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B. Jeffery Madoff: Creative Careers: How to Make a Living with Your Ideas
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B. Jeffrey Madoff is a director, photographer, writer, and professor in New York City. He joins us to talk about his new book Creative Careers, How to Make Living with Your Ideas.
He is the founder and CEO of Madoff Productions, a film production company that creates award-winning branded content. Madoff is a sought after speaker and has lectured at NYU Steinhardt, F.I.T., Google Next, Wharton School, NC State & SXSW in Brazil, Verizon and Barclay’s RISE. In addition to his film and public speaking engagements, Madoff's articles are widely distributed and have appeared online in Huffington Post and other major publications. He has written and is the Executive Producer of a play about Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Legend Lloyd Price which premiers in May of 2021 at People’s Light Theater.
Madoff has been a featured speaker at Wharton School, NYU Steinhardt, North Carolina State, SXSW Brazil, Vision Summit, Rise: Barclay's Bank Accelerator, XRB Labs, Mastermind Group, Google Next and many others.
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Transcript
Introduction of Jeffrey Madoff
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to this week's episode of The Art of Authenticity. I'm Laura Coe, your host, and thank you guys so much for tuning in today. I've got such a great treat for you. It's such a pleasure to have Jeffrey Madoff here. He is a founder of Madoff Productions in New York City.
00:00:42
Speaker
And he's basically considers himself a storyteller, right? And an interviewer, he has helped. Ready for this? Ralph Lauren, Victoria's Secret. He's worked for the Harvard School of Public Health. He has created his own.
00:00:57
Speaker
a theater production that's coming out in New York City next week. He's also a professor at Parson School for Design.
Jeffrey Madoff's Career Insights
00:01:04
Speaker
He has created an idea called Creativity, Making a Living with Your Ideas. Every week he has a conversations with guests on a wide variety of subjects, from artists to entrepreneurs, thinking about what it means to make a living with your ideas. And that is the new book, Creative Careers, Making a Living with Your Ideas. We talk about the book, the ideas within the book,
00:01:25
Speaker
And what I'm excited for you guys to hear him speak on is all the topics that we talk about, right? What does it mean to have success? What does it mean to take your creative sense of self and bring that into the world? What does it mean to tell a story? How do you develop a brand? What is the challenge when you're trying to be an entrepreneur?
00:01:49
Speaker
We hit on everything from a business perspective, but also we go deep into what that means personally because in the end of the day, it's all one and the same.
Influences and Storytelling Approach
00:01:59
Speaker
Thank you guys so much for tuning in. If you want to check out more about Jeff, you can check him out at acreativecareer.com. And as always, everything will be posted on my website. Hope you love today's show. Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:02:14
Speaker
Welcome to this week's episode of The Art of Authenticity. I'm Laura Ko, and today we have Jeffrey Madoff here. Thank you so much for joining us all the way from New York. How are you today? I'm good, and thank you for having me on.
00:02:27
Speaker
I'm excited. For those of you who haven't checked out his work, Creative Careers Making a Living with Your Ideas, he is a professor in New York City and the founder of Madoff Productions. And it's a production company that works with
00:02:46
Speaker
I mean, innumerable brands. I could start to list them, but I don't even know where to start or end. But I actually want to move it over to you and let you tell the story. I want to get into what brands mean and your experience of success and so many great things that I know our audience will enjoy hearing about and creativity and how that works for entrepreneurship. But if you could take us back first and tell us a little bit about
Brand Storytelling Essentials
00:03:17
Speaker
Your history your story how you came into this work this this Interest in creative careers like what what what brought you here if you don't mind us Hearing a little bit of the backstory first Let me bring my couch up so that I can lay down and we can really go back You know I my parents always encouraged learning
00:03:46
Speaker
always encouraged asking questions. And so I think that I had that bounce from when I was quite young. I realized that I had a lot more questions than answers. And I think that that's the case with most people. And I remember saying to my dad, I was about 12 and I said to him, you know, dad, it seems to me
00:04:14
Speaker
that adults are nothing more than screwed up older kids. And he laughed and said, you're right. And I didn't grow up with a wall between myself and adults. So I was friends with my parents' friends, even as I got older and they were older.
00:04:42
Speaker
I've always valued and learned to value the exchange of good ideas and robust discussion. You don't always have to agree, but you do have to be respectful. And so I grew up with that. And I remember an incident in my book, actually, with my next door neighbor. We were about 11 or 12 and he had gotten a telescope.
00:05:10
Speaker
And uh, it was set up in the backyard and our backyards abutted and he said look do you see orion? No, he said no look don't don't you see orion said no, I see a bunch of stars It's in the look at there's the four corners You can see it and then the sword See a bunch of stars and he was getting progressively more upset with me
00:05:36
Speaker
The less I refuse to see the more I refuse to see orion. Yeah, and he said what do you mean? You can't see orion I said well, I see a bunch of stars that people have agreed is orion But it's not intrinsically orion It's just that we feel compelled To order things and have them make sense That really pissed them off
00:06:03
Speaker
And that was actually the last time he ever let me look through his telescope. But that story though is really, it's true and it's indicative of kind of how I look at things. I always kind of question them and I'm interested in kind of moving around them and don't necessarily accept things on face value. And I can think that can help you.
00:06:26
Speaker
get to a discovery point that you might not get to if you accepted everything. Because if you accept everything, what's there to discover? People are telling you the truth and there's nothing left for you to discover. When you realize that most people don't know the truth and we're all on this process of discovery, which is called life, it's kind of more fun and more of an adventure too. Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:50
Speaker
I mean, I think the question of being flexible and open to the world being not exactly what people tell us and your parents being open to that is so important in our upbringing. Because if we don't have that basic receptivity to who we are when we're young, it takes a long time, I think, for many of us to get back to our truth and our center
00:07:20
Speaker
what maybe makes us happy instead of what the world thinks should make us happy and particularly I think for creatives. Do you think that that is a little bit more complicated for people who are creative and don't necessarily fit in one of the more traditional walks of life?
00:07:42
Speaker
No, I don't. I think it's complicated for everybody. And I think it's equally complicated for everybody. But it may be that some people who have a particular bent are more apt to question.
00:07:57
Speaker
as opposed to just accept. But I think that discovering who you are, first of all, a lot of people never do. That's just the nature of life. They just don't. Some people are on that eternal quest and then you die. So I don't think that it's unique to creatives. I think that that journey of self-discovery
00:08:27
Speaker
if that's one's goal is as complicated for a creative as it is for somebody else. I think the difference is if you are a creative, you may be experiencing the world through your work and that gives you a different kind of lens that you look at not only the world through, but yourself through. And I think everybody struggles with issues of identity, of purpose, of all of those things.
00:08:54
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the point. I think you said more articulately than I have, but placing that into your work, knowing how to take your perspective and place it into a job when it's not so defined by culture, right? When it's something that you're trying to figure out, who am I and where can I place it? And I know I'm not a doctor. I know I'm not a lawyer. I know I'm not a nurse, right? These things that are pretty well laid out by culture,
Developing Brand Identity
00:09:24
Speaker
I think it can be a little more challenging to find the niche. How did you end up in brand content? How did your path lead you there? It's an interesting question because my parents were retailers. I grew up in Akron, Ohio. At that time, the rubber capital of the world, which explains my bounciness.
00:09:51
Speaker
Their stores had a reputation. And this was long before. I'm looking back now because I didn't have this insight when I was a kid. But later in life, it informed my insights. So they had a children's store called Kitty Bazaar. And it was for kids. And what they did is decorate it.
00:10:18
Speaker
so that kids would enjoy being in there, which was highly unusual for the times. So the walls were all painted in bright colors, and there was stuff from Alice in Wonderland and all kinds of different things in there, and they made it playful. And it was in a very rough way or primitive way, but for its time, a more immersive experience than most stores were, which just had cases in racks and shelves.
00:10:45
Speaker
So, when I look back on things, I recognize where I came from, the things that I was exposed to. So the notion of a brand as I got older and transitioned into this business
00:11:02
Speaker
became clear to me because all of those various neural firings eventually formed the constellation that I could recognize, unlike Orion, that I could recognize what a brand was and what were the different points that made a brand relevant and significant. Yeah. Yeah. I was really struck in your book by this one line. You said a brand is a story well told.
00:11:31
Speaker
And for some reason, that just sort of stopped me in my tracks, right? And then you go on to describe it, but maybe you could share with the audience what you mean by that, what you mean by a story well told and how you...
00:11:47
Speaker
I know everybody out there who's got a business or just got a brand or anything around it. We're all told about an elevator pitch. We're all told we need to get our details clear on how do we describe ourselves. But there was something about a brand being a story well told that really resonated really deeply with me. How do you mean that? So are we seen or is this just audio? We're seen. Okay. The podcast will be just audio, but there will be a clip out there for people.
00:12:17
Speaker
Okay. And so I'm going to show you a quick motion. Okay. All right. And I want to make sure I'm in frame and it's backwards. So this is a little tricky, but tell
Brand Consistency and Passion
00:12:27
Speaker
me what brand this is.
00:12:31
Speaker
the Nike swoosh. Yeah. Right. Okay. So I've done that in front of an audience of 2,500 people. And I say, I want you, all it wants to say what this is as soon as you recognize it. And like in church, everybody says Nike together. Uh-huh.
00:12:57
Speaker
Then I say, think about how powerful that brand is that I can make that one finger swoosh motion and everybody knows what it is. And what's their slogan? Just do it. Okay. Again, like reading from the hymnal. Everybody knows. So a good brand becomes like a religion.
00:13:23
Speaker
You know, there are symbols be it the Star of David in our case or if it's a crucifix, you know There is a symbol, you know what that symbol stands for. There's a certain there's a certain Consistency
00:13:38
Speaker
wherever you go. Look at the McDonald arches. Again, this is a symbol just like the crucifix is, just like the sluice is. You are called to that because there's a familiarity that happens and you know what it is. I look back at religion as really being the template for a brand. How do you get a bunch of people to unite around a certain symbol?
00:14:08
Speaker
a certain story and the promise of any good brand, be it a product or a service, is just like the end of a children's story or just like the end of the Bible. The end of the children's story is, and they lived happily ever after, that somehow your life is better and improved. Yeah. And if you go back to the beginning in the Bible, it says, in the beginning.
00:14:35
Speaker
If you look at a children's story, the beginning is once upon a time. Again, it sets up a suspension of disbelief. And once upon a time is an iteration of in the beginning.
00:14:49
Speaker
It's the same thing. Interesting. So it's really kind of cool to look at that and break it down and really understand because that's how you can understand what the power of a really good brand is. And a lot of people confuse a brand with advertising.
00:15:07
Speaker
That's branding. That's how you get the name out there. But the brand itself, that's why there aren't a lot of really successful brands. But when you get it right, be it Walt Disney or Nike or Ralph Lauren, there is a resonance that lasts literally for decades.
00:15:30
Speaker
because it means something to people. It's not just a name they're familiar with. Just because they're familiar with it doesn't make it a brand. And for people who are starting off or are iterating through early versions, do you have suggestions on how to tell that story effectively to create the symbol that helps define what it is that you're excited about? There's a lot of stuff out there, but I'm really curious what your take on that is.
00:16:01
Speaker
To me, the symbol of secondary primary is what's the story? What is the story that I want to tell? And more importantly than what is why do you want to tell it? Who cares? You know, so what's the story that you're going to tell that's going to make me care? It's going to establish an emotional link between us.
00:16:29
Speaker
great brands establish that emotional link. And so the question is first, why are you telling me this? Why should I know this? Why is it worth my time? What's important about it? And then it becomes about what am I going to tell you?
00:16:48
Speaker
So you can go through any brand and start breaking that down. And it's a fascinating exercise because it's just like taking a lit class in college. What's the author's intent? What are the characters that we see?
00:17:07
Speaker
and how are they acting out? What are the given circumstances? And so you create a world because a brand is a world and you create that world. And so it's an iterative process and it takes a long. There's a lot of questions you have to ask yourself in order to do it effectively.
00:17:27
Speaker
And do you have a couple key questions that people who are struggling to get their stories? I had a company for 15 years, many of you guys know that, and I sold it and I did the operations side and my brother was responsible for this piece, right? He would tell the story and go raise money and get out in the street.
Defining Business and Personal Success
00:17:46
Speaker
And I would spend the whole day in meetings and he'd walk by and he'd be like, do you like the word decision to sport or right? I was like, is that all you're doing today? Like, but then I realized later how important it was that we were speaking a coherent language internally, that that met the product, that that met to the audience, that all these things tied together. And I believe it was a huge part of our success that not only did we, um,
00:18:14
Speaker
Did he work so hard on fine-tuning that and understanding it for himself so he could connect to people in the world? That also connected to our product, but then we would iterate as the marketplace would shift. We would ever so slightly shift to make sure that we were speaking the language properly and communicating our intention and our goals succinctly in a way people could hear.
00:18:41
Speaker
How doing that right is it is it really a gift for some people is it just an endless iteration like what what could people do to um, uh fine tune or Get that story told in a way that connects So there's a few things first i'll do a shameless plug because in my book, uh Since your question has arisen, you know many times when I when I give talks about it
00:19:11
Speaker
There's a workbook, a series of questions at the end of each of the chapters and it takes you through those. But the primary question is why are you doing this? I think that you have to discover that first because one of the big mistakes that people make when they're starting a business and when they're trying to define their brand is that they stay too insular.
00:19:37
Speaker
And what they don't understand is somebody other than you has to understand this and fall in love with it. And a lot of people fall in love with their own thing. Yes. But it doesn't communicate. Yes. And you have to realize with that product with what you're doing, it has to communicate itself.
00:20:00
Speaker
So your brand, your marketing, your advertising, your social media, wherever the eyes of the consumer are on it, they need to understand what your mission is, which means you have to understand. And you also have to get some feedback from people to make sure that your intent in terms of the message you're putting out there is actually taken in and understood. And that's really important. And a lot of people skip that step.
00:20:29
Speaker
And it's just that they're so excited about their own idea, but they haven't really vetted that idea or have a proof of concept that's sufficient enough to know that, yeah, there's other people interested in this too. Yeah. Yeah. And so the, why am I doing it factor? Um, why do you feel like that's the, the key question to ask yourself? Because that's your compass, you know, and that compass is really important in terms of staying
00:20:58
Speaker
true to the direction you're going. A good example is Ralph Lauren who I worked with for over 30 years. I started with him when I was five years old. Thank you. I said to him at one point, I was doing his lifetime achievement. I said to him, how have you been able to keep your fingers on the pulse of the consumer?
00:21:28
Speaker
for so many decades, so successful. And he said, well, I know what the consumer wants because I am the consumer. And he was his own compass. And what he discovered when he started his business is his muse were classic movies of the 30s and 40s and people like Gary Cooper and Cary Grant.
00:21:57
Speaker
uh and Audrey Hepburn Catherine Hepburn and uh, Grace Kelly and these stars and like He wanted to wear suits like that with the peach lapels and looking really cool. He couldn't find them And he thought I can't be the only person that thinks those are cool Yeah, you know and so what he started to do as a result of his own desire
00:22:24
Speaker
Because why? Because he wanted to dress that way. Why? Because he had a fantasy about that world that he wanted to live through that lens and express himself through his clothing. So in seeing those movies and seeing how those movie stars dress, that became his why because he wanted to be part of that world.
00:22:47
Speaker
asking why is a pretty fundamental question.
Challenges of Entrepreneurship: Myths and Reality
00:22:50
Speaker
There's no grand insight there, but you need to know it simply because if you start a business, it's going to be tough. It's really easy to start harder to build it and even harder to sustain. Yeah. So if you don't have a good compelling reason as to why you're doing, then you're not going to be able to muster the perseverance it takes.
00:23:16
Speaker
to be successful in your business. And you also have to be realistic to understand that it's going to be hard. You're going to hit a lot of bumps. And if you choose the route of being an entrepreneur, it's not easy. Yeah, no, it's not. And people all want it, but it's very, very hard. And it's, to your point,
00:23:37
Speaker
It's just a bumpy road. You think you've gotten to the next level and then there's a whole other hill that you're about to climb each time you sort of feel like maybe you've come to the other side, but you bring up an important second question or conversation that I want to have which is around this idea of success because entrepreneurship, creating business brands, we have such a singular view of success. It's like
00:24:07
Speaker
very large, full scale brands, not everybody's going to get there. And so I think this question, and we've talked about it a lot on the show about defining success. And I know this is something that you've given a lot of thought to. There's no single way to define success. And yet, I think everybody tries to fit themselves into a one size fit all box of success. But how do you define success?
00:24:35
Speaker
So there's, you know, two kinds of success to me. When you're talking about success in business for me, success is being able to say no without catastrophic financial circumstances. I like that. You know, and what I mean by that is I don't want to take every job that comes along. Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
And sometimes when times are difficult and times are challenging and you've got payroll and you've got rent and all the other overhead that goes along with owning a business, you do things you don't want to do. And I'm not talking about ethically. I don't think you ever should cross that line of integrity, but I also understand how desperation can cause one to do that. On certain times can cause one to do that. Because also,
00:25:30
Speaker
concurrent with entrepreneurship is survival. And survival isn't always pretty. It can be rough. So my definition of success is simply that I can say no, and it doesn't hurt me financially.
00:25:50
Speaker
I love that. I think so much of entrepreneurship is freedom, at least for myself and many people I've interviewed. You have the opportunity to do what you feel motivated, inspired, and love to do. You have freedom in your life to set up your day and your time, even though you end up working
00:26:11
Speaker
really, really hard. That's what I was just going to say. And how many hours do you work a week, right? Yeah, way more than it's on your mind 24 seven, right? It's right. You're never not working on some level. But I do think that definition is really fun because
00:26:28
Speaker
When you hit a certain level of success, you have the opportunity to really fine tune where you spend your time and focus in on the things that you love more and you don't have to do the things you don't. I remember there was this phase of our company where I was taking off hats. At the beginning, you do everything. Then at some point, I was like, oh, thank God we have an accountant. I don't have to ever do that again. I was taking off all the hats until I landed on the
00:26:53
Speaker
the one or two things that I feel most organized towards. I think I'm the best at and I enjoy most, right? And I thought that was such a freedom to finally be able to not do the things I didn't want to.
Creativity and Entrepreneurship
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah. And then success on a personal level. Do you have a different view, business versus personal? Yeah, I do. Success on a personal level to me has everything to do
00:27:23
Speaker
with the quality of the relationships you maintain through your life. And that's with your family and that's with your closest friends. And for me, there is really no distinction between my closest friends and my family. I'm very fortunate and it takes work by the way, but I'm very fortunate that, you know, my,
00:27:51
Speaker
closest friends are friends that I've had my whole life. I'm in touch with people that I grew up with and in regular touch with them. My closest friend, it was funny, I put together a Zoom reunion when the quarantine started. I lived on Sunnyside Avenue and perpendicular was Amita Avenue. And when I was growing up,
00:28:19
Speaker
our neighborhood was like the little rascals. You know, there was just all these kids and we could always go out and play. So I put together a reunion and I got 11 of us from the neighborhood together on a Zoom call. Most of them had not seen each other for 50 years. Oh, wow. And it was not only a total blast and so much fun and lasted like three or four hours. It was really, really kind of cool.
00:28:50
Speaker
Uh, my one of my closest friends and we've been best friends since third grade Was the most recent friend on that call That's beautiful, yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think so too so that's what success is to me on a personal level is is the maintaining those important relationships with your family with your friends and
00:29:18
Speaker
and maintaining that integrity and trying not always succeeding, but trying to keep those nourish and current all the time. And it doesn't mean by the way, I'm successful at that all the time, but that's what I try to do.
00:29:34
Speaker
But I love how you define both of them as taking work and more of it than you think because I do find at least really in the last few years, especially entrepreneurship has been redefined as, you know, I'll get streams of revenue that are going so that I don't have to work and I can work.
00:29:51
Speaker
I sit at a beach all day long and a lot of people want an ease in relationships and no work. And I haven't found that to be true in my life. I think everything I've cared about takes a certain amount of work, but in that work is a joy because it's what I care about. And I don't see it as work in the way of my beach time, right? So I love that you define it that way. Yeah.
00:30:18
Speaker
If you are looking for a simple way That simple way is not starting your own business You know, uh, I mean I guess the best way if you measure it Financially is be born into a rich family, you know, I guess that can help you out Uh, you know with money you're either born into it You earn it or you steal it You know, and that's kind of how money comes and earning it's the hardest
00:30:48
Speaker
You know, uh, but you know I my Metric has never been that i've been fortunate enough that i've always been able To make a living with my ideas whether I was a fashion designer, which is my first career a filmmaker a teacher Uh a playwright, you know i've always found ways to make money doing what i'm doing or some that are in the embryonic stage
00:31:16
Speaker
that I haven't made money at yet, but it seems like it will if I put in the work. But the biggest myth of entrepreneurship is that I'm going to have all this free time. I'm in control of my time. No, you're not. And it's just bullshit.
00:31:35
Speaker
I know it's, you're not, you're not, I mean, the system becomes larger than you and it, you have to answer to it. And unfortunately, even though it's yours, it's a 24 hours, seven days, you know, I mean, you've got a, you're,
00:31:53
Speaker
Everything ends with you in the end of the day. You're the one who has to make all these decisions. If you're not really focused and paying attention, in my experience, it's not going to come together. It really does require absolute commitment at a sole level. Yeah. To me, it's being realistic with your expectations. I wouldn't have it any other way if you said to me, Jeff, you've got two choices.
00:32:23
Speaker
One choice is you stay on this narrow path You will make very good money But you can't pursue writing teaching playwriting doing these different things that i'm doing Uh, you can't do those things Uh, if you do those things you're going to be on a roller coaster and I can't tell you how that's going to end up I'm the type of person that i'm going to choose the roller coaster Because having that defined path just is not interesting
00:32:54
Speaker
100%. Yep. And I would interview people at our job and I would say, look, if you want everything to go the same way Monday through Friday, don't work here.
00:33:04
Speaker
It's not that we were unstable. It's just I'd wake up on a Monday and I'd be like, you know what we should do? And we would go in that direction and the company would take hits and go up and down. And it's not a life of consistency. And if you're looking for that, which I would rather
00:33:26
Speaker
I would rather just do about anything than wake up and it's the same experience over and over, but yeah, it's for a certain person. So when you talk about creative careers, I think at least, and many people out there would think, you know, they sort of think the arts in particular, and you really align the idea of creative careers to be entrepreneurship. How do you link creativity and creative careers to entrepreneurship? So I think first we have to define
00:33:55
Speaker
What does it mean to be creative? Yeah and you know to me Being creative is having a compelling need to bring about change So That could be a painting that could be a book that could be a play or a film or a dance or a sculpture It could be a new idea for a business uh, and I think that
00:34:26
Speaker
Entrepreneurship is starting with nothing but an idea just like every other creative pursuit and somehow bringing that to life. Creativity to me is starting with an idea and bringing that idea to fruition.
Fostering Creativity and Collaboration
00:34:50
Speaker
You could be an accountant. Many people in Hollywood say that
00:34:56
Speaker
accounting is the most creative part of the movie business. And you come up with a new way of accounting that minimizes certain expenses, maximizes certain benefits, and you have this new system of accounting. And that new system of accounting puts you in very high demand in a field that you like. And that's creative, not a creative pursuit that I would want, but that is.
00:35:25
Speaker
And maybe that creative idea of doing your taxes could be easier. It wouldn't be a drag. All you have to do is go to H&R Block. And all of a sudden, you've outsourced an activity that people were doing and they built a huge business
00:35:44
Speaker
I would argue that it is a creative business because it started with nothing but an idea, a realization that there was a problem that could be solved through innovative business thinking. And they created something that is quite substantial. So I don't draw the distinction. Where I draw the distinction in terms of creativity is what I'm interested in.
00:36:09
Speaker
But I am not somebody that says that's not creative. I think that anything can be It just depends on how you apply yourself and what your vision is Interesting yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I mean, I think people very narrowly think of creativity as being Artistic right so like there's a bias towards that view of it well, I think that that's that's true and I think that most people
00:36:41
Speaker
the creativity is kind of pounded out of them when they're kids. And what happens is that that creative expression, all of a sudden you're expected to follow orders, follow direction, not explore, because then you become a disciplinary problem. And so when I was a kid at King's school, and I remember in like fourth grade, Mrs. Turney, I don't think you knew her,
00:37:10
Speaker
She came in with the Robin's egg, blue smock and her art cart. And I always drew since I was a little kid. And so I was drawing all this stuff, pretty detailed drawings that were fun and kids like getting them, my classmates, and I love doing them. And so she had us doing crayon resist, which is you got the wax crayons and then you put watercolor over it and so the paint doesn't hold where the crayons are.
00:37:40
Speaker
Inevitably, it looked like crap. Okay, but that was like the exercise that she had learned for fourth graders to do an art class I wanted to do my drawing and she said uh No, you'd have to do crayon resist or you can sit there with your hands folded young man And I decided to sit there with my hands folded because I didn't want to do that stupid assignment You know and I had teachers that either really liked me or really didn't like me
00:38:09
Speaker
Uh-huh, but fortunately I had parents that encouraged and supported me Yeah, and so I think that what happens is fear of rejection fear of being humiliated fear of criticism all of those things keeps people from expressing what they would like to express because they're afraid and so by the time that they even get to high school or college It's been beaten out of
00:38:38
Speaker
And I think that's unfortunate because I think that once you can accept that anything can be creative and actually in terms of that, it fosters great potential collaborations, whether it's a business collaboration, a creative collaboration that leads to business. If your mind is open, the possibilities are much greater than if you have tunnel vision.
Overcoming Fears and Doubts
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, and those inner narratives that tell us we're not worthy or we have the inner critic or we judge ourselves. It's hard to get started. It's hard to get past the fears and the doubts and stay motivated when things get difficult. If we don't have that intrinsic connection to that creative deep self and what's true for us and our excitement to bring that to the world that I agree with you is sadly
00:39:35
Speaker
taken away from us from parents and the education systems. I have a lot of ideas on that one, but what do you feel are ways that people can overcome those fears and the doubt and stay motivated and push through when they maybe didn't have the upbringing you had or maybe the parents that were as supportive? So one of the most common fears that people have
00:40:05
Speaker
Is speaking in front of others That's we all get you know looked at by our friends and and teased the whole time in school, right? Uh, so what I do the first day of class is, you know, I will say to the students so how many of you are Reluctant to speak out in class and a bunch of them raise their hands And so I say how many of you are really afraid?
00:40:35
Speaker
still there's a number of them that raise their hand now the whole purpose of my class is to help the students find their voice and to get them robustly engaging in discussions so uh i'll ask one of them to stand up and i'll say come on over here and so we're the focus is off the class it's on them by the class so what is it about that makes it scary to you well i don't know how i'm going to be accepted
00:41:05
Speaker
Or, you know, I don't feel like what I have to say is worth saying. I said, well, I mean, I think it is. I want to hear from you because that's information for me and I can learn and maybe teach better if I understand why people were working to talk. So that starts a certain dialogue. And then after about two minutes, three minutes of back and forth and all of that. So what just happened to you? And she said, what do you mean? I said, I mean, did you have a heart attack?
00:41:34
Speaker
You know, did you die? You know, was it painful? No. I said, well, you just spoke in front of a group of 60 people and you survived. So think about that. Think about the conversation we just had and think about that whenever you're hesitant to raise your hand in class. And by the way, I don't wait for the students to raise their hand. I will just ask them, what do you think? I haven't heard from you. What are you thinking?
00:42:01
Speaker
Because I want them engaged in the dialogue and I want them to find out and if you do something often enough and you find out that You're not really at risk the class is a safe space express yourself It gets better for everybody because everybody feels included. And so having a diversity of opinion Is actually then fun So that's what I try to do. Yeah have people try it and realize I mean it's it's
00:42:27
Speaker
It's so amazing what the brain can do to us, but it literally gives us the information as if we're not going to survive the experience. When I first started my career, when I switched from entrepreneurship to writing and I started a blog, I was sitting there with my first blog and MailChimp has this
00:42:48
Speaker
animation where they have a hand of a monkey pushing a red button when you're about to send it and sweat pouring. And I was like, why? Why would they show that to me? And I felt like literally that that same feeling like I'm going to push this and I'm going to start to sweat. And I don't know if I'll survive like this, this one page of information
00:43:09
Speaker
putting that out into the world, your brain tries to signal you that the rejection or failure or not enough feelings, right? You're not going to live to the other side of anyways, push the button. Right. And it's like, it's a blog. I'm fine. I'm safe. Right. It's, it's, it's incredible how, uh, how much stress we can create when we're not really, um, in a place where there's anything to truly fear.
Managing Fear Responses
00:43:36
Speaker
Except that is and by the way you pick up that fan sound no. Oh good. Okay, uh So that that's a That's a great example of something sort of simple to do when you get that image of the of the gorilla pushing the button
00:43:54
Speaker
But the reality is there's a reason we're programmed like that. And we're programmed like that from the early beginnings of humans because you never knew what was around the corner that would kill you. So the perception of constant risk was justified.
00:44:15
Speaker
Yep, because you know, you could turn that corner and fall off the edge of the cliff You could turn that corner and a saber-toothed tiger took you out Right, you know or whatever. I mean the point is that we didn't know anything everything was risky and so that fear response Is very much a part of who we are as humans and so it's understandable The important thing is to not let it rule you
00:44:45
Speaker
Absolutely and sometimes it's really valuable right that little feeling that you get like You know, I live in the city walking down the street and you hear you you've had that little sense something's off right and it causes you to look around or um, you're you know, you you look up and split second I was walking into the street and a bus was in fact going by like that little hypersensitivity can be your best friend when needed but yes exactly not letting it um
00:45:12
Speaker
Run the decisions where you are in fact safe and it wants to tell you you know somebody I heard one say it's like you're overprotective bodyguard, right? Thanks. I'm good. I don't need you. I've got this Well, I want to tell you and everybody listening I
00:45:30
Speaker
I literally felt every section of your book I related to, I agree with everything I experienced in business. I was like, yes, that is 100% accurate. I think there's so much value in what you're offering to people.
00:45:49
Speaker
digestible and relatable and you have so many guests who come from your Your interviews to help also give their different views which you know There's a similar theme to what everybody is saying but hearing it through different voices is really really wonderful. So thank you for that and I Ask everybody who comes on the show. So I want to ask you
00:46:13
Speaker
What? You've thought about success you've thought about building a life that's important and meaningful to you. What does an authentic life mean to you? Uh an authentic life to me is uh This kind of smoky phrase which is being true to yourself Uh, and you know what is being true to yourself? Yeah, I think doing things that
00:46:42
Speaker
make you feel good about who you are And that you want to share those things with other people so to me that authenticity is a spirit of sharing and communication and uh I think that when it's all self-focused There's a term for that. It's called narcissism and uh, you know, so for me
00:47:11
Speaker
having an audience, you know, being the students, watching the actors in the play that I wrote, or doing that reunion I mentioned with kids I grew up with. It's communicating ideas, sharing ideas, and feeling really good about what you did. And that to me is the authenticity.
00:47:36
Speaker
And when you find yourself in times of struggle where you're feeling... Mother nature says to me... Right? You're going to break in to let it be. We're going to do let it be now. I heard that. As soon as I said it, I was like, ooh, look at me quoting. In your feeling off-center and it's harder to connect to that part of yourself that feels aligned, how do you come back to it? Do you have any...
00:48:04
Speaker
rituals or ways going for a walk anything you do that helps kind of reconnect you to that that centered place You know, there's there's for me a few things It might be calling a friend yeah, you know and There are those friends and I mentioned that you know in the thank yous to my book there are those friends that
00:48:33
Speaker
you can call them at three in the morning, uh, when things are going wrong and they're there for you. Yeah. And, uh, I'm very fortunate to have developed those kinds of relationships. So it could be that it could be just go to the gym and clear my head, put on headphones, listen to music, work out really hard. Uh, you know,
00:49:02
Speaker
Ultimately, you've got to find what works for you. Yeah. And I think that without getting into the whole thing, there's a reason why people become addicted to alcohol, addicted to drugs, and they're trying to deal with the pain that they have. And what you're talking about is that most serious pain when you were out of synchronicity with yourself. And I think that
00:49:29
Speaker
Learning how to deal with that learning how to be open and communicate with your friends asking for help if you need it and not being afraid or embarrassed by that Or just giving yourself space to do nothing but exercise and listen to music and just cool yourself out Whatever works for you Short of an addiction that numbs the pain because that pain is telling you something Right and and you can use that
Living an Authentic Life
00:49:59
Speaker
Not to say that it's pleasant going through it, but it can inform the work that you do too. Especially if you're a writer or a painter in those more traditional areas, you know, that's what fuels great work. Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming on, sharing all your ideas. You guys check out this book, Creative Careers, Making a Living with Your Ideas. If people are interested, they want to find out more about you. Is there a website? Where can they find you?
00:50:29
Speaker
There is a website and it's called creativecareer.com. They can see some of the videos of the guests and about the topics that they talk about. There's also Instagram, which is
00:50:47
Speaker
at sign a creative career and they can see my video and film work at madoffproductions.com and That'll give them a pretty good idea of the stuff that I do and I started a group recently on LinkedIn
00:51:03
Speaker
creative careers, where my goal is, and we'll see if it works, is to really have the kind of robust discussion that you and I have been having among lots of different people from lots of different pursuits and posing questions and getting comments and discussion going on around that. So that's a group hashtag creative careers. Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate your time. My pleasure. Thank you. It was great talking to you. Thanks.