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Stoic Practical Wisdom and Prudence (Episode 140)
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The ancient Stoic, Arius Didymus, provided a framework for practical wisdom and prudence. It’s still applicable today.
(02:29) Reading
(05:01) Judgment
(17:19) View
(26:24) Shrewdness
(31:11) Discretion
(37:38) Soundness of aim
(41:31) Resourcefulness
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoic Prudence
00:00:00
Speaker
where people have achieved mastery and success, you look at that skill of prudence and people are able to actualize that in different domains. And it just makes me think about how in Stoicism, you know, good people are effective people. Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley. And today, we are going to be breaking down the stoic of virtue of prudence. So in the past, we've talked about courage and moderation. We've done separate breakdowns. For those, we'll add the links to those episodes in the show notes.
Understanding Prudence Through Sub-Skills
00:00:41
Speaker
And following in that tradition, we're going to be doing one on prudence as well.
00:00:48
Speaker
We're going to be using a breakdown of the sub-components or sub-skills that comes from the Stoic Arius Didymus. I think it's ah it's a useful way to think about these large virtues moderation, courage, prudence, and justice in a more specific way and thinking about, okay, what are the components of these character traits? And then given that you have these components in mind, how can one apply one of these virtues more in one's life?
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, I've really enjoyed these episodes that we've done in the past on the virtues. I was, I wouldn't say I was a skeptical of, of the stoic virtues, but I always kind of thought they were leftovers from Plato or older Greek philosophers. And I didn't really understand, you know, what's the point of. of you telling me to be courageous. Obviously, I should be courageous. It's about understanding Stoick's ideas of what's good and bad and what's worth being afraid of and what's not worth being afraid of. And you know knowing that I should be courageous doesn't really help me solve that problem.
00:02:01
Speaker
But I think what we've seen and in these past episodes and what we'll do today is that the Stoics have this really ingenious way of breaking something like prudence down into its parts.
Exploring Practical Wisdom and Judgment
00:02:11
Speaker
And that gives you, I think, a pretty clear step-by-step guide of, well, okay, if you think about prudence holistically, it's actually made up of these seven or eight subcomponents and which of those are you failing at when you fail to be prudent. And I found that really helpful. So looking forward to doing that again. Excellent. Excellent. Yep. Yeah, me too. So we're going to be ah going through prudence today. Sometimes it's called practical wisdom. You'll hear that as well, ah but we'll just use the term prudence for now.
00:02:43
Speaker
And just start with this translation from Arthur Palmeroy of Arius Didymus' Epitome of Stoic Ethics. So he says that
00:03:01
Speaker
prudence is made up of these elements. They say then that soundness of judgment is knowledge of what sorts of things to do and how to do them so we will act expediently. Circumspection is a knowledge which marks off and summarizes what is still in process and what is completed. Shrudeness is a knowledge which is able to discover the appropriate act on the spot. Sensibleness is a knowledge of what is worse and what is better. Soundness of aim is knowledge which is able to hit the target in each case. Ingenuity is a knowledge which is able to discover a way out of difficulties. So those aspects then are soundness of judgment, circumspection, shrewdness, sensibleness, ah soundness of aim,
00:03:59
Speaker
And then finally ingenuity. So that's, that's coming from the Pomeroy translation, which is ah fine work, but the way all capture those elements here is with judgment. view, shrewdness, discretion, aim, and resourcefulness. So we'll go back to the translation, compare other words we can use to describe these sub skills. But so that's how I'll be thinking about these aspects here. Um, I like the idea of shrewdness.
00:04:33
Speaker
which is the ah ability to discover the correct choice on the spot, which is almost like, you know, there's the ability to think of the right thing to do. And then the, the, I guess the skill of doing it quickly, something like resourcefulness, which is that capacity to, I guess, figure out the right thing to do in the most difficult situations. We'll dig in further detail, but I think it's a, it's an interesting list. Um, and things that stand out to me as being kind of good practical skills. Yeah, absolutely. So let's start with judgment. So judgment or soundness of judgment, eubolia in ancient Greek is from Pomeroy. We have this idea that it's a knowledge of what sort of things to do and how to do them well, ah so you'll act expediently. And this promotes the idea of expedience, which is
00:05:25
Speaker
You know, not a word we use ah so often these days, but knowing how to do things in a practical and convenient way. Another description from the philosopher Chris J. Dunn is, this aspect judgment is about how to act to advantage. So the way I see it is, having sufficient knowledge in one's domain to know, you know, make decisions that are practical. If you think about people and that you may know who exhibit practical knowledge, they know, oh, here's how you do something in a convenient way, not to say one's cutting corners, but it's a smart or sharp way. And that's what you're pursuing when you're aiming to be prudent.
The Role of Expertise and Self-Awareness
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, and is this so that what you're calling out there is this idea of not necessarily aiming at the right target, but once you've picked something, getting there the right way, is that the idea? So um how efficiently you reach your goal? Or is is that what we're aiming at? So not not not what the goal is, but but once we've picked something, how we get there? Yeah, I think it's not a focus on the goal. It's a good thing to call out. It's a focus on the means, and in particular, there's this idea of
00:06:57
Speaker
making a practical decision. And what's a practical decision? It's knowing the right way to get from A to B, not cutting corners, but also not spending an inordinate amount of time to get there and having the ability to make that judgment about this is perhaps the right amount of time you should spend on this project and then move on. And that involves not just things like, I don't know, product management or navigation, what have you you. I think part of this idea that having the soundness of judgment does mean having some amount of domain expertise.
00:07:39
Speaker
But the important aspect of it is having some domain expertise that you can use to make good judgments in the right area. Yeah, i like um I just did some quick looking up of the the Greek as well. And um it's funny how much of these metaphors we keep in our language, like judgment obviously has the word of judging it, which has this kind of legal connotation. And Eubulia is good counsel, Eubulia is for you know um counsel. So you think of it as kind of giving good advice to yourself.
00:08:17
Speaker
or acting as yeah acting as that kind of expert to yourself. So the same way I might seek i might seek that you know if i um i might go out and seek a lawyer or a doctor, or as you said, somebody with content content or domain expertise, if I'm in need of something, and this is kind of this is being in a position, I think, to do that for yourself, or to if you recognize you don't have it, to maybe seek it elsewhere. um Yeah, that's really that's obviously really, really important. I don't know if there's any way to get that quickly though. That would be something that you just have to um you'd have to work at to get.
00:08:55
Speaker
And then recognize, I guess that other part would be recognized when you don't have it. So, you know, recognize, okay, I don't actually, you know, maybe I should get a lawyer if I'm in legal trouble. Maybe I should talk to an accountant if I'm doing my taxes. And so the the soundness of judgment, you can either become an expert of the thing or recognize, be sounding your judgment in terms of your knowledge of your own ignorance, I guess. Um, cause this doesn't seem to me like an easy thing to get unless you are an expert somewhere. Yeah, I think that's right. I think part of having good judgment is knowing when you can rely on your own faculties, your own experience, then also when you need to go to some third party. I think that, that brings up this other issue with, I think with this one in particular, sometimes it's hard to say, you know, like what's the specific upshot of prudence? Um, and then the stoics break down. Well, you should have,
00:09:52
Speaker
one one of these breakdowns we'll get into some more useful ones later I think but one of the breakdowns is you should have good judgment and of course everyone thinks you should have
Prudence, Risk Management, and Intellectual Skills
00:10:01
Speaker
good judgment but once so what's like the concrete upshot of this and you mentioned one which is both recognizing that you need to spend time developing judgment in different domains and having a sense of you know how good you are when can you rely on your own judgment when do you need to delegate to others so that that is a practical upshot and and but But perhaps one other one here is when you're thinking about prudence, often when that term comes into play, when I see it, it's when other people are mentioning themselves or others as acting.
00:10:39
Speaker
imprudently which usually means taking on some amount of social or physical risk. um That's the way I see it the most. And I think what this pointing at judgment can help bring out is that before you get to making the correct ah decisions about ah you know what sorts of risks ah one should take in a given area. You want to cultivate judgment to begin with, you know that that ability to have sound judgment move through you know the levels of a given skill.
00:11:16
Speaker
instead of perhaps thinking about prudence from those moments where one has already made a mistake by acting imprudently, or perhaps sometimes you'll also talk about like imprudent investment decision. That's sort of the outcome of a process, as I suppose, what I'm trying to say, and that focusing on judgment gets you a little bit nearer to the function that you know produces these outcomes, which is you know that part of one's character that determines whether one's going to act imprudently or prudently down the line.
00:11:50
Speaker
Yeah, we we might be getting a little sidetracked while I'm sidetracking it a bit further, I think. I think that i think that's really interesting, Caleb, but it makes me think of how ultimately these virtues are intellectual skills, especially when we talk about virtue. I always think, even myself, I think of them as kind of moral failings, and they are moral because the moral and intellectual is intertwined for the Stoics. but if we can detach it from this idea of morality, we really are just talking about um you know intellectual capacities. And so when you look at somebody who's like, what did something imprudent, when I was listening to your story, Caleb, it can be tempting for me to think, oh, well, they should just... you know you know When you think about something like courage, it almost becomes like just buck up. you know When you think about kindness, just do the kind thing. It almost feels like there's this kind of
00:12:38
Speaker
We think about moral problems. We almost think about it like temptation and overcome the temptation. Do what's in your own interest versus do what's in the interest of others, but the answer is very clear and you just need to kind of be selfless. But when we're talking about prudence, it's not really just a matter of being selfless. It's not a matter of just bucking up and doing the right thing, even though it's the hard thing to do. There is almost seems to me the most intellectual of these virtues and that you know you can't just oh you made an improvement investing decision just invest better it's like no you have to you have to go and actually retrace the steps of that process you have to teach yourself what what sound judgment looks like what good investing looks like what it means to be to make good decisions in that space or any domain you choose
00:13:24
Speaker
um And so yeah, so this is I think a very kind of um intellectual skill of a virtue. And ultimately, it's still virtuous, right? Because good people are effective people, right? Good people are the kinds of people that can go out and and achieve their moral plans. If they want to help somebody, they can help somebody effectively and efficiently. And so there there there is this kind of intellectual skill to virtue that the Stoics noticed, and I think it's really getting called out here. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's essential, of course, as you know, as you say, if you want to help someone, whether that's some other other person or yourself, you need to know how to do it and have a skill to, you know, see that project through. It's essential in that sense. But I think it's also can be useful, I think, to approach whether it's like maybe moral failings or something that people talk about.
00:14:16
Speaker
ah mental health type issues through thinking about building a skill directly. I think this is something we talk about a lot and less about, you know, how can I just become happier? How can I just become a better person? where thinking about getting at the level of skills, where that's and especially i think an intellectual one in this case, can break down that you know this sort of really nebulous goal, becoming happier, becoming a more moral into something a lot more tractable and something that I think you're you know you're forced to think about. How can I apply this to my own life? How can I exhibit judgment in my own life, prudence in my own life and so on?
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah, which I guess though, as you might mentioned, the practical up shots is a develop expertise scenario, the way people like to develop expertise. Everybody has their own method, but you know, find people you trust, learn about a subject matter, become experienced, and then be really carve out areas of your own ignorance because you're not acting in a practical way if you're acting ignorantly. And those are two quick steps we can do to build that kind of intellectual skill. Right, right. and So something else we should say here before moving on to these other sub skills is we've also talked about attention and the importance of attention for the Stoics. And one reason for that is that, you know, if you're paying attention, you're able to improve your judgment over time. Whereas if you're turned off,
00:15:48
Speaker
in a way or just go through particular social situations, what have you, ah without that kind of awareness of what's you know what's going on, what what can I learn in this moment, then you're not improving your judgment in those circumstances. That's one additional reason why Stokes care about attention because it's essential for building any skill and especially the part of the skill that has to do with judgments, you know recognizing what's going on and learning. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, MCT talks about this, the the meta, I don't know, I try to use this and say this in plain language, but the the kind of meta awareness of the fact that you're thinking, right? That's what attention gets us to, that's what mindfulness gets us to. And when you have that awareness, you can intervene in the thinking.
00:16:39
Speaker
You can disrupt the patterns. You can build new habits. You can build new patterns. And so when we're trying to improve our the soundness of our judgment, we're trying to both build practical domain experience and also break our patterns of imprudent, unsound judgments. And we do that through mindfulness, awareness, attention of the way that we think, the way that we act. um And then Epictetus just talks about that as our, that's the unique human thing to do. This ability to take a step back, be self-aware of the way that we think and then intervene in that process is is distinctly our own and and we we have to use it.
00:17:18
Speaker
Yep. Yeah, that's well put.
Situational Awareness and View in Prudence
00:17:20
Speaker
So we have judgment. Want to get onto these other sub-skills. View, shrewdness, discretion, aim, and resourcefulness. The next one I'll talk about here is what I'm calling view. Pomeroy translates this as circumspection. The ancient Greek is eulogistia. Eulogistia. So you almost think of it as good logistics. Jadaan describes this as giving purview of a situation and what can be done. So you could think of this perhaps also as situational awareness. I had a friend who would insist on
00:18:04
Speaker
One of the most important heuristics for him was that this being able to answer this question. you know Do you know what's happening and why are you are doing it at all times? It's a sort of thought of having that awareness, what's going on in this situation, and then how do I fit in with the rest of what is occurring around me. Well, it makes me think of, if I'm understanding it correctly, it makes me think of in Brazilian jitsu. So I teach Brazilian jitsu and I often think about a blue belt, which is begins a white belt and then there's the blue belt level. um And I often think of the blue belt, the second belt. When I talk to people about it, I say, for me, a blue belt is somebody who always knows where they are and always knows what they're trying to do.
00:18:47
Speaker
So jujitsu it can be very confusing in a lot of different positions, a lot of different techniques. And for me, the bluebell is not the person who can win or who has mastered anything. It's the person who in any position has a general understanding of, okay, I'm in, I'm. You know, I'm on the bottom of Mount. I'm trying to escape so that I can do, so I can get on top and do my technique, which is this. And so that would be that kind of, well, that kind of view or that circumspection, that idea of where you are, where you want to go, and maybe some cues on how to get there.
00:19:22
Speaker
It also made me think of this book that I read recently called Good Strategy, Bad Strategy. It's about strategy and business. One of the main ideas was that good strategy takes ah takes a point of view um about what matters in a situation and then makes a bet on that. so Bad strategy says something like, if you're a hospital, a bad strategy is what we want to help people. Well, that's not really a strategy. It's amorphous. A good strategy would be something like, you know well, what what matters the most for helping people is getting them in the door as quickly as possible. So we're going to you know have ah ah more people in our in our staffing area to get people through as quickly as possible or something like this. And it's just whether or not that's right or wrong, you know that's not the point. The point is that good strategy kind of has a view about what's important in a situation.
00:20:14
Speaker
and And then makes a bet on that. And that's what, those are the two things I was thinking about when I was thinking about view. Do you think I was getting that right? Do you think that's what, what view is? Yeah, I think especially that part where you are taking account of what's going on, the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu example is perfect for this. I think having that sense of I'm in this position, you know, these are my options from here. And also I think in, in other skills you have. people who get better and better at those skills are able to describe what happened, which is another part of situational awareness. I think not just in the present moment, but you know, if you do some sparring with someone, you can describe these are the positions. This is what happened. You know, maybe this is what I did. Well, this is what I did. Whereas when you're just starting out, whether it's in martial arts or even chess, it's a games like chess. You're like, well, it's a lot more, it's a lot more blurry. And then when you get better, you can,
00:21:10
Speaker
describe. This is a path that I took. This is what happened. If we're not careful, it'll become a jujitsu episode because we're going to do a follow-up. Well, just that the Stoics have this idea about expert impressions. So this idea that when an expert in something sees something, they actually see something different than you do, even though your eyes are literally taking in the same thing because the Stoics talk about you You don't make judgments about what your eyes take in, you make judgments about your impressions about a situation and your impressions are filtered through your personality, your history, your current level of knowledge. So the idea is that different people have different impressions based on the biases that they but they interpret the situation from.
00:21:55
Speaker
Even before they choose to believe it or not is that initial interpretation and so an expert impression is a special kind of impression that an expert has and I think about that in terms of jitsu all the time because if you got a white belt to watch a jitsu match and a black belt to watch jitsu match to be watching the same match but they have entirely different views and memories about what is happening and what was going on. And I don't think that's the exact same thing as view. View is not being that specific to expert impressions. But I think both this sub-part of prudence, what it has in common with that is just this idea of um you know really in any situation, kind of what it's not what you're giving your attention to, but what your the mental model, I guess, of what you're carving out as what's occurring and how you can navigate or move within what's occurring is ah
00:22:44
Speaker
It's a skill to be trained and it differs from person to person. Yeah, I think that's right. One thing I would call out is that Pomeroy in particular ah makes this seem almost like an administrative type ability where he says it's knowledge which marks off and summarizes what is still in process and what was completed. So that really brings out the sense ah of logistics, right? I think you shouldn't think about it just in terms of that, but it's it's good to root it in the ability to have this awareness of what's going on in the moment and what happened and what are we doing right now.
00:23:27
Speaker
And to ah two other examples of this and historically sure I wanted to call out is um Marcus Aurelius in his first book of the meditations. He has this list of people that he learned from. And I think there are two two examples of his adoptive father, Antoninus Pius or Antoninus Pius sometimes pronounced as well. showing this sense of view, the sense of circumspection. So he writes in Meditations 16, his searching questions at meetings, a kind of single-mindedness almost never content with first impressions or breaking off the discussion prematurely.
00:24:15
Speaker
And for me, this brings out the sense of sometimes you might be in a situation, so like our so maybe our martial arts type examples, where you can get that awareness just by looking, right? You know, you have some amount of experience ah that plays a role in that, but you if you just simply ah pay attention in the right way, you'll be able to get that what's needed for the right view. um But in other situations, you really need to dig for an answer. And mark Marcus Aurelius is mentioning here this ability to yeah inquisitively ask questions in a single-minded way to get that awareness. So I think that's a good good reminder. Yeah, your point being that it's um
00:25:05
Speaker
Or the way that I was under understanding that is that it's not just attention. It's not just saying to think about this. It's saying sometimes you got to work. Sometimes you got to get it. ah you yeah and yeah And you're not comfortable moving forward until you have the view, right? Until you have the perspective of where you are and where you can move from there. Yeah, that's right. um It's also kind of, I mean, the Marcus Aurelius' adopted father kind of example is also kind of bureaucratic in a way, I guess, that is kind of governmental again, where you think of these as project meetings, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I know ah bureaucratic is not the you know the coolest thing to be called, but the ability to really you know carve out ah up a project plan um and understanding the steps to get somewhere to to make you know realistic change is a good skill.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. The other one place I wanted to call out, you get the same sense of this where he says, and his advanced planning well in advance and his discreet attention to even minor things. And I like that passage as well because you get and not the sense that having prudence involves, you know, being able to see things through time, but also know, you know, what's the right moment to really dig into the smaller details.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, great.
Shrewdness: Quick and Moral Decision-Making
00:26:24
Speaker
All right. So we have judgment and view. The next skill, we've got shrewdness, discretion and aim, ah and resourcefulness to cover. So the next one we have is shrewdness. Knowledge to find what is appropriate on the spot is how Christian chian describes this one. And all of these require practice with perhaps this one, especially I think yeah being able to build up you know that that reflex to know what's appropriate in a given situation. you can You can prepare, you can practice, you can also prepare for a situation before it happens. um But often, I think the skills built up through experience and quality experience, you know experience where you're paying attention about you know what's going on, what works, and so on.
00:27:20
Speaker
Another aspect to this sub skill is that there is a moral dimension to it, you know, being able to find the appropriate action in the moment and appropriate action is one that fulfills your duties. If you want to think about this and enroll ethics, it's recognizing, you know, what's my role here? And how do I fulfill that? What, you know, who are are the other people involved? And how do I, how do I treat them with proper respect and do that on the spot without hesitation?
00:27:48
Speaker
i know I think you're right of about the moral aspect and that's where it gets in right is because at the end of the day, the right answer is going to be a moral one and getting the wrong answer is going to be a moral failing. um I'm just trying to think about these practically. I understand a view. View is like what's going on, what matters. Judgment is the right way to achieve the thing you're aiming towards. And then shrewdness is an ability to tell what the right thing to aim towards is. Uh, I think it's not exactly that broad because we are going to get to soundness of aim later on. I think this is specifically about two ideas. One is speed knowing, you know, knowing what's appropriate on the spot.
00:28:36
Speaker
building up a kind of reflex almost. And another idea is this idea of appropriateness. So at least the way Aria's Thetamis has arranged these, ah those are the two most important parts of being shrewd. so I think a conscience might be pushing it a bit far far because we think of the conscience as being kind of subconscious. But it's it's it's this almost kind of reflective, you know, somebody comes up to you and says, Hey, do you want to cheat? Or, um you know, do you want to buy this thing that I stole? And you're just kind of like,
00:29:10
Speaker
something about this kind of rubs me the wrong way or something about this doesn't seem right. um And that's kind of shrewdness, this ability to immediately identify, okay, you know, what the what the kind of moral standing of the situation is, what what's kind of the appropriate way. Or I think of, there's that story where, I mean, somebody asks Agrippinus for advice about something that's like, I don't know. I can't remember what it is. It's about maybe kissing up to a tyrant or something. Yeah, yeah yeah it's Nero. And Agropinus gives the advice and the guy's like, well, what like why aren't you going to do it? Or what do you think about it? And he's like, well, I'm not going to do it because it never even occurred to me to do such a thing. It never, even in the moment, I never even considered it. So I'm giving you some advice. I'm giving you some counsel, I guess.
00:29:55
Speaker
but you know yeah So that that person was smart enough to to ask for, I guess, the counsel of Agrippinus, but Agrippinus had the shrewdness to tell in the moment that, you know, getting into Nero's good graces wasn't worth doing. Yeah, that's a perfect example. I think that's a great example. Yeah, that's well done. That seems important then. Yeah. Yeah, um yeah absolutely. And again, it comes back to the skill example because you almost think, well, why are we judging people for how they respond in the moment? Shouldn't we judge people for you know what they come to at the end of a deliberation if virtue is intellectual? But no, there's this skill to deliberating well quickly the same way an athlete would. It's not about making the perfect shot in the empty ice ah you know when nobody's around. It's about making the right shot um when all the defencemen are around.
Discretion and Depth of Understanding
00:30:49
Speaker
This is a hockey metaphor now I slipped into with my Canadian-ness, but it's about doing in the moment when people are trying to check you and there's all the flashing lights and everything. That's that kind of skill and practice, and that's what I see shrewdness as, is that ability to get the right aim in the moment to be clear on what's the appropriate goal to shoot for. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, that's what I put. Nice. So the next one then is discretion. And Jidane describes this as concerning what is worse and better in a situation. And if we go to the Pomeroy translation, he has arias datum esse of discretion, what I'm calling discretion. It is ah the knowledge of
00:31:40
Speaker
what is worse and better. So essentially the same thing. There are some, both at this one and the next, there are some issues fra issues with, I think, the root text that we should flag, but this is and generally how it would be understood. And the way I interpret that, my sense of what this means is, okay, for these other sub-skills, we have this idea of, judgment, coming to a decision, especially this decision about what is convenient, what's practical, view, having a sense of what's occurring in a situation, what's the right way to look at things, do I have sufficient awareness, and how do I fit in? Then we just talked about shrewdness, and that's a focus on
00:32:34
Speaker
what's appropriate and that ability to come to that judgment quickly. um Where discretion, my sense is, all of those in some sense concern what's worse and better in a situation, but being able to build up
00:32:53
Speaker
discretion means you're becoming more sensible, you're becoming more knowledgeable, you have enough depth to know in a given domain what is worse, what is better and why, and know what's grounding some of your judgments. one way One way I think about this is people who are prudent often have the right words for things or they're able to explain things in a clear way, in a way that displays they have knowledge about what's worse and what's better in a situation. That's not always the case, but I think a correlation
00:33:35
Speaker
is that many people who are talented at a given area are able to describe what's going on in a greater level of detail, in a greater level of depth than amateurs and have a sense about yeah why particular tactics are worse or better in a given situation. and I think that's what that's what discretion is about, ah building a sense of like expertise, a depth a sense of depth to one's knowledge.
00:34:06
Speaker
Okay, so i mean I'm gonna I'm sticking with the sport metaphor, not just because I like sports, but also because it just works as a skill. Because this is prudence is just the skill. It's a it's a it's a virtue, but we're applying it to the moral domain, but you could you could be a prudent um you know hockey player or athlete. So if shrewdness is, if I'm getting this right, if shrewdness is a perception in the moment, you know you're you're in the middle of a play and you think, okay, you know this is the right way to go or this is the right path to make, then discretion is a kind of a depth
00:34:42
Speaker
uh like you think well these are this is what good plays look like this is what good hockey looks like this is what bad plays look like this is what bad hockey looks like or you know that's a bad strategy and i just know this because i've played a lot of hockey so i'm i'm almost making this contrast between shrewdness as this like moment to moment uh knowledge of of how to act and discretion as a kind of um maybe more generalized, you know, these are typically the right things to do, typically the wrong things to do. Yeah, I think that's that's right. So you have a sense of what the right things, what the wrong things to do are. And one way you can display that is, as I said, being able to talk about things, being able to conceptualize things in a clear and true way.
00:35:34
Speaker
Another way of course is just embodying your philosophy and displaying in your actions that you have a sense of what's better and what's worse in a situation. I don't think it's it's not necessary to be able to talk about things in clear detail in order to have discretion. you know We've all met people who are good at what they do, but they're not able to explain what they do. That does happen sometimes. um Being able to explain is just one possible expression, I think, of discretion. Maybe the underlying underlying skill for the Stoics is knowing what's better or worse in a situation in a way that's revealed in your character in some in some way. And this is where
00:36:21
Speaker
some of the more traditional ideas of prudence come into play. you know Why did we describe that person's actions as imprudent? Because they didn't act like they knew what the right thing to do was, or they didn't act like they knew it was worse or better in that situation. you know If they had known, then they wouldn't have done that and so on. Yes. so like ah It's always helpful to talk about these things in their opposites. yeah like so Somebody with poor discretion. it's almost like theyre they you know I think if I travel to a country for the first time, and I don't really understand the culture. you know I don't understand when I'm making a faux pas. I don't understand when I'm walking into a dangerous neighborhood. That's an example of me having poor discretion. And then maybe shrewdness is when I walk into the dangerous neighborhood and I get kind of, hmm, something's not right here. hey That's me being shrewd. But I didn't have good discretion because i was I was ignorant of the area and I was ignorant of the the kind of the the country and
00:37:14
Speaker
it's culture and things like that. That's the way that I'm thinking about it and that makes sense to me or you know the the person who shrewd maybe finds themselves hanging out with a bad crowd and is like, I don't think I want to do these things or something's kind of striking me the wrong way. The person who has good discretion is like, well, I wouldn't hang out with with these kinds of people anyway because that's not what matters to me or that's not what I think is a good life and they have a pretty clear picture of that.
Aim and Ethical Alignment in Stoicism
00:37:38
Speaker
All right, so this other one soundness of aim, we also have some ah textual issues with this one, but it's described as which is able to hit the target in each case by Pomeroy and
00:37:56
Speaker
I think there's there's some related ideas here. Of course, all of these are integrated, but Seneca has this moral letter 71 that brings this skill out really well, I think. The reason we make mistakes is because we all consider the parts of life, but never life as a whole. The archer must know what he is seeking to hit. Then he must aim and control the weapon by his skill. Our plans miscarry because they have no aim. When a man does not know what harbor he is making for, no wind is the right wind.
00:38:37
Speaker
So that that passage brings out this importance of aim, both having one, you know, the archer must know what he's seeking to hit, and then being able to follow through and hit it. As Seneca says, then he must aim and control the weapon by his skill. This in particular, unlike the other sub skills we mentioned brings out the importance of a goal and ensuring you have the right goal and then bringing these other skills of prudence to bear to follow through, you know, making excellent judgments, taking the right view, displaying shrewdness and discretion as you make progress on the goal.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think about, you know as much as you bring up the Agrippinus example, I love the Kant's argument where he says, you know the only thing good is a goodwill because you wouldn't want a ah courageous or you want write courageous bank robber or a prudent serial killer. like any Any virtue can be turned to a bad means, at least in Kant's view of it. Stoics don't think that. but That's because things like this are built into their ideas of prudence, right? You're not actually prudent unless you're aiming towards the right thing. And that's this part of it. So discretion, you can be about the wrong things. Maybe not in there. It's like calling things by their proper name. There's kind of a moral aspect built into it, but you know, you can be shrewd. You can think of all these things, doing these things for bad causes, but you're not really the stoic prudence unless you have a sound aim, unless, which means you have a right aim, not just a target, but the right target.
00:40:27
Speaker
the right goal that you're aiming towards with these actions. And that's where the rest of Stoic ethics comes in to inform you of what that goal should be. But it's an important point that none of these other skills matter unless you know unless you're going towards the right harbor. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I want to read some other sections from 71 because I i think Seneca explains this really powerfully. He writes, for whatever we do ought to be in harmony with this, where this means pursuing virtue, no man can set in order the details unless he has already set before himself the chief purpose of his life. The artist may have his colors all prepared, but he cannot produce a likeness unless he has already made up his mind what he wishes to paint.
00:41:17
Speaker
I think that artist example is also also a useful one.
Resourcefulness and Adaptation in Adversity
00:41:22
Speaker
you got some We got some mic drop moments from Seneca here. Quite excellent metaphors. Perfect. all right so We've got judgment, view, shrewdness, discretion, aim, last one, resourcefulness. Pomeroy interprets this as ingenuity and This one is all about you know being able to discover a way out of difficulties. I think part of
00:41:56
Speaker
The reason to include this as ah within the skill of prudence is that even if we do our best, we have excellent judgments, take the right view, or pursuing the right goal, act with shrewdness and discretion, things ah don't always go our way. Because we're limited, we're either not going to know about specific things because other people are not in our control. They might throw us curveballs and so on. So resourcefulness is a way to recognize that many things are out of our control. Even if we do our best, we're going to face
00:42:39
Speaker
bad luck, be put in difficult situations. Resourcefulness is that ability to fall you know have a guy kind of confidence that we can push forward nonetheless and also possess the skill to do the right things when it matters and when it's difficult to do so. So I think it's it's really useful to to have this here. as a sub-skill of prudence, I think, because that's um I think not always always connected to the traditional idea.
00:43:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I think about it. I mean, I think resourcefulness is a great idea. It's what, what do you do when you're, when things go wrong, but we can also connect it to resilient. i I think of it in terms of resiliency, but a more proactive resiliency. Like we think about resilience as, okay, if you're getting beat up, you know, can you continue to get beat up and continue along the same path? You can also think of it as, okay, you know, if if you get, if you get beat up, how do you respond to that? How do you change the plan? How do you make sure that doesn't happen again? Not just the ability to ability to endure pain and discomfort and numb yourself to it, but an ability to respond to it. And that's that's real resourcefulness is is an ability to um adapt, not just persevere. um And that's great. Yeah, that's got to be, that that's a beautiful final piece of the puzzle of being a prudent person.
00:44:09
Speaker
Right, right. um I'd like to connect to this to some more ideas of Seneca. So Seneca in On Peace of Mind, um this is one of the places where he discusses this idea of the Stoic Reserve Clause, essentially this idea that whenever we do something, we should keep in mind, you know, I will do this. I will accomplish whatever this is, fate willing, unless something prevents me. So he says, I will set sail unless anything happens to prevent me. I shall be praetor if nothing hinders me. That's a political office in Rome, a prestigious political office.
00:44:48
Speaker
My financial operations will succeed unless anything goes wrong. This is why we say that nothing befalls the wise man which he did not expect. We do not make him exempt from the chances of human life, but from its mistakes. Nor does everything happen to him as he wished it would, but as he thought it would. Now his first thought was that his purpose might meet with some resistance and the pain of disappointed wishes might affect a man's mind less severely if he has not been at all events confident of his success. So I think there are there are different aspects of this this skill. One is that you know one shouldn't cling to a
00:45:34
Speaker
delusional expectation of success. But I think it's important not to take the wrong lesson away from this where you don't do your best because some adversity arises, or you don't finish what you started because, you know, there's some additional signs that fate is not willing. you know the main I think the main idea is to be resourceful,
00:46:09
Speaker
so yeah i have a kind of relentlessness, even if you recognize there is so much of life that is outside of one's control. It's taking that full responsibility of what is up to yourself. and doing one one's best without, say, investing one's happiness in those things that that really are outside of one's control. yeah What's that line? there's There's a line, it's like hope for the best, but prepare for the worst or something like this. and Maybe we push it a bit further and it's prepare for the best and prepare for the worst. Something like this, you're you're you're still going to give it your all for the best, but you're not surprised and you're ready to adapt if bad things happen um because you're a stoic and you're not you know it's not toxic positivity would be the opposite of this. right is is you
00:47:00
Speaker
You only focus, you know we talked about a view or circumspecction circumspection, you you carve out your view to only focus on the good things that you want, only focus on the good things that could happen to you and because of that, you're less prepared for success because you're less able to adapt and more disappointed if things don't go the way you thought they would. so and that's Again, these things are all going to be connected, but that's that's really the the downside to toxic positivity as I see it. and so This is this is the the way to maximize success while accounting for that.
00:47:34
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I think that that's ahs that's part of it, certainly. So those are, those are our I think that's that's our breakdown of prudence.
Summary of Prudence Sub-Skills and Conclusion
00:47:43
Speaker
We have the sub-skills of prudence, judgment, view, shrewdness, discretion, aim, and resourcefulness. While going while going through this, my um So my initial takeaways were on view. you know Marcus Aurelius says words, kind words about his father Antoninus Pius, and I think the positive respect he shows him for you know searching for answers in
00:48:15
Speaker
meetings with advisors, generals, and so on, and showing a kind of competency when it came to you know mastering the details, planning out what would have have been exceptionally you know a complex work of you know administering an empire. ah So there's there's that aspect of view that, of course, we're not going to be in the same situation as Marcus Aurelius or his father, but we do face situations where you know perhaps our questions could be more probing or planning could be better. We could pay more attention to detail. um And then there's always that reminder to keep the aim in mind from Seneca. yo He who knows not to what port he sails, no wind is favorable. I think that's ah that's a very nice line.
00:49:06
Speaker
I think those are both great, especially the detail-oriented one, because I think we're not detail-oriented, at least myself, because it's not particularly fun. you know it's and It's not particularly sexy or cool. um It's not like courage or something like this, but it's something that you know most people could work on, it or at least I could work on and am working on, um asking those probing questions, getting deeper to the topic at hand. I think though the the Seneca topic on AIM, the the idea of setting sail to the right port, as you as you were saying, is is is really just a beautiful passage in general. What I was thinking about in summary it was just the idea that these are really kind of intellectual. There's some moral aspect to these, but these are things that you could say of any
00:49:55
Speaker
person in business or sport or academics or anything um where people have achieved mastery and success, you look at that skill of prudence and people are able to actualize that in different domains. And it just makes me think about how in stoicism, and good people are effective people. which is you not to say that your not to say that you you know you need to become a super successful business person to be a good stoic or anything like this, but who what your life looks like or what task or role you set for yourself, um being effective in that task or role is going to depend a lot upon your ability to actualize prudence.
00:50:39
Speaker
um And that matters for the way you're able to positively impact other people's lives and the way you're able to be excellent at what you set out to do. And so connecting that to you you know moral virtue is an interesting reminder for me. Yeah, that's really well put. And I think that you this idea that to be virtuous is to some degree be an effective person. And that's going to look like, you know, playing, going to some of these ideas from activity, just playing your roles well, or that's being, you know, that stereotypical effective CEO or something like being effective when it comes to managing the logistics of, you know, being a father, being a good mother.
00:51:24
Speaker
and ah you know being able to put up with the boring details, perhaps, that ah maintaining long-term friendships sometimes involve. um Whatever it looks like, I think that kind of effectiveness, having a good judgment, a sense of view, shrewdness, discretion, pursuing the right aims, and then, of course, being able to be resourceful when things don't go your way. all Each of these parts are essential. ah Great. Awesome. Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Kel.
00:52:09
Speaker
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