Zencastr
00:00:00
00:00:01
Speed1x
Format▸
Share
Embed
Report

Episode 20:The Kid Who Got in Trouble for Shining Lights in Church Now Gets Paid to Do It. A conversation with Stephen Proctor

One Great Question
One Great Question

11 plays · Aug 17, 2026

Stephen Proctor is an artist of light. He flies drones over glaciers in New Zealand, projects forests onto the walls of the Washington National Cathedral, and lives in a cabin in the Pacific Northwest woods that he named Rivendell. He got in trouble as a kid for shining a laser pointer in church. He now gets paid to illuminate churches. He'll tell you eight-year-old Stephen is absolutely losing his mind. In this episode, Stephen and I dig into what it looks like to leave a creative mecca before it turns you cynical, why re-enchantment is the most important thing artists can offer a disenchanted world, what it cost him to work behind the scenes with people the world puts on pedestals, and why slowing down is not just an artistic choice but a philosophy of life. Stephen also shares the three questions that changed everything for him. One from a mentor in New Zealand who asked what it would look like to put a single photograph on a screen and just let it breathe for an entire song. One from a friend sitting in a hot tub under the stars in California asking what it would look like to flip the model and create something entirely his own. And one about how you take your coffee that quietly started it all. He closes by reading from his late Uncle Steve's worn paperback copy of The Fellowship of the Ring. And honestly, there was no better way to end it. So here's the question I want to leave you with. You're busy, you're moving, you're consuming, you're producing. But when's the last time you just sat still long enough to let something beautiful actually do something to you? * Book: Wild Wonder: What Nature Teaches Us About Slowing Down and Living Well — available on Amazon * Company: Illuminate [https://illuminate.us/stephenproctor] (Stephen's creative company) * Instagram: @stephenproctor [https://www.instagram.com/sproctor/?hl=en]

Transcript

Carl Lubbe: Hey friends and welcome to another episode of One Great Question. And today we have ah like a creative genius. I'm sure Stephen would not like me saying that, but it's true because every once in a while you'll come across an artist where you go, hold on, you do what with what? and You've maybe heard of people using pastels, you've heard of people using woodwork.

Carl Lubbe: I don't know until I really came across Steven and then saw his work and we were connected, I mean, probably 15, 20 years ago now in Nashville.

Stephen: Thank you.

Carl Lubbe: I was like, wait, you're an artist of light? And then I got to see it. Like it was explained to me, which I would never would have got understood. And then the room went dark and then I saw an artist at work with light. And and so, you know, these visual environmental things and Stephen has gotten to do it, you know, in tours in the US, has gone all the way to places like, ah you know, New Zealand, just to make you jealous when he's you know playing in the same places where Lord of the Rings was was filmed and everything in between has been with amazing thinkers like Beth Moore.

Carl Lubbe: And on tour buses, raising, you know, millions of dollars for kids who need it all over the planet. And so and even more than all of those things, even more than the genius and the ability is just a really kind human. And when I call him, he doesn't know or own me anything. And he says, yeah, man, let's hang out. Let's have a talk. And so we'd love to introduce all of you guys to the wonderful Stephen Proctor. Thanks for being here, Stephen.

Stephen: Thanks, Carl. Appreciate it Yeah, great to meet you, everyone.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah,

Stephen: thank break and rape Great to reconnect. This is fun.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: I love it.

Carl Lubbe: So when we first met, it was in you know Franklin, Tennessee, all those years ago around a really fun conference. And as I said, like you, your your magic was on full display. And then the next time I you know had kind of come across the work was obviously I was following you on social. But then you did this really interesting thing where you're like, hey, I'm going to I'm going leave the epicenter of my work. And then I'm going to move somewhere and do something really maybe that I don't know if anybody in your family had done this. So maybe tell um the the my mom and the three other people who are watching and listening to this. what it is you decided to do to leave the comfort of Nashville and everything you had done.

Stephen: Oh, yeah. It's so funny. um Yeah, 2017, a friend of mine... is it seventeen um a friend of mine um who was used to live in Nashville and I was now in ah New York was up in Seattle. um And ah he was like, it was the dead. It was this time of year. it was like end of July, dead of summer.

Stephen: um and one thing we do, we're, we're just like constantly complaining about the heat, the humidity, the mosquitoes, just like, we're both like, we both work in we both work in like video production, he's film, I'm other things.

Carl Lubbe: Man, the sound is a thing.

Stephen: And like, Here's the deal. Our backpacks are very, very heavy. People are like, hey, let pick up your backpack for you. And I'm like, sure, here you go. And they're good Lord, what's in this?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And I'm like, that's a light day. That's a light day.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: That's nothing. They're like, what have you got in here? And I'm like, my work. Tech heavy. Anyway. Jeez.

Carl Lubbe: The weighted best trend that hit, you were like, I've been planning for this for 15 years. I'm ahead of the curve.

Stephen: ease ah So anyway, we're he's up in Seattle and is like, dude, it is gorgeous up here. I'm outside all day long, not breaking a sweat and mosquitoes are not taking care, you know, carrying me away.

Stephen: And ah I was like...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: I'd been in Nashville for, i don't 14, 13 years at that point. i don't 15. don't even, I lost count, but I was like, dude, I'm, I think I'm ready for a change. Like I love Nashville, but I don't like it right now.

Stephen: um A lot of my people are there. They're still there. i still go there all the time for work and you know get to hang out with people. But I was like, man, ah especially since I started flying drones and getting really into like landscape cinematography, aerial photography, bringing that into my live event work, um i i was like, I'm tired of you know working with nature imagery or create you know beautiful imagery you of of outside all the time.

Stephen: and not being immersed in it myself. And I was constantly being immersed in, you know, rush hour traffic, 24 seven Nashville overpriced drinks, you know, like pretentious restaurants and coffee shops, you know, that woed I was just like, at some point it's when it's all new and exciting and the growth, it's like, especially if you've been in Nashville already,

Stephen: and i moved I moved to Nashville back when they would call it Old Nashville, and now it's like hashtag New Nashville, which got really expensive. Anyway, I just, you know, at some point you just go like, I'm getting really bored here. And if I continue to get bored, even though I'm busy and I love my people here, but I'm getting creatively, even spiritually, mentally, I'm getting bored.

Stephen: bored with this mecca of creativity that tends to be... And I love Nashville, but like this this entertainment culture and and other entertainment cultures are like this in other places, but it starts to get very inward-facing and kind of navel-gazing. And I was just like, there's a bigger, wider world out there, guys. And like I know everyone travels you know in Nashville, but like aye You know, there's a scene in Lord of the Rings to just go, just like, let's just get right into like the best story ever told.

Stephen: um Lord of the Rings, remember when, um you know,

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, let's get it.

Stephen: at the very beginning when Belbo tells Gandalf, I want to see mountains again, Gandalf, mountains, and then find some place to finish my book or in the book, find some place to rest. You know, I started to really feel that I was just like, I want to see mountains again.

Stephen: I'm ready to see trees and forests and rivers and lakes. Like, and I do get to do that some with my travels, but, um but I'm ready for it to be the norm and not the exception.

Stephen: And I wonder what would happen. And I asked this question to myself, what would that look like for that to become my normal to where I was reconnected to nature and fully immersed in it in my own way in a setting of my, um maybe not just the setting of my choosing, but just, um,

Stephen: something different that's a little bit slower and quieter and more majestic to look at rather than the convergence of interstate 40 65, which my house sat right next to.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: on the you know i could just constant interstate just everywhere you go, just traffic, noise, city, and i And I don't regret that part of my life, but I was ready to move on and I was starting to get bored. And I knew if I was going to get bored, e then i get cynical and i start you know cracking jokes and and being ah humorous in ways that are not as healthy.

Stephen: And then I just get depressed and angry, you know? like And that was definitely happening a lot in summertime because i just I don't want to walk outside and just completely just melt into a puddle, especially having just gotten out of the shower, you know?

Carl Lubbe: Right.

Stephen: like And you're just...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: you're just inside, just, you know, cranking that AC. i was just like, this is, this is just affecting me way too much. And, um, the Pacific Northwest is like, I'm so I'm in Washington state.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: Um, and I've, and I found a place in the Columbia river gorge, just outside of Portland, Oregon. And, um, also just being surrounded so much by, um I'm i'm a Christian,

Stephen: I still am. But when you are so of living in a place that is defined by that and it's and it is the norm instead of the exception, it it comes with its own shadow side to me.

Carl Lubbe: Sure.

Stephen: And it comes with its own baggage especially when you work in the industry that is, and there's multiple industries in Nashville, but Christianity and religion is and is a big industry there ah for better and for worse. and there's There's good things about that and there's not good things about that that it that it creates.

Stephen: And um if I don't know if you've turned on the news, but Portland, Oregon is not exactly the Christian Mecca, you know, and ah things are a little different politically out here. And, you know, I i like that. I like i like being in a place that um where people have different thoughts and you can't just expect that most people are going to church on Sunday, you know, and just getting and involved with just real people.

Carl Lubbe: the

Stephen: Anyway, I'm rabbit trailing, but all that this is, I, I,

Carl Lubbe: No, it's great.

Stephen: I decided to go on an adventure and to say, you know what? i love Nashville, but i need to I need to kind of see what's going on out in other some other places. And so um I gave it a year trial just to be like, I didn't sell the house yet. I just put that on the Airbnb, let it do its thing, make me some money.

Stephen: Got an apartment and that in Portland

Stephen: and um made sure the the the early midlife crisis wasn't you know, too severe and I wasn't making a rash decision. But then I was like, I love it out here.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: i absolutely love it. um And, and so that began ah a whole adventure of getting a cabin, which I'm sitting in here, ah built out in ah the woods, which you can see out here.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: Man. Yeah.

Stephen: That was a nice forest.

Carl Lubbe: You're on private Rivendell there.

Stephen: Yeah. My own, and I and i named it Rivendell because I'm a Lord of the Rings nerd.

Carl Lubbe: Okay.

Stephen: And if we if we talk about Lord of the Rings anymore, you know, i i we can turn this into a Silmarillion podcast if you want to, and I'm here for it.

Carl Lubbe: Let's just do it. Let's just do And if it, you know, my my dual fandom of this, I was in Oxford last month with the family.

Stephen: so Anyway.

Stephen: Oh.

Carl Lubbe: And ah so we went out and we, you know, did a little Inklings kind of walkabout in Oxford. And then we went north in the Cotswolds. And one of the churches there, the door is the, you know, the inspiration church.

Stephen: You saw it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, I saw it.

Stephen: I want to see it.

Carl Lubbe: and

Stephen: It's so bad.

Carl Lubbe: Well, okay, well, we'll make plans. So it was right next to the place where we were staying.

Stephen: tree.

Carl Lubbe: It was stunning, stunning. And it was really funny to go like, oh, I i don't think I would fit. I might need to be an orc in the Lord of the Rings because me in the doorway, I was like, oh, this is Hobbit sized for sure.

Carl Lubbe: um So or or Elfin, however you want to categorize it.

Stephen: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: And so in this loop, you no go no, go right ahead.

Stephen: and in a t Go ahead. Sorry. i My ADHD will just go like, oh, this and this and this. And then I'll cut you off out of my excitement.

Carl Lubbe: No, listen, i love things

Stephen: I was just going to say in yeah and Japanese tea culture, they every tea house... the entrance is actually a small little hobbit sized little door. And it's like called the, it's like the door of ah humility, the door of humility.

Carl Lubbe: humility to make you bend over.

Stephen: And, and it would, it's like you, even like the old samurais the, you know, the ancient Japan or whatever, it's like, it was so, they have to take their armor and their sword off to like be able to, and you have to get on your knees and,

Carl Lubbe: yeah yeah

Stephen: to like crawl through because this is a place of of hump being humbled and you know, anyway.

Carl Lubbe: yeah and i think what you're pointing there to me is not a rabbit trail in this conversation because i think the thing you and i are most curious about in the world i think is this idea of kindness and curiosity, which breeds the sense of civility.

Carl Lubbe: Because to me, the thing that has enamored me with Japanese culture, or Lord of the Rings, or you moving out to the Pacific Northwest and following the life, it feels very civil.

Carl Lubbe: And I mean that like ah in the like most intricate and connected way in going, it It is civil. It is a ah great kindness to go like, what does it look like for me to slow down, for me to be present? And as you're saying, I can just imagine like, you know, the Tom Cruise character in The Last Samurai where, you know, they're taking off the garb. And it's like, yeah, there's so much going on. You can't enter into a place of peace dressed as a person of war.

Carl Lubbe: And the inside of this tea room is civil and peaceful and connected and slow and beautiful.

Stephen: I mean,

Carl Lubbe: And so I'm curious, you know, the first question we ask on the podcast for most of the guests is, what would the eight-year-old version of you be just stoked out of their mind or amazed by what you are getting to experience in this moment. And like, obviously you've shown us this beautiful property and you're in this stunning cabin that you designed yourself. And you're this artist who's gotten to travel the world. And so a lot of people from the outside might go, oh, it's this, this or this.

Carl Lubbe: And people are always surprised when I answer that I could go to Dairy Queen and order a blizzard anytime I want. That's what my eight-year-old would be shocked by because you know when we came to the States, we arrived with two suitcases and 100 bucks and there just was never enough.

Stephen: No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: you know Money, income, security, all that sort of stuff. So he would be shocked. He'd be like, hey, so can we go get a blizzard? Be like, hell yeah, I got money. We got it. Let's go. you know

Stephen: Let's go.

Carl Lubbe: Basically, I'm now an eight-year-old with a bank account, which is definitely, you know, an onset diabetes I need to worry about. But, you know, for you, I'd be curious, like, what is the eight-year-old version of Stephen going, hold on, we get to do what? Or, hey, wait, what? What's that thing for you that springs to mind?

Stephen: drones oh my gosh I mean like come on

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, come on. Talk to us about that. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. I mean, you made me think of the movie Blank Check. Remember Disney's a Blank Check?

Carl Lubbe: Come on.

Stephen: you know

Carl Lubbe: Oh, what a great movie.

Stephen: shout out Shout out to the elder millennials out here you know rocking it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: if people are, you're not a millennial, you're Gen X.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: I'm like, what? Xenial. Xenial. How about that?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: How about it whatever?

Carl Lubbe: Whatever it is.

Stephen: Yeah, Blank Check where he's just like, oh my gosh.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: You know like you feel like you're you know Macaulay Culkin, Kevin McAllister in New York.

Carl Lubbe: Can do anything. Yeah. Rich you wish. Yeah.

Stephen: I'm going to cheese pizza all for myself while i ride this limo through New York after hanging out with Donald Trump.

Carl Lubbe: In the limo. Looks

Stephen: you know

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Stephen: oh So funny. ah um Drones, man. like i think like and when I was eight was probably when I started, I don't know what year you know what age it was, but Remember those like old RC remote control helicopters?

Carl Lubbe: yes

Stephen: you know like

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: that was That was probably like the coolest toy i could ever imagine that I never got. you know And my parents, i mean, that's no...

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephen: I was okay. you know like christmas was Christmas was fun. you know like it was It was all right. it Don't feel sorry for me. But a remote control helicopter was not in the picture. And that to me was just so the toy beyond all toys, the toy of all toys.

Stephen: And the fact that I can... like I think about it all the time. I'm just like, man, if I was a kid, I'd be freaking out right now. Flying this drone, you know?

Stephen: And just like flying it over wherever I want to. I mean, just like the... And I think that's what I love about the feeling when I'm droning is i One, I'm usually completely by myself out in the wilderness somewhere, you know?

Stephen: i just...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: But then the sensation of flying, because like if I could have a superpower, i'd it'd be flight. Like i need to fly, right? Like I just, and I've got a lot of aviation, you know, in my family and I come from ah of generations of of pilots and I could go go all on about that. My grandmother and everything, but ah but yeah, eight-year-old Steven would be like,

Carl Lubbe: what I have to share this with you because...

Stephen: as As are most kids when I have drones around. like when ah if i Like hanging out with friends' kids or whatever, and they're just like, you're the first.

Carl Lubbe: Oh, they're freaking out.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Like they won't remember dad's friends or, you know, whatever from, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, you're the drone guy.

Carl Lubbe: Drawing.

Stephen: my. Are you bringing your drone when you come over to hang out?

Carl Lubbe: Okay.

Stephen: for the Like because I'll go and wherever I'm staying, you know, after an event, and I'll go hang out with a friend for a couple, you know, their family and their guest room for a couple of days. Yeah. And it's just like kids are like, are you bringing, you're the one with the drone.

Stephen: um And that's how I feel when I fly it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. It's just a superpower. Yeah.

Stephen: It's just like, it's it's it's funny because um it's all about like contemplative, meditative, like slow sweeping, whatever. But when you're in it and you're just soaring over those treetops or over that glacier or over that edge of the mountain and the sun peaks behind it and, you know, and it is just such a,

Stephen: such a fun uh childlike wonder feeling and it also speaking of lord of the rings like the films like those films just like what you know like when i especially when i first saw it um very few films do this for me but it's just like uh that's beautiful and amazing and then now 20 years later i'm able to like

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: do shots that look, do shots that look sometimes better, you know, like I'm, I especially going to New Zealand and I go, oh by the way, in these beautiful places that tourists go, or, you know, you go adventure or hiking or whatever,

Carl Lubbe: Recreate

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: There's Lord of the Rings film locations everywhere. And if it's not a location, it looks like a location because New Zealand is just like one of the most... i mean, it is Middle Earth, you know? So when I'm like flying the drone, especially in the same location, not that I'm trying to recreate every shot, but like I want to...

Stephen: And it's like, do, want to go to Rivendell. I want to go to Lothlorien. I want to go to the Shire, you know, and just get those beautiful shots, especially when the sun is low, illuminating the landscape in such an incredible way.

Stephen: mean, it's just, there's a magic to it that you get to tap into,

Carl Lubbe: That's a perfect word. Perfect word. Because I think the beauty of this, right, and this is why I love this question, is that for most of us, what we're trying to do is either we're trying to redeem something that may have felt broken, or we're trying to create something that we hoped would exist in the world.

Carl Lubbe: And I can literally just imagine the eight-year-old version of you sitting next to you now going,

Stephen: Oh, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: Hold on. The thing that we were obsessed with this flight and then the thing that formed us later on, like a movie like Lord of the Rings, where we see unimaginable beauty, we now get to make this in the world for even more people to see.

Carl Lubbe: And like you said, the technology keeps on improving. So you're like, Well, they could shoot it in this, but now would you like to see it in this? and you're like, I'm I'm now can put a VR headset and an Oculus on or an Apple Vision.

Stephen: oh

Carl Lubbe: And now I'm there in the thing. And how unbelievable is this to go like not only have we created the world, but now inviting other eight year olds and all of us to step into that world.

Stephen: Thank you.

Carl Lubbe: And very brief aside here. So my probably favorite show when I was around that age, around eight, was a show called Airwolf. And I had a very uniquely you um memory because one of the first times I saw one of your aerial shots, um I had this thought like, man, I really wish they would remake it.

Carl Lubbe: So for anybody who doesn't know the the television show, i think it was like an 80s, 90s in South Africa.

Stephen: Thank you.

Carl Lubbe: Like I got it by the time I think we moved here. And it was this air, this helicopter pilot who like flew. And it was always like them against the Russians sort of thing. But they had these like sleek black helicopters and he would kind of rise out of a mountain and then has to go fight the other helicopter and very, again, eight year old. Whoever pitched this show, it was two eight year olds in the room and somebody approved the budget on it. But I had this thought of like, I feel like I'm the character from Airwolf when I'm watching Stephen's videos because I can see the landscape because you're getting so close and it feels like you're in one of those choppers. And again, it like the Thursday Zoom meeting went away and the, you know, the the the the invoice that you have to send got muted for a second. And the thing that you have to do in stepping into traffic in an hour and a half kind of got quieted. Because in that moment, you're just fully in it. And I think that's the beauty, again, of the eight-year-old version of us. We're just so present. We're so whimsical. We're so curious.

Carl Lubbe: We're so expectant that these things could actually be a reality. And then when somebody like you, an artist, gets to put somebody in that point and goes, it's real. And you're like, and I think that's just the beauty of that, right?

Stephen: It's real.

Carl Lubbe: But it's really real.

Stephen: It's real. It's really real. You're just like, this is a real place.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, yeah.

Stephen: Like you you have a picture in your mind and you can go to national parks and state parks and those are all beautiful. But like, there's a lot more out there, you know? And when you hover, when, especially when you're able to get that kind of perspective and look down on the landscape and you're like, like, honestly, we haven't, we've,

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Drones specifically, and I might be wrong on this, but really drones um have allowed a certain perspective, especially when it comes to photography or certain types of video footage that was never made possible by even other aerial landscape, like with helicopters and stuff. i mean, you can get a bit, you know, but to be able to hover over and point straight down and stay still and just watch the land do its thing.

Carl Lubbe: It's true.

Stephen: um I mean the way that forests turn into fractals the way that braided glacial rivers turn into like this abstract art you would never ever see from the ground and you're like is that real? Is that AI? You know or whatever like ah no it's real and and and you and it's such a such a

Stephen: it's such a process of discovery and enjoyment and wonder when you, when you, especially if it's a place that you're unfamiliar with, it surprises you.

Stephen: And it's not like the thing that you've seen on Instagram a hundred times. And you're like, I want to go to that place and recreate the same shot that everyone else did. Like, fine, whatever, you know, play someone else's, play someone else's song.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: That's how you learn how to play the piano, right?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: Like, or a guitar, whatever instrument, you know, like, you know, study the greats, write their, you know, play their sheet music. But, you know, so there's nothing wrong with that.

Stephen: But like, go off the beaten path, get outside of the normal places um and and ah and see what it looks like from above and see what surprises you.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. yeah

Stephen: um

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: I do have a follow-up answer, like a part B answer, but I'll keep it...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, I agree with Yeah.

Stephen: Very, very, very, very brief. um So drone drones are my, you know, one tool that I use a lot, that but the traditionally and still today, ah the other tool that I use a lot, I mean, other than like phones and computers or projectors.

Stephen: That's what you alluded to earlier. if People are like, who's this guy? Artist of light? What? that's the original That's where we met was when I was creating like these immersive projection visual experiences with light. um And you know sometimes it's a screen or an LED wall or some interesting pattern, you know, that I'm projecting on.

Stephen: Sometimes it is like what I've been doing on tour, you know, recently is, you know, turning, turning these blank, blank and barren Baptist churches into the sphere, know, You know, a very poor man's version of the sphere ah where it's just it's around you on all walls.

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: It's over the ceilings. You know, it's on the screens. It's just kind of this, again, fully immersive ah visual experience. So eight-year-old Stephen would probably think that's pretty cool because while the rest of my family is doing a good job of singing the hymns and writing taking notes, you know, ah taking notes during the sermon and church, I grew up Christian in church, as many of us did,

Stephen: um

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Come on. Yeah.

Stephen: you know i One, i was drawing roller coasters on the bullet on the church bulletin. i mean I'm just like, Stephen, pay attention to the sermon. I'm like, I am, but I cannot say ADHD here. And that was before we knew what ADHD was. i'm i'm just like I'm just drawing. also I'm just a kid sitting in boring church. you know like I'm just going to draw. I'm sorry. My imagination is just like whatever.

Stephen: but here's But then piece of technology came out that got a lot of ah few of us in trouble. and And there's going to be someone watching this. I know. I can feel it through the screen. There's someone who's going to feel this.

Stephen: I see that hand. I see that hand. Who... every, sorry, I'm going to have to joke now. Every, every, so this is going to trigger and make church people laugh, but like every head, what was it?

Stephen: What was the phrase? Every head bowed, every every head bowed every eye closed.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, everybody had bowed, every eye closed. Yeah.

Stephen: The invitation, you know, the, the, the guilt trip with the, the hymn that won't stop at the very end. Man, triggers. ah Every head bowed, every head bowed, every eye closed, every,

Stephen: i want to so I want to see, and I'm watching you, I'm watching you podcast people, you audience, whoever you are, the three of you and Carl's mom, who played with a laser pointer in church and who got and and and instantly got in trouble with it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, come on now.

Stephen: Like... like little little red dot or whatever. Green was the coolest. Love a green laser pointer. But red was, you know, the standard standard issue back in the day.

Stephen: Anyway, the fact that like I used to get in trouble for drawing in church and shining lights on the wall, now get paid to do it in church.

Carl Lubbe: got paid to do so.

Stephen: It's like my thing. It's like visual worship, visual theology, creativity, you know and and and shining light you know on the walls, on the ceilings, on the screens, back at the people. like and um and people love it.

Stephen: And I'm just like, eight year old I think eight-year-old Steven would be like, got him.

Carl Lubbe: you know

Stephen: Yes. Yes.

Carl Lubbe: yeah That's the perfect phrase.

Stephen: And in the end, I won.

Carl Lubbe: Be like, got him. I got him. Got him. um Well, you know all of that, having gotten to experience that and see a lot of that the the stunning places that you've done that, both indoors and outdoors.

Carl Lubbe: you know i've I've had the pleasure of being in places like Sagrada Familia where you're like, oh, this was built around this issue of light and color. And the fact that you've done that in places both internal and then external when it's out literally in the woods and you're projecting this up and it's creating this different environment.

Stephen: Okay.

Carl Lubbe: For a lot of people, that'd be like, oh, you're getting paid to do that. That's success. For other people, they're hear your story and it's like, oh, you're getting on tour buses and oh, you've met and you know rubbed shoulders with people whose names would be recognizable as like celebrities in whatever circle that that person's in.

Carl Lubbe: But I'm always curious as we come to this season um in our careers when you can look back a little bit. You haven't been in it three years. You've been in it longer than that. So there's a little bit of history, right? And there's still history, you know, or future history looking forward because you're still, um you know, ah early and or middle in the career, whatever you want to call it.

Carl Lubbe: As you look at the successes, you know, everything has a price. Everything has a cost. And so I'd be fascinated as you look at the successes that you've had. What if and you did an audit of what that cost you, what would you say it has cost you?

Carl Lubbe: And looking back on it, would you pay the same price or a different price? Would you would you adjust the bill in some way?

Stephen: I don't know.

Stephen: Well, I mean, drones are expensive. So there is a financial...

Carl Lubbe: Especially when you crash them. Especially when you crash

Stephen: there is a pause There is, especially when you crash them, but you know i get ah I get insurance, so I'm good.

Carl Lubbe: them. Good.

Stephen: That was a great question. i knew a new ah this type of question was was coming. I've been thinking on that. Like, And maybe I'm just too much of a seven on the Enneagram to like be focused on what the sacrifice was or the cost was.

Stephen: So I kind of struggle with it a little bit. um But I i do, I want to say a different phrase, like or ah ah explain it this way.

Stephen: as exciting as it as it's all been and I get to travel and, you know, rub shoulders with people that would like kill to have dinner with whoever, you know, and I'm just like, oh yeah, that was, you know, when you did, when you've done this for a while, it's just like, it's very normal. But anyway, to to be around certain people that, you know, and in industries and conversations and,

Stephen: um

Carl Lubbe: And hopefully Stephen doesn't mind me saying this, like my wife would probably spend an untold amount of money to sit and pro and I would too. Let me not lie. One of my favorite thinkers of the last 20, 30 years has been, you know, Beth Moore.

Carl Lubbe: And I know that you've spent a lot of time around Beth. And so it's be like, yeah, I'd spend, you know, a grand just to sit and listen to the wisdom of this woman while she's a cup of coffee in a relaxed state of mind.

Stephen: yeah

Stephen: Right.

Carl Lubbe: And you're like, Oh, you mean my Tuesday? Yeah, man. Like, you know, what a fascinating human. And then like you're seeing kind of like in the days of me as a musician, it's like, Oh, the people that I was like respectful of and enjoyed other people were so enamored of and put them on a thing that you're like, Oh, they're,

Stephen: Right. Right.

Carl Lubbe: they're They're pretty normal. Their coffee order is weird. They've got terrible taste in pizza. They've got a great sense of humor. They're actually much more low key than you'd met. All of these things that, again, humanizes somebody that somebody might else otherwise elevate.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah, totally. um

Stephen: Pause, and this is where you're going to edit for a second. Are you hearing, like, I'm not seeing my waveform, my sound on my, when I talk, when I hear you talk, I see you're peaking, and then mine is just flat.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: Are are you seeing...

Carl Lubbe: you're You're great. Yeah, I've got the waveform here at the bottom.

Stephen: good. Okay. I just was like, it's looking dead to me. And as a former podcast host, I'm sitting there like, oh no, we're going to do this whole conversation. And then like, your audio didn't come through.

Carl Lubbe: man No, no, no, you're doing great.

Stephen: all right.

Stephen: Yeah. um Yeah. That's a great That's ah that's an observation great observ observation observation and point you make um with that. I would say a couple of things, um and I'm just going to riff here for a little bit.

Stephen: First off, um I've gotten this incredible, like a lot of people in our you know industry and people that we know, travel is a big part of the job. yeah Live events, conferences, all kinds of you know stuff, being on tour buses, being

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: But the cost of that is that you miss out on a lot of things back home. You miss out on a lot of things with family. um Most of my family is all in Arkansas.

Stephen: um I could live there if I wanted to. I'm choosing to live here. i mean, there's there's a cost that comes to the job and traveling a lot. There is a cost to building a cabin in the woods in the Pacific Northwest where...

Stephen: I have now great got some great community and and life around here that I've built on my own, but i do miss out on, you know, a lot of family things. i I miss my friends, you know, that are back home.

Stephen: um And um yeah, so the other thing i would say is When you work in you know, the phrase never meet your heroes.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: Have you ever like, yeah, you've ever heard that. Like you it's almost like no never meet your heroes because, you know, they'll disappoint. It's one thing to get an autograph or like, oh my gosh, I got to have a, you know, but yeah,

Stephen: you know i won't I won't say that applies to Beth Moore. And luckily, a lot of people I work with um that I've gotten to know that are well-known or whatever, and you get to see the real side you know the real side of them, and you get to see who they are offstage and in phone conversations or texts or meetings or you know whatever it is.

Stephen: um i have been ive been very, very lucky to... um to work with some amazing people who like Beth is who what you see is what you get.

Stephen: I mean that she is who she off stage is who she is ont stage.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Like there is no difference. Um, of course she has her personal life where she like, She has to zone out and chill out too. you know And I've been around her in that moment too where I'm just hanging out with other people and she's just there and we're – after an event, you know we're not flying out for the next day. you know so we're like, it's me and like her daughter Melissa who's like one of my best friends now, another friend. And um and we're kind of like, well, we got an afternoon to kill.

Stephen: And let's go look at some big trees. Let's go, let's go hiking, you know, let's go see some sequoias, you know, while we're in California or and grab some Mexican food afterwards.

Stephen: But like Beth has just gone like, whoa, with this whole event. And after an event, we give it all, like all of us in our own rights are giving it all. And we, and that, and that And then afterwards comes the adrenaline crash.

Stephen: And sometimes you're just like, i just want to like bed rot or doom scroll or just or tune out or just like look out the window and like, dude, I love a good rot.

Carl Lubbe: head rod I love that. That's a new one to me. good

Stephen: You know you know what it is. And I'm probably worse at it than everyone else.

Carl Lubbe: I know exactly what it is. That's why it's a good place.

Stephen: i don't I don't have kids.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: So, you know, I know my i know my my friends with kids are just like, what's that like? You know, like I don't have time. But sometimes just laying in bed and just scrolling. I don't i know that's not great for the whatever.

Stephen: You know, it's junk food. It's junk food for the mind.

Carl Lubbe: Great.

Stephen: Sometimes I just need to sit and eat some Doritos and drink a Dr. Pepper, you know, like it's not going to be good for you, but, you know, so I love it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: I love a good rot, you know, once in a while. And anyway, but sometimes you just, you see people that give it all or on stage, they're constantly performing, even at dinners with the team, know,

Stephen: you know, you're still holding the whole thing together and they're kind of the center of attention, even though everyone's chill, but like you're, you're, you're still one of the reasons why everyone is here, you know? And so, and it's your, your boss, you know, too, it's, or your pastor or whatever, you know, the, the dynamic is,

Stephen: But to just to be in a space where you can allow everyone to just let their guard down and just be like in a safe place and just be like, we're all humans and everyone poops. you know And everyone just needs to zone out. And I love being a friend or someone where I can allow other people to just...

Stephen: So safely zone out. You don't have to perform. You don't have to, you know, one's recording this. You can say things that you're dealing with and I'm not going to go on Twitter or the whoever and be like, like, get out of my face.

Stephen: Why would I do that?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: why and I hate it when people do that. um So anyway, i but going back to like, what does it cost? i do I do look back. I'm explaining a lot of the good, you know, that you see behind the scenes, but there's a lot of bad and there's a lot of ugly as well. And so the cost is, you know, it's the Wizard of Oz and you're looking at the man behind the the the curtain and you're seeing, or you're seeing how the sausage is made sometimes.

Stephen: And, um,

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And there's a lot of – just – I got to say over and over again, there's so much good out there and people, and I could go on and on about the amazing people that I – who they are on stage is who they are off stage, and you get a little bit more of their in their personal life.

Stephen: But then you, especially working in the industry, you know and every industry has, and we're all humans, we're all, humans are gonna human no matter what, you know no matter what industry, faith, no faith, whatever.

Stephen: But man, there's you do see things that you cannot unsee and you hear things that you cannot unhear. And there's really some really disappointing things out there you know that that that can contribute to my cynicism.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And cause you to be very frustrated angry or kind of... Everyone's praising this person online and you're just like... Or this band or this whoever. And you're just like...

Stephen: Yeah, screw them. in That's a little harsh. but you know Or you're just kind of like, now i know I know a different side of of that story. And it it causes a lot of disillusionment and disenchantment.

Stephen: um I think part of that is our culture's problem with celebrity and putting putting people up on a pedestal and expecting so much of them. um This is especially prevalent in churches with personality-driven celebrity, you know, Christians and pastors and influencers and, you know.

Stephen: and i and And that has caused me to struggle with it as well. I mean, like, like ah don't get me wrong. i'm I'm so happy to be on this podcast and I would absolutely say yes to this type of opportunity and other with other people and I have before.

Stephen: But there is there is this thing happening in the attention economy, both in the church and outside of the church, where it's just so like me focused and there's so much navel gazing and there's so much personal branding happening and there's there's good things. I mean, we're both, I've got a marketing degree. You're into marketing, right? Like that that is a good thing. Yeah.

Stephen: But i've just seen I've just seen it done and have been a part of and recognized in myself some things that I don't like you know when it comes to that. And so you you can't unsee those things. And so what is that sacrifice? What does that cost? I mean, it's kind of like you want to you want to step on the other side of the industrial veil, so to speak, and and see things from behind behind the scenes from backstage,

Stephen: um you know, be prepared to be disappointed with some people and then be prepared to be, you know, disappointed in yourself because then because then all of a sudden you realize you're just doing this all the time.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And then you're realizing maybe maybe maybe there's something going on with me too. you know Maybe I don't like how I'm thinking all the time. i don't like the words that came out of my mouth. I don't like, and so it's,

Stephen: That is another reason why I wanted to kind of get out of Nashville a little bit because there was just – it's there so much, the good, the bad, and the ugly, where I was like, I need to, like, quiet the mind.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Stephen: i need to slow down. and need to reconnect. I need to find out who I am as ah as a person. i need to – in a sense, just rediscover my faith and let my faith and my art and my work kind of get, they're they're very attached and inform each other, but sometimes they can get so tangled together that it's just like, I need it to separate a little bit in a sense.

Stephen: And i need to clear the voices in my head and on my screen all the time, you know, with social media and, know, Yeah, and so part it, think, just growth.

Stephen: the sacrifices is that... you know um but the so the sacrifices is that

Stephen: Yeah, you're just, you're there is going to be some disappointment and some dis disillusionment.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: And that that is a, cynicism is a very powerful drug, as someone once said. so That's not my quote.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Someone else said that. Hell of a drug. Hell of a drug.

Carl Lubbe: Halipot. Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Very addictive.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: um And yeah, so really know what to say after that, but

Stephen: I had to come face-to-face with that a bit more and realize i if I so keep doing the same thing in the same context, I can see high probability of me becoming someone that I don't think I, over time, like i I think that's some something that like, I don't know eight-year-old Steven would be disappointed in because I don't think eight-year-old Steven was thinking about the things that I think about these days, you know, or whatever.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: but i i But there is a sense of like taking inventory of yourself and taking a step back and looking in the mirror and just being like, ah it's a lot of good and it's a lot of fun, but like, oh there's this area of who I'm becoming,

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: um I don't really love that. and and i And I want to be a little bit more proactive in ah addressing those things, um not just through practices, but just the environment that you're putting yourself in, the type of home you're creating for yourself, the type of people that you're surrounding with, the the type of people that you're working with, you know, like...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: and There's a lot of opportunities to work with people that I'm like, I don't want to work with them. I'm not working with that record label or that manager or that band ever again. Like, I don't care how successful they are ah or how people, you know, I just, it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm good.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: The cost is just too high. Yeah, the cost is too high.

Stephen: You know, y'all have fun.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen: Peace be with you.

Carl Lubbe: And also, I'd like to remain good and keep on growing in the right direction. And I know that that won't continue. Because I think the thing that I'm also hearing in... the thing you've learned and the thing that, you know, it costs you and that you'd pay again as well, is this idea of one of the most dangerous questions I think you can ask yourself or anybody else, which is, what's it like being on the other side of me?

Carl Lubbe: And so I don't know that the eight year old would be asking this, but the current version of ourselves is asking this if we're healthy is going,

Stephen: Hmm. Hmm.

Carl Lubbe: would if I was introduced to me, Carl today at 45 on this Friday at the end of July and twenty twenty six would i be in would I be interested in a friendship with me?

Carl Lubbe: And that's asking, you know, what is it like on the other side of me? You know, and obviously it was like, well, I want to know what my wife thinks and my kids think, but more pivotal than all of that is like, what do I think? am i To your point, am I growing in a direction that goes not only today, But six months, you know five months, five you know years, five decades from now, is that somebody who would have continued to go, oh, it it is lovely to be on the other side of me. It is interesting. It is intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, relationally stimulating.

Carl Lubbe: And for me first, and to your point, it's like if I'm getting bored, which also means I'm getting bored of being me in this container. Well, the only person I'm left with at the end of the night, even when the lights turn off and I'm in a different season with a wife and kids, but I still go to bed with myself and my own thoughts by the time she's fallen asleep and I'm about to fall asleep, I'm still yet again in my own head experiencing myself. And so, you know,

Carl Lubbe: I think it does beg a very dangerous question, which is, what's it like on the other side of me? And I think somebody like you has gone, oh, one of the keys to that is some silence, and it's a little bit of solitude, and it's a little bit of stillness, all of which your physical environment has helped provide, obviously, in spades. And so I'm curious, as we look at those two questions, the the last one that I'd love to ask if we've, you know, I think you've got time answer.

Carl Lubbe: Is that all right? Can I ask you one more question? Great.

Stephen: Oh man, go for it. TGIF.

Carl Lubbe: um

Stephen: Got all the time.

Carl Lubbe: That's right.

Stephen: We're good.

Carl Lubbe: That's right.

Stephen: It's a Friday.

Carl Lubbe: um

Stephen: so

Carl Lubbe: As you're thinking through you know, obviously the name of my company is Curiosity. you and I have asked each other dozens of questions of our friendship and we've asked couple today. so this might feel like a really big kind of meta question. But as you look back at your life, whether it was, hey, how do you take your coffee? Or I wonder what, you know, I'm going to do with my life or I wonder if I should live in the Pacific and Northwest. There are little and big questions that have outsized effects on our life.

Carl Lubbe: If I were to ask you, what do you think is a pivotal question that somebody asked in a season of your life that really affected you in a way that you know was pivotal that you could hand to somebody else?

Stephen: Great.

Carl Lubbe: What do you think is a truly great question all the way from how do you take your coffee to what are you doing in the next five years of your life? That when I ask that question, it doesn't have to be the best or the greatest question, but it's the one that kind of comes screaming to the front of your mind as, oh, I i thought this was a really important question to me and my life.

Stephen: right

Stephen: That's a great question. um Thanks for asking it. um Yeah, I'll give you three answers if that's okay.

Carl Lubbe: Oh, absolutely.

Stephen: ah there's one there's one there's There's one that jumps to mind straight away that is, i don't remember if it was ever actually asked as a question, but the the way it was said to me felt like it was a question.

Carl Lubbe: Listen, three for the price of one.

Stephen: in that moment. It was kind of a ah what it was a a statement or an invitation or a question that determined, you know, really was pivotal for the direction that my pace and my style of art and everything.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Then there is a, a follow-up, a follow-up question that comes to mind. and then there's, and then there's a fun one, you know, that's, that you alluded to earlier, but I'll, I'll save the last one as our little cherry on the top dessert, uh, answer. So,

Stephen: um both First off, I would say when I think about those questions, they were always they they were always asked um

Stephen: mentors of mine um older older men, you know, i Beth and ive nothing against women, like I have women in my life too.

Stephen: I don't want to be like these old men, you know, but there are theres um there are some old like father-like figures or older brother, you know, ah fun uncle, you know, type figures that um have also worked

Carl Lubbe: It is old.

Stephen: in the space that I've worked in Maybe they're not doing projection mapping and flying drones, but, ah but they have worked in sacred space and immersive spaces and leading worship and churches and faith and the tension of it all. And they're kind of black sheep figures themselves that are kind of constantly asking inconvenient questions of, of the system and of the matrix.

Stephen: And so i will say that, um, the The foundation of this answer will be that having mentors and older people in your life is so, that has been so important.

Stephen: um fundamentally and foundationally important to who I am and who I have become, ah who I want to be ah as well. And the first question that my friend and mentor Mark Pearson in New Zealand, ah who is the author of The Art of Curating Worship,

Stephen: reshaping the role of worship leader. And he, for yeah decades, has been curating ah sacred space in very immersive ways, very tactile, interactive, analog like he creates stations that people go to and just, he helps people engage with creativity and their faith in a way that, um, it's just, it's, it's simple, but it's outside of the box. And, um,

Stephen: hes He's a huge fan of humility and curiosity. So much that, you know, we talked about Japanese tea houses earlier. He built a Japanese tea house in his backyard and he created a door of humility, you know, like a little hobbit hole that you have to crunch down. And every time I go to New Zealand in a state ah with him and his family, you know, we always get to go into tea house and have tea a couple of times.

Stephen: um And so when my first trip to New Zealand, I've been like, it's like another home to me. um I've been 13 times now. um crazy Yeah, I've gotten to go there for festivals and conferences and events.

Carl Lubbe: On my list, like number number two on my list. I got to go.

Stephen: and ah And then i drone a drone the rest of it. you know Anyway, I've seen a lot of New Zealand.

Carl Lubbe: Okay.

Stephen: It's amazing. But and the first time I went, I believe this was in 2010, where I went to this ah church and we did kind of a workshop.

Stephen: He and I did this co-workshop led ah with their team, um just talking about creativity, worship, projection, media, tech, whatever.

Stephen: um And then we had this, we created this big like ah night of worship gathering like a concert, you know, for the church. ah And I, we got projectors out everywhere and I'm just,

Stephen: yeah like part of my art form is like one description is VJing video, like a video jockey where you're just like taking all kinds of different ah imagery and clips and whatever, and you're mixing them together and you're blending them together all in real time. Right. um And I love doing stuff like that and it never happens the same way twice.

Stephen: And anyway, but i you know,

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: especially coming from Nashville where everything is go go go, go, go, like fast pace. You're on the go all the time. ah Church music is just starting to amp up and just become like massive concerts. And, you know, it's wild to see how church music has become such a a massive, you know, music industry situation.

Stephen: um And i remember when people were like, there's no way, you know, it's like, well, and now look, you know, it's the biggest part of the music industry now.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: And um so I will kind of create these like real time on the go, like ah freestyled, music video, conceptual visual experiences with the music. And I'm like, I see myself as almost like one of the musicians. Like if the drummer's going in, like, ah you know, i'm I'm building up the energy of the of the, I'm trying to find a clip that like matches the energy of the music.

Stephen: Anyway, um i was just going and going and going and going with my with my artistry. And then I, afterwards we're talking and we're driving home reflecting on the experience. And he's like, yeah, yeah, that was very interesting, very wonderful. You did a great job. you know like and i And he said, whether I had asked him for, is there anything you didn't like? Or maybe he just volunteered it or whatever but whatever. However he said it, here is the answer to the question or the question that was asked was, what would it look like to slow down?

Stephen: or What would it look like, or he basically, like I'm and just going to rephrase what he said as the question. What would it look like to put a photograph on the screen and just let that be the only thing that happens for an entire song?

Stephen: And at and and if that might not be revolutionary to some people, you know, or whatever, but to me in that moment, it was a like,

Stephen: you're right. Oh, wow. And I think that I was just so like, ADHD and like, go, go, go. And like, let's stir up the dopamine hits. And like, this thing needs to move and this thing needs to move. And then, okay, this thing has been moving for a chorus in stanza and I need it to change over to this, you know, and it needs to change colors and it needs to change dynamic and I need to blend in a different thing. And because the second verse mentioned this. And so like, I want to pull that image into it. And, and yeah, that's, that's great on a lot of songs, but,

Stephen: there are these moments where it's like, God, over the course of an hour, hour and a half, you're just constantly being visually stimulated with motion.

Stephen: And it's not leading you to a place of rest. And it's not leading you to a place of of of calm and peace.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And I think that's one problem with, you know, so a lot of modern, you know, church music and sacred spaces that we're trying to entertain you to death. Like we're trying to be Taylor Swift. It's like, good luck, you know, or whatever it is, whatever the artist is.

Stephen: And, I'm all for a good experience and a good concert, but there there has to be dynamic ranges.

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: and And in that, i think about narrative arcs and I think about dynamic ranges and like there's there's mountains and there's valleys, just like the landscape.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: You know, there's, you gotta have these moments and it's okay to just sit in silence and stillness or just look at a simple photograph and to allow it to just absorb and sit.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: But my dope my dopamine addiction was just constantly needing me to move on to the next thing. So what would it look like to slow down? What would it look like to sit with an image in stillness?

Stephen: And even though the music is still moving, the music is moving, people are moving, people are singing, things are still moving around you. But like visually, let's just lock in and focus on something.

Stephen: And that I can trace back to, um

Stephen: yeah he always has a sneaky way and mentors do this. And mentors have a a little sneaky way of of just, especially gently with grace,

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephen: and sometimes not so gently, you know, bam, you know, just like a little, what about that?

Carl Lubbe: is

Stephen: You know, like, just hit a little spot, ask a little question, present an idea that takes root and... And turns that seed grew into a forest of my life. you know Because it wasn't just how am i how can I do concerts or church or projection you know in a more refined, mature way where it's like it's not just eye candy, you know spiritual eye candy, whatever it is the whole time. But it's actually like it's it's shifting from entertainment

Stephen: leaning to to like art, you knowre like going to an art gallery and just sitting with an image and letting it speak to you.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: I think that's the difference, right, between entertainment and enthralling. To entertain, you can be a spectator and just how high can I get the dopamine to your point? To enthrall is to captivate, which requires, again, a sense of surrender to your own dopamine, the speed, all of those sorts of things.

Stephen: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: And that movement, like you said, from motion picture, to a still image, like from movement to stillness, from loud and cacophony to silence, I think is such a beautiful invitation from the the mentor and for you to accept that, like, what would it like, what would it look like to slow down?

Stephen: What

Stephen: would it look like? And that, and it was like, that applied to the art form and the concert and all that. But then it started to realize over time, oh this is a picture of my life. Like my artwork is being, is an expression of how I'm living.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: What my life is like. What would it look like? if I slowed down, you know, what would it look like if I still have to travel and I still have to do my stuff, but what would it look like to sit still and practice some silence and ah be a little bit more rooted, you know? And um yeah, it's, it's, it's that kind of question that really pivoted me to a different pace of life.

Stephen: not only in my artistry, but in my way of living, in my way of seeing the world, that there is there is ah so much beauty. It's like walking into a cathedral versus like the sphere in Las Vegas. I love the sphere. I've been to the sphere.

Stephen: Give me that screen.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: Give me that screen. Let me do some damage.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And a but a budget, and a budget, because that's a big screen.

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: That big screen needs a budget. But the sphere, and of course there's opportunities to to do this with screens, but when you walk into a cathedral, it is sensory overload, but not in a way that's trying to like overstimulate you and fire off all the dopamines. It's actually slowing you down and causing you to lift your gaze upward and to feel like you are sitting still and being reconnected to something that is so much bigger than yourself.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And that's what I want to do both in my artistry and the live events I create, the videos that I create or whatever it is that I'm doing.

Stephen: I want it to be true of my life as well. I want it to be like stepping into a cathedral where you're just like,

Stephen: and you your voice gets quieter, your words get slower or fewer. Your pace slows down. Sometimes you just want to go pick a random pew and just sit and be.

Carl Lubbe: It's

Stephen: yeah, um yeah so ah that's, that's, the that's one question that has, has really messed with me in a good way.

Carl Lubbe: a great one.

Stephen: um The second, the second one, and I'll be a bit quicker on this for time, but the second one was another mentor of mine, Roy Cochran down in Carlsbad, California. and you know, we would, we'd be driving around and talking about all so all sorts of stuff and dreaming. And, you know, he, at one point they had a jacuzzi hot tub or whatever that you know, we would go and enjoy and ah under a tree and he'd pour this nice whiskey and we're just sitting, looking up at the stars, drinking whiskey in a hot tub.

Stephen: ah And just like, you know, We need to be, dream it's like he's an artist himself. So we're just sitting there like, man, you know, what's really messing with me is like, we need to be dreaming bigger dreams.

Carl Lubbe: Hmm.

Stephen: We need to be dreaming dreaming bigger dreams. And he's just looking at the backyard. What could we do this? What could we turn my backyard into a place to host artists every month and, you know, gather people and have wonderful food and amazing wine and art and stories and music and, and, um,

Stephen: for But the question he asked me was, you are constantly supporting everyone else in their artistry and their music. You're showing up and supporting the the music the musician, the speaker, the author, the event. you know You have clients that you work for you know and collaborators.

Stephen: But what would it look like for the model to flipped? Yeah. the model to be flipped and for you to create your own experience and your own art that is Stephen Proctor, that is you, that other people show up and and support you, or at least you take the charge and lead.

Stephen: And I was just like, man, that's a that's a crazy wild dream that'll never happen. never happen or be too hard to you know go after you know I'm a little lazy at times I'm just or I'm just I think I'm just tired because I'm just like I don't want to do anything more right now I've done enough I've given it I've given it I've given it to everyone else

Carl Lubbe: even though that genius to everybody else the idea giving yourself too hard

Carl Lubbe: yeah yeah hopefully

Stephen: and And usually with an invoice on the back end of it, hopefully. um But yeah, no, it was the question of like, what would it look like for you to have your own, ah you know, original experience and for people to show up because you have an idea of something to do.

Carl Lubbe: Yes.

Stephen: And that's something that haunted me for a really long time. And I would just sit with, and I'm just like, I mean, I've got some ideas. I've got some abstractions of ideas and the type of music and the type of imagery and the type of space that,

Stephen: And then slowly and slowly, just like as I show up to to places, you know, like i'm I'm helping create a big worship opener for this festival and supporting some bands and teaching a seminar or something, you know, like I love all that stuff.

Stephen: But that festival in New Zealand, which is happens to be six miles down the road from the Hobbiton movie set out on this farm And it's like, it's called Festival One.

Stephen: And it's like, this is the modern day Shire, like with modern day Hobbits from New Zealand.

Carl Lubbe: right.

Stephen: And they've all pitching their tents and, you know, camping out and having parties. And it it feels almost like a modern day, like Bilbo Baggins party with a big party tree.

Stephen: And I was like, so there's a forest here on this farm, a pine forest, and there's a forest stage. And there's bands playing and doing their thing and sometimes evening things. And i was like, you know what I really want to do is project on those trees and just play vibey instrumental music and everyone chill out and just lay in hammocks and slow down, you know, and sit with this immersive experience that is unexpected. Yeah.

Stephen: Have you ever seen light projected on trees and patterns swirling up the bark and out the branches and, you know, and letting it just splash and filter and create depth? And again, like it's like a cathedral, like a luminous cathedral out in nature.

Stephen: ah To me, forests are cathedrals and cathedrals are just another forest. you know, and it's all sacred.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: It's all in how we see it um and how we engage with it. and And I love the work of re-enchanting the world around us, not because the world needs re-enchanting, but I think we are the ones in need of re-enchantment.

Stephen: We need to... There's a William Blake quote that I'll probably butcher. And that's like, if um when the doors if the doors of perception are cleansed, we see everything as it truly is.

Stephen: We see reality as it truly is, infinite.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: The doors of perception need to be cleansed. And We've got scales on our eyelids, peoples. I know i do. you know and And between social media and all the disillusionment and politics and religion and scandals, and <unk>s there's all the exterior, external things happening in the in the world around us. And then there's our own lives you know that we're having to deal with as well. Yeah.

Stephen: I think we've just, we we've become so disillusioned and disenchanted. And so how do we, my work is, whether it's in a forest or a cathedral, a drone video you're watching, Bethmore conference, I don't care what it is.

Stephen: I want to help re-enchant us.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, come on.

Stephen: I want to illuminate us.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: That's the name of my company, your curiosity. I'm illuminating illuminate, illuminate us.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And I want to illuminate the world around us to shine a light in the darkness, sometimes very literally.

Carl Lubbe: I love that.

Carl Lubbe: Hmm.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And ah darkness is my friend because I can shine lights into it. You know, I'm not scared of it. And, um but no, it's, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: So this idea of dreaming bigger, like what could we dream?

Stephen: Yeah. it's it's dream It's dreaming bigger and like, what is what is it that you're bringing to the table that is that is uniquely you?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: yeah yeah

Stephen: And i've gotten I've gotten a chance to do that at a festival with a forest and projections and I've done it three years in a row. That has, posting that online Turned into a, you know, a music video. i was working, I've been working with a band called Hammock.

Stephen: um Mark Byrd and Andrew Thompson there in Nashville. Ambient post-rock. um I've gotten to get into album covers with still images. Talk about sitting with a still image.

Stephen: you know Not just video that's entertaining you with music, and i love all that, but like here's ah an image that is going to just sit and represent this journey that you're going to go on.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: ah So I've been getting into a lot of album artwork lately. um But yeah, he saw the images of the projection on the on the forest and was like, that'd be a really interesting music video.

Stephen: Can we do a music video out of that? so we did a music video and I got projectors out in my own little forest and illuminated the the dark world around me and ah made the coolest video I've ever made in my entire life from that.

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Carl Lubbe: Okay.

Stephen: And then... That idea from the forest and in New Zealand also translated to this. I got the incredible opportunity to work with Comment Magazine for their inaugural festival called The Understory that took place at the Washington National Cathedral of all places. Like, what?

Stephen: And they were like, my friend Tiffany that works there, she was like, so what would you think about doing projection mapping? in the Washington National Cathedral.

Stephen: And I'm like, I'm sorry, yeah.

Carl Lubbe: Hmm. Hmm.

Stephen: yeah

Carl Lubbe: yeah

Stephen: I'm going to need a lot of laser pointers for that church. And so ah we got a lot of projectors and, ah and for a whole evening ah just turned the cathedral into a forest.

Stephen: The understory is the imagery of what's happening, not just on the camp up above the forest and which tree is the highest, but the real life and growth is happening on the forest floor. And,

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: and then i And then I asked the question, like, what would it, okay, Roy's question, you know, what would it look like to create a unique experience that was haunting me? I was like, hey, Tiffany, so I've been doing this thing in New Zealand with projection on trees.

Stephen: Yeah, cathedral is just another forest. ah What if I... did the same thing I did in the forest, but in the cathedral and just made it into like a, a sound bath with light, like a light and sound bath of just music and imagery. And people can just, especially when you're at a, an event, a festival or a conference, it's a lot of speakers. It's a lot of bands. It's a lot of poetry. It's a lot of, it's a wonderful stuff, but it's a lot of content.

Stephen: That you're listening to and engaging with, right? But what does it look like to sit still and to just bathe and meditate and beauty and light and music and just for a whole hour just...

Stephen: look up and wonder and re-enchant that imagination.

Carl Lubbe: Hmm.

Stephen: And she's like, I love it. Let's do it. And I'm like, oh, cool. And I was like, well, what would it look like if it wasn't just me hitting a playlist on Apple Music of really great music?

Carl Lubbe: Hmm.

Stephen: But there was like a live musician and a composer that I'm working with. So I brought my friend Hannon Townsend, an incredible film composer that you might know his work from, if anyone's into Terrence Malick films, like The Tree of Life and To the Wonder and...

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: ah He's become one of Malik's go-to composers. He's also from New Zealand. ah All wonderful, wonderful country. But ah we've been working on some some interesting projects, and um including album albums.

Stephen: vinyl design and, you know, for his latest record, but um beautiful, beautiful instrumental music with some, some big epic things that he's been scoring ah that, that take people on this um amazing journey. And we called it Fos Helleron, which was the name of the first name of the the the hymn of the first, the name of the first hymn from the early church, Phos Peleron, which is, O glad oh gladsome light, now we are come to the sun's hour of rest, the lights of evening round this shine.

Carl Lubbe: One.

Stephen: We hymn the Father, Son, and Spirit divine. you know And just what would it look like to create a song of light and for people to just sit for a whole hour and just experience beauty in an unexpected, immersive way that, again, like pointing back to the question that Mark said, what would it look like to slow down? So I then through my art am trying to ask that question without asking the question, hey, what would it look like for us in the middle of this conference to slow down and rest?

Stephen: and And yeah, and and so that was ah That was a very ah surreal, surreal experience.

Carl Lubbe: Stunning. Yeah.

Stephen: there's Yeah, anyway.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, byproduct of another good question.

Stephen: So alet

Carl Lubbe: I think you you had teased us with one last one. yeah yeah

Stephen: one last one. I just, I just, see that?

Carl Lubbe: i

Stephen: See that? The last little drop.

Carl Lubbe: Last drop gone for the last question.

Stephen: Of my morning coffee. And that is the last thing I wanted like ah to to to end to to leave us with on this question. How do you take your coffee?

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: You know, um I went to New Zealand the first time I went to New Zealand in 2010, that same trip. I experienced before anyone else in the world was talking about it, especially America, the flat white thing.

Carl Lubbe: Oh.

Stephen: Coffee perfected.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: not this fe Not this foamy cappuccino crap and not this huge milk soup jug of a latte. But the perfect, you know, it's like a cortado but a little bit bigger.

Stephen: You know, that perfect blend of cream, velvety, microfoam that just blends well with the crema.

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Mm-hmm.

Carl Lubbe: Mm.

Stephen: ah Flat lights and now but now this is just pour over coffee.

Carl Lubbe: Man, my...

Stephen: Now i I love a good flat light when I go to a coffee shop but at home I just do like pure unadulterated pour over.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: It's the real deal. Yeah.

Stephen: You know ah and I can trail off on all kinds of rabbit holes on ah on on coffee and the things that it has taught me about creativity and life but that's going to take another podcast.

Carl Lubbe: ah

Stephen: It's me playing with fire.

Carl Lubbe: Well, I deeply appreciate all of these questions. It is interesting. My brother in Spain has now decided to take his take on the flat white. And instead of using whatever dairy product, they use, um I guess, heavy cream as the dollop on the top.

Carl Lubbe: And ah the name for that is now a fat white, which he thinks is hilarious and delicious.

Stephen: huh

Carl Lubbe: And so he was...

Stephen: That actually is amazing. like

Carl Lubbe: He goes into his his favorite little shop, yep, just outside in Mijas, and they know him now, and he orders his fat white, and it's delicious.

Stephen: that way

Carl Lubbe: It is delicious.

Stephen: That's amazing.

Carl Lubbe: Well, Stephen, man, it's such a gift to me and to the world and this idea of re-enchantment.

Stephen: Wow, thanks.

Carl Lubbe: And so I deeply appreciate you taking so much time with us because it it really is a gift. And, you know, in this idea, it does make me think of you. You talked about, um I think it was ah your William Blakely quote.

Carl Lubbe: the The other one that comes to mind around that re-enchantment is Lewis. And this will be a terrible paraphrase where C.S. Lewis says, we are like kids who are playing, you know, in the ditches and making mud pies when what is offered to us is a holiday by the sea.

Stephen: Yeah.

Carl Lubbe: And the beauty of this, right, is this is this thing of moments like this, hopefully in the podcast, hopefully all of these questions that have gotten you here, like, you know, what would what would slowing down look like?

Stephen: yeah

Carl Lubbe: What would dreaming bigger look like? What's your favorite cup of coffee? Or what's your favorite drink? All of these questions have built you and and led you to this place where today, hopefully we've made an invitation to the people on the podcast to go.

Stephen: Mm-hmm.

Carl Lubbe: What does it look like? What does it feel like just to do that? You know, Jimmy Carr puts it, you a couple times a day. What does it look like to make sure your head is where your feet are? And I think just a lovely invitation and a lovely question.

Carl Lubbe: And so thank you for adding another couple of great questions to the conversation at Ledge. It was a real treat.

Stephen: Yeah, thanks, man. Just great questions lead to great better questions, you know.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: And then Mark Pearson, my mentor, he says in his book, The Art of Curating Worship, he was like, the the main problem that church has today and many of us have today is that we need, it's not that we need to be doing this better and this better and this better.

Stephen: It's just that we need to be asking better questions. Yeah. that is That is the heart of it.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah.

Stephen: um can i

Carl Lubbe: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Can I end us with a little, just to bring it back to Middle Earth? um

Carl Lubbe: Please do.

Stephen: Can put a little bow on it from a ah quote i quote a quote from Lord of the Rings?

Carl Lubbe: close us out. Yeah, close us out.

Stephen: Okay, hold on.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: I got to get the book off the shelf real fast.

Carl Lubbe: And by the way, before Steve closes us out here as he comes to find his book and read us out, I would implore you to go find his work online.

Stephen: I have...

Carl Lubbe: And then also his book is stunning. And so for those people who are looking for him, yeah, yeah, he's got a book.

Stephen: Oh, I wrote a book. Hold on.

Carl Lubbe: And it's basically as an artist, not famous, but his artist has been invited.

Stephen: Shameless plug time. Shameless plug time. Here we go. as soon as As soon as I moved into this house, I like land i land ah ah landed some kind of book deal ah that my friend Paul Pastor was like, want to write a book? And I was like, no. he was like, yeah, you should write a book with photos and stuff. And I was like,

Stephen: Okay, well, let's see what that looks like. So here it is ah Shameless plug, Wild Wonder, What Nature Teaches Us About Slowing Down and Living Well.

Stephen: And it's only $20. In fact, I think it's $13 on Amazon right now. But yeah, it's all my... photo photos, braided rivers in New Zealand, Iceland with some stories and reflections, a lot of Japanese tea ceremony stuff as well.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah. All right.

Stephen: So

Carl Lubbe: All right, Stephen, I'm going to buy your copy and then it can sit ah on top of Garrison Keillor's In Search of Lake Wobe.

Stephen: um

Stephen: right on top.

Carl Lubbe: Yeah, just right on top.

Stephen: right on top of it.

Carl Lubbe: ah Stephen.

Stephen: Get some color get some get some color in that in that world.

Carl Lubbe: That's right.

Stephen: I'm just kidding.

Carl Lubbe: That's right.

Stephen: Okay. So thanks for that, by the way.

Carl Lubbe: Yes, sir.

Stephen: um Yeah, that was, yeah, getting to share these stories and ask questions and present ah questions and ah every so much of what we've talked about, I got to put a lot of that into this book, in the stories and in the photos and

Carl Lubbe: Thank you.

Stephen: you know and And I just got to say, like and you're doing a book as well, and so you're the the feeling in this digital age where everyone's just like scrolling past everything on Instagram and YouTube and whatever, like you're just hoping for three seconds of attention and a like or a share or whatever. Like and subscribe, smash that button, you know all that.

Stephen: for something to exist in the physical world that's offline and then you just get to let people sit with that photo. It's like, it goes back to that Mark question, Mark Pearson question. What it look like to just sit with a single photo?

Carl Lubbe: Ah.

Stephen: What does that do to you? What does the landscape do to you? And just to kind of drink your coffee, however you like to take it and just exhale and allow a little bit more, hopefully some re-enchantment.

Stephen: into your, into your home. And speaking of homes and kind of putting the bow on top of this, I'm going to get copy of part of the, Oh no. Part of the back cover literally just fell off. It's Tolkien.

Stephen: Oh no. It's Tolkien's kind of re take that's Tolkien's pipe just fell off because this is a first America, uh,

Carl Lubbe: um

Carl Lubbe: no

Stephen: First edition paperback edition in America from the 70s or 60s. I need to look. This was my Uncle Steve's. This is who I was named. I was named after my Uncle Steve who passed away in a farming accident before I was born. And so it's who I'm named after. And when my grandmother, grandma died and we were going through all her stuff and cleaning out the house, we found the Lord of the Rings.

Stephen: books and my mom goes oh that's my brother steve's old lord of the rings books like he loved that book i was like he was into lord of the rings too what can i have those so my uncle steve's uh lord of the rings tattered uh paper books is here on the shelf in my home that i named rivendell because I'm a nerd. But I want to go to part of the Rivendell passage in The Fellowship of the Ring. And I think this is ah really sums up

Stephen: Rivendell to me really sums up what I'm after here. It's I'm able to name it this way of life, the type of home I wanted to live in, the type of art and experience that I want to bring to the world, the type of hospitality i want to give to people, at least on my good days.

Stephen: And it was summed up summed up like with this.

Stephen: In the chapter, Many Meetings, Frodo was now safe in the last homely house east of the sea. That house was, as Bilbo had long ago reported, a perfect house, whether you like food or sleep or storytelling or singing or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.

Carl Lubbe: Thank you.

Stephen: Merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear, and sadness.

Stephen: So my question for everyone else, you were asking good questions. My question would be like, what would it look like to live in Rivendell, you know, and to bring Rivendell to your own life, to your own home and to the world around you?

Carl Lubbe: And with that, we close. Stephen Proctor, a real, real treat. Thank you so much for being here.

Stephen: Thanks, man. Thanks, Carl. Really appreciate it This has been a lot of fun.

Carl Lubbe: Talk to you soon. Cheers.

Stephen: See you.

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Carl Lubbe

Stephen

Recommended

Episode 19 What's the Worst That Could Happen? A conversation with Callie Murray33:34
Episode 19 What's the Worst That Could Happen? A conversation with Callie MurrayOne Great Question

38 plays · Jun 15, 2026

Episode 18 Why Don't You Do It Tomorrow? A conversation with Jeremy Cowart36:13
Episode 18 Why Don't You Do It Tomorrow? A conversation with Jeremy CowartOne Great Question

38 plays · Jun 8, 2026

Episode 17: What If Your Greatest Deficit Became Your Greatest Asset? A conversation with Jason Wahler37:41
Episode 17: What If Your Greatest Deficit Became Your Greatest Asset? A conversation with Jason WahlerOne Great Question

31 plays · May 25, 2026

Episode 16:What If You've Been Designing Someone Else's Good Life? A conversation with Charles Lee42:25
Episode 16:What If You've Been Designing Someone Else's Good Life? A conversation with Charles LeeOne Great Question

49 plays · May 18, 2026

Episode 15: What If the Mountain Was Never About the Summit? A conversation with Matt Chenard48:25
Episode 15: What If the Mountain Was Never About the Summit? A conversation with Matt ChenardOne Great Question

30 plays · May 11, 2026

Episode 14: What Does This Make Possible? A conversation with Chris Ducker42:27
Episode 14: What Does This Make Possible? A conversation with Chris DuckerOne Great Question

36 plays · May 4, 2026