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Episode 24: The Electrifying Incident Retrospective
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In this episode...
Well, sometimes when you set out to create something, it doesn't actually end up looking at all like what your goal was. That statement applies to both this podcast episode as well as The Electrifying Incident. Syrenne and Alan are joined by Ben and Phoenix from the development team and things go off the rails fast as Syrenne re-experiences the intense scope creep and change that happened on this title.
Please keep in mind that this episode contains FULL SPOILERS for all seven achievements of The Electrifying Incident. And remember folks: this isn't a 3-v-1, this is a 1-v-3 and I'm winning.
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Transcript
Introduction to Drakknek and Friends Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Drakknek and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Saren, the producer at Drakknek and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Drakknek at Drakknek and Friends.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hey
Spoiler Alert: Discussing 'The Electrifying Incident'
00:00:36
Speaker
there. Today, we're joined by Ben and Phoenix, who you may know from past episodes of the podcast, as well as members of the development team for the Electrifying Incident.
00:00:47
Speaker
How are you both doing today? Hello again. Yeah, fine. I'm doing also really good. Awesome. Bit of a difference in our energy there. A little bit.
00:00:57
Speaker
A little bit of a difference. well Is there a difference or are you just British? think this is just American and British. Uh-huh. And we are already off to the races. This is our episode ah recorded after the release of the electrifying incident to talk about the game with a heads up that there will be some level of spoilers about this game in this podcast discussion.
00:01:25
Speaker
If you would like to remain fully unspoiled, please. go ahead and stop listening. Go get the game. It is $5 at full price.
00:01:38
Speaker
It's on Steam and Itch. And you can play the whole game in 45 minutes then you can come back. You can play the game before we're done talking. Exactly. You can just leave this muted.
00:01:50
Speaker
you can just play the game while we're talking. Yeah, go, listen, scrub to the end, give us give us a play number, rate and review us, five star, five star runtime, we keep everything to an hour or less about, and then ah come back and listen to it again.
Gameplay Hints and Development Insights
00:02:07
Speaker
All right.
00:02:08
Speaker
Well, if we sort of slowly drop hints throughout the podcast, so we can sort of play along, right? Yeah, like they could play and we could like ah talk as if we are in the situation with them.
00:02:19
Speaker
So yeah that that one that you think of like, oh man, it's out of reach. How could you possibly get it? The grabber arm can reach across the gap. Whoa. just Alan saying wrong.
00:02:31
Speaker
Yes. i think I think that we're good on that. If if if you're still here... We're going to talk very openly about this game and its development. Okay, so now you might be confused because there's a button, but there's no block to put on it.
00:02:46
Speaker
But don't worry, you can go back to the previous room, pick up that crate, and put it on that button, you'll be all sorted. right, Alan. All right, Alan. Listen here, asshole. So, on a previous podcast recording, we talked. I believe it was the one with Ben.
00:03:04
Speaker
It sure was. We talked very specifically about how this game was a confined scope so that you would not feel as tempted go in and upend everything at the last minute like you did for a good snowman and a couple weeks before launch just make the second half of the game.
00:03:30
Speaker
You can really hear the desperation in Seren's voice. No, this is not desperation. This is not pleading. Pleading was the first Ben episode. Frustration is the second Ben episode.
00:03:43
Speaker
Is there any level that's the same as the the original Jams prototype? I think i think the the the third room at the very beginning of the game.
00:03:56
Speaker
Okay. And I think that's... so Third room. And and the room the room that's like...
Secret Ending and Development Hurdles
00:04:03
Speaker
Well, I guess it's rotated, but the the room where you have to drop a crate into the void the first time through, you ah that's unchanged as like a ah layout.
00:04:13
Speaker
It's not the identical room, though. Y'all, listeners, I tried so hard. the the The way that the secret... that the that this that I guess bonus spoiler, if you finished the game and came back and you noticed, why why do I only have six out of seven achievements on Steam?
00:04:31
Speaker
It's because there's a second ending and Alan timed when he was going to begin suggesting and implementing it to when Mari was at an event and I was off of work.
00:04:46
Speaker
That's a coincidence. No. and that on Tuesday, we don't work Mondays at Trackneck, Tuesday, i lock my jaw drops in horror.
00:05:01
Speaker
An hour later, i get on ah all hands, and Alan says, So Saran, how did you feel opening Slack this morning?
00:05:11
Speaker
Look, I think it was a really well-scoped addition to the game. It was a well-scoped project up front. I was so proud of that scope, and then blew it up.
00:05:24
Speaker
Didn't blow it up. Yes, you did! I started thinking about it on the Friday. ah continued to think of it. You blew up the scope before the second ending.
00:05:34
Speaker
The scope was, we don't change anything. Yeah, but that would have been a bad game. it would not have been a bad game. It was a fine game. The thing is that Alan's time is free, effectively.
00:05:47
Speaker
God damn it. And I'm an enabler of this bad behavior by implementing things. All of y'all all all of you all are at least partially responsible. This is a three versus one call, really. No, this is a one versus three and I'm winning.
00:06:06
Speaker
But no, like, so, yes, for before we started thinking about the secret ending, there'd already been, like, tweaks to the level layout. It was less of, like, a, oh, we gotta, like, redo this from scratch and more like, oh, well, here's a spot where, like, the flow, like, doesn't quite work. Or here's a spot where the difficulty curve spikes.
00:06:25
Speaker
Or here's a spot where you just need to run around and, like, go back and forth between rooms, several rooms apart, like, a bit too many times. Small tweak after small tweak, the mid game kind of diverged.
Gameplay Changes and Feedback Implementation
00:06:39
Speaker
And also, actually, the other big change was we decided to move where the reactor was. Because in the original game, the reactor is all the way to the bottom right of the level.
00:06:51
Speaker
And was like the reactor was at the bottom of screen. And that wouldn't have really like framed itself well with a 3D thing. Because like then the reactor would be like kind of occluding...
00:07:03
Speaker
like where you either play a character is, it wouldn't really able to be big and impressive. So we were like, okay, well, we should move it so the reactor is at the top of the room. But if we're going to do that, well, we might as well move it so that you pass near the reactor and then you have to go away again. And yeah, just bits and pieces.
00:07:22
Speaker
Just bits and pieces. um But they were bits and pieces that was largely on me, and I wasn't a bottleneck for anything else getting done. ah So it was fine.
00:07:33
Speaker
i think most of my my contribution to the sort of alternate ending was in fixing that kind of unintended interaction, right, with the between the door and the crate.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, it would have been like... I think like a week before we dropped to the demo. Yeah. um We're talking about like, okay, here's the bill we've got. How do we feel about it And There was just this awkward interaction with like crates indoors. I can't of remember what the behavior we started with was, but it didn't feel good.
00:08:09
Speaker
I think that like initially the crate and yourre your um claw or whatever would get stuck in the door whenever you tried to move it. like it just you couldn't You couldn't get it out. You couldn't push it through. it just would...
00:08:22
Speaker
just get you stuck and then i think I fixed that so you could push crates through doors and then that was able to be exploited throughout the entire game and so we removed it and then Alan goes oh wait but we could use that to do a secret ending and then it get then Ben re-implements it Yeah, because I think the... Like, a week before the demo dropped, we were like, okay, we should we need figure out something. And the easiest thing to do at that point was like, okay, well, if there's anything in the door, it will just stay open.
00:08:53
Speaker
And that was nice and simple because you don't need any animation changes for that. And then, yeah, we released the demo and people used that. And it was a bit more broken than I thought it would be, which is a good problem to have.
00:09:06
Speaker
But, yeah, like a bunch of people ah kind of broke the demo with that. And it's and that's interesting, but it's probably a bit too broken. It lets you really bypass entire puzzles and that doesn't feel great.
00:09:18
Speaker
um So we changed that behavior. We patched the demo. So like, no, you just can't take anything through a closed door. If the door's closed, it will just shove it together and length the box will be jammed or yeah.
00:09:33
Speaker
But yeah, it was it was certainly interesting how how people could break break puzzles and squeeze stuff through. And also also people liked finding that stuff, which interesting thing about watching people play the demo. It's that the people who did that stuff felt smart about it.
00:09:49
Speaker
Is that about as smart as I felt when I was like, we should experiment with the Godot engine within a strict six week window?
00:09:59
Speaker
Maybe. um a remember, Alan, actually, you you came to me in a DM saying, I've got this idea for an alternate ending. In a DM? I don't think I was very positive about it.
00:10:12
Speaker
Alan? You can't say it's a coincidence.
00:10:19
Speaker
yeah i I kind of dis lightly discouraged it because I felt like it wouldn't be discoverable enough, right? Well, I'm sorry, but why did you firmly be like, what does, has Saren thought about this?
00:10:34
Speaker
i I think I was the opposite. I think I encouraged it. full i did know not you would I know you it. See, it's not my fault. No, in Phoenix's defense, Phoenix is the only one here.
00:10:48
Speaker
Phoenix has not shit many commercial games before. Ben and Alan, you both know... Yeah, we know that we've we've done this in the past, but
00:11:00
Speaker
it's fine. It's about having past experience with it to do it better this time. Have we recouped, Alan? ah We have not recouped. um It's all in the long tail, right?
00:11:11
Speaker
It's fine. That's a $5 game. It'll be in bundles and all that. Maybe! Maybe!
Reflections on Game Quality and Production
00:11:20
Speaker
Six weeks was there because we were not going to recoup and it was meant to minimize losses.
00:11:30
Speaker
Uh, I think that ah six weeks was a great time to figure out if we liked Godot enough to want to make a bigger game. Yeah, we did. And then we moved on. it was It was not enough to make a game to the polished quality that we'd want to release something publicly. So it was inevitable that there was going to be more work needed after that.
00:11:54
Speaker
Now, Maybe if I hadn't been increasing scope, it would have been like three extra weeks instead of six extra weeks. But, you know, that only and don reduces it from like like three quarters of the the budget instead of the whole budget.
00:12:11
Speaker
it's not It's not the be all and end all of does this came recoup or not.
00:12:17
Speaker
Listeners, this is what I sound like when I'm mad. This is your first time hearing this. But yeah, I mean, I think it worked out great. think I think everyone on this call can agree that the reviews love the secret ending.
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, the secret ending is is is it's a very positive response. I like the content that I've seen in the community page for Steam where...
00:12:43
Speaker
I saw someone bring in like 11 crates into the end area or something like that. That was very fun to see. You need five for the secret ending.
00:12:54
Speaker
ah i think I managed like seven or eight. was like, okay, there's enough flexibility here that ah like even if people will get stuck on one puzzle, then there'll be there'll be there'll be multiple ways to get to the secret ending. So it's fine if each individual way of breaking the game is kind of hard and awkward.
00:13:13
Speaker
um But yeah, like people found much more broken ways than I was expecting, which is great. And they really love it. Yeah, you didn't even need to design it, right? like I kind of didn't design it. I made like a couple of level changes to make it possible.
00:13:31
Speaker
But then a couple of those, I'd made the change because I thought, oh, well, it's impossible if I don't make this change. And then later I'd realized, oh, no, no, there's another way of doing that.
00:13:44
Speaker
But yeah, like i mean let's let's dig into the the timeline of how quickly this this happened because I think it's it's interesting. like I think we we would have been playtesting, was probably like a ah like Monday or Tuesday, we shared a build of the full game with a slightly larger group of players just to get some final testing.
00:14:09
Speaker
Um, and they did some interesting stuff I wasn't expecting. Like somebody found a way to smuggle crates, um, into that final reactor room, which I didn't realize you could do And, um, people, there was, there was a bug where parts of the reactor were like intangible, but that meant that some people would like walk around the outside of the room and like see do that final puzzle from inside the reactor, which was interesting.
00:14:38
Speaker
And people were also just complaining that like, well, it's kind of unsatisfying that you have to... Oh, actually, yeah. So the the previous version of the puzzle actually was you' ah you're in the reactor room and you've got three crates and you have to arrange them such that two of the crates are not electrified and then you push the last crate in and that...
00:15:04
Speaker
c creates a join between the the right side of the reactor and the left side of the reactor. ah So in some ways, the the the default ending was more similar to the secret ending you have now. um And that worked, and it was a more interesting puzzle, but like it was people People just said like it was a little unsatisfying that you had to be electrified you know as to make that happen. I was like, well, sure, but like that's unavoidable.
00:15:30
Speaker
and Then I was like, wait, that's not unavoidable. or Or rather, actually, yeah, so I was like, oh, like it's it's ah unavoidable that you're getting electrocuted during the ending, but we could just simplify it so that in the main ending, you are just like powering the electricity on with like the crate to your body and you're a direct part of the circuit.
00:15:55
Speaker
And then, oh, but you could have the the old normal ending as a secret ending if you get a couple of extra crates into the room. That's kind of interesting. You'd still be like getting electrocuted, but like maybe it would be like indirect. Maybe that would feel interesting.
00:16:09
Speaker
I think that's why I wasn't convinced. yeah like actually like it like Yeah. If you're or if you're still like getting shocked, it feels less like... I don't know. The the difference between the electricity going straight through you and beside you is feels not as impactful.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah. So I sent that DM to Ben at that stage. one Well, here's an idea. like i'm not i'm not telling Seren about this. Here's an idea. This is what we could do. i don't know But then i kept thinking about it over the weekend and there was discussion in the...
00:16:45
Speaker
in the testing space about it. And somebody pointed out that like, oh, if you had a door that closed when the power came on rather than opened when the power came on, then you could have the power cut off, ah like the door closes touches the grabber arm, that makes the grabber arm retract, and then you could make make it so that the monster isn't getting electrocuted. I'm like, oh, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to make a special door type that ah closes when the power comes on. That would just be awkward. but
00:17:22
Speaker
But maybe there is a way of just moving off the button at the right time. Hmm. And then it all worked out. And that was only possible because like when in that version of the demo, which was completely broken, where you could carry crates through doors, but you could also just have an entire grabber arm coming through the door. And if the grabber arm was there, the door wouldn't close.
00:17:44
Speaker
And that was a bit too broken. So we went through various versions of that. And we're like, okay, well, no, let's make it so the grabber arm's in the door, the door close and retract the grabber arm. But if you're next to the crate, then you can carry it through as like a one-time short distance thing.
00:18:02
Speaker
Just kind of looks visually right, I think. Yeah. um So it's like the perfect perfect set of conditions for this epiphany in my brain of like, oh, no, we actually already have it set up so that this is possible. We just need to change the level geometry.
00:18:17
Speaker
ah So I came in on Tuesday morning, like, I've had it <unk>ve had a brainwave. This is what we need to do. And by the time Seren was awake, it was already implemented.
00:18:31
Speaker
So really, Seren, you should get up earlier if you want to stop. up the sight You're so right. yeah Why aren't I tie up at three and four in the morning? Why aren't I working all hours?
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:48
Speaker
I think I have one sort of frustration still with the game, which is totally, doesn't matter at all because it doesn't affect anything. It's just, so I spent ages trying to get the grabber arm to look right.
Visual Constraints and Post-Release Reflections
00:19:04
Speaker
I think it looks decent now, but without getting too technical, like if the grabber arm goes up or down too much, it just looks really broken. Obviously it's a 2D game, so we can largely avoid that.
00:19:16
Speaker
But at some point I want to try to send the code to someone who's more intelligent and say like, how do I get this to look and I don't know if it's my vector maths or just like something to do with the how it's set up in the engine or...
00:19:31
Speaker
Like when the grapple like swings wildly to one side or the other while you're turning? or No, so it's vertical difference. The grabber arm is just a bunch of... It's one model that has three d bones, which is kind of how all characters are animated.
00:19:50
Speaker
deforms the 3D geometry. But if the grabber arm moves up or down too much, like vertically, then all the bones do weird things. I don't understand what's going on.
00:20:02
Speaker
That's bizarre. Yeah. And we were we were in this like six-week schedule and I was like trying not to waste time, but I of just got pushed back and the frustration's still there.
00:20:17
Speaker
I think this is the same level of, um oh man, this really sucks about this game. I felt after we shipped a good snowman, was like, you don't leave footprints in the snow. The worst thing about this game that we just released is you don't leave footprints in the snow, ah which ah like sure, like fair, but also if that's the worst thing, like if that's your biggest regret about the game, then you're doing great.
00:20:46
Speaker
You need to add footprints to Snowman. No.
00:20:53
Speaker
i i mean, I think it'd it look really nice. We updated the credits to a good Snowman and added localization, and that took twice as long as we thought it would.
00:21:05
Speaker
We're not adding footprints to Snowman. Can we add footprints to the electrifying incident? No. We will not be doing that.
00:21:17
Speaker
We will also not be adding footprints to the next game. Hey, you don't know what, like, you know. Yes, I do.
00:21:28
Speaker
Seems like a challenge to sneak in footprints. the I'm making a note right now. Listeners. Listeners.
00:21:40
Speaker
I think with the with the grapple, the wonkiness that I added to the grapple was i was trying to figure out how to make it look ah electrified. oh yeah.
00:21:51
Speaker
And so I needed the the particle effect for elect like stuff that looks electrified so be put on the grapple. But the grapple changes size. And so my lazy solution was to put the same particle effect on every single bone joint And so when it's only one joint long, you have like eight different electrifying particles stacked on top of each other in the exact same spot.
00:22:18
Speaker
Nice. Which no one has pointed out. i was waiting for someone to go, that looks odd, but no one has said it, so.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, never noticed. It's all coming out now. All the crimes. All the crimes. We're going to get refunds from people over this. They'll be like, there's eight times as much electricity on the grab-romb as there should be.
00:22:48
Speaker
Saren, what's your biggest ah regret about the game that's about the end product and not the process?
00:22:56
Speaker
The journey that we, the friends were the journey along the way. Anyways.
00:23:05
Speaker
Here, here's my biggest regret. How come the the solution video that we recorded at the beginning of development doesn't get me through the final game? Hey, I made more recent solution videos towards the end.
00:23:19
Speaker
ah think every level change we made was a noticeable improvement. Let's talk about the ending cutscene. With ah the monster in the bed?
00:23:31
Speaker
yes i like I like that a lot. I'm very happy with that. I'm very happy how that came out. i another I guess another thing, I am sad that the monster doesn't have bandages on its head or some kind of thing like that.
00:23:44
Speaker
You can't be keeping the Skokree conversation going, it's bad for my blood pressure. hush It just looks like the monster is chilling out in a bed rather than ah hurt at all.
00:24:00
Speaker
But I do really like it. Well, monsters heal quickly. Monsters do heal quickly. Yeah, they don't even mind being electrocuted for like six hours while they get extracted safely.
Scope Creep and Production Philosophy
00:24:13
Speaker
Also, going back to the scope creep conversation for a second.
00:24:18
Speaker
Don't think I didn't notice that the only time i pro proposed a scope creep feature, it's the one that didn't make it in What was that? a counter at the end end to let you know how many times you got electrocuted.
00:24:32
Speaker
Gosh, I do not even remember that suggestion. But that would have been so good. if if you if you think you've got a good idea and we we didn't do it, you should just keep repeating it until we do it.
00:24:45
Speaker
No. like you know when i You know when I recommended that? Too early. The first week of development when it was time to talk about any changes that we wanted to implement from the original game.
00:24:58
Speaker
no You know, the same time that we decided on the ending cutscene. Actually, I think... What you need to do is just DM me or Phoenix. Say, hey, we've got this thing that needs go on.
00:25:09
Speaker
No, I do actually think this is an interesting divergence of production philosophy between the two of us, which is that my approach to production is very short-term focused.
00:25:25
Speaker
I mostly care about... this is the thing we've got right now. If we only have one more week's worth of work, what is the single most important thing to change about this?
00:25:37
Speaker
And so when, when we're in like the first week of development, I can't even think about like, oh yeah, we should have a count of how many times have you got electrocuted because there's so many more bigger things on my mind.
00:25:50
Speaker
um And so the only time I'll even allow myself to think about, yeah, a counter would be nice, is like once we're right at the end. And before that, it's like and flooded out. Yeah, whereas I was able to sit at the beginning and picture the end product based on the first early render and the puzzle script game.
00:26:10
Speaker
And I was like, okay, that's what the game's going to be. And that is what we made originally. And I was like, all right, what's ah what's a cute thing that is not actually going to balloon the scope?
00:26:22
Speaker
Oh, that that'll be easy. We can just keep a variable hidden and then reveal it at the end. And, Sorrent, did you add that to the to-do list? No, because everyone just kind of eared at me when I said it.
00:26:36
Speaker
And so I said, okay, people don't want to do that. No worries. I add stuff to the to-do list that people go eared about all the time. Yes, and I don't like that. So I'm not going to do it myself.
00:26:50
Speaker
I'm not going to be a hypocrite about production. i I think the solution here is that you should, Surin, you should start removing Alan's suggestions and replacing it with your own, is what I'm hearing. if I start removing Alan's suggestions that he's going to get mad at me and I don't need that. No, no, no.
00:27:07
Speaker
Either I will notice, and then that's a data point that I cared about that thing, or I won't notice, and that's a data point that I didn't really care about.
00:27:19
Speaker
okay Anyways, like I said, the divergence of how Alan and I can imagine a project. I can sit at the beginning of development and immediately think about the final product.
00:27:32
Speaker
And then I'm like, okay, I know what the goal is. So my thought process is creating the easy, crunch-free stress way to get from here to there in the time and budget that we have.
00:27:44
Speaker
And Alan revisits everything every week. i like I can picture the end product. I just, ah I want to know how I'm getting there. And when I'm getting there, I want to focus on the the stuff that's most important.
00:28:03
Speaker
You know, we have phrases for people like you. think you should list them. No.
00:28:13
Speaker
No, they ah they are some mental health diagnoses.
00:28:21
Speaker
Anyways, ah we we call we call them ADHD developers. Regardless. um What else do we want to talk about from this game's development that is maybe a little more positive for all four of us?
00:28:35
Speaker
ten
00:28:44
Speaker
We like it, though. Loaded silence. Loaded silence. Melody, keep that silence in. Melody, I want you... i want No, Melody, here's what i want you to do. one keep this part in.
00:28:57
Speaker
Two, double that silence. Okay.
00:29:01
Speaker
50% of the podcast is silence. I want you, if this were a video podcast, I would play with that format so much just for that very loaded silence.
00:29:15
Speaker
Anyways, wow. Tell me how you all really feel. You're all like, well, nothing we did makes Seren happy.
00:29:23
Speaker
I have such an... I mean, was more than a few weeks ago, I can't really remember the development. Yeah, exactly. like It's we kind of ages ago. We shipped this game like almost two weeks ago, you know?
00:29:34
Speaker
You know, when i when I get recommendations from former employers, when I was in school, you know what the sentence was? A joy to work with. A joy to be around, a pleasure to have in class. I was that person.
00:29:49
Speaker
What happened? How am I the villain
Team Dynamics and Culture
00:29:52
Speaker
here? You you worked with too many indie developers. How am I the villain? You're not the villain. There's no villains here.
00:30:00
Speaker
We're all on the same side, on the side of quality. Then how come when I said, there anything that all four of us were happy with, everyone went deeply silent?
00:30:12
Speaker
Well, it's really because we all have kind of intricate, detailed responses in our own nuanced ways that we have formulating. All right, you're volunteering. so, I mean, ah the lightning electricity looks neat. Yeah, Adam did a good job. Anything else?
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say, like, the visuals of the game, yeah, came together. Yeah, Adam was wonderful at this job. ah Ben, do you have anything that's not about the graphics? Yeah.
00:30:44
Speaker
oh I mean, the input's fine. It doesn't get in the way. the input doesn't get in the way. No, no. I mean, like, you're, like, because you you worked on this, and, like, I've definitely seen people comment on this, how, like, it's got the same responsive feeling that a monster's expedition does, where um you can tap inputs really quickly, and...
00:31:08
Speaker
the character will just blend and move as fast as it needs to. And like, yeah, that's easy to like not think about too much, but it's not as easy to implement that as it, but as you might think.
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah. i was, I was just reaching for something that I did that I could compliment. And I agree that you should be complimented on that. it's It's really good. i've i've the The people that I've seen play the game or whatever, like that's almost always the the thing that they go to. is It's very fun to spam directions on the character.
00:31:42
Speaker
I'm not so sure about the diagonal input that we have. It sort of like alternates when you hold it, when you hold like up and right, you know, like, don't know. It feels okay on keyboard.
00:31:54
Speaker
And there's also a thing where you can you send the grabber arm out when there's nothing in front of you and then tap a direction and the grabber arm will like swing wildly um you without collision, which is fine. It's like, ah like it it looks bad, but also it's the least important thing and nobody cares.
00:32:14
Speaker
It's also a bit silly. i I like swinging it at its full length, left or right, and seeing it go through the entire dayar area. I think the grabber, I just kind of had to... At some point, you just have to say, like, yeah, that's good enough.
00:32:32
Speaker
Like the scope of the game? I'm happy enough with how it turned out, yeah. It's fine, right? i think It looks good when it's, like, turning corners, maybe.
00:32:43
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think one thing that's like tough when you're asking, like, oh, what do you like about the game? Is that there was a lot that was really good about the game three weeks into development.
00:32:53
Speaker
Yes. And that was actually six months ago because we worked on it for six weeks and then put it on hold and then came back to it to ship it. And so, like, that's not even part of our brain anymore.
00:33:05
Speaker
What is happening with you? is this what Is this what Subway Surfers does to someone? Look, ah as of the release of this podcast, we are announcing our next game in one week.
00:33:20
Speaker
We've been really excited about the making that game for six months. Yes. Like, this this this small thing. i can remember development stories from 12 years ago down to lines of code.
00:33:35
Speaker
What's going on?
00:33:38
Speaker
One thing I did really like, actually, was the feeling of the... The development team, right? We had like everyone checking in every day on the Slack.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah. I'm glad that everyone had a good culture. Especially because like this is my first time being in a a commercial project.
00:34:02
Speaker
like I wasn't sure whether this is like out of the ordinary or meeting up. um It was quite nice. i don't know. You've recorded a podcast with Phoenix before, right?
00:34:12
Speaker
Yep. I don't know how much you touched on Phoenix's experience versus sort of expectation. Yeah. Was that the whole podcast? A lot of it. Ben, why don't you listen to the podcast?
00:34:28
Speaker
We pour our heart and soul into it. ah
00:34:34
Speaker
You know what? don't remember the last time I listened to a podcast. so Maybe it's just... <unk>s There's a few that I like that's just sort of been music recently. A few that you like.
00:34:49
Speaker
Is this one of them? you You know the the episode format. You've now been on two of them.
00:34:57
Speaker
I certainly like being on the podcast. No, but being on a podcast and listening to a podcast are two very different experiences. Yeah. ah Also... I listened to the first episode.
00:35:10
Speaker
Cool. and Also, ah for for the benefit of folks that um you know are obviously not behind the scenes, ah Ben and Phoenix's episodes came out two weeks apart and they were recorded three months apart.
00:35:30
Speaker
um Ben was recording number 12 and Phoenix was recording number 17. Cool. Behind the scenes trivia for y'all.
00:35:42
Speaker
ah All right. i am I think for me, I'm kind of like thinking about development outside of work is not too exciting.
00:35:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. No, I agree. I wouldn't listen to this thing either.
00:35:58
Speaker
I know what happens on this podcast because I'm in every episode. That's how I know. You're right that this is what work is. However, yeah you should do it because it's my work. It's not yours.
00:36:11
Speaker
you can You can listen to the episodes that aren't with Draconeck and Friends ah contractors and staff. True. I will at some point. um Like I said, I listened to one of them and it was it was good.
00:36:23
Speaker
We have some great episodes. ah Alan, now that we're fully and totally derailed, if you had to recommend one episode of the podcast that is not with a developer, one of our developers.
00:36:36
Speaker
ah Episode 12 with... Oh, that was 14 publicly. Episode 12 publicly was rearranging. Yeah, we we like they get rearranged a lot.
00:36:50
Speaker
um i think I think the episode with Harry was a lot of was going to say, episode 8 with Harry is like possibly still the greatest episode on this feed. Is that Sokobond?
00:37:02
Speaker
ah Yeah, that that's about Sokobond. Alan, the one that we recorded yesterday, that'll be out in like June. Yeah, that was fun too. i think I think that's that's up there. I think that this is not me saying if I didn't name this that I don't didn't like it. I've liked all of the episodes, but like ones that have a very special energy to them. This one has a special energy, but it's not an energy that I'm happy about.
00:37:28
Speaker
This one like... I think you brought that energy to the recording, though. You know what? We could all just blame Phoenix because he would have been recording on Shuster.
00:37:40
Speaker
No! Phoenix is not our fault! Protect protects the new people who are new to the industry, Ben. Why you trying to throw the rookies under the bus? Phoenix knows I'm joking. I think that's a good strategy. Maybe.
00:37:57
Speaker
That's ah that a strong maybe at the end of that. oh
00:38:03
Speaker
Such a role model. um So if you listen to this podcast and do not follow Draconeck on Blue Sky, go look up when this podcast comes out because we post a clip every week and i by God, do I not know what the clip for this episode is going to be.
00:38:24
Speaker
I can't. We should probably post a clip that dozens imply that we hate each other. that where's that? I think it just it's Friday afternoon energy, right? Yeah, this Friday afternoon for US, s Friday evening for UK. The knives are out.
00:38:45
Speaker
i I will tell you that my spouse has already sent me a message saying, was preparing food and heard, listen here, asshole. Yeah. i do I do think this that was, I think, the start of the downfall for the podcast. You know, that was that was really where we started building up resentment and really this is that one this is not where I've been building up resentment.
00:39:10
Speaker
This is where I'm unleashing seven months of resentment. To be fair, you you do say that a lot at work, Siren. Yes, this is exactly how I behave at work when I'm not when i'm not making content to be consumed and laughed at.
00:39:30
Speaker
I'm curious, Siren, how strongly would you feel um if we had just made the level design changes and not snuck that ah secret ending in two weeks before release?
00:39:43
Speaker
ah the The honest answer is i would have been frustrated but not angry. And I don't get any bonus points for scoping the bonus ending smartly such that it could be stuck in at the end.
00:39:59
Speaker
This is the bonus points. This is representative of the bonus points.
00:40:06
Speaker
We have a great working relationship, don't worry.
00:40:10
Speaker
Five years and counting. Hey, we've we've shipped a lot of games over that time and we've not yet killed each other. ah Some of those... don't think I've been frustrated to the extent of No, no, that's not true.
00:40:31
Speaker
No, no
00:40:36
Speaker
ah i So we've we've already established that Ben and i have just lost all of our long-term memory. Yes. What was your experience of shipping Monsters Expedition with us?
00:40:49
Speaker
Oh,
00:40:52
Speaker
because that is a complete blank in my mind okay um yeah so my my experience of shipping monsters sure let's just let's just turn this back into the pilot episode again ah let's go all the way back um Yeah, so that was that was fascinating. That was a much more documented and produced development than anything that Alan's ever responded to successfully since, um in large part because we had immovable deadlines.
00:41:27
Speaker
it was It was stressful, but everyone really came together. There was not much scope creep at the end because, like I said, there was immovable deadlines. It really was we managed to lock that game outside of some unintended solutions.
00:41:43
Speaker
two months before that game shipped and then everything in that back two months uh adam was preparing marketing materials and everyone else on the team was scrambling on optimizations How do we get this thing running at 30 frames per second on the worst iPhone?
00:42:02
Speaker
How do we get this thing running at 30 frames per second on the worst Apple TV? How do we ah render the fog in such a way that it doesn't take the frame rate on the low end devices? and the answer was we fake it.
00:42:13
Speaker
um We hired someone in to come in and help take care of the thermals because the phones were getting too hot. Like that was a lot of a monster expedition. And it was a lot of everyone is stressed, but every there was a very decided end point and everyone knew that the game was done and that everything else was just about hitting a target frame rate.
00:42:38
Speaker
And that was a very different perspective. Also, Alan, like... Candidly, I think that you were just burned out enough on designing for that game. that that's that That is a big part of why you did not even, I don't even think you felt tempted at the time to reopen the scope creep conversation, especially because like the open world of that thing is just like such a house of cards that like you got it to ap point you were satisfied.
00:43:04
Speaker
All of that energy was going into like squashing the unintended solutions. I do think you were probably distracted enough with like all the other more important stuff that you wouldn't have seen how much I was like editing levels towards the the final moments.
00:43:22
Speaker
We also released like a an update, right? Oh, land that was That was planned. that was like We knew that was going to happen before we shipped. um Right. So there was there was that that Alan could like be like, OK, well, if if we need to make any significant changes, we'll do so.
00:43:39
Speaker
And then um there was also, frankly, a lot of Alan and I taking meetings, like frantic meetings about making sure that we're still hitting timeline.
00:43:51
Speaker
It was a normal game development experience. Let me say that was i I miss it. God, I miss it. Bring her back. ah Absolutely not.
00:44:02
Speaker
that was This is why you always sell funds. That is what game development is like. i am Again, I'm so used to that. That is like such a, we have an immovable deadline either because of an external partner that is in control of funding or our internal funding is going to run out.
00:44:21
Speaker
We are 95% satisfied with the game, but oh my god, how are we going to ship this? that is like That is my deepest comfort zone.
00:44:32
Speaker
This is the point a little bit ago, but I'm curious on how Godot is going to be with that last two months in terms of optimization and...
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah, great question. Yeah, we didn't need really need to worry about that. for i mean the the The way that we set up things in Electrifying Incident, I wouldn't say is maybe the best, most efficient way,
00:45:01
Speaker
but It was a functional way. It seems like it's fine. Yeah, it's... Alan and I were talking about the different... Sometimes it tries to back... Like, it doesn't try backup rendering methods on 4.3, but it does on 4.4, and ah electrifying is in 4.3. So, like...
00:45:21
Speaker
so like That's engine version 4.3, not aspect ratio 4 by 3. Yeah, I don't know. It seems fine. the be The other thing is like, yes, Unity unity comes with a lot of um low-level bloat, but it also comes with multi-platform exports natively.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah. I think like thinking about monsters, the scope is totally different as well. right oh We have like a variety of different island types with each of their own models and like all these different special models all died around. ray Yes, it's it's there's there's a lot going on in Monster's Expedition. One, compared to Electrifying Incident, but two, even just like under the hood, there's there's a lot going on.
00:46:10
Speaker
um Yeah, and there's like for Electrifying Incident, just nearly everything is just under one or two shaders that are just palette textures yes that might or might not have electricity on them.
00:46:21
Speaker
And like, there's hardly anything that's super custom about that. Yes. It's kind of, that was very similar to how it worked on Monsters, right? I think Adam's very good at providing a decent solution. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:36
Speaker
oh Just from the off. like Didn't have to ask him to do anything special. just knows how to make games. The other thing about monsters is through a series of weird circumstances, I had somewhat like...
00:46:57
Speaker
isolated, like siloed conversations with individual team members about like issues that were being shielded from the rest of the team. Like, ah Pip and fretting about ratings how ratings boards would perceive certain ah trivia, certain like um object descriptions, and then Mike and i going through and doing the... um implementation of the localizations and adam and i were doing a lot of like platform art assets so there's a lot but so some of those were like let's not stress everyone out by making them see a problem that doesn't involve them
00:47:44
Speaker
One thing I don't remember is, so in in Monsters, there's there's these expedition exhibitions. You go around and you get a little description and you see a thing on a little museum plinth.
00:47:57
Speaker
There's a whole load of leech-related technology. I don't know where that came from. That's old pimp. You have to wonder about Pip's mental state. That leech punchline, like every every single one, it you feel like it's the punchline, and then the next one, you're like, no, this is the punchline. That's Pip. That escalating comedy was... ah God, i i loved i love that bit. There's so many bits.
00:48:25
Speaker
Um... there were There were some things where I'm like, this is of this is going to be a very easy, we need to remove the reference to LSD that is not actually improving the joke.
00:48:38
Speaker
Because that's going to dramatically change our age ratings.
00:48:44
Speaker
I have to say that I think my favorite exhibit probably is just a visual gag. But it's the like the sound it makes. The dancing reverse mermaid. Yes.
00:48:56
Speaker
Just the little flop flaps. good It's a good monster. It's it's a it's it's good. because I also just like it because it's a monster in a monsters museum.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah. It's just a different kind of monster. Yeah, i don't I don't know. I have favorite exhibits. We have wandered so dramatically off topic that we're just talking about our favorite exhibits from a game that was shipped five years ago. you go to our merch store, you can buy some of those exhibits on a t-shirt.
00:49:26
Speaker
ah Yes, you can. Yes, you can. What does that mean? might be adjusting those. Maybe hold off a week.
00:49:37
Speaker
ah Okay. Merch improvements. Merch improvements. So get the limited edition merch that's about to disappear. yeah If you're a man. When you're listening to this podcast, just wait a week from when you're listening to it and then purchase it. Yeah.
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah. if you have, left let's say if you have a femme body, maybe don't. Oh, I see. That's a positive improvement then. Yeah.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah. All right. all right going to wrap it up here because I need to go. i don't drink, but I need to go recover my sanity.
00:50:16
Speaker
But before we wrap, talk if you're just rejoining us, having completed the game, congratulations. ah Thank you for saving the reactor. any cost. We hope the hints helped. And condolences about your monster being electrocuted.
00:50:31
Speaker
We're bit cryptic, the hints, but... yeah yeah there There isn't a third salute or like a secret, by the way, that we're secretly keeping from you that you might want to go back and dawdle around with a little bit.
00:50:43
Speaker
i Maybe a third or fourth layer to this game that you can look at. You're correct. There is not. There's not. All right. Any other layers? Thanks, everyone, for jumping in and...
00:50:57
Speaker
and i I don't know why I thought I would have even one ally on this call. Man. Man.
00:51:08
Speaker
There's allies and there's allies. we all We all love and support you. Uh-huh. As we are making certain decisions in allies. And do those certain decisions support me?
00:51:22
Speaker
Sometimes. Thank you for listening to the Drack Naked Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis.
00:51:34
Speaker
Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.............
00:52:03
Speaker
you