00:05:00
Speaker
You know, and just kind of, she definitely drew me towards the profession. And initially I wanted to do television, so I wanted to be an anchor or a television host. And I focused on, I went to Northeastern University and I focused on communications and film production.
00:05:17
Speaker
And I did a few internships like at Inside Edition at Montau Williams. Oh my gosh, I'm going back many, many years right now. But, and I thought, you know what, it was so not my scene. Like I liked the work, but I didn't like what I was seeing politically kind of freaked me out. So I, I, I swung the pendulum completely in the other direction and I decided to get study for the GRE and get my doctorate in clinical psychology.
Founding Little Gay Book
00:05:43
Speaker
So that's how I got to California. So I moved to Berkeley. I went to the Wright Institute in 01 and I got my doctorate. I finished my program in four years and then I went straight into doing a ton of clinical work. So I worked within the gay community, outside of the gay community, with children, with families, with singles, and I just kind of
00:06:01
Speaker
I wanted to do it all to figure out where I would land and what I would really gravitate towards. And I kept gravitating towards working with couples who were struggling with intimacy, romance, sex, like, you know, just really working with couples on deepening their relationship and then also working with singles who were having trouble dating. So after I was in the trenches at Kaiser for years, I was there for like, I think six or seven years seeing everybody.
00:06:29
Speaker
I decided to kind of give matchmaking as a profession a shot. And really there were almost no firms in the country. There were a few heterosexual firms, but there were no queer firms.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I kept hearing from my clients, like, you know, Dr. Frankie, I can't meet a quality professional woman. I don't know what to do. And they were feeling hopeless. And I'm thinking, if I could only introduce you to my client that I had earlier today, like, fabulous. You know what I mean? That would be totally unethical. Can't do it. You're like putting wine in the waiting rooms and route roses.
00:07:07
Speaker
Exactly. So I kept, this kept coming up and I'm like, you know what? I don't have a lot to lose, right? This is like a perfect, my kids were, they were like three years old and I thought now's a good time to just give it a shot. And I did, I took on a client and at the time I think I charged like $300 a month, which is insane when you think about it. So much work that I had no idea, right? And I had no database. So I pounded the pavement. I literally went to,
00:07:34
Speaker
A million events like galas and all sorts of professional networking events to try to build this database and basically fast forward. That was in 09 and now it's like
00:07:46
Speaker
We're coming up on our 10th anniversary. That's awesome. You said something that I think is so important to just back up to for one second. For people out there who are starting something new, you took on a client and you set your price really, really low. I did that as well when I first started coaching, because it took all the pressure off of getting started because there's so much fear and doing something new. Why did you do that? Why did you do $300 for a month and work your ass off? What was that?
00:08:15
Speaker
I kind of had no idea and I it's so typical me instead of like trying to talk to matchmakers that were already established to figure out what the going rate was and like to figure out what the right way to come out the gate would be. I just sort of picked a number that didn't feel intimidating to me. Yeah. And I also think about it early on when you don't have a database like you're promising somebody something
00:08:38
Speaker
that you yourself, it's not even tangible yet because it's just something abstract at that time. It was something I knew I could create, but I didn't have it at my fingertips yet. So that's why. I didn't want to overcharge when I felt like I wasn't really ready entirely, 100% to take somebody on, but I knew that that would put the fire under my ass to make it happen, to take this business off the ground, put the pressure on me. So that's how I did it.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's such great advice and you said it so quickly, but the fear of getting started in something new is so real for people and I think that setting the number low enough so that you don't know what you're doing, you're trying something new and you don't put that expectation on yourself of being perfect, which I think stops us from starting. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have made plenty of mistakes and that's how I've learned and that's how I've grown. You're going to fail. It's par for the course.
00:09:33
Speaker
So I didn't like if I would have priced higher like say I would have priced $1,000 a month back then it would have put so much pressure on me that I might have failed, you know, it might have been too much and then maybe my first client would be dissatisfied. She was so happy right because I matched her and it was a reasonable price and I was just beginning I just wanted to kind of use that as a way to
00:10:00
Speaker
Give me a boost in confidence and give me a chance to develop things. Yeah, I love it. How did you decide to go from this first client to working specifically with lesbian and bisexual women?
Focusing on Lesbian & Bisexual Women
00:10:12
Speaker
You know how they say find a niche, right? The best way with a company, if you're going to launch a business, figure out what your niche is.
00:10:22
Speaker
And I wanted to do matchmaking for everybody. I didn't want it to necessarily be a lesbian and bisexual company initially, but I realized that that community was so accessible to me because I was married to a woman and I had already been really involved in the community to begin with. Like I would volunteer and I did stuff at the San Francisco LGBT center.
00:10:48
Speaker
And I felt like it was a good way in to meeting people and it's a niche. So that's why I started there. And did you feel like you had found your passion in doing the work of matchmaking?
Balancing Career & Avoiding Burnout
00:11:01
Speaker
Was therapy also a passion? How did this fit into your life broadly in terms of purpose and authenticity? So I have always done both.
00:11:11
Speaker
Now I do more like I still have a small psychotherapy practice because I love the work and I don't want to lose my skill set, but I spend more hours a week doing matchmaking and dating and relationship coaching than anything else. So for me, it's about a balance. Like I don't want to just focus on one area because I worry about burnout.
00:11:30
Speaker
And so I just sort of rotate through, like every day I have a combination of, except for Mondays, that's when I just mainly do coaching, but every other day there's a combination of things. Like I'm interviewing potential matches for my matchmaking clients, you know, for a few hours a day and then I'm doing coaching and then I'm doing some therapy. So it's, and writing, you know, and things like that.
00:11:53
Speaker
It's a combination of things just because I want to keep it exciting and interesting and I don't want to get bored or burnt out. Yeah. Very cool. Some people think they have to just niche out to the point of doing one singular thing. I have to just be a therapist. I just have to write. But you can build a life with all these different components if that makes sense for you. There's no right answer to it. Exactly. Yeah. And it works for me. And some people, plenty of people through the years have said, I don't know how you do all that you do.
00:12:22
Speaker
It's just part of my personality. I love it like that. I'd like it to be fast, and moving, and lots of balls in the air, and I function really well like that. But not everybody's like that, right? Yeah, and it all fits under one umbrella, right? But it just moves from topic to topic. I'm very similar. I've never been able to just do one thing all day long that just feels like all the air gets sucked out of the room thinking about it.
00:12:47
Speaker
Exactly yeah i can relate to that yeah so it is all under one umbrella it's all about.
00:12:52
Speaker
you know, relationships, romance, dating, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, I got to dive in.
Debunking Dating Myths
00:13:00
Speaker
So, Little Gate Book, right? You have your business, it's moving along. There's so many things that you must hear over and over and over, right? So, I'm hitting up a couple of the ones that I think I hear all the time, but feel free to jump in with your favorite. But there's all these myths out there or ways in which people talk about dating, you know,
00:13:19
Speaker
I can't find the right one, right? They have a laundry list of things that they're looking for and they don't know why they can't just find that, right? Or I'm this age and so it's going to be harder for me to find. What do you say to these kind of broad statements people make when they're struggling to find love in their life? That you're creating a narrative that's getting in the way of you being successful. I think people are looking for perfection
00:13:48
Speaker
We are all imperfect beings and you are not going to find somebody who's absolutely perfect or fits every single one of your criteria. It's just, it's just not going to happen. So I think that we need to be realistic, you know, that we're dealing with human beings and that are hopefully, you know, striving to be their best selves every day and stretch themselves, you know.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah. And I think we can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like we tell ourselves that, you know, she doesn't exist and I'm not going to meet her because I'm, you know, 55 years old or 60 years old. And, you know, women don't go out anymore and they're all partnered up at that age. And I hear this all the time. I mean, you know, I said, all right, well, you know what, then you're done. You know, you've already told yourself that you've convinced yourself of that. And for sure, that's going to be the outcome for you. Mm hmm.
00:14:39
Speaker
So the narrative people are telling themselves becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy. And why do people get into such a negative narrative, right? Like is it things that they've just heard or is it fear of their own inadequacy? Like what's beneath that? Yeah, disappointment. Like the fear that actually, you know, the fear that they're not going to find somebody instead of having a positive outlook about it and being like, no, I'm going to create this for myself.
00:15:04
Speaker
knowing that it's going to be hard, but I'm still going to put myself out there and I'm going to basically like law of attraction, right? I'm going to manifest it. That's a much better approach than going into it going, you know what? It's not going to happen. I miss the boat. Everybody's partnered now and I'm not going to bother going out anymore because what's the point? I don't want to be that creepy older person in the room. Well, then you're guaranteed that you're not, you know, that you're not going to find a partner with that kind of attitude.
00:15:34
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when you said out there, right? Like, people say that all the time. Like, I'm going to put myself out there. What is that? Today, you know, it's harder, right? Because a lot of us are relying on online dating apps. But putting yourself out there, I think still today means like going to maybe meetup groups, right? Trying to be social.
00:15:59
Speaker
and finding a commonality, like a group that is focusing like a book club, or if you're somebody who's a voracious reader, then you go to a book club to try to meet your person, because you're going to at least share that common interest. And sometimes people will say, I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to try this dating app thing. I've heard horrible things about it, but I'm just going to give it a shot. And they go in thinking that this is another thing that I find.
00:16:29
Speaker
that we all think that we deserve. We deserve somebody who's exceptional. We're told that we deserve that nice Audi and that nice Mercedes. We're told, the media tells us, you deserve it. You work really hard. You deserve that nice car, or you deserve this really nice house. And the truth is, yeah, we deserve somebody great, but
00:16:52
Speaker
We also, like, let's look at ourselves. I certainly have clients that say to me or potential clients that say, you know, Frankie, I really want to meet somebody gorgeous, like just beautiful and in amazing shape. And I'm looking at this person and I'm going, hold on a minute, back up, right? Hold up. Are you in great shape? Because I just want to understand. And then they're like, usually this is the response. Well, I'm working towards it.
00:17:19
Speaker
I said, okay, you haven't arrived yet. So how can you expect somebody? I'm sorry. I like direct East Coast attitude, but you can't expect somebody who's in shape that already has arrived to want to be with somebody who's not. And you hear that. I love that you hear that, right? Because I remember you telling me this. I think people would be surprised that like this is in the gay female community, right? Like women are saying that because we often think men are the ones who are objectifying women.
00:17:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah, no, this happens in the lesbian community. It is no different in that way. Yes, they all you know, I mean, not all let me take that back. Many want just gorgeous, beautiful faces and a beautiful body. So you actually tell them like, have you had the gym lately too? Yeah, I confront them like I don't really
00:18:08
Speaker
Like they're just fooling themselves and I'm here to really make a difference in people's lives and I can't collude with them. So I'm pretty direct. Like I have people contacting me that are smoking every day still. And I'm like, you know what?
00:18:19
Speaker
You need to quit and come back to me in a year. You couldn't pay me enough money to take you on as a client and you smoke. I won't be able to find you a match. Oh, wow. Is it that hard to find a match when you're smoking? Nobody wants to be the smoker anymore. Interesting. Interesting. So what's the difference between matching gay women and straight couples, gay men? Do you feel like there's a big difference or is it actually in the end, people are people?
Comparing Matchmaking for Different Couples
00:18:44
Speaker
It's not a major difference. I mean, the biggest differences are that
00:18:48
Speaker
You know, most matchmaking agencies that are heterosexual, the men are the client, right? And then the men pay the matchmaker and then the matchmaker will find matches in their catch pool of women who don't really pay a fee. So that's sort of the model in the straight world. Whereas my clients, they're all women, right? They're lesbians and bisexual women and they pay the fee.
00:19:12
Speaker
My matchmaking clients. And then the other thing that I think is different is that within the lesbian or the queer community there, it's much more specific. Like a straight guy is going to say, I just want, just, just introduce me to beautiful, smart.
00:19:28
Speaker
women that have it together, right? That's what they want. And women, it's like nuanced. So they may want an androgynous woman. They may want a butch woman to an androgynous woman. They may want an androgynous woman to a high femme. It's very nuanced. So I'm looking for that
00:19:49
Speaker
specific presentation because somebody who likes fans is not going to be interested in somebody who's soft butch. I have to be careful to be able to meet that attraction for them to present somebody they're going to be attracted to. In the last some years, there's been much more
00:20:12
Speaker
differentiation in all of that, right? The amount of words people use to describe their sexuality, right? The ways in which they discuss it. How has this really shifted since you started?
Impact of LGBTQ Cultural Changes
00:20:23
Speaker
Because this must be, I would think, right? In the decade you've been doing this, in a tremendous shift in the culture. It's gotten harder. And I actually sometimes step into sticky situations, even myself, because it's changing so quickly. Like just last week I had somebody email me and said,
00:20:42
Speaker
You know, your matchmaking form isn't representative of me and I felt excluded. It's like, it's, it's moving so quickly that I didn't, I, like I, I updated my form a year ago and I need to go back in there and I need to update it again. Cause I never want anybody to feel excluded. So it's just, it's getting more complicated and more nuanced for me. And I just have to be as informed as possible, take the feedback and integrate it and really listen to what people are wanting because
00:21:11
Speaker
It's very specific. Yeah. And on the other side of it, though, people seem more comfortable and open and relaxed in their sexuality and able to talk about it. Have you seen a big shift in that as well? Like people's shame or comfort levels moving around in the last years? Yeah, in the last, I would say, five years. Like it's become way more, I would say, people are more confident, like especially bisexual women.
00:21:38
Speaker
are more comfortable just saying that they're bisexual. And they're comfortable when I say one of the questions in my interview is, you know, when was the last if you have you been with men and when was the last time you were with a guy? And they're, I feel like they're more honest with me, like they could say, you know, like six months ago, whereas in the past,
00:21:57
Speaker
Nobody ever, I don't remember, like early on, maybe the first five years where anybody really, you know, that identified as bi, which was rare, but that they told me that they had recently been with guys because, you know, they just, they, they're discriminated against in our community. They were then more so than they are now. And for people out there who don't understand that, can you explain what the discrimination is?
00:22:21
Speaker
That's a tough one. So I might offend some people, I don't know, but I'm just going to say it. So within the lesbian community, there's this feeling, and this is obviously my opinion, there's this feeling that you need to choose. If you're going to be, if you're going to be with women, you need to just be with women. You shouldn't, they think of it as like somebody who is unsure of themselves, unsure of their sexuality, and they sort of are waffling and flipping from one gender to the other.
00:22:48
Speaker
And there's a lot of fear that, you know, lesbians, I hear them time and again when I, you know, when I ask a question about, you know, are they open to dating somebody who's bisexual? Because it's like a lot of women will say, I want to date fems. Well, many fems identify as bi. So we get into the conversation when I say, when I ask them that question and they say, no, I don't want to date a bisexual.
00:23:12
Speaker
And then I asked them why the response is almost always, I already have to deal with the fear of my partner cheating on me. Now I'm going to have to fear, you know, that they're going to cheat on me with men too, not just women. So it's a cheater is a cheater. That's what people don't understand, right? Somebody who can't be faithful and loyal, whether they're straight or gay or bi, it doesn't matter. They're going to cheat. Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
So it's just fear-based, really. So I use it as an opportunity to educate people, you know? So dating apps have come into the world, right? With huge force. What is your take? Speed dating, meeting in person, matchmaking, events, meeting casually through meetups versus dating apps. What do you do this day in, day out?
Navigating Online Dating
00:24:02
Speaker
What's your sense of the benefits of these various different ways to meet people?
00:24:07
Speaker
So I always say don't put all your eggs in one basket, but with online dating, you've got to go into it with some education. Like you can't go in blind because there are behaviors that people are engaging in that are harmful. They're hurtful. And if you don't know that, you know, there's a such thing as
00:24:29
Speaker
you know, mosting or ghosting or catfishing or benching. Like if you don't know what those terms mean and you don't know that you're susceptible to them when you participate in online dating, you're in for some trouble. Right. So for the audience real quick, can you give a little explanation of a couple of those? Yeah. So catfishing is just like there were people online who, you know, more often than not might be like looking to get some money out of you. And oftentimes they're, they're overseas and they sort of,
00:24:58
Speaker
They really engage you for weeks and get you to kind of fall in love with them and then start to pay them money. There are also people online that are catfishing that are cheating on their partners. They're looking for a playmate and then ghosting, right? When they engage you and you feel like you're really connecting with this person, then they just evaporate. Like you are thinking, did I say something wrong? Did I do something to offend them? And they're just gone. Like they're not responding to your text messages or your phone calls anymore.
00:25:25
Speaker
So, and I'm actually, I'm doing a free webinar, a Zoom webinar called how to survive the online dating jungle masterclass coming up in a couple of weeks. So look out for it. I'll give you that link. And I talk all about, you know, these behaviors that people are engaging in online to help people get equipped, right? To get, just step into that.
00:25:47
Speaker
suit of armor so that they can participate in online dating, but not get injured by it. Yeah, right. Right. Because I mean, it's just random people out in the world. You have to have tough skin because you don't know what you're really interacting with, right?
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah, and there's no accountability. That's the other issue, right? Years ago, it was that you met somebody through the church, or a neighbor introduced you to somebody, or a friend set you up on a blind date, right? There's accountability. The person's not going to want to be a total jerk towards you because it's going to reflect poorly on their friend.
00:26:24
Speaker
Right. But that doesn't exist with online dating anymore. That's not a thing. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. And some people have great experiences. People have found great love, right? But it's definitely a mixed bag as a lot of things are. So OK, going a little deeper here.
Evaluating & Improving Relationships
00:26:44
Speaker
People, right, they're in relationships, maybe, so we're talking a lot about dating and what to do to get started dating the myths and et cetera, but people are in a relationship, they're struggling. You were saying earlier that you can't find perfect, right? It's not realistic. But on the flip side of it, this question of like, I've been dating for a while, I've been in a relationship for a bit, or I've been for years,
00:27:07
Speaker
How do you know when it's not just a perfectionistic voice within you, but in fact, it's really time to leave? What are the signals that you're in a relationship, you may love the person, but it's become toxic, it's time to go? Yeah, that's a great question. Because when we're attached to somebody, it's really hard to extract oneself. When we're unhappy, we often see people staying in relationships longer than they should. My litmus test is usually
00:27:36
Speaker
where I think, what is the cost benefit ratio here? So if I'm spending more time arguing and bickering and feeling unhappy than I am feeling happy, so the cost of me engaging in this relationship is greater than the benefit, then I'm going to evaluate whether I want to stay. Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
And what if it's like the negativity is getting through things and it's a tough, how do you tell the difference between a tough patch and the tough patch has now become substantial and it's time to go? Some people do that for years. It's true. So if both people are working on the relationship and they're committed to the relationship, then it's worth seeing it through.
00:28:27
Speaker
Because relationships go in and out, right? Like you may be feeling really connected for a few months and you feel very much alive in the relationship and then you start to feel a little bit of a distancing and that is very normal. But, you know, both people during the distancing phase, both people have to be really committed and working on the relationship.
00:28:50
Speaker
communicating about what's happening, showing with actions that they're doing the work to make it better. It's oftentimes one person's carrying the load, which is where you got to go.
00:29:04
Speaker
You got to think, well, this may not be right. Yeah. Yeah. So if one person's doing most of the work and the other person is talking a lot but not taking action. Yeah. You don't see the action. You don't see the behaviors shifting. Yeah. And as far as getting a coach, getting help talking to somebody like yourself,
00:29:24
Speaker
Why do people wait until it's catastrophic, typically, before they engage somebody to help them out? Just because our culture really doesn't value outside opinions and relationships, what's your take on that? That's very typical, that people wait till it's too late. I have seen so many couples break up in my office because they come to my office to break up. They need help ending it. Whereas had they come in six months prior, we could have worked on it.
00:29:54
Speaker
But I think it happens because a lot of us stuff, right? Like we just, we want to avoid and stuff the reality. And we think somehow that if we stuff it away, that it'll somehow just go away, but that's not what happens. It, you become resentful and it just, the stuffing like just starts to bowl, like it just starts to overflow, right? You can't contain it anymore. And then there's a lot of acting out and.
00:30:20
Speaker
And it just, it becomes unbearable and then they end up in my office. So there's denial, right? And then there's also people who actively avoid and stuff, like brush things under the rug. Yeah. Yeah. And over time that just builds up and it becomes insurmountable, right? And it's like a last ditch effort to kind of go see somebody. But I mean, ideally, like what do you think? Should people come start, should they have a coach at the beginning? Should they be working with somebody throughout? Like what would be like the ideal if you were to, you know? Yeah.
00:30:49
Speaker
I think of it as like, you should always be working with a coach on and off in a relationship because when you're in it, there's a lot you can't see and a coach that is objective and direct and that has experience can help you see some things that you're blind to in the moment. They also can predict what, you know, might be coming down the pike. So you can be prepared for it.
00:31:12
Speaker
So I often tell my clients, you know, that you're going to have to come back in for a tune up. This isn't the last time I'm going to see you. So just keep, keep that in mind and reach out to me when it feels hard and you don't have to come regularly, you know, you can come for a few sessions.
00:31:27
Speaker
get some clarity and go back out there and work on it together. Yeah, there's a feeling that it's a failure if you're getting help, right? That love is supposed to prevail somehow and we love each other, so we're good, we're fine. And if we're talking to somebody else, what, we're not able to work it out as a couple. And that speaks that we're not, right? Like doing a good job together. It's like, where in life do you do that? I mean, most people get support in almost every area of their life.
00:31:55
Speaker
I think it's strange that we try to muscle through ourselves. Exactly. And it's unfortunate and it's getting better where people are realizing that actually going to therapy doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean you failed. So it is improving, but there are definitely, there's a hesitance around going in right when you start to feel things are getting, it's just, you're getting in, it's over your head and now would be a good time. People definitely still avoid it.
00:32:25
Speaker
So I want to just encourage people not to do that because I've never seen that be effective ever, not one time. Yeah. Yeah. And in truth, like, right, often with a different perspective or somebody outside of it who can shed some light, it can really save relationships.
00:32:41
Speaker
Absolutely. I have seen hundreds of people through the years actually come in and feel really hopeless about their situation and turn things around. And it does not take that long. If you wait years to come in and deal with it, think about it. It's going to take a while. You're going to need years to undo.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah, you mean undo the hurt and the right pain that has happened and kind of get back on the same page? To repair basically, to have reparation. Yes, it will take time. Nothing happens overnight when it comes to feelings and behaviors, emotions. It takes time.
00:33:20
Speaker
But I believe I'm a strong proponent of if you're in a relationship and there is still love between the two people and there's debt commitment to working on it, that there is no situation that can't be turned around for the positive. Oh, I love that. I love that.
00:33:36
Speaker
And talk to me about trust because one thing, this is just my own little personal private view that I've somehow made up in my own head, but I've always felt like, right, like people talk about love and relationships and I feel like love is a much more sturdy emotion, right? It's like you can kind of drop kick each other and do all sorts of things and then you're like, I still love them, right? Like even after people have broken up there, I still love the person, we're terrible together, we can't be together, but trust
00:34:02
Speaker
To me, it's a much more fragile emotion. It feels like when it starts to break, it's harder to put back together. What is your thought on trust when it comes to love relationships?
Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity
00:34:12
Speaker
I agree with you. I think that trust is more vulnerable. It's a vulnerable emotion. I think that when we break trust, you can build it back up, but it takes time and a concerted, like a clear effort.
00:34:32
Speaker
to repair it and even, you know, you see situations where there's been infidelity and the person still loves that ex ex partner, right? That cheated. They're not in love with them, right? But they love them, but they don't trust them, right? So the trust has been broken, but I've worked with plenty of couples where there was infidelity and the trust got built back up, but there's a way to go about doing that and it takes a lot of effort and time.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You just said something and I'm wondering if you actually have words for it because I've never heard anybody put words to it. It's fine if you're like, I don't know, but like you love somebody, but being in love with them, like how would you define really the difference? And when that shifts in you, what does that really mean? Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. It's so nuanced, right? But I think when you're in love with somebody, like you want to, you want to just like, you want to meld with them, right? Like you just want to be with, you want to become one. You want to be with them.
00:35:28
Speaker
every moment, you know, even they're like most irritating behaviors don't really irritate you so much. You have a lot of patience for them. And you just you're so in it, right? Like you're not really
00:35:43
Speaker
There's nowhere else you wanna be. And I'm thinking of like the limerence phase of a relationship, right? When you are the beginning of a relationship, when there's like, it's mostly infatuation and you don't yet see the darker parts of one's personality,
Difference Between Loving & Being in Love
00:36:00
Speaker
right? The less shiny, like the carbon, if you think of a diamond, like the carbon spots, right? Like you're not seeing that until later. So you're feeling really in love with that person.
00:36:12
Speaker
Right, right. You got to drip that crazy stuff out slowly. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I love somebody like you get to a place like there are plenty of relationships, right? Where
00:36:26
Speaker
People will say like, I love, this is my person that I love. I'm not in love with him anymore. I'm not in love with her anymore, but I stay in it because I love this person. I, we have a life together. Yeah. So I'm committed to this person. Yeah. But they're not in love anymore. Like that phase is like that stage for them is it has passed. Doesn't mean it can't come back.
00:36:46
Speaker
But I think sometimes people just sort of become complacent, right? They don't really want to put that much effort into bringing that back. How do you bring it back? What are some ways? Is it spicing it up? Is it the passion? That's one way. Yeah, that's one way. You've got to be pretty creative. Spicing it up, changing the environment where you're engaging in an activity or something that is new that both of you can do together and succeed at together.
00:37:13
Speaker
you know, creating new experiences because when you're in a long-term relationship, right? You're like, you have to create content, like new things to talk about, new experiences to share. Otherwise you're sort of going in a, like at a certain point, you know everything about that person. Like I was married 12 years and I remember thinking, wow, like there would be moments where I'm like, I've heard this story probably a hundred times.
00:37:41
Speaker
And because I use my own life experiences to help inform my work with clients, I would think, okay, so here I am, like, what am I going to do with this, right? This feeling of like, I'm kind of zoning out right now, because I've heard this story so many times, I can predict what's going to come out of her mouth next.
00:38:00
Speaker
Or they like have the favorite joke at a dinner party and you're like trying to pretend to laugh because it's new to the new couple that you're meeting. But you're like, oh my God, can they please get new material? Actually, I was in a 17 year relationship. I was like, can you get a new joke? Because I can't. Totally. And it's hard to laugh and be natural about it because you've heard it so many times. So you know what I'm talking about. Oh, boy. You kind of have to create new experiences to be able to bond over
00:38:27
Speaker
and support one another in and that sort of thing. I do believe if both, like I said, both people in the relationship are really working on it and they want it, they can create that in love feeling again at different points in the relationship but it's not going to be consistent throughout the whole relationship. I have not seen that. I see it kind of ebb and flow.
00:38:48
Speaker
And I see relationships many where people have a lot of love for one another and they're not in love and they're happy. So this question of working on
Maintaining Relationship Balance
00:38:56
Speaker
it, right? Like there's working on things and then there's working on it where it starts feeling like work, right? And it's just overwhelming. And what's like a healthy level of working on things? If you're motivated to work on it, I've heard you say a couple of times since we've been on, right? Like two people are motivated who still love each other. It's worth it.
00:39:13
Speaker
but what if the work is draining and tiring but you're still motivated? What point is it? Are you spinning your wheels maybe or what's going on there? That's a good question. It's a ratio, right? Again, cost-benefit ratio. You want to be working on things but you don't want to be spending the majority of your time together processing, working on a relationship. You want to be able to enjoy one another's company and not always be talking about
00:39:43
Speaker
you know, difficult dynamics in the relationship. So you sort of have to carve out specific time to work on the relationship. And, you know, that may be really, I think of it as like 75, if you think about a pie, right, or a percentage, 75% of your time is spent outside of the relationship. And that includes like your own friendships, your own family relationships, your career,
00:40:12
Speaker
you know, your exercise, your self care, your fitness, right? That takes up 75%. And then, and then this 25 is your relationship. So of that 25%, then maybe we're talking about 5%, right? So 20% is actually engaging in some like, you know, quality time every evening together, and then, you know, on the weekends, some time together, and then you have your 5% by where to break it down, focusing on the relationship.
00:40:40
Speaker
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. I mean, and you know, some people out there would argue like, there is no work in a relationship, just deny the whole thing and ignore it. But that that's just a recipe for death, right? I mean, just Yeah, I mean, that's not going to work. I can tell you right now, the relationship is going to fail. And I've like started saying this, but there's nothing on the entire planet that doesn't take some effort and work like there. There's just nothing. So why would you think just because you're in love with somebody, it's got its own life force, right? Everything takes a certain amount of work.
00:41:09
Speaker
I think it's because it's hard. It's the hardest work that you're going to do, right? Is working on oneself and then working on intimate relationships with others. It's the hardest work in this life that you're going to do. And why is that? Because it's so personal and it's just hard to see. You know, I think that we all come with a different background, like childhood, you know, attachments, you know, the way that we were born, what kind of resiliency we have, what kind of temperament. There's so many layers, right? It's complicated.
00:41:38
Speaker
Two people are coming together that have very different backgrounds, you know, that were raised by different parents that have had different kinds of attachment and different temperaments. Right. So they come together and it's sometimes we can't see eye to eye. Like we just, we can't relate to one another because it's not our experience. So now we're trying to be understanding and compassionate and empathetic, but we don't, we don't relate.
00:42:03
Speaker
So it's just, you know, that famous book, men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Yeah. Like it's just that idea where you're just like, that book was all about like trying to decode the differences between a male brain and a female brain and relationships. Yeah.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah. And that if you just go a step further, male, female, female, female, male, male, it's like we just think so differently. We perceive the world so differently and we don't even know how we perceive it for ourselves, right? Most of us don't even have the deepest awareness of ourselves. So then you're trying to understand somebody else and how these two perceptions are different and it just becomes overwhelming really quickly. Exactly. So it's just like interpersonal relationships and intimate relationships are complicated.
00:42:48
Speaker
And it's just, it's not simple. And we, I mean, really the field of psychology is like a hundred years old. I mean, we're just scratching the surface. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much we don't know. Yeah, absolutely.
Living Authentically & Mindfully
00:43:02
Speaker
So I ask everybody who comes on the show, what does an authentic life mean to you? Being true to oneself. Like I,
00:43:11
Speaker
Like every day I try to be my best self. So that's an authentic life to me. Like I try to do good in the world. I try, you know, if I'm going to leave a footprint in this short stint at life that I've been given, the gift I've been given of life, I want to leave like a footprint of care and mindfulness and love, even to people that I don't even know. Like I just love to connect with people and I want people to feel that I care.
00:43:38
Speaker
Right? So that for me is living an authentic life, being present and mindful of myself, my actions, how I impact other people. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And what do you do? Do you have daily practices, anything you could share with the audience to stay in an authentic place? Because the world's busy and overwhelming, right? And it's sometimes hard to stay connected to that place. Totally. And it's a struggle every day for me. I have to be consciously thinking about how I'm going to approach it.
00:44:07
Speaker
Every day I work out two hours a day. I'm a big crossfitter. I do Olympic lifting and crossfit. I swim. So every day that I do some form of fitness about two hours a day, and that's sacred for me. No matter who I'm dating, no matter what's going on, there has to be a significant reason for me to miss my workout in a day. I need it. It fills my soul.
00:44:30
Speaker
And then I eat clean. I try to really eat clean. I love eating out. I love food. And I do the best that I can to try to eat clean. And I don't really drink much alcohol and no drugs or anything like that. I live a clean life for the most part.
00:44:47
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for coming on the show. So many fun, interesting ideas. And for anybody out there that's interested in hearing more, finding out more about your services, finding you, where can they find you? So they can go to littlegaybook.com. You can always email me directly. It's Dr. Frankie with an I.E. at littlegaybook.com. I should actually announce this. It's very exciting. I am launching a straight division of matchmaking, and that's going to be Little Black Book.
00:45:15
Speaker
It's similar to little gay book, right? Littleblackbookmatchmaking.com. So that site will be live soon. So yeah, I answer my phone. I respond to email still myself and feel free to reach out to me. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. I really loved our conversation. Same here. Thank you for having me.