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S3 Ep211: Talkcast - June 2022
75 Plays3 years ago
MAJOR SPOILERS: Westworld Season 1, Bioshock 1
Join Dave and Jake as they talk about shows, YouTube, and whatever else crossed their minds on this week's episode!
Intro:
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
Like our podcast? Like our podcast! We'll post when new episodes are uploaded!
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Join Dave and Jake as they talk about shows, YouTube, and whatever else crossed their minds on this week's episode!
Intro:
- Satisfactory OST - (Song 6)
- Satisfactory - Thanks Jace, helps a lot! (Dev Highlight Music)
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
Like our podcast? Like our podcast! We'll post when new episodes are uploaded!
https://www.facebook.com/SoapstonePodcast/
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Transcript
Introduction to Soapstone Podcast
00:00:48
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake, and I'm joined by my co-host is always Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? It's going okay. I literally did not see the countdown. You snuck it in. I hot-dropped you into the situation. Usually Jake has these booming, he counts down from three, but there's such gravitas behind
YouTube Content and Copyright Issues
00:01:11
Speaker
what he's saying. You're like, oh shit, we're actually starting.
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's like the youtube videos. It's like number one And then we still make it at number one Thanks for watching watch mojo. Yeah, it's all Yeah, there's been Related to what you're talking about. Um I've been watching just a lot of miscellaneous clips from movies and crap like that on youtube and There's a lot of channels out there that are just
00:01:40
Speaker
Before it seemed like it was mostly, so you did get like, but like cinema clips or whatever it was called something else, movie clips, and then a bunch of like low quality independently people are just uploading this. Um, and now there's like dedicated channels, a lot more dedicated channels that are just like, here's a clip from the movie. Here's our obnoxious intro and outro ring the bell sound in the middle. And it's so dumb.
00:02:06
Speaker
It is. From a standpoint of how does that channel succeed, I get that people typically want short form. They don't want to go watch a whole old movie from the 1980s, but they might want to see like, oh, I heard about this scene. I'll watch for five minutes and then I'll fuck off and do something else. But I do wonder why they're not getting taken down.
00:02:30
Speaker
Cause there's no way that a lot of these just completely independent, small channels have the licenses or rights to show any of that content. Yeah. Usually UMG is all up in that shit. Yeah.
Westworld: Storytelling and Symbolism
00:02:42
Speaker
I was actually, a lot of the clips I was watching were, um, Westworld and some Game of Thrones stuff. Yeah. And it's like, how is any of this here? So Westworld, huh? Is it, has it been long enough? We could probably talk about it.
00:02:57
Speaker
And Dave's literally preparing his mustache. I probably need to trim it a little bit. It's at the length right now. We're eating wings. You just got to commit to it and then just take a power washer afterwards. Yeah.
00:03:15
Speaker
I don't ever get that much facial hair, but at the same time, I don't shave well enough that I ever look kempt, except like one day immediately after I shave. So worst of both worlds. Speaking of both worlds. Yeah, it was really funny because I was watching a
00:03:34
Speaker
What it was is it was an end of season one analysis breakdown video, which is really hilarious. Like I've seen the other seasons, you know, maybe not the most recent. I don't know how many seasons there are. There are three seasons. Yeah.
00:03:51
Speaker
I don't know if I saw three. You didn't see three. I don't think I saw three. Um, but also I think people were like, uh, don't see three. Exactly. But it was really funny, like watching someone analyze like, what could all of this mean when you know what it will mean? Right. You're like the time traveler. Um, and man, season one,
00:04:15
Speaker
It's so good. Yeah. If I'm, if I get to do a callback to three minutes ago where I said gravitas, holy shit. The show does a really good job of.
00:04:26
Speaker
world building, getting you interested and invested in the characters. But then the decisions that each character makes, especially as the show goes on throughout the season, becomes more important. There are so many scenes with Anthony Hopkins where you're like, oh shit. Those moments are really hype.
00:04:47
Speaker
The way they're allowed to get away with like a two minute monologue is because like they've built it up. Yeah. Uh, they have like a really good slow burn. They're never like just jumping between scenes and doing random stuff for shits and giggles. Yeah. Like in season one didn't really have all that many action scenes. Like there were some, there were some fights, you know, you had your gun fights, things like that. Maybe, you know, like a runaway or whatever, but like that's not where a lot of the tension was.
00:05:17
Speaker
Um, a lot more of the tension for me is like these characters and what in the world is going on and what are they trying to do? It was written so, so incredibly well. There was one thing that, um, we'll make a note. Let me just make it out in full footnotes to have a spoiler alert freaking Westworld in here. Uh, West world. There we go. Um, the.
00:05:42
Speaker
I like that I have to call that out now in the middle of the episode, even though people would have seen me anyways, whatever. Um, there was a point where, uh, Ford is talking about the bicameral minds and how, um, the idea was like this, like escalation up the pyramid of these different concepts. But like what he does first is he erases someone, something on the board that was like in a circle.
00:06:12
Speaker
then he like draws the pyramid of ascension like in the circle where the circle is like faded and it's not even part of like the foreground it's not what you're looking at anymore and later the revelation is like
00:06:29
Speaker
the bicameral mind is the maze and you're going inward and then it resembles the circle, which was the very first time it was represented in the show. Yeah. And it's like it's so good. It's like it's literally the difference between a good writer knowing where they're going, describing the scene where they're at. Right. Like that's absolutely necessary for an actual callback. Um,
00:06:59
Speaker
And it's just really good. Yes. There's a surprising amount of instances like that. One of the big standout ones for me, and I assume we were just spoiling random things now. Yeah, but it's freaking all of it. And at this point, it's so close because like you as the person watching, if you're paying attention, you're already on board. But if you're not,
00:07:24
Speaker
Like they give you like another like 10 second reprieve, but this is where Bernard and I forget her name. Yeah. Um, I can't remember, but it's really bugging the person from the board, right? Yeah. Uh, she's in charge of.
00:07:42
Speaker
stuff doesn't work in his department. But basically, they're going exploring outside to some off-site location that Ford has in his own secret lab that it's not actually on the map of the park. And you're seeing this from the perspective of the viewer. So you just see them in a house. And you've already been to the house previously in the show.
00:08:09
Speaker
And they're both looking around in the exact same room, same area. And she says, what's this door? And he's like, what? So he doesn't see it or notice it. And you can easily pass that off as like, oh, he didn't. It's whatever. People miss stuff all the time. Jake was just talking about not seeing part of something in his basement before. So it's very easy to sweep that under the rug.
00:08:31
Speaker
But if you're paying attention to the show and as this explained, like two minutes later, Bernard is actually a host. And the reason you can't see it is because they have an automatic block or something that like they can't understand or that could possibly hurt them. Yeah, they have like, um, and they were, they were describing. I remember, I remember that scene because it's one of the ones I watched recently, not that long previous they were describing.
00:08:57
Speaker
Like how they could selectively hide things from those. It's like, Oh, how was this house hidden out here? It's like, well, none of the hosts would see it. Like it's not, you know, part of their programming. And this is the layers of programming in Bernard, right? It's like, he can see the house.
00:09:16
Speaker
But there's things hidden that he can't see within the house until it's like blatantly outright revealed to him. And he also has a really hilarious kind of expression when he's like look like slowly walking through the door frame like what is going on, you know.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah. But even at that point, you as the viewer might not know, but when she sees the diagrams of like, here's Bernard and his animatronic body, and she's like, do you see this? And he's like, it doesn't look like anything to me, which is the phrase of like, oh, you know what that means. But it was a huge thing at that point. You're like, oh my god. That's the final point where it's like, that's the nail in the coffin.
00:09:58
Speaker
And then they start to reveal to you some instances of like, Hey, remember when we showed you this scene? Remember when we talked about how hosts are rooted, sorry, rooted in like a traumatic experience that they keep going back to. And then it immediately goes to like talking about Bernard and his dead son. Yeah. But you're just like, Oh, it's just a scene transition. Hmm.
00:10:19
Speaker
They have so many things like that in the show. I'm like, ah, the writing's so good. Yeah. The first season writing was insane. And it also like, it pulls off good twists like that are earned where like in writing and world building, anything like that, if you're going to have a twist, there's different ways you can do it. There's.
00:10:42
Speaker
Kind of the way that like Game of Thrones went which is like we're just gonna have things happen and we'll leave things open and then I'll kind of come back on these maybe and Make it seem like this was planned back then right? It's it's writing forward always writing forward
00:10:59
Speaker
Um, and then there's like what I was describing earlier is you know where you're going to end up and you definitively know where you're going to end up. So you can see the hints early about what's going on and actually have them be meaningful, not like vague hints that like may or may not turn into anything.
00:11:20
Speaker
You'll see that a lot in shows that go beyond like the initial plot, you know, the season two and season three. They're like, maybe we can hook into this later. Yeah. Did we not tell you about the great evil? It's been around for 50 years. We forgot to mention in seasons one and two. Right. There's there's the bigger batter guy. Right.
00:11:40
Speaker
And Westworld has legitimate like, here's just a symbol. And later it's something that's recognizable. And it does that, right? It's like, you see it?
00:11:55
Speaker
you get like the image of what something is, but you don't know what it means yet. And then later they come back and they're like, and this is what it means and everything just fits into place. Um, yeah, the show's literally got no, I'm trying to think of an instance, but I'm blank at the moment. No chaff, I would say. I don't think there's any filler scenes, filler characters. They don't have one of my least favorite tropes of
00:12:20
Speaker
Hey, we're going to have, you know, these people in a romantic relationship because, uh, somebody wants to see that. So we got to have it to check a box. Yeah. Like the opposite of that. Actually. Explain. They have like, so like the relationship of, um,
00:12:39
Speaker
Crap, what's the name of the the main character your cowboy protagonist prior to revelation? He's one of them. I think he's the titular Yeah, but like the first character in the show. I'm looking him up now I feel bad that I forget so many of these names. Yeah, Teresa is the name of the one lady. That's right. Yeah William William William William There he is. I he was right in there in the character He was like five in and I couldn't see him
00:13:10
Speaker
He's like, oh, his relationship with Dolores and like the like attachment to the park and all of this other stuff going on. And they're like, maybe this is sort of a romance type. It's absolutely not like our podcast will get demonetized if we explain the full length to which it is not. Well, but.
00:13:31
Speaker
So I would say for a good portion of it, it is kind of a will they won't they like they're going on this adventure together, basically. Yeah. And like they do develop feelings for each other and they do end up. Bang, you know, they'll bang. What is that from? It's it's from it's a parody of Mass Effect. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bang. OK. Yeah.
00:13:58
Speaker
But yeah, um, they obviously have something more romantic and then Dolores and Teddy have more of like a, a very strong relationship, but I don't think they, they ever banged.
00:14:13
Speaker
Not that I remember. I think Teddy is kind of like, he's a member of her party. Yeah. Um, and more, very much more explicitly later as their storylines are written, but, uh, and there's also of course, uh, Bernard and Teresa.
00:14:33
Speaker
But none of these are for the sake of like, oh, it's sauce or whatever, but you just understand that they have a relationship and a connection to each other. So later on, it heightens the steak of some things. But I don't think it's for the sole purpose of heightening steaks.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's just character development, right? It's completely feasible and reasonable development. The relationship between Teresa and Bernard is obviously directly a plot point later. The one between William and Dolores is like, it exists to be played off later, right? Like there's the buildup, there's like, oh, they feel things for each other, all of this.
00:15:20
Speaker
And then there's the reset, right? The moment where William comes back with a slightly different hat. And he's like, I was just a piece, you know, on the board that is this game. And this will unfold. It has unfolded for other people, however many times.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah. And I really like all the acting that everybody does. Also, of course, Ed Harris is a fucking boss. Also, his name is very similar to Ed Harrison, who did the Dio Tokyo soundtrack. I was like, did he compose for that? Yeah. I would love it if he's the same fucking guy. I'd be like, oh my God, it's that guy. Is Ed Harris the, he's the man in black. The man in black. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:07
Speaker
I don't know what else he's been in, but I'm sure he's been in some other stuff that I've seen. He has to have probably more so like some movies in the 90s. Yeah, but I forget all of those movies. We're going to. OK, this isn't a useful search. I got to find I got to reverse played by Ed Harris. Do you actually just do IMDB? I'm getting there. He's in The Truman Show. Yeah, he was the antagonist, the overseer. Yeah, that's right. The Truman Show. OK.
00:16:38
Speaker
It's been a while since I've seen that movie.
Comparing Storytelling Techniques: TV vs Games
00:16:40
Speaker
Apparently he was in Apollo 13 and some other movies I've really, really not seen. Stuff that your dad's probably seen. It's that category. Oh, it's a dad movie. Yeah. He has 108 credits. One of these is called the Adderall Diaries. I don't know what that is.
00:17:00
Speaker
Anyways, that was one time in college. So I will say that's a kind of contrast we're talking about with Westworld. And I won't spoil anything here because it's very new. I watched season three of Stranger Things recently, or four, season four, sorry. I enjoyed it, thought it was good.
00:17:24
Speaker
I have some issues with some of the plot points where it's going, but it's also, they're breaking it up into two parts at least. And on the last episode, like they have, essentially the last episode is like they're building towards something, they reveal something. And I feel like 20 minutes in, you're like, okay, I get it. But then they like, they keep going and like they really hammer home. And then like they, they give you like the,
00:17:50
Speaker
You cannot be confused at all, like what we're trying to say. I'm like, oh, dude, I've been there for 20 minutes. Like, I get it. And it felt like they were just driving home a little too much, where I feel like it could have been done a little more of a subtle way. Still really enjoyed it, but it definitely is in a different tone and approach that I don't think I appreciate as much.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's not nice to be led by. It's honestly an art. The balancing act of revealing the twist is you want people to figure out the twist exactly before it's explicitly stated. You want it to be like the closer those two things are without overlapping.
00:18:37
Speaker
the better because like if you figure out a twist really early in the series either you're just like a prodigy or savant or something and none of your friends believe you but that's not like the common case for most people um and if you did figure it out that early then like you're like when am i getting my payoff right like when is this actually gonna when i'm when's the show gonna come forward with it
00:19:01
Speaker
that's not fun if it's continuing to lead you along so far after you figured it out. But on the opposite side, if you don't figure it out until it's revealed to you, that's also like, it can be good. You can definitely
00:19:17
Speaker
It can be a good moment, but it's not going to be as impactful as if the reader or the viewer on their own was compelled by the pieces of the puzzle to put it together right before the drop. And then you're there.
00:19:33
Speaker
emotionally engaged for the drop where you're like, I've got it. And then they explain it, you know? Yeah. It's like, um, let's say in C's or episode one of a show, let's say it's like a murder mystery. And maybe they, um, like you see the merger weapon and you're like, ah, that sticks out my brain. I know exactly. It's a Smith and Wesson, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then later on you just like see it in the corner of like somebody's room.
00:20:01
Speaker
at like, oh, the police were talking to Jamie Sue, but you see it in the room. If you're like an attentive viewer, you're like, oh my God, I have some suspicions on her because that's the fucking murder weapon. Yeah. It's Chekhov's gun, literally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so it's Chekhov.
00:20:18
Speaker
Um, but yeah, like, and then later on, maybe like, uh, she like turns and smiles towards the camera or something that would like be a tell. And it's like, aha, I'm revealing this. And you're like, okay, I was correct. Are you just very close to being at the exact same moment? Yeah, exactly.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's just really hard to do both of those. Like it extends to video games, too. It's hard to do a twist. Like the best twist is one that makes sense. Like I'm going to go to Bioshock for this. Right. The classic twist. Right. Like and let's let's let's analyze. Let me hear my spoiler alert for Bioshock. It's been found for freaking 20 years. The hell.
00:21:07
Speaker
you know, the line is would you kindly, right? And they use it all the way, you know, through the game, but I don't know anyone personally who picked up on it.
00:21:18
Speaker
the fact that like you, the player, yeah, no, are supposed to do this. There's. I feel like if you go into any type of medium with like the I'm going to figure this thing out, I don't we're probably not that close of friends. Well, you don't know. You don't even know a mystery there. That's the thing, right? Like it's just a game. And the guy is just saying this is a part of like his speech pattern. Like it's a turn of phrase that he's used to.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. And so you just accept it as, oh, that's the character, that's how he talks. So you literally have no reason to be suspicious up until that point. Yeah. The reasons for suspicion don't reveal the secret, but they are things that should stand out as flags, something that bothers you a little bit. Like when you find out that the bathyspheres are genetically coded,
00:22:07
Speaker
And you're like, I just showed up, though. Right. Like that's not explained. And then later you get the piece of the hand. You're like, oh, Andrew Ryan's son was abducted by the smugglers. And you're like, OK, well, I could kind of see these two sort of relating.
00:22:29
Speaker
But it really, it's really unlikely that it's all going to come together like right before the reveal. But for that reveal, without explicitly telling you, hey, you are mentally conditioned and that is the reason that all of this is going on, like Andrew Ryan starts to like use it on you more aggressively, more obviously, until you're literally just running around kneeling and following his orders, at which point that is the
00:22:58
Speaker
Hopefully it's the reveal, you know, you figure out what's going on. If not, then they literally, you know, do the evil villain explain themselves. Speech after and the heart stop, but.
00:23:13
Speaker
It's such a good lead up, right? Like the intensity of the hints and that like builds along with the feeling of foreboding that you're about to discover something really important. And that's the point. That's what you really want to have. And whatever medium you have, you want that sense of impending importance right before it drops. Yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
I don't have anything to add to those, actually. The syncs are well put together. I really did enjoy that, though. It's one of the reasons that Bioshock is a standout game for me, why I have a Bioshock tattoo. I just got really immersed in the world, like the sound design, like the graphics. All the characters were interesting. And I just got so invested in the story. So when that twist happened, I'm like, oh my god. And it stuck around in my brain for a very, very long time.
00:24:09
Speaker
We're also Andrew Ryan's son, weirdly enough. Yeah, it's odd. There's always a man. Oh, don't forget the lighthouse. That's very, very key. That's the other thing, yeah. Would you say, if we're talking about Bioshock, would you say Bioshock Infinite had a similar type of drop? Or do you think it didn't match up? Or do you think it was way better than Bioshock 1?
00:24:28
Speaker
And it was impactful, similar to Westworld.
00:24:37
Speaker
Right. So this is a complicated question because it is a similar reveal. It's an identity reveal, but it's almost impossible to surpass
00:24:58
Speaker
the earlier one just because, just through the law of repetition, right? Like this is the second time it's happening. How could it possibly hit you as hard for people who played infinite first, maybe, you know, I'm sure going back and like seeing one, they're like, eh, I mean, it's fine or it's good, but the gameplay is not as good or whatever, you know, whatever you want to throw in there. Um, but it's, it's definitely,
00:25:24
Speaker
more narratively, like they knew out the gate, they're like, our story is built around literally this twist. And it's going to be, cause like the twist in Bioshock one was not actually story impactful at all. Like it, yes, as you're going through the plot,
00:25:48
Speaker
you were fulfilling all of these touchstones leading up to reveal. Yeah, but you're not a character in Bioshock 1. It's not as emotionally impactful because you are literally a silent protagonist. You're just a player going through a game, and you're experiencing the world of Bioshock. Exactly. So it's still a really cool story reveal, but it doesn't impact your interaction with the game so much. You're just like, oh, shit. And that's kind of it.
00:26:12
Speaker
It's still really fucking cool. But like, as you're saying with Bioshock Infinite, like you have the relationship with Elizabeth and like that shapes and colors the whole fucking game. But you're also the character of Booker DeWitt, who has a personality and hawks. You could replace Jack in Bioshock 1 with Ramirez. And it would have been the same game, basically. Maybe you wouldn't have relied on plasmids as much.
00:26:42
Speaker
But yeah, like I would, I would say it's crafted more holistically better into the narrative of Bioshock infinite. And I mean, it's, it's really good. The reveal in Bioshock infinite is really good. If I were to say objectively, having like, if I hadn't played both games, if I were to recommend one, I would recommend three. I'd recommend Bioshock infinite, um, for the twist first.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, same. And I don't think there is a twist in two. Well, we're spoiling Biotech games to some degree or another. There's not one at all to the same extent, at least. Hard to say. It's impossible. I think it's just like some side story stuff or some chapters maybe in two.
00:27:29
Speaker
It's it's more about like a relationship. Like the entire game is pretty much about the relationship between Delta and. Wow, I almost said Elizabeth again. I can't remember her name. Can't remember her name. Anyways, little sister, that's fine. I want to ask you another quick one on video game related, and I won't spoil this one. I don't want to go into detail because it I still think it's worth people going to watch if they haven't seen it.
00:27:59
Speaker
Have you seen Old Boy? Oh, so I know what the spoiler is, but I've never seen it. That's okay. So I will say that the movie itself is just great for so many reasons. But when they do their reveal, again, I don't think there's really any lead ups to it, any hints.
00:28:26
Speaker
But like the whole movie, like you don't understand why the events are happening. Neither does the main character issue very much along for the ride with them. It is, it is a huge drop. Yeah. It's another one that demonetizes the podcast. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, no twists. Twist can be really hard to do because if you do them too often, it reduces the impact. Or if you screw it up anywhere along the way, it reduces the impact. And a bad twist is so much worse than no twist. I'm not Shyamalan. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like if you're going to have a series
00:29:08
Speaker
I don't really know how many twists you can do because you don't want to have the expectation of what you're waiting for the twist. And then each episode, what is it? But it would be weird if you want to have a major drop like that revealed to the viewer or a reader.
00:29:28
Speaker
to only have one, but not have it like towards the end. Because it should be impactful. There should be more lead up and build up. You don't want to do that in like episode two, season one. And then you have like five seasons.
00:29:43
Speaker
It's really tricky because if you're talking about shows, realistically, shows don't know how many seasons they're going to get. This is one of the big reasons that shows tend to suck beyond the first couple is it can be a complete waste of time to be like, yeah, we're going to get 10 seasons of Avatar The Last Airbender. Why wouldn't? You have to be able to pace the content delivery
00:30:09
Speaker
so that you're fulfilling the story that you're trying to tell, but not overstaying your welcome if executives are just like, shut the whole thing down. Because those are disappointing shows too, right? They were leading up to something and they just cut it off. That's how you end up with shows like Firefly, where it was just like, hey, what's our combination gonna be? And they're like, freaking great season by season. And the executives are like, it's too fun, kill it.
00:30:38
Speaker
Wait, the show or what? That's also been out forever. I don't care. Yes, that one. That one happened in the movie. Most shows you not get that opportunity to close the loop by having a movie to culminate at all. Yeah, it's fucking Evangelion. It. I feel like you have to write for exactly one season.
00:31:07
Speaker
and then treat everything else as hopefully you can build off of it, but.
00:31:14
Speaker
I don't know. It's, it's hard to like, yeah. Hey, I want to have like this cool thing. And you're like, I'm gonna do for one season. They're like, Hey, you're green lit for second season. You're like, shit. I didn't plan for two seasons. So how do you extend everything that you wrapped up in season one without possibly retconning something and fucking over the whole anime? Yeah, it's, it's really hard. Honestly, like probably the easiest approach that can still be impactful to pay off is you have ties between one season and the next season.
00:31:44
Speaker
You might disappoint a little bit if your season gets canceled a little early, but it's just this loop of, all right, we're establishing hooks, we're going to deliver on them. We're establishing hooks, you're going to deliver on them. But it's not going to be as good as a slow burn that's even longer.
00:32:04
Speaker
I will say certain shows that are more, I want to say suspense oriented have a better chance of success at that. One thing that sticks out for me is we watched Dexter a lot in college. Right. And every episode, episode, episode was an hour long, like who's getting murdered? Is he going to get caught? It was always very tense because you didn't know where it was going to going, where it was going to go or something was going to get fucked up.
00:32:33
Speaker
And I really feel like the show peaked at the end of season four. I felt like things were wrapped up nicely for everybody's arcs. And then they went another four seasons and then they just did another season. So did they actually? Yup. It's on like Hulu or something. And it's, I watched an episode that was like free or something. It's not for me. Yeah. I don't know. It was easier to, sorry.
00:33:01
Speaker
It's easier to have something like that where there's always the suspense because let's say the season ends and you don't know if there's going to be another show. You're like still like, Oh, what's going to happen next? But for every episodes like that, it's not as much of a break if they're like, Hey, there's no more seasons. Yeah. It ends kind of how you expected it to anyway. Yeah. It's always nice when a show can just like,
00:33:24
Speaker
Wow. That was dramatic. That was a great cap. Um, this is exactly where it should end. Yeah. I'll, I'll know a season one. Great stuff. Um, thank you. Thank you for that. It's been years. I don't remember anything about this back and forth.
00:33:40
Speaker
Um, but just hearing him say that and having it recorded is, oh, it feels good. Uh, it's funny that it'd be hilarious to get as many mentions as we get in here without actually spoiling anything because we've mentioned a lot of topics. There's not all that much that we've spoiled. Um,
00:33:58
Speaker
There's one other show that's very indie. Not many people have seen it called Game of Thrones. And this is the, I'm not even going to spoil it.
Critique of Game of Thrones and Literature
00:34:08
Speaker
It doesn't even matter. It's not going to be satisfying if I did. People have probably already seen it, but.
00:34:12
Speaker
This is the anti-example of how you do twists or payoffs or anything like that. It's like build it all up, don't use any of it. None of it mattered.
00:34:30
Speaker
That is the worst. This is actually I described how like a bad twist is worse than no twist. And this is like an anti twist is even worse than a bad twist. So you had like all the components ready for some grand payoff. And you just don't use anything.
00:34:49
Speaker
Somebody's getting invested in the show. You're like, oh my God, this character knit. Oh, and they said this one thing. Oh, and then it just now we just never had it on screen again. Exactly. Literally never show up again. Yeah.
00:35:04
Speaker
You know, that was one of the things like as that show was coming out, like the fan base who cared. It's like me and some other people like in our friend group, we're like talk, like, Oh, you see last week's episode? Yeah. Like, what do you think is going to happen with such and such? Like, Oh, well in the books, so this character is this. And like, you have this fun theory crafting in your community of where's it going to go next? Yeah. Are they going to use this thing or when's this happening? And then I know at least for, I think Ren free.
00:35:33
Speaker
I'm not sure. There was basically some other bastard son of Robert Baratheon. It wasn't run for somebody else. And you're like, oh, he's technically an heir to the throne that could lay claim. And then there's like, nah, he's never going to be here again. And you're like, oh, OK. But even in the show, it wasn't like something just from the book. They actually built him up. They were like, hey, I'm so and so his kid smiles at the camera. You're like, oh my god.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's Podrick or something like that. Cause it's the, uh, the other guy, right? Like the blacksmith, the Smith. Yeah. Yeah. Pod the rod. Um, is it gentry? Maybe it's gentry. It might be gentry. I think it's gentry. He's it's a hundred percent getting his Podrick.
00:36:27
Speaker
Who is like the fat kid who made bread that Ari was friends with? Okay. So I'm searching for both of these pictures and I'm both of these characters and I'm getting the same picture. So maybe I had an alias and the alter ego. That's it. Is that it?
00:36:47
Speaker
I don't know, it's been too long. It's impossible to know. None of this made any sense. They just used the same character and we just now realize it's the same guy playing two people. I will say that seems to be symptomatic of only like...
00:37:02
Speaker
TV shows though, film is obviously written for, Hey, here's like your two to two and a half hours of like, this is the story. Yeah. Obviously you can have sequels under shit, but also games are in the way of also can have sequels and shit, but it's here's what it is. It was designed for this exact length and then shows have a little more variability.
00:37:26
Speaker
I'm not going to go much into literature because that's not our domain. There's other podcasts for that. But I've read two authors in my lifetime and Dr. Seuss. That makes three. And Brandon Sanderson is really good at this. Dave knew it was coming because it's
00:37:46
Speaker
It's one of the two. Statistically, it's this Robert Jordan. Funny thing being Brandon Sanderson actually finished the Wheel of Time series for Robert Jordan after he passed. But there's he's got series where it's like something seemingly inconsequential happens. And it's something else happens and it's like to it. It's not a coincidence. It's like it's not obvious, but they're they're related.
00:38:16
Speaker
but you don't put together that they're related until later. So he does twists in a way that he's not always building forward, right? Where it's like, he knows what the twist will be because he outlines the entire story beforehand. And so he can go back and say, here's where things started to intersect and there were sparks when these two things came together. And
00:38:43
Speaker
It's not obvious like why the sparks happened and the reader may have questions about it or maybe they don't even notice. But then once the reveal happens, it's like. Was that mentioned in three previous books, like? And that's crazy. Yeah, it's I love that. I love the good. I got goosebumps describing like a fictional situation. I didn't even. Oh, the books arrived. That's cool. Yeah.
00:39:14
Speaker
Um, but that's really cool. And it only happens if the writers have, uh, you know, a cohesive story that they're telling from telling from start to finish. Yeah. Cohesion, whether it's ingredients in a sandwich or storytelling is so fucking important. Cause otherwise it literally all falls apart. You thought my metaphor was shit. You're wrong. Yeah. But it,
00:39:43
Speaker
If you're somebody who cares about it, literally without that, things just don't line up or make sense or they seem very random and it's hard for your brain to piece things together because they literally don't belong as far as you're concerned. Right.
00:39:58
Speaker
And it just it sucks for storytelling like have you ever talked to somebody and they're like relating a story of hey I was at somebody's house over the weekend and these things happen But the series of events you're getting are very disjointed and out of place. Like how does that connect? Who's how does so-and-so know Samantha and huh trying to keep track of all that sucks because it's not laid out in a way that makes sense. Mm-hmm
00:40:22
Speaker
funny thing here is you're still describing Westworld, actually. Season one. But that had a payoff. And you didn't know the ordering was weird. Until later.
00:40:35
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Like I like when things can play off of the human brain for like, Oh, you just expect something to be what it is because, Oh, it just, you assume that's part of the medium that, Oh, that's just how TV works.
Indie Games vs AAA: Innovation and Creativity
00:40:50
Speaker
Or you assume something in a game and then you have your expectations subverted because they're like, Oh, you are going to do that. Aren't you? Right.
00:40:59
Speaker
Love it. It's good. No, no, it's good stuff. I like it. I like, I like mind games. Um, I also like pray. I'm not going to really even talk about pray and I haven't even thought about praying before you said bio shock. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, pray doesn't, as I recall, well, yeah, I'm not going to spoil prayer. You can get, come anywhere close. I won't describe whether it's in this category or not, but I do like the story.
00:41:28
Speaker
It's good. It's it's been out for like a while. Do we have an episode on Prey? I feel like we must have. Maybe. I will say it was recently for you at the game store, not that it does anything for you now. Right.
00:41:44
Speaker
but still a solid pickup still recommended as a game. There's like no, no chance. Yeah, we did do pray. It was, uh, 20. Oh, okay. Uh, so how early was 2020? Okay. That was cool. Yeah. February 2nd, 2020.
00:42:06
Speaker
I don't even remember having a special episode for that, but yeah, that was a Prey episode released in 2020, 2020, 2020. It does not surprise me that we covered it because we both really enjoyed it. I know I jumped on the train much later, but after I played it, I was like, why did you not make me play it earlier? Yeah. No, it's really good. It's really good.
00:42:31
Speaker
I do want to play Mooncrash a little bit. I installed it and I was like, all right, let's go. And then I've been playing Star Sector, but I beat it. Star Sector is done. That's why I was being social yesterday. Oh, I completed all the content in that game, which I'm not even going to describe because trying to talk about space games in a podcast is more of a waste of time than talking about other games in a podcast. That's how bad it is. But yeah, Mooncrash, I want to see it because
00:43:01
Speaker
of what was the uh geez can't remember the youtube channel they do long-form documentaries um nope no clip no clip yeah yeah um they did a document documentary is the way i was going to say that i'll just go with it
00:43:17
Speaker
um, on death loop and specifically they were like, Hey, actually they, they opened talking about death loop. And then they're like, just kidding. This is about prey moon crash. Cause they're like, we made the same game, but we changed enough that it's death loop and it's this massively successful game. Whereas moon crash, like three people played it.
00:43:42
Speaker
Well, to be fair, Mooncrash was a DLC and probably not marketed in the same way that Deathloop was. No. Where Deathloop was much more, and I don't could use this word enough, bombastic in its marketing. It was the style of the game.
00:43:59
Speaker
And like literally didn't play it because we wouldn't shut up about it. I still think it's a good game, but it doesn't like it doesn't stick with me like sci-fi prey setting does like. But yeah, Deathloop is it's great, but it's very much it's kind of optimized. It's a very streamlined. This is a game for you to play and enjoy with social and music and all this stuff, you know,
00:44:29
Speaker
Most games have music. I don't know if I'm referencing to my point very well, but it's like I Don't want to say it's for casuals But it's a game that Absolutely, they polished off the all the edges off of it So it doesn't try many things that are Too exciting as a side effect. Mm-hmm. Loved it. By the way, I got 100% all the achievements
00:44:55
Speaker
I don't think everything needs to be super niche and unique. It just needs to be fun at the end of the day. I was watching some of the summer games with Jeff Keeley, who often gives me feelings when I'm driving around on my Heelys. I've been sitting on that rhyme for too many hours, honestly. It's like, as the minutes tick by, I'm just like, all right, let's stop talking about Game of Thrones. My notepad's open, says Heely Feely and Keely.
00:45:24
Speaker
But a lot of the indie games in that that were shown or showcased didn't necessarily catch my interest because they didn't necessarily look fun to me. I'm actually going to kneecap my point of I've played enough stuff where I either want something to be fun and familiar or it needs to break new ground for me to be like, oh, that's something new and exciting. My brain can attach on to that. There's a website for that.
00:45:54
Speaker
Oh, something that would help me break new ground? Yeah. Yeah. Albino Black Sheep. That's it. The Home of Flash games. Armor games. Congregate. Yeah, I'm familiar.
00:46:09
Speaker
We had an episode on that too. Sorry. I completely derailed your point. Oh, you're fine. I, I derailed earlier. I was like, I have to keep talking about this one thing, which I don't even remember what it was now, but some of the things in there for the summer games did look interesting to me, but more of them were like the same people who did.
00:46:32
Speaker
Dead space did another type of game and a similar space. I forget who the company is. I feel like it's visceral owned by EA. I mean, that would double track.
00:46:46
Speaker
But it just seemed like a more modern dead space, which is looked more interesting to me than the dead space remake that they're doing, a remaster. Gotcha. There's some other ones in there that looked interesting. But a lot of the indie space seemed like somebody wanted to tell a story or be like, hey, this is interesting to me as the developer. And awesome. I love you. I support you. But for me personally, those ones just didn't.
00:47:11
Speaker
They didn't do it for me, you know? I like that. I really like that line. It's like, I love you. I support you. I will not be giving you any money. I support you emotionally, not fiscally. We'll pay you an exposure. Yeah. No, I mean, that's fair. I think, I mean, it hasn't changed. It's been true for like a very long time, but indie games are the
00:47:40
Speaker
they are the savior of the industry.
00:47:45
Speaker
Even if AAA games are good, and they are often good, Elden Ring is a pretty good game. I have a topic I want to talk about regarding that later. There we go. That's the obligatory Elden Ring aside. At the end of the day, indie games are the ones where people are like, I really want to make this. So I'm going to make it good. And it's going to be full of heart and full of passion. And that's how you get stuff like Celeste and Amore.
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah, Amore. Amore fucking Slaps, I still think about. And Deltarune, those games stick with me because it was an experience for me. Yeah. It wasn't just a game. Yeah. But I don't know if
00:48:31
Speaker
somebody just showed me a trailer of like, here's this thing. I don't know if it necessarily catch my interest. I think a lot of them were like, right time, right place. Yeah. How do you trailer trailer Amore, right? Like it's basically impossible. Celeste is a lot easier to trailer for. Play the music. You don't even need video and you're done. You're like, Cheryl, buy it. Yeah. Um, I don't know.
00:49:00
Speaker
I always enjoy that indie games are attempting something. A lot of them are still amazing. Just because I wasn't necessarily a fan of it doesn't mean it didn't reach out to a whole community of people.
00:49:16
Speaker
Like it's just certain ones stood out to me, but if it wasn't for them, I, I feel like I'd still just be stuck in the triple A space of we call a duty sucks to keep making more NBA games and NFL. Um, but I pick like, Oh, it's just from soft games. I like it. Nothing else. But there are other games in triple A and indie that explore more, but typically it's more, indie is the passion project because
00:49:45
Speaker
AAA games want something that's a little more safe and consistent and they know it's going to make sales. Whereas a lot of indie games tend to be wild cards in comparison. You really don't know how it's going to do until it takes off.
00:49:58
Speaker
There's like, there's a scale. They're safe and then there's different. And the further you go to different, the further you are away from safe. And AAA games will pretty much always be, they will live in the immediate orbit of safe. Sometimes they get a little bit further out and you're just like, nice. But very often it's gonna be pretty much the same thing you've already seen.
00:50:25
Speaker
But any game, you know, one person makes a game and they it was their side job or something like that. They haven't quit their main job at McDonald's or something like that yet. Like if it fails, that sucks. I mean, you probably put years of your life into it, but.
00:50:42
Speaker
but they can basically afford to be crazy with it. You know, it can be a passion project and they're not beholden to someone saying like, I don't think that's going to focus test very well. You know? Yeah. So taking this podcast as a podcast is a medium. Obviously we speak to that. We speak to the dead. We specifically play the audio at local graveyards.
00:51:13
Speaker
Not even for like the graveyard attendant when he comes by we turn it off But we just do this ourselves and we definitely will talk amongst ourselves of like hey We might want to change something up here there or I thought this worked or maybe this didn't work so well But we don't have any oversight Because we do this for fun. It's a passion project versus
00:51:37
Speaker
We're trying to make a sponsor, somebody else happy. And then we feel we have to curb our words or reach certain topics specifically or avoid certain topics like China or Blizzard. I really like the open format of, hey, here's something that we want to talk about and that we're passionate about. Let's share our thoughts and opinions on it. Right.
00:52:01
Speaker
The problem is, now that we've shown that we'll go four years without a sponsorship, who's going to give us one, right? They'll just be like, ah, mention our product. We're not going to tell you anything.
Personal Reflections and Podcasting as a Passion
00:52:14
Speaker
We're not going to give you any money. It'll support us emotionally. Emotionally, yes. But we'll get exposure by talking about other people's products on our show.
00:52:28
Speaker
Let's just shout out another podcast each time. Yeah. Until one of them just shouts back. It's like a ping. Yeah. Synax. Wow, I just realized that doesn't make any sense if you say it out loud in a podcast. You sound a little bit like the Jaden Smith. Realize, realize, realize. Yeah, yeah. So anyways, that was, I figured a
00:52:56
Speaker
nice warmup on, on Westworld. We can cover the rest of the topics we had slated for this episode now. So in the news. No, I think that's separate now. We don't even talk about news during talkcast, explicitly avoid it. Yeah. I've, I've derailed Jake's news so many times that we were talking about just making it its own episode. Yeah.
00:53:23
Speaker
I do like it. I was thinking about that earlier. I was like, what's the best sarcastic way to introduce a different format? I mean, it would make sense to also introduce the format at the beginning of the other format. But basically, we're on a sliding slope. We're become more and more lazy and more resistant to actually putting effort into anything. And whatever that ultimate format is, we'll have four of those each month. And that's where the podcast is going.
00:53:53
Speaker
No, as we've said before, there's so many games that come out and we play a lot of the same games. Yeah. Jason playing Star Sector for like two or three weeks. Yeah. And I don't even know anything about it. We were probably not going to cover it as an episode, but he enjoyed playing it and like I've been playing Dota 2. Yeah. But like we've already talked about it, no reason to really
00:54:17
Speaker
delve back into it. Um, but I don't want to like be spending money on a new game each week and be like, kind of play through enough to talk about it. A lot of popular YouTuber. I'm just a guy talking with his buddy. Yeah.
00:54:32
Speaker
They don't even give us free games. We're not that big yet for us to play. I do have an aside, like a brief story though, because you were talking about like, you haven't heard anything about Star Sector. I'm not going to describe Star Sector by the way. This is a meta story. But I like, I accomplished something in the game and I was like, sweet. This is like, I've got my colony running or something like that. I figured out some mechanic. Achieving a milestone within the game, something I want to finish before I'm done with it.
00:55:00
Speaker
and I'm describing it to Jenny and she's sitting there at the computer and I'm standing up kind of like walking around describing this as a crazy person does and it just struck me that nothing I was saying was interesting. Like it's the rare moment of clarity. I think we've all had a situation where someone's talking to us and we're like,
00:55:26
Speaker
I don't want that anymore. What they're saying is just the most boring thing. You have your energy bar for how committed you would be to the conversation as it's going on. These are dangerously low levels. What would be the cost if I just laughed socially?
00:55:49
Speaker
Um, but as I was walking around and she was kind of like staring at me, I realized that she was like a trapped puppy basically. And that, uh, she was like, I'm not sure what's going to happen next.
00:56:01
Speaker
but I don't like the situation because she was doing something else. And I just start talking to her about this random crap and mechanics and spreadsheets and stuff. And I was like, OK, just finish this thought as quickly as I can. Then I went and I used the restroom. And I apologized because I just realized everything I just said was the most boring nonsense imaginable. And she just left. She didn't deny it.
00:56:31
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure it goes both ways with all relationships where somebody's really passionate about something and you just don't have the same level of investment, but you're excited for them, so you want to cure them out. Yeah. But even so, at a point, I feel like everybody has a threshold of, dear God. Uh-huh. Yeah. I was recently at a Turkey Hill. I just went for an energy drink and some gum. And there's an older guy in front of me, and he had the look of somebody who
00:57:00
Speaker
If you're like, pick somebody who's a conspiracy theorist of this lineup of people, you'd be like, yeah. And like, you seem nice enough. Um, but I had just recently asked the lady at the cash register where the gum was and she like led me to employment. Oh, thanks. So I went and got back in line and this guy was checking out and he was like talking and her expression and also what she was saying was very much like an uncle at a picnic who was like drunk and you're like, yup.
00:57:28
Speaker
Uh-huh. That's cool. And just waiting for them to be done and leave. And she's like, yeah, I'll definitely have to check that out. And I was like, oh, I went 100% on board with what's going on. Because he was probably suggesting something to her or maybe spelling a conspiracy theory. She was just not interested, not on board.
00:57:47
Speaker
but she's, you know, stuck there as that's her job and not trying to be rude to a customer. So she's just trying to like move it along. But I sympathize with her in that moment because I recognize the situation like, yeah. Yeah. That's actually that's the number one sign of true love is when someone does that and it's not their job actually to sit there and listen to you. Find those people, keep them close.
00:58:17
Speaker
Or just do a podcast with them, you know? No, for sure. I don't have any other topics. I can't think of any exciting anecdotes from recently outside of that one story. That's fair. Yeah. I guess we can just wait it out in silence for the last, uh, last few minutes.
00:58:43
Speaker
Yeah, let's do it. Let's commit to the bit. Look at me in the eyes for two minutes, silently. That's impossible. It's literally impossible. I can think of nothing more awkward than doing that. See, but I would derive enjoyment from you visibly feeling awkward. Yeah. It's like I'm losing energy and Dave's just vampire.
00:59:07
Speaker
I would say I'm gaining energy. I would just find it amusing because we've created an awkward situation.
00:59:16
Speaker
No, that's fair. Oh, I was going to say for the Elden Ring thing. Um, I was actually talking to a coworker and, um, actually, why don't I say coworker?
Gaming Mods and Cultural Impact
00:59:25
Speaker
I think we've, we've had him on the show. So Nate, friend of the show, Nate was telling me, um, that he's been playing through, uh, that's going to, I'm never going to live down there. Just like, yeah, coworker, not a person that we've had on the show. He's telling me he's been playing a mod in Elden Ring and the mod is called seamless co-op.
00:59:47
Speaker
What this mod does, I looked it up while we were talking about it and he was also describing it to me. So he gets credit for that. Um, usually after a co-op event, like you beat a boss, the person vanishes. That doesn't happen anymore.
01:00:04
Speaker
person sticks around if like one of the people teleports somewhere, the other person follows them. You switch areas, that person's always there with you. If either of you die, respawn at the bonfire. So shared life in that regard. But otherwise, go through the game and play in co-op, like the whole thing.
01:00:26
Speaker
I really want to do that. It's a really cool sound. Like it's a really cool idea. We were even briefly talking about just doing like new game plus, getting some people together and going like squad deep where everybody has a different class. This person is the person with two hammers. This is our mage. This is the person who's very committed to doing only a roll build. That just sounds fun. Yeah.
01:00:49
Speaker
That would be my hook to go back and do it with somebody else. Yeah, always good to do it with someone else. Yeah, that's obvious joke. Okay, that's the sex motion. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I guess there's some caveats on it. Like the save game data is stored on the host safe. I have no idea how they did that.
01:01:11
Speaker
I don't know how they did that from a file integrity perspective and elven ring, but that's the way it works. I assume you just have another file to essentially save the guests data. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly, but I guess it's all stored on the main computer. I don't know. We can figure it out.
01:01:34
Speaker
And then Nate said that there were some issues with the invasions. If you're invaded by an NPC, it would have some aspects of something online networking is supposed to happen here. And the game is not happy with that. So you might have to stop.
01:01:53
Speaker
drop you know drop connection actually deal with the invasion and then like resume the co-op thing um stop it drop wait a bit and resume the co-op yeah doesn't doesn't quite work uh but it's really cool and i was impressed because like nothing like this ever came out for like dark souls 3 and i don't think there was a major difference so
01:02:17
Speaker
I mean, the game's not been out that long that I would expect massive online mods like this to change it, but like, I don't know. It's cool. Yeah. I really like the possibility of that. Outside of just seeing people do different skins. Hey, you know, uh, Armstrong, he's this boss. Okay. Thomas, the tank engine. No way. I just, I still appreciate it. Um, but this is something I would actually engage with.
01:02:48
Speaker
You know, your game has made it when there's Thomas the Tank Engine mods. That's actually the one litmus test. Cause I remember there was the mod for Skyrim that replaced the dragons with Thomas the Tank Engine. And that's how that was when they made it. Todd Howard shed a tear knowing that all of his, all of his mountains had been crested. That was it. And then he went on to make Skyrim a billion more times. Thomas the Tank Engine mods. Never, never ever stopped.
01:03:19
Speaker
Speaking of never stopping, if you have any ideas for future episodes, you could send those in to soapstonepodcast.gml.com or you can join the discussion on Facebook at facebook.com slash soapstone podcast. Always happy to meet the fans. We're looking for suggestions for the names, the pet name for people who listen to the podcast.
01:03:45
Speaker
I've got nothing. Soap stoners is what it can't be. That was my first go-to joke. Like, this is so easy. Yeah, but if you have that or other suggestions, you know, feel free to vote on them because we definitely have that mechanism in place. But as always, we'll see you in the next one. Have a good night.