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Episode 31: Corey Martin (Bonfire Peaks, Tire Boy)
230 Plays11 days ago
In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Corey Martin the developer behind Bonfire Peaks. Topics include the development of Bonfire Peaks and its DLC sequel, Bonfire Peaks Lost Memories, his other work on games like Tire Boy, and puzzles in non-puzzle games.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guests
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Drakknack and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Saran, the producer at Drakknack and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Drakknack at Drakknack and Friends.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello. Today, we're joined by Corey Martin, who you may know from his work on games like Bonfire Peaks, as well as Hiding Spot, Pipe Push Paradise, Vertigo, and the recently announced Tire Boy.
00:00:49
Speaker
How are you doing today? I'm great. Thanks for having me That's a long list of games. Yeah. Getting longer by the moment.
Transition from Web to Game Development
00:00:58
Speaker
and So I think my first question is, how did you get into making games?
00:01:05
Speaker
So I i was a a web developer for a long time before ah started making games. And I think I just wrote games off as a like, oh, you have to be way smarter than I am to be able to make games.
00:01:20
Speaker
um And then game engines just started becoming accessible enough that that people like me could make games. and And then I just made it my number one priority to learn how it's done and then like not ever have to make a website ever again.
00:01:35
Speaker
Well, that part didn't pan out. I still make websites every now and You don't have to. Exactly. Exactly. We had you make one for Bonfire Peaks, and now I feel bad about that. No, I that mean, I've made more sense. Making my own websites is like, well, that's, yeah. let's Less soul-destroying.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, then going over revisions with clients that whose taste you may or may not align with. I think we've briefly touched on the podcast. I also with a i am a former web developer.
00:02:07
Speaker
That's no way to live. no Now instead you get revisions like Seren telling you that ah no the PS5 logo needs to be this big and it needs to be right here.
00:02:19
Speaker
i'm so I'm only grateful for those. i like your You know those things so that I don't have to. That's true. um I'm sure we'll get into you know those things so I don't have to later on this episode.
00:02:34
Speaker
So how'd you, from there, how'd you get into puzzle design?
Interest in Puzzle Games and Misconceptions
00:02:40
Speaker
So I was i was like at a point with games where I was getting really drawn towards um less performance-based, less twitchy, input-based, timing-based games, and like really wanting to explore things that are worked at a slower pace. And then discovered Alan's games, discovered you know all of Stephen LaBelle's work,
00:03:07
Speaker
and And just just yeah fell in love with with definitely those those two catalogs. of a Good Snowman had ah had a big impact on me, and that was one of the one of the first games where I was like, oh, maybe I could try to make something...
00:03:23
Speaker
kind shaped similarly to this kind of game design and structure. It's interesting because you said with like games in general, like your initial instinct was like, oh yeah, you need to be really smart to make that that those.
00:03:35
Speaker
And then you went on to make the kind of games that people go, who people who make games look at and go, well, well I'm not smart enough to make those. It's funny. Yeah, I think i think that's that's like like part of a misconception about these kinds of games is that they come out fully formed, though, as though like you know we didn't just just ah come up with with these games without like endless iteration and revisions and throwing stuff away and whatever. So it's like it's really closer to the experience of playing one of these games than some...
00:04:11
Speaker
yeah some I don't know where that train of thought was going, but hopefully it made sense. um it's It's funny because some listeners to this podcast, ah including our editor Melanie, shout out to Melanie, have trouble specifically with games like Bonfire Peaks even just playing them because they don't feel smart enough.
Difficulty in Puzzle Games vs. Action Games
00:04:33
Speaker
a Yeah, I think that's that's a real hurdle ah to get past this is the idea that so your the intended experience is that you ah struggle somewhat, at least, and that you get stumped and stuck and ah walk away from a puzzle because you're like, okay, I'm not getting anywhere with this I'm going to go check out another one.
00:04:54
Speaker
yeah um So that is the intended experience. But to some people, that just feels bad. it Like, no, if I'm not breezing through at a reasonably flowy pace then exactly i'm bad at this game if this game is presenting friction then i'm just not smart right um no the the exact exchange i think about is quote from melanie bonfire peaks is the only dracnec game i struggled to get into because of the introduction of the z-axis was just too much for me response doesn't patrick's pair of bucks have a z-axis
00:05:30
Speaker
ah Follow up. Patrick's Parabox has a W axis. it Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it also just depends on how your your brain's wired, you know, like um someone might find Patrick's Parabox overwhelming and others like, ah yeah, like I think it's it's really surprising how accessible that game is considering how mind bending the ah rules are.
00:05:55
Speaker
i also I also think there's like a certain type of difficulty that um people are fine like dying over and over again in Dark Souls, but they're not fine failing to solve a puzzle.
00:06:12
Speaker
ah like those Those experiences hit differently in a way that's kind of unintuitive. Well, I think it's also like it's it's more vulnerable to feel like your intellect is failing than your thumbs, you know? Yeah.
00:06:29
Speaker
A lot of people, when they um when they struggle with Souls games, ah when they fail three times, ah the fourth attempt, they do what failed the first three times because they think it was just an input issue or a reaction speed issue and not a, you should rethink this issue.
00:06:48
Speaker
Whereas a puzzle game will very clearly... lett ah just like lay bare no you you really the strategy you thought would work clearly will not work who um This was not an input issue.
00:07:05
Speaker
there is There are no timing in a lot of these games, including the ones that we're talking about here. ah but There's not like a timing component. It's not that you mistimed something.
00:07:17
Speaker
You just need to rethink your approach. Right. Right. And and they it can be tempting to still continue barking up the wrong tree sometimes. Yes. know. Yeah.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yes, having watched plenty of people playtest puzzle games, it's certainly not a genre that prevents people from trying the same thing over and over again without questioning why they're doing it. but yes i that that's That's something that like when I'm sitting with someone and like they've spent 15 minutes on, for example, ah room in the electrifying incident, and I'm like...
Hint Systems and Game Design
00:07:58
Speaker
do you want a hint they're like sure give me a hint i'll like the hint is you're thinking about it wrong you gotta you should leave the room come back and try and wipe your brain from what you were just doing because i don't know how you got on that path yeah and this comes back to the thing too of like somebody could be stuck for 20 minutes and be like no i don't want to hint i'm really enjoying myself and someone could be stuck for 10 seconds and be like this is miserable so yeah it's it's tough to tailor a one-size-fits-all kind of game for those.
00:08:31
Speaker
um Yeah, I mean, for Monsters Expedition, when we added the hint system, the... of The default hint settings are different per platform, where if you're on mobile, we are going to assume that you are statistically less likely to open the pause menu and more likely to and like search the settings and more likely to want a hint.
00:08:59
Speaker
And so we so we have all that UI turned on by default. Yeah. So in that case, I actually think we should have just enabled it by default everywhere. Yeah, you, at the time, you felt pretty strongly that the PC and console audience might feel patronized.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. um But part self was just wrong. Yeah. I will say I've had to explain to people that there is a hint system because it turns out that just because you're not unmovable. That's part of it. It's like the the the benefit of exposing this feature to some people who will never in their million leot years find out about it on their own outweighs the downside of some people don't want to use hints and don't want to think about hints.
00:09:48
Speaker
So, but did it, did it, uh, like, does it offer a hint prompt or does it give the full hint on? Oh no. Like the enabled experience is just, it shows a prompt and it tells you, you can press this button to see. Yeah. It shows a light bulb button on, in the HUD and you can press the light bulb and it shows you a silhouette of what a completed state of the Island looks like, not how to get there.
00:10:14
Speaker
Right. ah Because for some for some people, ah they are like, it's very clear watching some people play that game.
00:10:25
Speaker
They will kind of mess around with like pushing logs around and hope to stumble into the goal without like knowing exactly how they are moving up forward.
00:10:39
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, for for sure. And it also can be a way to give your brain a break to just like, well, I'm actually, I'm just going to brute force this for a while just to like see if there's some, um you know, configuration that unlocks something in my imagination.
00:10:59
Speaker
ah No, I feel, know, the settings defaults aside, I feel good about the hit system in that. Yeah, that makes perfect sense for that game. It's probably just a good example of that.
00:11:14
Speaker
um You should should be thoughtful about how your hint system applies to the particular game.
Difficulty Levels in Bonfire Peaks
00:11:20
Speaker
So talking about hint systems, let's talk about Bonfire Peaks. and Okay. This is a very difficult game.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah. Was the difficulty always the goal? No. I think i if I was making it again now, it would... i would probably err on the side of trying to make it a gent gentler in the in the early puzzles.
00:11:44
Speaker
I do think difficulty is not a selling point for me for games. It's like ah it's more like a it's an ask from the player. like The more difficult your game is it it better be that much more interesting to like reward the time I'm going to spend trying to do this thing.
00:12:03
Speaker
but But yeah, i do I do think it could maybe be slightly less alienating to new players if if it were gentler in the early puzzles. But I also don't think the difficulty is artificial in any way, or you know we didn't throw in red herrings or anything to make puzzles more difficult.
00:12:21
Speaker
um So it would be just a question of like, OK, what are some some gentler ways we can teach some of these earlier things without cheapening those lessons?
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is kind of a can of worms, but... Holes. I actually think that the biggest thing you could do to improve Bonfire Peaks' is approachability would be to make it a different game. And by that, I mean to take some of the...
00:12:55
Speaker
systems that are there that are that leads to really unintuitive consequences and make different design decisions about some edge cases um or to to like just design a version of bonsai peaks where you can't rotate while holding a crate or something and like push it in a slightly different design direction the that wouldn't lend itself to the kind of puzzles that um can sometimes focus on like situations where the end result is not particularly intuitive. and like Mostly we design puzzles so that that's not the focus of the level, but I think that there's a lot of levels where you can do weird things and get surprised by the result.
00:13:41
Speaker
And um it's not obvious whether that's part of the solution or whether you need to do something completely different. Mm-hmm. like I think i think the the possibility space of the mechanics is inherently intimidating.
00:13:57
Speaker
Right. Right. And also thematically, sometimes like so one thing I was surprised by is how ah the the spike puzzles um just that, you know, you if you take there's a pressure plate and if you take something off of that pressure plate, have some spikes come out of the floor or the walls.
00:14:18
Speaker
And and regardless of what the puzzle was, they immediately felt intimidating because they're like, you know violent or their ah treacherous um so so that was something that i've i noticed like people had an immediate oh this is ah going to be a hard puzzle just because of the vibe of the spikes which is like was a hurdle i didn't i didn't see coming when we were designing And subsequently in the DLC, I think there are some times we moved spike levels further back just in response to that knee-jerk reaction to them.
00:14:56
Speaker
therere Yeah, and that's that's definitely part of it. I think that one thing that... I think about with Bonfire Peaks, the the base game specifically, is that I think the DLC actually really successfully avoids this, but the base game has so many ideas about how to use its mechanics that people will, I think more often than other puzzle games in this space, players will forget the lessons that they've already learned.
00:15:32
Speaker
Oh, that's yeah. Yeah. funny mean it's And especially it's a hurdle with all these types of games that if you take some time away to Oh, yeah. um Yeah, it can be hard to to to recall all those like my like lessons. This game is also ah really big and really long.
00:15:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. um like hundreds of puzzles. Hundreds of puzzles. I should say for anybody who hasn't played and played it ah and that we're actively scaring away right now. Amazing puzzles.
00:16:05
Speaker
the The main path of the game I think is relatively is relatively like approachable and stuff but then there's all kinds of optional puzzles that yeah get a little get a lot harder. so You can definitely avoid those and hit the credits of the game that was Yes, sorry. Alan and i have had this on the schedule of podcasts we wanted to record for almost an entire year now, maybe close to a full year.
00:16:36
Speaker
Before we started the podcast, we recorded a single episode, but we held back because we wanted to talk about the totality of it and wait until DLC 3 came out, 2 and 3.
00:16:47
Speaker
And so and now that it has, like, my brain is just in full, like, let's do a retrospective. And yes, no, you're right. there There are going to be people who have not played this game.
00:16:58
Speaker
um Beautiful voxel game. ah Great puzzles. Everyone should go buy it. And, like, if you're listening to this podcast and you haven't played Bonfire Peaks yet, like, maybe you're, like, a little intimidated by it, but if you're listening to this podcast, you will have a good time.
00:17:19
Speaker
Oh, yes. i'll Go to itch.io, go to name your price, add a couple zeros, and then buy it. And all proceeds go to us.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yes, all proceeds go to us. ah Now, um how other than thematically, how did you stumble upon the idea of using these mechanics after Hiding Spot and Pipe Push Paradise? Yeah, so so um this was shortly after I i made the this game Hiding Spot, which was about... to um making little forts with your furniture and isolating yourself. Hiding Spot, also a very three-dimensional game.
00:18:06
Speaker
it It is. ah yeah less Less so, but ah but still very much three-dimensional. um And yeah, it um ah really was really enjoyed how quickly that one came together and was wanting to make a kind of a spiritual successor to it.
00:18:25
Speaker
And then I was just like, okay, there was a Ludum Dare coming up, and I figured no matter what the the theme is going to be I'm going to find a way to make a ah hiding spot successor using that theme, and I'll just let the theme decide what the game's going to be to some degree. and And that theme ended up being ah sacrifices must be made.
00:18:49
Speaker
And all of course, most people applied the sacrifices to the to like to gameplay, that you have to sacrifice this resource or something. um But ah since I was already kind of like dead set on the kind of game I was going to make, I couldn't really see a a resource sacrificing approach uh that that clicked and then just like oh but what if i don't know i i had and still have a like a problem with attachment to physical things and um nostalgia and uh and i was like well what if i try to make like a therapeutic thing about like trying to um not hold on to physical things that are you know or try to remove some of that
00:19:40
Speaker
don't know, the preciousness about it um that ah that I had. And then so then it just became thematic thing. But it's like gameplay wise, the the example I came back to a bunch of times is like this could have been a game about like rescuing cats from trees or something that you have to like return to their owners or something, or, you know, it could have been any number of other visual representations of, of the same things. And then, yeah, it's ah it's of course would feel like a completely different experience because of the presentation and themes and stuff, but yeah.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah. I can't even remember the scope of that Lundari game, but I remember I played it and I liked it.
Project Growth and Publication of Bonfire Peaks
00:20:24
Speaker
um At what point did you like have a sense of like, like was it just a continual, was it a frog boiling thing where like you thought like, oh, well, there's a little bit more but here, there's a little bit more here.
00:20:36
Speaker
Or at what point did you realize like, oh yeah, this is a ah really meaty project? um Yeah, probably a few months later, I was just like kept chipping away at it. And then every time i like I would have an idea for a new trap type or like there's some some that we ah just didn't end up using in the game because there weren't many puzzles that came out of it. But like one of it, too, is like there were pressure plates that made these like platforms elevate or lower.
00:21:07
Speaker
and a few other things. Anyways, but I just kept having a, oh, well, what if what if there was this kind of item? and then And then ah every time you add one of those, it's like, okay, well, then how can that interact with all the other things?
00:21:22
Speaker
And yeah, I remember when I first, like ah maybe six months into development, I i pitched to you, Alan, the main mechanic of that became DLC 3.
00:21:35
Speaker
um And you told me I was never going to finish this game.
00:21:41
Speaker
I was almost right. You were almost right. ah So, Corey, have I ever told you the story from my perspective on signing this game at Drac Neck?
00:21:52
Speaker
No, I don't think you have. I'd love to hear it.
00:21:56
Speaker
Alan, I would love it if you and tried first, so as opposed to defending yourself later.
00:22:05
Speaker
I mean, i i can't remember how far into development of Bonfire Peaks it was, like probably a couple of years. And like we were chatting and um i think I was telling you like Yeah, you could you could take this to publishers.
00:22:22
Speaker
um like There's only a small number of publishers who'd be who'd be interested in something like this, but I don't know, you've got the bones of something really, really good here. ah So like i listed off a few um names of publishers that could be worth emailing.
00:22:38
Speaker
And then at the bottom, I'm like, me, I guess? i And I said something like, i probably wouldn't be any good at it, ah but ah it's really good and maybe we could figure something out.
00:22:53
Speaker
And, and that, that was to be clear, that was not a publishing offer. That was like a, i I guess I could be on the list of potential publishers that we, that you, you could talk to and say, Hey, you should publish my game.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, so here's how this went down from my perspective. For the folks who have been enjoying this long, ongoing what is Seren's workday experience-like narrative that has been building up now across the podcast cinematic universe, now that we're on episode 31, I was brought on to help finish up A Monster's Expedition.
00:23:33
Speaker
And I spent about... Seven-ish months on that project. And as we are in the absolute throes of trying to get this thing shipped, I mean daily meetings with Apple and each other and like working the weekend before the final build to make sure that this thing wasn't burning people's hands if they were playing on a lower-powered iPhone.
00:24:04
Speaker
Or on a tvOS or whatever. Don't even say that demon's name. Yes. Like, as as we were trying to get all of this through, sends me Slack DM that says something to the effect of, you ever play ah Pipe Push Paradise or Hiding Spot?
00:24:27
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, i've played Pipe Push Paradise. Why? Yeah. He's like, well, i don't know. ah i was talking to the developer, Corey. ah he's He's making a new game, and I was thinking of maybe publishing it.
00:24:39
Speaker
And I was like, huh, we should talk about that ah more. but We should talk about it like after the game ships. And then like a week later, before the game is launched, before Monsters is launched, he says, so I think I signed Bonfire Peaks.
00:24:56
Speaker
And I'm like, what? I'm not unhappy that we ended up publishing Bonfire Peaks. No, but but I understand. I understand where you were at emotionally there. I was all hands on deck on monsters.
00:25:13
Speaker
And then, ah then, Foss of Ships. We do... ah I don't think I've shared this with anyone Alan asks me to do some like exit interview stuff with everyone on the team that was leaving never once mentioning that he intended for me to stay on board and so I was like at the end of I was like so am I leaving?
00:25:42
Speaker
is my contract up? he's like do you want it to be? and I was like what? What do you mean you don't have a firm plan about this? And now five years later or so? Yeah, five years later.
00:25:56
Speaker
I mean, there's no defending this. i was exactly the kind of person that would not have had a plan. ah now Now I would have a plan. Five years ago, me, I mean, I was pretty burnt out in my defense.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yes, you were, but you would, like, usually a sign of burnout, usually a symptom of it, is not immediately signing up for another multi-year project.
00:26:21
Speaker
ah I'm just checking the records.
00:26:28
Speaker
You didn't sign a publishing contract until after we shipped Montero Expedition. Okay, so I think you just told me that you were gonna publish it. Yeah, I mean, that sounds sounds about right. like i I wasn't party to the contract discussion, so like from my perspective, it was signed.
00:26:46
Speaker
Probably also Alan ah didn't have any, didn't realize that he would co-create so much of this game. Yeah. Right. We should definitely get into that. Like I signed this and like, don't know, i' we'd we'd been talking a lot about design, like regardless, but like that was like high level, like what design decisions should like will will be best for this game.
00:27:10
Speaker
And then what it turned into was like, oh, yeah, I'm just opening up the level editor and making like half the game, half the levels in the game. Yeah, more than half in the end.
00:27:21
Speaker
Is it more than half? It is. It is more than half of the base game. yeah Yeah. I think it's... ah I might have more than half of the main path, but you definitely have more than half of the optional levels.
00:27:36
Speaker
I'm pretty sure. Yes. i As someone who uploaded... art assets and video assets, of at one by one of every single level name in the base game, you put the name Alan in all the levels that you worked on, and let me tell you, it is a stunning amount.
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah. ah I hate to break this to you, but like, all of the net levels which have Alan in the name were Alan levels. Not every Alan level has Alan in the name.
00:28:09
Speaker
No, I know this for a fact too. Yeah. But even just those is like half the base game that have Alan in the internal name. Yeah, Alan just exhales puzzles, you know. This is, and I have since like roasted him for this for years.
00:28:28
Speaker
And he every single time says, well, it's Corey's fault because Corey made a good level editor and gave it to me. Well, more than a good level editor, Kory made a game with really deep, interesting systems to explore.
00:28:43
Speaker
Like, that's that's just catnap. Yeah, it's it's it was so, like, i I, you know, not to stroke your ego, but I do think you are the the best puzzle designer that I'm aware of.
Development Challenges and Contributions
00:28:57
Speaker
ah So to have you just, like, dig into the game and flesh out so many things was so exciting. Like, it just, like, yeah, I didn't want to, i'm not at all precious about, you know, having to, like,
00:29:11
Speaker
have designed more than half of the puzzles, for example. you know So I am like, hey, if we're we're making this game be the best version of itself it can be, like I was so glad that you were jumping in so wholeheartedly.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah, and it started out, I think, as me just like making a placeholder level that would like demonstrate the kind of trick that like I would think like, oh yeah, there should be a level about X. So I'm just going to make a level that's like a boring level about X. And that's just going to be there as a reminder that, yeah, we should explore that mechanic or that interaction.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I'd do that little and then I'd get to new era and I'm like, okay, well, there's this interaction and this interaction and this interaction and this interaction. And I would just like blast out, like, okay, well, how do we force this interaction? Okay, here's like ah a thing doing that. Okay, how do we force this interaction? Here's a thing doing that.
00:30:08
Speaker
and I think we've discussed this, but like not on air anywhere. Like I actually think that your levels are more visually interesting because like mine were very practical. It's like, okay, I've got a job here. I'm going to get in. I'm going to force a setup that like forces you to do this specific trick. And then I'm going to get out.
00:30:26
Speaker
And I think your levels are more vibey than mine. Oh, I appreciate that. I do think I'm personally really drawn to levels that aren't visually intimidating from the jump, so or that that are... um that look like you you can wrap your head around the possibility space and like, ah you know, relatively quickly. But then also, of course, yeah, the the choice of how the visual layout of it feels is a big part of how how the level feels in the first place, even before you've touched the mechanics.
00:31:01
Speaker
And just to tangent completely, something that makes me think is like, These are 3D levels and like almost all of them are like very playable without ever moving the camera.
00:31:14
Speaker
That's hard. That's so hard. Yeah. And I think we did a pretty good job of it. I think so too. I liberally move the camera around, I think in part just to give myself something to do while I'm thinking.
00:31:28
Speaker
But yeah, I don't think you need it. No, and like, i i think I would play it and like forget that the camera control is there. And like, I think that was probably good because it would force me to play level as if there is no camera control. Like it's it's a good quality of life thing.
00:31:44
Speaker
But if we were designing puzzles, assuming like, okay, well, this is a bit awkward for visibility. So I guess I'll just have to shift the camera to see what's around that corner. It would have really hurt the user experience.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, and it and it could feel cheap that you're like, yeah sure yeah I'm struggling with this puzzle only because I didn't think to look around that corner. um Yeah, you want to make sure that at least all the all ther relevant ah moving parts are very easy to read.
00:32:15
Speaker
And and we you know there are some some ways, i think there some art changes and stuff that could have could made certain levels that much easier to read. But it's ah it's a tough it's a tough thing getting three d depth to read, right?
00:32:29
Speaker
And also just like like the camera perspective isn't, it's not flat, but it like ah it's not orthographic or like a an isometric game or something where like something very far away is the same size as if it's right next to the camera. you know But it is flatter than certain perspectives. i think in part like so I wanted to make the levels easier to read on one level, but then that also kind of compromises on the being able to read the visual depth sometimes. It's it's tough to find a one-size-fits-all solution.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah, ah so we signed the game. Alan makes, like, half the game. And then a year after we sign it, basically, we ship it.
00:33:15
Speaker
What are your memories of the launch? um Well, i I mean, the big thing was just, like, okay, we we made a decision around, like, we're going to cut this entire area and and so and save it for DLC.
00:33:31
Speaker
And then, OK, we're actually going to cut this entire area also and save it for DC. Oh, you know what? Three or third times a charm. We're going to cut this area also and save it for DLC. And that made it possible to ship the game in 2021.
00:33:45
Speaker
um I feel like at the time we like we made to talk in generalities of like, oh yeah, we could save this for DLC. But like we, we were cutting it for pacing as much as we were cutting it for, we need to ship this game. Yeah, that's true.
00:34:02
Speaker
i can't I can't remember if like we discussed DLC as the... Do you know how much like you needed the concept of it being DLC to convince you that, like no, this is okay to cut this?
00:34:15
Speaker
Or how much the DLC was an option, but it didn't finalize until after we shipped the game? Yeah, i think I think in my mind it was like it would feel like unfinished if we didn't somehow get the other parts out.
00:34:31
Speaker
I remember internally committing, like saying, yeah, okay, sure, we can do DLC as my way to convince everyone to just get the game out the door when we needed it. Yeah, and you're like, we're not actually going to make the DLC.
00:34:46
Speaker
No, I thought we were going to make the DLC. I thought the DLC was going to be out and finished by like, I don't know, 2023? Who didn't?
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah, i I didn't think it would take... I even thought 2023 would be pushing it for how long it would take. It's two years after. I mean, even even the full game, like we signed that in 2020.
00:35:10
Speaker
ah i feel like we were aiming for the first half of 2021. Right, yeah and it was end of September? Yeah, it was it was ah end of September. we we Yeah, because we launched at the tail end of the first year of the PS5.
00:35:27
Speaker
Right, yeah. Right, and there was third there was ah excitement around us using the PS5-specific features, like game help. And Sony helped promote the game a little bit.
00:35:39
Speaker
um you know they They were great business partners through all of that. but yeah that so Specifically, in my head, that's the only reason we we also came out on PS4, was because the PS5 was still new and harder to find.
00:35:55
Speaker
Yeah, and you yeah where it's like if we're developing for one, might as well. Yeah, it's like if it's coming to Switch, it can run on PS4. Gosh, yeah, I forgot about that whole period where you just couldn't find a PS5 anywhere.
00:36:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was like, okay. And then ah the player stats turned out, like it was like 90% of the Monfare Feast players on PlayStation were PS5. Right. That's funny.
00:36:19
Speaker
It's like they didn't, it's like we we put it out on PS4. one played the PS4 version. People play the PS5 version. yeah And you can play the PS4 version on PS5 if you want to be... Exactly, if you want two Platinum Trophies. um If you want to play the whole game a second time, but this time it looks a little worse and runs a little worse.
00:36:38
Speaker
um but Speaking of, I remember... So, you led the port project for Nintendo Switch. And we had someone, Tyler...
00:36:52
Speaker
work on. I'm like, are we not saying a name for some reason? Tyler was so instrumental in it. Tyler helped get the game shipped on PlayStation and then also got the DLC hook set up.
00:37:09
Speaker
He came back for DLC 1. I don't think that we would have done DLC on PlayStation if Tyler hadn't been there to set that up in the first place. ah Because DLC 2 and 3, we were able to just leverage what was already in the project.
00:37:24
Speaker
Right, exactly. Yeah, like so much of the stuff that we had to do for the first chapter, it was like, okay, now that's done for the entire game. Oh yes, DLC 1 was the hardest release management thing that this game did, for sure.
00:37:37
Speaker
Yeah, and like I know, I mean, you know and NDAs are a thing, so I don't know what what to say. But it it is hard. It's hard to make DLC for a game ah for all sorts of reasons, especially when you're on a number of platforms that have different systems and rules. and um Yeah, trying to align everything and be like, all right, this is how this is the most restrictive, so we need to build the entire thing from the ground up with this in mind.
00:38:06
Speaker
Yeah. etc etc no there's yeah just like how on from a technical level if it doesn't run on nintendo switch we can't really do it yeah yeah i don't know it's a it's a weird thing to have a game is that like this is not the first time i've done it it probably won't be the last but like just if you look at a screenshot of nintendo switch and playstation 5 right next to each other they do They do not always look like the same game. And I mean that like in an impressive... like This game scales really dramatically.
00:38:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, ah it's, there's some, some stuff that just had way too much of a performance impact on switch. And also see if i this comes back to if I was smarter, but if I, if I knew um like some smart way to draw all those little cubes on the GPU and a smarter way or whatever, like that's all, all those tiny little cubes are real geometry in the scene ah we're adding to the triangle poly count, you know, and it's like, it's, um it is a lot of triangles for poor little Nintendo Switch.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like if you, I think like if the game didn't have free camera movement, you could maybe fake some of that stuff as like flat textures. Sure. Yeah. But no, the game, the game has free camera movement, which means that you can't really fake that kind of stuff.
00:39:34
Speaker
No. Yeah. And and ah Mary, who who worked on the the environment art for for a while, um who's like responsible for yeah how much but how much better it looks than when I was working on it alone.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, she wanted to go even smaller with the cubes of possible. Because her specialty is these really hyper-detailed voxel art scenes.
00:40:03
Speaker
And ah yeah, i had to we had to compromise there for sure just to get just so that it that the Switch version wouldn't be an entirely different ah project. Yeah, just an entire different video game.
00:40:15
Speaker
yeah It's like, um I think back to when Square Enix wanted to put Final Fantasy XV on the Nintendo Switch, but that was a game that like really pushed the PS4 to its limit, so they made an entire Chibi demake of that game.
00:40:30
Speaker
They just made a whole separate game and called it Final Fantasy XV Pocket Edition. Right, right. you know It's a big... ah It's a big undertaking, obviously. um Yeah. Yeah, we've we've ah we've only just now, like, to to to be able to ship DLC 2 and 3, had to <unk>t split the project in two, finally.
00:40:56
Speaker
ah But up until a few months ago, it was one project for every single platform. Yeah, no, that's, and you know... Again, i think this the scalability of it, it was just really impressive. i think that...
00:41:11
Speaker
you know I think the fact that you can have a really good experience on Nintendo Switch is also like not something to be taken for granted.
Technical Challenges and New Projects
00:41:20
Speaker
like Yes, it doesn't look the same as the PlayStation 5 version or the PC version.
00:41:25
Speaker
ah For anyone who has not see who is not like fanatically sought out all of the different versions to put them side by side, um which is probably everyone, ah the PS5 version...
00:41:37
Speaker
Just looks like the PC version with all the graphics settings basically on max. Maxed out, yeah, exactly. And then it runs at 60. And like the fact that you can just play the Nintendo Switch version and have a great time, I think it's also a testament to how strong the game is, even like as a more minimalist experience.
00:41:58
Speaker
Well, also, I just think of the first party games on Switch, like ah like even even the Link's Awakening like remake um dips, like at the frame rate dips down to like 10 frames a second sometimes. And i was just like, okay, so it is it's just hard to make a modern game that runs...
00:42:19
Speaker
Super smoothly there. And we chose smooth running over eye candy. Fidelity, yeah. So there's a couple things that, yeah, like there's some more jagged edges than there are in other platforms, but um try to keep the frame rate as smooth as possible so that that would be just the priority.
00:42:39
Speaker
And one, I think that was a great decision. But two, ah yeah, it's it's very funny with the recent launch at time of recording of the Nintendo Switch 2 that now that there's more powerful hardware, ah Nintendo patched a couple of their games, but also just like most of their first party games that have that had performance issues just got brute forced into running well because they all shipped at uncapped frame rates. Yeah.
00:43:07
Speaker
um so you look at like first party games like hyrule warriors age of calamity and bayonetta 3 and suddenly they all run at a solid frame rate and you're like huh no yeah it's a dramatically more powerful turns out if you go from roughly the power scale of an iphone 6 to roughly the power scale of a ps4 uh you sure do get better frame rates Yeah.
00:43:32
Speaker
I remember you saying it's a 2014 NVIDIA tablet pretending to be a game console. Yeah, basically. I think that was your choice of words. that that's yes that that is um When I talk to developers about the power scale of the Nintendo Switch, like, it's a home console. How weak could it be?
00:43:49
Speaker
And I'm like, iPhone 6. Yeah, it's a miracle that, like... iPhone 17 is coming out this year. ah Right, exactly. I know it's ah many, many generations later.
00:44:00
Speaker
But games, the the idea that that Breath of the Wild or whatever, like, run at all on it is a miracle. yeah That whole system is is a damn miracle.
00:44:11
Speaker
Anyways, instead of just fawning over the Nintendo Switch. ah So, yeah. Yeah. it's It's funny because it really feels like aeud as soon as Bonfire Peaks DLC wrapped up, you started rapid fire announcing all of these new game projects.
00:44:27
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that are like, I'm i'm breaking away from the but the puzzle space for these these two games. but It's great film. I know, I'm coming back.
00:44:39
Speaker
Are you? Tire Boy is going to make you millions. You're not going to want to come back to the... I was going to say, what happens when a Tire Boy shows up at ah the Key Lease?
00:44:51
Speaker
you i eat Well, you know.
00:44:56
Speaker
I think it's just like, you know, the draw of of puzzle games is too strong that no one going can stay away for too long. No, I love these types of games, and I definitely am excited to make another one. But I think, ah in general, want to prioritize like some really small scope games, and potentially a puzzle game is a good fit for that, but we know how that can go.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, ah scope and puzzle games and, you know... ah Look, if if you if you try to pitch me on Bonfire Peaks 2 or DLC Round 2, I'm just going to give you the longest stare ever.
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah, so so you're not allowed to pitch Bonfire Peaks 2. No, I have no interest. if If you were to pitch us Bonfire Peaks 2, we would be obligated to say yes. So, like, it's a tricky it's a tricky dynamic here. No, that is not, in fact, ah a real thing.
00:45:56
Speaker
I'm telling you as the person who signs the contracts, if you if you pitch me Bonfire Peaks 2, I will be unable to prevent ah my mouse clicking the sign contract button.
00:46:09
Speaker
um
00:46:11
Speaker
But you're not going to. The DLC... No, I have... i have The DLC is Bonfire Peaks 2, really. It really is. There is so much content in that DLC. Holy cow. If anyone is listening to this and bought the base game, enjoyed it, and did not buy the DLC, have I got good news for you. There is a whole sequel.
00:46:32
Speaker
There is an entire full-priced video game's worth of content in that DLC. Absolutely. I'm going to put someone that we both know on blast here.
00:46:45
Speaker
ah When you announced Tire Boy at Day of the Devs, first of all, I saw that and I was just like, hell yeah! Because that just brought me so much joy.
00:46:58
Speaker
Sasha, who worked on Bonfire Peaks for its original launch on PlayStation and worked on some of the activity card stuff with us, hu Did not put together, i guess, that the Corey that was working on that game was the same Corey from Bonfire Peaks.
00:47:16
Speaker
And just started posting about how unbelievably excited she was for Tire Boy. And I just like went to Discord and de-entered her. It's like, you know, that's the Bonfire Peaks Corey. And she was like, oh my God, small world.
00:47:28
Speaker
Yeah, well, because when we worked together for Bonfire Peaks stuff, I don't think we ever did a video call or any face-to-face thing. No, so it's like seeing your face and it's like, yeah, You just don't recognize that guy? Yeah, no, it's like, yeah, no, that's Bonfire Peaks, Corey.
00:47:45
Speaker
But there was a yeah there was this really exciting opportunity ah to to get to to show that there. Yeah. It's funny, as as giant as that game is, it it still feels like ah you can make big open-world Zelda-like game and it's less work than Bonfire DLC 2 3. Yeah.
00:48:10
Speaker
yeah I wonder, Alan, what next Draconec and Friends related project will be at the next day of the devs, because we've got a real streak going between us and our collaborators showing up. Oh, I mean, if we can count ah people we've worked with getting their games in ah the devs, then yeah, like I think we can keep that streak going a long time.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just saying, like, weeks we were in two in a row, and then immediately Corey was in the next one. For people who haven't been following you on social media, Corey, do you want to give a bit of a pitch for both Tire Boy and also Birdigo?
00:48:50
Speaker
Sure. So um so to Tire Boy is action-adventure It's a Zelda. it' this all the like but with exhilarating movement like a sonic or mario mario i've been i've been like called out for pronouncing mario mario before so i just wanted to catch it bro um But yeah, it's a it is like the familiar Zelda-like structure where there's like a main quest line and then all sorts of side questy things to do, characters to meet. and ah But yeah, then it's like a heavy focus on platforming and playful movement.
00:49:29
Speaker
um And that's been just like, yeah, just it feels like a different medium than the games I've made in the past. It's so different. um But I'm super excited about that. It's about a boy who is a tire a tire person.
00:49:47
Speaker
It's kind of and unclear whether or not the tire is part of his body like a like a um like a turtle shell or whether or not he just is wearing it. But either way, it never comes off.
00:49:59
Speaker
and um And he's just trying to figure out his place in the world and um make contact with... so with you know long lost family members so and so that's tire boy it's uh it's has it's has at least a year of development uh remaining but uh vertigo this other game is is coming out in uh sometime in july of this year and it is a um a word game and a card game
00:50:32
Speaker
It's technically a ah roguelike deck builder, and but to whether or not you're familiar with those, if you're familiar with them, great. If not, it it doesn't really matter. it's it It hopefully will just appeal to anybody who likes a good word game.
00:50:45
Speaker
And it it plays similarly to like if Bellatro or Slay the Spire were a word game. ah And then there's also this theming around your runs in this game are are somehow helping birds migrate from their point A to point b And the birds do a little little stopovers along the way. And each time they do a stopover, you play a few rounds of this word game. And then that somehow fuels these birds for their next a little bit of their journey.
00:51:19
Speaker
And ah It's got kind of arbitrary theming, but, uh, but, uh, I like that it adds, some personality. I do you think by the time you're done with Tire Boy development, the idea that it is, uh,
00:51:34
Speaker
an easier game to make than Bonfire Peaks will be a a bit laughable, but... Well, I don't know. Part of it, too, is that I'm, you know, seven years is more capable now, now so that's part it. Seven years more hubris.
00:51:52
Speaker
Well, sure. Or, or you know, or that could be saying that so seven years ago... years more jaded. Seven years ago, I had no business making a game like Bonfire Peaks, and and And now it's like i can i can I have some experience making games, but it's just like, yeah, the edge cases and the way that the way that the game is structured, i you know i I don't agree with now.
00:52:20
Speaker
like As far as ah the way the code is structured and set up, i like, oh, this could all just be so much simpler if I made it again now, but... I will say that Bonfire Peaks start to finish ah longer than a traditional AAA dev cycle.
00:52:38
Speaker
Yeah. Though also, i you know, I held day jobs in there and stuff. No, I understand. I just want to put that out for people's reference when they're like... It is long. Yeah, it was 2018 until a couple months ago.
00:52:51
Speaker
Yeah, five to six years is like the average AAA development cycle these days. Mm-hmm. And that's ridiculously long. But, you know, i i get where you look at that and then immediately have the hubris to say, let's just go make an open world game.
00:53:13
Speaker
No, so so its I should say also, like, I've yeah i've got a incredible team working on Tireboy with me. Also, I'm not like, a so so it's it's their their talents are are definitely helping me feel confident about our ability to to deliver.
00:53:32
Speaker
one of my One of my teammates, ah Thomas Tobin, he and I... So most of the people working on the team, I met working at Unity and ah Thomas being one of them. Thomas is like a wizard at using Houdini to generate maps and like can just... like make these it has these hyper complex node setups that end up just spitting out beautiful worlds with a rule-based placement for all sorts of stuff and so having a super weapon like like him um making it so that like these we don't have to hand place so much of of the world is like is an example of like
00:54:18
Speaker
I don't know how we're we're we're being scrappy in spite of a small team size to make a game like this. But in spite of being open world, full 3D, whatever, it's still very much an indie game. It's not going to be like a Breath of the Wild sized.
00:54:34
Speaker
um So it's it just like has a similar structure, but on a like a scope that's probably closer to like the N64 Zelda size.
00:54:46
Speaker
So what... you know No spoilers, but like, what are what are the Ubisoft Tower equivalents in Tire Boy? The Ubisoft tower?
00:54:57
Speaker
Yeah, the you gotta climb a climate tower to reveal a portion of the map. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, does Ubisoft, did that start in Assassin's Creed or something? and this hard it i built Yeah, Assassin's Creed and Into Far Cry, and then it just became across all of their games. Even the funniest one was when ah they released a drive a co-op driving game called The Crew, and you had to drive up towers to reveal parts of the US map. Oh, yeah. They're so committed. They're unshakable commitment.
00:55:29
Speaker
If the formula works. Yes. And then even when Breath of the Wild came out, they were like, well, there's one thing we know from other games. You've got to climb these towers to reveal parts of the map.
00:55:41
Speaker
Yeah, so we don't currently have towers that relate to the map in the game, but I think that's, we've just found ah the biggest mistake that we've made. So what's what's what's the funniest thing that can kit you can do for that?
00:55:55
Speaker
i and Yeah, I definitely, i I want to lean in to some degree into the the weirdness in this game. a car shop?
00:56:09
Speaker
Like a car repair shop? to Maybe so. Oh, it's like a a tower of empty tires. Oh, that that's that's cosmically horrifying. Yeah.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, there is like ah an interesting thing where if you see a tire by itself, it's like ah the tragic environmental storytelling in this game, you know, in a way that it would just be a random object otherwise.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's your skeleton on the toilet. Yeah. And still still determining how puzzly it's going to get, just to bring it back on topic here. like a There is an expectation when you're making a Zelda, like, okay, so what are what are your shrines?
00:56:50
Speaker
what are the Or something similar, like what are the the puzzles in your dungeons? Because right now where we're it's pretty light on puzzliness, which I'm enjoying.
00:57:01
Speaker
ah like I often find puzzles and and these kinds of games that kind of like just get in the way and slow down pacing not in Breath of the Wild like i like I like those ones but yeah I mean I feel like Zelda games have done a really good job of combining like puzzle dungeons with the overall game and games aping Zelda games maybe haven't so much I think, yeah, part of that is that those puzzles are so focused on the like navigating the 3D space and traversal in a way that like often... So, for example, in the the Spider-Man games, like the one a few years ago, um you're you're swinging around Manhattan and having a great time being Spider-Man, and then all of a sudden you're playing Pipe Dream,
00:57:57
Speaker
and on a screen, you know? So it's... I don't understand that at all, what the instinct was. thing I mean, this is what so many like big AAA games do, is they're like, well, we need something to break up.
00:58:14
Speaker
like We need minigames, we need distractions. And the easiest thing, seemingly, for most of these AAA companies to conceptualize is... A puzzle in a non-puzzle game. That's what the players want.
00:58:29
Speaker
Yeah, just bring bring the gameplay to a screeching halt. Like, I sit here. One, co-host of a puzzle development podcast. Two, producer at a puzzle studio.
00:58:42
Speaker
I play so many of these games. And let me tell you something. The last thing I want to do when I play Spider-Man is suddenly have to do a pipe puzzle.
00:58:56
Speaker
Right. Well, and there could have been ways do- But if you were playing a soccer band game in a Spider-Man, that would be great, though. no because Because it's never- First of all, the game design is fully a so ah operating under the assumption that the player does not want to be playing this, does not know the rules- And so they're all super, super simple and deeply uninteresting. There are never things that have comment, like are in conversation with that actual puzzle design space.
00:59:29
Speaker
They are just there because they feel like a puzzle needs to be there. Right. yeah and Yeah, it does feel like you just suddenly have a different game thrown at you. And and that's the the context and expectations are all... Like if you're watching an action movie and then suddenly there's like a really dry, dramatic scene that...
00:59:51
Speaker
like has a shot that doesn't change for five minutes or, you know, like you're like, Oh, I might really appreciate this. If I was like going into this, wanting a drama or something, but, but because I'm, I'm in an action headspace or whatever that this is, has just, it doesn't flow.
01:00:12
Speaker
ah pleasantly. No, it's, it's frankly, yeah, just bizarre. This has been a trend in AAA for a number of years.
01:00:23
Speaker
And I honestly think this is very funny. I think the only games recently to do it even mildly successfully are the Star Wars Jedi games, a Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor.
01:00:37
Speaker
Specifically because one, all the puzzle rooms are completely optional. They're off to the side. And two, they're all puzzles that are exclusively made possible via the traversal mechanics. So they're like platforming puzzles.
01:00:54
Speaker
Yeah, it comes back to, again, like the the what makes the Zelda the Breath of the Wild puzzles so exciting. You don't leave the... the context of like what it's like to play this game, to just suddenly suddenly Peter Parker is looking at the screen and you're seeing in the first person. no you're using you're using force push and force pull a lot.
01:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I could very easily, urbanbae very easily, there's that hubris again, yeah but I can imagine... Like a Spider-Man, Spider-Man puzzles that involve like webbing things together in a specific way or whatever. Like it, it could be done to stay in the reality of your Spider-Man. But that's a much heavier animation lift than.
01:01:38
Speaker
right. now we're going to look at some 2D assets of pipes and you're going to move a cursor around using see the left analog stick and you're going press the X button to rotate. Yeah. We're going to assign somebody who doesn't want to make this to oh yeah their job to figure this out. Yeah, hey, game a gameplay designer who joined Insomniac because you want to work on like Ratchet and Clank or like the feeling of swinging around on a spider what the Spider-Man web or like the visceralness of like punching as Wolverine.
01:02:12
Speaker
No, no, no, no, no. You for the next three months are working on this puzzle game. Yeah.
Criticism of AAA Games' Puzzles
01:02:21
Speaker
I kind of feel like the structure of the most recent Zelda games of like, it's an open world and then you just stumble across these things, which are self-contained puzzle things.
01:02:33
Speaker
It kind of only works because they've also got such deep systems. Yeah. And like, it's a structure that you could kind try and copy and it would just end up with a really bad game.
01:02:47
Speaker
like the thing that makes Breath of the Wild and Tears the Kingdom good is actually not at all the same thing that made the earlier Zelda games good because the earlier Zelda games like are very much Metroidvania like oh you're going into this dungeon to get this key item and that key item going to be really used in Zelda games are Metroidvania we can't do this they are we can't do this ah You obtain items which let you progress further in an overworld.
01:03:19
Speaker
Yeah, further, not in previous areas. Yeah, it needs to wrap around on itself more. There is less backtracking in a Zelda game. You are not constantly walking through environments not knowing how you can get someplace.
01:03:34
Speaker
I cannot be doing a Metroidvania discourse on the Dracneck official podcast. it's ah It would be as a light pivot, though, to to make it Metroidvania, I guess. is I think there are there are Zelda games which are very Metroidvania-y, even if most of them are like very linear like a lot of them do hide stuff that you can backtrack to so like i i i structurally i don't think there's like such a big difference there um i don't think the most interesting thing about metroidvania is is the backtracking i guess is my position there but let's yeah let's not dig into metroidvania's on the podcast
01:04:15
Speaker
But like ah yeah I guess what I'm i'm digging into there is like it's unclear from what I know about the game if there are even going to be like abilities that you unlock over the course of the game.
01:04:27
Speaker
um and like I can certainly imagine there could be, but it's also I could also imagine a version of that game which is just like, no, this is the Taiboy and that this is what Taiboy does.
01:04:39
Speaker
Yeah, we've we've ah gone both ways about that. And also just, ah okay, a huge part of Zelda games is increasing your health capacity. and like do is that Is that a part of this game? Or are we just doing it because...
01:04:54
Speaker
That's what's expected. And as of as of time of recording, there is you you have four hearts and that's it like throughout the entire game. Things like that. But then, then yeah, we we have um some upgrades like a tire with chains on it for going up icy areas and stuff. and So there's like some some mechanical impacting stuff, but we don't have like something along the lines of like the runes in Breath of the Wild that that open up a puzzle space in a very clear way. So I don't i think it's if someone goes in expecting a puzzly game at the time of recording, I think they will be disappointed. But the game might might shift in that direction.
01:05:41
Speaker
I just don't see a I don't want it to be shoehorned in, that's for sure, after all that we just said. um want it to be like, no, because it makes sense with this ah set of rules and this set of systems ah that you would explore them in this kind of puzzly way.
01:05:58
Speaker
um And so there's some in our dungeon equivalents, there's some layouts that involve like you know rotating room setups and stuff and ah like having to interact with things to progress ah in a sort of puzzly way. But I expect it to be pretty light and pretty disappointed to the listening audience of this particular podcast, maybe.
01:06:21
Speaker
oh Yeah, I mean, i'm just I'm excited for that game. I, you know, i look forward to exploring the world as Tyre Boy. um are you messaging anything about when people ah can learn more?
01:06:38
Speaker
No, I think ah follow at tireboygame.com on Blue Sky for news and at toboggan.work is me. um Generally, in the short term, i yeah, I'm really, i all my my thinking is about this game, Vertigo, and because that is coming out soon. And ah and yeah, Tiger Boy is not, but you can keep an eye on those Blue Skies to keep posted.
01:07:05
Speaker
Heck yeah. All right. Well, speaking of Blue Sky, um so where can people find you? Oh, um yeah, i think ah um kind of drifted away from Twitter.
01:07:19
Speaker
Thank goodness. Whatever happened to that website? a i haven't checked it out in a while. At Grok, is this true? Yeah, at the moment, Blue Sky is the only thing i'm active on, but who knows how the landscape of social media will change even a year.
01:07:39
Speaker
but Yeah. i felt To say I've been happy with Blue Sky is wrong, but like I've been content with it being my social media platform.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I don't trust the leadership for sure either way, and I don't trust the content moderation team, you and I don't trust... or whatever, but it's just like... Yeah, have you ever... It's the best we've got right now. You ever had a post that goes onto the Discover feed?
01:08:08
Speaker
I don't think so. Good. Try to keep it that way. Oh, so you you posted something and got replies you would have liked to not have or something? Yeah, people that...
01:08:20
Speaker
have no idea who I am or what I'm talking about in response to a joke. hu People don't actually understand jokes on Blue Sky. It's great. very no Very normal and healthy website.
01:08:33
Speaker
Anyways, that's going to do it for our podcast. Thank you again, Corey, for jumping on and recording. um Alan and I have joked that we could probably fill half dozen episodes recording with you.
01:08:47
Speaker
And ah that does, in fact, seem to be the case with us having gone over on this episode. And really, it feels like scratching the surface on Bodfire stuff.
01:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, we didn't get into ah pulling the curtain back on on what Seren does all day long. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what do I do all day long? you tell You tell me.
01:09:11
Speaker
You're wrapping up, but I could go another hour. Why why don't you three minutes? Because now I need to know what what you what you think I do all day. Well, so I know what you do, what you've done for the but like when we worked together, what you do for Bonfire Peaks, what you do with the full scope of your responsibilities. Otherwise, it's none of my business.
01:09:32
Speaker
Fair. But yeah, you, I mean, you've been so instrumental and such a pleasure to work throughout the whole process. Been very patient with me in my, you know, the temper tantrums every now and then.
01:09:46
Speaker
why Why is it like this? Me? Because it is. I'm sorry. Yeah, exactly. You being you being basically a a bridge between me and the consoles, and they unfortunately being the messenger of that news sometimes. that But someone's got to deliver that news. Sometimes I just got to say, Unity made a bug three years ago and has made no effort to fix it, so we have to hack our own build pipeline for a patch. Sorry.
01:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, we did that. so really It's a really fun back and forth. But no, that's, yeah, I'm just happy that it's out there and people have completed the DLC now on all the platforms and have enjoyed it.
01:10:32
Speaker
so Well, and in any decent world, when i when I come crawling back to puzzle games, I hope we we get to to work together again. I hope so as well.
01:10:43
Speaker
Yeah, on Bonafo Peaks 2.
01:10:46
Speaker
It's three by now. We're we're just counting the DLCs two and I'm pitching Bonfire Beaks three. Great.
01:10:54
Speaker
ah Well, again, thank you for jumping on to record. And thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp.com.
01:11:07
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
01:11:26
Speaker
you