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Episode 22: Gwen Frey (Lab Rat)
208 Plays8 days ago
In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Gwen Frey the developer behind Lab Rat. Topics include the development of the game and its large scope, Gwen's long career in games, and the state of funding in the industry.
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Transcript
Introduction to Dracneck and Friends Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
you
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Dracneck and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren, the producer at Dracneck and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Dracneck at Dracneck and Friends.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello. Today, we're joined by Gwen Frey, who you may know from her work on Kine and Lab Rat, among many other games in the industry before that. How are you doing today?
00:00:46
Speaker
I'm doing good. Awesome.
Gwen Frey's Career Journey
00:00:49
Speaker
Do you want to talk a bit about yourself and your career and who you are and what you do? ah Sure. Yeah. I mean, I've been doing this for a really long time now.
00:00:58
Speaker
I forget how long, 15 years or more, I guess. like i ah I started out in AAA. Specifically, I started out going out to California and I was working on a bunch of um online and MMO style games out there.
00:01:13
Speaker
I actually worked for a couple of like big names at one point, John Romero and Dave Brevik, who was the president of Blizzard North. And that's kind of like where I cut my teeth was in these kind of very, very large productions out in California.
00:01:26
Speaker
After that, I think my big break, the the thing that was really fun and that I'm kind of known for was I moved to Boston and I worked on a game called Bioshock Infinite. That was a really fun production. That was my first like big AAA console title.
00:01:40
Speaker
And I learned a ton there and I had a great time. And I was like, um I'm just kind of like known for that, I guess, in the industry more than anything else because it's obviously I love puzzle games, but like not many people play our games compared to play like these big console titles. you know So I really loved that. But after that, ah there was some industry turmoil. Bioshock Infinite shipped. It did well, but they they didn't know what they wanted to do next, so they shut down that studio.
Founding The Molasses Flood
00:02:07
Speaker
um And they started working on a new game with like just a core team of, ah I think we called them the 11 Cylons. So a couple of us got together and we founded our indie studio. ah The first indie studio I founded, which was the Molasses Flood.
00:02:21
Speaker
That was a team of six. um We launched a game called The Flame and the Flood. This was like a survival roguelike game that was made pretty quickly. We kickstarted it after ah like about seven months of production. We launched it after about two, two and a half years.
00:02:38
Speaker
It was initially a flop. It didn't do very well, ah but it gained steam over time and it was a launch title on the Switch, which managed to keep that company going long enough for us to start up another project.
Transition to Indie Games
00:02:51
Speaker
And I wasn't really into the next project you were working on, so I kind of exited the company at that point and they they went on and they launched that and they did like, i'm I'm still really involved with the molasses flood. Well, that's a whole story, but like, I'm still friends with them. That was a huge experience was making that company with that team.
00:03:11
Speaker
And after that, I decided to go solo. I basically left the molasses flood because I would start this kind of indie puzzle game. I, at the time I'd fallen in love with like these block pushing puzzle games.
00:03:23
Speaker
And I'd played some of Alan's work and I thought, you know, I just, we were really struggling financially at the molasses flood. um We were always like a month from closing the company and it was so stressful and I just needed a break. And I was really enjoying just making these kind of block pushing puzzle
Creating Kine
00:03:43
Speaker
games. And so i had this prototype for Kine and I kind of exited the molasses flood, wound up down my role there and I yeah started up chump squad and I,
00:03:52
Speaker
made a game called Kine. This was a um is a launch title on something called Google Stadia, which doesn't exist anymore. Oh, rest in peace. Yeah, it was my first black pushing puzzle game, basically. um And i were for people who aren't aware of it, can you describe the game briefly?
00:04:11
Speaker
Sure, yeah. I mean, it was this was a game that was mostly about moving around in 3D space. it was I was really excited about ah the idea of being a cube that moved in weird ways in 3D space. was more about movement.
00:04:23
Speaker
It's hard to explain. But i wanted to I liked some of the ideas I saw in your discords and and things like that. But I really i'm i was a 3D artist by trade and an animator by trade. And I was really interested in, like, is there a way to do a puzzle in three d And I don't think I really realized that, to be honest.
00:04:42
Speaker
But i I was trying to find a way to make a 3D grid game, basically. I don't know how else to describe it. It's mostly a game where you can change the shape of your character and you kind of roll around as this big 3D shape.
00:04:55
Speaker
um And you're your goal is to get to kind of like a certain goal
LabRat Development and Themes
00:04:59
Speaker
location. And at the time, I was really... um I had just seen a film called La La Land, and I was really into the music and the vibe that that film was about. And I was just kind of, I really wanted to do something light and happy because I felt like I was always working on grimdark stuff.
00:05:16
Speaker
ah So Kine was meant to be this kind of happy, whimsical game about being these musical instruments that are moving around in 3D space. um And I had a great time making it. It was really fun.
00:05:29
Speaker
um Yeah, and then that i made enough money off of that that I could do another game. ah And so I had met this really awesome puzzle designer, Lucas Leslow, in your Discord, Alan. And i at the time, I just...
00:05:45
Speaker
There was things I liked about Kine. I will admit I'm not the best puzzle designer. I didn't really want to make all the puzzles. I liked coming up with the ideas, but I really liked collaborating with Lucas. Lucas and I kind of collaborated on a jam.
00:05:59
Speaker
Well, one jam together. a hum And i I liked the idea of like coming up with these and, you know, brainstorming mechanics and implementing it programming it, and then like letting Lucas just go nuts and make cool puzzles.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so we decided to do that. And that's kind of where LabRat started. i think the very first, like our jam game was actually about COVID and about getting, trying not to get sick while you're moving around a grocery store. And it was really gross and like funny, but that was obviously not going to be a mass market product or anything like that. So we, we actually sat down and we kind of said, okay, if we' we're going to make a real game out of this, what do we make?
00:06:43
Speaker
um And we were, how I put it? We basically, at the time, there was this idea of like, okay, so you've got this shopping cart and your goal is to keep people away from you using this shopping cart. ah But sides of the shopping cart could get like, and you know, back then they were like, if you touch the side of a thing, it'll get infected.
00:07:01
Speaker
And there were elements of that and the mechanics there that we liked. But we didn't want that theme and we wanted to just start exploring in a different direction. So we changed it to being like, all right, there's going to be some kind of cube and it's going to be able to get an electrical charge on one of four sides.
00:07:17
Speaker
And you got to you know, navigate around a space. And we kind of just slowly started with the mechanics and we tried to build a story around that. And um from there, my job was kind of to come up with like a vibe and a feel to kind of make something that would mean more than, okay, you're pushing a cube around, right? Like I wanted to make a game ah kind of captured a feeling, but I didn't really know what feeling I wanted. I was, this was during, i started this right when COVID had begun. And so I wanted to like,
00:07:45
Speaker
i was I felt like we were all alone in front of monitors being really stressed out by our machines. And I kind of wanted to capture that feeling.
00:07:57
Speaker
ah So in a fucked up way, I guess it still is a bit about COVID. But it ah I wanted to capture this feeling of just being like, having to go through your day and do your job and, you know, feeling like you're confined in this space and you're, you know, climbing up the walls. And I tried to take that and coalesce that and elaborate, but I also like didn't want to be sad.
00:08:19
Speaker
So I wanted to make something funny. And I was really, was honestly inspired by portal, which I think is pretty obvious if you start playing the game, but I started to come up with the idea of like, okay, so you're going to be this character, this, this person, this tester.
00:08:33
Speaker
who's in a facility, whose job it is to be stuck in these, in these mazes, like a, like a lab rat. And you're supposed to try to figure out how to solve these puzzles while, ah and maybe there is no other human to interact with. Maybe what you're interacting with is like and some sort of artificial intelligence, something that's just, just these two monitors, this computer that's kind of just pushing you forward at all times. And,
00:09:00
Speaker
Can we make that absurd and amusing and and fun? um And that's kind of what LabRat is. And that's what I've been spending way too much time on over the years. And that's where we are now.
00:09:13
Speaker
That was way too long. I'm so sorry. No, you're good. ah I mean, one thing we haven't said yet, I guess, is that at the time this episode gets released, then LabRat will either be coming out imminently or will have just come out.
00:09:26
Speaker
So congrats. I will thank that's future you. Congrats to that person. I can't wait to meet her.
00:09:35
Speaker
i want to beat her so bad. it has been too long. You're so close. You're so close, Gwen. Yeah. oh yeah. No, because this episode seems like it's going to be mid-April.
00:09:48
Speaker
Yep. So right when great when we launch, that'll be great. We'll be out on PC and Xbox. Please check it out. Please do. The puzzles are quite good. Lucas did a phenomenal job.
00:09:59
Speaker
Puzzles are very good. The comedy is very good. And boy, it really goes places. ah Yeah, doesn't it?
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah, we ah lost our mind at some point there. This has really increased in scope far beyond what it should have. But it's been a great time, man. I had a good time making it.
00:10:21
Speaker
I worked on it until I could not anymore because there was no more money.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. I was going to ask like what, so the scope of lab rat, ah Much, much larger than the scope of Kine.
00:10:40
Speaker
You know, obviously not the largest scope game you've worked on in your career. It doesn't have MMO elements. But can you walk me through your, like, sort of the curve of your feelings about the
Managing Game Scope
00:10:53
Speaker
scope? Like, were you always happy about the scope? Were you, like, afraid of the scope at some points?
00:11:00
Speaker
Oh, frequently afraid of the scope. um Frequently. Like, the... um Man, I'm trying to think of an elegant way to put this. So we started out with, i I didn't want, I didn't want there to be more than say about 10 puzzles that explored any given mechanic.
00:11:18
Speaker
And I felt like there's just no way to have more than 10 puzzles that are interesting around just one idea. People, there is a certain kind of joy in discovering a new idea, a new kind of a thing.
00:11:32
Speaker
um And i I know there are puzzle games I play where they, the The whole point is to fully explore the idea. But, you know, you get to a place where some of...
00:11:42
Speaker
the there's a so yeah i miss that delight of like, oh, this is a new shiny thing. And I also especially feel like if you want a more mass market game, you need to give people new shiny things a little more often.
00:11:54
Speaker
um And I didn't feel like we had enough Eureka moments to really push any given... theme or puzzle idea more than say about six to eight puzzles really.
00:12:07
Speaker
um And so a lot of what we did was me breaking Lucas's heart by cutting down to about a third of what he made, like almost immediately. Every time he would make something, at cut two thirds. I'd be like, okay, these are the the best ones.
00:12:19
Speaker
So what we ended up with was a very diverse bunch of ideas. And I had to wrap those in some kind of narrative wrapper. And then what would happen is I'd need a way to get from like one idea to another.
00:12:32
Speaker
And I'd come up with a narrative, but to tell that narrative, I would need more puzzles. But because I would need more puzzles, well, we would need to come up with a new idea for there. So then there'd be a new mechanic, a new, i a new thing that was added. i don't want to spoil too much, but like,
00:12:49
Speaker
we would add a new thing that would help us bridge that gap. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, now we're back at that place where we've added more scope. and It's hard to explain, but it did just kind of grow and grow and grow.
00:13:00
Speaker
And I don't feel like we have an absurd number of puzzles. We're at like, what, 120 or 130 or so? Like, it's not insane. um i think the scope increase was largely narrative and art-driven.
00:13:15
Speaker
um And I think that is... If it had just been Lucas and me, I think we probably would have shipped probably two years ago. I think it's a combination of really pursuing ah some of my other partners that I took on a little later really wanted to pursue excellence as far as like the humor goes and the art goes.
00:13:33
Speaker
And that did drag things out a little bit. Like I'll say in all seriousness, Lucas did most of his work within like a year and then came back and did like another month each year since then. But maybe...
00:13:45
Speaker
But honestly, i think a lot of the work and the scope creep has definitely been in the narrative and in the ah art. I don't know if I answered your question. No, you're you're totally fine. I was, yeah, just like the relationship to the scope.
00:13:59
Speaker
Because i think it's one thing for there to be a large team making a large scope game. But for there to be an incredibly small team that is working on a game that just organically balloons and balloons.
00:14:15
Speaker
It's like under normal, it's a different beast. Under normal circumstances, like this would have been, um how do I put it? This would have, this could be considered a failure by a lot of different, if your goal was to like set out and make a production, ah plan and, and execute that plan.
00:14:33
Speaker
We have failed that plan utterly. There's no question. But I mean, if you think about it, it's like I had the money and I was at a point in my life where like, I started working on this game with Lucas and then I had a kid.
00:14:44
Speaker
And I had that kid during COVID and I didn't have child like child care. And that meant I could only work on the game here or there and I had to take on some other partners. And those other partners had other ideas and i i work with people that I want to have ideas, right?
00:15:00
Speaker
and so then Then things kind of start moving in different directions and and the scope can kind of increase in that way. um And because of the way the development has gone and because like I keep getting pulled onto it and off of it it again and then I have to revisit it again like six months later.
00:15:18
Speaker
I mean, I've never off of the game fully like for more than a couple days, but... It is hard to make a game while you're watching a kid full time for those first couple years. And that did drag things out and simultaneously, weirdly enough, increased scope rather than reduced it.
00:15:36
Speaker
And so it makes sense to me how we got to here. But it is very difficult to explain to other people other than, yeah, scope creep happened in a big way, but it's fine. Like, it was just part of my life during this period.
00:15:48
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, I think it allowed the game... to to lean into some of the weirder less expected elements of itself um like feel like even from the start you wanted to make something that wasn't quite what it appeared at first glance but like is it is that accurate is that is that how you feel about it Yeah, I mean, i do think, yes, definitely. It definitely did allow me to walk away, come back with completely different ideas, and then pursue them to their fullest.
00:16:27
Speaker
It let me break down the game into chunks, which it's hard to explain. But yes, it it does let the game take some pretty big narrative and mechanical twists. What do you think?
00:16:37
Speaker
I mean, obviously, like, other than glowing reviews, and like,
Hopes and Inspirations for LabRat
00:16:44
Speaker
champagne money, maybe but enough money to buy a yacht, like, what are you hoping for from the launch? And by that, I mean, like, what are you most hopeful that players will connect with?
00:16:56
Speaker
Oh, man. i just I always want to make people laugh. I think it's a beautiful thing if you can make people laugh. And I think if people walk away from this and they are you know and they they had a good time and they remember the experience fondly the way I remember Portal and Portal 2 fondly, like that would be beautiful.
00:17:14
Speaker
I'm not saying this is as good as Portal. I do want to manage expectations. they you know i'm ah This But the... but the um I just, that means so much more to me.
00:17:26
Speaker
You know, you get a yacht, Saren, and like, you got to maintain that yacht. And it seems like a lot. No, that's fair. That's I like, I don't, I don't want to that kind of responsibility. The yacht responsibility isn't, isn't my style. But like, if I can go up to somebody to at a show and I, somebody recognizes the t-shirts,
00:17:46
Speaker
and says, oh, that made me laugh so hard, that means everything, right? Like I still love going to different shows like PAX and seeing people dressed up as Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite. I still have like an album of cosplayers and things like that. It means something when your work reaches people and that they so and when they remember it years later.
00:18:06
Speaker
To me, that's always the best. So you're looking for Cube from Lab Rat cosplayers?
00:18:13
Speaker
That would be, um yeah. Yeah. Euler, I think would have made an interesting cosplay. also I was going to say, where are all the kind cosplays? Oh, sorry. thought you were talking about that. Yeah. The cube from Labrat. Maybe i do think the tester, the unnamed tester would make a better outfit.
00:18:31
Speaker
Like at it the tactical gear from Labrat. Yeah. The electric cube, I think, would be, i mean, I guess there are people that dress up as, what is it, a Dalek?
00:18:43
Speaker
A Dalek? suppose A Dalek, yes. Yeah, there we go. Hey, Alan, how come the British person on this call was not the one that came up with that name?
00:18:57
Speaker
ah Because Darcylis was so far from Dalek in my brain that's like, well, I guess this is some really, really obscure Doctor Who monster like that i that I just don't recognize by a name. No, ok okay. Okay. Dalek. Okay. Just wanted to call out the British person. Oh, no. Yeah.
00:19:17
Speaker
don't know why my mind went there. But yeah, like I guess the cube would be a fun cosplay. yeah But yeah, I don't know. I think reaching people, um having them remember your game years later, I think that's always the best.
00:19:31
Speaker
I'd love to dig in more to what it was like working with Lucas. Like I know you said it was like ah a lot of start and then more intermittently have the course, but like he's a great puzzle designer.
00:19:42
Speaker
um I'm curious, like what kind of direction were you giving him? Oh man, working with Lucas is honestly the highlight of all of this. And i my the biggest shame is that this dragged on so long I didn't get to work with him more.
00:19:57
Speaker
He is awesome. um So why is Lucas so awesome? I guess it was a combination of I would come up with an idea and I would show it to him and he would get very excited and he would come up with he would do surprising things ah with what I gave him. So I would give him...
00:20:17
Speaker
like I got him set up with the Unreal Editor and i would give him certain design elements to place and he would do he would break things and he would come up with surprising ideas that would then spawn new mechanics and new ideas. and ah Some of it was like figuring out bugs or figuring out how different things should interact or once you've added a certain number of elements or you know puzzle ideas to something different. Once you add enough interactions, then suddenly do you get combinatoric reactions that I wouldn't expect.
00:20:48
Speaker
um And he would, I guess he just is a person that really wants to fully explore every single one of those. Another thing is he we would brainstorm mechanics site together.
00:20:58
Speaker
i think we just feeded on each other's energy a lot in a really good way too. um He was always really eager. He was always really fast. he was always um He was always excited to do to to to explore different things. He wasn't that hurt when I said that like we can't do all these puzzles or I'd cut a lot of the harder ones.
00:21:19
Speaker
think the hardest thing about working with Lucas is that ah His work is phenomenal, but it does tend... Sokoban puzzle games can get very challenging for the mass market. And I wanted a game that was challenging and interesting.
00:21:34
Speaker
um But to me personally, ah puzzle being difficult doesn't necessarily mean it's a great eureka moment or that it's particularly interesting. I think you can have a really interesting puzzle with that isn't necessarily super difficult.
00:21:50
Speaker
ah its It's kind of hard to explain, but like... There are interesting puzzles that have great eureka moments that are difficult. There's also interesting puzzles that have great eureka moments that are kind of ah don't have as many things to explore and therefore tend to be a little bit um more approachable.
00:22:09
Speaker
And i I do tend to pull Lucas more towards the second one, I think. And I think over time we both came to appreciate each other. Like he definitely pushed he definitely pushed the game a lot further as far as ah making sure we fully explore things and making sure that we explore the combination of every mechanic.
00:22:26
Speaker
At one point he took down, yeah actually made a spreadsheet of every mechanic in the game, like horizontally and vertically. And he made a check mark to make sure he fully explored every combination, which was pretty fun.
00:22:37
Speaker
And then I think he did it again with like, what if we have three mechanics in each thing? But yeah, I could go on and on. But like for the most part, working with Lucas in general was just the best um because he has that skill set, that mentality to really just pursue exactly this.
00:22:55
Speaker
And he has been so focused on puzzle games for so long that it's almost like instinct to him. Yeah, because ah we are working with Lucas on currently unannounced Draknek game that we will be announcing probably within a month of this podcast coming out, and we'll be having him on the podcast, I'm sure.
00:23:16
Speaker
and yeah, just a very smart designer. Very good at taking design ideas and then just quietly iterating and then presenting great twists.
00:23:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, definitely. And he definitely got, um it was more fun too when he started to just play. I'd be like, give me a puzzle that's in a fun shape. Give me a puzzle that's, you know, and instead of making something that necessarily has a really good moment, do something that, you know, captures this feeling.
00:23:48
Speaker
I want to feel like this puzzle is going to be different. This puzzle is going to be a maze where you have to get from the beginning to the end. And it's not about moving the block to the right place, you know, and, and, If you just give him a weird prompt like that, he will actually deeply enjoy exploring it.
00:24:03
Speaker
And it does tend to... Pushing out of that comfort zone of just, oh, just going to make a good puzzle. Yeah. And I think we both, I think that's why we had so much fun working together. I hope he enjoyed working with me. I loved working working with Lucas.
00:24:15
Speaker
He was great. So once this podcast comes out and you're shipping and let's say wait a month or so for bunk reports and et cetera, et cetera.
Personal Life Changes
00:24:27
Speaker
If you listen to your soul, what does your soul want to do next? Do you want to like just take a long break? Do you want to do game jams? Do you want to do you immediately already have a bunch of ideas for the next project that you've been sitting on while finishing up LabRat?
00:24:42
Speaker
No, man. My mind is locked into like a silent scream right now because the, um I mean, I'm pregnant with twins and I have taken so long on this project partly because like I had a kid in the middle of it and I had to figure that out and buy a house and, you know, everything.
00:24:57
Speaker
um And during COVID. And so I was excited to have another kid. I was not expecting twins. Yeah. i Most people don't.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah. So now I'm like, oh, God, we like I've been waiting until the game launches to figure it all out. And once the game launches, I will have a month to figure it all out. Like, where do they? Oh, my God, a month. Where do they sleep?
00:25:19
Speaker
um Well, I mean, it's hard to say twins come early. So yeah ah it could be two a month. I mean, it's going to be fine. Yeah. Yes. So are the odds?
00:25:31
Speaker
it's you know let's just chill uh but but yeah like uh i'm it's difficult for me to see beyond the void that is the rest of this year i feel like about a year ago or sorry not a year ago i feel like ah a couple years ago back when i had rose i i probably fell into obscurity i disappeared for a while and i was just heads down on the game and on my family and like my elderly parents moved up to live with us up here in Massachusetts. And there was just a lot of work around that kind of stuff.
00:25:59
Speaker
And I feel like there's probably going to be another phase here for like a year where I just go offline. um And then I'll come back and hopefully... I'll just start making puzzles again. Hopefully with Lucas. That'd be great. I've already kind of been like, hey, this didn't suck, did it?
00:26:15
Speaker
So hopefully he'll still be around in a year and he'll want to work with me on something new. um I do have prototypes. I think ah i I'll admit I haven't been thinking about it as much as I used to, though.
00:26:27
Speaker
um Just because I've got so much coming up that it's hard to take anything seriously right now. That's totally fair. I think I'm just thinking about like, with all of the life stuff throughout LabRat, what was the impetus for working with a publisher?
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, think... think There is a reality of making games and surviving in this industry um and making an income in this industry ah where if you are an American, the advantage you have is that you are close to the publishers and the platforms.
00:27:09
Speaker
um And you need to take advantage of that because it is also an extremely expensive country. And it's very difficult to make a living making games here unless you have The deal to be a launch title on Stadia, you know, and so like the the kinds of shit I did, I didn't do that because it was fun.
00:27:27
Speaker
It's not like fun making crap tons of PowerPoints and, you know, aligning your game to match the product description of what these platforms want. Like fucking nobody likes making PowerPoints.
00:27:40
Speaker
right but like getting very good at going to GDC in pa and PAX and PAX West and um Gamescom and um always be touching base with the different publishers to hear what the different platforms are doing and pitching the different platforms and trying to get that money. You know, that was a huge part of you know what I did at both the molasses flood and honestly for my own company.
00:28:05
Speaker
I mean, that's how I've survived. And once i COVID hit and I couldn't go to GDC and i you know, bought a house in Boston. So I'm like far away from everything.
Industry Challenges and Publisher Support
00:28:14
Speaker
I realized that I was coasting on relationships that were probably not going to last very long.
00:28:20
Speaker
um And I yeah kind of talked to, um I basically hit up a couple of private investors. One of them was Jamie Chang ah at the time. And he he was a silent investor in LabRat very early on.
00:28:38
Speaker
I'm trying to remember. I think he gave me like 50 grand. And he said, ah okay, like I will invest in this. we We made up a little contract, just the two of us. um And he's the president of a company called Clay. They make ah Don't Starve.
00:28:50
Speaker
And after a couple years, ah he said, hey, we're actually spining up ah spinning up publishing here at Clay. Let's just turn this over into a Clay thing. Is that okay? And we renegotiated that and they became my publisher. And I think...
00:29:02
Speaker
I really, really needed that. um So for LabRat, the reason I'm not you know destitute is because Clay got a ah deal with Netflix.
00:29:14
Speaker
So at launch, LabRat was supposed to come out on Netflix. And I did actually lose about a year of my life porting this fucking game to mobile, um which sucked because then Netflix canceled that deal but still had to pay us because that's how contracts work.
00:29:31
Speaker
And that's a whole conversation I could go into a different thing. But like, anyway, because of that, I had the money to to hang out and make this game. um And I owe Clay a lot for that. And I'm extremely grateful.
00:29:42
Speaker
I think that's honestly, people talk about the different things publishers do for you. And they say the number one thing is marketing. I think marketing is like maybe number one marketing slash having a community built in already. That's like maybe even number one, maybe number two.
00:29:57
Speaker
um Because the other thing is the relationships with the platforms and the ability to get these deals, I think is really good for small, tiny teams like me and ah other, you know, sub 10 person studios.
00:30:11
Speaker
And so they were great because they did that. They are also just an awesome publisher to work with. ah I can speak very highly of Clay. um I don't remember your question. I hope that answered it, Saren.
00:30:23
Speaker
It did. No, thank you. I was, yeah. You know, I'm happy as that it's worked out for you. Yeah, I'm sorry. didn't mean to dump my baggage on you. was like, yeah, I'm going to be a fucking mobile port for a year. No, seriously, though, I did. I forgot about that. That's like, I feel like literally already blacked that out. That was canceled in December.
00:30:42
Speaker
Look, I'm glad that your trauma response is already kicking in over the development of this game. And I'm glad that we're getting the interview in now as opposed to in two years when you won't have remembered any of it.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's already disappearing. It's fading. And like, at least they paid for the game. And if they hadn't canceled it, then probably would have been having to ship it after having okay It would have been tight. I'm not going to lie. Well, I mean, we were going to launch, um no matter what, we were going to launch about mid-April.
00:31:17
Speaker
So we were then going to um soft launch Insert Territories on mobile ah in April and officially launch, I think, in June. So it would have worked out.
00:31:31
Speaker
Possibly. Hopefully. um But so no matter what. No matter what, it was probably going to be about this timeline, kind of. Are you, ah now that you have a, what I'm guessing is a mostly finished mobile port, are you even considering releasing that on your own? Or is it just a nah, forget that, put it back in the drawer?
00:31:55
Speaker
You know, we're far enough along that I really considered it. And then I looked at the, like how much money we we would make and just the amount of work just to finish off. Like ah yeah the last little bits without a publisher. Like we have a publisher, but wow.
00:32:11
Speaker
Without a platform deal. Yeah, there's the money's not there. Yeah, it's not. It wouldn't have even covered, because I still did need to do some QA. like i Netflix was doing QA for us, and then without them, we don't have them doing QA, so I'd have to hire a QA company on mobile. And I'm like close enough to giving birth that I'm just like, you know, I can't bring this into my It's not like Clay does a lot of mobile publishing.
00:32:37
Speaker
No, I don't think this is their bread and butter either. they Especially not, ah let's say premium bespoke experiences that have a defined end. Well, I mean, they do have um one out on Apple Arcade, if I recall, that Hot Lava game.
00:32:52
Speaker
Oh, yes. Yeah. So they've they've got, and I think they put a couple of other ones out there on mobile. They've dabbled in consoles as well. um they They do launch on these different platforms, on basically every platform, but their bread and butter, I think, personally is Steam.
00:33:07
Speaker
I would say that they they really excel it at Steam and in building their own audience, specifically off of Steam. And I think that's something that's very smart. I think being a company that can – if you can get your audience into a Discord or into forum or just build a community somewhere that isn't tethered to you know Google or Steam, Valve, or one of these other large tech companies, if you can own your customers, that's huge.
00:33:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, Alan and – You own your customers. I mean that, but we also think about like the – this The slow decline of the mobile ecosystem every now and then, especially for, like I was saying, ah games that have a bespoke start and finish.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we'll see where that goes. The sky is always falling, you know, pendulum is always swinging. I think we are definitely in a dark place in the industry generally right now.
Current Gaming Industry Landscape
00:34:09
Speaker
Oh, yes. I think the ah you're right that standing out on mobile has become extremely difficult and that we are definitely in need of a new blue ocean.
00:34:19
Speaker
ah Yeah. I think Netflix is at GDC um looking for flagship titles for more of their streaming stuff. Like they were, I was part of, there's different divisions of Netflix and LabRot was supposed to be one for, ah like they were trying to, do I put it?
00:34:36
Speaker
In the past, Netflix had an initiative where they were trying to figure out people who like what movie, like what kind of game. Yep. And so they were trying to build a large catalog of a variety of different kinds of games to kind of figure out their recommendation engine.
00:34:50
Speaker
And they kind of wound that down. So like LabRack got canceled, a a ton of other games got canceled, right? ah But they did not wind down. And in fact, I think our spinning up there, okay, now we want to see if we can stream games.
00:35:03
Speaker
And I think they're they're funding ah streaming games. I mean, I would hope that they're not winding it down with all the acquisitions they made. they They shut down their AAA studio, but ah Night School and um oh Spry Fox are still owned by Netflix now.
00:35:24
Speaker
Spry Fox is interesting because they're large and successful, but they're also, they feel indie. They're so distributed. Yeah. they They are. i had the ah privilege of working with them to bring out a physical version of Cozy Grove on Switch and PS5.
00:35:40
Speaker
And what an easy to work with team. Yeah, they they feel I know a couple of people that work there here in Boston. I've met the president of the company out in Seattle.
00:35:51
Speaker
Like they are, they definitely operate kind of like an indie company. um They have kind of smaller teams on each project. They're interesting. Yeah. Also, speaking of ah state of the industry, we were talking a bit before ah we hit record about how you've been relatively heads down and that has encompassed news.
00:36:14
Speaker
So I just wanted to tell you that the state of the industry is gamers revolting at the idea of paying full price for Grand Theft Auto 6. Okay.
00:36:26
Speaker
Is this like a big thing on the Internet right now? ah it was It was like two months ago. People were very, very upset at the idea that Grand Theft Auto 6 might cost money. Man, can you imagine like can you imagine like the when the problems in your life are the game I love costs more than I can afford right now?
00:36:46
Speaker
I mean, there is other forms of entertainment. I don't know. like yeah And all the other entertainment you basically get for free or or no, you're tricked into thinking you get it for free. Yeah, I was going to say, you know, YouTube, you it's ads and data harvesting, but you can watch 100 hours of YouTube content without paying out of your wallet.
00:37:11
Speaker
yeah You don't need like... If you can't afford GTA 6, I'm sorry. But also, those people... Well, I was going to say those people need to afford rent, but more more mostly that's for shareholders, unfortunately.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's hard. like Let me try to put myself in the mindset of somebody that that would be really, really hurt about this. I could see a world where, you know, everything sucks and you need to escape and your escape is this one game, whatever it is. You know, for me, it's probably Civ.
00:37:42
Speaker
And... The game came out, but it's something's wrong with it or it's it's just too much money and you can't afford it and you feel like the only thing that you use in the world to escape is beyond you and you can't have it right now.
00:37:56
Speaker
I could see that being kind of shitty. I hope they're not like death threats on the internet shitty, but like so long as they're like... Yeah, well... Yeah, okay. So, well, that's not okay. but It's gamers.
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah. Capital G, not lowercase g gamers. We like lowercase g gamers here ah at Dracnik and Friends. I see. But capital G gamers.
00:38:20
Speaker
I see. Those are the problem ones then, yeah? Yeah, those those those are the ones that seemingly ah were born carrying angry mob pitchforks.
00:38:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And you're like, I'm sorry that you love video games so much, but they don't seem to be giving you so much joy that it's improving your quality of life.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Grand Theft Auto, I think it's easier for us because Grand Theft Auto is probably not a game. Yeah, I mean, yes. it's just It's just easy shorthand of like biggest, what whichever year it's going to come out, it's going to be the biggest game of that year.
00:38:59
Speaker
interesting. I remember when I was in high school and college, it was all about making fun of the Cod Bros. There's like the kind of gamer that would sit around and like figure out shit with a spreadsheet, you know, because like our games required figuring out shit with a spreadsheet. And then there's the fucking Cod Bros.
00:39:15
Speaker
And I feel like this is this is big. This is a bunch of nerds. We're all the the nerdy, you know, we're the real gamers. So Ren, you know, the nerds. The lowercase g gamers and those fucking COD bros are just riding over there.
00:39:28
Speaker
and oh What is it now? It's not COD. It's the Grand Theft Auto bros are there. Yeah, it's Fortnite, Roblox. See, I thought of those as more kid games. God, am I getting old? Oh, so Roblox really doesn't want you to think of it as a kid game because then they would have to face laws.
00:39:45
Speaker
I see. ah So they really want you to think of it as an adult game that's really safe to leave your children on. Oh, God. It's being a parent that shit's horrifying, too. Because, like, yeah you navigate the spaces of parents who are like, video games are evil. What do you do for a living? And was like, oh, um you know, i make puzzles?
00:40:05
Speaker
Oh, my books are good. Promoting thinking. Critical thinking. my i I have a family member who ah loves that I do something I love, but every time she sees me, she's just like...
00:40:20
Speaker
And now you're not working on those games with guns in them, are you? And I'm like, I shouldn't say that on record. Anyways.
00:40:32
Speaker
um Okay. Awesome. Do you have, um I mean, im sure you have lots of questions for us because we've known you for a while and you've known Alan years. So long.
00:40:43
Speaker
But ah do you have any specific questions for us for the podcast? Oh, Jesus. What have you done for the last several years? No, I guess like most of my, I, you know, I'm kidding. That sounds like accusatory. No, I was like, we no, like what is the industry doing now? Like, I guess, ah let let me ask a more coherent question, I guess. Like, um,
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah. How has the industry changed over the last couple
Marketing Strategies in Gaming
00:41:05
Speaker
years? What's a good way to put this specifically with like marketing and like, how do you reach your customers? Do you mostly, you guys are unique. You have your discord and I think you mostly work through your discord these days, right?
00:41:18
Speaker
Not quite. It's ever-evolving. um Our studio manager, Mari, would also be a great person to ah give an answer to this question. But in lieu of that, like you were talking about earlier, owning your customers is important. I think that it's hard to...
00:41:39
Speaker
It's easy to own your customer when your game doesn't get big, and it's but the the bigger your game gets, the harder it is. um So as an example, Luck Digital came out in December.
00:41:50
Speaker
That's thankfully successful to the point where there are people that there are a ton of people that are playing it that I've never heard of, which is always design, right?
00:42:01
Speaker
It's like, oh, it's not just my friends that are playing this. Thank goodness. Yeah. Yeah, because ah like the the Discord is great, but the Discord means that we can release a game and well all all these people who we're already connected to will be excited about playing it.
00:42:19
Speaker
ah And if you have a Discord that has like 500,000 people in it, then great, good for you. But if your Discord is like several thousand people, that's... You know, about...
00:42:33
Speaker
ah 80 of which post in the Drackneck and Friends channel. um Yeah, but I mean, your your reach is going to be about 10x your Discord, right? like Because your reach is... Those people, if they like what they played, they'll recommend it to their friends, to their family. The hope is there. ah i mean, i think it also comes down to like how niche is your game.
00:42:56
Speaker
ah If you... Look, I'm just saying, speaking in hypotheticals here, if you make a game that is themed like a school subject, people are less likely to recommend it, we found.
00:43:09
Speaker
um but Guns. Guns. Put guns in your game. People will like that, right? like Yeah. never if No one associates that with school. Also, maybe...
00:43:20
Speaker
you know, like racing, cars, things like that. Yeah, cars and racing. You try steal some of this Grand Theft Auto. You're like, yeah hey, I here you can't get your GTA. You know what's cheaper? This puzzle game about cars and guns and shit.
00:43:33
Speaker
Yeah, hey, Alan, why don't we make puzzle games about crime? yeah I mean, we could. oh i mean, it would be... I pitched a heist game.
00:43:44
Speaker
You did. It would be very funny to ah release an M-rated game uh gwen did we tell you this this would have been years ago so i think this was before you went fully ahead so did we tell you that the original age rating of bonfire peaks was 18 plus oh why uh in europe because uh it was based on a form like a checkbox form right uh iark and it was like you control a humanoid There is a possibility that your character gets punished for failure.
00:44:17
Speaker
The punishment can include getting shot through with an arrow and red blood comes out. Cartoon violence is different from actual violence. Oh, it is, but the form doesn't know that.
00:44:28
Speaker
So the form said 18 plus and then a human looked at it and said ah seven. Yeah, yeah. We did. ah I'm trying to remember. IARC can be fun sometimes. I went back and edited the IARC for LabRat recently to indicate that there was a fart joke.
00:44:44
Speaker
And that changed the rating only in Russia. Yes. From like zero to like six plus or something. Yeah, Russia. Wow. Russia and crude humor. Yep.
00:44:55
Speaker
Yeah, they don't. In Russia, you can't you can't let five-year-olds find fart jokes funny. Yeah, apparently. Who would have thought they would be the stuffy ones? That's interesting. Yeah, there's a bunch of regions in the world where if you have, if you so essentially say damn one time, the lowest you can get is a 12 plus. Hmm.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, my husband and I have regular regular conversations on whether or not crap is a swear word. ah This comes up all the time. And I'm like, that's a swear word. He's like, no, it's not.
00:45:27
Speaker
ah We've gone back and forth on this. I think I'm going to be the crap centrist here. And I'm going to say it's not a swear word, but it's profane.
00:45:38
Speaker
Okay. I like that. um i'm looking I think it's profanity, but I don't think that it's i don't i don't think that you're it's swearing. Okay. Would you say it around three-year-old?
00:45:50
Speaker
No. There you go. all No, because of ah because I wouldn't want to be perfect. I mean, i I taught middle schoolers for a couple years there, and like, let me tell you, trying your hardest not to not to repeat the shit that they say back to you, like, back to them, is like, ugh.
00:46:14
Speaker
they They will say whatever they want. They have no filter in middle school. They learned a cool word on YouTube that week. oh i mean it's It's probably not going to scar them for life. But the the flip side of that is like, if they start using the word, do you want to be blamed?
00:46:33
Speaker
That's that solves the real risk. No, I'm not going to be the one where the parents are like, well, my teacher said it. To get back to the original question, I think we've been i think we've gotten in a lot better at marketing in the last few years.
00:46:48
Speaker
That sure was the question. That was the question. Okay. what um How so? What have you guys been doing the last couple of years that's new? We've spent a lot of energy building up our email lists, like email...
00:47:01
Speaker
feels like a really reliable way to reach people. Yes. And we'll get like 50% open rates on those. And that feels like... It feels impactful to like over the course of a year, add another 500 to 1,000 people to the mailing list.
00:47:18
Speaker
ah Partly we've gotten better at like thinking through you like Sorin was mentioning like, oh Is this a good marketable idea? Should we be making a game about chemistry or should we may be making ah game about a spaceship?
00:47:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, your product is going to be what matters more than any marketing. um Like, product fit is obviously huge. i will I will say, um here here is our life hack that ah we proved out through the through Luck Digital.
00:47:52
Speaker
If you have a demo on NextFest, this works especially well for um puzzle games, but really any video game that has distinct isolated levels. ah If you have a demo out for like Nextest or Cerebral Puzzle Showcase or right any of these events on Steam, gate 10% of your levels behind signing up for your email ah newsletter in the game.
00:48:15
Speaker
Ooh. Interesting. If you get to the end of the level, say, thank you. We hope you enjoyed the demo. There is more if you give us your email. Huh. That worked so well.
00:48:26
Speaker
That's clever. I love People really wanted more game. And so they were really, and then, ah you know, that the open rates didn't change. They didn't dilute. That is a great hack. I love it.
00:48:39
Speaker
ah So everyone who's listening this far past all of the profanity can enjoy that little life hack. No, that's a great pro tip. I love it. I think demos in general came back in a big way in the last five years.
00:48:53
Speaker
yes. I mean, Steam like really decided they wanted to they wanted people to have demos on Steam. Yeah. As soon as NextFest became there, it's like, okay, this is the, not since the Xbox 360 have I seen people this excited about demos.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think, honestly, um I also think Next Fest was fantastic. The first couple. they've maybe I've heard it's gotten like nowhere near what it once was.
00:49:22
Speaker
yeah it's It's very diluted now that there's four a year and the ah they stopped really trying to surface any games that they especially believe in.
00:49:33
Speaker
I mean, that was always... Becoming one of those games that they especially believe in was always kind of like, you got to know somebody at Steam. Oh, you got to know somebody and that somebody has to not just know you, they have to like you.
00:49:46
Speaker
Yeah, like there's so much that in this industry. Even that now, like the number of people who can get better promotion because they know somebody at Steam and they really like you is like so small.
00:49:58
Speaker
I know, yeah. that's where This is where publishers are becoming more and more important. To be able to talk more. like Honestly, ah it's it's also just like a publisher by virtue of having a portfolio has more reason to have consistent communication with a platform.
00:50:16
Speaker
That's true. Yeah. I mean, they're just going to have a better relationship than you ever will as a small indie dev. I just think you kind of have to sign in with a publisher at this point to survive. Well, if there are publishers that are still out there funding games.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah. there ah I mean, the money's moving. ah the We're going to get ah get new platforms soon. By the time this comes out, I think something will be announced. and ah Yes, the Nintendo Switch 2 Direct will have happened two weeks before this episode comes out. Okay, there you go. ah So you'll you'll have that.
00:50:52
Speaker
With a new platform, there's always a new wave of interest in like funding games from the platforms. like These things are cyclical. their Games are still a growing market.
00:51:03
Speaker
Games are still a massive market. And at the end of the day, when you look at like the amount of money it takes to make a game versus the amount of money you get out of it, um it is higher than some other forms of entertainment like film. and ah So we still...
00:51:19
Speaker
You know, you think that I don't know explain this, but like people with money who look at things in the big macro way, you know, like the fuckers at Harvard who have like, Oh God, who are, you know looking at their spreadsheets and then telling the, the various people who fund things where they should put their money.
00:51:43
Speaker
You know, venture capitalists, they swing back and forth, but they they will come back to games. They always do. They usually come back to games in a weird way. Like, first, they're only going to – it's so ridiculous. Like, when I was in San Francisco years ago, when I was starting my career, everything was all – like HTML5, and then it was all, we all need to be making and MMOs.
00:52:06
Speaker
And then what other cycles have we gone through? We all need to be investing in the crypto games or whatever. Yeah, Web3. Now it's ah Gen ai and Gen ai that fad will go.
00:52:18
Speaker
And there's always going to be a crap ton of money in that for the people who chase that. But there's also just generally an interest in trying to make more money in games. And this is just coming from a bean counters with Harvard degrees seeing that there's opportunity here.
00:52:33
Speaker
And it seems ridiculous, but that money funnels around in weird ways. It ends up funding new platforms, new, ah it ends up in the pockets of these publishers who then put that money in the hands of the developers. Like it funnels down eventually. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to catch up with you.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. This was fun. I'd love to do this again. Yeah. Yeah. let's ah Let's make a point of doing it after the twins. Oh, that'll be it'll be a while after the twins then.
00:53:09
Speaker
Yes. Yep. So I'll have plenty to chat about. I'll talk to you in a year when I've come out of the hole. All right. Well, thank thank you very much again. and thank you for listening to the Drack Naked Friends official podcast.
00:53:22
Speaker
Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak.
00:53:33
Speaker
Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
00:53:46
Speaker
you