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Episode 32: Chao Cui (Kiko's Apple Adventure)
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In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Chao Cui, the developer behind Kiko's Apple Adventure. Topics include the development of the game, designing a sokoban with movable stages, and the Draknek New Voices Puzzle Grant.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Drakknack and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren, the producer at Drakknack and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Drakknack at Drakknack and Friends.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello. Today, we're joined by Chow Cui, who you may know from their work on Kiko's Apple Adventure. How are you doing today? Great. Thanks. Hi.
Chow Cui's Background and Career in Game Development
00:00:45
Speaker
So can you sort of talk a little bit about yourself for people who are not familiar with you and your games?
00:00:53
Speaker
Yes, sure. I'm Chao. I have been making games for about seven, eight years. ah But in the past three years, my focus was on small, cozy puzzle games.
00:01:08
Speaker
I released Animal Planner, which was my first puzzle game two years ago. And then recently I released Keiko's Apple Adventure. And what got you into your game development in the first place?
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, I have been a player, a gamer for a very long time since I was a kid. And then I tried to study game design in university.
00:01:32
Speaker
So I feel I really enjoy making games. And then I got into the game industry. I used to work in a Chinese game company for two years.
00:01:44
Speaker
And yeah, I guess that's how I get started about like making games. And before focusing on puzzle games, what kind of games were you trying to make?
Shift to Puzzle Games: Interests and Benefits
00:01:55
Speaker
I think it's quite random, just small games. I make games for game jams, like all kinds of games. But I think I am more interested in the adventure games. ah open world explore it exploration games.
00:02:15
Speaker
I remember I spent like lots of time on Don't Starve and Terraria. Yeah, those games were my like ah big interest before the Thinkie puzzle games.
00:02:28
Speaker
And was there moment where you were like, oh, I can make these? I tried to like make those kind of games, like exploration games, but I think it's too much work for a small team. or I really enjoy like ah work on my own or just with one or two people like in a small team.
00:02:48
Speaker
But... ah those those games are like this the scope are too big for me. ah So I think then i played some really great puzzle games like Patrick's Power Box, Being a Nothingless and also A Monster's Expedition.
00:03:08
Speaker
I think those are like those games In those puzzle games, I could really focus on the ah mechanics design and level design, and that was my biggest interest in making games.
00:03:20
Speaker
and The scope looks ah more manageable for a small team, so that's why I switched to making a puzzle games. What interests you the most with like puzzle game design?
00:03:35
Speaker
Well, good question. I would say it's the mechanics design or level design. Like in other genres, you have to think about more things than then that.
00:03:48
Speaker
But in puzzle games, ah the puzzles, the mechanics, the levels are the, I would say like all matters or they are the most important parts.
00:04:00
Speaker
So like with simple mechanics, you could like if the core mechanics is really good or elegant, you could make lots of puzzles around that and to ah explore and develop develop lots of interesting ideas and by making games, is's making puzzle games, it also feels like similar to players playing puzzle games. you you you During the development, you also ah discovery discover lots of new things.
00:04:31
Speaker
I mean, if the system or the core mechanics is really good, there would be something really unexpected or surprising. And as a designer, when I found those ah interesting interactions or those very exciting moments, that really it makes me happy. And I really really enjoy those moments.
00:04:53
Speaker
So I guess that's the like that's the thing interests me the most. Yeah, I i definitely ah find that very, very familiar description. um Yeah, there's a real joy to like figuring out a mechanic or like an edge case that like works really well or like bring things together or like really increases the depth just by making a single decision.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's really true. like Defining edge cases is really fun. And sometimes I think to say if if a puzzle game is good or not, it's how the designers define the edge cases.
Exploring Game Mechanics in Chow's Games
00:05:36
Speaker
ah they If they could like include all the edge cases and make them look uh naturally or if something looks unexpected but they should happen in this system that would be really great or it could be a really elegant system design uh i'd love to chat about that with regards to your specific games you've worked on but before we do i guess you should talk a little bit ah about them so can you describe animal planner and kiko's apple adventure for somebody who might not be familiar with them
00:06:12
Speaker
Yes, sure. So Animal Planner was my first game. It's a game about making animals happy. So in the game, it's it's a sliding puzzle game and ah there would be different animal pieces on the chessboard and each animal has its different needs or preferences.
00:06:38
Speaker
For example, the sheep is they love grass but ah afraid of wolves. So you have to like move around the all the animal pieces.
00:06:50
Speaker
Like for the sheep you need to ah make it next to a grass but at the same time away from all the wolves on the board. That would make this single sheep happy.
00:07:03
Speaker
So to finish a level, you have to like make all the animals different animals to fulfill their needs. That's how the game works. And for Keiko's Apple Adventure, it's a blog post-in game about a cute little bear collecting apples to make a huge apple pie for the annual Apple Festival. That's the theme of this game.
00:07:31
Speaker
And in this game, the the most interesting or unique part is that ah you could move the target point in a Sokoban game. So yeah, that that's how it's different from other Sokoban games. And also there would be some animes like sharks and moles that try to stop the ah little bear Kiko to collect apples. So you have but also have some ah animal AIs to play ah around in this game.
00:08:03
Speaker
And we haven't mentioned it until now, but Kiko's Apple Adventure was also one of the games we selected for the ah last round of the Dragnet New Voices Puzzle Grants. So congratulations to you on on that.
00:08:17
Speaker
ah Yeah, we we really love the game where we so when you applied to that. How did Kiko's Apple Adventure start? Was it that idea of a soccer band game where you can move the targets or was there something else?
00:08:31
Speaker
ah Yes, about how it started. The first game prototype was made in Game Jam. It was like in 2023.
00:08:43
Speaker
uh the thingy game jam thingy puzzle game jam so well as a puzzle fan puzzle lover i feel i need to make a circle band variant at some point yeah so i i was thinking about like what what if like you can move the target points in a circle band game i i guess i was inspired by the ah monsters expedition i was I was playing that game maybe in that year or before. i really liked that the you could like ah move on the raft.
00:09:23
Speaker
So yeah, that's why Keiko's Apple Adventure there's a raft. And then in that game jam, I tried this idea that you could move the raft very often and to ah try to reach the ah boxes, the apples in the Kikos Apple Adventure and also use the raft to build bridges to connect it, to connect to islands.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like it works really well. ah I got some interesting ideas, level ideas, and like Sims players love this idea after the game jam, so we decided to continue working on this idea.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting take, like you mentioned, on Sokban that takes some mechanics like Raft and like pushes them on their head by like you being able to move everything around more freely while still being constrained within the given level design. So it's like a it's like a good balance of having...
00:10:33
Speaker
having a very tightly curated level while also like giving the player a lot of freedom to explore and like make their own discoveries and mistakes within the level structure.
Playtesting and Iteration Process
00:10:44
Speaker
um How did you go about playtesting that?
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, so for every level, I tried to make it a small. I mean, the the size ah small. ah That's my personal preference.
00:11:00
Speaker
And each level, I try to make it have a ah different insight or ah very unique layout. So there could be there should be a ah unique solution for players to so find.
00:11:17
Speaker
So that's the primary thing I did in the playtest to see if players find the expected solution. Also, about the ways of doing playtesting, I think the best way is to just have the players playing games beside you so you could watch them playing and explore the the idea and so ah how they interact with the elements in the levels.
00:11:44
Speaker
And if they could think aloud to try to describe what they are thinking in their minds, then that's the best way to to say if your level or your level design works really well,
00:11:59
Speaker
Sometimes you you couldn't find players to do playtests in person, so I would ask them to make a video recording to record their like playthrough so I could look at the videos and try to ah guess or analyze what was happening in their mind and if that matched what I expected the players to think or to do in the level.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yes, I think that's the ah way I do the play test, but sometimes ah we we could get some like interesting solutions or unexpected ideas. So at that moment, I really try to understand ah the player's mind or to think if if the solution is really interesting, or if it is, I would try to turn this a special solution or unexpected solution into a new level.
00:12:58
Speaker
So yeah, that's that's how I do the playtest. Yeah, I think I've probably had some version of this conversation on the podcast before, but I think when you're playtesting something and then playtesting one level gives you like another idea for a totally different level, and then that level gives you two ideas for different levels, like that's a really good sign for a puzzle game where you you get that exponential growth of like the size of the game or the number of ideas you've got just from watching people play.
00:13:31
Speaker
ah Yeah, I find that really rewarding when that happens. Was there any particular parts of the game that you had to do more iteration with after playtesting than you were expecting?
00:13:46
Speaker
Yes. So there was a mechanic in this game, it's the Groundhog creature, which is more much more complicated than other mechanics because it appears first appears in the fifth chapter of the game.
00:14:06
Speaker
So it was ah connected to all the previous mechanics. That makes it more complicated than other mechanics.
00:14:17
Speaker
And so that's why I need to do like much more design for the edge cases. And also, I need to do much more playtesting for those mechanics.
00:14:33
Speaker
ah for for that Grand Hawk mechanic. And also, it's the ah because it's more complicated, costs lots of bugs in the game. Yeah, but we we we tried to solve that and fix all the bugs probably. And ah I think it worked really well eventually and ah players love that. I think it's the like the best mechanic design in this game.
00:15:05
Speaker
How did you decide which order to introduce the mechanics in? Yeah, that's a good question. So at first, like we we know that this game will be ah six chapters, and each chapter we will introduce a new mechanic.
00:15:24
Speaker
And ah for the first chapter, it's the very basic mechanic, or we could call it core mechanic in this game. It's the moving raft. and then like all the ah later mechanics should be side mechanics or supporting mechanics that could work well with the core mechanics and also add fun to the ah moving rafts core mechanic.
00:15:51
Speaker
So um we also need to like try to balance the difficulty curve to like introduce the mechanics gently to the players.
00:16:04
Speaker
So in the first chapter it's moving rafts The second one was a shark. It's a creature that tried to attack Keiko but it could only move in the in the water area.
00:16:22
Speaker
Actually this shark mechanics was designs later, like it's it's not the second mechanics we design, but we decided to move it or put it to the second chapter. It's because it's something that makes players more excited, like During the play test, we found players, they they they love the AI-related mechanics. So that's why we tried to move the shark mechanics a bit earlier in the game.
00:16:57
Speaker
And then in the third chapter, is like ah but call it a grass box. that could be pushed into the water area and turned into a new land tile, which means you could change the shape of the islands.
00:17:13
Speaker
And this sounds less exciting compared to the ah shark mechanic and ah or It was more common in in some other puzzle games. so But it works really well with the ah moving rafts, the core mechanics. So we have it, but not put it at the second chapter because its it was less exciting than the shark mechanic.
00:17:40
Speaker
and for the fourth chapter it was like a portals and the fifth chapter it was the groundhog and yeah we tried to like control the emotion curve or the difficulty curve so i would say the the two creatures the sharks the shark and the groundhog are the most exciting mechanics in the game so we we introduced the first one adds the second chapter, but ah following it is some like more common mechanics and then ah the fourth and the fifth chapter it's like a
00:18:24
Speaker
a combined big chapters, so we introduced the Groundhog and then for the final chapter it's like ice mechanic which is kind of common but also works really well with the ah moving raft core mechanic and it gives the ah different world feeling of the game like from the graphics it's changed from the land to the ice so yeah we put it ah in the end.
00:18:53
Speaker
And did you say that you had in mind the idea that you wanted six areas before you knew for sure which those areas were going to be?
Game Scope and Market Positioning
00:19:05
Speaker
Or did that come later after you had these mechanics, you're like, okay, this seems like a ah good number? I would say it was at the very early stage, ah but it's more like a project management thing because we try to have a ah scope of this ah game at very early stage. we it could be It should be something like ah two to four hours playtime and for each chapter it's
00:19:38
Speaker
might be ah around 10 levels or a bit more. So six chapters would be a great number. And yes, it's more about the scope of the game. And ah during the development, we found like we could have that many mechanics ah to make the game ah feel fun to play. so Yeah, but that's a good number. like If we have more chapters, I mean, we have more mechanics in our pool to to be added.
00:20:11
Speaker
ah we We do have an update plan of this game. We might ah have more chapters later, but six chapters we think is a good number so for for the like ah for the game launch and if we try to have more chapters then development periods would be much longer.
00:20:32
Speaker
That's not what want to see for the for for this game. Is the fact that there are six areas the reason that it's six dollars or is that just a coincidence? a ah It's a coincidence, but for the pricing, I think it's in the market, the scope and quality of the puzzle games. We have like been like browsing and playing lots of puzzle games, and I would say it's it's like an average price for these small puzzle games.
00:21:11
Speaker
ah Earlier we were talking about edge cases. Are there any edge cases from Keycoses Apple Adventure that you think would be like interesting to like talk about? would say there are many.
00:21:26
Speaker
edge cases in the game. would say like in the fifth chapter, the Groundhog mechanics have lots of edge cases because it was connected to all the other mechanics. But ah I don't want to spoil too much for it, but I could talk about the edge case that shows up earlier in the game. So it's ah about the grass box.
00:21:54
Speaker
ah which could you could push it into the water and make it into a new land tile and also there are portals like whirlpools they work as portals on the water in the second chapter introduced in the second chapter. So one edge case would be what if you push this grass box onto the whirlpool in the water, right?
00:22:22
Speaker
So, I mean, the those two, like, mechanics are common in other puzzle games, but we try to make this edge case or interactions fun to experience or explore.
00:22:38
Speaker
So the final solution is if you push the grass box to cover the whirlpool, ah So the portals would speed break and the the the whirlpool covered by the grass box will disappear and there will be only one whirlpool ah left in the sea, in the in in the water.
00:23:00
Speaker
and So it's not a like teleporting mechanic anymore, but when you drive um the not drive like ah drive your raft and the left ah whirlpool you will stop at there.
00:23:16
Speaker
So you could change the direction. It's like a ah stop in the water. And also it works for the shark, the creature in the sea.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's add some depth to the game and the level design. And I really like it because it's something we discovered for two very common mechanics.
00:23:43
Speaker
But by combining them ah to define the edge cases, it could showcase something new to the player the maybe they have never seen or rarely seen in other games.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah, i i love that moment where you can like take two unrelated mechanics and have them combine to do something that's like a bit different to either of them. um Do you have any questions for us?
Challenges and Advice for Puzzle Game Designers
00:24:09
Speaker
Oh, yes, I do. So I think many designers, they really love puzzle games and love making puzzle games. But this puzzle market is not hard to, I mean, it's it's not easy to make money compared to other genres. But Jack Nick, as a like as a studio, puzzle a studio is quite successful. So do you have any suggestions for the new puzzle designers, like how to keep making puzzle games in a sustainable way so they could survive and don't know, just to to to survive in the market and keep making puzzle games?
00:24:57
Speaker
The ah glib answer is to invent a time machine, go back and ah start releasing games in 2013. There are more practical answers, but unfortunately, no no silver bullet.
00:25:12
Speaker
i mean, i do think, like... One of our strengths is consistency, and we've been able to build up that consistency by having got our start a while back, but it wasn't until the fourth game that Dracnek released that we built something that like was able to find a particularly wide audience outside of like the core uh like i feel like our first games were played by like puzzle game sickos and other indie game developers but they but by making those games i was building up the ah the experience uh to and and the reputation with the people who who did
00:25:53
Speaker
who who were aware of those games, that when we made something that was more ah wide audience appropriate, that was a really good starting point for people to start spreading the word about it.
00:26:05
Speaker
like it It feels very much more like a ah marathon than a sprint. every Hopefully every game you make will be a little bit better, will be um find like a little bit more of an audience better.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. ah So you mentioned the time machine. I guess you mean that the market back to 10 years ago was much easier for the... Yes.
00:26:33
Speaker
Oh, so sorry. It was... it when you If you're releasing a game on Steam in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, there's probably five other games coming out that week on Steam. Maybe like 10.
00:26:44
Speaker
ah there's probably only five other games coming out that week on steam maybe like ten So your game is visible, just like objectively your game is visible. People can see what it is. People are interested in getting more games on Steam.
00:27:01
Speaker
The appetite for games on Steam has remained about the same, but the volume of games has grown exponentially, which means that – For anyone, including studios that have been putting games out for over a decade like Draknek, it is riskier to release a game in 2025 than it was in 2013.
00:27:23
Speaker
The other thing I guess I'd say is that I think um it's possible to have like really high standards for yourself or like really high, like, okay, well I'm going to make a game and it's going to be the the best game.
00:27:38
Speaker
i've I've ever made. And I think that it's possible to like focus on like polishing the thing you're currently working on when um actually you haven't proved out like that people are particularly excited for that game specifically.
00:27:58
Speaker
um so I think ah like the the most important thing you can do for marketing your game is to choose to write, make the right game.
00:28:10
Speaker
And so I think just, just having a lot of small prototypes to, to choose from, to be able to go like, ah, well, out of, out of these 10 games I've made in last while, like these are the ones that resonated with people, um, particularly,
00:28:28
Speaker
um I think i think it can it can take a long time to find the right idea that has the right potential to find an audience.
00:28:39
Speaker
And so by by that metric, it is um by by the point that you have spent six months um making something, polishing it, announcing it, um you you're kind of too late to pivot and make something else.
00:28:58
Speaker
and so finding ways to get feedback on what you're making really early or to make a bunch of things and have low low expectations of them um but just release them into small communities and then um have like a bit of a distance so you can then go like oh okay like in hindsight like at the time i was really excited about x but six months down the line actually the ones that really stuck in my brain is this other game Rather than going like, okay, well, I'm going to start a project, then I'm going to have to polish it for a while, then I'm going to announce it, then I'm going to have to finish it, then I'm going to release it. Being been more selective about which projects get to get that full development.
00:29:42
Speaker
And that's easier said than done. I don't think I know any game developers who are amazing at killing their darlings and going like, okay, well, I spent a month on this, but no, well, that's not true. I do know developers who do that.
00:29:54
Speaker
um But it you you there's not a lot of examples of seeing people who um work on a lot of things and then don't take them very far because it generally happens behind closed doors.
00:30:07
Speaker
Yes, thank you. And I totally totally agree with that. That you need to choose the right game to make. Because I found like for most puzzle games, it's just hard to make players excited in a really short time ah by a trailer or video.
00:30:29
Speaker
like But ah for other genres, like ah games with combat elements, it's just so easy to like with all the particle effects the animations the sounds ah it's much easier to make players more excited and want to play that game but for most puzzle games would say it's especially for the ah abstract puzzle games it's more about the the numbers the states change so it's not that ah visually appealing or
00:31:05
Speaker
I'm not saying that the graphics quality, but the mechanics is not that visually or dynamically to make players want to really ah see something unique or want to play the game. But I think ah there are games like ah Patrick's Powerbox and also Bubba ECU. They are really good examples.
00:31:32
Speaker
ah I mean, they are really good examples of marketable puzzle games or easily marketing puzzle games because their core mechanics is is really like ah unique and visually different. like They're both soccer-band games or block-pushing games, but it also gives players some fantasy imagination. Like you could push a box into another box and also you could change the rules.
00:32:00
Speaker
like It's very directly visual feedback, but in in many other puzzle games they don't have this this part, so I guess...
00:32:11
Speaker
um That's why they are not that easy to market as other game jaras. yes so so Yeah, I get what you mean. to To choose the right idea is maybe the most important thing and the easiest way to make your puzzle game sell.
00:32:32
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree that like those examples of ah Patrick's Power Box in Bar With You, like you can see that um like even in a GIF, they are really intriguing and captivating.
00:32:44
Speaker
And that's like a real strength of them. And... Yeah, like it like that's a really high bar. um And yeah, if you're making a puzzle game that is not that exciting to look at in a GIF, then you are playing on hard mode.
00:33:00
Speaker
But also, i think to some degree, like even very actiony games, non-puzzle games, even for them, the best marketing they have is like the game itself a lot of the time.
00:33:13
Speaker
um like they They might be able to like be a bit more enticing with a trailer, but like when it comes down to you is this game going to um be appealing to people? Are people going to be excited to play this?
00:33:27
Speaker
A lot of this these days does seem to come down to, like okay, well, you've got to drop a demo at some point and like people got to be excited by that demo. Gameplay is more important than than visuals um a lot of the time.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yes, yes, that's that's very true. Thanks for the like answer and all the suggestions about making puzzle games.
Opportunities and Podcast Conclusion
00:33:52
Speaker
ah Before we wrap up, Lucas, how did you hear about the Dracnet New Voices puzzle grant? I...
00:34:03
Speaker
might saw it somewhere on social media, bo Sky or Twitter, I don't remember. But I know this grant like several years ago, ah maybe two years ago. So I i knew there was like the 2022 and eight twenty two Puzzle Grant, New Voices Puzzle Grant, but when I found it, it was too late to apply. Yeah, and last year i saw the news on Twitter or Blue Sky, so I thought this was a great, really great opportunity and I applied for that. so
00:34:39
Speaker
Also, like I think I know a developer who got the previous puzzle grants in 2022. Yeah, that's also why I knew this puzzle grant.
00:34:54
Speaker
Which developer? Alia. The game was Alia. So it's ah it a game about the mirror. Yeah, a girl and the mirror. yep Awesome.
00:35:06
Speaker
Well, thank you so much again for joining us and chatting about your time making puzzle games and Kiko's Apple Adventure. Where can people find you? I would say Blue Sky Pawpaw Games Discord. So you could find the link on the the Steam page of the Kiko's Apple Adventure. Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us. It's been a pleasure.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you for listening to the Dracnic and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp.com.
00:35:46
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
00:36:04
Speaker
so