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Best of 2019: Silvy Khoucasain: Love with Integrity
136 Plays4 years ago
Today we have a really special show in store for you! We welcome relationship coach Silvy Khoucasian to share her expertise and personal work with relationships. Silvy has her masters degree in psychology and is particularly interested and specializes in attachment and boundaries and how codependency arises in relationships. She helps clients to show up and stay authentic with their partners, a balance that most people will find to be a constant challenge, even with the best intentions.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to this week's episode of the Art of Authenticity. I'm Laura Ko, your host, and thank you guys once again for joining in. Today we have Sylvie Kukoskian joining us. She is a relationship coach. She also earned her master's degree in psychology from the MFT program at Phillips Graduate Academy. And she was born in
Living Authentically in Relationships
00:00:37
Speaker
Saudi Arabia. She moved to the United States and she is really, really focused on this idea of attachment.
00:00:43
Speaker
boundaries, what it means to be in relationships, and she's done a great job, I think, of breaking this stuff down in an easy digestible form that I find really interesting, and I've been following her a lot lately. I think a lot about authenticity, what it means to live an authentic life, what it means to honor yourself and to live in a life that feels aligned, not just in a pro and con-less kind of way, but aligned internally, what it means to feel as if your life has purpose, meaning
00:01:10
Speaker
You feel in your gut, in your soul, that you are in the place you're meant to be. But what does that mean when you're in a relationship with somebody else? How do you hold boundaries? How do you not have two rigid boundaries? How do you maintain that sense for yourself while showing up in the relationship? Not an easy topic, not easy for most of us to get done. And if you've been in a relationship, I'm sure you have found you've hit walls of, when am I being selfless? When am I being selfish? When am I being self-centered? When am I not giving? When am I giving too much?
00:01:39
Speaker
How do I hold my space? When do I let go? What creates security and comfort, which is what we all want to feel in relation. If you want to check out more of her work, you can find her at sylvicuchaskin.com. I will have the link on my site.
Understanding Codependency and Attachment Styles
00:01:54
Speaker
Thank you guys once again for tuning in. Hope you love today's show. Hey, Sylvie. How are you? Hi, Lauren. Doing fabulous. How are you? I am good. I'm excited. I can't
00:02:04
Speaker
say this often, and I'm sorry to some of my other guests, but you're actually somebody I've been following very extensively lately, so I'm excited to have you here. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on and share your views and ideas. They've been very powerful for me lately. Oh, I'm so honored and so excited to have this philosophical and juicy conversation today. Yes, yes. I have so many questions.
00:02:28
Speaker
So you guys, everybody out there, Sylvie works with people on boundaries codependency. She's a coach and she is the partner of the lovely Brian Reeves who has been on the show three or four times. I'm not totally sure, but go back, check out his episodes. He's amazing.
00:02:45
Speaker
So i was hoping still be that you could start off by introducing the audience to some of these concepts that have been truly transformative for me in that you put such clear language around them and it's just help me understand my relationships and.
00:03:02
Speaker
maybe some patterns and habits and ways that I can identify myself or the person I've been with or dynamics, but just really understanding it from this broad level first for everybody because we hear words like boundaries and codependency, but I'm not sure often we know what they exactly mean and you say them in such interesting ways. So could you start with codependency and how that leads into boundaries and just give the audience there sort of a broad understanding
00:03:27
Speaker
codependency was originally very much thought of with alcohol or addiction. Now it's sort of broadened, but you could share your view of it today. Absolutely. And I'm all about simplifying. So I will do my best to make this, you know, as digestible as I possibly can. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Codependency was a term that was coined to really show how we can
00:03:52
Speaker
enable certain partners, for example, when we have an alcoholic partner and we are morphing our behavior in order to adjust to our partner's behaviors. And it's a hard word to define because it's evolving constantly. And it essentially is a form of self abandonment in efforts to keep a connection or a relationship with another person. And so that can be all kinds of different scenarios. I can be in a relationship with somebody if I have really poor self esteem,
00:04:21
Speaker
You know, I don't have a sense of solid self worth. I will put my partner on a pedestal if I'm anxiously attached. I will actually see my partner is better than they actually are and see the potential rather than the person that I'm actually in a relationship with and do things and please them and actually neglect taking care of myself.
00:04:39
Speaker
if I am with somebody that is perhaps struggling with a mental illness, but if I have codependent patterns, I will not actually speak up or say anything or make them getting support a non-negotiable in the relationship and just kind of take on a motherly role or a fatherly role and just enable certain things and take on way too much responsibility in the relationship. So it's that theme of really doing too much. And sometimes it has nothing to do with our partner at all. It can just be,
00:05:08
Speaker
I've grown up in a family system where I was a caretaker for a parent that was emotionally relying on me, which is never a child's role ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. So if any of you are listening, that is never a child's role. I don't care how we justify that to ourselves. And then we take on that same pattern
00:05:25
Speaker
and our identity is so wrapped in that role of caretaker that we start to do those same things in a relationship and then blame our partner, criticize our partner, feel resentful and anger towards our partner when in reality we are the ones that need to be setting those boundaries on ourselves. That's so well put. I mean, I hope you guys caught that, right? Self-abandonment to keep yourself in the relationship. You give up on your own needs and your own
00:05:52
Speaker
even a connection to what they are right i think people often don't even know how to connect to their needs are so focused on making sure the relationship stays intact and that is because if i understand it correctly they're afraid of the abandonment and the loss of the relationship and this sort of idealized version of the relationship right that they want to hold on to.
00:06:13
Speaker
Absolutely. And or the identity they have on themselves. So sometimes it can also be not just losing the connection with another person, but
00:06:23
Speaker
losing that sense of connection with themselves. For example, if I am so identified with a certain kind of role, if I start acting differently, there's almost a fundamental grieving process and an identity shifting that needs to happen in order for me to step into a different role in the adult relationship. But if I have not done any work around it, I'm just repeating that same way of being because it's so comfortable and familiar for me.
00:06:47
Speaker
in the way of being in that I'm showing up and taking care of and overextending and not having good boundaries, right? Is that what you... Exactly. Yeah. Beautiful, really well put. And so you threw in there real quick an attachment style of an anxious attachment. And I've read the book Attached now, so I am feeling good.
00:07:07
Speaker
But again, this was mind-blowingly interesting. And for everybody out there, you're working on authenticity, you're working on showing up in your life, and your relationships are a big part of that. We're gonna really roll into authenticity here in a moment, but this was transformative for me to think about who I am and how I show up in relationships. Again, it's such a complicated idea in theory, but the book itself made it really easy, you guys, so check out Attached. But Sylvia, if you could explain the attachment styles,
00:07:35
Speaker
How do you know if you're one or the other? What are the kind of key indicators? Absolutely. Yes. And it's helpful to know the attachment styles in the sense of how we develop boundaries, how we might have codependent patterns, because our attachment styles are basically developed in our childhood.
00:07:52
Speaker
It's the way that we attach and bond to our primary caregiver, meaning the person who's responsible for emotionally regulating us. And oftentimes that's mom, but it's not always. Sometimes it's dad. You know, it's whoever has that designated role. It could be a grandmother. It could be an aunt. It's that one person that is responsible for tuning into us.
00:08:13
Speaker
paying attention to when we have needs, when we're crying, when we need comfort and emotional regulating. That is the job of the caregiver, a big part of the job. And so the way that dynamic plays out gets duplicated in our adult relationships. And that same way of relating and experiencing that comfort and safety with our primary caregiver is how we experience our intimate relationship, intimate partner.
00:08:37
Speaker
So there's four different kinds and I'll try to make it as short and easy to understand as possible because I can go I can talk about these for days Laura.
Healing and Balancing Boundaries
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah. And if you guys are wanting the more detailed check her out. We'll have all the links. She's on Instagram and she has all sorts of videos. So we'll start off with the securely attached because that gives a great framework to understand other ones. The secure attached is having a caregiver who's
00:09:01
Speaker
emotionally present and attuned most of the time. So if they're not, for example, consistent in certain moments, they're able to recognize that mistake and repair really quickly with the child. So the child is never really left feeling like they have to emotionally regulate themselves or have to shut down or really cry for long periods of time. They really have a trust and safety with their caregiver. Those people grow up to be partners and in relationships where they have a sense of trust.
00:09:31
Speaker
They're very ease filled. They can have intimate relationships. They can feel close, but they can also give their partner and themselves space to wander and not think that anything bad is going to happen. So that is always what we're trying to aim towards becoming more and more securely attached. If we had a caregiver that was not so consistent, maybe sometimes
00:09:50
Speaker
They were very loving, very tuned in, but then other times they were totally checked out. Maybe they were depressed or they were an alcoholic or they traveled sometimes and sometimes they didn't. That child starts to get very confused and is able to feel that love and connection with their caregiver, but then at other times they don't feel it.
00:10:10
Speaker
So they're reaching, they're clinging, they have that sense of like desperation. And if you're an adult in a relationship, you're somebody that tends to get highly threatened in relationships frequently. You get triggered very fast, your nervous system is super, super hypersensitive to any kind of outside threats. And you might act out in ways where you're not always direct in your communication style because you don't have that secure, stable safety that a securely attached person has.
00:10:37
Speaker
So I'm kind of going on the spectrum of the way that going from securely to the least secure just because it gives it the best kind of flow. And so the third one would be the fearful avoidance. So this is a person that maybe had an abusive caregiver that was very invasive in their approach.
00:10:53
Speaker
maybe neglectful, but there's a harsh quality to it. A lot of kids that have a severe neglect or severe abuse end up feeling deeply afraid of their caregiver. And so in their adult relationships, they are in and out. Maybe their parents used them for comfort, and so they had a connection with their parent, but it was always at the cost of themselves. And I want to make a really important note for this one. This is where a lot of codependency happens, because they were often used almost like a tool for the parent rather than for their own self-regulation.
00:11:24
Speaker
that child starts to feel like, OK, I need to be doing things for another person. I need to be giving myself up in order to please and comfort and provide for another. So there's a lot of ties with codependency with the fearful avoidant attachment style. Push-pull, lots of confusion on how to be. They feel a lot of high anxiety when they are in a relationship, but also can shut down. So they have a little bit of both avoidant and anxious tendencies.
00:11:50
Speaker
And then the last but not least is the fourth attachment style, all the way on the other side of the spectrum, which a lot of times people confuse this with narcissism, but there are some distinctions. So people that are avoidantly attached have had a parent that was very neglectful. So this child was really encouraged to not ask for help. They were maybe shamed for having needs. And so this child really stopped asking fairly young. They were like the little responsible adult that took care of themselves.
00:12:16
Speaker
And as an adult, they had to kind of adapt this mentality that I'm good by myself. I don't have to have needs. I don't need to ask anybody else for anything because I've learned to take care of for myself. And of course, what they do is they end up shaming and minimizing and dismissing the needs of their partners because nobody was ever there for them. Why should anybody else have needs, right? So they shut down very fast.
00:12:39
Speaker
But they don't have that same anxiety that the fearful avoidant has because they never really depended on anyone to begin with. So they're just able to kind of be more focused on their careers. They look very put together, often like a CEO or like the head of a company very, very self assured and have kind of like an inflated sense of self.
00:12:57
Speaker
can focus on other people's flaws. So I think that's a good start. I don't want to go too deep into them. Is that give enough of a meat for each of them? Yeah, no, that's great. That's great. And one of the things that came up for me right away is that different situations can bring out different types of attachment styles within us that we all have some of these to some degrees. By and large, we tend to veer towards one or the other, right?
00:13:20
Speaker
Absolutely. Yes. Very good point. You know, I forget the question from people. Well, I'm so anxious with this person, but I feel avoidant with this person or I'm so secure with this person. Why is that? And it's like exactly what you said. There's fluctuation between all of these.
00:13:33
Speaker
We tend to have one kind of attachment style. We meet people in different scenarios in different environments where we are adapting to who we are with. So if you notice, even a highly secure person, if they're with somebody that is very avoidant and is really dismissive of their needs, they will even start to feel clingy if they don't set boundaries and really negotiate what their needs are and make that very clear. They'll start to become more anxious and they'll start to
00:14:00
Speaker
take on certain behaviors and go backwards so it's so important that we are paying attention to who we are in a relationship with you know for a long time for me i had a lot of anxious and avoidant stuff going on and i was never really clear i was very kind of not direct about what my needs were and i knew in the beginning of my relationship with brian i was like okay i know that i need a phone call every morning for my nervous system in order so i don't have to wait the whole day to kind of wonder if things are okay between us
00:14:29
Speaker
and I took that risk to really make that a priority and it really makes such a difference because you get to see how willing the other person is to show up for those needs. That's such a big part of what I teach when I work with my clients. Yeah, so you're jumping into the point that I wanted to speak to and I just love hearing about. So, right, you hear about this and then you're like, oh God, maybe I'm a fearful avoidant or maybe I'm insecure or maybe I'm like,
00:14:55
Speaker
everybody hopefully is feeling like there's some way in which they're connecting to one of these Western culture. Let's fix that. The first thing we want to do is fix it. But in part fixing it, from what I understand is that you have to feel safe and you have to be in an environment with somebody who's going to meet you in a place where you feel
00:15:15
Speaker
to your last statement, right, that you reached out to Brian, you said, I need this phone call. And he acknowledged that and allowed that to be part of the relationship so that you were able to express your need in a safe way and have that need met so that that flight system, right, because that's what's happening is people are not regulating and they're feeling flight and they're getting flooded and they're not safe.
00:15:36
Speaker
And so would you say that that's kind of at the core of this, what it's about, that healing begins when we are in an environment with somebody who we can express what those needs are, and that's your job, right? To be willing and able to take that leap and say it, but then to make sure you're with somebody that will honor those things, not say, oh, you're clingy, you're needy, you're
00:16:02
Speaker
you need to be more independent you know whatever absolutely and it's a negotiation right there's gonna be certain things that i'm gonna approach my partner with that might not necessarily be something he's capable of and that there might be real limitations for example if i have a couple that i'm working with one of them is anxiously attached on the extreme end,
00:16:20
Speaker
And the other one is super avoidantly attached, which, of course, they love each other. They attract each other, even though it's both of them, they're recreating their own worst nightmares to be in a relationship with each other. However, if both partners are really willing to find a middle, an anxious person, all they want is that closeness. It's almost like it's never enough connection. And that's like the worst nightmare for an avoidant partner, who's like, just leave me alone. Let me have my own space. I just want to come home from work and just have my own little bubble.
00:16:49
Speaker
But an anxious person can't go to an avoidant partner and I want to really be clear you guys with the labels It's not about fitting ourselves in a box The labels are just to help us identify with certain patterns because I get the question all the time But I fit with two of these or three of these that's totally fine just pay attention and focus more on the behaviors that might be harmful and work on those things rather than just
00:17:13
Speaker
really trying to just stuff yourself and make yourself one of them. That's never going to be helpful. Yeah, absolutely.
Setting Healthy Boundaries and Self-Awareness
00:17:21
Speaker
And so if you express those needs and you have a partner that can't meet some of them, but meets other of them, but again, the safety to negotiate those that you're willing to hear no in some situations, but you're also getting some of your needs met so that you're regulated, right? Like that's the number one goal is like you don't want to be in a state of fear and stress.
00:17:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And if you go to your partner and you ask them for something and they come back to you with, no, I'm not willing to do that. I'm not even willing to hear this. I don't want to have this conversation. That's very different than somebody that says, you know, I really want you to feel cared for. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it in exactly that way, but how can we kind of figure out a way that works for both of us?
00:18:04
Speaker
That's a different response and something, someone you can actually, you know that you're gonna have a team player, a partner that's gonna try to find a solution. And how disarming is it just hearing somebody that has that willingness to create a different kind of option that works for both of you?
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's so important. And you have these great posts on Instagram, right, where you really help people, you guys, you can check it out. But like, ways to approach each other, ways to say things that can be toxic and shaming versus like healthy. And so just this small shift in language or the way in which you're received, again, creates that safety and security that we're ultimately looking for in in our primary relationship.
00:18:44
Speaker
Absolutely. And you know, as somebody who identifies with a lot of avoidance stuff, for me, the way people approach me matters a lot. If somebody kind of forces me to be vulnerable from the beginning or doesn't honor that I have a slower pace or tries to shame me rather than asking directly, oh, I would love to feel closer to you, would you mind sharing something rather than
00:19:04
Speaker
you're never open or you're never that you know it's like so how we approach our partners like limitations and sensitivities can make or break the relationship can really either push them further away or wow we're including what this person's fears are we're including that this avoidant person has the tendency to feel shame pretty quickly so how can i approach them in a way where i still get what i need but i'm i'm leading with that awareness and sensitivity first yeah
00:19:34
Speaker
It's a game changer. Yeah, and I love too how you lay out the different ways to approach the different styles because you might say it that way to somebody who is avoidant, but somebody who has anxious attachment, you would want to say it slightly differently, right? Completely differently. With somebody anxious, they need a lot of reassurance and they want to know that you're not going anywhere. And you know, again, they have that high sensitivity to threats and just even seeing I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, I'm with you.
00:20:00
Speaker
your sensitivities are important to me you can always tell me what's on your mind even if i'm not always able to hear you well i still want you to know that i care about you know so it's not making ourselves just meeting all the needs of our partner again because that can be codependency but it's acknowledging the validity of the needs even if we can't meet them.
00:20:20
Speaker
Right. That's so important, right? Again, it's like, I hear you, I validate you, I honor you. I don't know if I can do that, but I'm not going to diminish you and tell you that you're crazy or whatever, right? Which I think it becomes very toxic in relationships. We just we lose each other, you know, and that's the sad thing is, I've seen so many relationships that are, you know, we try to approach our partner the same way that we want to be approached. And that's
00:20:47
Speaker
That's not always helpful. The Gottman Institute is amazing about really reflecting on the importance of knowing our partners map, you know, a map, their biggest triggers. You know, do you know the two or three or four biggest triggers that your partner lives with and that they might always live with that those things might not ever go away, even if they've worked on them or healed them to a certain point. There's still an acknowledgement or sensitivity in the way we language certain things. So we don't just kind of set them through the roof.
00:21:16
Speaker
And we don't think we have to be responsible for that stuff. There's this quote by this relationship coach. His name is Justice Shan Ferber, which I love. And he says, it isn't a lack of love that cripples so many relationships. It's a refusal to acknowledge its opposites. It's like me refusing to acknowledge how my avoidance
00:21:36
Speaker
behaviors affect my partner or if I was an anxiously attached person, me refusing to acknowledge that, wow, sometimes I can be really clingy. That must feel really uncomfortable and overbearing for you. I'm so sorry. It's like being able to really look at our limitations and some of the behaviors that we bring that can be really challenging for our partner and that we have to acknowledge.
00:21:59
Speaker
And look, again, because I have been in every situation. There are people who come on super strong and I feel so avoidant, right? I'm not an avoidant person, but I'm like, whoa, I just want to run. Sorry, somebody who's super clingy and all that. When somebody is very avoidant, it can be very off-putting. I just think, you know, what's going on that they're having that issue. So you can feel all of the different ranges of things. And, you know, if you can relate to, I think, having those experiences,
00:22:26
Speaker
then some level of understanding that I've made somebody else feel that way, right? And I don't want to have anybody feel that way as well, right, is something that I've thought about.
00:22:36
Speaker
So boundaries. We talked about codependency boundary, the attachment styles. To me, there's something very complicated in setting boundaries in that you want to honor yourself. And we've all come into this world. We have our life. We want to honor who we are. We've met somebody who is building a life for themselves. They're honoring their self. They want to build a life that makes sense for them. This shows about authenticity, building a life that feels authentic and real, meaningful on your own terms, right? That we're not comparing, we're not doing it in some formulaic way.
00:23:06
Speaker
But how do I honor my own boundaries and honor the boundaries of the person I'm with and then also have the flexibility and the fluidity to compromise? And so this question comes up for me about where does it become selfless? And we've talked about codependency. Where does it become selfish, right? Where you are overly rigid. How do you find that kind of middle ground and how do you know when you've gotten there?
00:23:36
Speaker
Wow, that is such a complex and deep and important question, Laura, that you're asking. And I've been working with boundaries for years now, and it's something that I still don't have the answer to. And I don't think that we ever will. I think it's one of those things that it's like the concept of codependency. It's evolving, and we're learning what it is and how to navigate with it. But it's almost like boundaries is something we have to learn to tolerate.
00:24:01
Speaker
and find that negotiation and that middle ground. But it's really helpful to know, again, I work a lot with attachment in childhood in my sessions and my practice, and it's helpful to know where we came from. If we grew up in really violating homes and we've had our boundaries really, really violated, we might have the tendency to be really rigid.
00:24:24
Speaker
And it's like having that ability to reflect and be aware of that part as we are evolving and shifting our boundaries. So there's certain boundaries that are pretty non-negotiable. You know, there's certain things that we want to have very clear defined and
00:24:40
Speaker
For example, the way somebody speaks to us, you know, maybe there's, I don't allow curse words or that is a really huge deal breaker for me. And I just, I can't tolerate that. And even with that, if somebody in a relationship does do that accidentally once or twice, are they really remorseful and like making that quick behavioral change to really honor how important of a boundary this is?
00:25:02
Speaker
versus things like, you know, that you're mentioning that are more gray. You know, one partner has a need for a lot of socialization outside the relationship and one partner gets really threatened by that. And so do you automatically break up if the person that has the lower tolerance can't embrace that or do you just take the other person they have to kind of change their behavior in order to have one partner be able to be more authentic, right? And so I think that's
00:25:27
Speaker
Part of what you're speaking to is almost like when two people are being authentic Can that really work or is there gonna be a sort of compromise or sacrifice at some point? And I think yes, I think there is going to be if we're in a long-term relationship I think sometimes if a partner is working through something especially if the boundary is pertaining to something that's traumatic or that has a rawness to it sometimes that
00:25:52
Speaker
It's shelving something that maybe the other partner wanted to do, but they can maybe revisit it in a year. So it's not neglecting the other person's experience, but looking at, okay, in this phase in our relationship, maybe there's certain things that we can do that can really help you with this healing. But also I need to know that my experience is also going to be important to me and finding that middle place. And a lot of times people that have had no boundaries growing up, a lot of times I work with kids,
00:26:20
Speaker
or adults that have had a parent that had no boundaries. And so their energy is chaos. They just want to feel like they can do whatever they want whenever they want and they have no sense of boundaries at all. And if they don't take that time to really see how that can developmentally be harmful for them, then they kind of just stay in that entitled space, you know, because
00:26:38
Speaker
Being honoring of someone else's boundaries if you've never had a parent have or set boundaries with you is gonna feel super uncomfortable and foreign and strange and There's gonna be a learning curve for that I always work with couples that are one partner is usually on one end of the spectrum and the other is There and they have a lot to teach each other, you know, it's funny me me and Brian are very similar. He's much more free-spirited I lead with a no or is he usually leads with a yes and
00:27:05
Speaker
And we've helped each other so much, too. He's helped me really come out of my shell. And he always jokes about how I've really helped him kind of ground and land and be able to say no to more things. So it's like, is there a reason why we're choosing somebody? Is there an opportunity here for growth, even though it might be really hard and challenging? Because we do. We do choose people for that piece, too. But it doesn't make it easier.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, Sylvie, what I'm hearing you say and what I love is it's all about playing in this gray zone and communicating and finding a space where people feel heard and validated, but that requires a certain level of communication that most people don't have the greatest comfort in communication about feelings, right? Like my book is Emotional Obesity and this work I do and
00:27:54
Speaker
expressing your own feelings even to yourself can be hard, and then having the courage to admit them to other people and not feel like you're crazy, feeling like maybe I don't have right to say these things, and then the other half receiving information, not taking it personally, not blaming, not shutting down, not flooding, not walking out, anger, right? All the different things. Do you feel like this work should be done with a coach, a therapist? Is it possible for people to work on it on their own? How do you feel about that topic?
00:28:22
Speaker
I always think, you know, finding a therapist or a coach or a guide, if you're stuck, is the most incredible gift you can give yourself. You know, me and my partner, I'm a therapist, he's a coach, we still go to therapy, we still have sessions ongoing, both individually and as a couple.
Therapeutic Approaches and Red Flags in Relationships
00:28:38
Speaker
And we're both such advocates of doing that. Because I mean, if you think about it, if we don't have the language to articulate something, or if we're stuck, we're stuck. There is no
00:28:48
Speaker
It's like there is no communication possible when we're in that space. Books are incredible. Like even like you mentioned, you know, the book attached or the book you just mentioned about being able to expand emotionally, learning boundaries. There's so much wisdom we can get through books. Sometimes that can be enough to give us enough of a self understanding that we can then relay that to our partner. Sometimes it's not. If there's trauma, you know, if there's
00:29:13
Speaker
any kind of severe anxiety or depression or if there's any kind of mental illness, that just adds another layer to the equation and having a third party helping to regulate both people simultaneously so they both feel heard. If we're so stuck in a traumatic experience, it's very likely that we're not going to even be able to hear our partner even if they're saying the perfect words. Yeah, because I think that's what happens, right? I was in a 17-year relationship.
00:29:40
Speaker
repeating and repeating and repeating it's like I felt like at one point I could just the two of us could leave the room and we could just play the recorder of the last conversation cuz it's gonna be the same as the next one where you get into a pattern with each other that gets deeper and deeper and without some external views or some way of looking at it differently and people I think get into their corner of trying to be right right and blaming the other person. Yes.
00:30:05
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's where, you know, even the term vulnerability can be confusing. You know, what the hell is it? I don't know. We're being vulnerable. It's all so gray and it's hard to make these kinds of things tangible. It's almost like you only kind of learn it by diving into it. You know, one of the things that I try to practice in my relationship is like, when we keep hitting that same place over and over again, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to be able to move. Brian, I can't, I know that if I approach him in this same way, there's no hope for me. So.
00:30:34
Speaker
How can I take a step back? And again, this is after years of doing trauma therapy, you guys. This is something that has taken a long time. But just to even be able to recognize some of my extreme demands or expectations from him and being able to call myself out, one of the things
00:30:51
Speaker
that I find I can get really desperate is if I feel like I really need someone to stand up for me and it can feel so extreme. And when I'm wanting him to do that, I remember I think I wrote a post on it a couple of weeks ago. I remember in the moment of that I said, I don't even know if what I'm asking for you to do is even possible.
00:31:11
Speaker
I don't think so and it was a moment of deep sadness and just dropping into like wow I'm clinging and feeling like I just want to control and manage what you're doing on your side but that's the power of having healthy boundaries in a relationship I think because it really does in a way
00:31:31
Speaker
sideways way force you to be vulnerable and feel your stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so what does it mean? You just said, if you have healthy boundaries, what are some key signs that, you know, you have healthy boundaries in a relationship?
00:31:45
Speaker
So one way is, let's say your partner projects a lot. We all project, by the way. This is not just like this is a universal thing. We all project in a relationship. Once you're close, you're going to project. Some people are better and they're just more self-regulated. They're more self-aware. They might have had parents that were very good with helping them to integrate their experiences, but for the most part, most of us do. So I'll say most of us.
00:32:07
Speaker
And so if you have a partner, for example, that's projecting a lot on you, and if you have a strong inner boundary, you'll be able to engage with that rather than get enmeshed with that. So you'll be able to recognize that the projection is happening, and there might be something for you to take responsibility for in what your partner is bringing to you, but you can lovingly say to them,
00:32:27
Speaker
Hey, I really get that something really huge is happening for you. What you're saying doesn't feel true for me, but I totally get that this is valid for you. Help me understand what's happening for you. Because a lot of times, even with an anxious partner, they focus out because they don't have somebody helping them to understand their experiences, so they'll focus on the partner.
00:32:47
Speaker
And if you can help guide them in a boundary and loving way, you're not shaming them. You're not saying, hey, this is my boundary. Don't do it. But you're saying, hey, what you're saying doesn't feel true for me. I'll think about it. But is there something happening for you right now?
00:33:01
Speaker
And it's like a very powerful way where you're redirecting the focus. So you're not creating that kind of codependency habit where you're just taking on all these things that are not really true. And it allows you both to have separate experiences. You have to have an internal boundary to be able to do that. And it's a practice, right? Yeah, it's too bad we weren't brought up, right, with all this languaging.
00:33:26
Speaker
We raised kids and we're so focused on etiquette and, you know, say thank you, say thank you. I remember when my son was really little, his friend was being walked to the door and we were like, say thanks for coming and thanks for having me. And they said it backwards so that the kid leaving was...
00:33:42
Speaker
Thank you. Like they did it literally backwards and we're just like laughing so hard. But it's so much focused on this stuff. But when it comes to communicating feelings, we don't give kids language. And so we grow up as adults. And I love, again, your Instagram because it gives these little turns of phrases and ways to say things that we don't want the defensiveness to come in, right? And once people feel defensive and shut down, then it's kind of game over. So
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah, we have practical tools. I mean, it's one thing to be understood and have somebody in like a therapist or a coach give us that self-awareness, but I do think we need the teaching component. We need somebody, even if somebody doesn't use, like we have tons of scripts in the boundaries program, for example, and I always say, you don't have to use the exact words, but reading the words and seeing the words phrase, it almost gives you access to a part of yourself that you can phrase differently. Yeah.
00:34:35
Speaker
So you talk about red flags a lot when you're meeting somebody and you're getting into the relationship, you're negotiating, speaking up about your needs, and there are a couple red flags as you're going in, barring things like obvious, like hitting or violence. But what are a couple red flags? Starting dialogues, dating, meeting somebody, or even if you're in a relationship where
00:34:57
Speaker
Hey, this is not something to keep working on or banging our head up against the wall. This is truly problematic in terms of your needs being heard and met in a reasonable way. Beautiful question. So there's a couple of different ones that come to my mind as you ask that question.
00:35:12
Speaker
There's a lot of course but i think i want to offer you ones that are you can really work with for those of you listening for me a huge one is invalidating our experience which is a huge intellectual violation you know if we're sure you want to find the first few days and we're sharing our experience and the person is really invalidating our experience there.
00:35:30
Speaker
Making it wrong or not really accepting our viewpoint or what we're sharing I often say don't just stay there, you know engage with that because I think what happens is like, okay This person violated me and I guess that's over or you know, it's a red flag. I got to go now But you know, I think it's powerful to give people chance Not a lot in the beginning because I think it's really important that we pay attention to those red flags but also sometimes we're super nervous and sometimes we're
00:35:56
Speaker
you know we're not even aware of how certain behaviors are coming through so even being able to share something to that person like you know i shared something really important to me yesterday and i did feel kind of invalidated by that and seeing how the other person response to our vulnerability so that vulnerability is a risk that we take.
00:36:14
Speaker
How that person responds is going to play a huge role of whether that person is worth wanting to continue to invest their energy with. Are they immediately remorseful? Like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I do that sometimes when I'm really nervous, but I totally see it and I'm going to be really, really mindful of that versus somebody that continues to dismiss what you're even bringing to the table now.
00:36:35
Speaker
Our brains are so flawed, Laura. You know, at the end of the day, I think that's probably one of the things that's helped me the most was really recognizing how flawed our brains are and how patterned they are and how similar they are to our parents' way of thinking and our grandparents. And, you know, I criticize my partner unknowingly all the time and it drives me crazy in like, I mean, in little moments.
00:36:57
Speaker
But what we've allowed in our relationship is for him to be able to come to me and tell me, you know, that felt really harsh or that I didn't like the way you say that. And for me to be open to immediately responding and acknowledging my behavior and just being able to say that I see what he's saying and to be remorseful for that.
00:37:14
Speaker
So what can somebody do? Because while I hear you saying that, I think a lot of people out there immediately feel criticized in that moment, and then they go into a shame spiral, where they feel like, here we go again. There's something wrong with me. You're telling me I suck. And then they have this inner dialogue about how much they self-loathe that already exists that has nothing to do with their partner. But how do you stop that so the person can take that person's feedback without spiraling?
00:37:42
Speaker
Again, really, you're asking really great, amazing questions, Laura. You are like literally, I think everyone is probably like, yep, that's what I'm thinking. Yep, exactly. And shame is real. Shame is not something that we can logically really talk ourselves out of because, again, if we had a parent that was not good with helping us to regulate our own shame, then guess what? You're going to feel a lot of shame in your adult relationships. And sometimes,
00:38:07
Speaker
Our partner can help us work through that shame before they can actually get to be heard sometimes you know for the beginning of my relationship with brian i would change spirals and i'm sharing a lot of my personal stuff because i want people to really get how much of this stuff is gonna come through if it's under the surface,
00:38:24
Speaker
and sometimes he would help me with what was coming up with me, but then I would go back to him. So if you're with somebody that tends to have a lot of shame, that's gonna be really real for them and helping them just by holding them and paying attention to the quality of the environment of the relationship. Are we only going to a partner with criticism or recognizing the things that they're not doing right? Maybe we need to boost a little bit more of our appreciation or acknowledging things they do right, because it is really easy to just get fixated on a pattern of
00:38:53
Speaker
pointing out the bad things and there has to be i think it's a five to one ratio of appreciation verses you know about positive to negative interactions for relationship to be sustainable that's got my research by the way so taking turns you know whoever is having the more intense emotional experience.
00:39:11
Speaker
That person has to be engaged with first but they cannot forget to go back around and really engage with the person who needed that reassurance in the first place. I think that's what we often do and that can end up being another way of having a codependent relationship where you neglect your needs for the relationship and shame does get easier and it takes about twenty five times of regulating the emotion of shame in order to really have it regulated in our nervous system as an adult.
00:39:38
Speaker
Yeah, because I mean, it's real, like people don't take the criticism, they spiral, if they self loathe and then they blame their partner for that, right? It's like, you make me feel terrible about myself. And then whatever that person came to them with is negated and not dealt with. And that's, that's where boundaries need to come in. You know, if, if we've done that a few times and our partners still flipping it, again, that's shame because shame is one of the defenses against shame is avoidance. It is doing that to avoid feeling the shame.
00:40:07
Speaker
So again it helps to have the intellectual understanding because it helps us have that empathy into realize okay my partner is not intentionally trying to do this however I still need to set a boundary.
00:40:18
Speaker
We talked about this thing a couple of days ago. I really get that it was really hard for you. You feel blamed. However, I really also need my experience to feel validated too. That's really, really important for me. And hopefully by then, their shame has been worked through. You know, if somebody has really low self-esteem and has not done any work around it, this is going to be a big problem. And that's a reality. And sometimes that will be the
00:40:39
Speaker
catalyst to help them to start working with someone around this because it's not fair you know it's not fair that we're we're having to negate and minimize our own experiences because we're afraid of our partner staying stuck in a shame spiral.
Sylvie's Boundaries Program and Authentic Living
00:40:53
Speaker
Oh my God, I could keep going for hours. Me too. So you guys have a program, the Boundaries Program because relationships suck without boundaries. And I mean, honest to God, like, you know, most of my life I've been in relationship and I wish I had come to this earlier. These frameworks, I don't usually love frameworks. I feel like they're often
00:41:14
Speaker
generic and formulaic and, you know, I don't know, everybody's so different and I'm a little more spiritual, but I do find these frameworks are just so clarifying and there's this Oprah moment happening. You guys created this boundary program. Tell me a little bit about what that is and share with the audience. Who is this for? What can they expect?
00:41:33
Speaker
Thank you for that lovely intro to this. I appreciate your kind words, Laura, and I'm so honored to be able to have this conversation with you. You're very intuitive and ask questions, and you're an amazing listener, I have to say. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Absolutely. So the program has really come out of both my and Brian's own experience with struggling to implement boundaries.
00:41:53
Speaker
We really wanted to create a lot of practical language. I give a lot of therapeutic background, meaning first of all, helping people to understand why they have a hard time with boundaries, helping them to understand what boundaries of theirs got violated likely in their own past, which kind of turned off their internal red flag system to help them really connect some dots. And then we teach how to start slowly implementing for different kinds of scenarios, even things from
00:42:20
Speaker
how to ask your partner for more sexual intimacy in a very boundry and self-honoring way that's still very honoring and respectful of your partner. There's examples such as
00:42:30
Speaker
how to set boundaries in the middle of conflict, how to let your partner know if they're being invalidating of your boundaries. So just all kinds of intimate relationship scenarios. However, it can apply for people that are also single. It's not just for people in intimate relationships, but the topic is the umbrella is more for relationships in general. I will be adding more modules for like work environments and family dynamics.
00:42:54
Speaker
And those are not updated yet, but whoever gets the program, all of the new stuff gets, you know, they get access to it for free. I love it. I ask everybody who comes on the show, I want to ask you as well, what does an authentic life mean to you? You know, I used to be a very black and white thinking person. And I think for me, an authentic life now is being able to be open and expressive to who I am in this moment, but also allowing myself the freedom
00:43:20
Speaker
to change my mind and my perspective as I learn new things. Beautiful. And what kind of practices or habits do you have in your life that help you to maintain an authentic and real life experience? My first one is writing daily. Instagram has been like my most healing experience because it's kind of has given me a discipline to just write and that freedom to be able to write every single day has been so, so grounding. I tend to be much more on the extreme emotional side. It has helped me become much more
00:43:50
Speaker
integrated with balance with my logical and my more left brain. Also, listening to people who think differently than me, to really help expand my thinking. People that embody or are more comfortable in the gray is something that I'm very drawn to, whether that's podcasts, YouTube, like you, you're a philosopher. I love that because it brings me deep joy. I can't tell you, I feel like electricity runs through my body when I hear different perspectives.
00:44:18
Speaker
I think it just gives us so much more empathy to be able to see that there's no right or wrong. There's no way to live in that black and white world and feel truly fulfilled. At least that's how I feel. Yeah. After interviewing all these people and working on this for years,
00:44:34
Speaker
I really do feel energetically we're all from the same source. We're all from the same place. We are experiencing the same emotions. But then we're experiencing life on a human level differently. All of us walk a different path. And so my pain is the same as your pain, but my narrative of that pain, the way I experienced it, the way that I feel about it, and the way that I dialogue with myself about it is particular to me. So I think it's just beautiful to share in other people's
00:45:02
Speaker
Stories, I appreciate you coming in, sharing your story, being so honest and vulnerable about everything going on with you and Brian and your journey. If people are looking to find out more about you, program, where can they find you? First of all, thank you so much. And I'm just as honored, Laura, and I'm so grateful for your presence and just your incredibly caring questions.
00:45:22
Speaker
I would say the best place for people to find me would be my Instagram hub because that's where kind of I put all my meat and potatoes of my work and where I do live sessions and the boundaries program. I could send you the link for it. Yeah, we'll throw it up on our website. Thank you so much, Sylvie, for coming on today and sharing with our audience.