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Bonus Episode: YagmanX interviews Draknek
232 Plays1 month ago
In this bonus episode, YagmanX interviews Draknek! Please note that this interview originally happened in early 2024.
You can watch the original video upload here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9-5FyKJOM
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Transcript
Introduction to Special Episode
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Dragneck and Friends official podcast where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren, the producer at Dragneck and Friends, but Alan is not here today. This is a special bonus episode with permission from Yagman X,
00:00:37
Speaker
who interviewed Alan last year in 2024 about the development history of Draknic at Friends and a monster's expedition. We are now able to cross post that interview for your listening pleasure. There will be no normally scheduled episode this week, but we'll tune in next week for an incredibly special episode.
00:01:01
Speaker
Like seriously, you will not want to miss it. Keep your eyes peeled to Draknek Socials for information on why. With that said, I'm going to get out of your way. Please enjoy the episode. The interview is fantastic. Thank you again to Yagmen X for your gracious permission and allowing us to run the interview on our podcast feed.
Alan Hazilden's Game Development Journey
00:01:30
Speaker
Today we have a very exciting game dev interview, and we're doing it as part of the cerebral puzzle showcase. We're going to be talking about how to make puzzle games, and I'm very excited to be talking to Alan Hazilden, a puzzle game director and designer. Hello. Hello, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for coming. Yeah, my pleasure. yeah So if you could just start off by introducing yourself.
00:02:03
Speaker
ah So I'm Alan Hazleton. I've been making puzzle games for over a decade now Under the name drag neck. So I've run a small studio drag naked friends um We make and publish puzzle games so Chronologically the games I've worked on have been soccer bond a good snow and it's hard to build cosmic Express a good snow and it's hard to I've already said the good stuff. A monster's expedition. And then I published Bonfire Peaks, Sock Wand Express. We published the console ports of Patrick's Powerbox. And we're currently publishing the upcoming lock digital.
00:02:47
Speaker
So just a couple of things then. Just a couple. Across the decades, so you know. i Yeah, we played a a Monsters Expedition. I'm sure some people in the chat will remember and we had a really good time playing your game. ah So yeah, that was good fun. and So you said across a decade, so is that how long you've been developing games for or is it a bit longer than that?
00:03:13
Speaker
I've been making games a bit longer, um I guess I started in 2016? in No, 2006. So coming up on 20 years, I guess, that's scary. But for a long time it was just like small hobbyist stuff, like not not actually making anything good, originally more interested in the technical side than the creative side.
00:03:36
Speaker
um So i've I've shifted focus a little bit over time, but yeah, last decade and he has Jack Nick and friends making puzzle games, focusing on puzzle games. Interesting. So you say you were coming from the more technical side. um I wonder where you were you look at more of a programming type but before you came a designer then?
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah, I was studying computer science. Eventually, I completely burnt out on programming, but that's that's kind of like the the thing that got me into it. And then over a few years, I would like shift from like being mostly interested in the programming side to going, oh, well, but like making games is fun, too, to, like oh, no, like I care about the creative side, and I don't want to program any more than I need to.
00:04:22
Speaker
Oh, that's interesting. Is that how you would say that you learned the skills that you needed to develop games? you went to Do you say you went to university? Yeah, I was studying computer science at university. Yeah, I mean, so there was a game design society at the university I went to, actually. So that was that was the in, like, there's a lot of great people there. It's a great vibe and, like, lots of very supportive people helping each other learn skills um and the like. um And yeah, I kind of just cut my teeth by making a lot of tiny, bad games. Always fun. Has to be done, though.
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah, you can only you can only learn by failing. What kind of got you involved? I want to know why did you go to university to study programming for games? Well, I didn't study games programming. I was just generally studying programming comp sci.
00:05:19
Speaker
I mean, I was already interested in programming. I was using Linux. I was making websites. I was using i programming in Perl. So like going going to study computer science was kind of like the next logical step. It wasn't like, oh yes, I'm super excited about um becoming a web developer, which is what I went on to do after graduating. But it was more just like, oh, I like programming. This will probably be interesting and it will probably be a sensible thing to do at this stage of my life.
00:05:49
Speaker
um So you went from uni to web web programming or web developing and then how did you get into games from there?
Transition to Full-Time Game Development
00:06:01
Speaker
yeah I picked up games at university before as a professional web developer but it was just like a part-time hobbyist thing um and like I guess the way I transitioned to making games as like a priority was just not enjoying web development and in like finding game development way more creatively fulfilling. um And so i was I was not having a good time at my my day job. um And I actually, my friend, won a trip to Florida
00:06:36
Speaker
And it was like a month before the Game Developers Conference was happening on the other side of the States. And so I was like, well, I've met a lot of people in the UK. They say GDC is a great time. um I guess I could either just take this free trip to Florida and then come back to my day job. Or I could quit my day job and go take this trip that has free flights.
00:06:56
Speaker
and then also go to GDC. And I figured I would just make games until I ran out of money. Like I i was not trying to make games professionally at that point. yeah I was always part way through making what would be my first big commercial project, Succobland.
00:07:14
Speaker
um And I think at that point I was planning to sell it, but I didn't have an expectation that selling it would give me enough to live off. um But I figured I had savings, I could focus on that, finish it up, release it, and even if it made no money, I would be able to live off savings for a while, maybe make another game. And in the end I managed to live frugally and like extend my runway bit by bit and Yeah, instead of making games until I run out of money, I just kept making games. Wow. It's initially very much like, oh, I'm making this as a creative thing and it's not a business. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess you took a shot. You just took a chance and step by step, day by day, month by month, just saw what could happen. That's quite inspiring. Thanks for showing that with us.
00:08:09
Speaker
You've already talked to us about some of the games that you've made, but is there one or a couple that you're extremely proud of, and why is that?
A Monster's Expedition and Team Introduction
00:08:17
Speaker
yeah I mean ah the the one that's probably like burned out the best and like I feel like it's like really approachable and great and like I was like oh if you want to play one game from me it's like the best quality bar that I can hear. I think Monster's Expedition is is it. I know you played it earlier this week. Yeah like it was a it was a rough development it took like three and a half years and a lot of that was was like
00:08:45
Speaker
Not smooth, but like the end product I think turned out really great. I think it was really trying with that game to make something that could be playable and be the perfect difficulty level for just about anyone. And I think we almost hit that. like You can enjoy that game even if you're a puzzle novice and you can enjoy that game even if you really really like really hard puzzles and It will kind of self direct you to where whatever difficulty puzzles you feel comfortable with And hopefully anybody can get to the end of it But if you want hard of challenges, there's there's a lot there buried on the the surface in the secrets Yeah, super proud of how it turned out Yeah, I would say you' definitely um yeah you've managed to achieve with that because we were talking before the stream. I'm not usually a puzzle player and I thought I wouldn't do very well but I seem to be breezing through it at not ah at an easy pace. I definitely got stuck on a few times and chat had to help me out so thanks chat. I think what I loved about that game so much playing it was you had um
00:09:55
Speaker
hidden areas that you would just organically find um by like understanding new mechanics like pushing off the rocks or you know doing sometimes I would do something I wasn't even aware of and then all of a sudden I'd find a whole new area of the map and oh gosh I i love that it seemed like such a small little place at the beginning and then so yeah you you did a very good job with that game um sorry to hear about the rough development but yeah you you nailed it at the end so that's something You've already talked a little bit about Dragneck and Friends, but can you tell us a bit more about what Dragneck and Friends is? Who you are? Yeah, so right now it's ah three people. There's me and then two other people who are part-time. So I've got Seren, who's the producer at Dragneck. She's been on board since the tell-end of Monster Expedition development.
00:10:48
Speaker
um and she helps with a lot of the practical stuff like getting games localised and getting games on consoles and dealing with all the bureaucracy there. And then we've also got Mary Nolan. um Since the last couple of months she's come on and she's the studio manager and so she's helping with a lot of the other bureaucracy. She's been a great asset with Cerebral Puzzle Showcase um like it would not have happened this year if she hadn't been around to help make it happen um uh but yeah so it's just the three of us um we try and punch above our weight in terms of like
00:11:27
Speaker
like making games and publishing games that it's not obvious that we're such a small team. um We focus on puzzle games. um be like It started as just the games that I've been involved with but then started publishing other people's games um mostly just because I felt like So occasionally there'll be a game that grabs my attention and is like, oh, this is really special. And like it's really hard to market games. It's really hard to but market puzzle games specifically. but
00:11:58
Speaker
I've built up a bit of a, of people who've like no Dragneck and will pay attention to something if we've got the Dragneck now on it. And so by by partnering up with some really talented developers, we can hopefully get their games more attention than they would have done otherwise. The first game that we published, Bonfire Peaks, made by Corey Martin, it's a great level game about picking up boxes and shifting them around and trying to burn them in a fire each level.
00:12:27
Speaker
um The back game came on and we were like, oh, yeah, let's let's publish this game. And by the end of that game, I had actually ended up doing a lot of the level design on that project because I really enjoy level design. it It kind of shifted me from me going like, hey, Cory, what about this? What about that? To just us collaborating on the level design. chip not how publishing relationships generally go and isn't really sustainable for like a team that wants to publish a lot of things all at the same time but we can just focus on one game at a time and yeah give it what it needs. Yeah yeah definitely it sounds way more of like um
00:13:08
Speaker
I guess like an intimate kind of hands-on experience than just like, here's money, do the thing, see you when it's done. Which is quite awesome. And the the flip side of it is that ah our games aren't financially sustainable enough that we can throw money at people. um Like some of the games we publish have just been support and no funding. um Like we pay for marketing, we pay for for like if there's a visual art overhaul, we'd cover that. but um We can't pay for a developer or a team of developers to work on a project full time for two years. It kind of feels like, oh no, we're we're just making this together and you're going to make the game and we're going to help you market the game.
00:13:52
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, and that also is, that's really helpful, especially to an indie developer who might be working solo or just with like two people, because marketing is a whole beast and that takes so much time away from development. So even just having, um you know, being able to pass that off to drag neck and friends, I'm sure is extremely useful for them.
00:14:14
Speaker
What made you want to start publishing games?
Publishing at Dragneck and Friends
00:14:17
Speaker
like When was the moment when you were like, ah making my own games has been fun, but I'd love to like branch out and and see if I can help others.
00:14:26
Speaker
I mean, it was never really a conscious thing. It was literally like I was just chatting to Corey, the developer of Bonsai Peaks, and I was telling him, like, hey, this game is good. You should you should pitch this game to some publishers. And like I sent him a short list of like publishers he should talk to. And then at the end, I was like, well, but also also me, maybe. i don't I don't know what I'd be doing. I can't i can't promise to do a good job of it, but um I knew that I believed in the game. um And it it was just before we'd released A Monster's Expedition. um I didn't really have time to be thinking about like publishing something, of like because we were still in the weeds of ah finishing that game. But it was just like, oh, well, I i think this game could be good. I think that it could help.
00:15:17
Speaker
like like that that the direct name name would mean something to and people who were fans of my games would be a fan of his game and so it was less that I was like oh I want to become a publisher or like oh I want to to to shift my focus in this direction and more just like oh man this game is good I wish it could get more visibility I guess I could try help with that Yeah, so it's ah it's very organic. I mean, it sounds like the same way that you got into game from web web stuff, it's very organic, just step by step. Okay, yeah, I can see this. Makes sense. What do you look for when you when you look for games that you want to help publish? Is it something, I don't know, do you actually go out and do that or or do you just wait for these conversations to happen with people that you know?
00:16:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've never been in a situation where I'm like, oh, we really need to find a game for Dragneck to publish. um It's always just been chatting to developers who I already know who, and then something at the back of my mind would go, this game could be perfect.
00:16:23
Speaker
um yeah Yeah, I've already talked about how it went with Bonfire Peaks, or Sockabond Express. um That's actually a really weird story. So I made a game called Sockabond, and I made a game called Cosmic Express. And then back in, like, twenty 19 2020 um I somebody just posted a link to an itch game a game on itch and I played it I was like oh this is really cool and it's riffing off those two games that I made and uh it was a developer I was already aware of um he'd made um some some cool games I was like oh this is really cool I could see how you could expand this game and so I just sent him a DM saying like hey this game is really cool I It's a blend of my games, but in a way that I would never have thought to combine them myself. um And I like, hey, have you ever thought about making this into a bigger project? And so, yeah, like, we were just like, he was like, oh, well, I thought about it, but I don't know if I could justify spending all the time on it. So okay, well, let's let's talk and see if we can make it worth the time.
00:17:32
Speaker
um So like that's the thing where like any anybody else posting a jam game is not going to go anywhere, but because I happened to see it and because it was specifically riffing on my previous games that I responded to it to it in such a, man, I wish I'd thought of this way. It's just like, OK, let's try and make this bigger.
00:17:54
Speaker
it's kind of like it's nothing tangible it's nothing like oh well they these are the three things you need to be published by drag act it's more like just be in the right place at the right time have a great game and uh yeah and a game that that um resonates with you and the type of games that you make uh the type of puzzle games that you make Yeah, exactly, yeah. And also I think one of the things, so how you you picked up that game on itch, like it's so important to just make your game visible somewhere, even if it's itch, like it doesn't have to be Steam, um because you never know who could who could see that game. um Yeah, that sounds good. um But let's talk about puzzles.
Puzzle Design Philosophy and Tools
00:18:36
Speaker
So I want to know what drew you toward creating puzzle games specifically?
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, um so it wasn't really a conscious thing, um ah but like I'd made several small puzzle games for for Game Jams, um ah my my first big commercial game, Suckbond was a puzzle game, um and then after Suckbond finished, I kind of burnt out on programming, like I was the but if I did off the puzzle design for that game, but I did all of the programming. um And it kind of just burns out on programming. But it was around the same time that Stephen LaValle released a tool called Puzzle Script. um It's still available. It's at puzzlescripts.net. um It's a free web-based tool for making grid-based puzzle games. And it's a tool that you can use, and it doesn't feel like programming. um It's kind of just like,
00:19:33
Speaker
a bunch of find and replace ah rules. It's kind of like visual scripting maybe? It's not visual. it's It is text, but it's a very visual type. It's very simple. like A line of text, a rule of the the game will be find this situation and replace it with this situation. Okay. So it's not visual, but it kind of could be.
00:19:56
Speaker
Um, and I just had a really, really good time making games in public script. Um, I, I would like make them in like a couple of days or a week or a month. And over the course of like a year or two, I made like a dozen nice small free other games with that tool. Um.
00:20:18
Speaker
And it was kind of a self-perpetuating thing of the more I used puzzle script, the better I got at puzzle script design and the kind of puzzle design that would fit into that space. um And so I got better at that, and then it was like, oh, well, I'm only having the kind of ideas that could be made in puzzle script. But that was a tool that just let me make a lot of things and level up my skills in that area very quickly. Got you.
00:20:46
Speaker
So I wonder did you play a lot of puzzle games as well because it sounds like you just kind of you fell into this the puzzle script um like way of making games and obviously that was designed for puzzle games but were you also an enjoyer of puzzle games as well at the time?
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, i would have I would have enjoyed a lot of puzzle games. Like, I don't have a strong memory of like, oh, what are the games I was playing back then? um I definitely would have been playing a lot of games made in puzzle scripts. Like, especially at the start of that tool, there was a lot of games being made. So you could have, like, there still are, there's still a ton of games being made with puzzle scripts, but like, especially in that first period, it was like really, really thriving.
00:21:26
Speaker
um And so I would have been playing those. But yeah, I would have been playing commercial puzzle games as well. Yeah. um Like Stephen LaValle who made puzzle scripts also made Stephen Sausage Roll, which is a very well regarded, very, very hardcore puzzle game.
00:21:42
Speaker
um
00:21:45
Speaker
Yeah, like there's there's always been puzzle games that have resonated with me. I don't know if I would have appreciated that the time, like, oh, it was never a conscious realisation of like, oh, I enjoy playing this kind of game. So I might make, enjoy making them. It was much more natural. yeah But like, I'm i'm sure that that was in the mix. Gotcha. Gotcha. This is the big question. What makes a puzzle mechanic fun?
00:22:12
Speaker
That's a big one. So, um, I think part of it is, um, I think a large part of it can be surprised. like like um if if you If you completely understood something, then it kind of wouldn't be interesting. ah Something that happens in a lot of good public games is you'll do something with kind of an expectation of how it's going to happen, and then it will play out slightly differently. or or it will be a space where you're like, oh, well, like I understand everything. like I understand what I'm trying to do, but it's it's impossible for this reason. um And then you're you're batting your head against, like well, like here's a specific reason why this puzzle seems impossible. like ah How can this possibly work? And then when you put the pieces in the right place to go, oh, but what if I did that? And then that would let me do that.
00:23:07
Speaker
and you can have that realization. um So that that that level of being able to figure things out and feel smart is ah is another part of it. In terms of like puzzles generally, um yeah I think surprise and making you feel smart and um making you making you use your brain rather than just letting you breathe through something. like I think a lot of very, very simple puzzle games that are more casual than the ones I like playing are just like if you need dopamine for like, hey, you solved the puzzle, you solved the puzzle, you solved the puzzle. And a lot of the games I like generally ah like gives you much more places to to stop at and like go like, oh, you you you need to need to actually think to make progress. yeah um And that is more opportunities for people to fall off, but I think it makes it feel more special when you you don't you don't drop off and you go like, no, I am gonna solve this.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm like, as you're saying that, I'm just thinking about my experience with um a monster's expedition. Definitely felt that way. um How do you know when a puzzle isn't fun or well, when a puzzle mechanic isn't fun and perhaps when you need to scrap it, go back to the drawing board or make some significant changes?
The Role of Playtesting in Game Development
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of the time that comes down to play testing. Like I,
00:24:35
Speaker
in In some ways, I'm only good at making other games because I spent a lot of time watching people playtest my games and like internalizing a hypothetical player, like like either because I'm watching them right there and I can see the the things they're doing, or hopefully with a game after I've been making it for long enough I can kind of have this sense of like oh like this is kind of the logic that a person is going to go through this is the assumptions they're going to make this is how they're going this is the thing they're going to try first this is what I want to happen after that um
00:25:12
Speaker
But like you can only develop that intuition after you've gone through it with real people time and time again. um So yeah, I just play testing. Play testing without like giving people answers. like like If they say, like hey, give me a hint on this one. You have to like be be really strict and go, no, i'm I'm not here. like i'm I'm watching you. and if like i'm i'm I'm taking a lot of notes but I'm not going to tell you anything because I need to like if if something is too hard um then I need to have the emotional experience of watching a player
00:25:51
Speaker
find it too hard and get frustrated and have a not fun time because that's going to stick in my brain. If somebody gets stuck for five minutes and then I tell them the solution, it's going to be better for that play tester, but it's not going to be lodged in my brain as like, oh no, this is terrible. I really need to fix this. I need to, like this level is bad. I need to improve it. Or like, oh, this, ah like a lot a lot of the time with puzzle games, things I'm looking out for in play testing is What do they understand and what do they have they not quite internalized? What do I need to repeat and reinforce so that it becomes second nature? um what What puzzles are just kind of like too awkward or ah or don't have a good enough
00:26:44
Speaker
central focus to get your hook hooks into and to think like oh like this is the core of this puzzle if it's just a bunch of pieces spread out on the board and you're like not really having any kind of logic about what does what or why things are placed where they are then it's not a lot of the time it can be not very engaging to to try and solve so yeah trying to trying to figure out like why somebody is having a good time with the puzzle or why somebody is not having a good but time with the puzzle and then going like, okay, well, can i can I move this puzzle later? Or do I need to add another puzzle before this to really reinforce the thing you need to do? Like it might be there's a mechanic I've taught earlier in the game, and then later in the game, it's been a while since they had to use that specific trick. um And ah it might be like, oh, well, I need to have another puzzle that uses that trick.
00:27:36
Speaker
but that uses that trick in a way that will bring that trick to the forefront of your mind so that when you're doing the next puzzle it is still in your active brain and you can think in that way. ah Yeah.
00:27:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah but that makes sense. And I guess the the biggest thing is just play test. Get someone else to play test the game because it's got to be really difficult when you are the person who's made the puzzles. You know how to do everything. you can't really You're not a reliable ah source of feedback. so the the The other thing I get after playtesting is a lot of the time, the things that people will try will spark ideas for me for other puzzles. um i will I will look at somebody and I'll go, well, that's not the solution, but ooh, what if that was the solution? Unlike a a sign of a promising puzzle game is when I can playtest three levels and come away with ideas for 10. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.
00:28:36
Speaker
and it makes me ask, where do you start when you are developing a ah puzzle mechanic? What's your usual starting place? ah Usually I will start with some kind of i more metaphor or setting, or the game that gives me something concrete that i I know the game is about. um So for a monster expedition, the original idea was just like, oh, like this shape of a cylinder that can be pushed end on end or along one axis, but on the other axis it can roll. um like that's That felt like, oh, there's something there. like I was thinking, like oh, are these are they are these barrels?
00:29:19
Speaker
Um, uh, but like that, that shape. And then I was chatting to Benjamin Davis, who I'd made several other games with at that point. He was like, oh, what about trees? What about, what about logs? And so, and, and we were also, actually it happened both ways, I guess. I was, I had the idea of that shape as an interesting shape.
00:29:38
Speaker
and then we would talk about like oh let's make a game that's set on some islands because islands have like there's watery areas between them i'd already made a couple of puzzle good games which were set on islands and water and they had it felt like there was more ground for exploration there and it felt like oh you can you can be exploring a space and that's that's satisfying so okay islands like trees uh that shape of the logs And then I was like, okay, well this game is about islands and trees and logs. And at that point, it's like a very concrete metaphor for this game. And I can think of it very physically.
00:30:15
Speaker
Like, okay, what would happen when this log, which is oriented in this way, interacts with this log, which is oriented in another way? And I would just like play it out in my head, like, okay, well, what do I expect to happen? If I've got a log that is upright and something rolls into it, I would expect that the thing that rolls into it stops there and the log that was upright falls over. um And...
00:30:42
Speaker
Having that physicality, let me think about that game and think about the edge cases of that game um in a very practical way. It wasn't that I was coming up with this perfect set of puzzle mechanics and then trying to find a theme that matched them. um It was um much like the the the world and the setting came first and and like the the pieces came first and then what they do when they interact is based on what they are i try i try and
00:31:14
Speaker
use the ah theme of the game as this primary thing. And if I can answer design questions of like what should happen in this specific instance by going back to like thinking about what the gameplay elements I have are, then I think that makes it easier to design, but it also makes it easier for players to understand what's going on and for them to onboard into the game.
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like it would be it would it would be a really good way of keeping the game nice and cohesive and in like a ah wide ofwe array of um ah things as well, like the narrative too. um Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if you could share with us um any, maybe you've made mistakes in the past, of course you have, everyone has, ah when designing puzzles, but perhaps any mistakes that you made more than once or that you've noticed other, um ah puzzle designers make, what could you share with us? Yeah I mean I think it's a a mistake it's very easy to make with puzzle games is to make it too hard or too obtuse and like feel like oh wow this this puzzle is amazing it's got so many moving parts it's great and then when players ah start interacting with it um
00:32:32
Speaker
then they just bounce off because you've made something that's just too hard, too convoluted. yeah um And so trying to constantly be coming back to like, okay, what what's the play experience? like what well how do i How do I make this more approachable? um What are the things I need to teach better? What are the things I need to reinforce? um What is the most challenging and the most rewarding part of designing puzzle games for you?
Rewards and Advice for Aspiring Designers
00:33:02
Speaker
I mean the most rewarding part is just getting and to watch people play them. um Like finish finishing something, having it out in the world and having it be a good thing that people react well to, that people get enjoyment from, um that people... um and have the experience I want them to have with. um It's just a delight. If I could just skip from the start to the end of a project in in the snap of fingers, that would be that would be fantastic. I guess one of the things that I have never done a great job is marketing them and like it's not my happy place and so it's something that like a very common story with with indie game development it's like oh I'm enjoying making this game I'm not enjoying marketing this game so I'm just gonna make it and I'll forget about that that side. It's been tricky now I've pivoted to doing more publishing where with a game that I'm making it's kind of fine to just make it and go like well I'm just making this for me and it's fine if it doesn't find a really big audience.
00:34:06
Speaker
but when I'm helping other people with their games, you can't really make the same trade-off because like it didn't they didn't agree to having you half-assed the marketing side. and It's still not really drank strength, but i think I think we're getting better at it.
00:34:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Cerebral puzzle Puzzle Showcase is also definitely helping with marketing as well. So yeah, I think you're doing pretty well. I mean, I feel like Cerebral Puzzle Showcase, um its goal is to push puzzle games generally not to sell copies of our own games or to build up our own statue. I feel like it does a good job of building up a profile with other indie devs.
00:34:47
Speaker
I feel like most people who are just looking at Steam and going, oh, here's a puzzle showcase. They aren't really paying attention to who's organizing it. And that's fine. Like, that's not really what we're we're trying to do um with it. It's pretty good puzzle showcase. It's really just like, hey, there's so many good games that like a lot of people on Steam don't identify as puzzle fans, but like would play a puzzle game. Well, I have played many puzzle games. I just don't identify them as puzzle games. um And so having a event on Steam where we can show a bunch of games and it includes Outer Wilds and it includes a Storyteller and it includes um Viewfinder um and... Samirosst. And Samirosst.
00:35:32
Speaker
um and have them go like, oh, well, I liked all of those games individually. Oh, is there a 3.1 in there? um I think it's very valuable. um And the next question is, do you have any overall tips for any developers who want to improve their puzzle design skills?
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah I mean primarily just make a lot of puzzle games. Like I i vouch for puzzle scripts like forever and ever and ever. um Like it lets me make small puzzle games and just iterate quickly and make a puzzle game and release it and make a puzzle game and release it. So yeah just like make a lot of stuff quickly rather than trying to make your magnum opus.
00:36:17
Speaker
um And then join the puzzle community. So I run a a Discord called ThinkyPuzzleGames. You can find that at ThinkyPuzzleGames.com I think will we redirect you to the Discord. so um There's also ThinkyGames dot.com which is run by some friends which they have their own community. um So yeah, but like, if you're if you're interested in making this kind of thinky puzzle game, or if you think you might be interested, then join the community and play some other people's stuff, share what you're working on. And like, it's a community where you can post something that's in development and people can tell you like, oh, like what about this? What about that? And help you make your game better.
00:37:10
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's really useful. ah It's definitely useful to be able to like play other people's games that will inspire you as well. And then getting feedback is, like you said, with the just getting other people's feedback, ah a lot of people might not know how to get feedback or might not know um maybe their family won't want to play or whatever. So yeah, that's like that's a good point. They can go and check out your Discord. Where can we find you? I know you've already talked about um your Discord. Is there anywhere else?
Upcoming Projects and Events
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean you can find me on various social medias, but if you go to dragneck dot.org then that's a site for all of my puzzle games and that's got links to social media there too. um In terms of things I want to plug, um the next game we're publishing is called Lock Digital. l o k digital It's really great, really smart. um Please check it out. There's a free demo on Steam right now. um There'll be more news for that game soon. Very excited for it. It's very smart in a way that's kind of different to the other games that I've made and published. um But yeah, very, very good game there.
00:38:27
Speaker
um Check out three ball puzzle showcase um if you go to three ball puzzle showcase comm that will take you to where you need to go there's so many great games on Steam right now, but the discounted and You will not go wrong if you just go to the Intel and Just put half a dozen things in your in your basket I agree, I agree. There are so many good games there. Thank you so much Alan for chatting to us today. It's been so amazing hearing all of your your life's journey for how you started making puzzle games and I can see a theme. You obviously just like go ah towards what feels good for you and you don't think about it too much, you're just like
00:39:13
Speaker
Today, this is good for me, and we'll see what happens tomorrow. And it looks easy working out for you. It seems good. It's very inspiring, actually. um So yeah, thank you. I appreciate you sharing this all with us. Oh, thanks for your time. This was great. Yeah, thank you. All the chat is saying goodbye as well. So yeah, if you want to say goodbye to the chat, and then you can hop off the call as well, then ah and feel free. And I hope you have a nice rest of your day as well.
00:39:40
Speaker
yeah hi bye chat Thank you so much. I hope that was useful for you. I found it really, really insightful. And don't forget to check out thinkypuzzlegames.com and to check out all of the cool puzzle games at Cerebral Puzzle Showcase. there There's a lot of links for you to check out, but you know, you could do that. You could do that in your own time. Have a lovely day or evening. Bye-bye. See you later. Thanks for watching.
00:40:16
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Dragneck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp dot.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawodniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.